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I'm curious about peoples thought on very basic introductory rule sets, quick start rules etc.

I can see the value of free rules, to let people get the basics of how the rules work. Potentially I can see how that might entice someone to buy the complete rules if they like what they see.

I've never found limited beginner's rules to be attractive to buy. I remember being very disappointed early on when I bought what I thought was Traveller's 3 LBB core books in one larger book, only to find it was a very reduced version of the game. As a result I'm not much of a fan of buying "basic" rules of a more complete rules set.


I can see the value of a limited stand alone "players" book, to offer players a less expensive option of only the rules a player will need vs the complete rules a GM will require. I'm not talking about those books here.


I'm really curious to know how useful these quick start rules are towards enticing someone to buy the complete game.




Poll attached (I hope, first time doing a poll), please feel free to comment in addition to the poll.

I voted, but now have a tangential question.
I am not familiar with the truncated edition of the Classic Traveller Books 1-3 you are Referee referring to. I have done a lot of digging into the Classic Traveller line and am not familiar with the version you reference. Can you tell me more? Point me in the direction of it?
Thanks!

I think there's a point where an experienced gamer isn't interested in an introductory set, while a new gamer might be.
I love the original Red Box D&D set, but I've since never been interested in introductory sets. I want the whole thing so I can see all the rules and content. (Higher level spells and all)

On the one hand, QuickStart rules provide a flavour of the full game. However, on the other hand, they are frustratingly incomplete.

I would not pay for QuickStart rules, preferring to wait until the full version comes out. However, am happy to download a free version.

I ran a 12 session campaign using the Pathfinder Beginner Box, that was great. And the Mentzer Red Box & Moldvay Basic are fantastic too, I have occasionally used them alone. OTOH there are a lot of garbage starter sets, WoTC put out several.

The FFG starter set for Edge of the Empire tipped me into that system. It helped that it provided good value with a set of custom dice, tokens for Force Points, characters, etc, and a full colour double sided poster-map, as well as rules, pregen characters and a starter adventure. For less than the hardcover core rules, which would need the dice anyway.


I love grabbing free pdf quoickstarts, they are a great way of deciding if I like a game enough to want to pursue it further.  Some I look at and decide they are not for me.  With the cost of a full rules book these days it helps.

After blowing over a hundred dollars on D&D 4E and finding it sucked, I won't drop a huge amount of money on anything new. WotC's 5E Introductory Set was crippleware because you couldn't make characters with it, but their free 5E Basic Game PDF is great because it lets you fully sample the game before going further (including character generation).

I love the idea of quick-starts but most of the Free RPG Day quick-starts I've read aren't very good -not because they're incomplete, but because they try to cram in too much and become unreadable and/or unwieldy. If someone like myself (35 years of RPG experience) is annoyed or confused, I'd imagine that a newbie would just be completely lost.

If it is a gimped edition version of a full game (i.e. missing vital components like character creation) it should be free.

If it is a complete game in its own right but just missing some of the options in the full game (fewer classes, for instance) I would consider paying for it, as I prefer lighter games. Although I can't say it would necessarily entice me to buy the full game if that looked too heavy.

It entirely depends on the contents of the free quick start rules.  I will say, no character creation in the quick start and I will never buy your products ever.  I'm not saying that will impact anyone else's decision but here's my reasoning.  Character creation is the heart of an rpg.  It's what sets them apart from board games and writing stories.  If you aren't going to show me character creation in your point of entry, I'm not buying your stuff.

I like free quickstart or abridged rules to get a feel for mechanics, but can also often glean this from reviews. I would not pay for such things however.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;1007361I voted, but now have a tangential question.
I am not familiar with the truncated edition of the Classic Traveller Books 1-3 you are Referee referring to. I have done a lot of digging into the Classic Traveller line and am not familiar with the version you reference. Can you tell me more? Point me in the direction of it?
Thanks!

You are asking me to dredge up probably a 38 year old memory...  All I can recall is it was an 8 1/2 x 11" Traveller book (possibly in a box?) marketed as a complete rule set. It was very bare bones and lacked much of the rules from the 3 core LBBs. I was very disappointed as I had played Traveller but didn't own the books.

Looking at Wikipedia under Traveller, I suspect it might have been the Traveller Starter edition.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1007560You are asking me to dredge up probably a 38 year old memory...  All I can recall is it was an 8 1/2 x 11" Traveller book (possibly in a box?) marketed as a complete rule set. It was very bare bones and lacked much of the rules from the 3 core LBBs. I was very disappointed as I had played Traveller but didn't own the books.

Looking at Wikipedia under Traveller, I suspect it might have been the Traveller Starter edition.

Yea, probably Starter Traveller, the differences between that and 1977, 1981, and The Traveller Book are well documented in my Traveller Section by Section Comparison:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jsH-EgKvaR0mdbtJMj_Xj7X3TcYyZTqQGf-Gwu58PX0/edit?usp=sharing

Note that as a truncated rule set, it is amazingly complete, and has a functional simplified ship combat system that is usable outside the realm of introductory gaming.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1007362I think there's a point where an experienced gamer isn't interested in an introductory set, while a new gamer might be.
I love the original Red Box D&D set, but I've since never been interested in introductory sets. I want the whole thing so I can see all the rules and content. (Higher level spells and all)

As I recall those older boxed "basic" D&D sets were level based? So you could buy the first set to cover low levels, then another for the next range of levels etc? I mostly played AD&D / 2nd ed and only had a little exposure to the "basic" D&D rule sets. That actually seems a reasonable way to offer a less expensive intro without actually making the intro a "lesser" product, it is simply the first product needed. Probably limited in the kinds of games that would work for though class / level based games making it easier to sort the needed rules.
 

Quote from: soltakss;1007372On the one hand, QuickStart rules provide a flavour of the full game. However, on the other hand, they are frustratingly incomplete.

I would not pay for QuickStart rules, preferring to wait until the full version comes out. However, am happy to download a free version.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;1007385I love the idea of quick-starts but most of the Free RPG Day quick-starts I've read aren't very good -not because they're incomplete, but because they try to cram in too much and become unreadable and/or unwieldy. If someone like myself (35 years of RPG experience) is annoyed or confused, I'd imagine that a newbie would just be completely lost.

This fits my experience as well. Free not such a big deal because it is free, but if I am paying for it I expect a complete game. Obviously not one with all the options as the complete game, but a coherent stand alone rule set. It seems like many are hack jobs of editing to reach a specific smaller page count rather than re-writing a just the bare bones rule set that gives the flavor and tone of the rules.

The old Basic Role Playing handout from Chaosium was a fairly decent example of this in my opinion. It was a complete no frills low fantasy RPG in about 20 pages, much simpler than RQ but one could easily go from one to the other.

I think the Basic/Expert D&D (later expanded with Companion and Master) is a good model. When you buy the subsequent modules, you aren't getting significant duplicate material.

Starter rules that give you most of what you need to play a character generated using the full rules could work well, especially if free. The GM buys the full rules, gives out the intro rules to the players, and then chargen is done in a game session with folks who have had a chance to read the rules.

Paying for a truncated rule set that is superseded by the full rules is a waste of money.

All of this said by someone who got started in RPGs when his best friend got Holmes Basic for his birthday in the fall of 1977, but past that weekend, we never used Basic D&D.

Frank

Quote from: ffilz;1007564Yea, probably Starter Traveller, the differences between that and 1977, 1981, and The Traveller Book are well documented in my Traveller Section by Section Comparison:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jsH-EgKvaR0mdbtJMj_Xj7X3TcYyZTqQGf-Gwu58PX0/edit?usp=sharing

Note that as a truncated rule set, it is amazingly complete, and has a functional simplified ship combat system that is usable outside the realm of introductory gaming.

It may have been, and may have even been clearly marked as such. I just remember being very disappointed that it wasn't what I thought it was. 13-14 is not exactly the age of solid reasoning. :D

Traveller books must not have been super easy to get, as I bought plenty of games, and generally owned my own copies of games I played regularly but somehow I always relied on others Traveller books. I still don't own any LBB traveller stuff despite having a large collection of GDW games.

Quote from: ffilz;1007566I think the Basic/Expert D&D (later expanded with Companion and Master) is a good model. When you buy the subsequent modules, you aren't getting significant duplicate material.

Starter rules that give you most of what you need to play a character generated using the full rules could work well, especially if free. The GM buys the full rules, gives out the intro rules to the players, and then chargen is done in a game session with folks who have had a chance to read the rules.

Paying for a truncated rule set that is superseded by the full rules is a waste of money.

All of this said by someone who got started in RPGs when his best friend got Holmes Basic for his birthday in the fall of 1977, but past that weekend, we never used Basic D&D.

Frank

I'm not sure that exact model would work for games like GURPS or HERO at least at a basic level. I mean that is exactly how they work when you look at it as core rules, and then magic books, supers books etc.

I do like that "basic" D&D was its own thing though, not just a neutered AD&D. I think that makes it a far more viable product because it stands on its own, it isn't a throw away or a "for dummies" version. It may have started out that way but it became its own game line with on going support which made it both an introduction to AD&D and a stand alone game for people who didn't want the added complexity of AD&D.

That is something I think more complex games like HERO and GURPS could really use as an intro to the larger game, rather than just saying hey ignore 1/2 the rules in the books you bought if you want an easier game.

I don't tend to buy into to starter sets much. They are usually 'incomplete' and as such, I prefer just getting the rules for free online if I need to.

Having said that, I've just received my new Mongoose Traveller Starter box, which has all the Core rules reprinted into two books, an extra book for a starter campaign, maps, pregens and dice (and room to put more character sheets and dice in it(. It has more utility than just buying the Core Rules book alone, and consequently I prefer the format, although I appreciate the choice.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1007565As I recall those older boxed "basic" D&D sets were level based? So you could buy the first set to cover low levels, then another for the next range of levels etc? I mostly played AD&D / 2nd ed and only had a little exposure to the "basic" D&D rule sets. That actually seems a reasonable way to offer a less expensive intro without actually making the intro a "lesser" product, it is simply the first product needed. Probably limited in the kinds of games that would work for though class / level based games making it easier to sort the needed rules.
 

Yeah, it was actually pretty neat. You got just enough to play levels 1-3, 4-6, ?? and they went from Dungeon to Wilderness Exploration to Stronghold Management.
Thinking about it this way, I think the appeal was the limited scope of the rules, that added gameplay methods as you got the expansions.

I generally view quick start rules as advertising.  If it's something I'm interested in, I might check it out, the same way I would a design article or a promotional article.  But I don't want to play with quick start rules.

Now, the exception would be where the game is modular, and the so called "quick start" is a playable game in its own right.  But even then, I don't want a lot of boilerplate or retreads in the later modules.

Some other thoughts. Some quick starts I own that I can think of:

Basic D&D (Holmes, Moldvay, Mentzer). I have only ever played Holmes.

Basic Role Playing booklet (my first copy was in Call of Cthulhu, my current copy is from RQ2 boxed set).

Burning Wheel Revised Hub and Spokes, Burning Wheel Gold Hub and Spokes

Other than Holmes Basic D&D, I have actually used none of these in play. I have shared Burning Wheel Hub & Spokes with players (or at least pointed to where they could download it themselves), but it's actually an excerpt from the rule book, so free AND not a dumbed down version.

'Dumbed down' seems a meaningless term when it comes to game rules. More extensive or complex rules are hardly more 'intelligent' are they?

I guess I should post to reflect what nearly half the polls reflects: if I'm interested in a game I download and check out the free quickstart before purchasing. Why wouldn't you actually?

The Red Box was my intro to D&D and most of my peers. Clearly the D&D intro set has an important role in introducing kids to RPGs in general.

I agree that for me too it depends on the contents of the quick-start rules.

My first RPG game was Melee ($3.95 1980 dol, the first microgame for The Fantasy Trip, which was designed as a stand-alone arena combat game, and was very good (I would still play it for fun today), focused, and easy to learn (I could reproduce all the rules from memory today with probably 97% accuracy). It was a really effective way to get people to learn the core combat system and be able to play right away, and there were several programmed adventures which could be played with only it. So that was clearly good in many ways.

Man To Man (http://www.warehouse23.com/products/man-to-man), the first GURPS product, was very similar in that it was just the combat system, a very good game by itself, focused, and relatively easy to learn. I bought it as soon as I saw it on the shelf, never having heard of it, and discovered to my delight that it was essentially the redesign of TFT combat that we'd been working on ourselves after becoming unsatisfied with TFT after 7 years of heavy play, only finished and playtested. So that was also great. But it was also practically as complicated as GURPS rules ever got until GURPS Martial Arts and some magazine articles with advanced optional rules were published.

GURPS later released a GURPS Lite free rule set (http://www.warehouse23.com/products/gurps-lite-fourth-edition), which is more than just the combat system but has "Lite" versions of the rules, including the non-combat rules, and I guess is ok as an free intro overview, but it doesn't give you a fun tactical combat game like Melee and Man To Man did, so it seems a bit "lite" to me. If I weren't already a fan and read just that, I might think GURPS is fairly generic in way that might seem not that interesting, as what I like about GURPS is the very detailed tactical combat system.

I guess I have particular bias in this way, but what I'd want in an intro set of other rules would probably be something like Melee or Man to Man: a fairly complete version of mainly the combat system.

I don't like limited rule sets. I published free versions of StarCluster 2, 3, and now 4 which are *not* dumbed down. I also publish some free settings to use with them. Personally, I use StarCluster 4 Free as the base for any one off game I make, along with the SC4 tool boxes.

I think most starter-sets are too bare-bones to be of use.  One of the things I really pushed for with D&D 5e basic is that it be really usable, that you could play a whole game with it if that's what you wanted.

The Traveller Starter Set has everything from the Core Rule book reprinted, plus a short campaign, maps, pregens and dice.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;1008054The Traveller Starter Set has everything from the Core Rule book reprinted, plus a short campaign, maps, pregens and dice.

Which Traveller Starter Set? I'm assuming you mean Mongoose 2e...

The first Starter Traveller as an into to Classic Traveller was nice. It has a nice simplified space combat system, a nice booklet of charts and tables. The most significant bits it's missing are the drugs and experience sections, neither of which is necessary for play (the Traveller experience system not being a traditional XP system).

I agree with RPGPundit that many starter sets are missing too much, the Classic Traveller Starter Set is certainly a very playable set, and had a GM eventually got The Traveller Book or Deluxe Traveller, handing the Starter Traveller set off to one of the players would be just fine, or he might keep it for the range band space combat and the handy booklet of charts and tables.

As I've mentioned before, the D&D basic set, especially the Mentzer version, works pretty good. Holmes was playable enough to get us started.

Frank

Quote from: ffilz;1008120Which Traveller Starter Set? I'm assuming you mean Mongoose 2e...

Yes. It's got more content than the Core Rules - meaning it is a sort of deluxe version of the Core Rules, with an introductory campaign included.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;1008124Yes. It's got more content than the Core Rules - meaning it is a sort of deluxe version of the Core Rules, with an introductory campaign included.

OK, so that's really a different animal from what we are generally discussing in this thread. An interesting and useful idea, though I seem to recall some folks pointing out the cost of the set may make it unattractive.

I think that's the key, if you have a starter set, it really needs to be at a cost point that makes it a good choice for starting out, and then the structure has to be such that you don't mind shelling out for the starter and then buying the full up rules. Free of course is the best starter cost, then it can be whatever helps sell your game. The BECM(I) model is a good one too. The original Starter Traveller is interesting, it was about the same price as the full up rules, and is 90% of the game, I think what makes it work is that by being 90% of the game, some folks never need to buy up to the full set, while others will be happy to have a duplicate set of the rules.

Frank

Quote from: DavetheLost;1007377The FFG starter set for Edge of the Empire tipped me into that system. It helped that it provided good value with a set of custom dice, tokens for Force Points, characters, etc, and a full colour double sided poster-map, as well as rules, pregen characters and a starter adventure. For less than the hardcover core rules, which would need the dice anyway.

I agree with this. I bought all of the boxed sets for FFG Star Wars and enjoyed the heck out of them. Bought one of the hardbacks and hated it. This was a case where the simplicity of starter sets was a lot better than the "real thing" RPG. Also not a big fan of the Pathfinder RPG, but I love the simplified version of rules in the boxed set. More OSR than Pathfinder.

In general I like freebie PDF quickstarts because they give me a peek into the game. I know that they lack many of the bells-and-whistles of the full rules, but often I can get a feel for whether or not I like the designer's style of rules. Much better than buying a $50 rulebook and not liking the game.

Quote from: Voros;1007700'Dumbed down' seems a meaningless term when it comes to game rules. More extensive or complex rules are hardly more 'intelligent' are they?

I guess I should post to reflect what nearly half the polls reflects: if I'm interested in a game I download and check out the free quickstart before purchasing. Why wouldn't you actually?

The Red Box was my intro to D&D and most of my peers. Clearly the D&D intro set has an important role in introducing kids to RPGs in general.

I don't think I've used the term dumb'ed down but I did use the phrase "for dummies edition". By that I don't literally mean they are for stupid people, simply a gutted system with limited use. As a freebee to generate interest that is fine, kind of like offering one chapter from a novel to generate interest, but few would buy just one chapter to see if they like the book. As already mentioned Basic D&D was one of the more successful efforts and shows how an intro game should be done, and if done well it can become its own stand alone line.

Free  "quick start rules" being available helped me understand GURPS and BRP better, but I don't know that I wouldn't have bought them anyway. But the same for the new D&D doesn't even inspire me to download them for free, so I would have to be interested in the game already. Then again, I also tend to lack interest in games that require more than one volume before they are considered complete rules, unless all the volumes are packaged together in a box or other container a la Traveller or D&D way back when.

P.S. Starter Traveller has all you need to play Traveller, how is it incomplete?

Quote from: Dumarest;1008476P.S. Starter Traveller has all you need to play Traveller, how is it incomplete?

Apparently it isn't incomplete, but it isn't the quite original rules either. It substitutes simplified versions of the original rules in places. I guess more a case of Basic D&D vs AD&D. Not a bad thing unless you thought you were getting AD&D combined in one book. When I was 13 I felt cheated, today I would say it was potentially a good idea.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1008501Apparently it isn't incomplete, but it isn't the quite original rules either. It substitutes simplified versions of the original rules in places. I guess more a case of Basic D&D vs AD&D. Not a bad thing unless you thought you were getting AD&D combined in one book. When I was 13 I felt cheated, today I would say it was potentially a good idea.

I gotcha. One nice thing about it is that it has all the charts, tables, subsector hex grid, and character sheet you might need for your Traveller game in one easy booklet ("Charts and Tables").  I use it with the classic '77 Traveller boxed set.

If anyone ever sees a used copy, make sure it has the Charts and Tables booklet!

Quote from: Toadmaster;1008501Apparently it isn't incomplete, but it isn't the quite original rules either. It substitutes simplified versions of the original rules in places. I guess more a case of Basic D&D vs AD&D. Not a bad thing unless you thought you were getting AD&D combined in one book. When I was 13 I felt cheated, today I would say it was potentially a good idea.

The three big differences between Starter Traveller and the other version of Classic Traveller are:

1. functional but simpler range band space combat - a real difference
2. the section on drugs has been dropped
3. the section on experience has been dropped

None of these make Starter Traveller unplayable for a long term campaign and also are easy upgrades if someone shows up with 1977, 1981, or The Traveller Book.

Frank

Quote from: ffilz;1008543None of these make Starter Traveller unplayable for a long term campaign and also are easy upgrades if someone shows up with 1977, 1981, or The Traveller Book.

Frank

Or like me and shows up with all of those plus Starter! Traveller is probably my all-time favorite RPG...I have nearly every version. I suppose the comparison to Basic/Expert D&D isn't too far off.

Yes, the original classic-traveller starter set was very good.  Likewise, 3e GURPS Basic.

I consider the Aeon Trinity and Exalted 1e quickstarts better than the actual games.

As I've mentioned previously, I've run short arc campaigns (and many one-shots) just using the quickstarts.