TheRPGSite

This article (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/F1891BC5-6D0C-4983-A153-C5DED87FE281.htm) about Dear Leader Kim Jong-il being denied his right to import iPod made me think of the good old Traveller-style trading game. I think it could be fun to do this in the modern day.

In our modern day, a lot of smuggling goes on. Not just drugs and guns, but all sorts of luxury goods, as well as raw materials like diamonds and coltan. And when you smuggle between two places, at least one of them is going to be some crazy confict-ridden place where the officials all require heavy bribes. So you could have some interesting adventures... the PCs have a ship, and travel the world with their pallet of iPods and AK-47s and zirconium tubes...  

Madness or genius? What do you reckon?

Genius!

There's more than enough crazy going on in the South China Sea for a lifetime's worth of pirates and smugglers.

It could also be fun in a "Layer Cake" way, looking at the lives of criminals up and down the food chain.  The PCs would see the fatcats who run the whole show and the burnouts who're in just to keep fed.

QuoteMadness or genius? What do you reckon?

Both, you BASTARD :D All of a sudden I'm getting a warm Wages of Fear, Air America and yeah maybe even a little Lord of War tingly sensation with a dash of Thank You for Smoking...

Regards,
David R

Hell yeah, all of SE Asia is practically the Spinward Main. This would be an interesting idea to see fleshed out a bit. Only difference - no "Imperium" ensuring order among all the worlds/nations. A total free-for all.

Quote from: WerekoalaHell yeah, all of SE Asia is practically the Spinward Main. This would be an interesting idea to see fleshed out a bit. Only difference - no "Imperium" ensuring order among all the worlds/nations. A total free-for all.

Hey, and don't forget pirates.  Lots of pirates.  An old friend of mine used to ship with the US Merchant Marines, and as he told it, the only time he ever got scared was on the run between the Red Sea and Taiwan.  In particular, rounding Malaysia past Indonesia, and into the South China Sea made him feel spooked even aboard a supertanker.

!i!

Could be fun and you could easily justify long (several to 7+ days) travel times (boat, slow prop plane, foot/rough terrain).

Ruleswise T20 breaks down the trade categories more than previous versions (except possibly GT's Far Trader which I don't have). There's a utility for it. Convert skills, ranks (4 T20 -> 1 CT/MT for example), etc. if using a different system.

TNE had some good ideas on barter/local value variation and GT: Starports has some great bits on ports, what goes on there, and moving lots of cargo.

Being modern you could also fold in as much current real life info as needed to taste.

(catching up on threads)

This is a brilliant concept.

RPGPundit

Yeah, more I think of it, more I like it.

Traveller in real life. There are many ways you could run it, too. You could run it

• shoot 'em up style, shoot up anyone who gets in your way, get piles of cash, then much-needed work on your ship in dodgy small ports in south Asia, complete with deals in smoky taverns with mysterious hooded strangers.
• Gritty realism style, complete with moral dilemmas - there's a starving land in Africa, and a warlord wants to buy food. So he'll use the food to save people's lives, but it'll increase his power base, and he's only going to feed one of the ethnic groups. Still, lives will be saved, and cash will be made.
• Firefly-style, not very gritty, but enough grit to give enough dilemmas to show the character's personalities - not enough dilemmas to make them feel bad, just enough to show who they are.

And so on. I'm sure others can think of more? Tell us!

I think that's a good setting, where you can play it in a variety of ways.

I might add it to the pitches for my run of campaigns in the new year. Of course, I would need to do research, types of ships and cost, etc. I wonder if tramp steamers have forty-year mortgages? :D

I think I kept the Twilight 2000 Bangkok: Cesspool of the Orient module for something like this in mind. It's written for both Twilight and Merc 2000 which makes it even more tweakable (for what if? or more plausible).

Of course, aircraft are another possibility. However, light aircraft can't carry much cargo, though they can land in obscure and quiet places. Heavy aircraft can carry quite a bit of cargo, but need long airstrips, which puts the characters in major airports. In general across the world, airport security is tight, seaport security is very lax. For some reason, the Western world is very concerned at one or two plane hijackings a year, but is relatively unconcerned about the hundreds of ships taken or raided by pirates, the millions of people and thousands of tonnes of drugs, arms, coltan, diamonds, etc etc smuggled about. So for the sort of dodgy - ie, "fun" - things PCs like to do, a ship seems best.

Ships come in several categories. I assume PCs wouldn't want a small yacht or the like, would want to be able to carry a few hundred tonnes of cargo, and the occasional passenger or few. So we're left with cargo ships. "Tankers" just take oil. "Reefers" are refrigerated ships for the obvious sorts of goods. "Container ships" take the standard containers. "Bulk carriers" take stuff like coal and grain. "General cargo ships" are for things which don't fit in containers well, nor can they be piled up - like coils of wire, uncut logs, etc. As far as I can tell, tankers tend to be the biggest (100,000 tonnes or more), then bulk carriers (75k-100kt), then container ships(25k-100kt), and general cargo ships are the smallest(500-15kt).

"Tramp freighters" still exist. That is, rather than say Toyota renting out a ship to take automobiles from Korea to the USA, and iron from the USA to Korea, on a steady run, the owner-captain sails around from port to port looking for cargo. Modern computerisation has meant that less ship's officers are needed - you don't need an engineering officer on watch in the engine rooms if you have enough dials and measures going up to the bridge. Extremely lax international standards of ship safety also means less officers than in the past.

A modern tramp freighter would of course have to be a "general cargo ship". Some photos of them can be found here (http://www.shipfoto.co.uk/General%20Cargo%20Photos.html). My favourite is the old Abdullah, 670 GWT, built in 1879. Not bad for over a century old,



Online there's a sort of ship's ebay, Ship Traders (http://www.shiptraders.com/index.php). It appears that ships are like cars - old clapped-out ones from dodgy people are 10% or less of the price of new well-constructed ones from reputable people. You can get a serviceable ship suitable for PCs for well under a million Euros.

It even lists a few warships!

I dig this.

I dig it a lot.

Whatever you do with this idea, you should update us on it as often as possible.

I'd go the local route. (And surely ships is the answer not planes ;))  Having the pcs play natives smugglers servicing the warlords/oppresive regime in the Firefly mode in your earlier post...untill it all gets to much and they scream ..."TONIGHT WE DINE IN HELL"...sorry, the influence of an upcoming movie is stronger than I first thought...

Regards,
David R

Possibly theres mileage in salvage and looking for sunken treasure?

There are shoestring companies who make their living from bringing up wrecks and selling them for scrap, and marine salvage can be big business:-

http://www.marine-salvage.com/overview/index.asp?page=history.htm

LOF is the most widely used “no cure-no pay” salvage contract. In return for salvage services, the salvor receives a proportion of the “salved value” (the value of the ship, its bunkers and cargo). Traditionally, reward depends upon success and the recovery of property. In the past, if there was no recovery, there was no payment, whatever the expense of the operation. This has changed in recent years, to reflect the public interest in prevention of damage to the environment. The salvor can now contract in such a way that he is shielded from loss when responding to high risk or low value casualties.

And don't miss the weekly piracy report!

http://www.icc-ccs.org/prc/piracyreport.php

ALERT

Chittagong anchorage, Bangladesh
Forty one incidents have been reported since 28.01.2006. Pirates are targeting ships preparing to anchor. Ships are advised to take extra precautions.

Oh, I forgot to say in my last post - the reason there being less ship's officers than in the past is significant, is that ships built in the 1970s and earlier would be built for the old number of officers (6-12), but around the 1990s, they'd only have around 3 officers. This leaves 3-9 largeish cabins on which you can take passengers.

People actually do take cruises on tramp freighters, paying around US$100 a day. I'm sure that among all the smuggling and piracy going on, there'll be the occasional person who'd like to disappear for a few weeks or months, then reappear in some foreign port, perhaps under a new name...

Quote from: JimBobOzI'm sure that among all the smuggling and piracy going on, there'll be the occasional person who'd like to disappear for a few weeks or months, then reappear in some foreign port, perhaps under a new name...

Which implies many kinds of underworld contacts, not just buying and selling.

It also implies at least a couple of regular harbours - or a significant amount of time spent 'making contact' with people you were referred to, with some 'joe sent me'.

Okay, who's running this?

We'll be using CT rules I assume? :)

Quote from: Levi KornelsenWhich implies many kinds of underworld contacts, not just buying and selling.

It also implies at least a couple of regular harbours - or a significant amount of time spent 'making contact' with people you were referred to, with some 'joe sent me'.

Damn you Levi, you make me want to go all The Usual Suspects over all of this...

Regards,
David R

Quote from: WerekoalaOkay, who's running this?

We'll be using CT rules I assume? :)

Well, probably I will run it - or I'll at least offer it among other campaigns pitched to the players I know. I think it has the right degree of familiarity combined with the right amount of new stuff to get players interested, so it'll probably score high.

As to rules... it'd depend on the tone. Something like Firefly works well with something light and descriptive, like Fate or d4-d4. Something grittier, with calculations of profit and loss and maintenance and wages and so on... perhaps GURPS?

Edit: here is one of 1,176 GWT actually called...

I CRAVE this setting.  I can see lifepath tables ahead of me, paving the way to a diesel mechanic/sapper with one arm and an entry on the FBI watchlist.

I can see him burning a whole drum of 7.62 in his RPK, fighting off a boatload of Somali pirates off the coast of Madagascar or running through the streets of Cape Town, trying to get to the boat before the 28s catch up to him and his satchel of Rolexes.

Endless months of shipping gun parts to Gen San, then heroin to Taiwan, then motherboards to LA, always a step ahead of the creditors and Uncle Sam.

So what would I call such a campaign? As you'll have seen from the campaign prospectuses thread, I like evocative names for them...

The StarCluster System would run this well - particularly In Harm's Way, with it's Honor/Practicality mechanic... I could easily customize it for this game.

-clash

You all seriously need to see Black Lagoon.  It's not out in the US yet, but there's a half-done fansub floating around of the first 12 episodes, look for Shinsen Subs.

The main character is a Japanese businessman who gets hijacked by pirates and winds up with the crew, doing odd shady jobs in the South China Sea.  Really cool high action deal, and should offer some definite inspiration.

Quote from: JimBobOzSo what would I call such a campaign? As you'll have seen from the campaign prospectuses thread, I like evocative names for them...

I named the campaign you just joined "1795," Kyle. Don't ask me for evocative names! My campaigns are usually named by default after where or when they take place, like the military. Informative but BOOOORING! :D

DavidR is awesome with them, though. Marco too! :O

-clash

How about a smaller-scaled game about the owners of an independent big rig?  You could have an orangutan or other simian as a sidekick, and...uh...

...

...yeah, that's, that's a bad idea.

you could call it "for a few tons more" or "high seas drifters" maybe

i'd love to try it with CoC/BRP (been itchin' to play with those rules again).  i guess i'd just co-opt the traveller trading ruleset for the mercantile element.

sounds awesome!  great idea!

I say you run the foul beast on IRC.  Give your pay for play plan a shot on it.  I'll give it a $10 shot if you do.

If it sucks, though, you owe me the mediocre medium pizza that $10 would have bought at Cheezie's.

Sounds fair. Let's say, for $10, you get four sessions, and a copy of d4-d4 (which normally costs eight bucks anyway, so only two bucks extra). I will run US eastern Monday evenings for four hours.

Quote from: JimBobOzSo what would I call such a campaign? As you'll have seen from the campaign prospectuses thread, I like evocative names for them...

Perhaps some slang/"trade" word mixed with a locale or common image? Locale could be a city, region, polity, district, neighborhood, etc. name. I've no idea of current slang for this stuff nor common non-English (loan)words that could spice up the title.

Some musings to spark ideas:
Crosstown traffic* (Transocean runs, running, smuggling, hauling, lifting, gunning)
Palm- (or other plant)
Beach- (or other terrain type associated with smuggling or a dock/port)
Rusty Bucket Bailing
(local smoke or drug, like beedis, kretek, khat) [Days] [Nights] [in (locale)] - or put the locale first
(Pirates, Smuggles, Runners) of the (sea, ocean, bay, river, etc.)



* I was listening to Hendrix and I like having music on during some games

If you need some ideas for ship names, there's over 1500 of them (for Traveller so not all will be immediately useable) here (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001090;p=1#000000) . I think they were compiled from here (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000448;p=1#000000).
5d6 Traveller ship name charts (http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000075#000000).
Havoscope Market Segments - Trafficking and Smuggling Category (http://www.havocscope.com/trafficking/trafficking.htm) (found in the wikipedia entry on smuggling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggling))

And somebody should make a LBB cover (http://zho.berka.com/goodies/lbb_render.html) for this campaign.

Here's the T20 trading program (http://www.joel-benford.co.uk/traveller/posts/T20Trading.exe) I mentioned before. T20 breaks down the trading categories nicely, not putting it all on the GM to ad lib but does have a lot of die rolls, this program automates that and gives you a taste of T20 trading.

(caffeine fading...Zzzz)

This  (http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/index.html)database of WWII convoys has a lot of good ship names....

http://www.riapress.com/

has some decent pdfs and online versions of some sailing books. So they're mostly 19th c. accounts of sea voyages but there's not going to be many 20th c. works available for free. And some things never change about sea travel/ports. Henry Major Tomlinson's The Sea and the Jungle*, Jack London, Conrad, Melville, and more.


* "Being the narrative of the voyage of the tramp steamer Capella from Swansea to Para in the Brazils, and thence 2000 miles along the forests of the Amazon and Madeira Rivers to the San Antonio Falls; afterwards returning to Barbados for orders, and going by way of Jamaica to Tampa in Florida, where she loaded for home. Done in the years 1909 and 1910."

Quote from: Erik BoiellePossibly theres mileage in salvage and looking for sunken treasure?

I strongly recommend Arturo Pérez-Reverte's book The Nautical Chart (http://www.amazon.com/Nautical-Chart-Arturo-Perez-Reverte/dp/0156029820/sr=8-13/qid=1166731420/ref=sr_1_13/102-2325173-0812106?ie=UTF8&s=books).  The story centers around a sailboat, but the plot could easily be adapted to a small tramp freighter.

!i!

So I stumbled across a mint copy of Merc 2000 - Bangkok: Cesspool of the Orient (thanks for the tip, Casey777), and I've been reading the old Gamelords Traveller adventure "The Drenslaar Quest", which involves diving off a maritime salvage vessel, and I'm going off the deep end.  I'm getting in touch with my old Merchant Marine buddy and am going to write an adventure for Classic Traveller (maybe a series) that revolves around a salvage crew based in Singapore and operating primarily around the South China Sea and Gulf of Thailand.  Out comes the old Twilight 2000 Small Arms Guide, out come the maps.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaSo I stumbled across a mint copy of Merc 2000 - Bangkok: Cesspool of the Orient (thanks for the tip, Casey777), and I've been reading the old Gamelords Traveller adventure "The Drenslaar Quest", which involves diving off a maritime salvage vessel, and I'm going off the deep end.  I'm getting in touch with my old Merchant Marine buddy and am going to write an adventure for Classic Traveller (maybe a series) that revolves around a salvage crew based in Singapore and operating primarily around the South China Sea and Gulf of Thailand.  Out comes the old Twilight 2000 Small Arms Guide, out come the maps.

!i!

Throw in a legend about a sunken WW2 Japanese submarine on its way to Nazi Germany and full of gold in payment for German secret weapons, complete with old coot American sailor from the ship that sank her who knows "exactly where she is..."

I'd play the hell out of that!


TGA

International marine salvage? Check.
Small cargo smuggling?  Check.
Rumors of sunken treasure?  Check.
Moral quandary over jobs taken? Check.

I'm thinking something along the lines of a small operation not entirely unlike Team Banzai from The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai (no, seriously!), and a small flotilla of useful vessels -- a tug, a trawler, a small support freighter.  The structure of the adventures (there's obviously more than one now) revolves around the company itself, which will not be populated by stock NPCs -- the players themselves need to fill those roles, from the owner/operator on down.

What do you do when the treasure hunt/salvage of the WWII submarine brings you into conflict not only with the Chinese navy, but the Japanese government as well?  What do you do when the simple smuggling job you signed on for turns out to involve live bodies for the sex trade?

Man, I need to include a bar like Rick's Cafe Americain, don't I?

!i!

Man alive, that sounds like some good eatin'. Let me know if you need playtesters. :)

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaMan, I need to include a bar like Rick's Cafe Americain, don't I?

!i!

If you didn't, you'd need to invent a reason to put one in. :D

-clash

The PCs should have a running tab with the bar, not for drinks, but for property destruction.

And in a strange, creepy sort of development...

...I'm suddenly finding myself considering d20 Modern.*

:eek:

!i!

(*Or has this sort of thing already been done?  Is this a good idea, or is modern/contemporary Traveller better?)

throw in a down-on-his-luck oceanographer/filmmaker a la steve zissou . . .

what a cast!  and quite the flotilla you'd have, too

I would dearly love to see this, but in the name of god with a ruleset that's reasonably light like Traveller, not with the utterly flavourless and overcomplex d20 Modern.

Savage Worlds, Traveller, hell a ton of systems could do this, but d20 Modern just isn't right IMO.  Too complex, too bland.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaAnd in a strange, creepy sort of development...

...I'm suddenly finding myself considering d20 Modern.*

:eek:

!i!

(*Or has this sort of thing already been done?  Is this a good idea, or is modern/contemporary Traveller better?)

I think Modern Traveller would be more original, more fun, would capture that Traveller vibe in a new way and would be more accessible too.

Quote from: BalbinusI think Modern Traveller would be more original, more fun, would capture that Traveller vibe in a new way and would be more accessible too.

I've been vascillating on the issue all day here at work (why, yes, I'm getting my work done -- why do you ask?), and this is my feeling, too.  I like the notion of dragging the Traveller mechanics into a contemporary setting instead of sci-fi.  Does anyone know off hand who currently sits hen on the publication rights for classic Traveller?  Is it Far Future Enterprises, or have they simply licensed the rights to reprint the existing body of Traveller works?

!i!

(P.S. Their website is a mess and provides a broken e-mail link.)

I think it's FFE, but I could be wrong.

I was reading the Robert E Howard boxing short stories today, and they are full of this stuff.  Tramp steamers in dodgy ports with their crew getting into fights and adventures.

Wonderful stuff.

I'm afraid I might take it into Colin Glencannon pastiche land...

-clash

It's actually not that much work with Traveller, as to be honest the chargen doesn't contain much past the 1970s anyway.

Scouts get lost I think, but Navy can still be the Navy, Merchants the merchant navy, Army and Marines are as they are and same with other.

You then just need to change a small number of skills as follows:

Air/Raft becomes something like Pilot (for planes) or helicopter.
ATV becomes drive.
Computer in a modern setting stays as is, in an earlier period it would need replacing.
Pilot becomes something like Sailing and covers larger vessels.  
Ship's Boat becomes smaller vessels, tugs, sailboats and the like.  
Vacc Suit I'm not sure.

So basically the only challenge is Vacc Suit, and Computer for a game set in the 1930s if one felt so inclined.

Would Vacc Suit sub out for Scuba and the like?  I'm not sure who gets it and all, but it would be the applicable similar skill.

For the 1930-40's, Vacc Suit becomes Deep Sea diver (you know, those wonderful things with the bronze helmets and hoses going up to the surface; I'm pretty sure there's a great Tintin picture of Captain Haddock in one).

BTW for inspiration may I suggest, in addition to Tintin, a more modern Francophone comic called Les Innomables (http://www.bdcouvertes.com/innommables/Innomfra.htm). The main characters were basically a bunch of neerdowell Americans, who, in the couple volumes I've read, are basically wandering around in a tugboat looking for fortune.

I thought I'd share a bit from a recent e-mail I received from an old friend of mine who was a travel writer in the region.

Quote1. To start with the good stuff: Pirates. In Cambodian and Indonesian waters for sure, probably Burmese and maybe others. They often raid Thai fishing boats in Thai waters, then skip back to where the Thai navy can't touch them.

2. The Australian coast guard keep pretty tight security in their waters - lots of illegal immigrants and their bloody continent is just oh so overcrowded. The other navies range from practically useless (Cambodia comes to mind) to almost reasonable (Thailand keeps their waters fairly safe, especially near tourist areas, though). You can expect corruption from all of them, barring the Aussies.

3. Fishermen everywhere, of course, going for fish, squid, etc.

4. Sea gypsies. Though the regional governments are trying to make these people stay still and be counted, many still roam the islands, never staying at one beach for more than a month or two. National Geographic did a good piece on these shy, peaceful people.

5. The Loveboat. There are two or three of these giant tourist boats that cruise around these waters.

6. The Burmese navy - of particular interest out of all the other regional navies. The ruling junta is the largest exporter of Heroin in the world, and their amphetamine trade will soon surpass that. Pirates operating out of Burmese waters may have friends in the government.

7. Gambling ships. Gambling is illegal in Thailand, so there is an old pleasure ship parked in Burmese waters near the Thai border, where Thais can and gamble. There used to be another one parked in the river right off Phnom Penh in Cambodia. There are probably more...though Macau continues to be the Las Vegas of Asia.

8. Oddly, I never see seaplanes. Given the proximity of all the islands, I would think it would be a great business. There is only one small operator that I know of, and he flies only around Phuket, never going further than the Similan Islands. Maybe there is a lack of docking facilities with gas available.

9. Dive boats and other tourist craft. Lots of these around Phuket. Most are just untrained guys who thought they'd buy a speedboat and ferry tourists. They're always overloading and tipping into the drink.

10. They've just discovered oil in Cambodian waters, so the oil companies will be snooping around for places to build offshore rigs (and the Cambodian politicians will be scheming ways to keep all the money for themselves - Average Joe Khmer won't see a dime of it).

11. Lots of undersea quakes throughout the area every day (see USGS survey) and always the threat of tsunamis.

That's a good springboard.

!i!

(P.S. My friend and his wife very recently left Thailand -- I was going to write "fled", but that seems too strong a word -- as the social and political situation has been heating up with anti-Western sympathies.)

I've started making up some chargen tables, I'll post them hopefully later this week.

Blast, the first draft won't upload.

Ok, for a modern day setting and for a 1930s setting what would you replace the Traveller's Aid mustering out benefit with?

Otherwise, I need to send people the initial file so as to get a couple of suggestions before I go to the next bit.

Quote from: BalbinusOk, for a modern day setting and for a 1930s setting what would you replace the Traveller's Aid mustering out benefit with?

Some sort of fraternal membership?  Connections with the State Department? A Diner's Club card? That's a bit of a tough one -- the TAS is more than a bit like the AAA* on anabolic steroids.  I can't really think of a single, tangible equivalent that could be received as a reward upon leaving service.

!i!

(*American Automobile Association, for those not familiar)

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaSome sort of fraternal membership?  Connections with the State Department? A Diner's Club card? That's a bit of a tough one -- the TAS is more than a bit like the AAA* on anabolic steroids.  I can't really think of a single, tangible equivalent that could be received as a reward upon leaving service.

!i!

(*American Automobile Association, for those not familiar)

Worth thinking about definitely, I've managed to attach the file so far to rpg.net at this thread http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=310556

Just cuz I want to get y'all excited...

(http://mariner.pbwiki.com/f/Mariner_box.jpg)

(http://mariner.pbwiki.com/f/Mariner_1.jpg) (http://mariner.pbwiki.com/f/Mariner_2.jpg) (http://mariner.pbwiki.com/f/Mariner_3.jpg)

What do you think?

!i!

[Edit:  I switched over to the aquamarine color scheme (as close as I could get to Adventure 9: Nomads of the World Ocean) and added the individual book covers.  I may mock up a back cover for the box tonight.]

:eek:

It's a WINNER!

'Mariner'. I love it.

- Q

SchaWEET.

Excellent work :-)

Brilliant, Ian! :D

-clash

Do y'all like the blue?  Initially I did them all in the original Traveller red-on-black, but felt that blue conveyed a more maritime feel.  However, the current blue-on-black is virtually identical to Book 5: High Guard, so I think I'm going to redo them in aquamarine.

Well, all of this simulated cover business is fine, but as a friend of mine once put it, "It's all fur coat and no knickers."  Time to get working on the meat of it.

!i!

Balbinus,

  As a thought, regarding your tables might it not be worth maybe adding a Diplomatic/Colonial service career?  It strikes me as fitting for the period and the feel.  If I were you I'd replace the AirForce career as in the 30's there weren't actually all that many separate airforces.  The US Air Force was only founded in 1947 for example.  Maybe put a piloting skill in with the navy stuff somewhere.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalIf I were you I'd replace the AirForce career as in the 30's there weren't actually all that many separate airforces.  The US Air Force was only founded in 1947 for example.  Maybe put a piloting skill in with the navy stuff somewhere.

I had thought about that, too.  However, the RAF was founded in 1918 when it combined the Royal Flying Corps and the Royal Naval Air Service.  As you pointed out, the US didn't take such a measure until after WWII -- up until then, they had the Army Air Corps and the Marine and Naval Air services.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaI had thought about that, too.  However, the RAF was founded in 1918 when it combined the Royal Flying Corps and the Royal Naval Air Service.  As you pointed out, the US didn't take such a measure until after WWII -- up until then, they had the Army Air Corps and the Marine and Naval Air services.

!i!

Now it has the Air Force and the Marine and Naval Air services. The RNAS was combined wiht the RFC into the RAF, but was re-established between the wars as the Fleet Air Arm. There seems to be a definite real split in function there. The US Army has just replaced planes with attack helicopters because it needs close support, yet is not allowed to fly combat planes because of the split. Now instead of three separate air forces, the US has four, and instead of two separate air forces, Britain has... two. :D

-clash

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaJust cuz I want to get y'all excited...

(http://mariner.pbwiki.com/f/Mariner_box_aqua.jpg)

This is great the only thing I would change is Action and Adventure on the High Seas. Instead of the South China Sea. That way it is suggested that the game can be used for more areas. Of course like original Traveller in the Spinward Marches, Mariner will focus on the South China Seas.

Rob Conley

Quote from: estarThis is great the only thing I would change is Action and Adventure on the High Seas. Instead of the South China Sea. That way it is suggested that the game can be used for more areas. Of course like original Traveller in the Spinward Marches, Mariner will focus on the South China Seas.

Point well taken, Rob.  Very well taken, indeed.  I was just describing the project to someone else and caught myself avoiding specific mention of the South China Sea.  I think you're dead-on with the parallel of Spinward Marches is to Traveller as South China Sea is to Mariner.

!i!

Maybe "Seven Seas" rather than "High Seas"... "High Seas" sounds a bit too piratey.

Was listening to my usual radio show this morning - well, only 1/2 way listening to it, really - and suddenly my ears pick up a caller telling his host about a trip from Germany to New Jersey on a freighter that took 16 days. He was older and rambling, but I listened up because of this very topic. He was a passenger with three others, whom he described as "a guy who was a bit of a flake, one guy who ate garlic all the time, and the daughter of Winston Churchill traveling incognito". He also said something about her having written a book of poetry or somesuch. Unfortunately, he didn't get to finish his story, but I sat here thinking: "Damn - this really IS Traveller!"

Hurry up, Ian!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaPoint well taken, Rob.  Very well taken, indeed.  I was just describing the project to someone else and caught myself avoiding specific mention of the South China Sea.  I think you're dead-on with the parallel of Spinward Marches is to Traveller as South China Sea is to Mariner.

!i!

OK Who got dibs on this ;)

(http://home.earthlink.net/~wilderlands/marsup10.jpg)

Enjoy
Rob Conley

"the horn of africa" just sounds like a black porn star.

Quote from: estar(http://home.earthlink.net/~wilderlands/marsup10.jpg)

:eek:

You bastard! :haw:

!i!

Quote from: Mr. Analytical"the horn of africa" just sounds like a black porn star.

And I hear that you get charged extra if you ask for a "Somali Rim"...

Well, that's what I heard!

:rimshot:

Thanks, folks!  I'll be here all week.  Please remember to tip your waitress.


TGA

Quote from: The Good AssyrianPlease remember to tip your waitress.

Is that something like tipping cows?

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceIs that something like tipping cows?

-clash

You can find *anything* on the Internet, my friend...

"Tipping the waitress" (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tipping+the+waitress)

Back to the topic!  Great work so far, Ian.  I really think that this addresses an interesting genre in a cool way.  I know that I will be giving it a spin!


TGA

Quote from: The Good AssyrianYou can find *anything* on the Internet, my friend...

"Tipping the waitress" (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tipping+the+waitress)

Back to the topic!  Great work so far, Ian.  I really think that this addresses an interesting genre in a cool way.  I know that I will be giving it a spin!


TGA

That's why I only search for certain well defined things...

Yes indeed! This is awesome! :D

-clash

Quote from: The Good AssyrianGreat work so far, Ian.  I really think that this addresses an interesting genre in a cool way.  I know that I will be giving it a spin!

Thanks.  As I said before, though, the cover mock-ups are "all fur coat and no knickers".  Let's all keep our fingers crossed that the Power-That-Be takes the bait... :mischief:

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaThanks.  As I said before, though, the cover mock-ups are "all fur coat and no knickers".  
!i!

You say that like it's a bad thing! :O

-clash

Btw, my earlier suggestion regarding a sunken Japanese submarine filled with gold was something I pulled from my cobwebbed memory.  After doing some digging I found the story of the real deal:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_submarine_I-52

The fact that the Japanese were building these huge cargo-carrying submarines and trying to get them all the way to Germany and back is fascinating, and natural fodder for RPG adventure.


TGA

I learned about this idea on another message list and just had to come over and say something.

This is a great idea (and an obvious one at that).  The comparisons between Traveller and this are many.  Little doubt that many Traveller adventures could be easily converted.  I especially love the "Covers" that have been done.  Hats off to some very imaginative folks!

Some additional information that may be of help.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f57/firearms-regulations-by-country-1641.html

That one is a very well researched listing of firearm regulations by country, though not complete.  Note that characters would have a lot of trouble in many places.

I would also recommend looking through other parts of Cruisers Forum.  Even though it is primarily for private cruisers, there is a lot of great "flavor" type information there.  And let's face it, private cruisers would be a fairly common encounter (and possible adventures there).  Especially look at this thread http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f51/whats-your-opinion-firearms-or-not-90.html  The thoughts of people from around the world on the subject are interesting and something that characters would run into.

Next http://www.noonsite.com/ good site with lots of info, the pirate pages are good.

Another good site on the Yacht Piracy subject.  http://www.yachtpiracy.org/en/index.htm

A company that should provide some inspiration.  http://www.maritimesecurity.com/

A couple of security items for ships.
http://www.shiploc.com/html/about_shiploc.html
http://www.secure-marine.com/yacht/index.shtml

Someone was advertising a RPV for personal use on private ships a couple years ago, but I can't find it now.

I would also suggest looking at any of the large numbers of boat and ship manufacturers web sites for some specific information on various private and commercial boats/ships currently available.  Some examples are -
http://www.barges.com/
http://www.swiftships.com/mil.html
http://www.geminicatamarans.com/
http://www.cheoyleena.com/
http://www.voyageyachts.com/
http://www.mantacatamarans.com/
http://www.rosboroughboats.com/
http://www.shannonyachts.com/

And there are lots of others!  There are of course a good number of sail boats out there that are not manufactured anymore, but are in large numbers.  A google search should turn up quite a bit of information on them (more variety to encounter).  There are a good number of sites that advertise many boats for sale, again useful for adventure ideas and atmosphere variety.

Hope this info helps inspire some ideas!

Holy cats, SionEwig.  This is great stuff.  Just this evening* I've been playing about with converting the Universal Planetary Profile to the Universal Port Profile, and that link to the firearms regulations is great help in working out an equivalent to Law Level.  Tech Level is still going to be a ball breaker.

Out of curiosity, on what other message list did you read about this idea?

!i!

(*Really, I do have a life, but I'm still getting over the flu -- which has killed two grade school aged children here inside the last two weeks! -- and my family has abandoned me to go out on their own.)

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaTech Level is still going to be a ball breaker.
[/QUOTETraveller Tech Level had many interpretations but one that may be useful to Mariner is the idea that Tech Level represent what a place can produce.

Perhaps what you need to do is produce not a Tech Level but a Tech Profile for a Universal Port Profile. It is a still a single digit but some up what group of Good are available.

For example Tech Level 0 means that there is little demand beyond basic subsidence good like food and clothing. A means the ful range of present Technology. BCDEFGH etc are specialized code. For example in Somalia it could be tech code E. Which is Basic subsidence + light weaponry + small scale luxury  goods (for local warlords).

Wow, I see these ideas have really taken off in people's minds, I'm really interested to see the final results!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaHoly cats, SionEwig.  This is great stuff.  Just this evening* I've been playing about with converting the Universal Planetary Profile to the Universal Port Profile, and that link to the firearms regulations is great help in working out an equivalent to Law Level.  Tech Level is still going to be a ball breaker.

Out of curiosity, on what other message list did you read about this idea?

!i!

(*Really, I do have a life, but I'm still getting over the flu -- which has killed two grade school aged children here inside the last two weeks! -- and my family has abandoned me to go out on their own.)

The Traveller Mailing List, where it was said about this thread "I think these guys are on to something."

Glad the information is useful.  Most of it I have had for a while since my wife and I are planning a possible circumnavigation next year with our kids and some friends.

Some things that may help with the various "tech" levels is to look at web sites of people who are or have sailed through the areas.  Here is one set of links on a bunch of them.
 
http://www.sailzora.com/links.htm

But there are many out there who have cruising logs.  A lot of them will give all kinds of "atmosphere" of the various harbors, anchorages, etc.  One thing that may surprise people is how many people there are out there who do these long distance voyages with their young children.

In most cases, if you noticed, the Law Levels are (in Traveller terms) very high.  Most places either do not allow firearms at all. or will keep them while you are there, or (if you are lucky) simply seal the safe on your craft.  And look carefully at some of those places; even spear guns, flare guns, and other such things may be not allowed.

Something else to remember to add in is who actually administers many of the islands and places.  A lot of them would be (again in Traveller terms) "captive governments" since many of them are not independent.

As to rules set for this, may I suggest just playing fast and loose with rules.  While the Traveller character generation rules worked well for it and other sets worked well for what they were set in, I have only found ONE set that actually came close to realistically showing what potentially large number of skill people may have in (relatively speaking) "modern" settings.  And that rules set is Timelords by BTRC.  Think about it, Traveller, Twilight 2000 (of any edition), and several others basically say that you have few to no skills at age 18.  I think that the case can be made for that being way off base.  You may not have high levels of skills (probably), but you certainly have some.  Call of Cthulhu did a better job of giving out skills, but even it was a bit stingy.

The best rules set - reference for firearms and such was Guns, Guns, Guns and Guns, Guns, and More Guns by Kevin Dockery, most others just really miss out (no pun intended).  Failing that a copy of Jane's is great.  And players will want GUNS!!!!

Combat systems for modern actions are many and varied.  There are some exceptionally complex and realistic ones out there (as I am sure you know), but those are also incredibly slow in actual use.  My personal favorite for modern is Call of Cthulhu, you might tell that I like that game!

Anyway, enough of this epic (I tend to run on and on when I get really interested in something).  Hope this stuff is of help, use what you want, and ignore the rest!  Any other help I can be, just ask, this could be fun.

I do know about the "flu" syndrome with family members.  It's like you have a "leper" sign around your neck.:hehe:

Watching the History Channel today - there's a show on about the Pacific counterpart to the Bermuda Triangle, called the "Dragon's Triangle" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil's_Sea

Alas, not much info online that I can suss out, but there's a good supplement or adventure for the game. I call dibs.  :)

Also - I found a (the?) LBB making page, but how did you get it to read as "Mariner" rather than "Traveller"? Photoshop or somesuch?

Quote from: WerekoalaI found a (the?) LBB making page, but how did you get it to read as "Mariner" rather than "Traveller"? Photoshop or somesuch?

Photoshop, InDesign, and too much time on my hands as I had to stay away from the office this last week.  I did, however, use the zho.berka cover rendering site to get the basic placement and dimensions of the color blocks.  Also, finding an approximation of the Traveller cover font, Optima, was a bit of a bitch, but I've discovered that if you keep looking long enough and hard enough, sooner or later you'll find what you want for free, bundled up in a .tar file on a university server somewhere in the world.

!i!

Couple of more useful links.

First, a thread on another forum about ships/boats/etc.  Primarily useful cause it has a good number of links in it, some extremely nice.

http://forums.rpghost.com/showthread.php?t=30031

Second, one of the links from there that deserves very special attention.  Chino has come up with a fair number of very useful ship plans.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeedox4/

And just for atmosphere, think of the scene in last year's remake of King Kong where the arms were being passed out.  First you've got the "known" arms room with all the mausers (IIRC) and then the hidden locker under the berth with the 1928s.  When that scene came on my friends looked over at me and my wife and commented, "Oh look, your cruise ship."

My original table set is modern day, hence computer skills, for a 1930s one I would make a few changes.  I just thought it might help Ian get started.

Love the cover mockups.

Quote from: BalbinusMy original table set is modern day, hence computer skills, for a 1930s one I would make a few changes.  I just thought it might help Ian get started.

Love the cover mockups.

Great start, and more than I could have done (I still have trouble making tables).

I do have some comments, please don't take them harshly.

In the Ranks section, go on and use real ranks on the tables, it's easy enough to look up the stuff on even some of the lesser known countries militaries.  You can always have 2 or more ranks as having the same "Rank Number" like Traveller later did in the later books.  Also, rank should be harder to obtain as you go up, especially when you get into Field Grade.  And no enlisted tables?

In the Mustering Out section, I think that the material benefits need a bit of work.  I have always thought that Blade was a really cheap benefit and Gun should be highly restricted.  Most other countries are highly restrictive on private ownership of firearms and military weapons are even more restricted.  The Cash table is pretty good, only it may need some adjustment depending on what country the character served in.

In the Skills section there is work needed.  As I said in an above post, I really think that the vast majority of games do not come anywhere close to representing the skills and levels that characters should possess, especially in games in "modern" settings and that are more reality based.  There should without a doubt be a good number more of automatic skills and Blade should be much more rare.

As I started with, this is a very good start.  You have at least started the ball rolling and I say "Thank You" for that.

Balbinus was going for a very "old school" Traveller feeling, thus skilled careers beginning at 18, the lack of a table for enlisted ranks, the particular mustering out benefits, and the skills array.

Personally, I'm not a great fan of the "more is better" philosophy of skills attributions.  One thing that should be borne in mind -- and it's a topic that we've discussed here in other threads regarding classic Traveller -- is that the skills shown are, in many ways, an abbreviated summary of an individual's competency.  On the scale of the 2d6 mechanics, Skill-1 is actually pretty impressive, and Skill-3 (mastery) does a right fine job.  Take a broader application of specific skills to related tasks, and I think that classic Traveller characters prove quite competent.  Later Traveller books (like Mercenary, High Guard, etc.) were attempts to make character creation a closer simulation to real careers, rather than an emulation, which is what Book 1 and Citizens of the Imperium were going after.

!i!

Quote from: SionEwigGreat start, and more than I could have done (I still have trouble making tables).

I do have some comments, please don't take them harshly.

In the Ranks section, go on and use real ranks on the tables, it's easy enough to look up the stuff on even some of the lesser known countries militaries.  You can always have 2 or more ranks as having the same "Rank Number" like Traveller later did in the later books.  Also, rank should be harder to obtain as you go up, especially when you get into Field Grade.  And no enlisted tables?

In the Mustering Out section, I think that the material benefits need a bit of work.  I have always thought that Blade was a really cheap benefit and Gun should be highly restricted.  Most other countries are highly restrictive on private ownership of firearms and military weapons are even more restricted.  The Cash table is pretty good, only it may need some adjustment depending on what country the character served in.

In the Skills section there is work needed.  As I said in an above post, I really think that the vast majority of games do not come anywhere close to representing the skills and levels that characters should possess, especially in games in "modern" settings and that are more reality based.  There should without a doubt be a good number more of automatic skills and Blade should be much more rare.

As I started with, this is a very good start.  You have at least started the ball rolling and I say "Thank You" for that.

Hey, feedback is always welcome.

On Ranks you have a point, and I likely shall.  I'd probably use US ranks for ease of convenience.

On Mustering out Benefits, in original Traveller Blade and Gun made more sense.  In this context not so much, so I'll think on that.

Re skills, the idea is that only those skills for which one might get paid are really covered, and skills are quite broad.  Ian addresses this quite well, were I to want to cover skills in more detail as you suggest I wouldn't actually use Traveller as a base.  Something like Gurps or Corps would be far more suitable IMO.

Quote from: JimBobOzMadness or genius? What do you reckon?

Genius.  You HAVE to get this published.

Mind if I recommend a couple of books?

Dangerous Waters: Modern Piracy and Terror on the High Seas by John Burnett.  A damn good book on the subject.  He did a radio interview on NPR a few months ago which made me buy the book.  There are DOZENS of adventure ideas in there.  Edit: A quick check shows it going for $2.42 for a paperback on Amazon.

The Outlaw Sea : A World of Freedom, Chaos, and Crime by William William Langewiesche.  Another very good book, also available on Amazon.


Edit:  Also, have you ever seen the TV show "Deadliest Catch?"  It's about crab fishermen working off the coast of Alaska.  It isn't Indian Ocean/Pacific Rim, sure, but it does show working conditions on a ship pretty well.

The Outlaw Sea is highly relevant, personally I didn't think it worked that well as a book, really it was three only barely related essays, but at least one of those essays is damn relevant to this thread.

Also, http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=311420 is an excellent rpg.net thread on a related topic which I recommend.

Quote from: CessnaEdit:  Also, have you ever seen the TV show "Deadliest Catch?"  It's about crab fishermen working off the coast of Alaska.  It isn't Indian Ocean/Pacific Rim, sure, but it does show working conditions on a ship pretty well.

I saw the ads for that and was really interested.  Having grown up in the Puget Sound region, lots of friends and acquaintences made their (almost obscenely lucrative) seasonal jobs on fishing and crabbing boats.  Of course, I also have a small handful of dead friends and acquaintences who went down in such boats.

I'll be keeping an eye open for Outlaw Sea.

!i!

Any ideas on how to get an adventure going with this setting?  There's no shortage of crazy shit to drop PCs into with this, I'm just at a loss for how to present or pace it.

Ive been lurking reading this thread. It is an awesome idea. If I didnt have a Wild West campaign going on with my group right now. I would steal this lock, stock, and barrel.
While reading this I had an adventure idea. Posibly have the characters encounter a cargo  cult. This could work for a 1930's or modern campaign. For those not familiar with cargo cults (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult).

Quote from: BalbinusHey, feedback is always welcome.

On Ranks you have a point, and I likely shall.  I'd probably use US ranks for ease of convenience.

For this, I think the US ranks would work fine.  It's not like a player couldn't quickly look up the ranks for other armend forces if they want that as a background.

QuoteOn Mustering out Benefits, in original Traveller Blade and Gun made more sense.  In this context not so much, so I'll think on that.

And I'm not sure what to replace them with, anyone got any thoughts?

QuoteRe skills, the idea is that only those skills for which one might get paid are really covered, and skills are quite broad.  Ian addresses this quite well, were I to want to cover skills in more detail as you suggest I wouldn't actually use Traveller as a base.  Something like Gurps or Corps would be far more suitable IMO.

Well, I wouldn't rule anything out as useful skills, even money-making ones.  As I have discovered in 30 years of playing RPGs, players can come up with the strangest things and ideas!

Something you might add in is some of the career paths from Supplement 4 Citizens of the Imperium.  A number of those might be appropriate and possibly useful.  Mainly thinking Pirate, Doctor, Barbarian, Rogue, maybe Scientist, Bureaucrat, and Diplomat.

You are right, for better detail GURPS would work fairly well as would COC.  I'm not familiar with CORPS, but if it is the one by BTRC then it should work well also.  BTRCs first game (I think) was Timelords, which is what I feel has done the best job of allowing for the very braod skill set that is not uncommon in contemporary/modern people.

Now as to the best "trade" system, then Traveller in one of it's various incarnations is the best.

Quote from: CessnaMind if I recommend a couple of books?

Dangerous Waters: Modern Piracy and Terror on the High Seas by John Burnett.  

[...snip...]

The Outlaw Sea : A World of Freedom, Chaos, and Crime by William William Langewiesche.

And I found both books, brand new and cheap at the local Half Price Books.  Looks like the pile on my nightstand just crested a foot.  Thanks for the tips.

!i!

Additional "skill" that came to mind that would be very necessary (and one that Traveller almost never brings up) - Languages!

Doesn't everyone speak English?  Damns, this may slow things down a bit.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaDoesn't everyone speak English?  Damns, this may slow things down a bit.

!i!

I think you could wind up with a lot of comedy gold if you had the players go into business in the region under that assumption.

Sure a lot of countries teach their students English as standard curriculum now, but we in the US teach a lot of our students French or Spanish standard now, and look at the foreign language skills of the average American.  ;)

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaDoesn't everyone speak English?  Damns, this may slow things down a bit.

!i!

You can thank my 7 year old for thinking of it!:D

Quote from: SionEwigSomething you might add in is some of the career paths from Supplement 4 Citizens of the Imperium.  A number of those might be appropriate and possibly useful.  Mainly thinking Pirate, Doctor, Barbarian, Rogue, maybe Scientist, Bureaucrat, and Diplomat.

I looked at those, and actually they don't work as well as I had initially thought.  Characters from the book 4 system often seem to end up with Medic 7 or Liaison 5, which doesn't fit too well with the broader Traveller chargen philosophy.

Scientists rather bizarrely don't have any scientific skills, but there may be some mileage in some of the others.

Quote from: SionEwigAdditional "skill" that came to mind that would be very necessary (and one that Traveller almost never brings up) - Languages!

Good point actually, very much so.

I'd probably do something like give the characters a free additional language for each three levels of education, or something like that.  So an Educ 8 character would have their native tongue and two other languages, an Educ 9 three other languages and so on.

Not great, but probably good enough.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaDoesn't everyone speak English?  Damns, this may slow things down a bit.

This reminds me of Feng Shui, where every character - PC or NPC, across the whole globe and four different time periods - speaks perfect Cantonese, which has been flawlessly dubbed into English.  Any mistakes or accents are only for comic effect

Just had to post this link.  I WANT one!!!

http://www.hydroptere.com/index.php4?lang=EN

QuoteFROM 33 TO 47.2 KNOTS IN 6 SECONDS...

47 knots in a sailboat!!!

One of Jim Bob's best threads. Also, you can find sea piracy far nearer than you think. I'll see if I can find some links.

Quote from: BalbinusI'd probably do something like give the characters a free additional language for each three levels of education, or something like that.

[...snip...]

Not great, but probably good enough.

I was thinking that this might be a good use for the Skill-0 house rule we've been discussing.  There could also be some provision for it in either the Personal Development or the Advanced Education tables, with Language being a cascade skill like Aircraft or Vehicle -- each time you gain the skill, you choose either Skill-1 in a new language or an additional level in one that you already hold.

Am I recalling correctly that T4 introduced a fifth table to the career development format?  Would that help in this situation?

!i!

Quote from: SionEwigJust had to post this link.  I WANT one!!!

http://www.hydroptere.com/index.php4?lang=EN

And it's not a rigid sail.  Holy cats.

!i!

That's a shiny boat! Use it in a post-nuclear setting with no radio technology and you've got an X-boat.

Alright, JimBob's expressed some interest in a game of Mariner over IRC.  Generic system, PM him for those details.  I'll be running.

Who wants to play?

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaI was thinking that this might be a good use for the Skill-0 house rule we've been discussing.  There could also be some provision for it in either the Personal Development or the Advanced Education tables, with Language being a cascade skill like Aircraft or Vehicle -- each time you gain the skill, you choose either Skill-1 in a new language or an additional level in one that you already hold.

Am I recalling correctly that T4 introduced a fifth table to the career development format?  Would that help in this situation?

!i!

That is I think, the best suggestion for Languages thus far.  I like it.

Never looked at T4, but most of the folks on the TML have not been thrilled with it.

What are you thinking about with Skill-0?

Quote from: fonkaygarryAlright, JimBob's expressed some interest in a game of Mariner over IRC.  Generic system, PM him for those details.  I'll be running.

Who wants to play?

IRC... ? Is that like Teamspeak or MSN?

Quote from: BalbinusI looked at those, and actually they don't work as well as I had initially thought.  Characters from the book 4 system often seem to end up with Medic 7 or Liaison 5, which doesn't fit too well with the broader Traveller chargen philosophy.

You are right, the Suppliment 4 characters did not work as well as the ones in Book 1.  Now those character paths were better done in MT, so maybe that should be referenced for ideas.

QuoteScientists rather bizarrely don't have any scientific skills, but there may be some mileage in some of the others.

That showed some of the problems with Traveller, now some got better with the skills added in Books 4-7, and solidly better in MT.  I do think that a Scientist path might be of use, as would a Doctor path.  We do know that it takes a Medical-3 (minimum) to be a Doctor.

Another thing that came to mind was that Pilot should be removed from Navy, Marine, and Army career paths.  Yes, I know that all 3 of those services have pilots, but the way that it is set up it just about any serviceman could have Pilot as a skill.  Let anyone who wants to be a Pilot in the other services use the Air Force tables and simply say that they were in the correct service and use those other ranks.

Quote from: WerekoalaIRC... ? Is that like Teamspeak or MSN?

Internet Relay Channels.  It predates Teamspeak and IM by like a decade.

Google MIRC.

EDIT: JOIN MY MODTRAV GAEM PLX.

I believe that in telling people to PM me for details, fonkaygarry is talking about my system which is rules-light, but not freeform (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4599). Aside from that, all the setting stuff is in fonkaygarry's head, not mine :p

Quote from: SionEwigWhat are you thinking about with Skill-0?

Hrm.  I forget in which thread we were discussing it, but the topic centered on how to handle seemingly incompetent Traveller characters when a specific skill is needed to even proceed with an adventure.  Ah, that jogged my memory (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4395&page=3).  We arrived at a house rule that, using the classic Traveller career tables, allowed a player to choose one 0-Level skill per term for any skill he hasn't already rolled at random.  Here's the wording Balbinus used in the document he drew up:

QuoteLEVEL 0 SKILLS
At the end of each term characters may pick one level 0 skill.  Level 0 skills may not be stacked and each level 0 skill may only be taken once.  In the event the character later acquires a level 0 Skill at level 1 the level 0 skill is lost but an additional level 0 skill may be taken at the end of that turn.

Also, on the matter of the Scientist career, perhaps an application of the cascade skill rule would work here, too.  The skill obtained could be "Science" and a set of cascade skills such as Chemistry, Biology, Astronomy, Geology, etc. could be chosen upon rolling the skill.

!i!

Okay, I have the IRC program - what channel?

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaHrm.  I forget in which thread we were discussing it, but the topic centered on how to handle seemingly incompetent Traveller characters when a specific skill is needed to even proceed with an adventure.  Ah, that jogged my memory (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4395&page=3).  We arrived at a house rule that, using the classic Traveller career tables, allowed a player to choose one 0-Level skill per term for any skill he hasn't already rolled at random.  Here's the wording Balbinus used in the document he drew up:Also, on the matter of the Scientist career, perhaps an application of the cascade skill rule would work here, too.  The skill obtained could be "Science" and a set of cascade skills such as Chemistry, Biology, Astronomy, Geology, etc. could be chosen upon rolling the skill.

!i!

Full agreement on both!  And that's about what most of the groups I know that played Traveller did with Skill-0.

Yeah, admittedly we just kind of set the Skill-0 provisos from the various published adventures in updated, standardised language.  By the way, last night I was reading through the experience rules in Book 2 again.  Man, those were brutally difficult.  Eight years to permanently obtain a +1 skill level.  They also mention the 1/2 skill level, the ungainly precursor to the 0-level skill.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaYeah, admittedly we just kind of set the Skill-0 provisos from the various published adventures in updated, standardised language.  By the way, last night I was reading through the experience rules in Book 2 again.  Man, those were brutally difficult.  Eight years to permanently obtain a +1 skill level.  They also mention the 1/2 skill level, the ungainly precursor to the 0-level skill.

!i!

Yeah, it was tough to improve a character during play!  They did have a mention of Skill-0 (sort of) in Book 1.

QuoteAll player-characters have an innate weapons expertise, in all weapons, of zero.  Acquisition of a weapons skill boosts this to level-1.  Additional acquisitions of expertise increase the present level by one.

Emphasis is mine.

Quote from: fonkaygarryAlright, JimBob's expressed some interest in a game of Mariner over IRC.  Generic system, PM him for those details.  I'll be running.

Who wants to play?

While I have an interest in this type of game (obviously :D ), gaming by Chat is simply something I am not able to do.  Someone please make sure and keep up with what happens during the game sessions and post it somewhere here so people can read the adventures (and probably make MST3K type comments!) and give advice/suggestions.

Quote from: SionEwigThey did have a mention of Skill-0 (sort of) in Book 1.

QuoteAll player-characters have an innate weapons expertise, in all weapons, of zero. Acquisition of a weapons skill boosts this to level-1. Additional acquisitions of expertise increase the present level by one.

Emphasis is mine.

Interesting.  I'd forgotten all about that one tiny paragraph.  Oh, and as a bit of trivia, my 1st edition copy here, bought in the summer of 1980, states "of one-half" where your copy states "of zero".  I'm willing to bet that your copy of Book 2 makes the change from 1/2-level skills to 0-level skills under the section for weapons expertise in the Experience section.

Anyway, more to the point, we should revise our Skill-0 rule to exclude personal weapon skills, all of which are automatically rated at 0-level.  Thanks for the heads-up!

!i!

Quote from: WerekoalaOkay, I have the IRC program - what channel?

#therpgsite on the MagicStar server.  Go ahead and PM times and nights you're available to talk.

Okay, cats.  Let me lay this on you and see who jives.  It's my earliest iteration of the UPP, or Universal Port Profile.  The prototype, if you will.  Format is as follows:
   X-123AIR-4
X refers to the port type, with appropriate current-day analogs to starport types A, B, C, D, E, and X.
1 refers to the Population of the host city that supports the port, rated from 0 to 9, but not likely to ever exceed 7.
2 refers to the Government type of the host nation, or the city itself if it is operated effectively as an independent entity (e.g. Hong Kong, Singapore).  Rated 0 to D, and are unchanged from those described in Book 3.  The only odd ones seem to be 5 - Feudal Technocracy, and 7 - Balkanisation.  Can anyone think of a modern city that's run under a Feudal Technocracy?  Or a maritime nation that wouldn't be better described as government 0 - "No government structure"?
3 refers to Law Level, rated 0 to 9, unchanged from the list in Book 3.
A refers to Agricultural Trade Index, the degree to which the port serves as a point of export for agricultural goods, dependent upon the agricultural output of the host nation.  Rated "A" for Agricultural, "N" for Non-agricultural, and 0 for no significant classification.  These ratings serve the exact same purpose as the World Type trade classifications from Book 2.
I refers to Industrial Trade Index, in exactly the same fashion as the Agricultural Trade Index above.  Rated "I" for industrial, "N" for Non-industrial, and 0 for no significant classification.
R refers to the Affluence Index, the relative wealth that the host nation channels into the port operations and/or the host city.  Rated "R" for Rich, "P" for Poor, and 0 for no significant classification.
4 refers to Tech Level, which I haven't really worked out yet.  For the time being, assume that it fits the general mold of the table presented in Book 3.  Probably rated 0 through 9, don't you think? Minus the air-rafts and starships, of course.

As an example, I toyed about with statting up Singapore, a highly affluent little city-state that hosts the key port between the Indian Ocean and the South China Sea.  Looking up some almanac figures, I took this stab:

Singapore : A-648NIR-9
Port type A, excellent facilities with full maintenence and repair facilities for both commercial and private craft.
Population 6, or between 1,000,000 and 10,000,000.  Singapore has a population of approximately 4.3 million.
Government type 4, Representative Democracy.
Law Level 8, possession of weapons strictly controlled, but not forbidden.  It is a notoriously stringent city that has banned non-theraputic chewing gum.
Non-agricultural, requiring large scale import of food stuffs and textiles.
Industrial, exporting huge quantities of locally produced electronic goods.
Rich.
TL 9, highly technically developed -- on par with virtually any "1st World" nation.

With this write-up, one would be able to ascertain an at-a-glance overview of the city, and could feasibly use the trade table in Book 2 to purchase or sell cargos (provided one stats up another port, of course).  It'll take a little while to get your head out of the groove of thinking in terms of planetary stats, but once the mental adaptation has been made, I think it will flow well.

What do you think?  Anyone care to stat up Manila?  Hong Kong? Bangkok?

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaInteresting.  I'd forgotten all about that one tiny paragraph.  Oh, and as a bit of trivia, my 1st edition copy here, bought in the summer of 1980, states "of one-half" where your copy states "of zero".  I'm willing to bet that your copy of Book 2 makes the change from 1/2-level skills to 0-level skills under the section for weapons expertise in the Experience section.

Mine is the 1981 second edition, and yes, it makes the change from skill-1/2 to skill-0, but I would still swear that the skill-1/2 is talked about somewhere in it.

And I just happened to notice the weapons things in Book-1

QuoteAnyway, more to the point, we should revise our Skill-0 rule to exclude personal weapon skills, all of which are automatically rated at 0-level.  Thanks for the heads-up!

!i!

Sounds good to me, though I would strongly prefer it if this applied ONLY to small arms.

Quote from: SionEwigSounds good to me, though I would strongly prefer it if this applied ONLY to small arms.

You mean the official statement from Book 1 about "in all weapons"?  Yeah.  I can see the hurt in the eyes of the well-meaning player, his finger poised above the weapons list in Book 4, Mercenary, and some poor GM having to explain why it just doesn't make sense for his 4-term Scout to be familiar with the use of a FGMP-15. :(

Hey!  How 'bout that UPP, though?  Huh?

!i!

Love the UPP, excellent job there.  Still looking at it for some fine tuning, mainly thinking that since we know (or can look up) stuff on each port, down to detailed maps, that perhaps a note section for each entry might be appropriate.

And since we do know about the ports and countries they support/are a part of, it will help a lot on the Trade side.  We will know pretty much what goods are available at many if not most ports.

Also, on a slight tangent, lots of things are going to require Import/Export liscenses and End-User certificates (especially arms and military equipment).

But love the UPP, may start some work on some of the smaller places out there.

Quote from: SionEwigLove the UPP, excellent job there.  Still looking at it for some fine tuning, mainly thinking that since we know (or can look up) stuff on each port, down to detailed maps, that perhaps a note section for each entry might be appropriate.

I expect that, unlike the spare presentation in Supplement 3, The Spinward Marches, each port entry will probably comprise a two- or three-page spread with brief history, political and social climate, geographic climate, etc.  Explanation of each entry on the UPP will probably be folded into that.

Hey, speaking of geographic climate, wouldn't it make sense to include that as a pertinent index in the UPP?  Tropical, Sub-Tropical, Arctic, Arid, etc.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaI expect that, unlike the spare presentation in Supplement 3, The Spinward Marches, each port entry will probably comprise a two- or three-page spread with brief history, political and social climate, geographic climate, etc.  Explanation of each entry on the UPP will probably be folded into that.

Hey, speaking of geographic climate, wouldn't it make sense to include that as a pertinent index in the UPP?  Tropical, Sub-Tropical, Arctic, Arid, etc.

!i!

Hmmm, yeah, I think something for the climate might be useful.  Again, followed by something of a paragraph or so within the larger entry.  Cause let's face it, some ports have some pretty big varience in their climate.

And there's a distinct difference in what they import/export and why.  It will have a definite influence in the form of trade modifiers on the Trade and Speculation table.

!i!

(P.S. The CIA World Factbook (https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/).  Learn it.  Love it.)

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaAnd there's a distinct difference in what they import/export and why.  It will have a definite influence in the form of trade modifiers on the Trade and Speculation table.

!i!

Yup, and it is coming to mind that there will probably be much less speculation than would be normal in Traveller.  Or at least much more educated speculation.

Quote(P.S. The CIA World Factbook (https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/).  Learn it.  Love it.)

Love it, use it lots. Great resource (but should not be the only one, LOL).

Quote from: SionEwigYup, and it is coming to mind that there will probably be much less speculation than would be normal in Traveller.  Or at least much more educated speculation.

You've obviously never encountered the black or grey market economies. Technically, the black market is in good which are stolen, prohibited or restricted; the grey market is goods which are quite legal and freely traded, but have taxes and so on. Those are the markets your average PCs will be wanting to deal with - because that's adventurous, just hauling a couple of hundred cars from Hong Kong to Singapore under contract from Honda with all the right paperwork and taxes paid isn't very adventurous, normally.  

When dealing with the black and grey markets, trading is very speculative. Were I GMing this, I'd make it part of the campaign.
   
"What's there for you to buy at Kowloon? Well, on the legit side there's a bunch of cars made in China under licence from Honda, a heap of DVD players, and some clothing."
"Our next port of call is Djibouti, we have to go there and meet Sheik Alabani and make our next payment. Those guys do trade with Somaliland, and Somalia, and Ethiopia. I don't think any of them will be that interested in cars, DVD players - hell, most of 'em don't have 'lectricity - and clothing, okay everyone needs clothing but we're not going to fill the whole ship with the stuff, 330 tonnes of clothing, that's mad. What about the illegit side?"
"As you know, China is not overly scrupulous about international patents and copyright. So you can score some medicines, because they're copies and no royalty fee, much cheaper. Like this flu vaccine for a dollar a hit instead of a hundred."
"Sounds good! How much for a pallet?"
"Fifty thousand. That's fifty thousand hits of the flu vaccine."
"Cool, we can flog that to the Red Cross in Djibouti for at least twenty bucks a pop, no-one's going to arrest us for "helping" the Red Cross."

And so on...

Random comment on the grey market:  Selling video games to Australia.

I'm serious.  The mark-up a lot of console makers put on game systems and games for Aussie release is completely ridiculous, to the extent that a good percentage of Aussie gamers get all their games shipped in from Asia somewhere, usually Japan, and the Aussie gov't turns kind of a blind eye to it in spite of the protests of the corporations.

You can further bump up your profit margins if you can find some really good fakes of games over in Hong Kong and China, then passing them off for legit copy prices, while still undercutting the official MSRP for retail Aussie games.

Quote from: JimBobOzYou've obviously never encountered the black or grey market economies. Technically, the black market is in good which are stolen, prohibited or restricted; the grey market is goods which are quite legal and freely traded, but have taxes and so on. Those are the markets your average PCs will be wanting to deal with - because that's adventurous, just hauling a couple of hundred cars from Hong Kong to Singapore under contract from Honda with all the right paperwork and taxes paid isn't very adventurous, normally.  

When dealing with the black and grey markets, trading is very speculative. Were I GMing this, I'd make it part of the campaign.
   
"What's there for you to buy at Kowloon? Well, on the legit side there's a bunch of cars made in China under licence from Honda, a heap of DVD players, and some clothing."
"Our next port of call is Djibouti, we have to go there and meet Sheik Alabani and make our next payment. Those guys do trade with Somaliland, and Somalia, and Ethiopia. I don't think any of them will be that interested in cars, DVD players - hell, most of 'em don't have 'lectricity - and clothing, okay everyone needs clothing but we're not going to fill the whole ship with the stuff, 330 tonnes of clothing, that's mad. What about the illegit side?"
"As you know, China is not overly scrupulous about international patents and copyright. So you can score some medicines, because they're copies and no royalty fee, much cheaper. Like this flu vaccine for a dollar a hit instead of a hundred."
"Sounds good! How much for a pallet?"
"Fifty thousand. That's fifty thousand hits of the flu vaccine."
"Cool, we can flog that to the Red Cross in Djibouti for at least twenty bucks a pop, no-one's going to arrest us for "helping" the Red Cross."

And so on...

No, actually I have encountered both black and grey markets a bit.  Spent a number of years working down in South America, Columbia and Brazil mostly but occasional trips and surveys into most of the area.

My statement about speculation was purely about LEGAL cargos.  And yes, if I was running this, I'd have (or at least allow) the players to work on the black and grey markets as much as they wanted.  At leasy until some Customs Official who just had a big fight with his wife comes around!:eek:

Mate, the only reason to have legal cargos is to provide cover for the illegal ones!

Quote from: fonkaygarryAny ideas on how to get an adventure going with this setting?  There's no shortage of crazy shit to drop PCs into with this, I'm just at a loss for how to present or pace it.

Seems pretty much the same as the classic Traveller crew of misfits on a leaky patched rustbucket ship. Also the same as an Age of Sail game. Common need for cash, some sort of past that led you to now, and at least one week between trading ports.

If the trading system follows most Traveller ones the party will need to supplement their income from legal trade by other means, i.e. Adventure!

Traveller isn't a lot of things but it *is* quite playable with a focus on player action.

Quote from: SionEwigAdditional "skill" that came to mind that would be very necessary (and one that Traveller almost never brings up) - Languages!

JTAS#16, "Languages in Traveller" expands upon dialects, fluency, and language useage in Traveller.

MT's Linguistics skill is 1 rank = 1 language known.

• Trading flavor: TNE has a nice starport exchange rate chart that could come in handy. Also has (a variant of TW2K's?) maintainence guildlines. Traveller d20 (T20) IIRC also has some similar guidelines as well as a good trading system that's more detailed than CT/MT but more conducive to adventures than full-blown Far Trader. It does require a lot of dice rolling but there is at least one T20 trading program out there.
  
  
• Variations on weapons, armour, and equipment: try Striker/AHL/Snapshot and T4's Emperor's Arsenal. Emperor's Arsenal in particular covers the technology levels this game would be at in better detail than core Traveller. Not 100% sure if damage levels are the same as say CT or MT. TNE's FF&S along with the blackpowder design sequences in the World Tamer's Handbook could also be used though it may produce different results. I believe G^3 has been mentioned up thread, another useful tool.
  
  
• UWPs: take your pick of world detail from Book 6, DGP's world books, TNE's World Tamer's Handbook, GT's First In, GURPS Space, etc.. For that third world feel take a page from Hard Times, TNE, and 1248 and run ports through a custom Collapse procedure.
  
  
• Metagaming & tradestuff stats: TNE's World Tamer's Handbook has a metagame on bootstrapping a colony along with stats on basic materials. Good for trading info as well as plotting on a Company settlement/colony or remote community. T4's Pocket Empires could generate ruling families & elites as well as metagaming polities. GT's Far Trader has been mentioned upthread IIRC and also doubles as a crash course in economic principles. :)

If I was going to run this style of TRAVELLER game ....I'd still use the GURPS game mechanics, mainly because of the real world reference available in 20 years plus of GURPS books.

 Also the idea can be easily overlapped with an Illuminati themed vcampaign or secret in-game.

- E.W.C.

Quote from: KoltarIf I was going to run this style of TRAVELLER game ....I'd still use the GURPS game mechanics, mainly because of the real world reference available in 20 years plus of GURPS books.

Uh-oh.  You're brooching a topic for another thread -- Is Traveller a rules system, or a setting?  Somewhere, months back, there was just such a thread right here (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2506&page=1&highlight=traveller).  Brief, but one of Nox's good ones.  To the point, though, you're right (as was SionEwig's suggestion a few pages back), that a robust system that already models the modern world would work well.  In fact, two pre-eminent philosophies could dominate this project, too -- one that promotes the spirit of the setting through contemporary mechanics, the other that promotes an ideal through nostalgic grognardism. :) I confess that I've fallen firmly into the latter camp, though that in no way diminishes competing ideas (heck, somewhere a couple of weeks back, I was briefly considering Modern d20 Modern).  The real point is, once you have the setting in your head, figure out a way to play it and make it work for you.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaTo the point, though, you're right (as was SionEwig's suggestion a few pages back), that a robust system that already models the modern world would work well.  In fact, two pre-eminent philosophies could dominate this project, too -- one that promotes the spirit of the setting through contemporary mechanics, the other that promotes an ideal through nostalgic grognardism. :) I confess that I've fallen firmly into the latter camp, though that in no way diminishes competing ideas (heck, somewhere a couple of weeks back, I was briefly considering Modern d20 Modern).

This I think would make a very good thread, especially as to why Contemporary/Modern settings seem to attract the systems they do.

QuoteThe real point is, once you have the setting in your head, figure out a way to play it and make it work for you.

!i!

This is exactly right.  Many SYSTEMS are possible for use in this (or most any) SETTING.  And let's face it, the setting is more important (at least to me).

Seems appropriate to post this.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/6395033.stm


Pirates seize UN ship off Somalia
Map of Somalia showing Puntland
Pirates are reported to have hijacked a UN-chartered cargo ship delivering food aid to north-eastern Somalia.

The ship, the MV Rozen, had just delivered a cargo to Somalia's Puntland region when the pirates struck, a World Food Programme official said.

There have been no reports of demands from the pirates and it is not known if any of the 12 crew have been injured.

Piracy has become rampant off the coast of Somalia, which has had no stable central government for years.

A World Food Programme spokeswoman, Stephanie Savariaud, said there were deep concerns for the safety of the crew.

"We know it has been hijacked by pirates but we do not know how many pirates there are," she said.

Ms Savariaud said the Rozen had delivered 1,800 tonnes of food aid to the semi-autonomous Puntland region of Somalia and was returning to its home port of Mombasa in Kenya.

And here I was just starting to stat out Mombasa and Mogadisu tonight.

!i!

And another adventure idea for this, one that we haven't thought of.

QuoteThis repo man drives off with ocean freighters

It's a rare specialty that can be dangerous, given parts of the world in
which he must operate.

By Dan Weikel, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer, March 1, 2007

IF repossessing a used Chevrolet can be tricky, consider retrieving the
Aztec Express, a 700-foot cargo ship under guard in Haiti as civil
unrest spread through the country.

Only a few repo men possess the guile and resourcefulness for such a
job. One of them is F. Max Hardberger, of Lacombe, La. Since 1991, the
58-year-old attorney and ship captain has surreptitiously sailed away
about a dozen freighters from ports around the world.

"I'm sure there are those who would like to add me to a list of modern
pirates of the Caribbean, but I do whatever I can to protect the legal
rights of my clients," said Hardberger, whose company, Vessel
Extractions in New Orleans, has negotiated the releases of another dozen
cargo ships and prevented the seizures of many others.

His line of work regularly takes him to a corner of the maritime
industry still plagued by pirates, underhanded business practices and
corrupt government officials, waters the Aztec Express sailed right into.

The saga began in 2003 when the vessel's Greek owner died and his
company did not keep up payments on a $3.3-million mortgage.

Bahamian court records show that an American businessman who had used
the vessel to haul 235 used cars from the northeastern United States to
Haiti did not pay the charter fee, contributing to the loan default.

Once the ship arrived in the Haitian port of Miragoane, the businessman
bribed judicial officials to seize the vessel and sell it to him in a
rigged auction, according to court records.

Meanwhile, a violent rebellion threatened to topple President
Jean-Bertrand Aristide, making it impossible for the lender or the
owner's relatives to contest the sale.

The condition of the Aztec Express further complicated matters. Its main
engines were out of commission, having been idle and untended for months.

Hardberger was hired by the New Jersey-based mortgage holder. He flew to
Haiti and drove with an armed bodyguard to Miragoane.

He gathered two important pieces of information. Watchmen stationed on
the Aztec Express sold fuel from the vessel on the black market. Second,
port authorities had a cellphone, but they could use it only at the
harbor's soccer field, where cellular service was reliable.

Hardberger managed to get the guards off the ship by offering to buy
fuel. When they came down to the dock to discuss the transaction,
off-duty Haitian riot police hired by Hardberger held them at bay.



MEANWHILE, an oceangoing tugboat also hired by Hardberger slipped into
port and backed up to the Aztec Express. Under a full moon, the crew
began cutting the anchor chains with blowtorches.

In case harbor officials noticed and tried to call for help on their
cellphone, Hardberger had paid a witch doctor $100 to cast spells on the
port's soccer field. The witch doctor marked the field with gray powder,
a clear warning to believers in voodoo, the nation's dominant religion.
No call ever went out.

Once the freighter was freed, the tug hauled the ship out of port and
headed for the Bahamas, where British-based maritime laws give a high
priority to lenders' claims.

The next day, however, another tug intercepted the ship. Its captain
said he had been sent to take over the operation.

Hardberger's team checked with the marine towing company hired for the
repossession and found that no relief boat had been sent. It then
summoned the Bahamian coast guard, which detained the other tug on
suspicion of attempted piracy.

Hardberger said the second tugboat had been sent by the American
businessman when he learned that the Aztec Express had been pulled out
of Haiti.

In the Bahamas, a court upheld the ship's repossession and ordered its
sale to settle the lender's claim.

"Haiti has a corrupt legal system where cronyism and corruption are the
order of the day," Judge John Lyons wrote in his decision. "Justice is
dispensed according to who can pay the going rate."

Hardberger said small-to-medium-size cargo ships such as the Aztec
Express are among the most vulnerable to chicanery and illegal seizures.

Often operated by small shipping lines, these modern-day tramp steamers
regularly visit developing countries plagued by unstable and corrupt
governments.

In the worst-off nations, Hardberger said, it is possible to seize a
$10-million ship with a $100 bribe to a justice of the peace.

"You need more than what an attorney can do in some of these countries,"
said John Lightbown, a ship owner who recently sought Hardberger's help
to avert a seizure in Haiti.

"Deals can be bought and sold under the table. Max gets into the middle
of things. He's been around the block," he said.

"I don't know anyone who does this, except for Max," said Jonathan S.
Spencer, a New York-based maritime adjuster who determines the monetary
losses of shipping accidents. "It's hard to say how much people like him
are used. They work in gray areas of the law. They are very discreet,
and the people who hire them are discreet as well."

WITH his graying hair, walrus mustache and moderate build, Hardberger
doesn't fit the profile of a swashbuckler.

He taught history and English at parochial schools in Louisiana and
Mississippi after graduating from the University of New Orleans and
earning a master's degree from the University of Iowa Writers' Workshop.

Outside the classroom, he worked on Gulf Coast oil rigs and the vessels
that served them. For several years in the 1980s he skippered a cargo
ship in the Caribbean and later wrote "Freighter Captain," a novel based
on the experience.

In 1998, after a four-year correspondence course, he passed the
California bar exam on the first try. He now practices maritime law,
mostly in the Caribbean, but regularly comes to Southern California to
handle cases.

Hardberger fell into the ship extraction business in 1991 while managing
two freighters for Morgan Price & Co., a wastepaper exporter in Miami.

Morgan Price had chartered one of the vessels, the Patric M, to a
Peruvian company that used it to carry steel to Venezuela.

When the company refused to pay Morgan Price $80,000, the Miami firm
instructed the captain to dock at Puerto Cabello in Venezuela, its
destination, but not unload the cargo.

In retaliation, Hardberger said, the Peruvian firm bribed court
officials to detain the Patric M in port and allow the company to
operate it. A judge even jailed the master and chief engineer, but not
before the engineer was forced at gunpoint to power up the vessel's
cranes so unloading could proceed.

Hardberger flew to Venezuela. He says he persuaded court officials to
put the captain and chief engineer under house arrest at a hotel.

Hardberger then met with the two men. The captain refused to participate
in the repossession, fearing for his safety. When the chief engineer
agreed to help, he and Hardberger slipped out of the hotel through a
laundry room.

In the evening, they took a taxi to the waterfront and walked along the
port wall that was topped with barbed wire, finally gaining entry by
crawling under a railroad gate.

Once inside the port, Hardberger said, they hid in doorways, culverts
and the shadows of shipping containers to elude guards and stevedores.

"Extractions are a big risk. If you get caught, you are looking at a
very serious charge," Hardberger said. "In some countries, you could
wait two or three years for trial and end up with a 20-year sentence."

At the unguarded ship, both men climbed the gangway, and Hardberger
found the first mate, a heavy-set Panamanian, who agreed to cooperate.

The Patric M's crew, which had not been replaced by the Peruvian
company, was assembled in the mess for a briefing. Everyone signed on to
the plan.

Later in the evening, the crew cut the ship's lines from the deck. The
main engine came to life with a few deep thumps.

Proceeding at "dead slow ahead," Hardberger steered the 340-foot cargo
ship past a naval base and through the narrow harbor entrance.

En route to Aruba, Hardberger said, he received a radio message saying
Venezuela had notified Interpol — the global police agency — that the
ship had departed without permission.

He soon found an isolated anchorage off the island of Vieques, Puerto
Rico. The crew ground off the original name and identification numbers
that are stamped into the steel of every cargo ship when it is built.

All the Patric M's documents — plans, ledgers, log books and
certifications — were copied and altered to reflect its new name. The
originals were destroyed, including its Panamanian registration forms.

Then, Hardberger said, he found a country willing to register stateless
vessels, no questions asked. He declined to name the country, but there
were only a few at the time, such as Honduras, Vanuatu and the Marshall
Islands. International regulatory agencies have since banned the practice.

About a year after acquiring its new identity, the Patric M was sold by
Morgan Price.

"International waters," Hardberger said, "are worse than the Wild West.
In many ways, there is little or no opportunity to avenge the wrongs
people have done to you."

For the last 3ý years, Hardberger has operated Vessel Extractions with
Michael L. Bono, an admiralty law attorney and one of his former high
school students.



BEFORE repossessing a ship, they make sure the vessel has been seized
illegally and the claims filed against it are fraudulent.

If negotiations and legal methods fail, the company will proceed with an
extraction, a step that might include payments to local officials if a
nation's government is corrupt.

Those payments, Hardberger said, are made under exceptions in the
federal Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, which prohibits U.S. citizens
from bribing foreign officials to retain or obtain business.

"In a rogue state, you can't tie your hands behind you," Hardberger
said. "It is common to find that the court system is rife with corruption."

Extracting a ship can cost a client $100,000 or more.

If a repossession is requested, Hardberger and his team quietly enter
the country involved. They seek out friendly officials and trusted local
contacts such as ship agents who tend to a vessel's logistical needs in
port.

"You need to pick up clues about the ship and what is said in the bars,
at the ship chandlers and in the local whorehouses," Hardberger said.
"Crews are not that sophisticated and talk about their orders and
departure times. You can really keep track of a vessel this way."

Hardberger said he does not carry a firearm, though he has hired
bodyguards, as he did with the Aztec Express. Stealth and trickery are
the preferred methods.

"I do not want my face seen," he added.

Such tactics were employed in April 1999, when Hardberger was asked to
extract a 280-foot cargo ship that had put in for repairs at Drapetsona,
a part of the Greek port of Piraeus. "It's a place," he says, "where
ship names are repainted quickly."

The small freighter was Hungarian and, despite the fall of the Soviet
Union, was still equipped with a commissar's office. It contained a
secret radio room and the complete works of Lenin.

When the repair company charged four times the agreed-upon price to fix
a huge dent in the stern, Hardberger said, the owner refused to pay.
Port officials then denied the vessel a clearance to leave.

Hardberger and the ship's agent got permission to move the ship to a
port anchorage under the ruse that she needed refueling. The new
location would make it possible for a crew to reach the vessel by launch.

Then, with everything in place, Hardberger waited for the weekend of
Greek Easter, a religious festival marked by rich pageantry and
widespread celebration.

To help the coast guard enjoy the event, Hardberger arranged for the
ship agent to drop off several cases of ouzo at the station, which
overlooked the port.

At 2 a.m. on a Sunday, a crew boarded the unattended freighter and
sailed it out of the harbor unnoticed.

Hardberger, who coordinated the operation from shore, sat in a seaman's
bar in Piraeus with friends, including the ship's agent. In the ancient
port, they toasted their success with vodka.

Ah, repo men.  I was just reading a story about a maritime security company -- originally created to provide on-board armed defense -- had branched into repossession work.  Kind of a fall from grace for them.

!i!

I missed a game session this week since we had the Autumn Geektogether. So I'm hankerin' after some gamin'. When that happens, I get to thinking about all sorts of campaigns I could be running... and I remembered this one.

Here's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPox0rwyQps) a YouTube clip from some movie where pirates attack a cargo ship, and the crew tries to fight them off. They're speaking French, but it's an action movie - boiling water in the face of a pirate is an international message.

And this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNaAnYLvFQo&NR=1) would be a great intro clip for a campaign :)

Now that I'm only playing and not GMing in my face-to-face group, and that I have GAMERS (http://sixlettersystem.pbwiki.com/) all expanded and pretty much finished, it might be time to run this kind of game online, I think.

And with so very much inspiration in the news this past year from a certain coast of Africa.  Don't forget about the carrier group headed over there for antipiracy action.:D

Necroing this thread because this will be the campaign I run from Wednesday onwards :D

Holy necromancy, Batman! :D

Wonderful! This is a great idea and I'm glad to have more to read about it.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;314789Necroing this thread because this will be the campaign I run from Wednesday onwards :D

Seriously jealous. It's a genius concept for a campaign.

You know we're gonna want to hear what ruleset you're using and good shit like that.

It was this thread that laid the seed that grew into GAMERS. It got me thinking about classic Trav, buying the reprints, finding the rules a bit wonky and wanting to "improve" them (ie make them fit my personal tastes). So naturally I will use that.

I had my first look at GAMERS by the way. :o Looks pretty good! I like d6 mechanics.

Do you know Spellcraft & Swordplay?
It's an OD&D retroclone using d6 mechanics. Here's the Free PDF (http://www.lulu.com/content/e-book/spellcraft-swordplay-basic-e-book/7394414).

Check out the Anime Black Lagoon (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=6159) its about modern day pirates in the South China Sea.

Someone on another forum linked to this thread, which in all honesty I had completely forgotten about.

It's still a fun concept, and events in more recent years would provide even more opportunities for adventurous types to make a profit, if they are, shall we say, of a more malleable ethical disposition.

Usually not a fan of necros, but thanks 'cause HOLY CRAP that's an awesome idea.

I'd really like to see it as a full game in its own right though, not just a modern age veneer on top of Traveller.  Maybe I'll take this on after I finish my current game.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on November 29, 2006, 10:34:40 PM

Madness or genius? What do you reckon?

Neither. But that is a smuggling game not a trading game.  FAR more fun than a standard Trav trading game.

By modern could you also mean Pulp? Tramp Steamer?

I'm a RL merchant seaman.  For anyone that's interested, I could give a lot of insight on how modern shipping works.  I'm happy to answer questions about it.  But, on to what I think is relevant to this thread.

First, ships don't disappear between ports, they are tracked by satellites and radio through their entire voyage by giving GPS updates by both HF burst transmission and satellite UHF burst at a minimum of every hour.  (This burst contains location, speed, direction, ship's ID, and any report-able condition of the vessel.)  On top of which, various governments will focus tracking in various ways on any ship that catches their attention.  It is a big ocean but you'd be shocked on how much of it is monitored well.  Dipping over the horizon and disappearing isn't easy.

The scene in Lord of War where they paint a new name on the ship and change the flag wouldn't work due to transponder codes in all the electronics and IMO numbers literally welded onto the hull in several places.  I'm not saying they couldn't spoof all of that but it would take weeks of work to pull it off.  To be able to change the identity of a ship so that it will pass through a customs or Coast Guard inspection would be a massive amount of work for both physically changing the ship and then making all the paperwork match.  IRL efforts to do this get caught all the time. 

Every ship has to have a manifest on the ship, at the HQ of the shipping company or dispatching company that loaded the ship, and at the last port they visited.  Only cargo marked with diplomatic seals are exempt from detailed inventory on the manifest.   

Lastly, ships have to register a voyage with intended route, ports to visit, and expected schedule.  Deviate from the rout and you will have to answer for it.  There are legal and illegal ways to vary from the registered voyage and fines and prison sentences can happen for the illegal deviations. 

You can actually monitor ships through their public information on vesselfinder.com and marinetraffic.com.

Tramp ships are still a thing.  Contrary to what I've read in this thread, most tramps are not general cargo ships but specialty ships.  Heavy lift ships are ships with cranes capable of 500t lifts like The Ocean Freedom.  https://www./vessels/details/9506722  Semi submersible ships are vessels that can carry other vessels by flooding ballast tanks, getting under their load, and re-floating.  https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/details/9186338  Specialty tankers carry liquid cargo other than typical fuel.

Most standard cargo ships and tank ships have a regular route and most cargo can by shuttled via the comprehensive network of ships and ports that exist now.

I am not trying to discourage a career in smuggling in your RPG.  If you're looking at doing it realistically, then look how the drug trade functions internationally.  Rather than being freebooters, you'll be in the business of packing shipping containers to get by scrutiny, offering up bribes and blackmailing officials and ship's captains, and generally manipulating the situations in legitimate shipping ports and vessels.  If you are hell bent on running your own vessel, then take inspiration from the narco submarines and semi-submersibles.

Anyway, I hope this is useful to someone.   

Quote from: BadApple on October 13, 2023, 05:54:36 PM

I am not trying to discourage a career in smuggling in your RPG.  If you're looking at doing it realistically, then look how the drug trade functions internationally.   

This worlds oceans and interstellar space travel are VASTLY different.  Looking how trade happens on Earth may or may not have any bearing on what happens in a Traveller type environment.  Perhaps if you use the default setting.

Quote from: BadApple on October 13, 2023, 05:54:36 PM
<snip>
Anyway, I hope this is useful to someone.   

Thank you. This is actually both cool and useful information. Even if we don't use it in an RPG it makes neat information for a potential story or novel. It was my thought earlier on that blackmailing or bribing someone was probably easier than redoing everything about a ship.

Quote from: BadApple on October 13, 2023, 05:54:36 PM
I'm a RL merchant seaman.  For anyone that's interested, I could give a lot of insight on how modern shipping works.  I'm happy to answer questions about it.  But, on to what I think is relevant to this thread.
<snip>

Is there a book (fiction or otherwise) or website you recommend that gives a realistic-ish idea of your work?

Quote from: BadApple on October 13, 2023, 05:54:36 PM
First, ships don't disappear between ports, they are tracked by satellites and radio through their entire voyage

Oil smuggling and bunkering for sanctions-busting, along with illegal fishing on a vast scale (which is how we got Somali piracy, with EU/Japanese ships stealing all their fish, Somali fishermen found alternate employment), suggests that this is not always true.

But a very helpful comment, thankyou.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on October 13, 2023, 07:44:53 PM

Quote from: BadApple on October 13, 2023, 05:54:36 PM
First, ships don't disappear between ports, they are tracked by satellites and radio through their entire voyage

Oil smuggling and bunkering for sanctions-busting, along with illegal fishing on a vast scale (which is how we got Somali piracy, with EU/Japanese ships stealing all their fish, Somali fishermen found alternate employment), suggests that this is not always true.

But a very helpful comment, thankyou.

Oooh! Same question, anything in written form about this? (I have divergent reading interests...)

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on October 13, 2023, 07:44:53 PM

Quote from: BadApple on October 13, 2023, 05:54:36 PM
First, ships don't disappear between ports, they are tracked by satellites and radio through their entire voyage

Oil smuggling and bunkering for sanctions-busting, along with illegal fishing on a vast scale (which is how we got Somali piracy, with EU/Japanese ships stealing all their fish, Somali fishermen found alternate employment), suggests that this is not always true.

But a very helpful comment, thankyou.

First, there isn't a global maritime law enforcement agency.  It's done ad hoc by navies, coast guards, and customs around the world.  As such, there's lots of holes in enforcement.  Bribes to local officials and favors to dirty governments allows criminal networks to operate.  I'd like to say that it's an issue for poor countries but even the G7 nations are involved. 

Believe me, some of the ships that are involved in criminal enterprise are known and will get locked down as soon as they hit a port or just enter territorial waters of an authority that has an interest in enforcement.

In some cases, there is real effort to disguise ships.  Stolen vessels are sometimes used and the criminals will go so far as to do all the things I mentions to make it look like another ship altogether. 

There are thousands of vessels that operate on open water.  No one is going to watch them all 100% of the time.  Shenanigans do happen but if you have been identified as a vessel of interest it's likely you will eventually be boarded and get caught.

Can you run a smuggling operations between N. Korea and Indonesia?  Yes, if you grease the right palms.  Are you going to run a route between Seattle and Pyongyang? No unless you're underwritten by the US State Dept.

If I was going to smuggle iPhones into N. Korea, I would send them to Gebal Ali, UAE then to Pakistan, and then by grain ship to N. Korea.  This would bypass a lot of the sanction controls.  I would also say that you're going to have to engage in a bunch of money laundering to be able to spend it freely in the international financial sector.  I wouldn't even try to get that money into the US, Canada, UK or Germany.

Quote from: Tod13 on October 13, 2023, 07:13:36 PM
Is there a book (fiction or otherwise) or website you recommend that gives a realistic-ish idea of your work?

There's a few books I'd recommend. 

   Two Years Before the Mast - Richard M. Dana
   Ashley's Book of Knots - Clifford W. Ashley
   U-Boat 977 - Heinz Schaeffer
   Any book by Captain Frederick Marryat
   USN Basic Military Requirements NAVEDTRA 14325
   Merchant Marine Officer's Handbook

Quote from: Scooter on October 13, 2023, 06:55:18 PM

Quote from: BadApple on October 13, 2023, 05:54:36 PM

I am not trying to discourage a career in smuggling in your RPG.  If you're looking at doing it realistically, then look how the drug trade functions internationally.   

This worlds oceans and interstellar space travel are VASTLY different.  Looking how trade happens on Earth may or may not have any bearing on what happens in a Traveller type environment.  Perhaps if you use the default setting.

This comment was less than worthless. 

Space commerce would most definitely take on a lot of characteristics of maritime trade.  How much?  Dunno, there's a lot of new tech and techniques that could be developed beyond our ability to predict.  However, what happens now is an excellent model to work from to make an educated guess.   

Quote from: BadApple on October 13, 2023, 09:37:24 PM

This comment was less than worthless. 

Space commerce would most definitely take on a lot of characteristics of maritime trade.  How much?  Dunno, there's a lot of new tech and techniques that could be developed beyond our ability to predict.  However, what happens now is an excellent model to work from to make an educated guess.

Wrong brainless git.  It is an axiomatic comment.  Now rent at least a 5th grade education.

Quote from: Scooter on October 13, 2023, 09:41:54 PM

Quote from: BadApple on October 13, 2023, 09:37:24 PM

This comment was less than worthless. 

Space commerce would most definitely take on a lot of characteristics of maritime trade.  How much?  Dunno, there's a lot of new tech and techniques that could be developed beyond our ability to predict.  However, what happens now is an excellent model to work from to make an educated guess.

Wrong brainless git.  It is an axiomatic comment.  Now rent at least a 5th grade education.

At this point I believe that you are only here to insult people and start fights.  You really don't contribute in any meaningful way.

Quote from: BadApple on October 13, 2023, 09:45:37 PM

Quote from: Scooter on October 13, 2023, 09:41:54 PM

Quote from: BadApple on October 13, 2023, 09:37:24 PM

This comment was less than worthless. 

Space commerce would most definitely take on a lot of characteristics of maritime trade.  How much?  Dunno, there's a lot of new tech and techniques that could be developed beyond our ability to predict.  However, what happens now is an excellent model to work from to make an educated guess.

Wrong brainless git.  It is an axiomatic comment.  Now rent at least a 5th grade education.

At this point I believe that you are only here to insult people and start fights.  You really don't contribute in any meaningful way.

At this point you are an idiot.  Thinking that interstellar trade is going to be like trade across our oceans.  Why would you think that?

Quote from: BadApple on October 13, 2023, 09:37:24 PM

Quote from: Tod13 on October 13, 2023, 07:13:36 PM
Is there a book (fiction or otherwise) or website you recommend that gives a realistic-ish idea of your work?

There's a few books I'd recommend. 

   Two Years Before the Mast - Richard M. Dana
   Ashley's Book of Knots - Clifford W. Ashley
   U-Boat 977 - Heinz Schaeffer
   Any book by Captain Frederick Marryat
   USN Basic Military Requirements NAVEDTRA 14325
   Merchant Marine Officer's Handbook

Oooh! Thank you very much. I've been reading a lot about PT Boats. https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/CloseQuarters/index.html (https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/CloseQuarters/index.html)

Quote from: Scooter on October 13, 2023, 09:47:13 PM

Quote from: BadApple on October 13, 2023, 09:45:37 PM

Quote from: Scooter on October 13, 2023, 09:41:54 PM

Quote from: BadApple on October 13, 2023, 09:37:24 PM

This comment was less than worthless. 

Space commerce would most definitely take on a lot of characteristics of maritime trade.  How much?  Dunno, there's a lot of new tech and techniques that could be developed beyond our ability to predict.  However, what happens now is an excellent model to work from to make an educated guess.

Wrong brainless git.  It is an axiomatic comment.  Now rent at least a 5th grade education.

At this point I believe that you are only here to insult people and start fights.  You really don't contribute in any meaningful way.

At this point you are an idiot.  Thinking that interstellar trade is going to be like trade across our oceans.  Why would you think that?

Let me find my pack of Crayola so I can make this easy for you.

Interstellar trade is going to be about moving a product from a source to a customer.  Those doing it are going to be motivated to fill a demand in return for a reward; one could assume that the reward would be that of a financial return. 

The source location would have a vested interest in not allowing anything that is demanded locally from leaving in an unfettered way therefore it can be assumed that there will be some form of authority to ensure this by inspecting out-bound stuff.  They would also be interested preventing contraband from leaving to keep local crime from turning into criminal enterprise and to prevent diplomatic problems.  Finally, they would have an interest in preventing out bound items from ending up in the hands of those that the source location feel are a threat to them.  The customer location will have a vested interest in making sure that inbound items are safe, from reliable sources, and will not have a negative impact locally.  Both locations will be well served if they have the ability to communicate their locations requirements and demands about any material going between them.  They will also be well served by taking measures to ensure that the products going between them are not tampered with by a third party in transit.  In this interest, it can be assumed that there will be a process of inspections, documentation, containerization, and validation to ensure the whole process is done properly.

The actual conveyance of product will most likely be done with some form of long range vehicle.  This vehicle will most likely be of some level of complexity necessitating skilled individuals to operate it and maintain it.  Some of these individuals will most likely have to go on this trip with the vessel to ensure it gets to it's destination properly.  These individual will most likely have to be vetted for both competency and security.  The vehicle will have to accommodate the living requirements of these skilled individuals taking the trip.

The vehicle will most likely need some way to identify itself to locations it visits so that the locations know that they are trustworthy and to know how to accommodate the vehicle properly.  There may be multiple vehicles with individually differing requirements.  Locations will have to have facilities, equipment, and supplies to support these vehicles.  Different products will probably have different handling needs as well.

So with all of this, I can either reach up my ass and pull something out to explain how all this works in setting or I can look at some RL activity that looks like this.  In RL, two things look a lot like what I've described above; sea cargo and air cargo.  You know what?  Both sea cargo and air cargo are nearly identical in so many important ways.  Why don't we look at where they over lap and use that as a pattern to make an educated guess as to how interstellar trade might be done.

With this, I'm done with you.  You're combative and insulting when you don't need to be.

I've always had the impression that Traveller rules and physics were written to make the game emulate the 1800s colonial/imperial era, but in space.  So of course there are similarities between Traveller commerce and maritime commerce, though perhaps less so in the modern age.  In light of BadApple's input, If I were concerned with making this idea as realistic as possible (which I'm actually not very) I might set it sometime between 1950 and 1970.

Quote from: BadApple on October 13, 2023, 10:36:49 PM
So with all of this, I can either reach up my ass and pull something out to explain how all this works in setting or I can look at some RL activity that looks like this.  In RL, two things look a lot like what I've described above; sea cargo and air cargo.  You know what?  Both sea cargo and air cargo are nearly identical in so many important ways.  Why don't we look at where they over lap and use that as a pattern to make an educated guess as to how interstellar trade might be done.

Kinda unfortunate how this exchange as gone especially since you've brought up a very interesting comparison. I wonder if perhaps both might be taken into consideration.

Sea cargo definitely has a longer deliver time and, you can ship more at one time and generally accept losses a bit easier.

Air cargo better be worth it because space in a much, much faster delivery schedule comes at a premium (perhaps also with greater security).

It might be interesting to consider if the differences in methodologies cannot be simulated somehow in space - that some things can be 'hauled' that massively out mass a space ship but experience greater risk, like transporting giant hunks of ice, vs specialty goods that have to be contained within protective storage bays.

Quote from: Lynn on October 14, 2023, 02:35:32 AM

Quote from: BadApple on October 13, 2023, 10:36:49 PM
So with all of this, I can either reach up my ass and pull something out to explain how all this works in setting or I can look at some RL activity that looks like this.  In RL, two things look a lot like what I've described above; sea cargo and air cargo.  You know what?  Both sea cargo and air cargo are nearly identical in so many important ways.  Why don't we look at where they over lap and use that as a pattern to make an educated guess as to how interstellar trade might be done.

Kinda unfortunate how this exchange as gone especially since you've brought up a very interesting comparison. I wonder if perhaps both might be taken into consideration.

Sea cargo definitely has a longer deliver time and, you can ship more at one time and generally accept losses a bit easier.

Air cargo better be worth it because space in a much, much faster delivery schedule comes at a premium (perhaps also with greater security).

It might be interesting to consider if the differences in methodologies cannot be simulated somehow in space - that some things can be 'hauled' that massively out mass a space ship but experience greater risk, like transporting giant hunks of ice, vs specialty goods that have to be contained within protective storage bays.

Depends on the science in the universe, I guess. Meaning, if the real-world speeds are close enough to the same and so are the FTL speeds, then you might as well send everything by the cheapest route.

You have small Serenity, delivering small, high value items and talent quickly. [Shipped by Air]
And then you have the Nostromo delivering literally mountains of whatever (plus biological impurities). [Shipped by Container Vessel]

I would guess the smaller ship is easier to bribe or get in "under the radar" with.
While the larger ship would definitely be a paperwork shuffle to smuggle with.

Quote from: Lynn on October 14, 2023, 02:35:32 AM

Quote from: BadApple on October 13, 2023, 10:36:49 PM
So with all of this, I can either reach up my ass and pull something out to explain how all this works in setting or I can look at some RL activity that looks like this.  In RL, two things look a lot like what I've described above; sea cargo and air cargo.  You know what?  Both sea cargo and air cargo are nearly identical in so many important ways.  Why don't we look at where they over lap and use that as a pattern to make an educated guess as to how interstellar trade might be done.

Kinda unfortunate how this exchange as gone especially since you've brought up a very interesting comparison. I wonder if perhaps both might be taken into consideration.

Sea cargo definitely has a longer deliver time and, you can ship more at one time and generally accept losses a bit easier.

Air cargo better be worth it because space in a much, much faster delivery schedule comes at a premium (perhaps also with greater security).

It might be interesting to consider if the differences in methodologies cannot be simulated somehow in space - that some things can be 'hauled' that massively out mass a space ship but experience greater risk, like transporting giant hunks of ice, vs specialty goods that have to be contained within protective storage bays.

It is unfortunate that the exchange with Scooter went the way it did.  A lot of interactions with him go that way and it's not just me.

There is so much overlap in how things are done between air travel and sea travel in the modern world. 

The technologies are very similar, particularly where they are trying to solve the same problems.  Navigation is identical and use variants of the same equipment, though aircraft have the added element of altitude.  Communication and identification are the same technologies just running on different frequencies.  I could go down the line.  In most cases where their needs overlap the difference between what is used on a ship and what's used on an aircraft comes down to weight, size, and material and not in function.  A radio is a radio, a GPS receiver is a GPS receiver.  Both move through fluids, both use control surfaces, both use similar structural design concepts. etc. etc.

Putting that aside, you could compare the operational parts.  Customs and customs compliance operates exactly the same for both.  Both broadly use the same procedure for obtaining legal permission for international travel.   Both broadly use the same procedures for coming into and leaving port.  (Yes, there are harbor traffic control centers that operate nearly identical to air traffic control centers.)

Modern sea cargo routes and schedules are very comparable to commercial aviation routes and schedules.  Obviously, business jets and special transport aircraft (super guppy) don't have regular routes and neither do specialty ships like the ones I mentioned before.

There are small specialty boats for use in remote locations like island chains just like there's bush planes in Alaska. 

I believe that all of this would inform how interstellar travel and trade would operate.  New technologies and new techniques are needed to handle challenges unique to operating in a vacuum and being weightless but why reinvent the wheel when there's already functional ways to handle mundane things.  Who knows how communication, navigation, and tracking tech will evolve with it but it will still serve the same purposes.  I am certain that we currently have the ability to do traffic control for a star system similar to how we do air traffic control and maritime traffic control.  As such, I believe that interactions between spacecraft and the system authorities would look a lot like what happens with international travel today. 

Between major populated systems, large liner ships would carry passengers and cargo.  From the major systems, feeder ships would take spur routes to lesser populated worlds where liner service would be under utilized.  Specialty ships would operate where some types of cargo would pose unique challenges and therefore would also unlikely be committed to a regular scheduled route.  (Maybe pre-built starport pieces or processed uranium fuel for the 50 year refuel of the local reactors?)  I could also see the need for something like exclusive business transport of VIPs, dignitaries, couriers, and specialists.  In the same ways that remote islands and remote wilderness locations have special transportation needs, I could see remote locations like frontier worlds having specialty ships service them.   

It doesn't need to be locked down hard.  Even today there are people that use privately owned aircraft and privately own boats for business purposes.  There are independent push pilots that own and operate their own bush plane.  There are guys with 60ft landing craft that earn a living in island chains around the world.  Not to mention excursion trips, hunting trips, charters, and all manner of activities that aren't suitable for being integrated into large commercial operations.   
     

Quote from: BadApple on October 14, 2023, 10:07:31 AM
There is so much overlap in how things are done between air travel and sea travel in the modern world. 

That's true, and I think more convergence in space based solutions.

Quote from: BadApple on October 14, 2023, 10:07:31 AM
Putting that aside, you could compare the operational parts.  Customs and customs compliance operates exactly the same for both.  Both broadly use the same procedure for obtaining legal permission for international travel.   Both broadly use the same procedures for coming into and leaving port.  (Yes, there are harbor traffic control centers that operate nearly identical to air traffic control centers.)

Modern sea cargo routes and schedules are very comparable to commercial aviation routes and schedules.  Obviously, business jets and special transport aircraft (super guppy) don't have regular routes and neither do specialty ships like the ones I mentioned before.

There are small specialty boats for use in remote locations like island chains just like there's bush planes in Alaska.

I believe that all of this would inform how interstellar travel and trade would operate.  New technologies and new techniques are needed to handle challenges unique to operating in a vacuum and being weightless but why reinvent the wheel when there's already functional ways to handle mundane things.  Who knows how communication, navigation, and tracking tech will evolve with it but it will still serve the same purposes.  I am certain that we currently have the ability to do traffic control for a star system similar to how we do air traffic control and maritime traffic control.  As such, I believe that interactions between spacecraft and the system authorities would look a lot like what happens with international travel today.

I think for consistency sake and in a highly regulated and controlled system, that would be true. But I think also, if you wanted to run a smuggler campaign, as a GM you'd want to have campaign region that's less locked down (or more variable security in which one 'end point' is less regulated than another) or, has special needs or obstructions like you suggest.

There are merchant vessels today that transport or engage is sketchy commerce and, they've figured out a way to turn a profit. For example in Japan, auto regulations are really extreme so, people tend to replace their cars quite often, even if their old cars are perfectly good. You'd have these really intensive inspections that would end up costing you a rather high rate as compared to the  book value of the car.  After you've gone through a couple of these, your cumulative inspection costs make it less worth while to use it in major cities or, keep them at all. Cars would often be sold to folks in the country where there were slightly lighter regulations. But also, Russian black marketeers would go to ports and pick up loads of cars to haul back to Vladivostok. The 'space' of a car is rather large but, they'd use these ships which were just about worthless themselves and pick up the cars for next to nothing, and the markup was enough to justify doing it.

Quote from: BadApple on October 14, 2023, 10:07:31 AM
Between major populated systems, large liner ships would carry passengers and cargo.  From the major systems, feeder ships would take spur routes to lesser populated worlds where liner service would be under utilized.  Specialty ships would operate where some types of cargo would pose unique challenges and therefore would also unlikely be committed to a regular scheduled route.  (Maybe pre-built starport pieces or processed uranium fuel for the 50 year refuel of the local reactors?)  I could also see the need for something like exclusive business transport of VIPs, dignitaries, couriers, and specialists.  In the same ways that remote islands and remote wilderness locations have special transportation needs, I could see remote locations like frontier worlds having specialty ships service them.   

It doesn't need to be locked down hard.  Even today there are people that use privately owned aircraft and privately own boats for business purposes.  There are independent push pilots that own and operate their own bush plane.  There are guys with 60ft landing craft that earn a living in island chains around the world.  Not to mention excursion trips, hunting trips, charters, and all manner of activities that aren't suitable for being integrated into large commercial operations.

That fits also with my previous point about expensive / fast delivery requirements (air) vs 'it gets here when it gets here' (sea), and having to shift between them when unforeseen events happen make for greater risk. A good example of this in Oregon was when a labor union effectively stopped international shippers from visiting Portland. Importers had to scramble and, decide what they'd risk by the increased (but faster) shipment by air and, the additional cost of having to 'truck' from the ports up in the Seattle area down to Portland.

And of course, what everyone experienced in shipping during COVID.

Quote from: Tod13 on October 14, 2023, 09:58:35 AM
Depends on the science in the universe, I guess. Meaning, if the real-world speeds are close enough to the same and so are the FTL speeds, then you might as well send everything by the cheapest route.

In that case, the less cost effective means would cease to exist.

But in real life, it seems that clever monkeys often figure out other ways that may not necessarily be illegal at first, but simply unregulated and kept below the radar of authority (for a limited time).

Something to consider along with the technology of the setting is whether or not the shipping is interplanetary or interstellar. It should also be considered what amount of realism you want in the setting.

Using Traveller as an example, interstellar shipping costs about 1000 credits per ton - the profit from this is dependent upon the economies of scale in that larger ships have lower overhead per ton shipped than smaller ships. However, larger ships tend to have fixed routes between destinations which ensure a certain level of profit margin. Smaller ships usually have a wider range of destinations because the higher overhead for shipping demands a more selective decision be made so that the cargo gets the most profit for the ship.

Still using Traveller, once you get to interplanetary shipping the above goes out the window. Just using lifters or contragravity, like those in an Air/Raft, you can loft a cargo with a tug to world escape velocity quite easily. The cargoes may take months to reach their destination via Hohmann transfer orbits and will thus be low value per ton relative to interstellar shipping, but things like mined common raw materials or bulk common foodstuffs can be packaged for the trip and provide a regular cycle of supply. It gets even cheaper once Repulsors become available because you can leave your maneuver drive at home and just launch the payloads directly from the ground.

Now I can easily see how this can find parallels with modern air transport and sea transport depending on the cargo, its urgency, and the environment of the destination. Looking at Antarctica, McMurdo Sound can handle container ships during a few months out of the year dependent on seasonal weather, but other research stations and luxury resort camps* can only be accessed by airplane due to their location inland and seasonal weather conditions.

*Yes, luxury resort camps. See below.

https://white-desert.com/our-camps/

Hmmm, you know how players love to be pirates? Some of those cargoes launched on Hohmann transfer orbits would make tempting targets. Low value perhaps, but if the buying price is theft then the selling price is pure profit.

Now all of the above only works in a medium hard science fiction setting like Traveller. None of this would work at all in the Star Wars universe because the technological assumptions are different. For example, sewage treatment on Coruscant isn't nearly as cost effective as just shipping the stuff offworld. You could even make it profitable by having the liquid waste recycled and ship back the water, treat the solids and seperate out the rare metals for industrial worlds and the treated organic solids sold to agricultural worlds ass fertilizer. Think about it, if Coruscant has a population of 1 trillion sentients, then that world is producing 125 million tons of poop alone per day and 1.5 billion tons of wastewater (of which 1.4 billion tons can be recovered as water) per day. Having dirt cheap interstellar travel like they do in Star Wars makes you really have to rethink the economics.

Quote from: Lynn on October 14, 2023, 02:35:32 AM
Air cargo better be worth it because space in a much, much faster delivery schedule comes at a premium (perhaps also with greater security).

It might be interesting to consider if the differences in methodologies cannot be simulated somehow in space

I only learned this because of the pandemic shutting down much of aviation, coupled with a friend of mine being a customs broker - he told me that a large chunk of the world's air-freighted cargo comes in the bellies of passenger aircraft. When you buy a book or t-shirt from China on Amazon, its freight is subsidised by the 300 or so people sitting in the passenger cabin. Take those passengers away, and it gets much, much more expensive.

That's why when I was a kid in the 1970s (and obviously earlier), for overseas postage you had the two options of sea mail and air mail - with fewer passenger aircraft than now, and proportionally more dedicated cargo craft, air mail was much more expensive. Nowadays we have a lot more passenger flights happening, so most mail cargo goes by air.

Obviously you can think about how this works with interstellar flight...

Quote from: BadApple on October 14, 2023, 10:07:31 AMAs such, I believe that interactions between spacecraft and the system authorities would look a lot like what happens with international travel today. 

Awesome post! I'd just add that in a realistic setting, space traffic control would have an advantage because of the vast distances involved and how slow it is to change velocity. You could see a ship coming out of Jupiter orbit, calculate his trajectory, and know he's coming to Earth - whether to stay or get a gravitational assist might be another question, but he's coming here, and he's not going to suddenly stop, turn 90 degrees and go somewhere else.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on October 15, 2023, 12:55:43 AM
I only learned this because of the pandemic shutting down much of aviation, coupled with a friend of mine being a customs broker - he told me that a large chunk of the world's air-freighted cargo comes in the bellies of passenger aircraft. When you buy a book or t-shirt from China on Amazon, its freight is subsidised by the 300 or so people sitting in the passenger cabin. Take those passengers away, and it gets much, much more expensive.

Yes, in that example I gave also with importers, you also get this with time sensitive stuff. I know a Japanese book chain in the USA that gets magazine subscriptions for customers. Those magazines have to arrive soon, so they end up in those plane bellies. The airlines are very aware of how to make the most of any available capacity.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on December 09, 2006, 10:22:40 PM
People actually do take cruises on tramp freighters, paying around US$100 a day. I'm sure that among all the smuggling and piracy going on, there'll be the occasional person who'd like to disappear for a few weeks or months, then reappear in some foreign port, perhaps under a new name...

International travel via cargo ships follow the same rules as other modes of travel.  One isn't going to reappear in a foreign port under another name.  Unless prison is your desired destination.

Quote from: Scooter on October 15, 2023, 08:33:51 AM

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on December 09, 2006, 10:22:40 PM
People actually do take cruises on tramp freighters, paying around US$100 a day. I'm sure that among all the smuggling and piracy going on, there'll be the occasional person who'd like to disappear for a few weeks or months, then reappear in some foreign port, perhaps under a new name...

International travel via cargo ships follow the same rules as other modes of travel.  One isn't going to reappear in a foreign port under another name.  Unless prison is your desired destination.

Regular travel for passengers by sea isn't a thing.  Modern international maritime treaty requirements are very strict on the part of the vessel and operator company.  As such, no major company maintains the ability to take passengers.  Riders (contractors, project specialist, company officials, etc.) are subject to multiple layers of identification verification, various permission slips for governments and the IMO, and a boat load of documentation.  In the end, it costs more to travel by ship than by aircraft.

You aren't sneaking aboard and pretending to be crew.  Ship's crews are much smaller than most people realize with most being about 20 people, all of whom are well documented by the ship and by the company.  Seamen also have three distinct and very difficult to forge documents that are easy to verify as well; a passport, a seaman's document, and a port access ID (TWIC in the USA).

By no means am I saying this is air tight, rules are broken all the time.  It's usually done in places where the risk and the profits for smuggling are very low.

If you're looking to run a smuggling game, there's three key ways it's done IRL successfully.  The first is use shipping containers and get the initial inspectors on board so that it has a good seal before entering the port and into the shipping system.  Shipping cocaine in coffee shipments is a common trope.  The second, is to have a shipping company; own the ships and trucks, control the port, bring the local officials on board with your operations.  The third is to have a clandestine operation as far away from the eyes of inspectors as you can.  The Colombian cartels are know to pursue submarine tech and use semi-submersible craft for smuggling into the US.  Mexican Cartels have been caught multiple times having dug tunnels under the southern boarder.

The bulk of contraband moved by ship and truck is done without the smuggler near by and the actual mover not knowing what's in the container they are moving. 

If you watch TV and see those shows where some person flying in gets caught with a fake can of chilies don't think that's how it's going down.  Mules like that are sacrifices to keep LEO eyes off the real shipments. 

Quote from: BadApple on October 15, 2023, 12:38:44 PM
As such, no major company maintains the ability to take passengers.

So?  One can book passage on cargo ships to other countries and countries impose the same visa/passport rules as for other ocean travel via Ocean liners for example.  A friend of mine booked passage from Long Beach to Asia on a very large cargo ship a few years ago.