Quote from: ffilz;1007564Yea, probably Starter Traveller, the differences between that and 1977, 1981, and The Traveller Book are well documented in my Traveller Section by Section Comparison:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jsH-EgKvaR0mdbtJMj_Xj7X3TcYyZTqQGf-Gwu58PX0/edit?usp=sharing

Note that as a truncated rule set, it is amazingly complete, and has a functional simplified ship combat system that is usable outside the realm of introductory gaming.

It may have been, and may have even been clearly marked as such. I just remember being very disappointed that it wasn't what I thought it was. 13-14 is not exactly the age of solid reasoning.

Traveller books must not have been super easy to get, as I bought plenty of games, and generally owned my own copies of games I played regularly but somehow I always relied on others Traveller books. I still don't own any LBB traveller stuff despite having a large collection of GDW games.

Quote from: ffilz;1007566I think the Basic/Expert D&D (later expanded with Companion and Master) is a good model. When you buy the subsequent modules, you aren't getting significant duplicate material.

Starter rules that give you most of what you need to play a character generated using the full rules could work well, especially if free. The GM buys the full rules, gives out the intro rules to the players, and then chargen is done in a game session with folks who have had a chance to read the rules.

Paying for a truncated rule set that is superseded by the full rules is a waste of money.

All of this said by someone who got started in RPGs when his best friend got Holmes Basic for his birthday in the fall of 1977, but past that weekend, we never used Basic D&D.

Frank

I'm not sure that exact model would work for games like GURPS or HERO at least at a basic level. I mean that is exactly how they work when you look at it as core rules, and then magic books, supers books etc.

I do like that "basic" D&D was its own thing though, not just a neutered AD&D. I think that makes it a far more viable product because it stands on its own, it isn't a throw away or a "for dummies" version. It may have started out that way but it became its own game line with on going support which made it both an introduction to AD&D and a stand alone game for people who didn't want the added complexity of AD&D.

That is something I think more complex games like HERO and GURPS could really use as an intro to the larger game, rather than just saying hey ignore 1/2 the rules in the books you bought if you want an easier game.

I don't tend to buy into to starter sets much. They are usually 'incomplete' and as such, I prefer just getting the rules for free online if I need to.

Having said that, I've just received my new Mongoose Traveller Starter box, which has all the Core rules reprinted into two books, an extra book for a starter campaign, maps, pregens and dice (and room to put more character sheets and dice in it(. It has more utility than just buying the Core Rules book alone, and consequently I prefer the format, although I appreciate the choice.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1007565As I recall those older boxed "basic" D&D sets were level based? So you could buy the first set to cover low levels, then another for the next range of levels etc? I mostly played AD&D / 2nd ed and only had a little exposure to the "basic" D&D rule sets. That actually seems a reasonable way to offer a less expensive intro without actually making the intro a "lesser" product, it is simply the first product needed. Probably limited in the kinds of games that would work for though class / level based games making it easier to sort the needed rules.
 

Yeah, it was actually pretty neat. You got just enough to play levels 1-3, 4-6, ?? and they went from Dungeon to Wilderness Exploration to Stronghold Management.
Thinking about it this way, I think the appeal was the limited scope of the rules, that added gameplay methods as you got the expansions.

I generally view quick start rules as advertising.  If it's something I'm interested in, I might check it out, the same way I would a design article or a promotional article.  But I don't want to play with quick start rules.

Now, the exception would be where the game is modular, and the so called "quick start" is a playable game in its own right.  But even then, I don't want a lot of boilerplate or retreads in the later modules.

Some other thoughts. Some quick starts I own that I can think of:

Basic D&D (Holmes, Moldvay, Mentzer). I have only ever played Holmes.

Basic Role Playing booklet (my first copy was in Call of Cthulhu, my current copy is from RQ2 boxed set).

Burning Wheel Revised Hub and Spokes, Burning Wheel Gold Hub and Spokes

Other than Holmes Basic D&D, I have actually used none of these in play. I have shared Burning Wheel Hub & Spokes with players (or at least pointed to where they could download it themselves), but it's actually an excerpt from the rule book, so free AND not a dumbed down version.

'Dumbed down' seems a meaningless term when it comes to game rules. More extensive or complex rules are hardly more 'intelligent' are they?

I guess I should post to reflect what nearly half the polls reflects: if I'm interested in a game I download and check out the free quickstart before purchasing. Why wouldn't you actually?

The Red Box was my intro to D&D and most of my peers. Clearly the D&D intro set has an important role in introducing kids to RPGs in general.

I agree that for me too it depends on the contents of the quick-start rules.

My first RPG game was Melee ($3.95 1980 dol, the first microgame for The Fantasy Trip, which was designed as a stand-alone arena combat game, and was very good (I would still play it for fun today), focused, and easy to learn (I could reproduce all the rules from memory today with probably 97% accuracy). It was a really effective way to get people to learn the core combat system and be able to play right away, and there were several programmed adventures which could be played with only it. So that was clearly good in many ways.

Man To Man, the first GURPS product, was very similar in that it was just the combat system, a very good game by itself, focused, and relatively easy to learn. I bought it as soon as I saw it on the shelf, never having heard of it, and discovered to my delight that it was essentially the redesign of TFT combat that we'd been working on ourselves after becoming unsatisfied with TFT after 7 years of heavy play, only finished and playtested. So that was also great. But it was also practically as complicated as GURPS rules ever got until GURPS Martial Arts and some magazine articles with advanced optional rules were published.

GURPS later released a GURPS Lite free rule set, which is more than just the combat system but has "Lite" versions of the rules, including the non-combat rules, and I guess is ok as an free intro overview, but it doesn't give you a fun tactical combat game like Melee and Man To Man did, so it seems a bit "lite" to me. If I weren't already a fan and read just that, I might think GURPS is fairly generic in way that might seem not that interesting, as what I like about GURPS is the very detailed tactical combat system.

I guess I have particular bias in this way, but what I'd want in an intro set of other rules would probably be something like Melee or Man to Man: a fairly complete version of mainly the combat system.

I don't like limited rule sets. I published free versions of StarCluster 2, 3, and now 4 which are *not* dumbed down. I also publish some free settings to use with them. Personally, I use StarCluster 4 Free as the base for any one off game I make, along with the SC4 tool boxes.

I think most starter-sets are too bare-bones to be of use.  One of the things I really pushed for with D&D 5e basic is that it be really usable, that you could play a whole game with it if that's what you wanted.

The Traveller Starter Set has everything from the Core Rule book reprinted, plus a short campaign, maps, pregens and dice.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;1008054The Traveller Starter Set has everything from the Core Rule book reprinted, plus a short campaign, maps, pregens and dice.

Which Traveller Starter Set? I'm assuming you mean Mongoose 2e...

The first Starter Traveller as an into to Classic Traveller was nice. It has a nice simplified space combat system, a nice booklet of charts and tables. The most significant bits it's missing are the drugs and experience sections, neither of which is necessary for play (the Traveller experience system not being a traditional XP system).

I agree with RPGPundit that many starter sets are missing too much, the Classic Traveller Starter Set is certainly a very playable set, and had a GM eventually got The Traveller Book or Deluxe Traveller, handing the Starter Traveller set off to one of the players would be just fine, or he might keep it for the range band space combat and the handy booklet of charts and tables.

As I've mentioned before, the D&D basic set, especially the Mentzer version, works pretty good. Holmes was playable enough to get us started.

Frank

Quote from: ffilz;1008120Which Traveller Starter Set? I'm assuming you mean Mongoose 2e...

Yes. It's got more content than the Core Rules - meaning it is a sort of deluxe version of the Core Rules, with an introductory campaign included.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;1008124Yes. It's got more content than the Core Rules - meaning it is a sort of deluxe version of the Core Rules, with an introductory campaign included.

OK, so that's really a different animal from what we are generally discussing in this thread. An interesting and useful idea, though I seem to recall some folks pointing out the cost of the set may make it unattractive.

I think that's the key, if you have a starter set, it really needs to be at a cost point that makes it a good choice for starting out, and then the structure has to be such that you don't mind shelling out for the starter and then buying the full up rules. Free of course is the best starter cost, then it can be whatever helps sell your game. The BECM(I) model is a good one too. The original Starter Traveller is interesting, it was about the same price as the full up rules, and is 90% of the game, I think what makes it work is that by being 90% of the game, some folks never need to buy up to the full set, while others will be happy to have a duplicate set of the rules.

Frank

Quote from: DavetheLost;1007377The FFG starter set for Edge of the Empire tipped me into that system. It helped that it provided good value with a set of custom dice, tokens for Force Points, characters, etc, and a full colour double sided poster-map, as well as rules, pregen characters and a starter adventure. For less than the hardcover core rules, which would need the dice anyway.

I agree with this. I bought all of the boxed sets for FFG Star Wars and enjoyed the heck out of them. Bought one of the hardbacks and hated it. This was a case where the simplicity of starter sets was a lot better than the "real thing" RPG. Also not a big fan of the Pathfinder RPG, but I love the simplified version of rules in the boxed set. More OSR than Pathfinder.

In general I like freebie PDF quickstarts because they give me a peek into the game. I know that they lack many of the bells-and-whistles of the full rules, but often I can get a feel for whether or not I like the designer's style of rules. Much better than buying a $50 rulebook and not liking the game.

Quote from: Voros;1007700'Dumbed down' seems a meaningless term when it comes to game rules. More extensive or complex rules are hardly more 'intelligent' are they?

I guess I should post to reflect what nearly half the polls reflects: if I'm interested in a game I download and check out the free quickstart before purchasing. Why wouldn't you actually?

The Red Box was my intro to D&D and most of my peers. Clearly the D&D intro set has an important role in introducing kids to RPGs in general.

I don't think I've used the term dumb'ed down but I did use the phrase "for dummies edition". By that I don't literally mean they are for stupid people, simply a gutted system with limited use. As a freebee to generate interest that is fine, kind of like offering one chapter from a novel to generate interest, but few would buy just one chapter to see if they like the book. As already mentioned Basic D&D was one of the more successful efforts and shows how an intro game should be done, and if done well it can become its own stand alone line.