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QuoteTiefling

Medium Humanoid
Alignment: Often evil Level: Low Environment: Any

Tieflings, fundamentally, are the descendants of humanoids whose blood was mingled with fiendish influence. The classic tiefling might have demonic, diabolic, or other fiendish ancestry, which might manifest in any of a wide range of physical quirks and magical abilities. That's the tiefling we'll be steering back toward in the future.

A lot has happened with tieflings since the Planescape days, though. For starters, 3rd Edition added some new varieties of tieflings drawn from the lore of the Forgotten Realms: tanarukks (fiend-blooded orcs) and fey'ri (or daemonfey, fiendish gold elves). Fourth Edition introduced a very distinctive look for tieflings, as well as a story that tied them (in the default setting) to the ancient empire of Bael Turath. Thus, 4th Edition tieflings had very specifically devilish, not demonic, ancestry, and they had a devilish look complete with pronounced horns and long tails.

The 4th Edition Forgotten Realms setting had an explanation for this change within the world's history. In the years around the Spellplague, Asmodeus made a successful bid for power, rising from a mere archdevil to an actual deity. As part of that scheme, he put his "blood" (metaphorically speaking) into every tiefling alive in the world at the time. These devilborn tieflings became the dominant form of tiefling, particularly with the disappearance of Mulhorand during the Spellplague. (Mulhorand had once boasted a significant population of tieflings claiming descent from the evil gods of the Mulhorandi pantheon.)

To make a long story short, as with so many other things, we're aiming for as inclusive an approach as possible. As the appearance of Farideh on the cover of Erin M. Evans' forthcoming novel The Adversary demonstrates, the 4th Edition look for tieflings is not going away, but we'll also have room for the variety of devilish and demonic tieflings the game has enjoyed in the past.

Well, I didn't know about that FR retcon (probably because I didn't get to see the last DM's guide to Forgotten Realms) but I guess it wouldn't surprise me.

I'm just glad you are probably gonna have the option to have somebody who could put on a cap and pretend that his forehead was caught in a rice-picking machine or something.  4E Tieflings were too obviously inhuman compared to previous editions, and the fact that they looked so much like Eredar made the Warcraft comparisons that much more inevitable.  ;)

JG

When I played 4th edition, the tiefling was the first thing that caught my eye. The back story seemed kinda cool. At least, way cooler than a half-orc. Then I realized that a Dragonborn Fighter had the best chance of surviving "encounters" so I went with that.

One of the many trends in 4e I didn't like was the whole, "look at all these options! nah, just kidding. it's all pretty much just this way."

Unending stream of lvl 1 STR 18+ fighters despite AEDU promises, all rangers took Twin Strike (IIRC the at-will name), class standardized skill spread, boring magic items, surprising racial homogeneity despite declarations otherwise, art direction lacking variety, etc. It didn't mean to be so, and in fact promised to be different, but somehow the cult of balance really sucked out all the diversity in the final product. At some point you felt penalized for trying to buck the trend; I know my STR 11 fighter (which should be perfectly competent, despite not stellar) was just about unplayable in Encounters.

The more they undo the previous bad advice, the healthier the game will be.

I dunno. I dug the Tieflings' importance and their new origin in PoLand, I'm a little sad to see that go. I guess I'm neutral about their appearance, though I thought the 4e ones were pretty cool-looking.

I hope they won't go back to the late 3.5-era dragonborn fluff, though, I think that was just not very cool.

I wonder what the odds are that we'll eventually see a PoLand supplement for 5e, I gather that even if 4e itself met with a variety of negative opinions the core setting being lame was not among those opinions (except from fans of the Great Wheel).

Quote from: Opaopajr;683954Unending stream of lvl 1 STR 18+ fighters despite AEDU promises

Yup.  For any given class, there are two values for your prime attribute:  18 and 20.

Quote from: Opaopajr;683954all rangers took Twin Strike (IIRC the at-will name)

Yup.  There was very little reason to take anything else.  And the half-elf 'Dilletante' power that let you borrow from another class may as well have been named 'Twin Strike' as well.

Quote from: Opaopajr;683954surprising racial homogeneity despite declarations otherwise

Eh, I did like the fact that they gave races active powers.

Quote from: Opaopajr;683954I know my STR 11 fighter (which should be perfectly competent, despite not stellar) was just about unplayable in Encounters.

Yes, 11 in your primary attribute is going to seriously suck.  I don't know that it's much better in 3.x, though, at least without some kind of feat support to key off of a different attribute.  The way the bonus curve works, that +4 or +5 is *huge* in terms of your chances to hit, and with point-buy stats as the default option, the game has to be designed around the idea that everyone's got them.

I much prefer the more gradual ability bonus curves from B/X and 1e, and actually like random stat generation (in the right type of game).  With that combo, you can actually balance closer around the baseline and let bonuses actually be bonuses, not the presumed level of ability that everyone has.

I'd love to know how you pronounce "fey'ri" and how if at all it is different from how you would pronounce "feyri". Ah, apostrophes in fantasy languages, how do I love thee...

But snarkiness aside Planescape Tieflings were a cool idea (especially the random special features in the Planewalker's Handbook), although I would rather it be emphasised that the demonic ancestry is very old, indicating there is a tiny bit of demonic blood in the tiefling, rather than having a demon father or whatever, as the original Planescape iteration had it. I think a little bit of weirdness goes a long way with these things.

I strongly prefer 2e Tieflings, the way they were back in Planescape.

Hell with the Planewalker's Handbook you could get a bunch of random fun stuff for your Tiefling. Balanced? No, but cool!

...allthough to be honest I always preferred the element-touched guys to the devil-touched ones (...it's kinda a shades of gray area, though, isn't it, what with efreet probably being the most common nonhuman ancestry of Fire Genasi, and efreet ARE devils/demons, pretty much) and think the Genasi were in general the most fun of the planetouched dudes!

(Aasimar are just dull though.)

Quote from: The Ent;683994I strongly prefer 2e Tieflings, the way they were back in Planescape.

Hell with the Planewalker's Handbook you could get a bunch of random fun stuff for your Tiefling. Balanced? No, but cool!

...allthough to be honest I always preferred the element-touched guys to the devil-touched ones (...it's kinda a shades of gray area, though, isn't it, what with efreet probably being the most common nonhuman ancestry of Fire Genasi, and efreet ARE devils/demons, pretty much) and think the Genasi were in general the most fun of the planetouched dudes!

(Aasimar are just dull though.)

Yes! I loved the Genasi. Then again I always thought there was a strange conceptual rift at the heart of Planescape: you had the good/evil/lawful/chaos thing going on and the Blood War...but over there in the corner were the inner planes, which got nothing like as much love and seemed to be altogether a different setting; I think, primarily this was because it was really hard to imagine what an infinite plane of salt looked like or what would live in a place composed entirely of positive energy.

That reminds me. When they decided to fuck up the Forgotten Realms, did Calimshan go nuke because of Genashi parentage? I know they blew up more than a few countries because of slavery. But with the shitfest over Numenera and succubi, you'd think Tieflings and Genasi would throw the rape triggers button and TBP's panic room would open.

Quote from: noisms;683996Yes! I loved the Genasi. Then again I always thought there was a strange conceptual rift at the heart of Planescape: you had the good/evil/lawful/chaos thing going on and the Blood War...but over there in the corner were the inner planes, which got nothing like as much love and seemed to be altogether a different setting; I think, primarily this was because it was really hard to imagine what an infinite plane of salt looked like or what would live in a place composed entirely of positive energy.

Yeah.

Also in more "normal" campaign settings, the PCs probably have way more to do with stuff from the Inner Planes - well certainly in 2e. ;)

The problem, I suppose, is that the Inner Planes are so inimical to mortal life. You can't survive on the Plane of Fire w/o fire resistance, or on the Plane of Water w/o being able to breathe water, the Plane of Air gets depressing fast if you can't fly, etc etc - the Pseudo/Quasi-Elemental Planes seem if anything even worse. :eek:

I suppose one would have to put the weirdness of the Inner Planes front and centre, while also playing up their differences. Like travelling seemingly endless caves/tunnels in the Plane of Earth say, or flying around in the Plane of Air. Whereas the Planes of Magma, Steam, Salt and so forth are probably just plain nasty!

(I think I read somewhere that the Inner Planes will be made more adventurer friendly in Next/5e - or were they improved that way back in 4e? :confused: Can't remember :o)

Quote from: The Ent;684002(I think I read somewhere that the Inner Planes will be made more adventurer friendly in Next/5e - or were they improved that way back in 4e? :confused: Can't remember :o)

Sort of both, actually, in different ways. In the 4e cosmology there's just one elemental plane, the Elemental Chaos, which is kind of like the Great Wheel cosmology's Limbo-- you know, constantly in motion and changing, a lava lake here, an ice mountain there, githzerai building monasteries, stuff like that, with some areas having stronger affinity for one element or another, and at the middle of it is a big hole that's the first layer of the Abyss.

Here's (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20130701) Mearls's article about the planar setup in 5e-- in terms of the elemental planes basically there's three layers to the elemental planes: first Border Elemental Planes which are like elementally-dominated reflections of the Material Plane, then the Deep Elemental planes which are the normal "Everything is FIRE!" setup, then the outermost ring is the Elemental Chaos basically like I just described (except presumably no Abyss since the Great Wheel is back).

I have no problem with any version of Tieflings.

For whatever reason, I have always used devils, demons, half demons, half devils, etc...fairly often.





Love the 'head caught in rice picker' reference :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSJ0x8j4uLw

Quote from: Bill;684006I have no problem with any version of Tieflings.

For whatever reason, I have always used devils, demons, half demons, half devils, etc...fairly often.





Love the 'head caught in rice picker' reference :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSJ0x8j4uLw

Between the "toss out the 2e version of Tieflings" and the "let's play Draconia-- er, Dragonborn!", that's my least interesting part of the backstory for 4e.

Quote from: LibraryLass;684005Here's (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20130701) Mearls's article about the planar setup in 5e-- in terms of the elemental planes basically there's three layers to the elemental planes: first Border Elemental Planes which are like elementally-dominated reflections of the Material Plane, then the Deep Elemental planes which are the normal "Everything is FIRE!" setup, then the outermost ring is the Elemental Chaos basically like I just described (except presumably no Abyss since the Great Wheel is back).

Now that does sound pretty awesome imo, I can allready envision mid-to-high level parties off on a quest through the Border Elemental Planes :cool:

Quote from: LibraryLass;683987I dunno. I dug the Tieflings' importance and their new origin in PoLand, I'm a little sad to see that go. I guess I'm neutral about their appearance, though I thought the 4e ones were pretty cool-looking.

I hope they won't go back to the late 3.5-era dragonborn fluff, though, I think that was just not very cool.

I wonder what the odds are that we'll eventually see a PoLand supplement for 5e, I gather that even if 4e itself met with a variety of negative opinions the core setting being lame was not among those opinions (except from fans of the Great Wheel).

Nentir Vale was the only good thing to come out of 4e. I was really saddened when they announced cancelation of the setting book they had planned...

Unfortunately, I doubt we'll see it for 5e either...

Quote from: YourSwordisMine;684030Nentir Vale was the only good thing to come out of 4e. I was really saddened when they announced cancelation of the setting book they had planned...

Unfortunately, I doubt we'll see it for 5e either...

Yeah, I'm not getting my hopes up.

I dunno about the only, though-- I think the Warlock and Warlord were pretty solid archetypes that I'd like to see live on. Well, I suppose the Warlock was in 3e but I think it was conceptually kind of different there, it took a while to find its resonance, you know?

I'll agree to buy 5E if they agree to remake Red Hand of Doom.

Quote from: YourSwordisMine;684030Nentir Vale was the only good thing to come out of 4e. I was really saddened when they announced cancelation of the setting book they had planned...

Unfortunately, I doubt we'll see it for 5e either...

I honestly liked what they were doing with the Nentir Vale.  While it wasn't exactly the same, it had that same sandbox vibe that I got out of Keep on the Borderlands and the B/X sets.  That said, I did like the setting more than the game itself.

Tieflings always bugged me, they struck me as sophomoric.  I can just picture some spotty gothy adolescent saying (in a slightly whiny voice) "I want to play a tiefling because they're dark, but not totally dark. I can pretend to be a haunted loner and slightly evil without actually going all the way. Plus they're generally beautiful and persecuted, not ugly and persecuted like a half orc".

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;684577Tieflings always bugged me, they struck me as sophomoric.  I can just picture some spotty gothy adolescent saying (in a slightly whiny voice) "I want to play a tiefling because they're dark, but not totally dark. I can pretend to be a haunted loner and slightly evil without actually going all the way. Plus they're generally beautiful and persecuted, not ugly and persecuted like a half orc".

RPGPundit

I can see your POV (but when I was a teen who wanted to play that stuff I did play a half-orc :D)

They're the dhampyrs of the demon world. "Look, mortal, upon my ancient lineage and tremble! :cool: ... Daddy never really loved me! :("

Conceptually interesting, but must be very selective of the players I'd let play one.

Quote from: RPGPundit;684577Tieflings always bugged me, they struck me as sophomoric.  I can just picture some spotty gothy adolescent saying (in a slightly whiny voice) "I want to play a tiefling because they're dark, but not totally dark. I can pretend to be a haunted loner and slightly evil without actually going all the way. Plus they're generally beautiful and persecuted, not ugly and persecuted like a half orc".

RPGPundit

I've had one or two players try that at my table. Fortunately, I have a rule, you're not allowed to play a character I find irritating. Also the reason I disallowed Malkavians.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;684625I've had one or two players try that at my table. Fortunately, I have a rule, you're not allowed to play a character I find irritating. Also the reason I disallowed Malkavians.

I was of the opinion that if you were going to allow 4e style Tieflings, then you ought to allow Incubi/Succubi as PCs too.

Why settle for halfway?

I like the idea of an accursed race tainted with devil blood, but I've never really glommed on to any version of tieflings I've read.

I would certainly implement them as a people descended from an evil empire that went too far a long time ago, or something along those lines, not as "daddy was a demon and mommy was pretty" or anything like that.

Merlin was a tiefling (well, cambion, actually) and he was pretty normal looking, AFAIK.

OTOH, you had Caliban from The Tempest. He really wasn't.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;684640I was of the opinion that if you were going to allow 4e style Tieflings, then you ought to allow Incubi/Succubi as PCs too.

Why settle for halfway?

It really comes down to the player. Play what you want within the constraints of the setting, but as soon as they get disruptive and try to pull that 'special special snowflake it's all about me' bullshit, they either play something different or they don't play.

You want to play the good renegade Drow, fine. Hell, a half demon or a Tiefling, fine. Just don't fuck up everyone else's fun. Sadly, most of the people I've gamed with couldn't do it.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;684670It really comes down to the player. Play what you want within the constraints of the setting, but as soon as they get disruptive and try to pull that 'special special snowflake it's all about me' bullshit, they either play something different or they don't play.

You want to play the good renegade Drow, fine. Hell, a half demon or a Tiefling, fine. Just don't fuck up everyone else's fun. Sadly, most of the people I've gamed with couldn't do it.

I've played once a mean renegade Drow, though he was CN (sometimes quite close to NE) :D. The campaign ended gloriously with us storming the drow city, me gaining the throne, and rewarding party members with riches or places in court (depending on their preferences). Particularly fun was our Battle Mage, fanatic of Kossuth, who demanded access to the potent volcano near the city...let's just say he was a problem later on, in the next campaign.

Quote from: RPGPundit;684577Tieflings always bugged me, they struck me as sophomoric.  I can just picture some spotty gothy adolescent saying (in a slightly whiny voice) "I want to play a tiefling because they're dark, but not totally dark. I can pretend to be a haunted loner and slightly evil without actually going all the way. Plus they're generally beautiful and persecuted, not ugly and persecuted like a half orc".

RPGPundit

Well, it'd be just as plausible to play a half-Drow.

JG

Quote from: RPGPundit;684577Tieflings always bugged me, they struck me as sophomoric.  I can just picture some spotty gothy adolescent saying (in a slightly whiny voice) "I want to play a tiefling because they're dark, but not totally dark. I can pretend to be a haunted loner and slightly evil without actually going all the way. Plus they're generally beautiful and persecuted, not ugly and persecuted like a half orc".

RPGPundit

The trick is not to play D&D with spotty gothy adolescents.

Quote from: Imp;684652I like the idea of an accursed race tainted with devil blood, but I've never really glommed on to any version of tieflings I've read.

I would certainly implement them as a people descended from an evil empire that went too far a long time ago, or something along those lines, not as "daddy was a demon and mommy was pretty" or anything like that.

I agree that "accursed race descended from ancient empire that went too far" is a way stronger concept than "daddy was a devil". It's the thing about 4e tieflings that's actually cooler than earlier concepts.

I'd still prefer their looks to vary individually, rather than all having ridiculous dinosaur tails and oversized horns and sillyness like that. Individual looks actually helps with the "accursed race" thing too, since it'd mean many tieflings would find many other tieflings unattractive/scary looking, etc.

Quote from: noisms;684745The trick is not to play D&D with spotty gothy adolescents.

Or anything else, when you get down to it.

As a former spotty gothy adolescent who favored laid-back halflings and aristocratic, lovelorn elves in those days, I resent that.

What does 'spotty' mean?

Quote from: LibraryLass;684834As a former spotty gothy adolescent who favored laid-back halflings and aristocratic, lovelorn elves in those days, I resent that.

Feel free.

Quote from: Bill;684838What does 'spotty' mean?

Acne-ridden, I believe, in this context.

Quote from: LibraryLass;684859Acne-ridden, I believe, in this context.

If that's the case, most of us were spotty at some point.

I was concerned it involved wearing a clown suit or something like that.

I loved the Planescape Tieflings and the 4e Tieflings. The 4e one was more clearly a full race whereas the Planescape was more of half-race, a human with some stuff, like a half-elf or half-orc which always led to the Spock Conundrum of which parent your PC would feel more attached to.

The 4e Tiefling had a different issue, more focussed on their reaction to the loss of their ancient empire than their ties to devils. The Bael Turath thing was a really fun for my 4e campaigns. I prefer them to the Drow.

I am not a FR fan as I've always seen it as a WTF kitchen sink setting so I must laugh at all this online purity panic. FR 5e will do the same thing as 4e, aka shoehorning in whatever new races, new classes, new whatever that WotC wants to sell.

Quote from: Spinachcat;684888I am not a FR fan as I've always seen it as a WTF kitchen sink setting so I must laugh at all this online purity panic. FR 5e will do the same thing as 4e, aka shoehorning in whatever new races, new classes, new whatever that WotC wants to sell.

FR is absolutely Kitchen sink, it's one of the cool things about it.

It still does have a feel and atmosphere all it's own mind.

And it's much bigger and more varied than the vast majority of Kitchen sinks.

I just don't get all the moping from some corners that both styles of tieflings are being supported.

Like it isn't enough that one gets to keep the kind they want, they also have to deny someone else the kind they want.

What a shitty way to be.

Quote from: Evansheer;684981I just don't get all the moping from some corners that both styles of tieflings are being supported.

Like it isn't enough that one gets to keep the kind they want, they also have to deny someone else the kind they want.

What a shitty way to be.

Indeed, also extra irony because some of them keep screaming about how people who look forward to Next want to destroy their fun. Hysterical, in both meanings etc. There aren't enough :rolleyes: in the world basically.

Quote from: noisms;684745The trick is not to play D&D with spotty gothy adolescents.

Well, good luck with that.

JG

Quote from: Evansheer;684981I just don't get all the moping from some corners that both styles of tieflings are being supported.

Like it isn't enough that one gets to keep the kind they want, they also have to deny someone else the kind they want.

What a shitty way to be.

I want both options, hell I want FR's 51 flavors of elf. Options are good, I just wish they were setting specific and people would shut the hell up about it.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;685044I want both options, hell I want FR's 51 flavors of elf. Options are good, I just wish they were setting specific and people would shut the hell up about it.

Golarion has setting-specific tieflings, you know.

Quote from: jeff37923;685048Golarion has setting-specific tieflings, you know.

Which I know jack about.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;685053Which I know jack about.

It all begins with Cheliax (http://www.pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Cheliax).

Personally, I have a statistically large number of tieflings on Varisia where Cheliax colonies were located.

Quote from: jeff37923;685054It all begins with Cheliax (http://www.pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Cheliax).

Personally, I have a statistically large number of tieflings on Varisia where Cheliax colonies were located.

I think Cheliax especially, and the Golarion dawn war story are what drew me to in to like the setting.

Quote from: jeff37923;685054It all begins with Cheliax (http://www.pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Cheliax).

Personally, I have a statistically large number of tieflings on Varisia where Cheliax colonies were located.

Good god that's unsubtle.

Quote from: James Gillen;685023Well, good luck with that.

JG

I haven't played D&D with spotty gothy adolescents since I was one. Which is about 17 years ago, I think!

Quote from: Warboss Squee;685063Good god that's unsubtle.

Huh? Could you elaborate?

Quote from: jeff37923;685205Huh? Could you elaborate?

Maybe he's referring to how the swords in the national flag are crossed in such a way that they resemble a swastika. ;)

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;685288Maybe he's referring to how the swords in the national flag are crossed in such a way that they resemble a swastika. ;)

JG

Nicely spotted, I admit it slipped my eyes.

Quote from: James Gillen;685288Maybe he's referring to how the swords in the national flag are crossed in such a way that they resemble a swastika. ;)

JG

Indeed.

And the fact that it's so ham fistedly evil.  It's a country of Captain Planet villains for fucks sake.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;685317Indeed.

And the fact that it's so ham fistedly evil.  It's a country of Captain Planet villains for fucks sake.

Well, you know, governed by devils and those who have pacts with Asmodeus. What were you expecting?

Quote from: jeff37923;685319Well, you know, governed by devils and those who have pacts with Asmodeus. What were you expecting?

My Little Devil: Fiends is Magic?

Quote from: The Ent;685325My Little Devil: Fiends is Magic?

I'd cringe, but since Dangerously Chloe (http://www.dangerouslychloe.com/strips-dc/i_was_wrong) exists, I can't.

(For those who don't want to click on the link, it is magical girl romantic comedy like Oh, My Goddess with a succubus as its star.)

Quote from: jeff37923;685331I'd cringe, but since Dangerously Chloe (http://www.dangerouslychloe.com/strips-dc/i_was_wrong) exists, I can't.

(For those who don't want to click on the link, it is magical girl romantic comedy like Oh, My Goddess with a succubus as its star.)

I'll come clean - Pixie Trix webcomics are my guilty pleasure.

Quote from: Rincewind1;685332I'll come clean - Pixie Trix webcomics are my guilty pleasure.

*sigh*

Mine too....

Quote from: jeff37923;685331I'd cringe, but since Dangerously Chloe (http://www.dangerouslychloe.com/strips-dc/i_was_wrong) exists, I can't.

Hm, looks a lot like Menage a 3 (made by same person?). Since Ma3 is good guilty pleasure fun (well at times anyway) I guess I'll give this one a try. Thanks for the link! :)

Quote from: jeff37923;685319Well, you know, governed by devils and those who have pacts with Asmodeus. What were you expecting?

IIRC, making adventuring in Cheliax feel like adventuring in pre-WW2 Germany was one of the actual goals when establishing that part of the setting.

There's more nuance and complication when you take a closer look at the people who live in that dystopia.

Quote from: Evansheer;685352IIRC, making adventuring in Cheliax feel like adventuring in pre-WW2 Germany was one of the actual goals when establishing that part of the setting.

There's more nuance and complication when you take a closer look at the people who live in that dystopia.

That is one of the things I like about it. It looks sterotypical on the surface, but when you start to drill down into it, you find that it is more complex and likely in a fantasy setting. Really, in a world where devils exist who trade in damned human souls as commodities, seducing a noble house into accepting an infernal contract was bound to happen with these results being the ones most suited to a variety of adventures based on the theme.

Quote from: jeff37923;685419That is one of the things I like about it. It looks sterotypical on the surface, but when you start to drill down into it, you find that it is more complex and likely in a fantasy setting. Really, in a world where devils exist who trade in damned human souls as commodities, seducing a noble house into accepting an infernal contract was bound to happen with these results being the ones most suited to a variety of adventures based on the theme.

Well, that's why Lawful Evil can be more complex and intriguing than Chaotic Evil, and why the Ways of the Wicked third-party path pretty much requires you to be a Lawful Evil team for Asmodeus.  Now, I think it might be possible to run a Chaotic Evil game, but it would probably run more like the first half of A Clockwork Orange.  :D

JG

Quote from: Warboss Squee;685317Indeed.

And the fact that it's so ham fistedly evil.  It's a country of Captain Planet villains for fucks sake.

What, an authoritarian religious crusade to enslave workers and despoil the countryside?

Oh.

jg

The thing is, outside of a planar campaign, I've never met anyone who wasn't an adolescent (or a mental adolescent) that wanted to play a tiefling.

Quote from: James Gillen;685546Well, that's why Lawful Evil can be more complex and intriguing than Chaotic Evil, and why the Ways of the Wicked third-party path pretty much requires you to be a Lawful Evil team for Asmodeus.  Now, I think it might be possible to run a Chaotic Evil game, but it would probably run more like the first half of A Clockwork Orange.  :D

JG

Yeah, or the biker gang in Mad Max, or something like that. I suppose the best example of a bunch of Chaotic Evil dudes with PC potential would be the baddies in A Fistful of Dollars More, maybe. Classic CE bandits who backstab each other in the end, etc.

I don't really think most games starring a Chaotic Evil party would be a lot of fun though what with everyone being psychoes. A party of Neutral Evil folks, now, that could probably be a lot of fun, as could a Lawful Evil one. A Neutral Evil party would basically be a bunch of criminals out to make it big by any and all means necessary, and well, there's a bunch of high quality TV shows and movies like that with protagonists that could probably be described as "Neutral Evil" or "Lawful Evil"...

Quote from: RPGPundit;685960The thing is, outside of a planar campaign, I've never met anyone who wasn't an adolescent (or a mental adolescent) that wanted to play a tiefling.

I gather, then, you don't play a lot of 4e.
Which I had already inferred, of course.

Quote from: LibraryLass;685966I gather, then, you don't play a lot of 4e.
Which I had already inferred, of course.

I take it that Tieflings are popular for playing Warlocks in 4e?

Quote from: flyerfan1991;686244I take it that Tieflings are popular for playing Warlocks in 4e?

Those, as well as bards, wizards, and paladins.

Quote from: LibraryLass;685966I gather, then, you don't play a lot of 4e.
Which I had already inferred, of course.

Had to many fiddly bits for me. Then again, I was expecting it to be more like Star Wars Saga.

Quote from: Archaeopteryx;686254Those, as well as bards, wizards, and paladins.

Paladins?  Tiefling Paladins?

Quote from: flyerfan1991;686295Paladins?  Tiefling Paladins?

It's not unfeasible.  IIRC, 4th Edition gives Tieflings a Charisma bonus, which works just as well for Paladins as Warlocks.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;686320It's not unfeasible.  IIRC, 4th Edition gives Tieflings a Charisma bonus, which works just as well for Paladins as Warlocks.

JG

And it's a pretty popular thematic combination in Pathfinder too.  One of their LG demigods is basically a tiefling paladin.

Quote from: James Gillen;686320It's not unfeasible.  IIRC, 4th Edition gives Tieflings a Charisma bonus, which works just as well for Paladins as Warlocks.

JG

Yeah, but the backstory of Tieflings is that a lot of them say "screw it" to the gods and devils and instead make their own way in the world.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;686295Paladins?  Tiefling Paladins?

I can see a tiefling paladin that seeks to atone for the sins of their ancestors.

Or struggles constantly to control the evil within them by being a Paladin.

Quote from: Bill;686392I can see a tiefling paladin that seeks to atone for the sins of their ancestors.

Or struggles constantly to control the evil within them by being a Paladin.

Oh great.  As if regular Paladins weren't insufferable enough, now we've got Emo Paladins.

(And I say that as someone who used to play Paladins before graduating to Clerics.)

Quote from: flyerfan1991;686393Oh great.  As if regular Paladins weren't insufferable enough, now we've got Emo Paladins.

(And I say that as someone who used to play Paladins before graduating to Clerics.)

Well, some of us like paladins. Better than a murder hobo.

I have seen more insufferable characters, and emo characters that were not paladins.

Quote from: Bill;686395Well, some of us like paladins. Better than a murder hobo.

I have seen more insufferable characters, and emo characters that were not paladins.

Within the right structure, I like Pallys.  And yes, I thought of a Tiefling Pally as someone who could have an interesting struggle with the Darkness.  But if they're that popular, I have to wonder about unintended consequences.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;686399Within the right structure, I like Pallys.  And yes, I thought of a Tiefling Pally as someone who could have an interesting struggle with the Darkness.  But if they're that popular, I have to wonder about unintended consequences.

Paladins are not all that popular; Sometimes I think I am the only one out there that plays them :)

Quote from: Warboss Squee;686277Had to many fiddly bits for me. Then again, I was expecting it to be more like Star Wars Saga.

I'd have liked that, I think. Saga was pretty solid. I think that probably would have done better business than the 4e we got, too.

The weird thing is that to my knowledge there's never been a fan-made attempt at doing D&D Saga Edition. I would play that.

Quote from: LibraryLass;686403I'd have liked that, I think. Saga was pretty solid. I think that probably would have done better business than the 4e we got, too.

I gmed and played in three saga starwars campaigns and the system seemed good to me.

Better than 4E I think.

In some ways saga is a proto 4e.

Quote from: Bill;686404I gmed and played in three saga starwars campaigns and the system seemed good to me.

Better than 4E I think.

In some ways saga is a proto 4e.

It definitely is. But it owes enough to 3.x that I think it wouldn't have alienated people so.

Tiefling paladins strike me as the kind of character for people who think the problem with Drizzt is that he wasn't Drizzt enough.

Quote from: Imp;686460Tiefling paladins strike me as the kind of character for people who think the problem with Drizzt is that he wasn't Drizzt enough.

I would have no problem playing a tiefling paladin, and I wish Drizzt' would die in a fire.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;686393Oh great.  As if regular Paladins weren't insufferable enough, now we've got Emo Paladins.

(And I say that as someone who used to play Paladins before graduating to Clerics.)

Paladins in 4e aren't alignment locked. One could just as easily have a paladin of Asmodeus or Gruumsh as Bahamut or Pelor. That game just uses the class as a generic divine warrior since the cleric had become mostly a heal-dispensing laser cannon (though the front-line weapon and armor cleric became more of a thing with later stuff).

Quote from: Archaeopteryx;686531Paladins in 4e aren't alignment locked. One could just as easily have a paladin of Asmodeus or Gruumsh as Bahamut or Pelor. That game just uses the class as a generic divine warrior since the cleric had become mostly a heal-dispensing laser cannon (though the front-line weapon and armor cleric became more of a thing with later stuff).

One of the better ideas, admittedly (though if I remember correctly, weren't there Antipaladins/Paladins of Chaos/Paladins of Order in some older edition?)

Quote from: Rincewind1;686533One of the better ideas, admittedly (though if I remember correctly, weren't there Antipaladins/Paladins of Chaos/Paladins of Order in some older edition?)

Paladins of Order (the standard paladin), Freedom, Slaughter, and Tyranny were a thing in the 3.x Unearthed Arcana. Blackguards of course date all the back to the AD&D from Dragon. Dunno about any others.

Quote from: Archaeopteryx;686531Paladins in 4e aren't alignment locked. One could just as easily have a paladin of Asmodeus or Gruumsh as Bahamut or Pelor. That game just uses the class as a generic divine warrior since the cleric had become mostly a heal-dispensing laser cannon (though the front-line weapon and armor cleric became more of a thing with later stuff).

So far away from Sir Galahad, it is.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;686379Yeah, but the backstory of Tieflings is that a lot of them say "screw it" to the gods and devils and instead make their own way in the world.

Atheist Paladin!

Quote from: James Gillen;686804Atheist Paladin!

As a collateral duty while in training, I was the Navy's only Agnostic Religious Petty Officer.

Quote from: Imp;686460Tiefling paladins strike me as the kind of character for people who think the problem with Drizzt is that he wasn't Drizzt enough.

I snorted at my desk.

I think the 'problem' with Drizzit has nothing to do with the actual character, and more with a few players that get all excited to be an ambidexterous dual wielder murder hobo. With a build. And a Pet Panther.

Quote from: Bill;686825I think the 'problem' with Drizzit has nothing to do with the actual character, and more with a few players that get all excited to be an ambidexterous dual wielder murder hobo. With a build. And a Pet Panther.

Drizzit from the Icewind Dale trilogy was pretty awesome. I'm not sure when he became the angsty dumbass we know now, but I have always operated on the assumption that the original died and another Drow took the name after using magic to look like him.

Kinda like the ultimate stalker crush.

Quote from: Rincewind1;686533One of the better ideas, admittedly (though if I remember correctly, weren't there Antipaladins/Paladins of Chaos/Paladins of Order in some older edition?)

Antipaladin was a really early Dragon mag article.
Then there was a later Dragon article that had a Paladin class for every alignment.

Quote from: Bill;686825I think the 'problem' with Drizzit has nothing to do with the actual character, and more with a few players that get all excited to be an ambidexterous dual wielder murder hobo. With a build. And a Pet Panther.

I agree. The character was fine, and a bit unusual when he came out (Salvatore's account of how he came up with Drizzt is pretty amusing). It was  the horde of players making dual wielding dark elfs with cloaks after they read Icewindale or the dark elf trilogy that made it so annoying. I just re-read the second trilogy and still found it enjoyable.

The clones were a big problem, yeah.

The big thing I noticed as the impact of Drizz't is that it kind of marked the point at which the assumption that the characters were interesting because of who they were or what they did ended, and the idea that characters were interesting because of *what* they were became more dominant.

Playing a "normal" race or class became "boring".  You had to be something wild and crazy to have an interesting character.

Quote from: LibraryLass;685966I gather, then, you don't play a lot of 4e.
Which I had already inferred, of course.

You gathered rightly.

I'd say burn it with fire...but tieflings tend to be resistant.

I'd go back to the 3.X various breeds and call it a day. I doubt they can recapture the pure crazy from 2E Planescape days.