Quote from: Larsdangly;766211I've always wished the basic approach to attack/parry/dodge/attacks per round from 1E Palladium had gotten poached by D&D.

Plus I love that their classes are real things (like knights) instead of made up video game shite.

Opposed rolls are great in theory but BORING to casual players.

Trust me here. Ever wonder why Palladium is so niche even though it got heavy play by Dnd players? Or how about RQ? That game makes my eyes bleed. Why do you think NWoD was made for that matter?

Quote from: Marleycat;766268Opposed rolls are great in theory but BORING to casual players.

Trust me here. Ever wonder why Palladium is so niche even though it got heavy play by Dnd players? Or how about RQ? That game makes my eyes bleed. Why do you think NWoD was made?

I can't just "trust you" on such a sweeping statement. In my experience, players tend to try to get some kind of roll by GM fiat when one is not standard. The frequency varies, but it's not a casual/non-casual dichotomy.

Basically, I think RP is always presenting players with the question, "What do you do?" There's some resistance to feeling passive, and tossing the dice helps scratch that itch.

Heck, I have the kind of rational mind that figures the dice don't care who rolls them, so why should I? But just try taking the toss out of a player's hands in any game and see how that flies! Most people seem to have an instinctive lust to roll the bones.

Quote from: Phillip;766276I can't just "trust you" on such a sweeping statement. In my experience, players tend to try to get some kind of roll by GM fiat when one is not standard. The frequency varies, but it's not a casual/non-casual dichotomy.

Basically, I think RP is always presenting players with the question, "What do you do?" There's some resistance to feeling passive, and tossing the dice helps scratch that itch.

Heck, I have the kind of rational mind that figures the dice don't care who rolls them, so why should I? But just try taking the toss out of a player's hands in any game and see how that flies! Most people seem to have an instinctive lust to roll the bones.

Maybe for you but the proof is in the pudding. Older games have their niche but it's the middle ground games that most actually play and introduce to new people. And Dnd is classic middle ground once you get past OD&D at best. Likely most new players will grok nothing past 2e but actually 3e. Remember anything older then 2e actually assumed a wargame past.

some more stuff to add, at least with Palladium RPG 1st....

Love the combat system.  It comes across as a much simpler Hackmaster 5th(from what I recall of 5th).  Hit on a 5+, need to get the AR score or above to get through the armor, otherwise armor takes damage- which is SDC.  I like that in 1st, only armor is SDC.

The level charts for each OCC are awesome.  Super quick way of creating NPC's and or foes on the fly.

Yeah, the 'opposed rolls are boring' line is BS. Pendragon is definitely not boring, and its whole thing is opposed rolls.

Compare the 1992 edition of Gamma World (4th) and Rifts. They came out roughly at the same time.

I love that edition of Gamma World, ran many a happy campaign with it. All things considered it very playable.

However it is so uncool it's shocking. The book looks cheap, the gear retro but not in a good way. And just who thought it was a good idea to include skunk, mosquito, ostrich or octopus among the 20 odd character options? It is unsurprising that at the time so many people dismissed is too silly.

Rifts by contrast is tens more over the top and implausible than Gamma World but it's never in your face jarring. Things may not make sense, but Rifts knows how to get away with it and make it work in a dramatic sense. The art, the creativity and clever presentation managed to dial cool up to 11 and made you want suspend disbelief. You quickly snapped out of it when you tried to actually create a character by the rules.

But yeah, the contrast between Gamma World and Rifts pretty much sums up what Palldium was good at.

I have a lot of problems with Palladium that range pretty far all over the map, but I still applaud them for their sheer joy at what they do. That, and the scope of imagination displayed in their products is astounding. I can't think, offhand, of another company that have so many different products covering such a wide range of imaginative possibilities (er... other than Steve Jackson Games, which just came to mind).

I can still remember being a teenager and finding copies of the Mechanoids books and falling in love. Or being absolutely entranced with ARCHIE in Rifts.

Palladium has a voice and has continued to have that voice... Kevins.  After Gygax's TSR, it is the one of the last major names in roleplaying games to have this.  Luckily we live in era of roleplaying that has kept this alive through the OSR and indie publishing but try to find them on a bookshelf at the local FLGS.  With a voice there is passion, that passion leads to inspiration and possibilities.  

I gave away all of my Rifts books because the system drove me mad in play and sure as hell have had my criticisms of the company, yet I still own a fair number of Palladium Books (PFRPG, Heroes Unlimited, Ninjas & Superspies, and Robotech).  Maybe because the system was born from house ruled D&D or because of this, it's the most spectacular toolkit by example but it's still a source of inspiration for games.

Quote from: Gunslinger;767398Palladium has a voice and has continued to have that voice... Kevins.  After Gygax's TSR, it is the one of the last major names in roleplaying games to have this.  Luckily we live in era of roleplaying that has kept this alive through the OSR and indie publishing but try to find them on a bookshelf at the local FLGS.  With a voice there is passion, that passion leads to inspiration and possibilities.  

I gave away all of my Rifts books because the system drove me mad in play and sure as hell have had my criticisms of the company, yet I still own a fair number of Palladium Books (PFRPG, Heroes Unlimited, Ninjas & Superspies, and Robotech).  Maybe because the system was born from house ruled D&D or because of this, it's the most spectacular toolkit by example but it's still a source of inspiration for games.

That pretty much sums up my position as well.  Up to and including the part about giving away the Rifts books.

Quote from: Marleycat;766268Opposed rolls are great in theory but BORING to casual players.

Trust me here. Ever wonder why Palladium is so niche even though it got heavy play by Dnd players? Or how about RQ? That game makes my eyes bleed. Why do you think NWoD was made for that matter?

In my experience, pretty much everyone prefers opposed rolls.

I don't know enough about Runequest or NWod to talk about them.

I think Palladium's niche status now is mostly because of excruciatingly long delays and constant cancellations of books, bad press (deserved and not), and terrible editing.

Another thing I think Palladium does right is the X-Mas Grab bags. At least, they were a good deal when I used to buy them.

Also, the talk about South America 1 inspired me to come up with an alternate-timeline setting premise readable in the below blog link.

Quote from: The Butcher;766171South America 1 sucked big time, but South America 2 is a black hole of suck.

Yeah, but their South America related stuff in Robotech was fucking awesome.

In reference to the OP, I think Palladium Fantasy 1st was probably one of the best. The system grew for there, and now is kind of a clunky mess. Tried to run Rifts again last year, I got to session five before I gave up. A big agreement on the "whiff" factor problem that Palladium wisely solved.

On the subject of opposed rolls, I can say they slow play down quite a lot, and cause even dedicated players to become a little glassy eyed when a prolonged roll off (social or physical) occurs.

Part of why I've always loved Amber - you know who's going to win, now make an argument as to why we should break that rule. It keeps people engaged in the conflict.

Quote from: RPGPundit;768712Yeah, but their South America related stuff in Robotech was fucking awesome.

Are you talking about the stuff in the RDF Manual? Great random encounter charts, and an overall neat post-apoc world to play in. Visualizing Veritechs flying over slagged cities, wondering if a group of Zentradi was lying in cover, waiting to ambush you, it was a great setting. Also got me to look at the rest of the world in a new light, overall. Kudos to Palladium for that little book.

Quote from: Coffee Zombie;768731Are you talking about the stuff in the RDF Manual?

Not just there, some of the other adventure/sourcebooks covered South America in a lot of detail (especially Strike Force, if I remember correctly).

Pundy, why not offer to write South America Revisited?