Ken Hite has officially gone off the deep end. I mean, I had some hope, despite both writers' propensity for showboating and acting like spoilt primmadonnas, that Hite and Laws' new take on Call of Cthulhu, the one that's being designed with the "GUMSHOE" system, would have something worth reading at least.
Now I'm fairly sure that's not going to be the case.
People's Exhibit A: on his blog, Ken Hite calls Don't Rest Your Head "Second Generation Indie gaming (that) has fully internalized the post-Ron, post-Vincent indie design aesthetic in a way that old fogies like myself haven't."
People's Exhibit B: Hite is working on something called Adventures Into Darkness, an RPG book that's a "Golden Age superhero sourcebook for an alternate history where H.P. Lovecraft survived his cancer and became a comic-book writer".
I mean, first, what the shit is this guy on??
Second, if you have this kind of woolly-headed admiration for the utter crapulence that is indie design's "pretentious gimmicky weirdness for its own sake" method, how can what you produce end up being in any way better, or even not worse, than a truly classic game like CoC?
Of course, all the intellectualoids and would-be artistes around will hail it as the best thing since slice bread and forever use it to "suggest" gamers play it instead of CoC, or D&D for that matter, on the officially stupid Swine Forums. Of that I am sure, since Hite has intellectually prostituted himself, shit, degraded himself in order to be allowed into the cool kids club. This is sort of the equivalent of Graham Nash putting out a Rap album in a desperate and utterly misguided attempt to still be relevant.
RPGPundit
I've been a fan of Hite's for many years and think he's a great choice. I would guess that he's run more games of CoC at cons and in his home game than any other professional writer.
That alone makes me confident he'll do a great take on CoC.
I mean, it's always possible he lets his creative impulse get the better of him, but he's a real authority (imo) on running horror games in general and CoC in particular, so I feel like they're in good hands.
Chuck
Don't Rest Your Head: teh suxxorz. To the point where that spelling was actually necessary.
As for Lovecraftian Superheroes, it's called Hellboy.
Quote from: RPGPunditPeople's Exhibit B: Hite is working on something called Adventures Into Darkness, an RPG book that's a "Golden Age superhero sourcebook for an alternate history where H.P. Lovecraft survived his cancer and became a comic-book writer".
I have to admit, I think this sounds pretty cool.
Quote from: beejazzAs for Lovecraftian Superheroes, it's called Hellboy.
...if, admittedly, a bit familiar.
Quote from: laffingboyI have to admit, I think this sounds pretty cool.
Same here. If it can be pulled off, it'd definitely be interesting.
Rumors from the front is the "new wild spin" of Gumshoe's system is not really "new wild, or even spun"--appearently in regarding following a mystery if you roll success you get a clue, rather than say, I don't know what--rolling successes and not succeeding and stalling out the mystery? I can't think of a game I've run but one where it stalled out like that (and part of that was one player through a fit and discounting other players input that stalled--not the mystery.)
I am so sick of Cthulhu. If I never hear one more Lovecraft reference it will be too soon.
Quote from: droogI am so sick of Cthulhu...
You may be sick of Cthulhu. But Cthulhu is not sick of
you ...
:greatcthulhu:
Quote from: RPGPundit... stuff ...
Y'know, I'm not sure why any of this stuff constitutes a reason not to at least check out the game. (That is, if you're interested in another take on Cthulhu.)
:confused:
Having read Nightmares of Mine several years ago, I'm 100% convinced that Ken Hite is better qualified to write a Cthulhu RPG than any other game designer currently working in the hobby industry. I'm not so sure about Robin Laws, however.
Quote from: jdrakehHaving read Nightmares of Mine several years ago, I'm 100% convinced that Ken Hite is better qualified to write a Cthulhu RPG than any other game designer currently working in the hobby industry. I'm not so sure about Robin Laws, however.
Oh right, I forgot that Hite wrote that. That book fucking
rocks. :win:
Quote from: AkrasiaYou may be sick of Cthulhu. But Cthulhu is not sick of you ...
:greatcthulhu:
"Bah!" I say. "Humbug to Cthulhu!"
I predict a mess to rival Bruce Baugh's Gamma World.
Hite, Laws and Cthuhlu :
:hmm:
:ponder:
:win:
Regards,
David R
Quote from: jdrakehHaving read Nightmares of Mine several years ago, I'm 100% convinced that Ken Hite is better qualified to write a Cthulhu RPG than any other game designer currently working in the hobby industry. I'm not so sure about Robin Laws, however.
He also wrote GURPs horror, an excellent resource for horror gaming and especially horror GMing imo.
Not to mention that he has been PAID to run CoC, a distinction Im guessing not many game designers share ;)
Chuck
Like D&D, Cthulhu is so 80s for me. Been there. Done that. Next!
Quote from: pigames.netLike D&D, Cthulhu is so 80s for me. Been there. Done that. Next!
Yeah, and Mozart is so 18th century...
What a sad and shallow perspective on the hobby.
So... fucking... sweet...
I wants it bad!
I didn't realize Don't Rest Your Head was a Forge game though. I mean, it certainly has some traights, but I thought it wasn't developed there...
Still one of the best games ever, just wish the premise was a little more... sellable ("You're a crazy insomniac!" really only appeals to certain types of people, luckily I know a couple).
I've liked everything Hite's ever done, and this will rock too - hell, I'm looking forward to a copy of WILD TALENTS eventually, since he did the world-design chapter for supers in that one.
I think the Pundit's not getting much agreement on this one...
In fact, no, DRYH isn't a Forge game, and I don't get the impression that Fred Hicks is very into Forge theory.
Quote from: Elliot WilenIn fact, no, DRYH isn't a Forge game, and I don't get the impression that Fred Hicks is very into Forge theory.
Yeah, I was going to say. . .
I think that Fate, Spirit of the Century, et. al being touted as Forge games by Forge contributors is a simply another case of the same "taking credit for other people's work" that was going on when Clinton Nixon claimed (on the Big Purple forum) that the Forge was a primary impetus behind GURPS 4e, Hero 5e, Exalted, and D&D 3.5 :rolleyes:
Fate (nor FUDGE) are Forge games. And neither are Don't Rest Your Head or Spirit of the Century. This hasn't kept certain Forge affiliates for taking credit for such games or attempting to associate themselves with such games after the fact -- but if you Clinton try to attribute Forge theory as the drving force behind GURPS 4e, this wouldn't come as a surprise.
That doesn't seem fair, either. I see just as much if not more labelling of Fate et. al. (as well as, recently, Dead of Night) as Forge-ish coming from people who want to push them away into the Forge camp.
Fate is a generic game, that alone makes it non-Forger. They like games which focus on a very small part of the human experience, whether possible or impossible human experience.
That the people involved in a game's design sometimes frequent the Forge does not make it a Forge game, anymore than, say, Mike Mearls going to ENWorld makes D&D "an ENWorld game" or S John Ross posting on rpg.net makes Risus "an rpg.net game."
What Hite would make of Cthulhu, I have no idea. It's usually worth waiting and seeing. It's not like he's, say, Byron Hall (authour of FATAL).
Quote from: JimBobOzIt's not like he's, say, Byron Hall (authour of FATAL).
No, but I gotta say. . . I would give my left nut to hear a well-respected designer say that "Byron Hall" was merely a pen name that they used :D
Hite has lost his touch several years ago. he´s totally a nineties person, and doesn´t get his reviews straight.
Could be a strength for redoing a retro thing like CoC, though.
I´m still anxious to see it happen.
Quote from: Elliot WilenI see just as much if not more labelling of Fate et. al. (as well as, recently, Dead of Night) as Forge-ish coming from people who want to push them away into the Forge camp.
Yeah, but since Ken Hite is a well known Forge supporter, I doubt that this was the motive behind
his comment ;)
For the record, I don't take issue with the Forge as a whole, so much as I do with the actions and words of certain individuals affiliated with it (some of whom I think are almost single-handedly responsible for the place getting a bad rap).
That said, I do
hate the obfuscatory circular logic inherent in much of the theory discusssion there. The provisional glossary is very telling, in that many entries offer no actual definition but, rather, refer the reader to a subsequent entry. . .
And that entry also offers no defnition but, rather, refers the reader to a subsequent entry. . .
That also offers no definition. . .
There are (or were) some
very amusing logic loops tucked away in there. Many of the terms in the glossary are (or, again, were) completely without defined meaning. It (i.e., the provisional glossary) largely looks like something cribbed from The L. Ron Hubbard Writer's Bible ;)
There's nothing scary about Cthulhu and his mythos anymore.
QuoteOkay, okay -- everyone can stand down now. I've finally gotten an evening to myself to write a new "Out of the Box" column. Big pickup notice -- Don't Rest Your Head makes the CoC Sanity death spiral look like a handful of baby aspirin. Every decision you make changes the character -- this is Second Generation Indie Gaming, as you can tell that drivingblind has fully internalized the post-Ron, post-Vincent indie design aesthetic in a way that old fogies like myself haven't.
This sounds like bad marketing fluff.
Prepare for the
SeCoNd generation of Indie Gaming
eXtreme!Yug.
It doesn't mean anything. Post-Ron indie design aesthetic...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v198/Melan/rolleyesbarf13.gif)
Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerThere's nothing scary about Cthulhu and his mythos anymore.
He has become a cutesy pop culture icon along with Dracula and Frankenstein; you can buy his effigies as small plushy dolls and slippers*.
However, there are still possibilities in Lovecraftian horror: the ever-building hysteria, the crushing insignificance of humanity and all these can be a source of a good campaign. But that takes effort beyond "here is a shoggoth and there is an eldritch tome, and that's Uncle Jeb with tentacles". The recent Black&White fan movie, for example, mostly got the tone right, even if they couldn't make Great Cthulhu scary either.
Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerThere's nothing scary about Cthulhu and his mythos anymore.
...and that's the problem. Horror has moved on. We've learnt to cope with existential horror, externalised our nightmares, stuck them on the silver screen and given them so many sequals that they've become banal
It's other people that scare us now (heck my Bible study group gives me SAN loss sometimes)
That said, the stuff that's been leaked/posted about this does look very interesting. How can anyone resist a Call of Cuthulu tarot deck? (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=15159)
Human beings are, without a doubt, among the scariest shit there is.
But in large part our failure to connect to the kind of "cosmic horror" that Cthulhu represents is because this culture has shut itself in a box, philosophically. The average person in the western world doesn't just fail to ask "Big" questions (about the reasons for our existence) anymore, they don't even realize such a question exists in any meaningful sense. They are so distracted by what the Buddha might have called Maya, by comforts, and with the convenience that modern society has in covering up the very real truth that sooner or later every one of us will cease to live, that they really just can't connect to something like the Cthulhu mythos as anything other than "godzilla with tentacles", because they can no longer understand the symbolism that the mythos was meant to convey, and it was the symbolism that was really and truly horrifying. It was existential horror.
And of course, the really scary part is that we are "vaccinated" against this kind of horror in the way we are in our society because after the utter collapse of our ethical makeup in WWII, most of us would be completely incapable of putting up any kind of defense against this horror: something we truly hold as a real conviction, or at least a belief system.
You see, in the past, the average person would cling to their belief systems, dogmas that would see them through. And certain people, ones that were too educated for dogmas, had convictions instead, the sorts of "self-evident truths" that the Founding Fathers of the United States had.
But now most people don't have any convictions anymore, and don't REALLY believe in anything anymore, even if they claim they do. Moral relativism and deconstructionism have destroyed that. So our entire society now not only has turned its back on asking the big questions, but it absolutely DEPENDS on no one doing so, for its own survival. That's an end-stage society, one that is on the brink of collapse, because it no longer has any kind of a raison d'etre either.
Zarathustra was right, and Nietzsche was the greatest prophet of our age. One hundred years later, we live surrounded by the "ultimate man".
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit... But now most people don't have any convictions anymore, and don't REALLY believe in anything anymore, even if they claim they do. Moral relativism and deconstructionism have destroyed that. So our entire society now not only has turned its back on asking the big questions, but it absolutely DEPENDS on no one doing so, for its own survival. That's an end-stage society, one that is on the brink of collapse, because it no longer has any kind of a raison d'etre either.
Zarathustra was right, and Nietzsche was the greatest prophet of our age. One hundred years later, we live surrounded by the "ultimate man".
RPGPundit
From dissing the upcoming Cthulhu game to an 'Allan Bloom' style analysis of the shallowness of early 21st century civilisation...
Quite the leap, Pundit. And yet ... not entirely implausible. :pundit:
(Any post that attacks moral relativism and/or deconstruction will always get some sympathy points from me. :cool: )
Pundit, I know Ken Hite. Ken Hite is a friend of mine. Ken Hite does high weirdness better than most people do ordinary weirdness. :)
Seriously, you ever get the chance give GURPS Cabal a read. Makes world spanning conspiracies sound plausible.
Can't I just be bored with Cthulhu?
Quote from: droogCan't I just be bored with Cthulhu?
Thank you.
Quote from: droogCan't I just be bored with Cthulhu?
Stop this needless attack on
Cthuhlu :mad:
Obviously you and most of the folks around here have not played it as it was meant to be played :snooty:
How is it supposed to be played? Well, you should base all you campaigns on Stuart Gordon's
Re -Animator*...:killingme:
*Giving head never had a more literal metaphor :grumpy:
Regards,
David R
Quote from: droogCan't I just be bored with Cthulhu?
Ummm ... yeah. You can be that.
But if you're so bored with Cthulhu, why bother reading or posting in threads about Cthulhu?
:confused:
Quote from: AkrasiaBut if you're so bored with Cthulhu, why bother reading or posting in threads about Cthulhu?
:confused:
Something to do? I'm just having my morning coffee.
Quote from: RPGPundit...in large part our failure to connect to the kind of "cosmic horror" that Cthulhu represents is because this culture has shut itself in a box, philosophically. The average person in the western world doesn't just fail to ask "Big" questions (about the reasons for our existence) anymore, they don't even realize such a question exists in any meaningful sense... Cthulhu mythos ... was existential horror.
And of course, the really scary part is that we are "vaccinated" against this kind of horror in the way we are in our society because after the utter collapse of our ethical makeup in WWII, most of us would be completely incapable of putting up any kind of defense against this horror...
Taking out the doom-saying, and implications of yearning for a past Golden Age, this reminds me that a gamer friend of mine, Ian, is planning on doing a post-apocalyptic game, using
Call of Cthulhu rules. The apocalypse will be some kind of combination of environmental and economic, a collapse over a few years rather than overnight. The focus of the game will be on rebuilding.
For this reason, he's using CoC rules, and in place of "
Sanity" is going to have what he first called "
Will to Live." I asked him about that, and he said that Will would be knocked down by things like a despot taking over your town, crops being stolen by raiders, or the character killing someone "just because he looked dangerous." It'd be improved by things like raising a barn, the birth of a calf or lamb, organising a town council where everyone could have their say, saving the life of a stranger, and so on. I said that his "Will to Live" didn't sound exactly right - for example, plenty of players would argue that whacking someone threatening-looking, even if they were actually harmless, shows a strong will to live. He seemed to be talking more about human decency and community, so perhaps "
Humanity" was a better name for it - setting aside the nonsense "Humanity" we had in a certain White Wolf game. Not the perfect name, still, but closer.
At first I thought this was just him using the system he was most familiar and happy with - running horror games is a strength of his as a GM. But know that I read RPGPundit's little piece, I think perhaps Ian's actually hit on the essence of Lovecraft's stories. He was just using the Cthulhu mythos to make it all more clear, but that fear, that existential dread of horror and the unknown, of what science and humanity may bring to themselves, can be had without anything supernatural. I don't think I could bring it out as a GM, I've never been good at horror (except for one particular adventure I've run nine or ten times), but I'll be interested to see how he does it.
Quote from: droogSomething to do? I'm just having my morning coffee.
You slept in till noon, too, eh? I've haven't slept in this long since I was a uni student! :D
Quote from: YamoI predict a mess to rival Bruce Baugh's Gamma World.
Quote from: SettembriniHite has lost his touch several years ago. he´s totally a nineties person, and doesn´t get his reviews straight.
Quote from: Melan{Cthulhu} has become a cutesy pop culture icon along with Dracula and Frankenstein; you can buy his effigies as small plushy dolls and slippers*. However, there are still possibilities in Lovecraftian horror
Taken in aggregate, these three quotes summarize my opinion on this matter.
I agree that our culture is pretty much out of touch with HPL's idea of horror.
These days when we want to be scared, we dream up torture houses and armies of the walking dead. Horror is very much a thing of the flesh in the 21st century.
An Orthodox priest of my acquaintence came up with the following line which might be appropriate for this discussion:
"If you don't feel a sense of vertigo when you say the word 'God' you have not named Him."
Pundit's right - we've lost our sense of awe - one part joy, one part horror
Quote from: Hastur T. FannonAn Orthodox priest of my acquaintence came up with the following line which might be appropriate for this discussion:
"If you don't feel a sense of vertigo when you say the word 'God' you have not named Him."
Pundit's right - we've lost our sense of awe - one part joy, one part horror
That is a really cool phrase indeed, and sums things up very nicely imho.
Why does CoC need a new edition anyway? Pretty much every version rocks.
Like others have said, I think CoC is past its RPG prime and a new version isn't going to change that.
Necromancy at it's best!
Umm, the way I'm reading it is more like a genre shift to all investigation, all the time using GUMSHOE.
Isn't there a game already using that system? Esoterrorists, IIRC?
Yeah, I'm not sure it's out yet. But here is a 2-page PDF that got posted back in November. Parts of the thrust of their direction rings true, parts give me a bit of the eebie-jeebies (and not in a good way). *shrug*
http://simonjrogers.livejournal.com/15156.html
the one thing that irks me about Esoterrorists and the GUMSHOE system is that it presupposes that I've had problems with CoC characters being stonewalled by failed investigative rolls, and the game just somehow just stops.
Point of fact is, that has never happened to me.
Sounds more like piss-poor adventure design that makes the entire progress of a scenario hinge around one clue.
I think i was more excited about this news 'til I got Esoterrorists. The big-purple review (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12716.phtml) sums it up nicely, i think.
Hrmm: According to that review the core of the bad is a fuxxored combat/healing system and "I feel like I got a preview of some later product". Substandard, nigh uncompleted, production is always a cockblock. :( Also it mentions a uninspired setting, which doesn't necessarily translate over since I assume the setting will be a redo.
On the otherhand "The investigation system I like quite a bit." It'll be too bad if it is buried in crap.
Quote from: blakkieHrmm: According to that review the core of the bad is a fuxxored combat/healing system and "I feel like I got a preview of some later product". Substandard, nigh uncompleted, production is always a cockblock. :( Also it mentions a uninspired setting, which doesn't necessarily translate over since I assume the setting will be a redo.
On the otherhand "The investigation system I like quite a bit." It'll be too bad if it is buried in crap.
I think it has potential, I'm not sure Esoterrorists entirely realised it. I'm selling my copy but plan to buy the CoC version when it comes out.
Well, the Investigative system is, essentially, "if you have the Ability (i.e; Forensics), then you'll find the clue (i.e; a spent shell casing with the elder sign engraved on it that fell into a crack in the floor) and not have to roll any dice or spend any Ability Pool points."
If the player opts to spend points then they can find additional information. (read: fluff, cause it won't merit anything more than the original clue.)
So, if automatic success is your cup o', then it's an awesome Investigative System. If not...not so much. I'm not sure if the system left me with the blah feeling, or the setting. (or lack thereof) The Combat system is basically roll an 8 on 1d6 + Ability Pool points.
Actually, the book just made me pine for the Delta Green second printing even more... :(
Quote from: kregmosierWell, the Investigative system is, essentially, "if you have the Ability (i.e; Forensics), then you'll find the clue (i.e; a spent shell casing with the elder sign engraved on it that fell into a crack in the floor) and not have to roll any dice or spend any Ability Pool points."
If the player opts to spend points then they can find additional information. (read: fluff, cause it won't merit anything more than the original clue.)
So, if automatic success is your cup o', then it's an awesome Investigative System. If not...not so much. I'm not sure if the system left me with the blah feeling, or the setting. (or lack thereof) The Combat system is basically roll an 8 on 1d6 + Ability Pool points.
Actually, the book just made me pine for the Delta Green second printing even more... :(
See, this is the part I get confused about. A bunch of people over at the BP seem to be praising the system as being so innovative, but I don't get what is so innovative about it.
I've never read it or anything, just saw the review. So I have a bunch of questions that may seem stupid:
The whole thing doesn't make sense to me - what's the point of even having different ability levels? Wouldn't the best thing to do be to put a score of 1 in every ability? Why not just run one of those "How to Host a Mystery" games instead?
Or, couldn't I just use the current CoC rules and just not have PCs roll when clues are involved, and instead just give them the clues? Haven't a lot of GMs taken this approach for years anyways?
Personally, I've had some of my best times when the PCs miss the clues. It can be hilarious fun if you're not running a 100% serious game. But I'm not opposed to the concept of getting all the clues - I just don't see what it is that this game in particular gets you.
Quote from: blakkieHrmm: According to that review the core of the bad is a fuxxored combat/healing system and "I feel like I got a preview of some later product". Substandard, nigh uncompleted, production is always a cockblock. :( Also it mentions a uninspired setting, which doesn't necessarily translate over since I assume the setting will be a redo.
On the otherhand "The investigation system I like quite a bit." It'll be too bad if it is buried in crap.
I played a demo of it at Dragonmeet in London last December where the book was also on sale. I suspect that the book (which I didn't pick up) does suffer a bit becasue it essentially IS a preview of the GUMSHOE system with an x-files-ish setting slapped on.
As to the system itself, I was unconvinced. I know it's a game about investigation but when you have a HUGE list of various different investigative skills and a tiny list of 'other stuff' it seems out of whack. Not only that but you automatically suceed on the investigative stuff but must spend what is an extremely limited pool of points (or was in the demo anyway) to even have a chance of succeeding at anything else. I got the impression that I would very quickly be unable to accomplish much of anything bar finding clues of various stripes.
Of course that was just a demo so take it with a pinch of salt. It didn't sell me on the system though.
Quote from: jgants-SNIP- Why not just run one of those "How to Host a Mystery" games instead?
Or, couldn't I just use the current CoC rules and just not have PCs roll when clues are involved, and instead just give them the clues? Haven't a lot of GMs taken this approach for years anyways?
-SNIP- But I'm not opposed to the concept of getting all the clues - I just don't see what it is that this game in particular gets you.
Exactly, Yes, and I Agree.
I like how they make getting the clues automatic, but now you can fail to do everything ELSE. ;)
So why on earth do they need to re-do Cthulhu, especially with these guys? Its perfectly fine as it is and doesn't need and entirely new syste,. The percentile one that has been used from the very start works just fine for almost everyone who has ever played it. Why change it at all?
Thanks
Frank
Quote from: FranklinSo why on earth do they need to re-do Cthulhu, especially with these guys? Its perfectly fine as it is and doesn't need and entirely new syste,. The percentile one that has been used from the very start works just fine for almost everyone who has ever played it. Why change it at all?
Thanks
Frank
Yes, change and new things are badwrongfun! :rolleyes:
Much as I love CoC (and Delta Green) I have to admit that the system feels pretty dated these days and, whilst it does the job, it isn't exactly the most stunning system ever created.
Not that I necessarily think that GUMSHOE is the answer (and as I say the demo didn't really sell the system to me particularly) but, well, I don't think you'll find many people better qualified to do a new Cthulhu version than Ken Hite and I certainly don't think it needs dismissing until I've had a chance to check it out.
Quote from: FranklinSo why on earth do they need to re-do Cthulhu, especially with these guys? Its perfectly fine as it is and doesn't need and entirely new syste,. The percentile one that has been used from the very start works just fine for almost everyone who has ever played it. Why change it at all?
They're not "changing it". Chaosium's BRP-CoC will still be there. Just like it was still there when WotC released D20-CoC. So the GUMSHOE version will be just another treatment on CoC by another company and other authors.
There's a variety of reasons for why this could work for Pelgrane and sell copies.
Unfortunately, it looks like it will be the third system for CoC that doesn't appeal to me in any way.
Quote from: Geoff HallYes, change and new things are badwrongfun! :rolleyes:
Much as I love CoC (and Delta Green) I have to admit that the system feels pretty dated these days and, whilst it does the job, it isn't exactly the most stunning system ever created.
Fuck the extremely lame and always useless "badwrongfun" card!
He thinks the game is great as is, you think it's dated and not really a stunning system. That's it.
You can't cry "badwrongfun" every time someone says he doesn't like a fucking game. And you
certainly can't cry "badwrongfun" when two lines later you diss a game yourself.
Quote from: Geoff HallNot that I necessarily think that GUMSHOE is the answer (and as I say the demo didn't really sell the system to me particularly) but, well, I don't think you'll find many people better qualified to do a new Cthulhu version than Ken Hite and I certainly don't think it needs dismissing until I've had a chance to check it out.
Yeah, I agree with you on Ken Hite. I'm more skeptical due to Robin Laws' involvement. His CV is made up of half-baked, gimmicky games and he'll be in charge of the system. Ken Hite is mostly a (great) fluff guy and the Mythos is already covered pretty well by different sources.
Quote from: Consonant DudeFuck the extremely lame and always useless "badwrongfun" card!
He thinks the game is great as is, you think it's dated and not really a stunning system. That's it.
See as a standard thing I might agree with you but, well, my previous experience (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=65026&postcount=1) of (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=65439&postcount=22) Franklin's (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=63075&postcount=34) posting has kinda coloured my views on his motivations. I'm pretty sure that the objection is far more based on 'omfg, someone redoing CoC? You can't do that!!!' than any special love of rules that he believes are utterly awesome!
Of course I could be entirely wrong about that but ~shrugs~ until Franklin tells me otherwise I'll go with what I've seen previously.
Quote from: Consonant DudeYou can't cry "badwrongfun" every time someone says he doesn't like a fucking game. And you certainly can't cry "badwrongfun" when two lines later you diss a game yourself.
No, you can't, I said it this time because of my stated opinion on Franklin's posting as mentioned above. I've got nothing against dissing a game, especially if you're able to back it up with WHY you dislike the game. However, dissing the very concept of redoing an old game with a new system is just silly.
As I said I'm unconvinced that GUMSHOE is 'the answer' to CoC 'done right' (whatever that means) but I'll be willing to give it a fair shot when it appears. On a related note I was actually rather impressed by the d20 version of CoC. I wouldn't call it especially better than BRP but it was interesting to see an essentially classless version of d20 done by WotC, the presentation was very good and the GMing advice was absolutely stellar.
Quote from: Consonant DudeYeah, I agree with you on Ken Hite. I'm more skeptical due to Robin Laws' involvement. His CV is made up of half-baked, gimmicky games and he'll be in charge of the system. Ken Hite is mostly a (great) fluff guy and the Mythos is already covered pretty well by different sources.
As I say I'm more than happy with the mythos stuff in d20 CoC (plus, y'know, reading Lovecraft's stories) so, yeah, more fluff, whilst nice, has already been well covered. As to Robin Law's doing the system, well, I've already noted my issues with GUMSHOE (which may or may not be cleared up be reading/playing the full game when it comes out, we shall see.)
I have a feeling that people who were raised on Unknown Armies and Delta Green rather than early CoC won't dig Hite's Cthulhu, but that the rest of us might. And that it'll fix one major issue of Esoterrorists--the bland setting.
yeah, i'm still in a "wait and see" mode, but i've been playing CoC since 1st ed. so it'll just plain feel weird.
Again, as Consonant Dude said, it's not like Chaosium CoC is going away...the GUMSHOE version will simply be an additional "tool in the rpg engine toolbox" and not meant to replace anything.
(and really, until they release GUMSHOE stats for the mythical Delta Green second printing, the 'default' engine of choice is still BRP/d20, imho.)
It's hard when people you like like things you hate. Harder still when people you hate like things you like. Hite and Laws are smart guys who have done interesting things in the past; we'll see what they come up with.
Quote from: Geoff HallSee as a standard thing I might agree with you but, well, my previous experience (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=65026&postcount=1) of (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=65439&postcount=22) Franklin's (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=63075&postcount=34) posting has kinda coloured my views on his motivations. I'm pretty sure that the objection is far more based on 'omfg, someone redoing CoC? You can't do that!!!' than any special love of rules that he believes are utterly awesome!
Of course I could be entirely wrong about that but ~shrugs~ until Franklin tells me otherwise I'll go with what I've seen previously.
You've got a better memory than I do. Didn't notice it was that guy. Sorry if I was a little abrupt earlier but I hate the "badwrongfun" expression and the culture it comes from.
However, I do understand and somewhat agree with the sentiments expressed in your post. I still hate the word "badwrongfun". I think it's close to pathological in my case :p
PS: I really liked D20 CoC fluff. Tynes did great!
Quote from: Consonant DudeYou've got a better memory than I do. Didn't notice it was that guy. Sorry if I was a little abrupt earlier but I hate the "badwrongfun" expression and the culture it comes from.
However, I do understand and somewhat agree with the sentiments expressed in your post. I still hate the word "badwrongfun". I think it's close to pathological in my case :p
PS: I really liked D20 CoC fluff. Tynes did great!
Heh, no real reason you would have remembered. You're significantly more active on these forums than I am (I've only just started to properly de-lurk after 2 or 3 months of mostly watching) and Frank's 'Swinewatch UK' thread was one of the first big threads I'd joined in on (plus it was a cheap shot at some guys I consider frineds so, y'know, slight personal investment), hence my remembering him.
As to abrupt, I wouldn't worry about it. I prefer my forums with a little more wild and a little less west (which I guess is one of the main reasons that I'm here). If people see me post stuff that they think is BS I fully expect to be called on it. I certainly can't blame you for disliking the whole badwrongfun meme, it isn't one of the 'nets more pleasant concoctions if I'm being honest with myself. So, my bad!
And yes, Tynes did a top job, the fluff sections of that book were excellent.
Quote from: Geoff HallYes, change and new things are badwrongfun! :rolleyes:
Nobody's saying that new games shouldn't be created. But just like with the movies, remakes are almost invariably unneccessary, inferior wastes of time, money and effort.
Quote from: beejazzAs for Lovecraftian Superheroes, it's called Hellboy.
As for Lovecraftian supervillains there was a scenario in the Chaosium game Superworld.And Lovecraftian cultists and a huge monster in a scenario in the magazine Different Worlds.