This subject came up in another thread and I figured it might make for some interesting discussion by itself. This is not the age old discussion about wether GMs should fudge die rolls or not. This is about players doing it.

Have you encountered this often?
Why do you think players cheat?
How do you deal with it as a GM?

P.S. I hope I put this in the correct forum.

I've encountered it less so as the people I play with get older.

People cheat in RPG's for the same reasons they cheat in any other case.  They want to win.  RPG's are even more tempting for some people to cheat in because they are very strongly invested in their character.  You lose at chess, you lose at chess.  In an RPG' one cheated die roll could be the difference between life and death of a character so it's tempting to cheat.

Before it would totally depend on the situation.  If the cheating was isolated and perhaps it was a life/death thing we perhaps changed the situation.  If it's rampant we booted players out of games.

Quote from: HombreLoboDomesticado;481269Have you encountered this often?
Why do you think players cheat?
How do you deal with it as a GM?

P.S. I hope I put this in the correct forum.

I only encountered it once (but it isn't like I am on the look-out for it, so may have missed many instances of players cheating). One of the players altered his stats mid-game (which I discovered when I looked at his sheet after). No one got upset or anything. In fact I think we all had a good laugh.

Quote from: HombreLoboDomesticado;481269This subject came up in another thread and I figured it might make for some interesting discussion by itself. This is not the age old discussion about wether GMs should fudge die rolls or not. This is about players doing it.

Have you encountered this often?
Why do you think players cheat?
How do you deal with it as a GM?

P.S. I hope I put this in the correct forum.

I cheated once myself. I got so frustrated at rolling low all the time. My rolling was so bad even the DM fudged for me once. We both felt bad enough about doing it that it ended up never happening again.  It had never seemed to matter which die I used, I rolled low almost all the time. Very frustrating. Luckily, I don't seem to have the same trouble with digital dice-rollers. I went and bought Gamescience dice because of this, although I haven't yet had a chance to try them out. Of course, when I GMed this tendency suddenly seemed to become popular

Now that I'm older and wiser I know better than to cheat, the person it harms the most is me, not the other players. I do, however, understand why folks might be tempted sometimes. It stops being fun when you end up feeling useless because the dice rolls get consistently bad. I would try not to be too hard on someone, as long as they feel bad about it and end up giving up cheating... it is just a game after all.

Quote from: kryyst;481271If it's rampant we booted players out of games.

This was usually dependent on the DM.

In most of the groups I played with, we usually didn't kick out the chronic repeat offenders.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;481274No one got upset or anything. In fact I think we all had a good laugh.

This is what usually happened most of the time.

After awhile, the chronic repeat offenders became the laughing stock amongst the local gaming circles.  What was amusing was that quite a few of the chronic cheaters did not realise that everybody was laughing in their faces.  The ones who did catch on, either changed their behavior or just left the gaming group.

Quote from: Sigmund;481275... it is just a game after all.

Over the years I've met a lot of dysfunctional gamers, where rpg games were more than just a "game" to them.  It was as if rpg games was like a "religion" to them, or their life's reason for existence.  :pundit:

An attack on their in-game character, is literally like an attack on their ego (in real life)!

I had one player who used to cheat a lot, but I think it's because she had a really hard time learning the ruleset (and also wasn't really invested in learning it), so she'd just roll and say "I succeed."

I never confronted it directly because I didn't consider it a big deal, and eventually, she got a grasp on the rules and stopped doing it.

Quote from: ggroy;481284An attack on their in-game character, is literally like an attack on their ego (in real life)!

Yeah. One of my players is still like this from time to time.

Everyone rolls in the open where I play, so I haven't encountered it (or realized it was going on if it was).

I have definitely been in games where it seems like everyone is rolling 1's and 2's all night. And I have seen one guy become famous for rolling a lot of crits. He's lso famous for a 'double crit hall of fame'- one of his characters is a ranger and another is an avenger, so sometimes he rolls 2d20.. and I've seen more than a few double crits from this one specific guy. But the dice are standard chessex dice (I checked!). I'm convinced he's just very lucky.

DMs can play a part in this by making failure as interesting (or at least funny) just as success, so that even the failed roll is ok to make because something happens. In my experience, failed rolls only really get frustrating when they basically just negate your input/end your turn.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;481293Everyone rolls in the open where I play, so I haven't encountered it (or realized it was going on if it was).
.

This is how we do it. Everyone, including the GM, rolls out in the open. I find this works a lot better.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;481274(...)but it isn't like I am on the look-out for it, so may have missed many instances of players cheating(...)

For me it's mostly this. I guess I just find cheating in an RPG a bit silly and therefore don't feel it's worth the trouble checking on it. As a GM I'm fairly lenient on behalf of the PCs: I am not out to kill them and try to make failed rolls fun rather than frustrating.

I'm not sure what I'd do if I were to catch a chronic offender in the act several times in a row... I would probably tell him that he might as well not roll at all if he's that intent on succeeding all the time.

Quote from: HombreLoboDomesticado;481269Have you encountered this often?
Why do you think players cheat?
How do you deal with it as a GM?

I haven't encountered it that often. I can think of a few people that did it, or I thought did it, but it's never been a huge regular issue or anything.

I think people cheat in RPGs like they cheat in any game: out of frustration. They're tired to lose, or want to win right out the gate because the struggle to get there seems too hard or boring or annoying to them. It's the "I want it now" part of yourself in action.

Basically I point out when I run a game something like : "look, you guys want to cheat? That's fine by me. I'm not your dad, I'm not here to guard children. If you cheat, however, you are just robbing yourself of everything that makes the game an entertainment. Getting to play with what you have, think out of the box, overwhelm obstacles with your wits, interacting with the game world in a meaningful way. You won't be surprised, you'll always get what you want. How long will that be fun to you? What disastrous but awesome moment are you missing by changing your roll? It's your choice really. It's just kind of missing the point of the game if you do."

Quote from: Benoist;481303I think people cheat in RPGs like they cheat in any game: out of frustration. They're tired to lose, or want to win right out the gate because the struggle to get there seems to hard or boring or annoying to them. It's the "I want it now" part of yourself in action.

...

You won't be surprised, you'll always get what you want. How long will that be fun to you? What disastrous but awesome moment are you missing by changing your roll? It's your choice really. It's just kind of missing the point of the game if you do."

For some individuals they want to be in "god mode" constantly, irrespective of the game or genre.

Why exactly such individuals want to do this constantly, I really don't know.

I've had one or two players that cheat. I don't watch their dice.

When I think it is going on, I just use stronger and stronger bad guys until the group gets hammered.

Now days, a couple of my players watch the die rolls of the suspected cheaters so they don't run into any more 6th level guys disguised as 2nd level guys.

I once had to play several sessions as Dm with a "gamer wife" of one of our members.

My DM table was an island with couches all around it, and I trusted my gamer friends to be honest, which they were.

This chick, however...was terrible and blatant.  She'd roll the die, and when she saw it was a fail she'd immediately pick it back up - as if she meant to do so all the time.  Then roll it again.

I'd look at the gamer dude who's responsibility this was, and we'd lock gazes.  He'd know and I'd know she just straight up cheated.  She just didn't feel it was important enough to give a shit about.

She did it all the time!  I just let it go because I wasn't going to scold this bitch for my homeslice - that was his job.  It got so bad, she'd literally toss the D20 until she scored a hit/success.  Several tosses on each test.  Seriously.

I finally told her if she did that again there would be consequences.  She flat out did not believe me.  Cue the giant scorpions.

Gamer chicks, ha.  There are NONE.

I'm with Benoist on the subject.

Quote from: Blackhand;481313Gamer chicks, ha.  There are NONE.

By that logic, there wouldn't be any gamer guys either.