Hiya everyone. Hoping the year is closing up for you well.

Something I've struggled in with my system is how to handle thrown objects. As it turns out coming up with blanket rules for throwing is quite difficult in a game where a character can potentially lift up anything and use it as a weapon.

I had the idea that any weapon meant to be thrown would have a preset range, likely equal to a certain amount + the character's Strength and/or Agility scores. This would let someone throw a grenade but also would have different rules if someone tried to pick up and throw a brick or someone's body. There's also the issue of stat ranges. A normal human wouldn't be able to throw something nearly as far someone with superhuman strength, for example.

Originally I had the rule that a character could throw an object equal to 30 meters + their combined Strength and Agility score. Which works great for stuff like Shuriken or Grenades (though a little generous), not so much for throwing someone's body into another room. I might patch that and say that for objects that aren't meant to be thrown, the weight class serves as a divider for range. So trying to throw something like a body would divide the range by 10 or so.

One final issue is the issue of characters with super strength throwing a car. No one is going to use a car as a weapon if they can't throw it far enough to land off of their body. Perhaps add a line that being able to lift a certain amount would make you ignore increased weight classes.

How do you handle this sort of thing?

I would start with Distance = Mass x Velocity.

For Velocity I would use the greater of Strength or Agility. This recognizes that different attributes contribute to throwing without having to do a calculation.

For Mass I would use a multiple based on the class of object. Light throwing weapons = 3, medium = 2, heavy = 1. That kind of thing. If the Strength and Agility numbers are already set by the system, you can use Mass as a fudge factor.

Happy new year!

I actually handled this design issue very recently for my game.  To start, I took several objects with different weights and looked on line at things like throw distance for typical person, world record distance, maximum accurate throw distance and so on.  I'm not home to check, but I think the objects were something like dart, baseball, bowling ball, barrel

You could find people who practice with thrown weapons, i.e. axes, knives, javelins, etc. and ask them what good ranges would be?  Most cities have axe throwing bars like this one:

https://www.kickaxe.com/

You could go there and possiboy get several different opinions.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 31, 2021, 03:41:58 PM
I would start with Distance = Mass x Velocity.

For Velocity I would use the greater of Strength or Agility. This recognizes that different attributes contribute to throwing without having to do a calculation.

For Mass I would use a multiple based on the class of object. Light throwing weapons = 3, medium = 2, heavy = 1. That kind of thing. If the Strength and Agility numbers are already set by the system, you can use Mass as a fudge factor.

Strength matters most for throwing heavy objects like a shotput (or a car).  For light objects, though, agility matters most because the limit is how fast you can move your hand rather than how strong you push it. So throwing distance should be based on how much more Strength you have than what is needed to lift the object, with an upper bound set by your Agility/Dexterity.

How to relate them depends on whether Strength is linear, geometric, or logarithmic. Some older systems like Hero, Torg, DC Heroes used logarithmic scales, which are good for superheroic scale. distance thrown ~ square root of acceleration (thrown straight) or linear with acceleration (if lobbed in an arc). Other systems are linear or indeterminate.

Another factor is ceiling height or similar obstructions like trees with overhead branches. Anything that will limit the ability to arch a throw for greater distance.

That probably will never come into play, but if it does I'd ad hoc the solution.

I'm mainly looking neat system that can portray the range from normal to superhuman without breaking and letting people throw heavy ass things across a parking lot despite being a normal human.

Quote from: PsyXypher on January 02, 2022, 07:30:56 PM
That probably will never come into play, but if it does I'd ad hoc the solution.

I'm mainly looking neat system that can portray the range from normal to superhuman without breaking and letting people throw heavy ass things across a parking lot despite being a normal human.

What's the strength scale for your system like? If I know that, I can offer some more specifics.

This is actually three different questions:

1. how far can you throw something? This is a function of what most games call "strength", though skill - practice - does come into it.
2. how far can you throw it accurately? This is a function of what most games call something like "dexterity", and skill - practice - is a much, much bigger factor than for #1.
3. how far can you throw it if it's designed to be thrown? This is a factor of the thing's design.

Most games simply set ranges of "short", "medium" etc for each weapon, ranges which are unaffected by strength, and leave GMs to handwave non-weapon things being thrown.

One problem is that not all objects are equal for throwing due to simply not being meant for throwing or suitable.

Your average round-ish rock can be chucked a good distance and do some damage. A chair on the other hand probably wont get as far. But a stool might get some distance and do some harm. And so on.

When I was doing my own system I just looked at the average throwing distances of various objects and sorted them into a sort-of "meant to be thrown" pile and a "improvise" pile that tended to get less distance. And with those two sets I sub-divided into short, medium and long range throwable. And noted that anything with a long range tends to need clearance to arch and without that the ranges are halved.
That way GMs would not have to finagle with every item and situation.

Quote from: jhkim on January 02, 2022, 10:25:39 PM

Quote from: PsyXypher on January 02, 2022, 07:30:56 PM
That probably will never come into play, but if it does I'd ad hoc the solution.

I'm mainly looking neat system that can portray the range from normal to superhuman without breaking and letting people throw heavy ass things across a parking lot despite being a normal human.

What's the strength scale for your system like? If I know that, I can offer some more specifics.

I use a sort of d20 stat system where average stats range from 4 to 24 and can increase over the term of gameplay. 14 is considered an average stat for a Player Character, while 10 is considered a "neutral" stat, as in it doesn't give any bonuses or maluses.

It's possible to get incredibly high strength, but it's very rare for a character to exceed 50 (which is considered "Super Strength") in the course of gameplay unless they specialize in that. 50 Strength is enough to lift a car, and also enough to splatter a normal human with a punch. Durable humans might survive, but it'd be like getting hit by a car. For other superhumans (called "Genes" in this game. They're basically mutants) it'd be like being hit on the side with a heavy bludgeon; it'll kill you if it's hard enough, but more than likely it'll knock the wind out of you and break your ribs. Melee damage can be deadly, but that's supposed to be balanced out by the fact that you still need to get into punching range. I might nerf how unarmed damage works, but I'm mainly concerned with pushing out a functional system.

Quote from: PsyXypher on January 03, 2022, 10:44:52 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 02, 2022, 10:25:39 PM
What's the strength scale for your system like? If I know that, I can offer some more specifics.

I use a sort of d20 stat system where average stats range from 4 to 24 and can increase over the term of gameplay. 14 is considered an average stat for a Player Character, while 10 is considered a "neutral" stat, as in it doesn't give any bonuses or maluses.

It's possible to get incredibly high strength, but it's very rare for a character to exceed 50 (which is considered "Super Strength") in the course of gameplay unless they specialize in that. 50 Strength is enough to lift a car, and also enough to splatter a normal human with a punch. Durable humans might survive, but it'd be like getting hit by a car. For other superhumans (called "Genes" in this game. They're basically mutants) it'd be like being hit on the side with a heavy bludgeon; it'll kill you if it's hard enough, but more than likely it'll knock the wind out of you and break your ribs. Melee damage can be deadly, but that's supposed to be balanced out by the fact that you still need to get into punching range. I might nerf how unarmed damage works, but I'm mainly concerned with pushing out a functional system.

OK, so it seems like Strength might be geometric. A person's lift is like their Strength score squared, in kilograms. That makes average at 100kg, max human at 576kg, and superhuman 50 at 2500kg (which is a moderate pickup truck). That's more than a deadlift - but it scales roughly correctly. For maximum throw distance, take this lift divided by the object's weight (in kilograms) divided by five for meters. So an average person (Str 10, lift 100) throwing a shotput (weight 7kg) can throw it 15/5 = 3 meters.

But set a maximum distance of maybe 3x their Agility score assuming it's on the same scale. Add a little for a very aerodynamic object like a javelin, more for a frisbee, less for an unwieldy object. Multiply by some factor if they can swing it like a hammer throw or sling.

You can tweak those numbers to get more accuracy, but it's in roughly the ballpark.

Quote from: jhkim on January 04, 2022, 03:05:38 AM

Quote from: PsyXypher on January 03, 2022, 10:44:52 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 02, 2022, 10:25:39 PM
What's the strength scale for your system like? If I know that, I can offer some more specifics.

I use a sort of d20 stat system where average stats range from 4 to 24 and can increase over the term of gameplay. 14 is considered an average stat for a Player Character, while 10 is considered a "neutral" stat, as in it doesn't give any bonuses or maluses.

It's possible to get incredibly high strength, but it's very rare for a character to exceed 50 (which is considered "Super Strength") in the course of gameplay unless they specialize in that. 50 Strength is enough to lift a car, and also enough to splatter a normal human with a punch. Durable humans might survive, but it'd be like getting hit by a car. For other superhumans (called "Genes" in this game. They're basically mutants) it'd be like being hit on the side with a heavy bludgeon; it'll kill you if it's hard enough, but more than likely it'll knock the wind out of you and break your ribs. Melee damage can be deadly, but that's supposed to be balanced out by the fact that you still need to get into punching range. I might nerf how unarmed damage works, but I'm mainly concerned with pushing out a functional system.

OK, so it seems like Strength might be geometric. A person's lift is like their Strength score squared, in kilograms. That makes average at 100kg, max human at 576kg, and superhuman 50 at 2500kg (which is a moderate pickup truck). That's more than a deadlift - but it scales roughly correctly. For maximum throw distance, take this lift divided by the object's weight (in kilograms) divided by five for meters. So an average person (Str 10, lift 100) throwing a shotput (weight 7kg) can throw it 15/5 = 3 meters.

But set a maximum distance of maybe 3x their Agility score assuming it's on the same scale. Add a little for a very aerodynamic object like a javelin, more for a frisbee, less for an unwieldy object. Multiply by some factor if they can swing it like a hammer throw or sling.

You can tweak those numbers to get more accuracy, but it's in roughly the ballpark.

Strength is more of a lookup table than an equation. I should have noted this earlier, whoops.

From 1 to 20, the multiplier is your Strength times 20. From 21-29, it's times 25, and it just keeps incrementing from there. 50 is STR times 40 (side point, but I know this isn't enough to lift a modern car; the alternate timelineness of this game probably has cars that are super lightweight) and will keep jumping from there.

This is...an inelegant way to do it, but I feel it helps emulate what I'm going for well. I have given some thought to changing around the numbers (so when you start going into the "Super" strength category, you're a lot stronger in terms of raw pounds) but your solution does give me ideas. Big thanks, this has been bothering me for months.

Quote from: Omega on January 03, 2022, 10:02:11 AM
One problem is that not all objects are equal for throwing due to simply not being meant for throwing or suitable.

Your average round-ish rock can be chucked a good distance and do some damage. A chair on the other hand probably wont get as far. But a stool might get some distance and do some harm. And so on.

If you want to really get lost in the simulation, consider the difference between rigid bodies and soft bodies. Rigid bodies can move, but cannot stretch or deform, unlike soft bodies. They have completely different dynamics in motion.

Quote from: jhkim on January 01, 2022, 04:40:26 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 31, 2021, 03:41:58 PM
I would start with Distance = Mass x Velocity.

For Velocity I would use the greater of Strength or Agility. This recognizes that different attributes contribute to throwing without having to do a calculation.

For Mass I would use a multiple based on the class of object. Light throwing weapons = 3, medium = 2, heavy = 1. That kind of thing. If the Strength and Agility numbers are already set by the system, you can use Mass as a fudge factor.

Strength matters most for throwing heavy objects like a shotput (or a car).  For light objects, though, agility matters most because the limit is how fast you can move your hand rather than how strong you push it. So throwing distance should be based on how much more Strength you have than what is needed to lift the object, with an upper bound set by your Agility/Dexterity.

How to relate them depends on whether Strength is linear, geometric, or logarithmic. Some older systems like Hero, Torg, DC Heroes used logarithmic scales, which are good for superheroic scale. distance thrown ~ square root of acceleration (thrown straight) or linear with acceleration (if lobbed in an arc). Other systems are linear or indeterminate.

You're probably right as far as a simulation approach goes. My approach is abstract and intended to be easy to remember and fast to figure out.