Quote from: Rincewind1;523728Blackhand had been pulling "I play Battle so I know shit" for quite a while

I'm not trying to pull anything.  I'm telling you how it is.  You're missing a lot of material.

Listening to your complaints, sounds like you want to play D&D.

All that crap you're talking (magic items, other enemies than chaos, blah blah blah) about has it's place, and you know what I'm talking about.

I just got a new Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book.

It's ok, it's just not Warhammer.

Quote from: Rincewind1;523728Blackhand had been pulling "I play Battle so I know shit" for quite a while

I'm not trying to pull anything.  I'm telling you how it is.  You're missing a lot of material.

Educational thread guys for a relative 40k noob like myself, seriously.

I like the way the Butcher described his WF games where the "medieval" is ramped up to 11. That sounds familiar: the Warhammer games we were playing when we were teens with 1e felt like that. It was really medieval bordering on renaissance, with some gonzo and humour and creep chaos shit going on in the backdrop. And you were usually the guy with the short end of the stick, trying to make it and grow to the next career. Lots of PC deaths in those days. It was not easy surviving Warhammer games, and it was cool.

I think 2e isn't a terrible game. I certainly understand the appeal of the streamlined mechanics and all that. But I also do see what Rincewind is trying to say in regards to the feel of it. I don't feel the same appeal in 2e at all in regards to the feel of the Old World as there was in 1e. There was a sense of "used universe" in a way, that was vaguely recognizable historically speaking and yet, completely off in the details. It's clear to me 2e lost something in translation. What exactly I can't tell. It feels... more fake. Like it's more American in vibe.

As for the 40K games... I got nothing against the grim nature of the setting, or anything of the sort, really. I like humour in games. I have no experience with the original Rogue Trader. I own Dark Heresy and Deathwatch, and can't really say why, but I find these games hard to get into. Like you should be into the whole 40K hobby before even trying to get into the RPGs. I've never played the wargame, so maybe that's why I'm not so excited about them. I played Space Hulk as a teen and loved the game, and that's what I want when think of a game with Space Marines. Kind of like playing Aliens all over again. And Deathwatch seems well, overly complicated to do the job properly. I have not given the game a fair shot yet, though.

@Benoist,  you may be right but it may be because I'm female.  But the 40k games are hard to get into I think.  I have all of them and really the only one that connects with me fully is Dark Heresy, I view Rogue Trader as Spelljammer all grimdark, Deathwatch I just don't get even if it's fun to read. It's probably because it's an all boys club for no reason that could be supported by a logical and sane viewpoint.   That's just me though.

Quote from: Benoist;523753I own Dark Heresy and Deathwatch, and can't really say why, but I find these games hard to get into. Like you should be into the whole 40K hobby before even trying to get into the RPGs. I've never played the wargame, so maybe that's why I'm not so excited about them.

This is what I've been saying for years.

Quote from: Marleycat;523758It's probably because it's an all boys club for no reason that could be supported by a logical and sane viewpoint.   That's just me though.

That is correct.  It's not just you.

Quote from: Rincewind1;523734To make things clear - it is my personal preference. I don't really see one edition as "morally" superior to the other. I had fun when playing 2e's vision, but I much prefer my own - based on 1e. I think I'd just throw it out there.

And as for the answer:

Because I feel like it shows the Old World by lens of big hyperbole. Everything got too "epic", and I mean both epic as in suddenly fire wizards have literally fire everywhere around them, as well as that everything that was already a hyperbole in 1e, is now even a bigger hyperbole.  1e felt very "down to earth" to me, both in terms of gaming content, as well as it's humour. In 1e, some peasants will be dirty, some will be clean, and some will bang entire village's wives on the side (honestly - village write - ups in 1e supplements are simply spectacular. See Lichemaster or Death's Dark Shadow. You feel bad when you start killing those characters as a GM). In 2e, all villagers are dirty, downtrodden, and probably hosting a Chaos shrine in the village's woods, because Chaos is everywhere, everywhere, everywhere, and behind every single plot.

To sum up my feelings on 1e and 2e, and perhaps understand them a bit - if you can, take 1e and 2e corebooks. Look at Sailor profession illustration in 1e, then at Sailor from 2e. The differences between the aesthetics of those two illustrations greatly show the difference between aesthetics of the mood of the two games - and my dislike for 2e.

PS. And magic items. At least in Poland, since the days of 1e really, but this got much stronger in 2e, there's this bizarre notion that Warhammer is GRIMDARK supreme - as in, there are NO MAGIC ITEMS AT ALL, for example.

To which I often ask : "How do you explain that the bloody Captain of the Empire is carrying 50 points worth of magical loot in an army list"? Which creates the "you will never be as cool as them, buckoo" syndrome, at least for me.

It's cool, Rince, it was an honest question. You seem to have plenty of familiarity and experience with WFRP, and I value your opinion.

Quote from: BenoistI think 2e isn't a terrible game. I certainly understand the appeal of the streamlined mechanics and all that. But I also do see what Rincewind is trying to say in regards to the feel of it. I don't feel the same appeal in 2e at all in regards to the feel of the Old World as there was in 1e. There was a sense of "used universe" in a way, that was vaguely recognizable historically speaking and yet, completely off in the details. It's clear to me 2e lost something in translation. What exactly I can't tell. It feels... more fake. Like it's more American in vibe.

It's beyond argüing, I think, that both Warhammer worlds (Fantasy and 40K), like almost every other successful RPG setting out there (Forgotten Realms springs to mind, as does Glorantha) suffers from the inevitable canon bloat ("IP building" in suit-speak), which may lead to the "used universe" vibe that you mention. I put forth the hypothesis that flashy miniatures will outsell non-flashy miniatures most of the time, hence the world becoming flashier, more exaggerated, with dwarves swinging axes three times their size and stuff.

Regarding my own tastes for a somewhat exaggerated presentation (though certainly not as exaggerated as Rince's or Blackhand's perception of 2e), it may be that, having discovered RPGs at the height of the AD&D 2e era, I embrace this idea as an alternative to the bland, sanitized, Bowdlerized fantasy that so often prevailed at my gaming table back in the day, and which to this day informs my group's idea of "Medieval fantasy". When I was running IH, which I billed as a low-magic, low-fantasy game, I remember everybody commenting favorably on my portrayal of simple stuff like people with dirt under their fingernails or pox-scarred pockmarks on their faces, the stench of big cities, veterans in battle-battered armor whose swords have been worn thin by repeated sharpening, and so forth. Elementary stuff, really, but this was new imagery for my gaming group, as recently as 2008.

Quote from: BenoistAs for the 40K games... I got nothing against the grim nature of the setting, or anything of the sort, really. I like humour in games. I have no experience with the original Rogue Trader. I own Dark Heresy and Deathwatch, and can't really say why, but I find these games hard to get into. Like you should be into the whole 40K hobby before even trying to get into the RPGs. I've never played the wargame, so maybe that's why I'm not so excited about them. I played Space Hulk as a teen and loved the game, and that's what I want when think of a game with Space Marines. Kind of like playing Aliens all over again. And Deathwatch seems well, overly complicated to do the job properly. I have not given the game a fair shot yet, though.

I've been playing an irregular Rogue Trader game, and it's of course heavily GM-dependent (mine is a good one, if prone to railroading at times), but we've been having fun. The trick, I suppose, is to make the stakes suitably epic. Eldar and Orks won't be impressed by a Warrant of Trade. A planet with billions of inhabitants, and an army that numbers into the hundreds of thousands (if not millions) will not be impressed by your ship's 20,000 troop complement. And so on.

I don't think I'd have a lot of difficulty with Dark Heresy. Deathwatch might be tricky since it's so focused on milSF, and I don't see how one could break from formulaic mission-based slugfests. Not that those aren't fun, but I'm not sure I'd be happy running a regular, long-term campaign solely on those. Also my players react badly to hierarchy, which is why I killed off the Day After Ragnarok SIS campaign.

Quote from: The Butcher;523667I generally agree with Ladybird. Take the published stuff and do whatever you want with it. My take on WFRP is that it works best as a fantastic caricature of late Medieval and early Modern history: there's toothless peasants carting manure, capricious noblemen executing people and claiming jus primae noctis, wily burghers out for coin, religious strife and heresy, the bloody flux ravaging towns and camps, elector counts choosing an ineffectual dolt for their Emperor, barber-surgeons sawing limbs and charlatans seling snake oil, powerful but unreliable black powder guns, chivalrous but insufferable douchebag Frenchmen stand-ins, and everything seems to be building up towards an impeding Apocalypse that looks like a mash-up between Michael Moorcock's Stormbringer and the Biblical Revelations of John directed by Terry Gilliam. My group refers to D&D as "Medieval fantasy" and running WFRP will be all about putting cranking the "Medieval" up to 11, complete with every inaccurate but fun stereotype about the Middle Ages ever.

Warhammer: Where life is nasty, brutish and short, and most of the time, so are the PCs.

JG

Quote from: Benoist;523753As for the 40K games... I got nothing against the grim nature of the setting, or anything of the sort, really. I like humour in games. I have no experience with the original Rogue Trader. I own Dark Heresy and Deathwatch, and can't really say why, but I find these games hard to get into. Like you should be into the whole 40K hobby before even trying to get into the RPGs. I've never played the wargame, so maybe that's why I'm not so excited about them. I played Space Hulk as a teen and loved the game, and that's what I want when think of a game with Space Marines. Kind of like playing Aliens all over again. And Deathwatch seems well, overly complicated to do the job properly. I have not given the game a fair shot yet, though.

You don't have to be into the whole hobby - no painting miniatures is required at all - but if the setting doesn't grab you, neither will the rpg's.

Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

I really don't understand this thread at all.

Me either.  Thank God 40k is so bullshit that I just do my own rendition while laughing at anybody with the balls to tell me I'm doing it wrong. It's like saying you're doing Forgotten Realms wrong, it doesn't compute.

Quote from: Marleycat;523758@Benoist,  you may be right but it may be because I'm female.  But the 40k games are hard to get into I think.  I have all of them and really the only one that connects with me fully is Dark Heresy, I view Rogue Trader as Spelljammer all grimdark, Deathwatch I just don't get even if it's fun to read. It's probably because it's an all boys club for no reason that could be supported by a logical and sane viewpoint.   That's just me though.

All girls club? Bollocks (no offence!) I know quite a few women that play WFB or W40k (wargame). I admit that quite a few of them are husbands of players, but most of them seems to be genuinely interested (and kicked my ass a few times).

Quote from: The Butcher;523768It's beyond argüing, I think, that both Warhammer worlds (Fantasy and 40K), like almost every other successful RPG setting out there (Forgotten Realms springs to mind, as does Glorantha) suffers from the inevitable canon bloat ("IP building" in suit-speak), which may lead to the "used universe" vibe that you mention. I put forth the hypothesis that flashy miniatures will outsell non-flashy miniatures most of the time, hence the world becoming flashier, more exaggerated, with dwarves swinging axes three times their size and stuff.

That is part of core of the problem, for me at least.

QuoteRegarding my own tastes for a somewhat exaggerated presentation (though certainly not as exaggerated as Rince's or Blackhand's perception of 2e), it may be that, having discovered RPGs at the height of the AD&D 2e era, I embrace this idea as an alternative to the bland, sanitized, Bowdlerized fantasy that so often prevailed at my gaming table back in the day, and which to this day informs my group's idea of "Medieval fantasy". When I was running IH, which I billed as a low-magic, low-fantasy game, I remember everybody commenting favorably on my portrayal of simple stuff like people with dirt under their fingernails or pox-scarred pockmarks on their faces, the stench of big cities, veterans in battle-battered armor whose swords have been worn thin by repeated sharpening, and so forth. Elementary stuff, really, but this was new imagery for my gaming group, as recently as 2008.

Sounds cool and not unlike my own Warhammer . I just like to have some clear peasants next to dirty ones . Pastiche is cool, but 2e moved too far into the realms of exaggeration. As I have said - one needs to but look at the illustrations to see a certain shift in the aesthetics. I see Warhammer as fantasy with a strong wink to medieval, rather then outright caricature.

I'll admit that one thing 2e did better, were armour & gunpowder weaponry getting a substantial improvement - although it was still a mediocre at best representation of both, under WFRP's mechanic. So I shifted back to 1e and used my buddy's houserules ever after.

Quote from: Benoist;523753. It's clear to me 2e lost something in translation. What exactly I can't tell. It feels... more fake. Like it's more American in vibe.

I think grasping for a stronger appeal to the American (U.S.) market might be part of why they made that shift. It's like everything keeps edging closer to pro-wrestling. Even the miniatures GW puts out... used to be a lot weedier with lots of character, now they all look like bloated steroid freaks... snarling madmen. GW's female sculpts (there are a few) look like budget-op transexuals.
Not like their games weren't already popular here... but more is always better and a hot beef injection draws in the pubescent boys... though they might freak if they were to realize they're playing with figures that belong in a Tom Of Finland drawing.

EDIT: Actually, looking at that drawing in Pundit's OP, maybe 40K was ALWAYS based on pro-wrestling.

Quote from: Simlasa;523803Not like their games weren't already popular here... but more is always better and a hot beef injection draws in the pubescent boys... though they might freak if they were to realize they're playing with figures that belong in a Tom Of Finland drawing.

Emperor Protects...

But not against STDs.

Remember to wear a condom.


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Quote from: Simlasa;523803Tom Of Finland

Never heard about him, so I Googled the name.

I hate you.

Quote from: The Butcher;523814Never heard about him, so I Googled the name.

I hate you.

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far(...)