Quote from: David Johansen;1116587Honestly GURPS second edition was a huge improvement over first and I'm a big fan of first.

I didn't comment, since I started with 2e, and can't think of a significant difference between 2 and 3 that I ever noticed (so much so that I was shocked to realize 4e was, in fact, 4...)

GURPS 2nd edition added cardboard covers to the booklets in the box and corrected some erratta.  Third edition changed ranged combat and brought in the speed/range table which gives massive penalties to hit at short ranges.  Third edition also integrated many new advantages and skills from world books and added a magic chapter to the core.

[video=youtube;vL4hUeQ-iDs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL4hUeQ-iDs[/youtube]

Quote from: Spike;1116581There may be a sort of life cycle here, where a game is designed, then 'tinkered with' until it becomes a kludgy mess, then we often (not always) see another edition that cleans up the mess and gives a refined, improved take on the initial premise. [...]  You even list AD&D 1e

Correct. AD&D1e is a clusterfuck (initiative rules, lol), but it is a glorious clusterfuck. The writing is engaging, and the ideas all contradict each-other but each of them is cool.

Whereas Traveller 4e, for example, is just a clusterfuck with no glory at all.

And then you get something like Synnibar which was a clusterfuck from edition 1, but it was such a clusterfuck that it outdid the glory. There is an optimal clusterfuck:glory ratio.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1117891There is an optimal clusterfuck:glory ratio.

Maybe FTL:2448. One of the later editions.

I like this Clusterfuck:Glory ratio theory. I also think a 'Traveler 5.10 Unboxing Video' topic needs more unboxing videos. Ideally this culminates into an homage of the classic '98 "Nintendo 64!" children-losing-their-shit Christmas unboxing video. I would like to think Traveler fans have the faintest glimmer of mirth in their bitterest of rpg fandom wars!

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1115945Whether current players move to new editions or stick with old is less important than that new players tend to go for new editions - simply because that's what is on the game store shelves.

Many people in these discussions imagine that there's this fixed number of gamers who were made in the 1980s or something and nobody new has come in since except by their beckoning, and there are movements within this fixed group. It's not true, and is mostly just a story us old grognards tell ourselves so we feel relevant. Every year some old gamers stop gaming, and some new kids wander in and generally they find their own way without any help from the old grognards. There is, of course, mixing between these layers.

Most old players play old editions. Some new players do, too. But most new players play new editions. And new players are being made every year. But the person who has never played before does not pony up $200 cash on a kickstarter for a new edition of an old game they never heard of - they just grab the latest edition of D&D at their FLGS.

I think there is an aspect of time and experience as well. Even newer gamers who grab the latest version or RPG over time graduate back to the older editions of a game and there can be a jarring light that goes on as they see the versatility the games used to have while remaining simple. That said, I've seen the opposite - old school gamers embracing the newest version (there were always powergamers). I guess I notice the former more because I appreciate it.

Classic Traveller (whether original or as late as maybe Starter) will probably always remain the best no matter how shiny Mongoose makes it (and RTT2e is beautiful to behold). T5.10 I'm still learning and do not have a firm opinion on. The core aspect of character creation is vastly superior but ultimately creates overly powerful characters unless you house-rule it. Okay, not vastly, but I see it as an improvement; just not enough to change how Classic does it.

Not to worry it's Traveller and a bullet can still kill an overly powerful character.