One of the worst things a game company can get is a case of toadies. Toadies, just to be sure we're all on the same page here, are "people" who suck up to game designers, tell them they're brilliant, they're infallible, their feces isn't malodorous, etc.
Toadies apparently like to suck up to game designers and companies to become known as "Big name fans" of game X or company x, they constantly sing the praises of the company and it's boss, then they viciously attack anyone who implies that game designer x is less that divinity incarnate so as in order to curry more favor with the target of their sycophantic grovelling.
Soon the game designers begin to believe the toadies croaking praise, and ignore, or even become hostile to, anyone who doesn't stick their tongue up his ass on a daily basis. They begint o believe the myth that the toadies feed them, that they're god's gift to the game biz, if not god himself.
At which point they cease to listen to criticism, even when it's well intended, and generally become nothing but legends in their own mind, convinced of their brilliance and infallability.
When a game designer reaches this point, well, nothing good comes out of it.
I think the industry needs people like pundy, to try and counter the toadies constant croaking of their sycophantic chorus. It's too bad many choose not to listen to him.
I've seen an entire board pretty much taken over by toadies, it's not a pretty site. (PUN)
If the toadies are buying all that designer's product, aren't they good for the industry? Money talks, bullshit walks as they say.
Ned
Can I be S. John Ross's toady? Or maybe Mike Mearls? Is there a sign-up sheet? Admittedly, I don't 'viciously attack anyone who implies that game designer x is less that divinity incarnate', but as Harold Ramis said to the recruiter in Stripes, I am willing to learn.
In an industry that famously functions with no market research I'd say that encountering nothing but toadies would give you an incredibly slanted vision of what most gamers think of your product.
I just don't understand the impulse to toady to people.
It's a bit like guys who bend over backwards to be nice to cute girls simply because they're cute. Makes me think "Oh yeah, she's really going to sleep with you because you agreed with her that Charmed was well worth watching". Whereas I, perverse until then end, are more likely to want to take the piss out of someone when I see them being toadied to.
I remember back in grad school there was this one really cute danish girl who was doing a PhD and she gave a presentation to the research group and normally it's a really combattive and tough atmosphere but everyone else was giving her a really easy time so I spoke up and took issue with what she said. Afterwards a friend joked that he thought I was going to leap up and start throttling her whilst screaming "answer the fucking question bitch!"
Thing is though, everyone loves to be toadied to. James Wallis and John Tynes have walked away from the game industry but they still like the attention they get from gamers.
Toadies are bad for critical discussions about RPGs. But that's true for discussions about anything (films, politics, etc.).
Any designer/company that listens only to its toadies is a foolish one. But does any important designer/company in fact do this? Palladium is the only likely candidate that I can think of (but I don't know much about them).
Insofar as toadies purchase products, play games, and possibly even recruit new gamers, they're 'good' for the 'industry'. But their toadiness prevents them from being good for critical discussions about the 'industry' and its various products. These are separate things.
Out of curiousity, what 'board' was taken over by toadies?
Quote from: Mr. Analytical... Makes me think "Oh yeah, she's really going to sleep with you because you agreed with her that Charmed was well worth watching"...
Argh!! :headache:
Time to think of a new strategy ...
Quote from: AkrasiaOut of curiousity, what 'board' was taken over by toadies?
Ah, shit. Why did you have to go and do that?
Quote from: AkrasiaOut of curiousity, what 'board' was taken over by toadies?
He's talking about GURPS and SJG. He Rolled a 1-11 today.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Ned the Lonely DonkeyIf the toadies are buying all that designer's product, aren't they good for the industry? Money talks, bullshit walks as they say.
Ned
A dozen toadies can't support a company. So if the company winds up slanting their product towards the small number of loud people on their forum, they might create something that sells hundreds or thousands fewer copies elsewhere.
Toadies aren't just bad for the designers, they can present a loud mouthed, dogmatic face for the company that turns off potential fans. Ever been turned off of a game before it came out by the constant posting across forums of a few drooling idiots? Did ArthurQ help the BOEF (can't remember full name today) or help it become known as the book of elf porn?
On the one hand, small companies need fans to spread the word. On the other, they are messengers that aren't really controlled by the company so they can wind up hurting as much as helping.
Wow. You can have toadies. Wow. The closest I get is Mike and he has told me I am an ass to most people. Is that close enough? Should I make an ass product now?
Butt Plug: The Reckoning
A story based game about playing a angst filled butt plug. The world is against you and you must push through, regardless of the horrible curse of your kind. Battle gerbils and hemmoroids (supplement Hemmoroid: The Forsaken out in March) as they defile your sacred hunting grounds.
I assure you, game designers have no shortage of people telling them that they are pretentious, self-centered, gamer hating, incompetent morons. ;)
Bill
Quote from: HinterWeltI assure you, game designers have no shortage of people telling them that they are pretentious, self-centered, gamer hating, incompetent morons. ;)
Well they can always do with a few more.
It's a good thing that they know their place. A roleplaying game designer is one up the prestige ladder from agonising receiviing-end farmhand in a bestial porn video. It's important that they remember that.
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalWell they can always do with a few more.
It's a good thing that they know their place. A roleplaying game designer is one up the prestige ladder from agonising receiviing-end farmhand in a bestial porn video. It's important that they remember that.
And several rungs under one - that is the farmhand, not the pornstar - in cash benefits.
-clash
Quote from: RPGPunditHe's talking about GURPS and SJG. He Rolled a 1-11 today.
RPGPundit
Hey, you've got your swine and other people to bitch about, I've got mine.
Well, it might be different for some, but I know the only think my boss really looks at is "how well did it sell".
People speaking well of something I write online, good reviews, all that is nice but when I say "I'd like to do an expansion for such and so" the first response will always be "let me look at sales".
My guess is that larger companies work this way even more. Individual designers, in my experience, are similarly judged by companies by producing sales.
Still, it's not surprising game designers like to hear positive feedback. It's not like we do this for the glorious 4 figure salaries we make...
Chuck
Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckStill, it's not surprising game designers like to hear positive feedback. It's not like we do this for the glorious 4 figure salaries we make...
Chuck
You get
salaries??
I got a rock... :D
-clash
The one time I wrote something I got a reasonable cheque. Unfortunately, the $/£ conversion rate (and the fee my bank charged to cash it) made it into a very unreasonable cheque ;)
Quote from: HinterWeltWow. You can have toadies. Wow. The closest I get is Mike and he has told me I am an ass to most people.
Nope, you are not an ass to most people, just to people you don't like. Luckly, besides that guy in the pickup on the way back from Gencon and a couple of people locally I don't know any people you dislike personally.:D
As far as toadies go.
I'm no toadie. I'm perfectly willing to tell someone their game sucks even if I liked everything else they publish. As far as Bill goes, we are friends and gamed together for a while there.I don't think you can count friends as toadies. Sure, I might be a bit biased towards his games but that is why I quit reviewing them.
Quote from: McrowNope, you are not an ass to most people, just to people you don't like. Luckly, besides that guy in the pickup on the way back from Gencon and a couple of people locally I don't know any people you dislike personally.:D
As far as toadies go.
I'm no toadie. I'm perfectly willing to tell someone their game sucks even if I liked everything else they publish. As far as Bill goes, we are friends and gamed together for a while there.I don't think you can count friends as toadies. Sure, I might be a bit biased towards his games but that is why I quit reviewing them.
Did not mean to imply you were Mike. You are just constructive criticism kind of guy and like my games. You were never shy about telling me if something didn't work. I just can't think of any "toadies" and felt left out. ;)
More seriously, I imagine there are people who give noting but positive feedback but I find that is the exception. If you listen to only the people praising OR only the people criticizing you and take either to heart you will have problems.
Bill
Quote from: HinterWeltDid not mean to imply you were Mike. You are just constructive criticism kind of guy and like my games. You were never shy about telling me if something didn't work. I just can't think of any "toadies" and felt left out. ;)
More seriously, I imagine there are people who give noting but positive feedback but I find that is the exception. If you listen to only the people praising OR only the people criticizing you and take either to heart you will have problems.
Bill
Yeah, to be honest i don't know anyone I would call a toadie, for any publisher. Maybe sone the WW or D&D fans, but not to many.
I guess maybe toadies would be good for publishers who would otherwise only get negative feedback. It's probly nice to know some people like your stuff.
I propose a slogan: "Lick Toadies Now!"
That should make our position unambiguously clear. :D
-clash
In Soviet Russia, toadies lick YOU!
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceI propose a slogan: "Lick Toadies Now!"
That should make our position unambiguously clear. :D
-clash
we if you are licking your toadies, I think that makes them backstage groupies. :D
Quote from: flyingmiceI propose a slogan: "Lick Toadies Now!"
Especially those of them that are hallucinogenic!
Quote from: flyingmiceI propose a slogan: "Lick Toadies Now!"
That should make our position unambiguously clear. :D
Marry me.