Thanks!

Quote from: Gabriel2;838105Rifts does not have the rules for Natural AR in the corebook that I could find, but Heroes Unlimited second edition clearly states on page 18 that an attack roll under the Natural AR does no damage.

I hadn't realized that. I guess this explains why people generally don't seem to have heard of this? I'd likewise assume its true in Rifts and not included due to space, rather than deliberately cut.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;838114Thanks!


I hadn't realized that. I guess this explains why people generally don't seem to have heard of this? I'd likewise assume its true in Rifts and not included due to space, rather than deliberately cut.

I remember having an argument about how every different Palladium book having a different version of a rule, and this is exactly one example.

At the same time, the enthusiam and the writing style does engage the reader on a pretty cool level.  And let's face it, as people have said, they have mastered the art of perfect binding for their books, which means that they will last to spark these arguments until kingdom come.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;837181Actually, the problem with that is that...  The A.R. 16 applies to anything that isn't the Cyber-armour.  The AR is supposed to represent the shot hitting something fleshy rather than the armour.

It's a messy patch for a system that didn't think it through.

In this very particular case I'd agree.  Its telling that from what I recall, this rule was never used again for anything other than the cyber-knight.

Quote from: RPGPundit;838120In this very particular case I'd agree.  Its telling that from what I recall, this rule was never used again for anything other than the cyber-knight.

And Triax plain clothes armor.  Rifts Ultimate Edition states that non-environmental armors have AR.

The rules state that AR for MDC armor only comes into play on a called shot.  Otherwise MDC always absorbs damage.

Quote from: Gabriel2;838121And Triax plain clothes armor.  Rifts Ultimate Edition states that non-environmental armors have AR.

The rules state that AR for MDC armor only comes into play on a called shot.  Otherwise MDC always absorbs damage.

Hmm, I didn't remember that.

Quote from: RPGPundit;838322Hmm, I didn't remember that.

Because it is wrong, with the exception of plain clothes armor having an AR.

Some citation would be great.  I just went through the Ultimate Edition and there is no such mention of either of these things (called shot for AR, or non-environmental armor having AR).

Quote from: Bloodwolf;838342Because it is wrong, with the exception of plain clothes armor having an AR.

Some citation would be great.  I just went through the Ultimate Edition and there is no such mention of either of these things (called shot for AR, or non-environmental armor having AR).

Rifts Ultimate Edition p 355
And Armor Rating (AR) does not apply to MDC structures or armor unless the armor does not cover the entire body  Even then, the attacker has to take careful aim and make a Called Shot to hit an unprotected part of the body.

---

So, what these two sentences say is that when armor is partial or non environmental or has an AR, the attacker must make a Called Shot to hit the non MDC armored parts, and then must still beat the AR.

Of course, that also means a Plain Clothes Standard Jacket and Standard Vest don't ever use their AR in practice, but whatever.

Quote from: Gabriel2;838359Rifts Ultimate Edition p 355
And Armor Rating (AR) does not apply to MDC structures or armor unless the armor does not cover the entire body  Even then, the attacker has to take careful aim and make a Called Shot to hit an unprotected part of the body.

---

So, what these two sentences say is that when armor is partial or non environmental or has an AR, the attacker must make a Called Shot to hit the non MDC armored parts, and then must still beat the AR.

Of course, that also means a Plain Clothes Standard Jacket and Standard Vest don't ever use their AR in practice, but whatever.

So what's the A.R. of those items?

Quote from: Gabriel2;838359Rifts Ultimate Edition p 355
And Armor Rating (AR) does not apply to MDC structures or armor unless the armor does not cover the entire body

That's a weird extrapolation and is in fact the only time I have ever heard anyone make that suggestion.  Nothing in that section states MDC armor has AR.  In fact, the only thing it states is that, once Environmental armor reaches 15% of its MDC, it is no longer environmentally sealed.  I stand by my argument. You are wrong.

Body armor covers the entire body, unless it has an AR, not the other way around.  Body armor does not have an AR (with the exception of the clothing in the Triax book), therefore it covers the entire body.  Nowhere does it state that non-environmental armor has an AR.  Nowhere.

There are 2 cases of MDC armor with AR:  The Cyber Knight and the plain clothes armor.  Those two examples do not create a precedent for your statement that other types of MDC armor have AR.

I don't know what to make of that statement since it does seem to just be ditching the AR? Maybe too many cyber-knights were exploding?

When I think of 'partial' armour the first thing to come to mind is the Blind Warrior Woman MDC swimsuit (30 MDC according to Atlantis). It doesn't have an AR, but from the illustrations (e.g. main book) seems to leave a lot exposed...

The only thing I can find about AR and MDC armor is when SDC weapons are used against it...

Chaos Earth, page 151 "SDC weapons vs opponents in "partial" MDC body armor"
It lists two optional rules for this situation:
1. Require a called shot to target openings in the armor. A 12 or better is required to hit a stationary target, a 15 to hit a moving one, and a 17 to hit one moving really fast. A success means the MDC armor is bypassed and the target inside is hit. It makes a special note that without a called shot, strikes are assumed to hit the main body.
2. Assign the body armor an Armor Rating (GMs fiat). It makes a special note to ignore AR if the attacker is using MD weapons due to the "lethality aspect," with those hits damaging the armor first. It also notes that some SDC armors may have hundreds of SDC, making them equivalent to minor MDC. It does not address whether the MD attacker has to roll against the AR of the SDC suit, if the suit has minor MDC, though. Although it does suggest that AR isn't applied in that case with the last sentence of the paragraph; "In this case, every 100 SDC points equals one MD point." With the implication that MDC armor doesn't have an AR, therefore AR isn't used in this case.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;838386I don't know what to make of that statement since it does seem to just be ditching the AR? Maybe too many cyber-knights were exploding?

When I think of 'partial' armour the first thing to come to mind is the Blind Warrior Woman MDC swimsuit (30 MDC according to Atlantis). It doesn't have an AR, but from the illustrations (e.g. main book) seems to leave a lot exposed...

Duh!?

That's because in Rifts you shoot at the Armor. Not the exposed flesh-What's the fun in that?