The scene: Your at your FLGS running your 2nd session of a fantasy game with 6 players new to your table. 4 of them are veteran gamers, 2 of them are somewhat new to RPGs. The first session was exciting, everyone was engaged, and having fun. After all the introductions, quick summary and what not you put in a solid 3 hours of play. The scenario was set; the PCs headed out to the Dark Forest to find out what happened to Alderman Put's latest shipment from The Large City several days travel to the south. The first encounter was with the ubiquitous Goblins, who provided our 1st level PCs with some challenge. Then the PCs follow the tracks back to the cave entrance where the Goblins clearly came from. Session one ends.
Queue the 2nd session. The PCs have encountered some resistance in the cave and defeated several small groups of Goblins guarding various passageways. They decided to go left, overcame a nasty pit trap and are now exploring some caverns that branch out here. The dungeon you have prepped has no real encounters in these caverns. You have encounter tables ready to go, but the last couple checks came up "no encounter". A small amount of time goes by exploring and deciding which way to go.
Then two of the players, one veteran, one new nod off to other places and start doodling and fidgeting; clearly no longer engaged or paying attention.
What do you do?
P.S. You're the GM.
P.S.S Make any or no assumptions based on your experience or even better based on the lesson/advice you want to share.
Clarification questions are of course welcome. :-D
Show signs of an approaching threat.
Go with the weird. I pretty much always have a number of 'D&D is a weird place' encounters to go, and drop one in. "No encounter" has its place on a wandering monster table. When populating a dungeon, "No monsters, no trap, no secret door" doesn't have to mean an empty room.
1. My fault for bringing an open exploration map to a 3 hour FLGS game with new players. :D Don't do that.
2. Their fault for having the attention span of a Mayfly.
1 I can correct, just design better next time.
2 I cannot correct, I'll have to evaluate this later to see if these are adrenaline junkie players.
Solution 1: some form of...Ninjas Attack!
- Piercers, Cave Fishers or some other "When you least expect it, expect it." monster to readjust the perception that this is "empty space".
- Place Undead somewhere in the back of the caverns to explain why they are so empty, again the point is to adjust the perception that "nothing is happening" just because Orcs aren't coming out of the stonework.
- As Cranebump says, environmental descriptions putting them back on point, again readjusting the perception.
Solution 2: Play it out normally, then talk to them afterward and find out what's what. If they literally can't keep focused for two missed encounter rolls, then they're looking for more of an action-focused campaign. This campaign may or may not be for them.
It's kind of hard to do this one because the assumption is something normally I wouldn't do. If I was doing a 3-4 hours FLGS session with new players I'd try to come up with something that is more tight and contained than usual to avoid the type of chaotic sprawl that can happen in a long-term campaign that might be going for longer sessions.
But if more than one player is drifting at the same time, it's simple, either they are incompatible with my GMing style, or I'm just fucking up, so I have to call an audible to get things back on track.
Normally, I wouldn't invent stuff at the table like that, but doing a limited time FLGS session with new players, it's not SOP to begin with.
Call a pee break and when I sit back down again see if they've refocused.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;938773Call a pee break and when I sit back down again see if they've refocused.
So sayeth the Master. We do dramatically overthink things, and can't see the forest for the trees at times.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/155445342/1h53xm.jpg)
Drop an encounter in and see if that interests them.
Drop a map of something and see if that interests them.
Were they doodling/sketching things from the game (i.e. drawing portraits of their characters, etc.)?
* bow *
Every once in a while when the Players start drifting, tell them to make a Perception check or a Saving Throw or ask what their marching order is. Nothing has to happen, but it is a not so gentle reminder that this world their characters are in is still worth paying attention to because threats are present.
I had a friend who would get miffed at at us if we did that. Sometimes, he'd tell us, "Make a saving throw!"
Our English teacher would do the same thing, but with pop quizzes. Maybe he got it from her. It did get us to pay attention. Makes me laugh now.
Doodling on paper probably fine. If they are in their phone disaster.
(Also keep them out of the rule books no good comes of that)
I doodle during games. It keeps my imagination active and helps me engage withe the fantasy environment.
A GM shouldn't mistake doodling for not paying attention. I'm very capable of doing both.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;938838I doodle during games. It keeps my imagination active and helps me engage withe the fantasy environment.
A GM shouldn't mistake doodling for not paying attention. I'm very capable of doing both.
You're an artist. :D
Just like with the last entry in the series, I think people (including me) are being a little too literal. Replace doodling with phone or tablet use, side talking, reading a different RPG book or anything else that could be "in your opinion, your player's attention is lagging, how do you recapture it?"
First, assess what's actually going on with those players, relative to the game. It's not my job to keep ADD people thrilled all the time, and I don't need everyone to be an attentive player, though I may talk to them between sessions to see if it's better if they just not show up. I won't alter the universe to entertain such. I will however adjust the time frame and the way I engage the players. If nothing is going on, we can accelerate how we move from place to place. If player input is needed, I can ask players for it.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;938838I doodle during games. It keeps my imagination active and helps me engage withe the fantasy environment.
A GM shouldn't mistake doodling for not paying attention. I'm very capable of doing both.
Actually, that's completely true. Some people do concentrate better when they fidget.
I take it that the OP's example stood out because maybe it wasn't usual for his players to do that.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;938780Were they doodling/sketching things from the game (i.e. drawing portraits of their characters, etc.)?
Yeah, I have had artists in most of my groups over the years. It's usually a good sign then when they are doodling as it means I have set their imaginations going. It's always fun to see someone hold up a picture of monster I just described.
But taking the question in the spirit it was intended. So, they are in an empty cavern complex? I just adjust the time scale.
"You spend another four hours searching these caverns thoroughly and find nothing."
Now they can turn right and get on with the adventure. It's not so much about them being bored. I would be bored going slowly room by room in an empty cavern complex on the off chance of hitting a random encounter. Like Krueger, I can't really see putting myself in this situation in the first place though. Maybe when I was kid and played 10 hour session, that might be fun to fill some time, but I don't want to run a session of Spelunking Surveyor now.
Enjoy their startled reactions when all hell inevitably breaks loose. Because sooner or later it probably will.
But personally I wouldnt rely just on random chance unless its been weighted for something to happen. Otherwise you will get spaces of not much happening.
Mind you in some times those long stretches of nothing can really serve the moment because you know theres something out there. Like exploring a haunted house or derilect ship or abandoned mine.
Quote from: CRKrueger;938840...
Just like with the last entry in the series, I think people (including me) are being a little too literal. Replace doodling with phone or tablet use, side talking, reading a different RPG book or anything else that could be "in your opinion, your player's attention is lagging, how do you recapture it?"
Again, Spot on Mr. Krueger. It's a thought exercise. :-D
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;938850Actually, that's completely true. Some people do concentrate better when they fidget.
I take it that the OP's example stood out because maybe it wasn't usual for his players to do that.
It's not any particular example of any particular players. I did seed it with some "conditionals" but it's more about your assumptions, your ideas and your opinions. It's about the discussion, not the particulars.
Quote from: Omega;938858...
But personally I wouldnt rely just on random chance unless its been weighted for something to happen. Otherwise you will get spaces of not much happening.
Mind you in some times those long stretches of nothing can really serve the moment because you know theres something out there. Like exploring a haunted house or derilect ship or abandoned mine.
This is an interesting point. So, what are some ways you (as the GM) might avoid the "random encounter empty spaces"? Also, are there things you do to help build suspense in the stretches of nothing? Could/Would you encourage any PC interaction? Is that a good way to utilize time outside encounters?
I just let the empty moments go as they end sooner or later. But a totally random delve will be totally random and you can end up with some really odd combos like a dungeon thats three rooms and its all empty.
To me this is not a bad thing. Not every 10ft of dungeon has to be packed with encounters. In fact I find that a detraction. But sometimes yeah you do walk into a veritible nest of pointy death.
To me theres big empty spaces are part of the fun of exploration and atmosphere of delving places.
As for pacing its sometimes as easy as "you explore the next three rooms and find much the same as the last three, empty and deserted." which can get the players wondering why this place is so empty. Or get me the DM wondering that.
The inhabitants are aware of the PCs and have vacated the area.
The place is actually uninhabited. But full of traps the PCs just have lucked out and not triggered... so far..
The PCs are comically just missing large patrolls following the same route.
The PCs are not so comically being tailed by a large patrol on the same route.
Another group has cleared this section or the whole place. (Running into other adventuring parties or the aftermath used to be a thing in BX and AD&D.)
Everythings in one room.
Don't worry about the players that checked out; keep playing with whoever is at the table.
For a large section of unpopulated caverns, fast forward time the same way you would an outdoors adventure. Stop when they would hit decision points, something interesting, or a player says they want to game out every inch.
Assuming we're talking a dungeon here since that seems what is implied... I almost never go more than 50 or 60 feet without an intersection. Every intersection is a decision, so this keeps the players engaged.
Quote from: trechriron;938745What do you do?
1) Declare "Something moving fast in the shadows! Roll for initiative!"
2) Scribble shit down.
3) Declare "I need DEX saves from who's in the front ranks...and WIS saves from whoever's in the rear."
4) Scribble shit down.
5) Declare "Let's take a break and be back in 5 minutes."
6) Go slam espresso shots because WTF am I doing running such unprepped weaksauce???
BTW, I love random encounter tables, but I never have a "no result" option.
Here's my standard "RANDOM EVENT" chart
1 - MONSTER (roll on the Wandering Monster chart)
2 - HINT OF MONSTER (roll on the Wandering Monster chart, describe something about its passage through here)
3 - WEIRD SOUNDS
4 - ATMOSPHERE (something tactile about the place)
5 - 6 - NPC does/says something.
So something would have occurred in those empty caverns.
If a wandering monster didn't show, then there was some hint of its passage. AKA, the marks where the goblins dragged in their kill and chopped him up, the huge gooey crap of a giant spider, etc. Or, there would have been echoing sounds from somewhere deeper, or a stalactite would crash into a puddle, or one of the 0 level mercenaries would decide to poke where he shouldn't.
There are no empty rooms. They may be empty of monsters, traps or treasure, but not empty of a moment of interest.
Right. Not all random encounters have to be monsters or combat.
Like you find the skeleton or body of what might have been a past explorer. Or you hear some strange noise that isnt the wind. Or the area you just passed through was unusualy cold. Or this section of passage is carved in a totally different style. etc.
Hell, back in 1975 or 1976 Judge's Guild had dungeon maps with random sounds marked on the maps. "You hear the sound of rattling chains off in the distance." Much like a haunted house, it didn't mean anything, but it was, and still is, great for effect.
Don't worry. Be happy. It's not my job to entertain the players. But it's also not my job to recap for them when inattentive players get blindsided.
After the session is over, I'd talk to them to see whether they enjoyed it (some players can
really enjoy gaming sessions even when not maintaining active engagement with the GM!), if there's something that didn't work for them, etc. But I'm not going to warp the game's reality to drop in Chandler's Ninjas every time someone's attention wanders.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;938773Call a pee break and when I sit back down again see if they've refocused.
Further props to the master. I doubt I would have thought of this on my own, but it's one that I'll be sure to keep up my sleeve in case I have use for it in the future.
Quote from: Spinachcat;938955BTW, I love random encounter tables, but I never have a "no result" option.
Really? So
something happens like clockwork every X minutes in your games? If so, that strikes me as very strange. ("I just heard chains rattling... Must be 3 o'clock!")
Quote from: Spinachcat;9389551) ...
There are no empty rooms. They may be empty of monsters, traps or treasure, but not empty of a moment of interest.
Good stuff Spinachcat!
Quote from: trechriron;938745The scene: You're at your FLGS running your 2nd session of a fantasy game with 6 players new to your table.
4 of them are veteran gamers, 2 of them are somewhat new to RPGs. The first session was exciting, everyone was engaged, and having fun. After all the introductions, quick summary and what not you put in a solid 3 hours of play.
The scenario was set; the PCs headed out to the Dark Forest to find out what happened to Alderman Put's latest shipment from The Large City several days travel to the south.
This is the party goal which had everyone engaged. Good to know.
Quote from: trechriron;938745The first encounter was with the ubiquitous Goblins, who provided our 1st level PCs with some challenge.
Then the PCs follow the tracks back to the cave entrance where the Goblins clearly came from.
Session one ends.
So combat and pursuing clues engaged them eh? Check.
Quote from: trechriron;938745Queue the 2nd session. The PCs have encountered some resistance in the cave and defeated several small groups of Goblins guarding various passageways.
They decided to go left, overcame a nasty pit trap and are now exploring some caverns that branch out here.
The dungeon you have prepped has no real encounters in these caverns.
You have encounter tables ready to go, but the last couple checks came up "no encounter".
A small amount of time goes by exploring and deciding which way to go.
Then two of the players, one veteran, one new nod off to other places and start doodling and fidgeting; clearly no longer engaged or paying attention.
What do you do?
P.S. You're the GM.
P.S.S Make any or no assumptions based on your experience or even better based on the lesson/advice you want to share.
So we have two players representing different demographics disengaging with the adventure. Our goal is to re-engage them. It's a matter of how best to pursue that goal.
Here's what we know: These unengaged players were previously engaged by:
1) Battles
2) Pursuing clues
3) Evading traps
4) Pursuing the overall scenario goal
My answer is simple: ask them what they DO.
I'll tell them what they find in these caverns. If there are no encounters, and no clues, why did I prep them?*
If they continue zoning out, I focus my efforts on the continuing investigation (the party is doing 4 and 2, with a potential for 3 if there are more traps, and 1 if I roll an encounter).
If the two unengaged players are only interested in battles (or battles and traps) or have issue with the pacing of the game, I expect them to speak up, not zone out.
Since they ARE zoning out: my most effective tactic is to ask them "What do you DO now?"
This way, they're the authors of their own engagement. If they continually tell me "nothing" or "I'm waiting for SOMETHING to happen" or "Whatever the party is doing" AND they continually space out? Then they're wasting their own time gaming with us.
If they want a battle they should seek it (I won't say them nay). If they want clues, then they should look for them and engage with the process of investigation. If they're engaged (as players) by pursuing the goals of the party, then the caverns I prepped should allow that (and thereby BE engaging through whatever method).
*If I screwed up and made a bunch of clue-free caverns with zero content (or only the chance of content based on an encounter roll) then I've made a trap for the players, not the characters. This trap is: "If you go down these passages, you will waste your at-the-table time accomplishing nothing and engaging with nothing until boredom forces you to double back". I can't really blame somebody for zoning out in this case. In fact, I'd probably admit at the table that I screwed up, and just straight tell them there was nothing there and that I'm a dummy.
Quote from: Azraele;939186In fact, I'd probably admit at the table that I screwed up, and just straight tell them there was nothing there and that I'm a dummy.
Unless it's an obvious, verifiable or mechanical error, fix the problem without letting players know you made a mistake or how you make the sausage. Good suspension of disbelief is hampered by lack of trust in the GM's abilities.
Quote from: CRKrueger;939190Unless it's an obvious, verifiable or mechanical error, fix the problem without letting players know you made a mistake or how you make the sausage. Good suspension of disbelief is hampered by lack of trust in the GM's abilities.
So, fix it by lying. I see...yessss....(ignorance is strength!).:-)
But seriously, sometimes we screw up, no? I'll usually reveal this afterward, if it comes up. I don't think it's harmed our games. Yet.
Of course, they MAY be hiding their sausage recipes...:-)
Quote from: cranebump;939199So, fix it by lying. I see...yessss....(ignorance is strength!).:-)
But seriously, sometimes we screw up, no? I'll usually reveal this afterward, if it comes up. I don't think it's harmed our games. Yet.
Of course, they MAY be hiding their sausage recipes...:-)
Sure we screw up, and most of the time it's just "Yeah I forgot about the +1" type crap. "Sorry guys, I made this entire cavern empty for some reason, I dunno what the fuck I was thinking." is a little different.
If you know how to fix it, ie. like you said..."Show signs of an approaching threat." then just do that.
This...
"You guys see marks where it looks like something has been dragged deeper into the cave."
not...
"Sorry guys, I made this entire cavern empty for some reason, I dunno what the fuck I was thinking...You guys see marks where it looks like something has been dragged deeper into the cave."
The roll for an encounter is a support of the referee, not a mandate. The first principle of Free Kriegsspiel is that referee judgement is paramount. You are not bound by the "no encounter" roll.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;939224The roll for an encounter is a support of the referee, not a mandate. The first principle of Free Kriegsspiel is that referee judgement is paramount. You are not bound by the "no encounter" roll.
Thank you! It's there to randomly generate content when the well runs dry, or things could use a little stochastic refreshment.
That said, it's also a pacing issue. Sometimes nothing there
is OK. You just don't have to drag it out in real time.
However, when I generate location content I have a rationale (even if it is an irrational "because I said so, F U, you poncy pedants!" rationale). So even an empty hole in the ground is more than just a found empty dirt hole, otherwise why am I making it a notable location? The location becomes an encounter onto itself at that point, an environmental encounter.
Also I do prefer the whole separation of Encounter rolls from Random Encounter chart. Then I can quickly roll up Encounter rolls ahead of time to prep what, if any, chart encounters result. It gives me foreknowledge for pacing, makes metagamers nervous, and allows me to integrate encounter results to the location (i.e. as something more than aggro combats to the death).
What do you mean by rolling for Encounters over Random Encounters? If you're rolling for both isn't it the same thing.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;939525What do you mean by rolling for Encounters over Random Encounters? If you're rolling for both isn't it the same thing.
No, they are not the same roll. The Random Encounter Table is there for
Deciding the Encounter Type. The Encounter Roll is for
Determining Encounter Presence w/in Timeframe. The Encounter Roll is a Y/N (pass/fail) roll, whereas a Random Encounter Table closer to degree of success (gives gradient content values).
Yes, you can combine these two concepts into a single function -- just as many games do for pass/fail + DoS. However there are advantages to decoupling linked functions. Sometimes you just need rapid info on several binary questions, such as whether there's
any unforeseen encounters on a specific travel (or dungeon) leg. Instead of constantly looking up a chart for a value that essentially says "nothing here," you are front-loading the basic binary question to give more time to focus on the "Yes!" values.
Naturally, a GM always reserves the prerogative to place a fixed encounter as they deem coherent. (A working monastery has monks! :cool: A musky smelling burrow contains a critter! :cool:) But the above is for when you are throwing content creation to chance for inspiration.
Quote from: nDervish;938985Really? So something happens like clockwork every X minutes in your games? If so, that strikes me as very strange. ("I just heard chains rattling... Must be 3 o'clock!")
I abstract time. I don't always do 1 round = 1 minute or 1 turn = 10 minutes.
So I drop random encounters...randomly.
But if I smell attention lag, I have zero problem with Chandler's Ninjas. Especially in the age of cellphones, sensory overload and video game attention spans. We can yearn for the 70s all we want, but the only 70s that are coming round are the 2070s.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;938961Hell, back in 1975 or 1976 Judge's Guild had dungeon maps with random sounds marked on the maps. "You hear the sound of rattling chains off in the distance." Much like a haunted house, it didn't mean anything, but it was, and still is, great for effect.
For me, dungeon = haunted house.
Quote from: trechriron;938745Then two of the players, one veteran, one new nod off to other places and start doodling and fidgeting; clearly no longer engaged or paying attention.
What do you do?
Look at their doodles and base encounters on them.
Quote from: Old One Eye;938895Don't worry about the players that checked out; keep playing with whoever is at the table.
While there's something to be said for making sure everyone's involved, I've found that putting your energy where it's reciprocated is often a better way of doing that than focusing on the disinterested players directly.
Quote from: nDervish;938985After the session is over, I'd talk to them to see whether they enjoyed it (some players can really enjoy gaming sessions even when not maintaining active engagement with the GM!),
That's also good advice, as just because they're not participating
as expected doesn't mean they're not enjoying the experience.
The only time you need to take action is when this sort of thing
disrupts play, and the only action you should never take is to punish them through in game events.
Doodling is not a problem.
As for paying attention, that is a problem. Usually in my games, not a problem I have. On some occasions where someone gets distracted in some way, it's the rest of the players who police that, because they know that a player not knowing what's going on in the game can be bad for all of them.
Quote from: RPGPundit;939949On some occasions where someone gets distracted in some way, it's the rest of the players who police that, because they know that a player not knowing what's going on in the game can be bad for all of them.
I have had this happen on many, many occasions.
Usually, if a player looks bored, my first thoughts are "oops gotta pick up the pace; let's move this scene along" or "ah, time for an encounter".
As a player I've gotten bored in the past from things seemingly beyond my control: long repetitive fights with bullet-spongey enemies, when the party splits up and I've been waiting more than 20 minutes for the focus to return to my side or when extended periods of nothing occur (no combat, no traps, no encounters, no mysteries etc). I used to just fidget or seethe but my time is precious and so I'll usually speak up. If I go through more than two sessions in a row in which I get flat-out disinterested or bored, I leave the campaign 'cause it's obviously not for me.
Quote from: Necrozius;940123Usually, if a player looks bored, my first thoughts are "oops gotta pick up the pace; let's move this scene along" or "ah, time for an encounter".
As a player I've gotten bored in the past from things seemingly beyond my control: long repetitive fights with bullet-spongey enemies, when the party splits up and I've been waiting more than 20 minutes for the focus to return to my side or when extended periods of nothing occur (no combat, no traps, no encounters, no mysteries etc). I used to just fidget or seethe but my time is precious and so I'll usually speak up. If I go through more than two sessions in a row in which I get flat-out disinterested or bored, I leave the campaign 'cause it's obviously not for me.
Those are all things that bore the hell out of me as GM. In the times when I have been a player and the GM allowed monotony, I cannot help but wonder how the GM is possibly enjoying this.