IN MY PANTS!
But seriously, in what feels like countless rpg art flame wa...discussions I've seen this complaints tossed up: I can't read this book in public because it makes people look at me funny. IMO, the covers depicted are no more racy than any number of romance novel covers or magazines (God I'm old...) than I used to see people reading in public constantly with undue shame or gawking. Really these days it seems like reading a book in public is more like to draw looks because its a actual dead tree book.
Which isn't to say there aren't some risque rpg covers (the old Avalanche Press stuff, the Savant and Sorcerer cover was kind of racy, etc). But was it really that embarrassing in light of what people read in public otherwise or more so than reading one of them satanic D and D books in general? Have things just gotten more uptight or am I just clueless so I didn't notice the horrified and offended stares?
I guess you could chalk it up to prudishness. At the same time, I can't think of any of my books, and like a good geek I have dozens, having a cover approaching Harlequin-Romance levels of sexy. A little weird, maybe even a hint of action movie violence, but not really sexy.
I guess the closest book in my collection to anything racy would be RIFTS core? That's girls with guns in one-piece bathing suits.
To me, these sorts of claims would carry more weight if people didn't read books like 50 Shades of Grey in public. Compared to the content in something like that, the average RPG cover is really tame. What really gets me are the people who claim they even have to hide their books at home because heaven forbid their friends and family see that they own a book that might show a few square inches of female flesh.
But to answer your question, yes. There are people that are just that uptight when it comes to anything remotely sexual. And there are lots more people who will pretend to be that uptight just to push their latest agenda.
It seems things may have gotten more uptight, but perhaps only online and in "safe spaces" like colleges. But then I don't hang out with uptight people, if I can help it. Nowadays reading an actual Playboy magazine becomes a retro nostalgic indulgence, so it'd be the perfect cover for your RPG books. It'd also blend well with one's hipster black frame glasses, button down shirts, and microbrew.
I'm sure it's a matter of degree. The Avalanche stuff isn't just "racy", it's such an obvious attempt to exploit juvenile sensibilities that I wouldn't want to read it in public. Or really, I expect the contents to be awful (not indecent or offensive, just bad) when they have those covers.
On the other hand something that's just sexy or gory (within reason) or whatever, no, I've got no problem with it.
I did have a slight bit of self-consciousness reading William Sanders' The Wild Blue and the Gray the other day since it has a painting of an airplane with the Confederate battle flag on the cover, and I happened to be standing near a seated lady who was black. I try not to wave it around now.
The only time I had trouble with cover art was back in the 80's when I was a teenager and my mother saw the cover to a PBM game called Venom. It had a picture of a demon's head (which was bad enough, but the picture had nothing to do with the game.) I had to awkwardly explain that I wasn't reading about demons.
The only thing I can think of is that in general, rpg books are way oversized compared to a novel.
Delta Green: Countdown got me a lot of measured looks at a resort in Florida, which had a lot of Jewish and Israeli guests.
While it's true that some RPG covers in the past (like, approx. 10 years ago at least) were sleazy or tacky, I find it weird that some people in the community were recently complaining that they were embarrassed to go up to the counter to buy them... I mean, think about it: odds are you'd only be able to get these books at the dorkiest of comic or gaming shops. Hell, the guys in the same lineup were probably holding Heavy Metal magazine or those weird anime toys of mostly naked cartoon women. I doubt that bus loads of soccer moms, children and Social Studies college kids would've been gawking in horror.
In another forum complaining about this subject (as if it were still a rampant epidemic and a major deterrent to new or diverse gamers), I argued that it wasn't an issue in mainstream RPGs. You know, the ones that newcomers usually dive into. I even browsed through the top 100 RPGs on Amazon and RPG.net and literally NONE of them had naughty or lewd covers. I even showed them the links but I was told that I was denying other people's experiences. GROAN.
Sometimes I think that people on the internet are just tripping over each other in a race to see who can appear as the most socially conscious and upset whistleblower. "Look at me! Look at how offended I am!"
Could not give fewer shits. We have the 1st Amendment. Put whatever you want on/in your books. Screw anyone who complains. They're merely showing themselves to be assholes. The more in your neighbor's eye, etc.
I've heard a guy saying he didn't want to bring out his Kult (1st edition) book in public because of the art... but I see nothing that transgressive about it.
Of the original AD&D covers, the MM was very far from Dave Sutherland at his best
(https://sp.yimg.com/xj/th?id=OIP.M78026f959be2e92703de141d2dca7767o0&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=300)
while the DMG screamed FANTASY FANATIC FUCK YEA a bit more loudly than was sometimes appropriate for mixed company
(http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/27/d1/bc/27d1bc5d6bad9ebfdc2914101bcbded7.jpg)
and likewise the Otus Deities & Demigods
(https://www.blackgate.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/deities-and-demigods-1e-cover-266x350.jpg)
so I had them under plain brown dust covers sometimes.
The PHB, despite being the same size, seemed less garish but still maybe a bit much.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/09/PlayersHandbook8Cover.jpg)
SPI had really cheesy covers
(http://www.zimlab.com/dq/images/dragonquest-2nd-ed-hard-cover-spi.jpg)
"and when you smile for the camera, I know I love you better"
Notice it's the woman actually taking care of business.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-guVT8MMP-nY/Ur3VH58vpsI/AAAAAAAAIH4/w0gmGWkY174/s1600/UniverseCVR1a700.jpg)
RuneQuest was a thing of beauty!
(http://www.maranci.net/rq2.jpg)
Then there was the naked hard cover, classic elegance:
(http://www.waynesbooks.com/images/graphics/rq2hca.jpg)
The Avalon Hill ed. didn't have proper covers, but what a box! It looks like freaking Apple Computer Lane.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/7e/RuneQuest_deluxe_3rd_edition_softcover_1993.jpg/220px-RuneQuest_deluxe_3rd_edition_softcover_1993.jpg)
That Dragonquest guy's boobs are kinda titillating...
... but have his nipples been shaved off, or what? (Okay, I guess it's stiff leather or metal or something.) Got a sort of proto-Elmore thang going with the pose, but no big-hair chick in leggings to make it so totally '80s. More leather, studs, a mullet? Still a Disco dragon daddy, I'm afraid.
It's definitely an American thing. Up here in the Frozen North, it ain't all that.
Quote from: Simlasa;865030That Dragonquest guy's boobs are kinda titillating...
Stop Objectifying him with your male gaze.
Quote from: Simlasa;865030That Dragonquest guy's boobs are kinda titillating...
Pundit's wrong; Dragonquest, not AoI, is the first RPG to have a trans character on the cover. Hope that lady's getting her yearly mammograms.
Quote from: Phillip;865028Of the original AD&D covers, the MM was very far from Dave Sutherland at his best
(https://sp.yimg.com/xj/th?id=OIP.M78026f959be2e92703de141d2dca7767o0&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=300)
I recall being a little uncomfortable with covers like this back in the day. Probably because I wasn't 8-12 years old.
Does anybody remember that Boris Vellejo and Frank Frazetta were doing book covers at this time that makes everything on this page look tame?
The cover of TOON! makes me feel funny. :rotfl:
This has been going on since before RPGs. It doesnt matter what it is. Someone can and will be offended by it. And Murphys Law is proven to be real because sure enough that one nut case on the face of the earth is sitting right next to you on the bus that one day you have your whatever with you.
Frazetta did good stuff. With Vallejo on the cover, I'd pass it up. I don't think I ever owned anything Boris illustrated.
A usual paperback novel size cover doesn't stand out as much as a full book size.
Quote from: Phillip;865076Frazetta did good stuff. With Vallejo on the cover, I'd pass it up. I don't think I ever owned anything Boris illustrated.
A usual paperback novel size cover doesn't stand out as much as a full book size.
If you bought the paperback printings of Edgar Rice Burroughs Barsoom books in the 70s or 80s, they had Vallejo on the cover.
I've got no problem with any of those covers; maybe I would feel a bit silly reading the MM on the subway, but not ashamed.
If anyone isn't familiar with the AP d20 books, look here under linked items: http://rpggeek.com/rpgpublisher/142/avalanche-press-ltd
There are exceptions but most are awful in my eyes. Funny thing is that AP is a reasonably reputable, serious historical wargame publisher. The covers make out that they're pandering to their own worst notions of the RPG market. Again not so much for the T&A as the bad art using T&A as a crutch.
Quote from: JamesV;864988I guess you could chalk it up to prudishness. At the same time, I can't think of any of my books, and like a good geek I have dozens, having a cover approaching Harlequin-Romance levels of sexy. A little weird, maybe even a hint of action movie violence, but not really sexy.
I guess the closest book in my collection to anything racy would be RIFTS core? That's girls with guns in one-piece bathing suits.
honestly i think prudishness is on the rise iv gotten stink eyes for reading gunslinger girl in public and spice and wolf
ps also when i read otaku usa in public
Quote from: Necrozius;865000While it's true that some RPG covers in the past (like, approx. 10 years ago at least) were sleazy or tacky, I find it weird that some people in the community were recently complaining that they were embarrassed to go up to the counter to buy them... I mean, think about it: odds are you'd only be able to get these books at the dorkiest of comic or gaming shops. Hell, the guys in the same lineup were probably holding Heavy Metal magazine or those weird anime toys of mostly naked cartoon women. I doubt that bus loads of soccer moms, children and Social Studies college kids would've been gawking in horror.
In another forum complaining about this subject (as if it were still a rampant epidemic and a major deterrent to new or diverse gamers), I argued that it wasn't an issue in mainstream RPGs. You know, the ones that newcomers usually dive into. I even browsed through the top 100 RPGs on Amazon and RPG.net and literally NONE of them had naughty or lewd covers. I even showed them the links but I was told that I was denying other people's experiences. GROAN.
Sometimes I think that people on the internet are just tripping over each other in a race to see who can appear as the most socially conscious and upset whistleblower. "Look at me! Look at how offended I am!"
what wrong with heavy metal mag and some of us and are sisters buy those "weird anime toys" and what the top 100 bought rpgs on amazon/rpg.net has relatively little with what kind of stink eye you get out of some people i once got it for reading the freeking 3.5 dmg im still trying to figure that one out
Quote from: Necrozius;865000Sometimes I think that people on the internet are just tripping over each other in a race to see who can appear as the most socially conscious and upset whistleblower. "Look at me! Look at how offended I am!"
I'm pretty sure that is what's going on. Some people just look for reasons to get offended. Social Justice Bingo or something.
Quote from: Nexus;865156I'm pretty sure that is what's going on. Some people just look for reasons to get offended. Social Justice Bingo or something.
sounds accurate
Quote from: Tod13;865081If you bought the paperback printings of Edgar Rice Burroughs Barsoom books in the 70s or 80s, they had Vallejo on the cover.
The set I got has Michael Whelan covers.
Quote from: Phillip;865446The set I got has Michael Whelan covers.
Same here. For me those were the defining Barsoom look.
I felt so much better when the magazine Asian Trash Cinema changed its name to Asian Cult Cinema. Now onlookers might think it's about Unification Church propaganda rather than "Teenage Hooker Becomes a Killing Machine".
Quote from: Omega;865448Same here. For me those were the defining Barsoom look.
I like those covers but my first intro were the old d'Achille ones
http://www.tarzan.org/art/dachille.jpg
... which had a flavor that reminded me of Star Trek, Bonanza and The Wild Wild West. So my mental image of the place was always quite warm and dusty... with just a bit of Spaghetti Western (not sure why I feel that fits).
I've never been all that worried about the image on the front of a book... but there was a time where I was loathe to be seen with anything having 'Dungeons & Dragons' emblazoned on the cover... because for a lot of folks it pretty much equates to man-child.
I was reading Chill 3rd and A Red and Pleasant Land in public recently, which was fun because I realized I'd hit a new "too old to give a shift" plateau and was really enjoying it.
Not sure I'd think to read a DCC module in public, though. Will have to try.
One of my favorite "public consumption" tomes back in the day was Kult....also Unknown Armies later on.
...Honestly though, I think any funny looks I get have more to do with the shock of seeing someone reading a book at all anymore. I get the same looks from people who see me reading on my tablet (and realize I'm actually reading, not playing Candy Crush or whatever).
Quote from: camazotz;865457I was reading Chill 3rd and A Red and Pleasant Land in public recently, which was fun because I realized I'd hit a new "too old to give a shift" plateau and was really enjoying it.
Almost one of us. Almost.
I don't give a small flying turd about what other people think about what I'm reading, and if it keeps me off jury duty, so much the better.
a couple of the guys in one of my groups had really conservative christian parents, and they had issues with the cover of Kult. Then they read the book, and they had even more issues with it. They were OK with In Nomine because my friends had the 'angelic' hardcover edition, I went with the 'demonic' black.
I have a copy of the Avalon Hill Runequest that is an all in one volume edition with that same cover.
Quote from: Phillip;865446The set I got has Michael Whelan covers.
You're right. Same comment holds to a lesser degree though. Maybe I bought older books--at that time, 25 cents at Half Price Books was a bargain. :) Or maybe I'm just confused because they used Vallejo art everywhere a lot back then?
I can't remember getting a stink eye for a reading anything in the past couple decades, but I remember lots of disapproving looks from old fucks and concerned mommies back when I was a teenager on the bus reading whatever.
My reaction? I'd start playing with my junk.
I'm pretty sure I caused spinal damage to a couple geezers as they whiplashed their heads away from the sight of me digging in my shorts.
What can I say? Momma always told me to stay classy.
Growing up under the Satanic Panic, I had to hide my gaming for most of my 32 years in the hobby. I got in the habit of not reading things in public or used something mundane as a cover.
I think of all the game books I have ever seen on a store shelf that ever made me go WTF?! was the Savant&Sorcerer book for Exalted... Our local game shop had on copy blatantly on one of the shelves, and I remember one mother shooshing her 12 year old away from the "porn rack" (her words) as they walked passed the RPG section. I dont know who thought that cover was a good idea, but he had some serious issues... Before I left the store, I moved the book so it wasnt displaying its cover any longer, just the spine...
Actually I have an older Ballantine ed. of "Thuvia, Maid of Mars" with a cover by an Italian artist (in name, anyway). It naturally has the female figure as its focus, but I'd say it's in thoroughly good taste (and rather classic style).
The only cover I ever had to think twice about was one of the Cyberpunk ChromeBooks. Frankly I never thought much about it myself, but one of my friends was mortified to read it. I just though the covers were very Cyberpunkish, and got to the stuff inside.
But then again, I figured reading an RPG in high school was basically a fast forward to nerd status, so what did it matter was on the cover of said RPG?
Quote from: Nexus;864985Which isn't to say there aren't some risque rpg covers (the old Avalanche Press stuff, the Savant and Sorcerer cover was kind of racy, etc). But was it really that embarrassing in light of what people read in public otherwise or more so than reading one of them satanic D and D books in general? Have things just gotten more uptight or am I just clueless so I didn't notice the horrified and offended stares?
It's all about moral grandstanding and signaling one's virtue by being righteously indignant in a loudly public way. In order to engage in that sort of moral grandstanding, they need something to be loudly and righteously indignant about. They need to find something,
anything that they can express their righteous indignation about. In an era where real sexism is pretty much gone from RPGs with the exception of a few fringe games no one takes seriously, this takes some work. You have to search for something to be offended by and stretch to come up with some reason why it's offensive. Hyperbolically describing mildly racy covers as "blatant misogyny" and getting worked up "the misogyny" is a popular way of turning the non-issue of a midly racy cover into a big deal that one can be properly righteously indignant about. It's a popular option alongside things like quibbling about pronouns and tallying which identity politics checkboxes aren't checked by the NPCs or sample PCs and then bitching about lack of "diversity" and "representation"
It's all just people looking for something to be offended so they can show people how Progressive with a capital P they are by being loudly and publicly offended.