The reason they're taking away heroism from D&D, and the reason why WoTC is calling short adventure books 'settings', and the reason why even well-meaning 5e players seem totally lost about the real RPG experience, can all be explained by one simple statistic.

#dnd #ttrpg #osr #dnd5e 

I watched your video; and I kept waiting to hear you say the one word in particular, which accurately names exactly what you are describing: "Casuals".

The hobby is now full of "Casuals".   Not a criticism of the hobby; just an observation, and assessment.  Many, many people latching on to the hobby now; are Casual fans of D&D.  They're not "all in".  They may also move on to something else, once they tire of D&D.

Great video.

Sadly, it's pretty common for this to happen when things get popular and go corporate. Hasbro wants to sell as much D&D branded junk as possible. They will spend their energy appealing to the typical D&D "fan." Not player. Not GM. Fan. The fan buys a few books, signs up for some online subscription, buys some pretty dice, buys a shirt and some branded candy, and plays a few games. And since they're a true fan, they accept no substitutes and only buy the official D&D gear. A fan getting into D&D spends more than the average grognard has spent in the past X years (X=5, I don't know, but Hasbro has done this math, make no mistake). Fans vastly outnumber players who stick around for a proper campaign. And the best part is fans are easy to attract with shiny bobbles.

You're both right about those points.

I don't want to disparage anybody but could this phenomenon also be partly due to mental illness? A great many woke people complain of mental health issues and in my experience people with such issues simply don't last long in a game. Having a bunch of such players in a group will quickly make it fall apart and could explain the extremely short duration of many "campaigns".

Social retardation inhibits good gaming, certainly.

Quote from: Rhymer88 on December 17, 2021, 02:39:34 AM
I don't want to disparage anybody but could this phenomenon also be partly due to mental illness? A great many woke people complain of mental health issues and in my experience people with such issues simply don't last long in a game. Having a bunch of such players in a group will quickly make it fall apart and could explain the extremely short duration of many "campaigns".

How did we get a generation of mental defectives?  They didn't just develop mental health issues she to covid lockdowns, there have been these insane people for at least 5 years or more being prominent and being taken seriously.

Quote from: Jam The MF on December 16, 2021, 06:22:54 PM
The hobby is now full of "Casuals".   Not a criticism of the hobby; just an observation, and assessment.  Many, many people latching on to the hobby now; are Casual fans of D&D.  They're not "all in".  They may also move on to something else, once they tire of D&D.

I like the term casual. I've been using tourist. My kid told me her high school was full of trans-tourists. Those that want all the attention without the full commitment of actually being trans. A step further removed than 'casual' but pretending to be a super-involved member of the community none-the-less.

Quote from: 3catcircus on December 17, 2021, 08:37:55 AM

Quote from: Rhymer88 on December 17, 2021, 02:39:34 AM
I don't want to disparage anybody but could this phenomenon also be partly due to mental illness? A great many woke people complain of mental health issues and in my experience people with such issues simply don't last long in a game. Having a bunch of such players in a group will quickly make it fall apart and could explain the extremely short duration of many "campaigns".

How did we get a generation of mental defectives?  They didn't just develop mental health issues she to covid lockdowns, there have been these insane people for at least 5 years or more being prominent and being taken seriously.

Arm people with Google searches for psychological and medical conditions and incentivize them with a victimhood culture where they can gain power over people through their self-diagnosed "illnesses" and bingo bango you have a society full of weaponized narcissists.

The "real RPG experience".

One True Wayism runs deep with you, doesn't it?

Quote from: LouProsperi on December 17, 2021, 11:57:26 AM
The "real RPG experience".

One True Wayism runs deep with you, doesn't it?

Anyone who's been around here awhile knows I'm as Anti-OneTrueWayism as it gets, but even I have to admit that Pundit has a point here about the difference in perspective between those who view sessions that wouldn't even add up to the time it takes to binge watch a season of a Netflix series to be a complete campaign and those who engage with the same system and characters for months to years.

I don't know that it necessarily takes 300+ hours over two years... my life doesn't allow me sessions much more than 3-4 hours at a rate of 2-3 times a month... but definitely not just six sessions. Something that short and I'd actually throw the PC concept back into my "potential" pile to reuse because I wouldn't have even considered that to have been a campaign.

I think noting the difference between, let's call them D&D tourists and D&D campaigners, isn't so much OneTrueWayism as it just acknowledging that the two have about as much in common as the guy who buys model trains to put on his shelf and the guy who buys model trains and all manner of terrain to create a fifty foot long model rail line that runs through several model towns, forests and mountains in his basement and runs them religiously every weekend.

Quote from: LouProsperi on December 17, 2021, 11:57:26 AM
The "real RPG experience".

One True Wayism runs deep with you, doesn't it?

Welcome to the board Lou.

Keep in mind that "one true wayism" is a rhetorical technique. Most reasonable people already understand that there are exceptions to everything.

Quote from: Rhymer88 on December 17, 2021, 02:39:34 AM
I don't want to disparage anybody but could this phenomenon also be partly due to mental illness? A great many woke people complain of mental health issues and in my experience people with such issues simply don't last long in a game. Having a bunch of such players in a group will quickly make it fall apart and could explain the extremely short duration of many "campaigns".

They're not really mentally ill. It's just performative mental illness to score oppression olympics points. As someone who grew up around actual mental illness, it's fucking repugnant to see.

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 17, 2021, 12:21:50 PM

Quote from: LouProsperi on December 17, 2021, 11:57:26 AM
The "real RPG experience".

One True Wayism runs deep with you, doesn't it?

Anyone who's been around here awhile knows I'm as Anti-OneTrueWayism as it gets, but even I have to admit that Pundit has a point here about the difference in perspective between those who view sessions that wouldn't even add up to the time it takes to binge watch a season of a Netflix series to be a complete campaign and those who engage with the same system and characters for months to years.

I don't know that it necessarily takes 300+ hours over two years... my life doesn't allow me sessions much more than 3-4 hours at a rate of 2-3 times a month... but definitely not just six sessions. Something that short and I'd actually throw the PC concept back into my "potential" pile to reuse because I wouldn't have even considered that to have been a campaign.

I think noting the difference between, let's call them D&D tourists and D&D campaigners, isn't so much OneTrueWayism as it just acknowledging that the two have about as much in common as the guy who buys model trains to put on his shelf and the guy who buys model trains and all manner of terrain to create a fifty foot long model rail line that runs through several model towns, forests and mountains in his basement and runs them religiously every weekend.

I agree there is a difference in experience between a short campaign (5-6 sessions) and a long extensive campaign in which the PCs contribute to the development of the world, but they're both "real" RPG experiences.

It could very well be that the latter is an objectively better experience, but that doesn't make it any more "real".

One of the biggest challenges I have with Pundit is his belief that if you play RPGs differently than he does you're doing it "wrong".  IMO, of the best things about RPGs is that outside of using/adjudicating the rules incorrectly, there is no "wrong" way to play RPGs.


Lou Prosperi

Quote from: LouProsperi on December 17, 2021, 02:24:51 PM

I agree there is a difference in experience between a short campaign (5-6 sessions) and a long extensive campaign in which the PCs contribute to the development of the world, but they're both "real" RPG experiences.

Wait a second. Let's not conflate that just because two different groups engage in the same thing they're the qualitatively the same. This is a post-modern malfunction of conflating lesser upwards, and greater downwards to make zero distinctions between them, for the rhetorical claim to be contrary to someone with a clearly more nuanced opinion.

I use this analogy all the time - I run in-depth games. I'm trying to run MLB Baseball. I don't want players that just want to play little-league T-ball with zero ambition to want more. Yes they're both "baseball" - but they are very different games.

That someone "likes" T-ball is not the issue. The issue is that "T-ball" is not representative of "quality" play. If you want to debate "quality" that's fair - lets absolutely do so, but let's not pretend that there is no distinction between what is being discussed.

Quote from: LouProsperi on December 17, 2021, 02:24:51 PMIt could very well be that the latter is an objectively better experience, but that doesn't make it any more "real".

Who is making this claim aside from you? This is like watching porn and saying "this is sex." It's just as real as engaging in the real thing. Well *someone* is having sex. But it's not the same qualitative thing.

Quote from: LouProsperi on December 17, 2021, 02:24:51 PMOne of the biggest challenges I have with Pundit is his belief that if you play RPGs differently than he does you're doing it "wrong".  IMO, of the best things about RPGs is that outside of using/adjudicating the rules incorrectly, there is no "wrong" way to play RPGs.

Maybe it's because you may not have ever experienced gaming at that level? I'm not pretending to know. But I find in all the discussions I'm invariably part of when it comes to GMing is that the people that take the most offense are *only* those that engage in these low-quality games being told that by the standards of experienced GM's that have been doing this for years, exactly that: low-grade gaming. It's purely ego driven and shows an incredible level of lack of awareness.

We're called "gatekeepers", "One True Way Sinners" or some other silly shit. The reality is it's a spectrum of engagement and many of us have a deeper stake in our games. The things that casual players apparently struggle to do are trivial to us because we are more experienced, use better techniques (which are learnable AND teachable) we are *engaged* in the hobby.

It's not "one true way" - anymore than someone that actually engages with their craft in a deeper way, makes those experiences more meaningful.

If you apply this "distaste" to Pundit - and others here - then I question how you apply it to literally everything else in your life where people spend their lives engaged in things deeply and you enter into conversations with them about the craft.

It would be like (yes this is hyperbolic to explain the silliness of your claim) - telling Leonardo Da Vinci that fingerpainting is just as valid as his oil-painting.