Hey, Pundit! It looks like your message is spreading!
[video=youtube;RaCmYqq5Pug]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaCmYqq5Pug&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR1FF3xhKt42Y0uLre2TeBy61qFkHfLCZBk30wjAN C0K17Z8ywhw0KeGulA[/youtube]
Quote from: jeff37923;1137879Hey, Pundit! It looks like your message is spreading!
[video=youtube;RaCmYqq5Pug]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaCmYqq5Pug&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR1FF3xhKt42Y0uLre2TeBy61qFkHfLCZBk30wjAN C0K17Z8ywhw0KeGulA[/youtube]
That was absurd. I too am not buying any WOTC products. I would love like minded folks to work together and send them a financial message.
Any bets as to how long it takes Youtube to censor Clownfish TV for their wrongthink?
Quote from: SavageSchemer;1137887Any bets as to how long it takes Youtube to censor Clownfish TV for their wrongthink?
I have no idea. Maybe we could have FreedomTube as a substitute, we need some alternative social media.
And we have a game relevant response from Chris Gonnerman about the video when posted to the Basic Fantasy Facebook Group.
Quote from: Chris GonnermanTL;DR: If you posted Clownfish TV's video in the group, please read at least the last paragraph of this post.
Well, I don't think I need to point out the two separate threads in this group about the Clownfish TV video promoting BFRPG over WoTC's offerings, but unfortunately I do think I need to comment on it. (EDIT: One of those posts just disappeared; the other may be gone by the time you read this.)
First, let me reply to those who referred to me as liberal... yeah, maybe. I was raised in a very traditionally conservative family, and believed in conservative politics for a long time. Experiences along the way have caused me to reevaluate my beliefs. I don't want to make this a political discussion; rather, let me say that I respect all people as much as I'm able to, that I treat everyone as equally as I know how, and if I am not always in the right, it's not for lack of trying.
Regarding WoTC's recent changes: I'm not surprised. They, like all corporate entities these days, have to be aware of the current issues and at least appear to be sensitive to them. And WoTC made things harder for themselves, because they have a policy (if you can call it that) of nailing everything down with lots of ink. No detail is too small to write down. Because of this expansive approach, there is a lot of material to look over for bias or stereotypes.
Basic Fantasy Role-Playing Game is not being revised to be more sensitive, because we didn't write that much down in the first place. Look up the Orc in the rules... heck, here's the text:
"Orcs are grotesque humanoids bent on war and domination. They have lupine ears, reddish eyes, truncated, upturned noses, and black hair (but very little body hair). An adult male orc is a little over 6 feet tall and weighs about 210 pounds; females are slightly smaller. Orcs prefer wearing vivid colors that many humans would consider unpleasant, such as blood red, mustard yellow, yellow-green, and deep purple. They utilize all manner of weapons and armor scavenged from battlefields."
That's the only descriptive text for the entire species; the rest of the entry is tactical information. Orcs in Basic Fantasy were designed, from the beginning (i.e. 2006) to be distinct from any human population. The late Steve Zieser's art in the core rules does a good job of representing them, and in my eyes they look like no group in particular; if you see a specific, real-world group reflected either in my description or Steve's art, all I can say is that I'm sorry and that it was not intended.
And note, we have no alignment system. While the description above does say they are "bent on war and domination" there is no firm rule that they must be "evil" or even "chaotic." It is entirely left to the GM to decide.
And this is the crux of the matter. Basic Fantasy RPG was designed so that each individual GM could place his or her own stamp on the game... so that you can play it however you like. I not only tried hard not to project modern politics into the game, but I also tried hard to insulate the game from that kind of projection done by others.
I've also worked hard to build an inclusive, friendly community, by banning real world political topics, by insisting on good behavior by participants, and most of all by trying hard to respect everyone's opinion.
Now try to imagine the sticky situation this video has put me in. I find the reviewer's opinion of WoTC somewhat distasteful, but it's no concern of mine and I would never have commented otherwise. However, by dragging BFRPG into his discussion, he's forced me to do so. If you, like him, think that WoTC is somehow doing the wrong thing, that's your business; as long as you keep that out of the group and off of my forum, I don't care at all. But if I leave those video posts in the group, I am effectively inviting discussion of WoTC's actions into the group, and I just said I don't want that. So I'm given no choice here... I have to delete them. They are off topic, and out of bounds as well. In the interest of not moving too fast, I'll leave them up for a few hours today, but expect them to be gone by tomorrow... and please, don't post that video here again, nor anything else discussing the actions of WoTC or any other game company, even if they say nice things about our game.
A welcome take on what is happening in gaming!
Gonnerman shows such a good presence of mind and states the simple truth of the hobby. Impressed.
Similar stance by Norman in related thread makes me happy I invested in his Kickstarter.
More gaming and less soapboxing in my RPG's please.
I like Clownfish TV, they are nice fun people. I like Basic Fantasy Roleplay, their products are good value and usable. :)
Sounds like Kneon (of Clownfish TV) suffers from a broken heart and made a reflexive video (Hot Take!) expressing his frustration and where his time will go next. It's an opinion, but just that 'an opinion' and thus perfectly normal. It only causes drama if you live & breathe gossipy controversy such as social media.
BFRPG took a professional neutral tack and should be commended. :) Good, I hope more eyes find Basic Fantasy and create their own games & content for it.
BFRPG is cool, and with print-at-cost via amazon it's incredibly cheap, fantastic value for money. I tend to use the material for BECMI or Swords & Wizardry, don't think I've ever actually run BFRPG as such. But lots of the material is fantastic. There are a lot of homages to classic TSR adventures that are still fresh and a ton of fun - Monkey Isle (riffs on X1 Isle of Dread) and the Fortress adventure in Fortress Tower & Tomb (riffs on B3 Silver Princess) are two I especially loved running.
Ironically, Gonnerman's own material tends to be a bit on the weaker side - two many '20 orcs in a level 1 dungeon room' & random-looking dungeon maps for me - but some of the contributors like Neal do brilliant work. And it's all print at cost or free at basicfantasy.org .
Surprised I missed this video, I watch a lot of their channel.
If I'd seen it earlier I would have recommended my games in the comments!
WOTC is getting it from all sides as of late.
I've been done with WoTC for a while now anyway. I bought in to the core 5e material when it came out, then as the line has progressed have been thoroughly disappointed by their business model (give me fucking setting books already!). Their recent bullshit is just all the more reason for me to continue to ignore them.
I have all the options for "D&D" the way I like it that I could ever want. Why should I continue to invest in a company I don't like?
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137896I have no idea. Maybe we could have FreedomTube as a substitute, we need some alternative social media.
Bitchute and Parler.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4637[/ATTACH]
Looks like this could be the new WOTC Character sheet.
Quote from: oggsmash;1138321Bitchute and Parler.
Parler? That honeypot? Hard pass.
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1138308WOTC is getting it from all sides as of late.
They are going crazy over on TBP ...
Good to see common sense still exists.
Quote from: oggsmash;1138321Bitchute and Parler.
I don't trust Parler. I do trust Bitchute. If you want a Reddit replacement get Ruqqus as they don't even require your email.
Also Clownfish made one more video.
[video=youtube_share;hOed3-IFlLY]https://youtu.be/hOed3-IFlLY[/youtube]
I can tell you it was never our intention to put Basic Fantasy or Chris Gonnerman in a bad position. I was looking for a streamlined D&D solution to teach my kids how to play, and had already grown frustrated with 5e long before I made the video.
Like Chris Gonnerman, I think there's a time and a place for political discussion, and the gaming table isn't necessarily it. This is why I have been so frustrated with WotC as they seem to believe politics should be front and center in gaming. Gaming should be an escape from the craziness going on in the real world right now. Unless, of course, DMs and players choose to incorporate that into their campaigns.
Like Chris Gonnerman, we identify as liberals. Knee jerk Twitter reactionaries who don't like our opinions try to paint us as "alt right" or some such nonsense. (I've never once voted Republican and Obama follows me on Twitter, for crying out loud.)
Given the crazy number of rando new accounts that commented on that video in defense of WotC, I have to wonder if he's gotten some "concerned" individuals coming to him behind-the-scenes with some half-truths or flat out lies about who we are and what the channel is about. (It's OK, Chris... we're used to it.)
Quote from: Kneon from Clownfish TV;1138494I can tell you it was never our intention to put Basic Fantasy or Chris Gonnerman in a bad position.
A recommendation from wrong thinkers is the worst thing that can happen in these hobbies. You remember #MoveTheNeedle. Gonnerman disavowed right on schedule.
Quote from: hedgehobbit;1138504A recommendation from wrong thinkers is the worst thing that can happen in these hobbies. You remember #MoveTheNeedle. Gonnerman disavowed right on schedule.
Does that mean we should avoid promoting or recommending games here for fear of bringing them to the attention of the Lidless Eye? :)
Quote from: hedgehobbit;1138504A recommendation from wrong thinkers is the worst thing that can happen in these hobbies. You remember #MoveTheNeedle. Gonnerman disavowed right on schedule.
I can't entirely blame them. An honest liberal is something an SJW can't tolerate. It reminds them of what they pretend to be but aren't.
Quote from: Kneon from Clownfish TV;1138494I can tell you it was never our intention to put Basic Fantasy or Chris Gonnerman in a bad position. I was looking for a streamlined D&D solution to teach my kids how to play, and had already grown frustrated with 5e long before I made the video.
Like Chris Gonnerman, I think there's a time and a place for political discussion, and the gaming table isn't necessarily it. This is why I have been so frustrated with WotC as they seem to believe politics should be front and center in gaming. Gaming should be an escape from the craziness going on in the real world right now. Unless, of course, DMs and players choose to incorporate that into their campaigns.
Like Chris Gonnerman, we identify as liberals. Knee jerk Twitter reactionaries who don't like our opinions try to paint us as "alt right" or some such nonsense. (I've never once voted Republican and Obama follows me on Twitter, for crying out loud.)
Given the crazy number of rando new accounts that commented on that video in defense of WotC, I have to wonder if he's gotten some "concerned" individuals coming to him behind-the-scenes with some half-truths or flat out lies about who we are and what the channel is about. (It's OK, Chris... we're used to it.)
I think your the first big youtube channel that went to the site in the open. You got my respect for that and because of you I bought Basic Fantasy so thank you for that. Welcome to the forum.
Quote from: Kneon from Clownfish TV;1138494I can tell you it was never our intention to put Basic Fantasy or Chris Gonnerman in a bad position. ...
Welcome to theRPGsite! In a world gone mad, a handful of ragtag RPG enthusiasts set out to be themselves and actually play games... That's our movie trailer. :-D This is largely the last place I feel comfortable posting or interacting. It's become a frightening "Stepford Wives" culture of overly-critical cancel-culture outrage targeted at any breathing creature not decked out appropriately in cult-approved couture.
In the classic words of some airman back in the day... "fuck 'em if they can't take a joke."
Quote from: Kneon from Clownfish TV;1138494I can tell you it was never our intention to put Basic Fantasy or Chris Gonnerman in a bad position. I was looking for a streamlined D&D solution to teach my kids how to play, and had already grown frustrated with 5e long before I made the video.
Like Chris Gonnerman, I think there's a time and a place for political discussion, and the gaming table isn't necessarily it. This is why I have been so frustrated with WotC as they seem to believe politics should be front and center in gaming. Gaming should be an escape from the craziness going on in the real world right now. Unless, of course, DMs and players choose to incorporate that into their campaigns.
Like Chris Gonnerman, we identify as liberals. Knee jerk Twitter reactionaries who don't like our opinions try to paint us as "alt right" or some such nonsense. (I've never once voted Republican and Obama follows me on Twitter, for crying out loud.)
Given the crazy number of rando new accounts that commented on that video in defense of WotC, I have to wonder if he's gotten some "concerned" individuals coming to him behind-the-scenes with some half-truths or flat out lies about who we are and what the channel is about. (It's OK, Chris... we're used to it.)
Hey, cool to see you here at the site! Welcome! And, uh, sorry about your getting slandered as alt right, from a fellow liberal. It's not fun and I'm not used to (read: numb to) it yet either.
Also
Quote from: Kneon from Clownfish TV;1138494I was looking for a streamlined D&D solution to teach my kids how to play, and had already grown frustrated with 5e long before I made the video.
You should look at the OSR my dude. :D
At least the shoutout seemed to help with their sales...
(https://i.ibb.co/GtxNn1n/Sales-Basic-RPG.png)
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1138325They are going crazy over on TBP ...
Its Tuesday again?
Thats the second Tuesday this week.
Quote from: Kneon from Clownfish TV;1138494Like Chris Gonnerman, we identify as liberals. Knee jerk Twitter reactionaries who don't like our opinions try to paint us as "alt right" or some such nonsense. (I've never once voted Republican and Obama follows me on Twitter, for crying out loud.)
See? This is where you don't quite get it yet. You'd be surprised at how many of us here identify as "left of center" 90's era liberals. The problem, however, is that you (and we) are right of
them. So much so that they literally can't distinguish the difference between "left of center" and actual fucking neo-Nazis. You are, therefore, alt-right (according to the retarded narrative these people push).
Anyway - if you'd never heard of some of the OSR retro games before, oh boy have we got some games to talk to you about! Basic Fantasy is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg, mi amigo.
Quote from: S'mon;1137992BFRPG is cool, and with print-at-cost via amazon it's incredibly cheap, fantastic value for money.
It's $5 on Amazon. You could drop $30 and supply a full table with their own books. I prefer S&W:WB because I love the 0e rawness, but BF is a perfectly fine TSR retroclone. I've played it a few times and I've got no complaints.
Quote from: Arkansan;1138320Why should I continue to invest in a company I don't like?
For those of us sick of the retard nonsense, WotC does not deserve either our time or our money.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1138325They are going crazy over on TBP ...
What's happening?
Provide quotes!! The LOLZ must flow!
Quote from: Shasarak;1138538Thats the second Tuesday this week.
In the "new normal", it's always Tuesday!
Quote from: Kneon from Clownfish TV;1138494This is why I have been so frustrated with WotC as they seem to believe politics should be front and center in gaming. Gaming should be an escape from the craziness going on in the real world right now.
Damn it! We got another of those damn MAGA Natzis joining the site!! :D
Quote from: Kneon from Clownfish TV;1138494Like Chris Gonnerman, we identify as liberals. Knee jerk Twitter reactionaries who don't like our opinions try to paint us as "alt right" or some such nonsense.
2020 isn't about Left vs. Right, Liberal vs. Conservative, Democrat vs. Republican.
It's Freedom vs. Tyranny.
What used to be "your side" wants you silenced for wrongthink and shamed so others don't dare speak out. "Our side" may not always (or ever) agree with you, but we always defend your right to voice your opinion.
Quote from: Kneon from Clownfish TV;1138494I've never once voted Republican
The most overheard comment at every Trump rally!!!
So if I don't buy WOTC products how are they going to know if I'm not buying them because:
a) They've been overrun by SJWs
b) They're too racist
c) They're shit.
Quote from: Kneon from Clownfish TV;1138494I can tell you it was never our intention to put Basic Fantasy or Chris Gonnerman in a bad position. I was looking for a streamlined D&D solution to teach my kids how to play, and had already grown frustrated with 5e long before I made the video.
Like Chris Gonnerman, I think there's a time and a place for political discussion, and the gaming table isn't necessarily it. This is why I have been so frustrated with WotC as they seem to believe politics should be front and center in gaming. Gaming should be an escape from the craziness going on in the real world right now. Unless, of course, DMs and players choose to incorporate that into their campaigns.
Like Chris Gonnerman, we identify as liberals. Knee jerk Twitter reactionaries who don't like our opinions try to paint us as "alt right" or some such nonsense. (I've never once voted Republican and Obama follows me on Twitter, for crying out loud.)
Given the crazy number of rando new accounts that commented on that video in defense of WotC, I have to wonder if he's gotten some "concerned" individuals coming to him behind-the-scenes with some half-truths or flat out lies about who we are and what the channel is about. (It's OK, Chris... we're used to it.)
Bad news for you, liberal is now right wing. Good news for you, welcome to the team.
Quote from: TJS;1138554So if I don't buy WOTC products how are they going to know if I'm not buying them because:
Send a dead tree letter to the CEO of Hasbro?
My perspective on "voting with your wallet" is NOT about getting WotC to smarten up.
I don't give a shit about WotC's future. They've chosen their path and there's zero value trying to "change the ex-girlfriend".
Also, there's the economy of scale to consider.
If 10,000 WotC customers stop buying WotC crap, it might blip their annual bottom line.
But if 10,000 WotC customers suddenly started supporting a select group of small publishers, that would translate into tremendous uplift for those small publishers.
We live in the Golden Age of RPGs...we have an embarrassment of riches to enjoy and creators to reward!
Quote from: Spinachcat;1138564Send a dead tree letter to the CEO of Hasbro?
Dear WOTC.
I have not bought any of your products for several years due to the fact that they're a bit shit. Please create more products that appeal to me personally. If you do that I will then be able to not buy your products for political reasons.
Regards,
TJS
Quote from: Spinachcat;1138542What's happening?
Provide quotes!! The LOLZ must flow!
Oh, just talk about replacing D&D (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/thinking-aloud-so-say-the-d-d-brand-becomes-temporarily-toxic-what-else-do-we-replace-it-with.866420/), the Diversity Statement (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/wotc-diversity-statement.865477/), and some poor innocent not understanding the importance of the Revolution (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/are-we-going-too-far.866464/page-24). Go into any of those threads and make choices at will.
Yeah. It's insane. At least at Enworld there's some dissenting views but Rpgnet is a ridiculous echo chamber.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1138567Oh, just talk about replacing D&D (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/thinking-aloud-so-say-the-d-d-brand-becomes-temporarily-toxic-what-else-do-we-replace-it-with.866420/), the Diversity Statement (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/wotc-diversity-statement.865477/), and some poor innocent not understanding the importance of the Revolution (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/are-we-going-too-far.866464/page-24). Go into any of those threads and make choices at will.
The "replacing D&D" thread was relatively tame. That "poor innocent" thread though...what an absolute fucking shit show. I know I shouldn't be surprised by anything I ever see at TBP, ever, but...just...wow.
Quote from: SavageSchemer;1138577The "replacing D&D" thread was relatively tame.
That was chosen more to demonstrate the rising dissatisfaction and disillusionment with WotC among the New Order base.
QuoteThat "poor innocent" thread though...what an absolute fucking shit show. I know I shouldn't be surprised by anything I ever see at TBP, ever, but...just...wow.
I'm afraid I didn't have the stomach to more than glance at that one, since I just
knew it wouldn't go anywhere good.
Quote from: SavageSchemer;1138540See? This is where you don't quite get it yet. You'd be surprised at how many of us here identify as "left of center" 90's era liberals. The problem, however, is that you (and we) are right of them. So much so that they literally can't distinguish the difference between "left of center" and actual fucking neo-Nazis. You are, therefore, alt-right (according to the retarded narrative these people push).
Anyway - if you'd never heard of some of the OSR retro games before, oh boy have we got some games to talk to you about! Basic Fantasy is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg, mi amigo.
There's really no such thing as the right wing. There's left and then there's everyone else.
Quote from: TJS;1138566Dear WOTC.
I have not bought any of your products for several years due to the fact that they're a bit shit. Please create more products that appeal to me personally. If you do that I will then be able to not buy your products for political reasons.
Regards,
TJS
A letter to WOTC is useless. Worse than useless.
You have to go to the master who holds the dogs leash and let them know the dog is mauling babies in the street and maybee you should reign it in or have ol Wotcer put down. Hasbro's tolerance for WOTCs incessant stupid goes only so far before they tighten the leash again.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1138567Oh, just talk about replacing D&D (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/thinking-aloud-so-say-the-d-d-brand-becomes-temporarily-toxic-what-else-do-we-replace-it-with.866420/), the Diversity Statement (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/wotc-diversity-statement.865477/), and some poor innocent not understanding the importance of the Revolution (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/are-we-going-too-far.866464/page-24). Go into any of those threads and make choices at will.
I liked the one "Are we going too far?" to which my immediate thought followed with "Are we the Baddies?"
I half think folks there are starting to get sick of their most rabid posters. Matt something started to try and shutdown the GURPS Kickstarter thread the other day. He got maybe two other posters to dogpile. Pretty quickly everyone else just ignored it and it remains a valuable thread for talking about GURPS.
Quote from: Bunch;1138611I half think folks there are starting to get sick of their most rabid posters. Matt something started to try and shutdown the GURPS Kickstarter thread the other day. He got maybe two other posters to dogpile. Pretty quickly everyone else just ignored it and it remains a valuable thread for talking about GURPS.
The posters from SJG gave I think a text book example of the best way to deal with that shit.
Quote from: Kneon from Clownfish TV;1138494I can tell you it was never our intention to put Basic Fantasy or Chris Gonnerman in a bad position. I was looking for a streamlined D&D solution to teach my kids how to play, and had already grown frustrated with 5e long before I made the video.
Like Chris Gonnerman, I think there's a time and a place for political discussion, and the gaming table isn't necessarily it. This is why I have been so frustrated with WotC as they seem to believe politics should be front and center in gaming. Gaming should be an escape from the craziness going on in the real world right now. Unless, of course, DMs and players choose to incorporate that into their campaigns.
Like Chris Gonnerman, we identify as liberals. Knee jerk Twitter reactionaries who don't like our opinions try to paint us as "alt right" or some such nonsense. (I've never once voted Republican and Obama follows me on Twitter, for crying out loud.)
Given the crazy number of rando new accounts that commented on that video in defense of WotC, I have to wonder if he's gotten some "concerned" individuals coming to him behind-the-scenes with some half-truths or flat out lies about who we are and what the channel is about. (It's OK, Chris... we're used to it.)
Howdy Kneon, Geeky, and fam! :D
I have been watching for years now and found you a refreshing Gen Xer (& Gen Zer with the kids) take on the inside and outside of Disney, comics, & animation -- and now broadening into video & tabletop games. It hurts when our memories are trashed with self-righteous and self-pitying myopic ignorance. There is a lot on this site's archives about Tabletop RPG History, and a few of the 'people who were there' often made appearances here. Take a deep dive when you want, and know that this hobbyist industry too made great strides in being diverse and inclusive from its beginning before it was en vogue. This social media flash mob tantrum is committing the diversity and inclusion sin of erasure upon these contributions to fit their self-absorbed narrative, which is an ironic shame (see: the attempted ruination & erasure of Mike Pondsmith's Cyberpunk due to the upcoming video game).
Anyway, as a peer around your age (actually older) who was also there, feel free to stop on by here again and survey some of us fellow great old ones (Cthulhu reference) about similar gamer topics. :) We got a bit of a reputation of a tell-it-like-I-see-it place which helps vents spleens, but also creates useful content and deep dives into what was it like to be there. Just like arcades of yesteryear and divebars it can be a bit rough and tumble, but if you give a little respect (Erasure song reference) and roll with the punches you'll find a happy home with solid leads to find your wants.
Oh, and check out so many of the recent old skool homage creations! Basic Fantasy is fun, but there is so, so much more from recent years! I plug only a mere few in mentioning ACKS (Adventure Conqueror, King) a.k.a. domain management D&D, DCC (Dungeon Crawl Classics) a.k.a. Errol Otus 1970s metal acid trip D&D, anything Kevin Crawford (Stars Without Number a.k.a. D&D in spaaaace!, Godbound a.k.a. an Exalted that works, etc.) Mythras a.k.a. Basic Role Playing (the core of Call of Cthulhu & Glorantha) with more features!, and our site host's own Arrows of Indra and Lion & Dragon. :) (I have made none of the above, nor worked on them, nor was paid to promote them. It is just a taste of what's fruited in the last decade.)
Nice vid... A touch of common sense.
Quote from: Bunch;1138611I half think folks there are starting to get sick of their most rabid posters. Matt something started to try and shutdown the GURPS Kickstarter thread the other day. He got maybe two other posters to dogpile. Pretty quickly everyone else just ignored it and it remains a valuable thread for talking about GURPS.
Am I remembering the Bill Webb thing incorrectly? I remember he was at a convention, drank alot and hit on a woman enough to be obnoxious with his drunken banter? I had no idea it was a long lasting crime, and to be honest I do not know a single male (hetero or homo) that drinks who has not flown over the line of appropriate in such matters, I know quite a few females who have flown over the line of appropriate in such matters. Is this now a crime to never be forgotten? The people on the thread are treating it as if he cornered her in an elevator and she narrowly escaped a rape. Did more happen than an old guy pushing too hard while drunk with his banter?
Quote from: Spinachcat;1138564Send a dead tree letter to the CEO of Hasbro?
My perspective on "voting with your wallet" is NOT about getting WotC to smarten up.
I don't give a shit about WotC's future. They've chosen their path and there's zero value trying to "change the ex-girlfriend".
Also, there's the economy of scale to consider.
If 10,000 WotC customers stop buying WotC crap, it might blip their annual bottom line.
But if 10,000 WotC customers suddenly started supporting a select group of small publishers, that would translate into tremendous uplift for those small publishers.
We live in the Golden Age of RPGs...we have an embarrassment of riches to enjoy and creators to reward!
Yeah. My "letter" to Hasbro would be, "I started to write you the reasons why I can no longer support WotC, but decided that they are too far gone to be reasoned with. So there's nothing you can do at this point that would change my mind." Except, I don't really care whether they know or not.
Abandoning something that is no longer useful and talking about it like we are here is not really a "boycott". A boycott implies organization and a drive to get others to sign on. Lots of products that used to be good turn out to be less good (for various reasons) all the time. If I wrote letters to the company every time that happened, I'd have no time to do anything else.
That's really the core of my reason to no longer support them. I'm going to quit wasting my time dealing with them. I'll deal with someone else that isn't wasting my time. There's a marketing slogan for a small publisher: "We publish games. We don't waste your time with extraneous nonsense." :)
Quote from: oggsmash;1138634Am I remembering the Bill Webb thing incorrectly? I remember he was at a convention, drank alot and hit on a woman enough to be obnoxious with his drunken banter? I had no idea it was a long lasting crime, and to be honest I do not know a single male (hetero or homo) that drinks who has not flown over the line of appropriate in such matters, I know quite a few females who have flown over the line of appropriate in such matters. Is this now a crime to never be forgotten? The people on the thread are treating it as if he cornered her in an elevator and she narrowly escaped a rape. Did more happen than an old guy pushing too hard while drunk with his banter?
I don't know what happened exactly and any attempts to understand were from what I could tell subject to banning over there. From what I can make out he was an ass and had a history of being an ass while drunk. She felt scared because he was drunk and cornered her. Then something physical happened and someone got injured but not by Bill Webb but it initially got conflated into the story. What I could never get clear was whether or not he did this routinely.
Quote from: oggsmash;1138634Am I remembering the Bill Webb thing incorrectly? I remember he was at a convention, drank alot and hit on a woman enough to be obnoxious with his drunken banter? I had no idea it was a long lasting crime, and to be honest I do not know a single male (hetero or homo) that drinks who has not flown over the line of appropriate in such matters, I know quite a few females who have flown over the line of appropriate in such matters. Is this now a crime to never be forgotten? The people on the thread are treating it as if he cornered her in an elevator and she narrowly escaped a rape. Did more happen than an old guy pushing too hard while drunk with his banter?
As I recall, it was even weaker than that. Out on a smoke break at a social event that involved drinking, he offered a cigarette to a woman out of a carton of cigarettes where he was keeping his hotel key. The fact that his hotel key was in the carton was apparently a signal that he was inviting her to have sex, never mind that his wife and kids were with him. If I remember right, the woman involved didn't want to make it a thing, though she did say she felt uncomfortable, but others led the charge.
I hate rumormongering but when I went digging for facts on that one the stuff I could make out was such a tenuous bunch of nonsense, and I hate to see people get stuck with horrible reputations from such stretches of the imagination. If someone has better information I'm all ears, but what facts I could dig up about this didn't seem to support the outrage.
Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1138667As I recall, it was even weaker than that. Out on a smoke break at a social event that involved drinking, he offered a cigarette to a woman out of a carton of cigarettes where he was keeping his hotel key. The fact that his hotel key was in the carton was apparently a signal that he was inviting her to have sex, never mind that his wife and kids were with him. If I remember right, the woman involved didn't want to make it a thing, though she did say she felt uncomfortable, but others led the charge.
I hate rumormongering but when I went digging for facts on that one the stuff I could make out was such a tenuous bunch of nonsense, and I hate to see people get stuck with horrible reputations from such stretches of the imagination. If someone has better information I'm all ears, but what facts I could dig up about this didn't seem to support the outrage.
No, that's exactly what happened. Some girl got the wrong impression of what was going on (I've been to multiple cons where Bill Webb has attended, he never has hit on anyone, and from everything I can tell is a devoted family man). So she is "uncomfortable" or whatever, which is an essentially meaningless phrase, and some con dude "stepped in" to take care of the matter. Probably with the tip of his fedora. The physical part was white knight grabbing Webb or something, and then getting hurt because he couldn't even do that properly. Webb basically said he was sorry that it all happened and he had no nefarious intent, would stop drinking so much at cons as a PR move, the girl just dropped it completely, white knight is the one who made it a thing.
Basically, fucking nerds with no social skills blew up an innocuous event to "Frog God Games must cease to exist!" levels of retardation. If you read THE INTERNET, it sounds like Webb was trying to rape the girl in a dark alley before her hero rescued her and saved the day. It wasn't in a smack on the ass, not even a pass, not even a lameass "What's up, baby huh huh", it was literally a girl with probably Asperger's overthinking an event and a moron trying to win points to hopefully get laid later in six months after buying her Uggs and iPads.
I found that GURPS thread: https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/gurps-pdf-challenge-kickstarter.866435/
What the fuck is wrong with these people?
I never got the follow up, I just remember when the Dust kicked up, and I remember reading the purple version of it. Had my wife and kids get me the latest version of Rappan Athuk after reading that jumble of crap for the next birthday I had.
But for sure if that was what went on, they REALLY were reaching hard on what they were trying to report after the Con a few years ago.
Now WOTC has another statement up about how they are going to deal with all the "problematic" stuff in D&D.
They really need to stop with the bullshit apologies. I don't think they even know what they're apologising for.
It's just showing weakness and asking for more.
If they've decided they're going to do something then they should just state what they're doing and then leave it at that. No self justifications, no bullshit mea culpas, or ritualistic apologies - just generally no engagement.
Even if people at WOTC genuinely think themselves there is some kind of problem and want to act on it this is not the way to do it.
Quote from: SavageSchemer;1138577The "replacing D&D" thread was relatively tame. That "poor innocent" thread though...what an absolute fucking shit show. I know I shouldn't be surprised by anything I ever see at TBP, ever, but...just...wow.
Yeah, this post had a perma-ban attached to it. It's crazy-town.
QuoteIf a person looks hard enough, they can find something racist in every single game, piece of media, novel, story, television show, etc, because if they are searching that hard and are that easy to take offense at something, they will find it.
I don't think we can honestly make a truly non-racist game until our society has figured itself out and people start accepting each other for our differences and we start celebrating our uniquenesses instead of treating differences as bad. We need to see that all of us are inherently good people at our core and all of us are in this society and world together, that all of us have a place, and until somebody does something obviously bad and criminal than we should see each other in a positive way instead of negative.
We can choose to be good to each other if we wanted to. And we can choose to see a game as just a game and leave it at that, and we don't have to see or put agenda's in everything we watch, read, or do.
Can't we just get together, throw some dice, and have fun and for a few hours just forget that we live on earth?
Quote from: Trinculoisdead;1138805Yeah, this post had a perma-ban attached to it. It's crazy-town.
So, basically, expressing the same sentiment as black victim of police violence Rodney "can't we all just get along?" King now makes you a literal Nazi in the eyes of the woke SJWs at TBP.
And people THAT far gone are who WotC is hoping to Court?
At this rate D&D 6e won't have races or classes or even ability scores; those are all racist, classist and abilist. Even dice rolls will be banned. Instead the DM will required to consult an intersectionalist BINGO card referencing the player to determine how well a character succeeds (i.e. if you're a straight white Christian male player you will ALWAYS fail at even the simplest task as punishment for their privilege).
I weep for society, but at the same time, if your biggest competitor is in the process of destroying itself don't get in the way.
For those of you who have now ditched WotC, what have you moved on to?
Quote from: 1989;1139811For those of you who have now ditched WotC, what have you moved on to?
I'm focusing on Mini Six (D6 System) and OSRIC/1e AD&D currently. I'm not buying any more WoTC product but I have a couple 5e games running too.
Quote from: S'mon;1139821I'm focusing on Mini Six (D6 System) and OSRIC/1e AD&D currently. I'm not buying any more WoTC product but I have a couple 5e games running too.
How is OSRIC doing these days? It seems to have been overshadowed by many other retroclone games. It was originally a product of Finch, but now Marshall has taken it over. The OSRIC website seems like it hasn't been updated in 7 years.
Quote from: 1989;1139811For those of you who have now ditched WotC, what have you moved on to?
I'll stick with 5e. Im just not buying anything new from them most likely. If its something I really want then I'll get it second hand from a game shop or e-bay.
Quote from: 1989;1139811For those of you who have now ditched WotC, what have you moved on to?
Currently Playing AD&D2e
Searching for suitable Spanish speaking players to resume running games (Probably White Box or BFRPG although the first has been translated so it's more likely to be it)
Quote from: 1989;1139811For those of you who have now ditched WotC, what have you moved on to?
Great idea for a thread of its own!!! I'll launch it today.
The only game I've ever really "focused" on is Traveller - though I do play other games. Ubiquity has seen the most table time (Hollow Earth + Revelations of Mars), followed by Mini Six (Breachworld). In terms of replacing D&D fantasy with something similar:
Beyond the Wall, Sharp Spells & Sinister Swords and the 2D20 Conan game are my favorites. None have been long-running games though. Beyond the Wall was probably the most successful of those. Sharp Swords the easiest to GM for.
I just bought, but haven't played, Atlantis: The Second Age. I'm looking forward to putting that one through its paces to see if it'll qualify as my S&S go-to.
Quote from: 1989;1139824How is OSRIC doing these days? It seems to have been overshadowed by many other retroclone games. It was originally a product of Finch, but now Marshall has taken it over. The OSRIC website seems like it hasn't been updated in 7 years.
It's still alive. They have a MeWe page I check weekly.
Inquired with Jon Hershberger about updates.
Blackblade made a hardback 3rd printing of the rule-set back in March. Unfortunately, I believe their graphic artist who put the layout together recently passed away so it's just a reprint without any substantive changes.
Still, an amazing, beautiful book, well put together and was/is still a great reference for AD&D.
Quote from: 1989;1139811For those of you who have now ditched WotC, what have you moved on to?
I am in the middle of the Paizo Age of Ashes adventure path for Pathfinder 2e.
Quote from: 1989;1139811For those of you who have now ditched WotC, what have you moved on to?
My own system, Ruins & Realms (itself a reaction to my dissatisfaction with 5e) that's closing in on the "ready to move out of semi-closed beta to open beta" stage.
Other than playtest feedback leading to at least two major re-writes all on its own, the main things that ended up delaying it was a switch in focus from planning on a splat treadmill design approach (where a number of things were planned for later books) to an "All-in-One" approach (where the only supplements would be adventure/setting books rather than new rules content) resulting in my having to go back and actually design a whole bunch of things I thought I'd be putting off for later (mass combat*, vehicle combat, structures... plus class/race/background options I originally intended to include in later books).
* Deciding to include everything DID help in a number of design areas... one of which was designing the core mechanics in such a way that you don't need to "convert" or apply any special rules to the PCs to use them in a mass combat... you just keep using your character as is.
For Fantasy gaming I am playing/running Wizards World and Labyrinth Lord.
For Science Fiction gaming I am playing running White Star, classic Traveller, Stars without Number.
WOTC will may or may not miss my money but I do not miss them.
Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies;1139834It's still alive. They have a MeWe page I check weekly.
Inquired with Jon Hershberger about updates.
Blackblade made a hardback 3rd printing of the rule-set back in March. Unfortunately, I believe their graphic artist who put the layout together recently passed away so it's just a reprint without any substantive changes.
Still, an amazing, beautiful book, well put together and was/is still a great reference for AD&D.
I bought a copy of that hardback. The book itself is a thing of beauty. The game itself is good - a fine reference for AD&D. I recommend it.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1139831Currently Playing AD&D2e
Searching for suitable Spanish speaking players to resume running games (Probably White Box or BFRPG although the first has been translated so it's more likely to be it)
Dragão Brasil had some really great conversion articles in it if you can find it now.
Quote from: Omega;1139898Dragão Brasil had some really great conversion articles in it if you can find it now.
Conversion of what to what?
I'm pretty sure mate I can sail the high seas and get to a propitious shore. :D
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1139926Conversion of what to what?
I'm pretty sure mate I can sail the high seas and get to a propitious shore. :D
1: Yes!
2: probably did a conversion for that too. heh-heh.
x: Seriously though they had quite an array of articles converting various settings to D&D or WOD mostly. And the occasional Gurps and other. PRetty sure all their D&D articles were for 2e?
Quote from: 1989;1139824How is OSRIC doing these days? It seems to have been overshadowed by many other retroclone games. It was originally a product of Finch, but now Marshall has taken it over. The OSRIC website seems like it hasn't been updated in 7 years.
The pocket OSRIC pdf https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/111392/OSRIC-Pocket-SRD-PDF from 2013 is new since I last ran it, best bookmarked product I've ever seen! Makes GMing it online a joy. Otherwise I have no idea how it's doing but just added a new player to my PBP and it's going great! :D
This thread has also got me excited to run BFRPG to replace 5e when my current Princes of the Apocalypse campaign finishes; I'm importing the sweet sweet unified save mechanic from S&W, which can also replace BFRPG's task resolution system - the numbers are very similar. Here's what I did this morning:
BFRPG House Rules
Character GenerationRoll 2d6+6 in order STR INT WIS DEX CON CHA.
Optionally, one attribute may be swapped with one other attribute (eg player may swap STR 12 DEX 8, for STR 8 DEX 12).
Class RulesFighter HP 10+5/Level. #ATT 2 at 4th (HERO), #ATT 3 at 8th+ (SUPER-HERO)
Cleric HP 8+4/level.
Magic-User HP 6+3/level. New spell at level-up is random, unless trained.
Thief HP 6+3/level. Backstab is x3 damage at 5th, x4 damage at 9th+.
PCs start with 3d6x10gp.
Starting Equipment Packs - Choose one (if you can afford it!) & deduct from starting gold.
A. (33gp): Backpack, large sack, lantern, 2 oil flasks, tinderbox, 12 iron spikes, small hammer, waterskin, normal rations.
B. (32gp) Backpack, 2 large sacks, 6 torches, 3 oil flasks, tinderbox, 10' pole, 50' rope, waterskin, normal rations, mirror.
C. (42gp) Backpack, 4 small sacks, HOLY SYMBOL or THIEF'S TOOLS or VIAL OF HOLY WATER, 12 iron spikes, 50' rope, waterskin, normal rations.
Death & DyingUnconscous at 0 hp, Dying at -1hp (or unconscious at 0 hp to -2hp, dying at -3 if due to blow from blunt object). Dying characters lose 1 hp/round until death at -10, but may Save each round to stabilise.
Unarmed & Unarmoured CharactersAn unarmoured and unarmed character is AC 10. AC 11 requires some ability to parry & deflect attacks, and/or to threaten the attacker.
Single Save & Abilty RollsThe Single Save target number may also be used for attempted success at other endeavours, such as winning the hand of a princess, or steering a ship through a storm. Ability modifiers apply. This replaces the success table on BFRPG page 141.
Attack & Save Table
Fighter Level Cleric/Thief Level MU Level Monster HD Attack Bonus SAVE(d20)NM------------------------------------------------------less than 1---------+0----------17
1----------------------1-2-----------------1-3-------------1------------------+1----------15
2-3--------------------3-4-----------------4-5-------------2------------------+2---------14
4----------------------5-6-----------------6-8--------------3-----------------+3----------13
5-6-------------------7-8-----------------9-12-------------4-----------------+4----------12
7---------------------9-11----------------13-15------------5------------------+5---------11
8-10-----------------12-14---------------16-18-----------6------------------+6-----------9
11-12----------------15-17---------------19-20-----------7-------------------+7----------8
13-15----------------18-20--------------------------------8-9-----------------+8-----------7
16-17-------------------------------------------------------10-11--------------+9-----------6
18-20-------------------------------------------------------12-13--------------+10----------5 (max)
Powerful Monster Attacks
HD Attack Bonus
14-15 +11
16-19 +12
20-23 +13
24-27 +14
28-31 +15
32+ +16
I do not understand people on this thread praising Gonnerman and then slamming WotC. In his post, Gonnerman said he found the video maker's views about WotC distasteful. That means he finds your views distasteful too, and you're praising him? I don't get it. Am I missing something?
Quote from: kidkaos2;1140212I do not understand people on this thread praising Gonnerman and then slamming WotC. In his post, Gonnerman said he found the video maker's views about WotC distasteful. That means he finds your views distasteful too, and you're praising him? I don't get it. Am I missing something?
That's a good point. I noticed that, too. What are his intentions in saying that? What exactly did he find distasteful?
Quote from: S'mon;1139930The pocket OSRIC pdf https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/111392/OSRIC-Pocket-SRD-PDF from 2013 is new since I last ran it, best bookmarked product I've ever seen! Makes GMing it online a joy. Otherwise I have no idea how it's doing but just added a new player to my PBP and it's going great! :D
This thread has also got me excited to run BFRPG to replace 5e when my current Princes of the Apocalypse campaign finishes; I'm importing the sweet sweet unified save mechanic from S&W, which can also replace BFRPG's task resolution system - the numbers are very similar. Here's what I did this morning:
BFRPG House Rules
Character Generation
Roll 2d6+6 in order STR INT WIS DEX CON CHA.
Optionally, one attribute may be swapped with one other attribute (eg player may swap STR 12 DEX 8, for STR 8 DEX 12).
Class Rules
Fighter HP 10+5/Level. #ATT 2 at 4th (HERO), #ATT 3 at 8th+ (SUPER-HERO)
Cleric HP 8+4/level.
Magic-User HP 6+3/level. New spell at level-up is random, unless trained.
Thief HP 6+3/level. Backstab is x3 damage at 5th, x4 damage at 9th+.
PCs start with 3d6x10gp.
Starting Equipment Packs - Choose one (if you can afford it!) & deduct from starting gold.
A. (33gp): Backpack, large sack, lantern, 2 oil flasks, tinderbox, 12 iron spikes, small hammer, waterskin, normal rations.
B. (32gp) Backpack, 2 large sacks, 6 torches, 3 oil flasks, tinderbox, 10' pole, 50' rope, waterskin, normal rations, mirror.
C. (42gp) Backpack, 4 small sacks, HOLY SYMBOL or THIEF'S TOOLS or VIAL OF HOLY WATER, 12 iron spikes, 50' rope, waterskin, normal rations.
Death & Dying
Unconscous at 0 hp, Dying at -1hp (or unconscious at 0 hp to -2hp, dying at -3 if due to blow from blunt object). Dying characters lose 1 hp/round until death at -10, but may Save each round to stabilise.
Unarmed & Unarmoured Characters
An unarmoured and unarmed character is AC 10. AC 11 requires some ability to parry & deflect attacks, and/or to threaten the attacker.
Single Save & Abilty Rolls
The Single Save target number may also be used for attempted success at other endeavours, such as winning the hand of a princess, or steering a ship through a storm. Ability modifiers apply. This replaces the success table on BFRPG page 141.
Attack & Save Table
Fighter Level Cleric/Thief Level MU Level Monster HD Attack Bonus SAVE(d20)
NM------------------------------------------------------less than 1---------+0----------17
1----------------------1-2-----------------1-3-------------1------------------+1----------15
2-3--------------------3-4-----------------4-5-------------2------------------+2---------14
4----------------------5-6-----------------6-8--------------3-----------------+3----------13
5-6-------------------7-8-----------------9-12-------------4-----------------+4----------12
7---------------------9-11----------------13-15------------5------------------+5---------11
8-10-----------------12-14---------------16-18-----------6------------------+6-----------9
11-12----------------15-17---------------19-20-----------7-------------------+7----------8
13-15----------------18-20--------------------------------8-9-----------------+8-----------7
16-17-------------------------------------------------------10-11--------------+9-----------6
18-20-------------------------------------------------------12-13--------------+10----------5 (max)
Powerful Monster Attacks
HD Attack Bonus
14-15 +11
16-19 +12
20-23 +13
24-27 +14
28-31 +15
32+ +16
What does NM stand for?
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1140219What does NM stand for?
Normal Man, the BX-BECMI equivalent of AD&D Level 0.
Quote from: SavageSchemer;1139833The only game I've ever really "focused" on is Traveller - though I do play other games. Ubiquity has seen the most table time (Hollow Earth + Revelations of Mars), followed by Mini Six (Breachworld). In terms of replacing D&D fantasy with something similar:
Beyond the Wall, Sharp Spells & Sinister Swords and the 2D20 Conan game are my favorites. None have been long-running games though. Beyond the Wall was probably the most successful of those. Sharp Swords the easiest to GM for.
I just bought, but haven't played, Atlantis: The Second Age. I'm looking forward to putting that one through its paces to see if it'll qualify as my S&S go-to.
I love Atlantis the second age, but it really doesn't have a S&S vibe to it in my opinion. It's more of a classic fantasy game. It's not high fantasy but it isn't low enough fantasy to qualify as being S&S. Of course you could play it that way, but I don't think it was designed with S&S in mind. Barbarians of Lemuria is my favorite S&S game that's pure S&S. I have Beasts & Barbarians for Savage Worlds that I've not played but reading it does give a good S&S vibe. Also Blood & Bone which I got in some bundle a while back and haven't read, but it looks S&S just from skimming it.
Quote from: 1989;1139811For those of you who have now ditched WotC, what have you moved on to?
I ditched WotC a long time ago (around the time 3.5 came out). Had nothing to do with anything political, I just didn't find their D&D products to be to my taste. That hasn't changed.
I settled on running 1e AD&D (OSRIC is a good retro-clone, but I just use my 1e books) and original D&D with my own house-rules and such. I also run an occasional game using Chaosium BRP, in one form or another. And I've run some games of Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea (I like the setting, and it has some nifty sub-classes). But my main games have been 1e AD&D and original D&D. The 1e campaign is more "traditional D&D" and the original D&D campaign is more of my own thing.
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1140417I ditched WotC a long time ago (around the time 3.5 came out). Had nothing to do with anything political, I just didn't find their D&D products to be to my taste. That hasn't changed.
I settled on running 1e AD&D (OSRIC is a good retro-clone, but I just use my 1e books) and original D&D with my own house-rules and such. I also run an occasional game using Chaosium BRP, in one form or another. And I've run some games of Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea (I like the setting, and it has some nifty sub-classes). But my main games have been 1e AD&D and original D&D. The 1e campaign is more "traditional D&D" and the original D&D campaign is more of my own thing.
What would you recommend new role-players buy today (that is in print), just coming into the hobby?
Quote from: 1989;1140431What would you recommend new role-players buy today (that is in print), just coming into the hobby?
Greetings!
I think that OSRIC is an excellent choice.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK;1140433Greetings!
I think that OSRIC is an excellent choice.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Concur. It's as close as you can get to 1e without buying the premium reprints.
Quote from: 1989;1140431What would you recommend new role-players buy today (that is in print), just coming into the hobby?
OSRIC. You can get the PDF for free. There's also an OSRIC wiki (https://osricwiki.presgas.name/doku.php?id=osric:index). You can get the (very nice) 400 pg hardback from Black Blade Publishing for $26. It's like the PH + DMG + MM all rolled into one: a single volume clone of 1e.
Before the COVID19 thing interrupted my gaming, I was running a 1e campaign for 11 players, most of which had never gamed before (my daughter had asked me if I'd run a game for a bunch of her high school friends, and that worked out so well it turned into a regular thing). I used my AD&D books at the table, but pointed those who wanted their own copies of the rules to OSRIC.
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1140444OSRIC. You can get the PDF for free. There's also an OSRIC wiki (https://osricwiki.presgas.name/doku.php?id=osric:index). You can get the (very nice) 400 pg hardback from Black Blade Publishing for $26. It's like the PH + DMG + MM all rolled into one: a single volume clone of 1e.
Before the COVID19 thing interrupted my gaming, I was running a 1e campaign for 11 players, most of which had never gamed before (my daughter had asked me if I'd run a game for a bunch of her high school friends, and that worked out so well it turned into a regular thing). I used my AD&D books at the table, but pointed those who wanted their own copies of the rules to OSRIC.
I really envy the Americans. So much stuff is in America. Shipping to Canada can be crazy from America. It seems that it has changed a lot in the last several years. Like to get books from Palladium to Canada is $50 shipping. Drivethrurpg is like $30 or $40 shipping.
That's why I love stuff that is on Amazon (BFRPG, and WBFMAG) because I can get free shipping with a $35 order. But DCC on amazon is like $25 to $70 for an adventure. Wack.
Lulu shipping is usually $10. How does the Lulu OSRIC compare to the Black Blade OSRIC?
Quote from: 1989;1140445How does the Lulu OSRIC compare to the Black Blade OSRIC?
Should be the same content. I had a Lulu OSRIC hardback, but I gave it as a gift to another player. It was fine, but the Black Blade hardback is a little nicer. Slightly higher quality binding, red end papers, etc. I think there's also an OSRIC paperback. Same content, different layout/cover. I don't have one of those, so I can't comment.
Quote from: 1989;1140431What would you recommend new role-players buy today (that is in print), just coming into the hobby?
When my players wanted to play AD&D, I sold them easily on Castles & Crusades as the "AD&D 3e that never was." It's got glossy fantasy covers and decent B&W art in a cheap, thin hardcover that gives players all they need. The core book plus Monsters & Treasures is all anyone needs and its 90% compatible with most TSR/OSR products.
OSRIC is a reference document, much like reading a SRD (which is what it is), and I don't know "friendly" that would be for new players. Of course, going with Basic Fantasy or Labyrinth Lord would be fine too. All of them have plenty of "game line" material.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1140454OSRIC is a reference document, much like reading a SRD (which is what it is), and I don't know "friendly" that would be for new players.
While it's true that OSRIC started life as just as "system reference document" (that was intended more for publishers of 1e-compatible adventures and supplements than for players), popular demand moved it to a set of game rules like any other. For example, there's a "How To Play" section, advice for players and DM on adventuring and campaigns, a sample dungeon and example of play (along the same lines as what is presented in the 1e DMG), et cetera. It's not
just a system reference document.
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1140461While it's true that OSRIC started life as just as "system reference document" (that was intended more for publishers of 1e-compatible adventures and supplements than for players), popular demand moved it to a set of game rules like any other. For example, there's a "How To Play" section, advice for players and DM on adventuring and campaigns, a sample dungeon and example of play (along the same lines as what is presented in the 1e DMG), et cetera. It's not just a system reference document.
Yes, I've read through it, and it does a very good job.
A sample dungeon, and steps for creating dungeons are something WhiteBox and Delving Deeper are lacking.
I've also been looking at For Gold and Glory (2e retroclone), and that one does not have sample dungeon material or info on creating dungeons, either. The 2E DMG did not, either, though.
OSRIC is awesome, but I'd recommend buying a pdf of the 1e DMG ASAP to fill in some gaps.
A more beginner-friendly/simpler game like Swords & Wizardry - Core or Complete - or Basic Fantasy RPG or Labyrinth Lord might be a better start, though. Then move up to OSRIC when you're ready to go Advanced! :D
I love love love Mini Six RPG, but the Bare Bones Edition really assumes the reader is already familiar with RPGs. A good one to go to once you want to try some non-D&D gaming.
Quote from: 1989;1140445I really envy the Americans. So much stuff is in America. Shipping to Canada can be crazy from America. It seems that it has changed a lot in the last several years. Like to get books from Palladium to Canada is $50 shipping. Drivethrurpg is like $30 or $40 shipping.
It's nuts in both directions which is why Dream Pod 9 drives down to the US to mail stuff for American customers (apparently thanks to COVID it's a pain because every time he comes down here he has to spend the next two weeks in quarantine)
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1140448Should be the same content. I had a Lulu OSRIC hardback, but I gave it as a gift to another player. It was fine, but the Black Blade hardback is a little nicer. Slightly higher quality binding, red end papers, etc. I think there's also an OSRIC paperback. Same content, different layout/cover. I don't have one of those, so I can't comment.
I have the OSRIC spiral bound paperback from Lulu. It has the slight spiral bound tendency to snag when turning pages but lies completely flat when open which is useful.
Black Blade's store was down when I was buying my copy, but it looks like it's back.
Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1140496I have the OSRIC spiral bound paperback from Lulu. It has the slight spiral bound tendency to snag when turning pages but lies completely flat when open which is useful.
Black Blade's store was down when I was buying my copy, but it looks like it's back.
I bought my copy while their web store was down. Great service, and it's a beautiful book.
Quote from: kidkaos2;1140212I do not understand people on this thread praising Gonnerman and then slamming WotC. In his post, Gonnerman said he found the video maker's views about WotC distasteful. That means he finds your views distasteful too, and you're praising him? I don't get it. Am I missing something?
Gonnerman is left-wing, but he wants
all politics kept out of the Basic Fantasy rules. There is no propaganda of any kind in the actual rules. I'm good with that.
But even if Chris enjoys drowning puppies, the Basic Fantasy books are all sold at cost, so buying them isn't going to make the creator rich.
Quote from: areallifetrex;1138583There's really no such thing as the right wing. There's left and then there's everyone else.
You realize this is the same thing the left says? That there is no left wing, but just the hard right and everyone else?
If Biden wins by a landslide, I suppose they might be shown to be correct this election. Though it will change again shortly after that I am sure.
But as far as games are concerned, I don't think it truly matters. I don't think most people care about politics when it comes to the games the buy and play.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1138636Yeah. My "letter" to Hasbro would be, "I started to write you the reasons why I can no longer support WotC, but decided that they are too far gone to be reasoned with. So there's nothing you can do at this point that would change my mind." Except, I don't really care whether they know or not.
Abandoning something that is no longer useful and talking about it like we are here is not really a "boycott". A boycott implies organization and a drive to get others to sign on. Lots of products that used to be good turn out to be less good (for various reasons) all the time. If I wrote letters to the company every time that happened, I'd have no time to do anything else.
That's really the core of my reason to no longer support them. I'm going to quit wasting my time dealing with them. I'll deal with someone else that isn't wasting my time. There's a marketing slogan for a small publisher: "We publish games. We don't waste your time with extraneous nonsense." :)
The 5e Monster Manual is number 167 in all books sold in the U.S. on Amazon right now (not game books, ALL books). It came out in 2014.
There is no boycott. There isn't even a meaningful movement to not buy WOTC products. They are dominating the field by such a massive margin all these complaints are not even a blip on their radar.
That doesn't make the complaints illegitimate. But it does mean it's not a message which WOTC is receiving.
Quote from: Mistwell;1140545The 5e Monster Manual is number 167 in all books sold in the U.S. on Amazon right now (not game books, ALL books). It came out in 2014.
There is no boycott. There isn't even a meaningful movement to not buy WOTC products. They are dominating the field by such a massive margin all these complaints are not even a blip on their radar.
That doesn't make the complaints illegitimate. But it does mean it's not a message which WOTC is receiving.
For me, boycotting WotC isn't about making
them listen. Nobody in their right mind expects them to. The boycott (if we even want to call it that) is instead about taking the dollars in your entertainment budget that would go to WotC, and giving it to someone more worthy instead. You're right that WotC won't notice that - but if enough of us do it, the people we start giving those dollars to absolutely will. I want producers who refuse to engage the perpetually outraged to know that I will support their work. And if enough of us do that, we enable those producers to keep producing.
I don't need WotC to know that I've taken money away from them. Rather,
I need to know that I'm not financially supporting a company who's spokes-persons have nothing but the utmost disdain for me, and who have declared so publicly. That is at least how I think about this mess.
Quote from: SavageSchemer;1140580For me, boycotting WotC isn't about making them listen. Nobody in their right mind expects them to. The boycott (if we even want to call it that) is instead about taking the dollars in your entertainment budget that would go to WotC, and giving it to someone more worthy instead. You're right that WotC won't notice that - but if enough of us do it, the people we start giving those dollars to absolutely will. I want producers who refuse to engage the perpetually outraged to know that I will support their work. And if enough of us do that, we enable those producers to keep producing.
I don't need WotC to know that I've taken money away from them. Rather, I need to that I'm not financially supporting a company who's spokes-persons have nothing but the utmost disdain for me, and who have declared so publicly. That is at least how I think about this mess.
This, ironically is also what the woke should be doing. Instead of complaining that a 50 year old game is, wait for it, a bit old fashioned*, maybe they should consider just playing other games or making their own.
* because seriously, from any rational viewpoint that's the most that can be said for their complaints.
If someone might spend a couple hundred dollars on D&D books over the next year, that same money would make a huge difference to a smaller publisher. I've been watching small miniature makers and their kickstarter and patreon campaigns and it actually takes surprisingly little to cover a project. Just a fraction of a percent of people buying Games Workshop stuff switching to smaller companies means so many more games and miniatures get made. Even if Games Workshop (or Wizards of the Coast) never notices.
BTW, Chris Gonnerman posted the following this evening, regarding Basic Fantasy:
"Our community is apolitical... all are welcome, but real-world politics stay outside."
I certainly respect that.
Kudos to Gonnerman. I demand no politics at the game table because I want everyone to have fun with their free time, and gaming together should be a break from all the stresses of real life. It's good that Gonnerman is doing the same for his forum, but I won't be surprised when he gets attacked by the Left because "silence is violence."
Quote from: Mistwell;1140545The 5e Monster Manual is number 167 in all books sold in the U.S. on Amazon right now (not game books, ALL books). It came out in 2014.
There is no boycott. There isn't even a meaningful movement to not buy WOTC products. They are dominating the field by such a massive margin all these complaints are not even a blip on their radar.
That doesn't make the complaints illegitimate. But it does mean it's not a message which WOTC is receiving.
Just a note here to everyone else that Mistwell isn't replying to the text of my quote but some made up version of it in his head.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1140644Just a note here to everyone else that Mistwell isn't replying to the text of my quote but some made up version of it in his head.
No! Mistwell constructing a strawman he can then beat!? Why I have never!
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1140660No! Mistwell constructing a strawman he can then beat!? Why I have never!
Well that's the thing. On these kinds of topics, that's what he used to do. Now, he's just phoning it in. I guess I don't rate the top quality deception? It seems an awfully misplaced focus to get bent out of shape because I'm not buying something, though. Who knows?
Quote from: SavageSchemer;1140580For me, boycotting WotC isn't about making them listen. Nobody in their right mind expects them to. The boycott (if we even want to call it that) is instead about taking the dollars in your entertainment budget that would go to WotC, and giving it to someone more worthy instead. You're right that WotC won't notice that - but if enough of us do it, the people we start giving those dollars to absolutely will. I want producers who refuse to engage the perpetually outraged to know that I will support their work. And if enough of us do that, we enable those producers to keep producing.
I don't need WotC to know that I've taken money away from them. Rather, I need to know that I'm not financially supporting a company who's spokes-persons have nothing but the utmost disdain for me, and who have declared so publicly. That is at least how I think about this mess.
And I think that's a perfectly reasonable position to hold.
I am feeling rather financially insecure with the pandemic so my game spending has been cut way back. But I am seriously considering buying that hardback OSRIC v2.2. And some of Pundit's stuff looks interesting to me. A couple of Raggi's books look good as well. And if Marmoreal Tomb is released some time in the next 6 months I will try to upgrade my buy-in on that to include the Prismatic portion of it that was not included in my original amount.
Quote from: Chivalric;1140590If someone might spend a couple hundred dollars on D&D books over the next year
I am not sure that's possible? I mean you could buy PDFs of older stuff, and some electronic stuff through electronic tabletop systems, but they only publish like 2-3 hardcopy books total a year that's new stuff. And on Amazon, even three books wouldn't run you $100.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1140644Just a note here to everyone else that Mistwell isn't replying to the text of my quote but some made up version of it in his head.
If you think that is true then tell me where I went wrong. Don't make the accusation without supporting it. Because I felt I represented your position fairly and replied to what I genuinely think you're saying, and I was agreeing with at least part of what you were saying. But if I am off, correct me specifically. Don't fucking whine about it vaguely like you did.
Quote from: Mistwell;1140729I am not sure that's possible? I mean you could buy PDFs of older stuff, and some electronic stuff through electronic tabletop systems, but they only publish like 2-3 hardcopy books total a year that's new stuff. And on Amazon, even three books wouldn't run you $100.
I think you should take a larger look at what's all out there to buy. Some of it is produced by WotC. Some is licensed (like all those official D&D miniatures). 2019 releases from WotC were at an MSRP closing in on $400. Not counting that silly $300 dice set.
If you can't think of $250 of official D&D related product you could buy in a year, I don't know what to tell you. People spend that easily on miniatures alone.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1140670Well that's the thing. On these kinds of topics, that's what he used to do. Now, he's just phoning it in. I guess I don't rate the top quality deception? It seems an awfully misplaced focus to get bent out of shape because I'm not buying something, though. Who knows?
To be fair. Some people just believe that you should buy a game irrespective of whatever the designer or company did long as they get their precious game. Theres a few on this fora even who believe that. And quite a few over on BGG. Cattle. But possibly not completely bred cattle... yet. They may not be branded to a specific publisher... yet.
Quote from: Omega;1140744To be fair. Some people just believe that you should buy a game irrespective of whatever the designer or company did long as they get their precious game. Theres a few on this fora even who believe that. And quite a few over on BGG. Cattle. But possibly not completely bred cattle... yet. They may not be branded to a specific publisher... yet.
I would have thought that the separation of the creators from the creation is a worthwhile principle. After all isn't the inability to do that a key part of cancel culture?
Quote from: TJS;1140745I would have thought that the separation of the creators from the creation is a worthwhile principle. After all isn't the inability to do that a key part of cancel culture?
Like all things in life... "it depends." If a creator has personal beliefs I don't agree with that have NO bearing on their creation or what they do with it, and has no real impact on mine or anyone else's life, or the world around me, I don't give a shit. Their private believes are none of my business. I've given money to people who have believes I find objectionable, but aren't out to cause me or anyone harm.
However, if said creator is actively and objectively (not just in my deranged opinion, based on what I wanna believe about this person, but as a matter of fact) engaged in things that are somehow harmful to me, anyone else or the world around me, I'm not giving them money, or financing their ability to do harm.
Cancel culture is not about refusing to give money to people trying to hurt you, it's about going out of your way to try "destroy" people (smear them and sabotage their finances or projects, etc.) because you object to them, usually for petty and/or imaginary reasons, when they aren't even really causing harm to you.
Quote from: Chivalric;1140735I think you should take a larger look at what's all out there to buy. Some of it is produced by WotC. Some is licensed (like all those official D&D miniatures). 2019 releases from WotC were at an MSRP closing in on $400. Not counting that silly $300 dice set.
If you can't think of $250 of official D&D related product you could buy in a year, I don't know what to tell you. People spend that easily on miniatures alone.
WOTC doesn't sell minis these days and they have not for years. I think you're thinking of wizkids, which despite the name and their licensing deals, they're not WOTC. No that does not count as buying from WOTC.
And nobody beyond beginners are buying dice from them.
Quote from: TJS;1140745I would have thought that the separation of the creators from the creation is a worthwhile principle. After all isn't the inability to do that a key part of cancel culture?
Exactly.
But, everyone thinks they're doing the Lord's fucking Work by being intolerant of those who they perceive to be intolerant so it's OK to behave like they're behaving.
Quote from: Omega;1140744To be fair. Some people just believe that you should buy a game irrespective of whatever the designer or company did long as they get their precious game. Theres a few on this fora even who believe that. And quite a few over on BGG. Cattle. But possibly not completely bred cattle... yet. They may not be branded to a specific publisher... yet.
Let's be clear - cattle here is those who follow your line, not mine. You can't call the deeply minority opinion here "cattle", at least not honestly. I am challenging orthodoxy here. It's orthodoxy which is cattle.
Quote from: VisionStorm;1140753Cancel culture is not about refusing to give money to people trying to hurt you
Their perception is that it's exactly about that.
Just like your perception is that SJW are trying to hurt you and people around you.
You're both using the identical excuse to behave badly. You both use the same excuse to look the other way when someone on "your side" says or does something which you ordinarily would be staunchly against. You both think you're righteous in your indignation about the wrongdoings of the other side.
Here is an example of a comment you normally would be against, but because he's on "your side" you won't dispute anything he says:
Quote from: Mjollnir;1138708The adult sodomite demographic that seems to be drawn to children's products is what I find disturbing. There are several nominated games that have a similar aesthetic - looks like a children's book but the illustrated characters are a virtual checklist of fat, black, brown, cripples, and hijabs. These games are made by and for people with nose rings, the sides of their heads shaved and their hair dyed in unnatural colors, problem glasses, numerous mental health issues, and HIV.
Based on the things you've said for years, I truly don't think that comment reflects your values. But, you won't stand up to it. Because he's on "your side" in this culture war.
Which is the exact same excuse SJW use to not call out their own when they do something like call Gygax a racist.
If people just focused on what they liked rather than what they disliked, and if they just policed "their own", none of this would be an issue. But both sides in this culture war are unable to do that, because they think they're in a war.
And we both know your response to me on this will be to personally attack me, rather than my arguments. Because that's the first thing SJW do as well. The tactics are always the same for you fuckers on both sides. If you cannot attack the argument effectively then you attack the person. So yeah, personal attack number 366 incoming from you in five, four, three, two....
Quote from: Mistwell;1140754But, everyone thinks they're doing the Lord's fucking Work by being intolerant of those who they perceive to be intolerant so it's OK to behave like they're behaving.
You mean like your whining about those who you believe are intolerant?
Quote from: jeff37923;1140757You mean like your whining about those who you believe are intolerant?
I am perfectly tolerant of you guys. Heck, I love you guys. Even you, you Traveler grump.
I am however telling people that their shit also stinks, despite their beliefs to the contrary.
Quote from: jeff37923;1140757You mean like your whining about those who you believe are intolerant?
Quote from: Mistwell;1140758I am perfectly tolerant of you guys.
An answer, but not to the question I asked.
Quote from: Mistwell;1140758I am however telling people that their shit also stinks, despite their beliefs to the contrary.
By strawman arguments?
Greetings!
SHARK is doing the Lord's Work!:D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK;1140762Greetings!
SHARK is doing the Lord's Work!:D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
....
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Quote from: TJS;1140745I would have thought that the separation of the creators from the creation is a worthwhile principle. After all isn't the inability to do that a key part of cancel culture?
"Separating Creator from Creation" was something I believed in for a long time, but at the same time, I could empathize with people who did not.
Cancel culture isn't just about conflating Creator with Creation, but punishing those who create (or even like) wrongthink. It's about demanding every author and ever reader submit and obey their dogma, or they will use social media to hurt you.
It's the rise of cancel culture that has changed my thinking. If a Creator supports Burn Loot Murder and AntiFart, then why I am giving them financial support when I vehemently oppose anarchy and Marxism? I've yet to see the "perfect" game so why not financially support a Creator who is making good stuff AND doesn't hate my existence?
Quote from: Mistwell;1140730If you think that is true then tell me where I went wrong. Don't make the accusation without supporting it. Because I felt I represented your position fairly and replied to what I genuinely think you're saying, and I was agreeing with at least part of what you were saying. But if I am off, correct me specifically. Don't fucking whine about it vaguely like you did.
No, because I'm not going to play your game of having to explain to you why your "argument" is wrong, which will take me far longer to do than it did for you to sling it out there. Even to call it out as an argument is giving it more credit than it deserves. What I said the first time was completely clear, and if you don't understand it, go back and read it again. Who knows, you might even see where you went wrong--if you can admit it to yourself. I'll give you a hint: Not only did you misrepresent what I said, you made at least one clear misstatement of fact.
If anyone--including you--wants to make a rational critique of what I said, I'll be happy to engage with them at that point. Well, to the extent that is possible while keeping it on topic for this forum, as I can't see many critiques that wouldn't quickly move off of games into the broader picture.
Quote from: TJS;1140745I would have thought that the separation of the creators from the creation is a worthwhile principle. After all isn't the inability to do that a key part of cancel culture?
There's at least two levels to this:
1. The more serious level that people have been discussing where the creator of the game not only pushes hard for things directly against the principles of the potential buyer but actively seeks to undermine any alternatives that the potential buyer could exercise. That is an attack on that buyer. Once the buyer becomes aware of it, it is hardly against principle to defend. Mainly because "separation of the creators from the creation" is not a principle but part of the grease that allays some of the friction in civil society--nice when you get it, but not crucial when the chips are down. That is, it a conceit that creators as a group would like to be honored--and often is until they abuse the parameters of it so much that it can no longer be. Which is why creators ought to be the people most incensed by the cancel culture, since ultimately the loss of that conceit will hurt them more than anyone else.
Yet, even if we were to concede that there is some kind of secondary principle involved, the attack has violated the parameters of it. Kind of like where shooting people is generally bad, but there are well-understood situations where it is considered a necessary thing. SJW do not get to simultaneously attempt to rip to shreds the bonds of civil society and hide behind them at the same time in order to sell the games they think should be sold.
2. The more minor but felt level that if a creator annoys the potential buyer
enough, the potential buyer will look elsewhere. This could be in the product or out of the product, because buyers can get annoyed by any number of things. For example, no one would think it terribly strange if a buyer avoided a game that is fairly good, has nothing in it to set people off, and otherwise appeals to that buyer but the production values, quality control, and delivery are all poor. Up to a point, the buyer could overlook the latter, but only up to a point. After that point, the bad points so outweigh the good ones that the game is no longer valuable to the buyer. It's the same way with "rabid author mouthing off about causes directly opposed to the principles of the potential buyer". Up to a point, it doesn't matter all that much. Past that point, it drowns out any other consideration.
The thing that largely separates the key drivers of cancel culture from normal humanity is not that they have a separate behavior from the above, but that their operations on levels 1 and 2 are almost by reflex, lacking in any charitable spirit, combine the worst aspects of a deadly combination of ignorance and arrogance, and done primarily as a means to power rather than as a means to find games they will enjoy. Other than that, and maybe a few other distinctions I've missed, it's completely the same thing.
Quote from: Mistwell;1140754WOTC doesn't sell minis these days and they have not for years. I think you're thinking of wizkids, which despite the name and their licensing deals, they're not WOTC. No that does not count as buying from WOTC.
Great, so you don't think licensed products with the brand logo right on them count. Fine. Now does this have anything at all to do with my point that shifting money from larger companies to smaller ones makes a huge difference to the number of games and miniatures that will be produced?
Quote from: Mistwell;1140756And we both know your response to me on this will be to personally attack me, rather than my arguments. Because that's the first thing SJW do as well. The tactics are always the same for you fuckers on both sides. If you cannot attack the argument effectively then you attack the person. So yeah, personal attack number 366 incoming from you in five, four, three, two....
You haven't really made any arguments beyond "Both sides are horrible!" Maybe make a coherent one?
Quote from: Mistwell;1140756Their perception is that it's exactly about that.
The reality is that they're delusional fuckwits projecting their ideologically driven hallucinations onto the people and the world around them and feeling entitled to take action against those that don't conform.
Quote from: Mistwell;1140756Just like your perception is that SJW are trying to hurt you and people around you.
That would be more than a matter of perception, but of demonstrable reality.
Quote from: Mistwell;1140756You're both using the identical excuse to behave badly.
Reacting (defensively) to people actively trying to harm you and their naked attempts to impose their will on the world around them is 1) not a bad thing and 2) not the same thing as proactively (aggressively) going out of your way to destroy people for failing to conform to your arbitrary standards and demanding that all institutions conform to your arbitrary ideological precepts, to the point where you start rewriting history to conform to them as well.
The second one of these is an aggressive and expansive course of action, the first one wouldn't even exist if the second one didn't.
Quote from: Mistwell;1140756You both use the same excuse to look the other way when someone on "your side" says or does something which you ordinarily would be staunchly against. You both think you're righteous in your indignation about the wrongdoings of the other side.
Here is an example of a comment you normally would be against, but because he's on "your side" you won't dispute anything he says:
Quote from: Mjollnir;1138708BUT despite the fact that BFF! was designed for young girls, it's apparent popularity far exceeds their influence. The adult sodomite demographic that seems to be drawn to children's products is what I find disturbing. There are several nominated games that have a similar aesthetic - looks like a children's book but the illustrated characters are a virtual checklist of fat, black, brown, cripples, and hijabs. These games are made by and for people with nose rings, the sides of their heads shaved and their hair dyed in unnatural colors, problem glasses, numerous mental health issues, and HIV. Their predominance in the list of nominees is simply an indication of the level of infiltration by the sjwubbleyoos into the "institutions" of the hobby. They live to infiltrate and ruin institutions.
Based on the things you've said for years, I truly don't think that comment reflects your values. But, you won't stand up to it. Because he's on "your side" in this culture war.
OR maybe that comment has no impact on the greater scheme of things and I don't have the time or inclination to scour the internet (in a thread I haven't even been following) for things I might happen to disagree with on some level to pick a fight with people in order to enforce my values on an ideologically heterogeneous "side" of a culture war between an ideologically homogeneous group of aggressors and a bunch of disparate people from all backgrounds and ideologies defensively opposing them.
Quote from: Mistwell;1140756Which is the exact same excuse SJW use to not call out their own when they do something like call Gygax a racist.
Nah, they all think Gygax was a racist and that D&D is problematic, and that they have to point it ALL out. Which is why Oriental Adventures is on the chopping block now. And if they don't, they may shut up because they're afraid of being canceled--and not just chastised by a few people in a forum "canceled", but thoroughly canceled, by a mob.
Quote from: Mistwell;1140756If people just focused on what they liked rather than what they disliked, and if they just policed "their own", none of this would be an issue. But both sides in this culture war are unable to do that, because they think they're in a war.
"You can't be neutral on a moving train(wreck)."
One side of the culture war believes this (except for the wreck part, I added that), which is one of the reasons we really are in a culture war. There is no "policing" their side. You're either with them or against them. There's either conforming to their ideological precepts and demonstrably wrong assertions or "OMG! You're a racist! Why are you on the wrong side of history?" As I found out when I tried to police my side, when I was on their side (years ago).
Quote from: Mistwell;1140756And we both know your response to me on this will be to personally attack me, rather than my arguments. Because that's the first thing SJW do as well. The tactics are always the same for you fuckers on both sides. If you cannot attack the argument effectively then you attack the person. So yeah, personal attack number 366 incoming from you in five, four, three, two....
And we both know your response to me on this will be to nitpick and build a man out of straw and attack it furiously. :p
Quote from: Brad;1140805You haven't really made any arguments beyond "Both sides are horrible!" Maybe make a coherent one?
There is a requirement to make more than one argument? Is there something not coherent about "both sides are horrible and I don't like it when people judge which RPGs others buy rather than than simply promoting the RPG products they like?"
Quote from: Mistwell;1140812There is a requirement to make more than one argument? Is there something not coherent about "both sides are horrible and I don't like it when people judge which RPGs others buy rather than than simply promoting the RPG products they like?"
As has already been pointed out multiple times, you're simply conflating SJW cancel culture with "You shouldn't give WotC money because they suck." The latter is equivalent to "old man shouts at cloud", the former is outright Orwellian history revision. If you're just going to stick with that line of reasoning, you're either retarded or being purposefully disingenuous. If you honestly don't give a fuck what people play, why are you so hypocritical and telling them they're wrong for not wanting to play WotC games, regardless of their reasons for doing so?
Quote from: Mistwell;1140812There is a requirement to make more than one argument? Is there something not coherent about "both sides are horrible and I don't like it when people judge which RPGs others buy rather than than simply promoting the RPG products they like?"
That's not an argument. That's an outburst. I'm sorry you feel bad about this situation. I'm sorry your worldview can't handle it. I'm not sorry for calling you out on venting incoherently about it and directing your ire at the people defending themselves instead of the ones causing the problem.
It's not as if this hasn't been a long time coming. It's not as if people here haven't been saying for years that eventually it was going to come to this if the usual suspects didn't cut it out. Now you are acting all surprised that people had a line that once crossed would change their buying behavior for something as mundane as an RPG. It's a freaking luxury item that most of us here can easily reproduce ourselves in a useful format if sufficiently motivated. I wish it didn't have to come to this, too. Maybe if leftists and their apologists policed their own side, we wouldn't be here. While I'm wishing for that, I'll ask for a tiger too. Hope the GM isn't one of those wish-twisting types.
Quote from: Mistwell;1140812There is a requirement to make more than one argument? Is there something not coherent about "both sides are horrible and I don't like it when people judge which RPGs others buy rather than than simply promoting the RPG products they like?"
That's not an argument, that's a Strawman. Nobody is "judging which RPGs others buy" (Whatever the fuck that means in your addled and disingenuous mind.)
What we're saying is this:
IF you're tired of being lectured down, of having IRL politics pushed on your games and down your throat there's something you can do, stop giving the people that do those things your money/promotion and switch to other games.
I would never buy a Christian TTRPG (and they exist), because I don't want to be preached in my entertainment.
I would never buy a SocJusCult TTRPG for the same reasons.
We fought the christian fundamentalists of the Satanic Panic, now we're fighting the SocJus zealots of the Istophobe Panic.
But I bet you'd never advocate for us to not say you should fight the religious fundamentalists, except if those fundamentalists are from your cult.
My entertainment time is sacred, my money limited and I will not give my money to those that hate me, be it Varg Vikernes' Myfarog or any SocJus Zealot RPG. Neither will I be shamed into silence by the disingenuous twats (like you) that claim I should keep quiet about their fellow travelers.
Quote from: Brad;1140814As has already been pointed out multiple times, you're simply conflating SJW cancel culture with "You shouldn't give WotC money because they suck." The latter is equivalent to "old man shouts at cloud", the former is outright Orwellian history revision. If you're just going to stick with that line of reasoning, you're either retarded or being purposefully disingenuous. If you honestly don't give a fuck what people play, why are you so hypocritical and telling them they're wrong for not wanting to play WotC games, regardless of their reasons for doing so?
Who have I told was wrong for not wanting to play WOTC games?
"Don't buy or play X because [Author/Company] sucks" is in fact what SJW are doing. The fact you also know that's what they're doing is pretty obvious in the fact you never offer anything to demonstrate it's meaningfully more and just keep repeating the claim that it is as if it's self-evident.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1140819That's not an argument, that's a Strawman. Nobody is "judging which RPGs others buy" (Whatever the fuck that means in your addled and disingenuous mind.)
The fuck they're not! I posted evidence of that happening here and you conveniently every time remove it from any quote and then just repeat it didn't happen like we didn't all just fucking see it with our own eyes.
QuoteBut I bet you'd never advocate for us to not say you should fight the religious fundamentalists, except if those fundamentalists are from your cult.
I am not saying you should not fight SJWs attempts to change the culture. I am saying you should not be judging other people for the games they like, and should not be telling people they should not buy and play the games they like. If you like a Christian Fundamentalist RPG, then by all means go buy it and play it.
Quote from: Mistwell;1140822The fuck they're not! I posted evidence of that happening here and you conveniently every time remove it from any quote and then just repeat it didn't happen like we didn't all just fucking see it with our own eyes.
I am not saying you should not fight SJWs attempts to change the culture. I am saying you should not be judging other people for the games they like, and should not be telling people they should not buy and play the games they like. If you like a Christian Fundamentalist RPG, then by all means go buy it and play it.
But then, how should they fight it if telling people a company is woke is just as bad as what they're doing.
Quote from: Mistwell;1140822The fuck they're not! I posted evidence of that happening here and you conveniently every time remove it from any quote and then just repeat it didn't happen like we didn't all just fucking see it with our own eyes.
I am not saying you should not fight SJWs attempts to change the culture. I am saying you should not be judging other people for the games they like, and should not be telling people they should not buy and play the games they like. If you like a Christian Fundamentalist RPG, then by all means go buy it and play it.
Listen you lying piece of shit, provide evidence that I remove ANY evidence. Projection your name is Mistwell, you're the one that does the quote mining, conflating the individual with the whole and strawmans.
As proven by your selective editing of the post you're responding to.
YOU intentionally left out everything about the Christian RPGs and about Vikernes, because YOU know your cult is just like the Christian fundamentalists of the Satanic Panic, only difference this time around is it's an Istophobe Panic.
So go fuck yourself, we're not the same as you or your fellow travelers.
Quote from: Mistwell;1140820Who have I told was wrong for not wanting to play WOTC games?
"Don't buy or play X because [Author/Company] sucks" is in fact what SJW are doing. The fact you also know that's what they're doing is pretty obvious in the fact you never offer anything to demonstrate it's meaningfully more and just keep repeating the claim that it is as if it's self-evident.
Nope, what your fellow travelers ARE doing is cancelling people, trying to get them banned from DTRPG, Conventions, Stores, etc. Getting them fired and trying to make them unemployable by tarnishing them as Istophobes.
What WE are doing is simply pointing out that if you think not giving your money to the Woke Scolds is a good thing then here are some you should avoid and here are some you should support.
Notice that everything depends on IF any individual thinks that giving their money to the SocJus Cult Zealots is a bad thing, nobody here is going to try and ruin the life of those who think different, unlike your fellow travelers.
Quote from: Mistwell;1140820"Don't buy or play X because [Author/Company] sucks" is in fact what SJW are doing.
No it's not. The fact you keep pretending it is just demonstrates you have an agenda that is impervious to facts.
Quote from: Mistwell;1140820Who have I told was wrong for not wanting to play WOTC games?
"Don't buy or play X because [Author/Company] sucks" is in fact what SJW are doing.
SJWs don't advocate in the marketplace of ideas. They don't seriously try to persuade normies not to buy X. They attack X and they try to get it MADE UNAVAILABLE.
Cancelled.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1140819I would never buy a Christian TTRPG (and they exist), because I don't want to be preached in my entertainment.
Semi-off-topic but I think of someone like who did the Redemption CCG were to make an RPG it might actually work as Redemption is about the least preachy Christian game out there. Pretty much my go-to as an example of how to do that right.
And this is something WOTC could stand to learn from if they plan to shove their new religion on everyone they can.
Quote from: Mistwell;1140822The fuck they're not! I posted evidence of that happening here and you conveniently every time remove it from any quote and then just repeat it didn't happen like we didn't all just fucking see it with our own eyes.
I am not saying you should not fight SJWs attempts to change the culture. I am saying you should not be judging other people for the games they like, and should not be telling people they should not buy and play the games they like. If you like a Christian Fundamentalist RPG, then by all means go buy it and play it.
I think its more that some here have stated that they themselves wouldnt buy a game from a publisher or designer they dont like for whatever reason. Not that they intent to tell others to do the the same.
Instead several here want to warn people there is a problem and let them decide on their own if they want to support a company that is up to no good or not.
Example. I stopped doing business with Games Workshop after discovering their absolutely reprehensible treatment of their workers. I have no intention of putting another dime in GWs pocket ever again unless something seriously changes. And despite the pontifications of the cult. It hasnt. Same with GameStop. Only worse. Both of these I warn others about the problems and why doing business with them is fraught with trouble.
Or on a more personal note. Dragon Storm I eventually had to sever ties with not because of the publisher. But because of the organized play's managers treating players poorly to the point customers got fed up with it and quit. BDP didnt see this even when told about it and believed the org play's lies. I talked with alot of players and it was near uniformly the same. They loved the RPG. But were increasingly dissatisfied with the org play. Some to the point they quit the game alltogether. Others continued to play privately. And word spread. And sales gradually sank and sank and sank. Its something that bothers me even now as I had a blast with being a part of that and designing and footing the bill for new cards. As did others. Then we all got slapped in the face and of course that enthusieasms going to wither. I just hung on a little longer than others.
But warning people of a real problem is not "cancel culture". Warning people of made up fake problems on the other hand very much is.
Or to use another unfortunately personal example. I know at least two artists who regularly scam customers and I am not shy about warning people not to do business with these crooks. And I never did business with an artist way back who had a rep for holding customers sketchbooks hostage to extort more money from. Theres actually at least one site set up now to warn people about these sorts of problems in the art biz.
WOTC is creating their own problem. Again. This happened back in the early 2000s when word got out of just how nasty WOTC was in setting up their stores and the underhanded dealings they were committing against local game stores to drive them out of business. Locally they ruined two. This and they had a bad habit of treating customers for non-WOTC product poorly. And later regular customers too and people just stopped going to the WOTC stores as word spread.
Wow, Chris Gonnerman is completely freaking out over our video?!
https://www.basicfantasy.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3891
I'm trying to wrap my head around it, because our take was very milquetoast. Does he not get on YouTube much? We're a very tame channel. (Gawd, his head would explode if he watched The Quartering.)
I don't understand all the drama. We didn't say anything "out of turn" that I'm aware of. We actually agree that politics don't have a place at the gaming table, unless the campaign calls for it and/or the group wants it. And I never said that Gonnerman endorsed anything I said. Just that the system was good, it was exactly what I was looking for, and I think WotC has gotten weirdly political lately. It's WotC, in my opinion, that is increasingly forcing its political views onto the players.
I also can't vouch for anyone who is trying to use our relatively tame video as a "blunt instrument" for their own political views. That's on them, not on us.
If it's because he's getting people coming to him back channel with "concerns" about being associated with Clownfish TV, then it's your peers you should be afraid of... not us. We're pretty middle-of-the-road and work with "geek brands" all the time. Not Wizards, obviously. ;)
That being said, I don't understand why he's going to all the trouble of making a forum post about it, when he could just... you know... drop me an email?
Such a fuss over something I thought would just be a filler video. :confused:
Quote from: Kneon from Clownfish TV;1142763Wow, Chris Gonnerman is completely freaking out over our video?!
https://www.basicfantasy.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3891
I'm trying to wrap my head around it, because our take was very milquetoast. Does he not get on YouTube much? We're a very tame channel. (Gawd, his head would explode if he watched The Quartering.)
I don't understand all the drama. We didn't say anything "out of turn" that I'm aware of. We actually agree that politics don't have a place at the gaming table, unless the campaign calls for it and/or the group wants it. And I never said that Gonnerman endorsed anything I said. Just that the system was good, it was exactly what I was looking for, and I think WotC has gotten weirdly political lately. It's WotC, in my opinion, that is increasingly forcing its political views onto the players.
I also can't vouch for anyone who is trying to use our relatively tame video as a "blunt instrument" for their own political views. That's on them, not on us.
If it's because he's getting people coming to him back channel with "concerns" about being associated with Clownfish TV, then it's your peers you should be afraid of... not us. We're pretty middle-of-the-road and work with "geek brands" all the time. Not Wizards, obviously. ;)
That being said, I don't understand why he's going to all the trouble of making a forum post about it, when he could just... you know... drop me an email?
Such a fuss over something I thought would just be a filler video. :confused:
I don't see anything new/recent on Gonnerman's thread?
If you want someone who won't condemn you for recommending their OSR system :D I recommend Adventurer Conquerer King by Alex Macris - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/99123/Adventurer-Conqueror-King-System - bit pricier than BFRPG, but very nicely done. And very easy to run those free/dirt cheap BFRPG adventures with it!
That guy 'Justin' who innocently recommended Basic Fantasy to Clownfish is like the guy behind the grassy knoll. Heh
Can't beat the price for what you get.
It looks like he's trying to get his YT post likes up so it jumps up to the top of the comment list, which says leave modern social politics at the door, which I whole heartily approve of.
I felt that was the point of your video as well, but there is no way he can frame himself agreeing your viewpoint in today's climate without his forum descending into madness with nitwits decrying everything they see.
I think he likes the low-profile his game has as it seems to avoid the goofy crap the more popular games are currently dancing around, trying to make sure their sales and brand identity don't suffer.
Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies;1142785That guy 'Justin' who innocently recommended Basic Fantasy to Clownfish is like the guy behind the grassy knoll. Heh
Can't beat the price for what you get.
It looks like he's trying to get his YT post likes up so it jumps up to the top of the comment list, which says leave modern social politics at the door, which I whole heartily approve of.
I felt that was the point of your video as well, but there is no way he can frame himself agreeing your viewpoint in today's climate without his forum descending into madness with nitwits decrying everything they see.
I think he likes the low-profile his game has as it seems to avoid the goofy crap the more popular games are currently dancing around, trying to make sure their sales and brand identity don't suffer.
We are literally
in agreement with Gonnerman. We don't want modern politics in gaming... WOTC keeps foisting it upon fans. We offered a solid alternative to 5e. We didn't attribute our opinions to Gonnerman or Basic RPG. I don't know him, and had never even heard of the system until a viewer pointed it out.
Eh, even if he hates us for whatever reason, we'll still recommend the system. It feels more like D&D than what I've seen from WOTC lately.
You really ought to check out Beyond the Wall and Other Adventures (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/113405/Beyond-the-Wall-and-Other-Adventures), especially if you're playing with your kids. It's easily become my favorite OSR game. Check out the review video on the page I linked for a look / page through of it.
Quote from: Kneon from Clownfish TV;1142804We are literally in agreement with Gonnerman. We don't want modern politics in gaming
Gonnerman wants the same, but I believe his issue was that after your video aired, he had people posting on his forum and Facebook page bashing WoTC and SJWs. He wanted those places to be 100% apolitical, and he sees the blatant bashing of woke politics to be political, rather than apolitical. He didn't want his forum and his Facebook page turned into a haven for wokeness-bashing due to the increased traffic from your video. At least, I think that's what he is saying. I could be wrong.
Quote from: Crusader X;1142809Gonnerman wants the same, but I believe his issue was that after your video aired, he had people posting on his forum and Facebook page bashing WoTC and SJWs. He wanted those places to be 100% apolitical, and he sees the blatant bashing of woke politics to be political, rather than apolitical. He didn't want his forum and his Facebook page turned into a haven for wokeness-bashing due to the increased traffic from your video. At least, I think that's what he is saying. I could be wrong.
Plus, on Facebook (a woke extremely leftist company), it's a quick way to get your page taken down and banned. The best way to avoid that is to maintain a strict neutral position. Eventually though the woke won't tolerate that either. Refusing to take a side is still taking a side, as they like to say.
Quote from: Kneon from Clownfish TV;1142804We are literally in agreement with Gonnerman. We don't want modern politics in gaming... WOTC keeps foisting it upon fans. We offered a solid alternative to 5e. We didn't attribute our opinions to Gonnerman or Basic RPG. I don't know him, and had never even heard of the system until a viewer pointed it out.
Eh, even if he hates us for whatever reason, we'll still recommend the system. It feels more like D&D than what I've seen from WOTC lately.
That sucks. I suggest you buy rpgs from the anti sjw devs if your going to be treated like this. My only guess is that Gonnerman didn't like the additional attention.
Quote from: Crusader X;1142809Gonnerman wants the same, but I believe his issue was that after your video aired, he had people posting on his forum and Facebook page bashing WoTC and SJWs. He wanted those places to be 100% apolitical, and he sees the blatant bashing of woke politics to be political, rather than apolitical. He didn't want his forum and his Facebook page turned into a haven for wokeness-bashing due to the increased traffic from your video. At least, I think that's what he is saying. I could be wrong.
That's my impression. He seems to agree with WoTC politics but doesn't want his game politicised. Which is a perfectly reasonable view. He could probably have reacted better.