It's the year 1210. A group of "scholars" with their retinue (a dozen persons in total, including a few heavily armed bodyguards) wants to travel from Konstanz to Breslau/Wroclaw.
What would be a sensible route? Konstanz - Ulm - Öttingen - Nürnberg - Leipzig - Wroclaw?
How do the roads look like? Dirt roads?
How are the borders protected, for example between Swabia and Franconia? A boom barrier and a few guards that collect toll?
What problems could arise during the voyage? How long will it take?
I am from Europe, but I have no idea where Konstanz and Wroclaw may be.
However, I would hazard the following opinions:
1) Most travel would be by river if at all possible.
2) Travelling by land is a recipe for becoming lost, as there are probably no easy roads. (and the few existing roads are dirt roads.) One would have to hire a guide, and he would not necessarily go by the shortest route, but by the routes he knows and are safe enough.
3) Encounters will probably be with animals more than with humans. Avoiding encounters with patrols should not be too difficult. Avoiding border barriers should be feasible rather easily (though not with a couple of wagons).
I thought "river travel", but Konstanz is on the Rhine and Wroclaw is on the Oder, at least according to Wikipedia, and they pretty much run parallel to each other, so unless you can find a good portage site you have to go down the Rhine, along the Baltic Coast and up the Oder to do it.
I looked at Google maps and there is a straight line road between them, but I have no idea if that was the case in 1210, I very much doubt it.
It's my sort of era, but I donlt kniw anywhere near enough about the Holy Roman Empire of the time to have any meaningful comments, except that the area seems to have ben full of robber barons who would levy tithes and tolls on travel.
Nürnberg - Leipzig should be a major trade route, as well as Leipzig - Breslau. There seems to have been something called the "Via Regia" or "Via Imperii", but I have no idea who built them, and in what condition they were at the beginning of the 13th century.
Regarding river travel: Travel down the Rhine and up the Main River to Frankfurt would be possible, and then along another major trade route to Leipzig.
I will be editing this as I collect notes.
Konstaz was made a imperial city in 1192 so that will have impact on the legal rights of the party.
Otto IV of the Welf Dyansty was Holy Roman Emperor at the time.
Germany was in the middle of a 20 year conflict between the Hohenstaufen dynasty (example Frederick Barbarossa) and the Welf Dynasty. With Otto IV the Welfs are currently in charge.
The papacy was at its height of power under Pope Innocent III
I don't Öttingen would have been the stop between Nurnberg and Ulm rather it would be Nördlingen then a major trading town that will be declared an Imperial city a decade in the future.
Nuremberg was under the control of Burgrave (count) Frederick I. By the end of the decade the city itself will be made a Free Imperial City by Frederick II.
Leizeg was under the control of Dietrich I the Margrave of Meissen. It was becoming known for its Trade Fair estabilshed in 1195. Dietrich is a Hohenstaufen loyalist not a fan of the Welfs.
Breslau/Wroclaw was largest city in Silesia. At the time the Duchy of Silesia was being contested between multiple nobles and often split. In 1210, Wroclaw was set of Duke Henry the Bearded a major player in Polish Politics at the time.
Alternative Path
Head down the Danube to Vienna.
Go by land through the Morvaian Gates to Ostrava/Ostrau
Go down the Oder to Wroclaw/Breslau
Article on Imperial Roads (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_road)
Quote from: Pyromancer;1024945It's the year 1210. A group of "scholars" with their retinue (a dozen persons in total, including a few heavily armed bodyguards) wants to travel from Konstanz to Breslau/Wroclaw.
What would be a sensible route? Konstanz - Ulm - Öttingen - Nürnberg - Leipzig - Wroclaw?
How do the roads look like? Dirt roads?
How are the borders protected, for example between Swabia and Franconia? A boom barrier and a few guards that collect toll?
What problems could arise during the voyage? How long will it take?
The roads will certainly be dirt roads. Roman roads don't cover this area. There is a trade route that will later become the "Via Regia" from Frankfurt am Main to Görlitz - but it is off their route and probably not well travelled at this point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_Regia#The_"Via_Regia"
I'm fairly certain there will be no protection of the borders per se. Tolls would be collected by ferries (unlikely on their route) and upon entering cities. Crossing rivers if there isn't an established trade route means fording or going up and down until one finds someone with a boat for hire.
What time of year is it? The distance straight is 780km. In summer hiking in a straight line without worrying about provisions, that would take at least 6 weeks. But going through unknown territory, with crossings to deal with and so forth, it will probably take minimum 3 months, possibly a lot more.
Thanks, that's really helpful!
Is there anything like the old Roman mansio system or would one be relying on private accommodations? Is there anything like the old Imperial post?
There were lots of Roman cobblestone roads in western and Southern Germany. They were exceptionally well made. The original Roman designs were still used in and around Frankfurt where I lived at least until 1974. The roads were smooth to drive on with cars, and were still in use after 1800 years...
The Germans copied the Roman road designs and used them. There were also well made cobblestone roads in and around Berlin where I lived as well, ...so yes, anywhere where there was large cities there were really good quality roads in 1210 a.d... And overland trade routes have existed since ancient times, they were elevated above the swamps, and packed with rock (although they might have been covered with gravel or dirt, although most of these original trade routes have been paved over with autobahns these days. Holy Roman Empire, duh.
The Germans did use rivers as well, rather extensively, however by 1210 Castles were already set up on the Danube, The Main, the Oder, and the Rhine where they would stretch chains across the river to literally catch boat traffic, which the local Fereiherr then taxed.
Quote from: GameDaddy;1025151There were lots of Roman cobblestone roads in western and Southern Germany. They were exceptionally well made. The original Roman designs were still used in and around Frankfurt where I lived at least until 1974. The roads were smooth to drive on with cars, and were still in use after 1800 years...
The Germans copied the Roman road designs and used them. There were also well made cobblestone roads in and around Berlin where I lived as well, ...so yes, anywhere where there was large cities there were really good quality roads in 1210 a.d. .. And overland trade routes have existed since ancient times, they were elevated above the swamps, and packed with rock (although they might have been covered with gravel or dirt, although most of these original trade routes have been paved over with autobahns these days. Holy Roman Empire, duh.
The route in this case is going northeast into what is now Poland, so it is mostly beyond the Roman roads. From the maps I see, Frankfurt is as far into modern-day Germany as the Roman roads get. For example, below is an online map of Roman roads that I see. No guarantees about accuracy, but it matches roughly with what I've seen.
https://omnesviae.org/
So they could get a little of the way out of Konstanz on Roman roads, but not far. As for Germans copying Roman road design... I know that happens, but it's not clear to me how extensive this would be away from large cities. My impression is that cities would pave their own streets - but there wasn't the larger-scale organization and manpower to pave most routes between cities. For example, the link I gave on the Via Regia says that the first written mention of it is in 1252.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_Regia
I believe that a trade route existing along there for centuries, but my impression was that it was not generally paved.
Quote from: jhkim;1025245The route in this case is going northeast into what is now Poland, so it is mostly beyond the Roman roads. From the maps I see, Frankfurt is as far into modern-day Germany as the Roman roads get. For example, below is an online map of Roman roads that I see. No guarantees about accuracy, but it matches roughly with what I've seen.
I'll state once again, by 400 AD there was a sophisticated network of well built Roman Roads in Southern and Western Germany. By 800 AD several major trade route roads crisscrossed Germany going as far east as Kiev, that were copies of Roman Roads, The main one was known as the Kings Road or the High Road, ...in latin
Via Regia, complete with layered and elevated pathways covered in cobblestones, with Stone Bridges built across major rivers, as well as structural infrastructure such as rest areas, Inns, and these roads could accommodate heavy wagons and large volumes of cart and foot traffic. From about 900 on, The Holy Roman empire ruled over most of what is present day Germany and a good chunk of Poland, and while the empire was composed of a large variety of German clergy and warlord nobles, they all implicitly understood the value of trade networks to build wealth and importance of guaranteeing keeping trading routes open. By the time of the Crusades in 1099 The German road network was so good, Germany mobilized almost four hundred thousands crusaders, and just as many pilgrims to travel South to the Holy Lands, and there were good roads all the way to Constantinople.
Sadly this website only supports English character sets, so I had to create a PDF document on my European research outlining details of the
Via Regia or "King's Roads" which crisscrossed Germany from as early as 800 a.d. -- This is available as a free download from Google Drive
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1FwEMZk0YvKTETwqosD6nmVwnip9DqdWs?usp=sharing
GameDaddy -
I'd be interested in your research, but I couldn't access your Google Drive document. That does contradict what I've generally read about the period, but that doesn't mean you're wrong. I'm not at all an expert. What I've read roughly matches these links, say.
https://www.quora.com/Are-there-any-major-roads-built-in-the-Middle-Ages-Europe
https://books.google.com/books?id=oMceAgAAQBAJ&lpg=PA80&ots=oYO03ZFxmX&dq=were%20medieval%20roads%20paved&pg=PA88#v=onepage&q=were%20medieval%20roads%20paved&f=false
Depending on the route you take its probably going to be at least a month. Likely closer to two unless these guys are really in a rush and in good health. That is figuring 28 klm a day. So about a month beelining it. But that doesnt factor in offroad travel. And closer to at least a month and a half taking less direct, but easier tread, routes. And longer if they are moving slower or in poor weather at any point.
Quote from: wombat1;1025149Is there anything like the old Roman mansio system or would one be relying on private accommodations? Is there anything like the old Imperial post?
You'd be staying at inns in villages.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1025323You'd be staying at inns in villages.
Which is where the adventuring party will meet up at. :D
Sorry about that. This link should allow you access
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1FwEMZk0YvKTETwqosD6nmVwnip9DqdWs?usp=sharing
Omega, Travel time from Cologne to Rome was one week for Roman Messengers after about 150 a.d., and about twenty days for a marching Legion
Quote from: GameDaddy;1025336Omega, Travel time from Cologne to Rome was one week for Roman Messengers after about 150 a.d., and about twenty days for a marching Legion
Thats fit people on a mission. My times are for not exactly fit people who are going at a more standard pace and a walk of possibly upwards of 950+ klm. If you can average 32klm a day you could cover that in just under a month. Beelining it you could cut that down to something like 750 klm and about 24 days. Remember the procession can only move as fast as the slowest member. But the more they push the more time gets shaved off.
This sounds like the makings of a fantastic Lion & Dragon campaign!
And to confirm what's been said here, the really major trade roads would be paved for the most part. Others would not be paved but would be well-maintained if they were secondary trade roads.