I was reading the Knights of the Dinner Table Issue 271 and I found an interesting reference to TheRpgSite, which I present without comment:
Quote from: DeadDMWalkingAutism and Conventions
I just finished reading #267 and #268 - I kept 267 unopened for a few agonizing weeks so I wouldn't get stuck on a cliff-hanger that'd drive me crazy (again).
The strips have been amazing. I've been reading regularly since 2001. I love everything you guys do - I understand why so many people feel connected to the 'gaming scene' through the magazine. While I come for the comics, your articles are like a pulse on the larger gaming community.
I really enjoyed Derek White's Op-Ed in #268 and feel that it is worthwhile to share with a larger audience. I sent an e-mail request to Derek White moments ago asking asking if that might be something that I could do - I posted on theRPGsite to discuss the article and one of the first requests was to see it in whole to comment.
I will admit that theRPGsite is generally hostile to requests to make gaming more accessible - it's probably the main reason I post there. I think that the posters there are often hostile to the idea that maybe they don't do enough to make gaming fun for as wide an audience as possible, and I think they tend to forget that there are real people who'd love to sling dice but have real obstacles that they might not be able to overcome on their own.
In some ways, Mr. White's article reminded me of the story you shared around accessible video games for your daughter. My heart broke for you and for Barbara when you lost her 8 years ago. I can only imagine that it is a painful subject and don't bring it up lightly.
When you brought up Amber's love of gaming and the desire to see accommodation from the game publishers, that may have been the first time that I really thought about the ways gaming had contributed to my life, my friendships, and my happiness, and what it would have meant if I couldn't have been a part of that. While everyone has challenges and setbacks, I have been truly blessed, and it is my sincere hope that others will spend some time imagining how their lives might have been different and how they might appreciate some kindness from the larger gaming community.
Toward that end, I was wondering if you would publish Derek White's article or permit me to transcribe it to the following discussion forum:
Game on!
DeadDMWalking
Thanks for your inquiry, DM. By the time this sees print, you should find a downloadable pdf of the article on our website at //www.kenzerco.com. We invite readers to share it with others. -- Jolly
"I think that the posters there are often hostile to the idea that maybe they don't do enough to make gaming fun for as wide an audience as possible"
Well I do lots to make gaming fun for as wide an audience as possible, so yeah I'd be hostile to that idea!
I'm not hostile... I'm just interested in changing my games or how I play to suit anyone else's taste. Been doing it that way for over 30yrs, so if it 'aint broke and all.
Also, why do you even need to make a game 'more accessible'? Change it to suit your group, add in (or take out) whatever you want.
And if you're really pissed that something isn't in a game. Just write your own, like everyone else does. The only real barrier in gaming, is a mental one, that people put up themselves.
You can be a full blown weretranny in full kit and play at my table, no bully, but when you start whining that the game world is too white or not inclusive or where are the gay or tranny rulers/villains/tavern keepers i'm probably going to pistol whip you to death and sell your organs on the korean version of craigslist.
I feel like I'm opening a Hellraiser puzzle box but is something more meant by "accessible" than just easy to use?
I only read kodt for the comics. The rest of the magazine is lame so I just buy the bundles of trouble versions. And even the comics get pretty weak after around #150 or so. The stores I frequented quit selling it years ago which makes me wonder how it continues to be a thing.
So now it's being "hostile" if you just play with your friends and don't actively seek out gay black female Muslim quadriplegics with Downs Syndrome to join in.
I feel like gaming should be available to everyone.
And most everyone agrees.
Anyone can buy a game, learn it, prepare, and GM. It's not that hard to find players, either, if you put a little thought and effort into it--though it helps to just run a fun game first, last, and only, instead of being on a real-life crusade (of any type). So gaming is available to everyone.
Don't want to run a game of the type you prefer? Can't find players to play the kind of game that you prefer? Complaining about people not finding a game? Can't find another GM to do all the work and run exactly what you want for you? I think I know where the problem started. It's this little thing called the common denominator.
I only discriminate against assholes. A core principal that has served me well.
Everyone else is welcome.
It's so interesting for me to read stuff like that and discover that I've been hostile to my own participation in gaming since 1995. Fuck all you RPGSite Nazis, I can oppress myself just fine without your help, god damnit.
Quote from: The Exploited.;1131310I only discriminate against assholes. A core principal that has served me well.
Everyone else is welcome.
Cheers to that
Quote from: Shasarak;1131277I was reading the Knights of the Dinner Table Issue 271 and I found an interesting reference to TheRpgSite, which I present without comment:
Oh noes! People on theRPGsite don't agree with me! Therefore they're "hostile" to accessible gaming!
What a jackass.
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131290I feel like I'm opening a Hellraiser puzzle box but is something more meant by "accessible" than just easy to use?
It means that you're supposed to alter the entire game mechanically and on its presentation to suit a bunch of imaginary people cuz people purporting to speak for every whamen and minority on Earth declared that the game was alienating to them, and if you don't accept that blindly and without question then obviously you're just a racist POS that just wants to keep women and minorities out of gaming cuz you want it to be a white male only space.
Is anyone surprised it was deadDMwalking that posted this shit? I am not as that fucker is sjw snake so of course he is going to bad mouth the site.
I love the representation found in the original Chicago by Night and Ed Greenwood went out of his way to do this for Forgotten Realms 1st Edition. Shadow Run was all about diverse minorities versus the ManTM. I'm not sure where they are looking for greater representation among games.
Mind you, I loved the revived Masks of Nyarlathotep with its updates.
'Hostile to requests to make gaming more accessible' can mean anything from "Condescends to and dismisses any who don't hold Gygaxian AD&D 1E to be the perfect game" (yes, these folks still exist, although I've only seen them on Twitter lately--no such gamers seem to be hanging around here) to "Doesn't see a reason to change up their beloved games without real evidence of a pressing need" to "Is a full-on progressive but is somewhat hesitant to burn an American flag, trample a crucifix, and bow down in worship before the All-Devouring Wyrm of Many Colors and of None." :)
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131290I feel like I'm opening a Hellraiser puzzle box but is something more meant by "accessible" than just easy to use?
Its the SJW idea if "accessible". Much like the SJW idea of "misappropriation" and the SJW idea of "Racist" "Sexist" and pretty much anything else they hallucinate is "problematic" today.
They mean accessible as in forced "inclusiveness". As in if they had their way every table would have a "woman" a "minority" a "homosexual" and whatever else they are "defending" today. Optimally there should be no straight white males at the table because they are all "problematic sexist nazis".
Its not enough to just be open and welcoming to anyone interested in playing that isnt obviously a nut case. Something that has been there from the get go but they love to claim never was. No. This has to be in your face, practically at gunpoint, force you to be "inclusive" and then bitch about what a horrible monster you are for resisting their ass backwards cartoon idea of what anything means. See all those things in quotes? Depending on their current hallucination, those words can, and often do, mean anything but what they should. Or they are trying to force it on everyone in such a ham handed way that it does more damage than good.
Its fake.
Some of us have been around to see two prior iterations of this and know its a sham and that invariably all it does is generate resentment and resistance because they never actually do anything positive. Oh they will claim they have. But it is allways the non-SJWs going out there and making a real difference.
Quote from: Omega;1131328Its the SJW idea if "accessible". Much like the SJW idea of "misappropriation" and the SJW idea of "Racist" "Sexist" and pretty much anything else they hallucinate is "problematic" today.
They mean accessible as in forced "inclusiveness". As in if they had their way every table would have a "woman" a "minority" a "homosexual" and whatever else they are "defending" today. Optimally there should be no straight white males at the table because they are all "problematic sexist nazis".
Its not enough to just be open and welcoming to anyone interested in playing that isnt obviously a nut case. Something that has been there from the get go but they love to claim never was. No. This has to be in your face, practically at gunpoint, force you to be "inclusive" and then bitch about what a horrible monster you are for resisting their ass backwards cartoon idea of what anything means. See all those things in quotes? Depending on their current hallucination, those words can, and often do, mean anything but what they should. Or they are trying to force it on everyone in such a ham handed way that it does more damage than good.
Its fake.
Some of us have been around to see two prior iterations of this and know its a sham and that invariably all it does is generate resentment and resistance because they never actually do anything positive. Oh they will claim they have. But it is allways the non-SJWs going out there and making a real difference.
SJWs hate you and want you dead, preferably at their hands. Failing that, they want you to be at least as miserable as they are, if not more so; again at their hands.
Understand this, and you will understand all things SJW.
Some of them sure do. The rest are just happy with brainwashing everyone into believing their hallucinations are reality.
We are living the low-tech version of d20 Gamma Worlds pre-collapse ideology wars.
Quote from: Snowman0147;1131323Is anyone surprised it was deadDMwalking that posted this shit? I am not as that fucker is sjw snake so of course he is going to bad mouth the site.
I'm not. This is a "Go big or go home" moment for him.
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131303I feel like gaming should be available to everyone.
And most everyone agrees.
Agreed, but I think deadDMwalking is using "making gaming more accessible" as a more insidious euphemism for "shoehorning extremist politics into the hobby"
He's a commie punk and not any different from the extremist scum on RPG.net
As someone who is disabled, "queer" (tbh, I hate that term), and a religious minority as well, I am glad to have The RPG Site as a community, and I wish the gaming hobby would listen to us more than the fuckers at RPG.net or Onyx Path Forums.
Ideally, the gaming hobby should actually be about games and not the "everything is political" agenda that is being pushed.
But at the same time, if we lived a perfect world, the 1970's would have ended with disco surviving and punk dying instead.
Well clearly RPGsite is full of too many wrongthinking unconverted that have knee-issues that simply have a hard time bending. One would think DeadDMwalking and his ilk would be more.... sensitive... to those of us "less able" than these others of weaker intestinal disposition.
Does this mean we're famous now?
LOL. I didn't even know KoDT was still in print.
As for DeadDMwalking, and everyone else, their free speech is always welcome here.
As for autism and gaming...
1) I have zero respect or care for the "online autism" clowns and losers who masturbate about "being on the spectrum". It's become yet another creepy ass fetish on social media.
2) As an ex-special education teacher, I had gaming groups with students with all sorts of actual disabilities, including real deal autism, and they all had a grand time gaming. Several of the kids went to conventions too...and had a good time. One dad who was really skeptical about bringing his autistic son to a convention told me afterward he's been so deep in "autism world" that he had forgotten how much "regular kids" are nutty little spaz monsters.
3) I've gamed with many adults at conventions with autism. A few announced it, most didn't, I never remember any being a real problem player. A few were a bit OCD about rules, and where that's not great when I'm running a RPG fast and loose, it's a boon when playing 40k minis.
4) My secret to GMing at cons with autistic players? I use my super secret kung fu technique called "giving them my undivided attention during their turn". AKA, what I do with all my other players.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1131354Does this mean we're famous now?
LOL. I didn't even know KoDT was still in print.
As for DeadDMwalking, and everyone else, their free speech is always welcome here.
As for autism and gaming...
1) I have zero respect or care for the "online autism" clowns and losers who masturbate about "being on the spectrum". It's become yet another creepy ass fetish on social media.
2) As an ex-special education teacher, I had gaming groups with students with all sorts of actual disabilities, including real deal autism, and they all had a grand time gaming. Several of the kids went to conventions too...and had a good time. One dad who was really skeptical about bringing his autistic son to a convention told me afterward he's been so deep in "autism world" that he had forgotten how much "regular kids" are nutty little spaz monsters.
3) I've gamed with many adults at conventions with autism. A few announced it, most didn't, I never remember any being a real problem player. A few were a bit OCD about rules, and where that's not great when I'm running a RPG fast and loose, it's a boon when playing 40k minis.
4) My secret to GMing at cons with autistic players? I use my super secret kung fu technique called "giving them my undivided attention during their turn". AKA, what I do with all my other players.
Agreed on all four of these points.
I love KODT magazine.
This is notably just a letter to them. I've been published there a few times.
Just write to them and they'll print it.
Quote from: tenbones;1131342Well clearly RPGsite is full of too many wrongthinking unconverted that have knee-issues that simply have a hard time bending.
I know, right? In my advanced age I also have trouble bowing my head at every conceivably opportune moment. Must be the water I'm drinking ...or something.
Quote from: The Exploited.;1131310I only discriminate against assholes. A core principal that has served me well.
Everyone else is welcome.
Damn dude, why you gotta discriminate against your peers here? I'd be fun at your table too you know!
I fully admit to not being inclusive to assholes, idiots and lunatics.
I'd actually welcome a gov issued lesbian parapalegic black jewish hindu bard for every session, for me, it isn't about who is setting at my table. My hackles get raised when they start dicking with my game, insisting i have to put such characters in the game world, dammit, make your pc that and put it in the world, i am not going to make a third of arthurs court transexuals just for pandering purposes or change how i portray less civilized people or races in the game world. I am not obligated to include quests to dismantle systems of oppression or what have you in the game world. I am not going to have the people of salem burning witches while also having pride parades. I'm not going to portray a progressive world were euro derived peoples check their privilege and believe monsters are just misunderstood victims of colonial oppression.
Not sure how "not agreeing with you" or " won't do what we're told" or "see things differently but love everyone anyways" = "hostile to making games more accessible" but FUCK if conversation these days hasn't got confusing as hell.
Say what you mean and mean what you say.
I have yet to see any posts here on the site that are racist, exclusionary, or hostile, to people having fun playing games. It's a bunch of bullshit by people who want ultimate control.
Of course, it does no good protesting the smear campaign. If you argue? You're just an apologist. Free thinking is treason. You must support the party line or you will be cancelled. Do what you're told, or face the consequences.
It's fucking exhausting.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1131354As for DeadDMwalking, and everyone else, their free speech is always welcome here.
Thing is while you and I respect free speech the fact is people like deadDMwalking don't. They are a insidious breed that will use whatever advantage they can get in order to remove our freedom of speech. It is a cancer.
Quote from: Snowman0147;1131388Thing is while you and I respect free speech the fact is people like deadDMwalking don't. They are a insidious breed that will use whatever advantage they can get in order to remove our freedom of speech. It is a cancer.
I fully agree with you.
BUT...that's the double edge of freedom of speech. We who love free speech must defend the right to free speech for ALL...including those who would seek to destroy our rights. We must defend the speech we hate.
And yeah, that sucks.
deadDMwalking is full of shit, quelle surprise.
KoDT is a good comic, although I must say I liked it better when it was just one or two pages of insanity in Dragon magazine and there was no continuing storyline. Still, it has provided me with many laughs over the years and I fully intend to keep reading it as long as it's published.
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131357This is notably just a letter to them. I've been published there a few times.
Just write to them and they'll print it.
This btw is borderline revolutionary in CURRENT_YEAR when 99% of sites, magazines etc. will either disallow commenting or censor the shit out of it.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1131401I fully agree with you.
BUT...that's the double edge of freedom of speech. We who love free speech must defend the right to free speech for ALL...including those who would seek to destroy our rights. We must defend the speech we hate.
And yeah, that sucks.
I used to be all about the "I may not agree with what you say but will defend your right to say it." I then realized that all of the bigots talking about free speech as their right were utterly uninterested in extending that same right to people talking about the rights of minorities, homophobia, or contradicting their blatant lies about whatever it was that was pissing them off this week. Because they were bigots, assholes who didn't care about the fundamental principles of honest discourse. They just wanted to win. They also wanted to shut down anyone who didn't agree with them.
I also note a bunch of assholes don't seem to understand what free speech is. It means you can't be arrested for saying something. It doesn't mean that you can go on a racist tirade on a corporate or privately owned forum then not get your ass booted. Its free speech to evict your ass from their electric property.
"No silence, no service."
"All those bigots just want to shut down people who don't agree with them, so those darn bigots must be shut down"
And so the wheel turns and we all become a little stupider.
Quote from: AmazingOnionMan;1131417"All those bigots just want to shut down people who don't agree with them, so those darn bigots must be shut down"
And so the wheel turns and we all become a little stupider.
And the cancer grows. Man Raging Golden Eagle is right. We do need to gatekeep out the sjw trash.
Quote from: AmazingOnionMan;1131417"All those bigots just want to shut down people who don't agree with them, so those darn bigots must be shut down"
And so the wheel turns and we all become a little stupider.
That's essentially my point, it argues that bigotry has a place in the intellectual discourse. In fact, shutting down stupid is actually good because stupid people need to be told that they're stupid and that stupidity is not adding shit.
Dave: Listen, [X] people are a drain on America's economy.
Me: You're an idiot.
Dave: I'm exercising my free speech.
Me: Still an idiot. Nothing you're adding is worthwhile. Just shut up.
Dave: America is losing out on debate.
Me: No need to debate stupid.
Quote from: Snowman0147;1131418And the cancer grows. Man Raging Golden Eagle is right. We do need to gatekeep out the sjw trash.
*harnesses irony points to power small city*
CTPhipps I don't give a flying fuck what your race, sex, sexuality, or whatever is. SJWs are some of the most closeted bigots I had ever seen. Seriously I rather deal with a up to my face KKK member because at least he is honest with his bullsit. SJWs are too slimy to be honest, but they project this shit out on to others.
Ah who the fuck I am talking to? Your fucking okay with working for Rich Thomas who is known for fucking over his freelancers. Seriously does that shit even bother you?
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131420Dave: Listen, [X] people are a drain on America's economy.
Me: You're an idiot.
Dave: I'm exercising my free speech.
Me: Still an idiot. Nothing you're adding is worthwhile. Just shut up.
Dave: America is losing out on debate.
Me: No need to debate stupid.
And then you google the definition of "bigot"..
Quote from: Snowman0147;1131422CTPhipps I don't give a flying fuck what your race, sex, sexuality, or whatever is. SJWs are some of the most closeted bigots I had ever seen. Seriously I rather deal with a up to my face KKK member because at least he is honest with his bullsit. SJWs are too slimy to be honest, but they project this shit out on to others.
Ah who the fuck I am talking to? Your fucking okay with working for Rich Thomas who is known for fucking over his freelancers. Seriously does that shit even bother you?
I admit, I don't believe social justice warriors exist. There's no group of them, it's just a perjorative like idiot.
Yes, there's a lot of idiots out there but I don't think they are a group like the Illuminati. Holding torch lit ceremonies talking about how Kitana needs to wear pants.
Quote from: AmazingOnionMan;1131423And then you google the definition of "bigot"..
I am fully okay with being a bigot against bigots. As said earlier, "I only discriminate against assholes."
It's not hard.
Hating Nazis is different from hating Jews. The people involved change the context.
Anyway, the RPGsite is not a secret den of bigots so it's a pointless argument anyway.
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131424I am fully okay with being a bigot against bigots.
Well, good luck with that then.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1131369I fully admit to not being inclusive to assholes, idiots and lunatics.
If I adopted this policy I wouldn't have any players. :)
On the general subject I'll sit down with almost anyone to play rpg's, but I object to being told what should and shouldn't be in them.
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131420That's essentially my point, it argues that bigotry has a place in the intellectual discourse. In fact, shutting down stupid is actually good because stupid people need to be told that they're stupid and that stupidity is not adding shit.
Dave: Listen, [X] people are a drain on America's economy.
Me: You're an idiot.
Dave: I'm exercising my free speech.
Me: Still an idiot. Nothing you're adding is worthwhile. Just shut up.
Dave: America is losing out on debate.
Me: No need to debate stupid.
*harnesses irony points to power small city*
Possibly the worst example ever because people who exist in the welfare state are, by definition, a drain on the economy. Literally take resources and provide none in return. The fact that you automatically assume ANY value of X = idiot just proves you don't want to even listen to an argument, regardless of merit.
Quote from: Brad;1131429Possibly the worst example ever because people who exist in the welfare state are, by definition, a drain on the economy. Literally take resources and provide none in return. The fact that you automatically assume ANY value of X = idiot just proves you don't want to even listen to an argument, regardless of merit.
Already you've failed basic argument because I never said welfare, I said [X] people.
Which already says you mentally filled in X box.
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131432Already you've failed basic argument because I never said welfare, I said [X] people.
Which already says you filled in X box.
Which could mean anything. Like welfare people, neo liberal people, or even neo conservative people.
Quote from: Snowman0147;1131433Which could mean anything. Like welfare people, neo liberal people, or even neo conservative people.
Yeah, that's the point. The entire argument basically begins with someone wanting to shit on a group and bait people into arguing.
I have strong opinions on hating the hate groups, Neo-Confederates, and white supremacist gangs in my area. However, if I walk into an RPG site to start talking shit about them just to get a rise out of people them I'm not benefiting anyone.
Which plays into the irony of "free speech" that is the basis of my point. A lot of the time it's not actually about free speech but wanting a platform for your views and private pages [like the RPGsite] don't have to serve as a venue for it.
Shut it the fuck down.
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131434Yeah, that's the point. The entire argument basically begins with someone wanting to shit on a group and bait people into arguing.
I have strong opinions on hating the hate groups, Neo-Confederates, and white supremacist gangs in my area. However, if I walk into an RPG site to start talking shit about them just to get a rise out of people them I'm not benefiting anyone.
Which plays into the irony of "free speech" that is the basis of my point. A lot of the time it's not actually about free speech but wanting a platform for your views and private pages [like the RPGsite] don't have to serve as a venue for it.
Shut it the fuck down.
If you genuinely believe this, please give this talk a listen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z2uzEM0ugY
The crux of the point that I hope you'll consider is "who decides" and "to whom do you want to cede the right to deny you the right to listen".
Actual bigotry is easy to answer to its face. As you say, it's stupid, and poorly informed. Dealing with others denying you information is harder to cope with, since you can't know what you're being denied.
For the purpose of the topic, I'm glad that TheRPGSite is a place where we can openly argue over whether forces in the industry pushing for this goal or that goal are actually productively working towards their goal or not, whether the side-effects/collateral damage are worth it, and whether the goal even makes sense.
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131432Already you've failed basic argument because I never said welfare, I said [X] people.
Which already says you mentally filled in X box.
I filled in the X box with a value that makes your example fall flat. Your inherent biases are shining through.
"X" = "Welfare recipient"
Quote from: Spinachcat;1131401I fully agree with you.
BUT...that's the double edge of freedom of speech. We who love free speech must defend the right to free speech for ALL...including those who would seek to destroy our rights. We must defend the speech we hate.
And yeah, that sucks.
I agree that people like deadDMwalking should get their say. In fact, I see it as a positive, because the more he talks the more idiotic he appears. However, we should draw the line at people like him being in charge of who gets to speak. By extension, that includes "who gets hired". Because that is how the far left takes over the institutions from "liberals"--one idiot at a time being put in a position of power. Pretty soon, your speech is "violence" and their violence is "speech". That's a recipe for ending civilization.
Barbarians can visit. They don't get to set the rules until they show they can be civilized. Otherwise, we don't have civilization.
Quote from: Brad;1131439I filled in the X box with a value that makes your example fall flat. Your inherent biases are shining through.
"X" = "Welfare recipient"
You don't understand the argument [Given that I flat out said NAZIS would not be a great example] and it's kind of fucked up the example you chose. So, yeah, I'll just drop this conversation point. Yay you.
Peace out folks, good to talk with ya.
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131444You don't understand the argument [Given that I flat out said NAZIS would not be a great example] and it's kind of fucked up the example you chose. So, yeah, I'll just drop this conversation point. Yay you.
Peace out folks, good to talk with ya.
I understand the argument very well. You want to discriminate against people who say things you don't like.
Quote from: Brad;1131446I understand the argument very well. You want to discriminate against people who say things you don't like.
He doesn't understand how tact works. I can self-censor in a particular environment, at a particular time (e.g. avoid certain political topics at Thanksgiving dinner) to be tactful. I can even advocate, on the basis of tact, that similar considerations maybe should enter into when and how other people self-censor. If enough people agree with me on a particular point, thus are born "manners". The penalty for breaking manners is to be thought unmannerly--which in wide array of circumstances is not that big a deal.
It is a huge leap from "manners" to "rules". Manners are guidelines for how to be tactful that people can try to follow when they aren't naturally tactful. Given the environment here, I think most of can relate to that. When rules get imposed under the guise of "manners" (or worse, legally), then you have class distinctions and busybodies deciding for you when and how you can self-censor (all the time on anything that they think is a problem). If you can't say it, it is only a tiny leap from there to "aren't allowed to even think it." Ergo, thought police. You are excommunicated from society. History shows that people that are excommunicated do not have a "polite" answer to that.
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131424I am fully okay with being a bigot against bigots. As said earlier, "I only discriminate against assholes."
The problem is terms like bigot and Nazi have become pejoratives like SJW, and have lost their meaning.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1131453The problem is terms like bigot and Nazi have become pejoratives like SJW, and have lost their meaning.
I admit it's frustrating as fuck to discuss the Nazis in my area and idiots think I mean it figuratively or, "people I don't like." No, I mean the people who wave the red and black flag while shooting black people at my local Kroger (which happened two years ago).
https://www.courier-journal.com/story/opinion/2018/11/09/kroger-shooting-white-people-must-stand-against-racism/1943985002/
Only idiots think there aren't people who self-identify as Nazis and want a race war.
ACTUAL Nazis.
Its fucking frustrating with my "own" side as they don't seem to realize calling the other side that misses devaluing the term and danger. When shit like this happens in your backyard and you know the white supremacist gangs, you wonder what kind of coddled entitled bullshit world these people live in.
Edit:
I mean, save it for the actual crazies like the guy who lynched a mannequin in front of Andy Beshear (our governor) while saying he was next.
https://www.courier-journal.com/story/opinion/2020/05/26/andy-beshear-fine-after-symbolic-lynching-white-supremacists/5260492002/
The words Nazi and Bigot are just buzzwords that get thrown around invariably to shut people up. Nazi in particular is the name of a group that hasn't been around in three quarters of a century and almost no one alive today has ever confronted actual real Nazis--and those that did are so old, half of them may kick the bucket by the time I'm done writing this post--yet the specter of them still gets used to justify silencing people that often haven't even been proven to be actual bigots. They're just declared to be so by idiots who can't argue points, and often only heard what these "Nazis" supposedly said from third hand sources peddling rumors.
And if you press them for details they can NEVER provide a single actual example of what these supposed Nazis said that was "bigoted", yet they feel perfectly content in having them thrown out of online platforms that have become the public square of the Information Age, where all the real political discussions are made.
Every time I hear the words "Nazi" and "Bigot" my eyes just glaze over and I assume that the person using them has absolutely NO interest in discussing actual points--just declaring who gets to speak in civil society and who should rightfully get summarily shut down, the way actual bigots used to do around a century ago.
Quote from: VisionStorm;1131464The words Nazi and Bigot are just buzzwords that get thrown around invariably to shut people up.
Yeah, this is the stuff that pisses me off.
Too often it's from people who don't apparently live in the real world where people have to deal with real people who will kill you if you piss them off or are the wrong skin color/gay. Not saying you in particular but I've dealt with plenty of people who seriously think modern Nazism is an ideology that exists only in the fever dreams of Leftists. Like communist apologists in the 70s academia, it's born from people who don't want to acknowledge real killers and oppressors or extremists in their midst.
Visit Appalachia and see what our criminals and militias look like.
Or hell, just look at the links I posted.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/29/neo-nazi-rally-pikeville-kentucky-anti-fascist
Pikeville is about 20 minutes drive from my house, FYI.
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131420Dave: Listen, [X] people are a drain on America's economy.
I agree with Dave. BTW, He was referring to lawyers. ;-)
Quote from: DocJones;1131472I agree with Dave. BTW, He was referring to lawyers. ;-)
I thought it was x = public sector employees...
Quote from: DocJones;1131472I agree with Dave. BTW, He was referring to lawyers. ;-)
Dave was in fact referring to the Corpse-Aliens of They Live.
(https://news.toyark.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2019/11/They-Live-NECA-Released-004-928x483.jpg)
And that's just wrong. They are the job creators.
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131465Or hell, just look at the links I posted.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/29/neo-nazi-rally-pikeville-kentucky-anti-fascist
Pikeville is about 20 minutes drive from my house, FYI.
Actually what is amusing about this is that "10 hate groups" from all over the country fit in a "20 car caravan" and had a meet in a tent I would estimate held around 60 chairs. It's a truly pathetic turnout for any groups event. They are pathetic and just as pathetic is the hand-wringing over it. It's nearly as pathetic as the concern over the activities of the Westboro Baptist church with only 17 active members.
There will always be a tiny amount of idiots and to inflate a tiny amount of idiots into some huge movement is just as retarded as the few retards at this gathering.
Quote from: DocJones;1131479Actually what is amusing about this is that "10 hate groups" from all over the country fit in a "20 car caravan" and had a meet in a tent I would estimate held around 60 chairs. It's a truly pathetic turnout for any groups event. They are pathetic and just as pathetic is the hand-wringing over it. It's nearly as pathetic as the concern over the activities of the Westboro Baptist church with only 17 active members.
There will always be a tiny amount of idiots and to inflate a tiny amount of idiots into some huge movement is just as retarded as the few retards at this gathering.
The Westboro Baptist Church is a joke until it's your kid that they're crashing the funeral of. The guys who openly identify themselves as Nazis, Neo-Confederates, Neo-Klan, and Christian Identity Movement are not the majority. I believe in Democracy and that fails if I ever believed the majority of people aren't fundamentally good. However, there's enough of them collectively that they can intimidate and terrorize regular people.
Honestly, the majority of the actual white power movements in my area are less concerned with political activism than running the meth and opioid trades but that doesn't mean they don't follow the ideology. It's not dress up and it just takes one asshole with a gun to go on a killing spree. The guy who shot those two people in my Kroger was going to kill a church's worth of people but fucked up and decided to settle for the next black people he saw.
Quote from: Brad;1131302So now it's being "hostile" if you just play with your friends and don't actively seek out gay black female Muslim quadriplegics with Downs Syndrome to join in.
Shit, that's just classic!!!
The Westboro Baptist Church is run by committed leftists. Though admittedly they are grifters first, leftists only a close second.
Which you'd know if you bothered to do any research beyond reading your talking points.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1131486The Westboro Baptist Church is run by committed leftists. Though admittedly they are grifters first, leftists only a close second.
Which you'd know if you bothered to do any research beyond reading your talking points.
I'm sorry, how far up your own DM screen do you have to be to actually care about Right vs. Left when discussing The WBBC and Nazis?
If you defend either, you're a piece of shit.
Doesn't matter if you're right or left.
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131487I'm sorry, how far up your own DM screen do you have to be to actually care about Right vs. Left when discussing The WBBC and Nazis?
If you defend either, you're a piece of shit.
Doesn't matter if you're right or left.
Listen, moron. I'm not going to keep playing the divert game with you. I've got better things to do with my time. So I'll say this and you can go back to your diversions all you want without any interference from me for awhile: No one was defending either Westboro or Nazi. You were trying to stick some non-Nazi's with the Nazi label with a little tap dancing and the isolated few real Nazis, and slip in a stick of "Westboro" as being part of the "the right" by way of a free pass in logic and truth. I'm calling you out for being a lying piece of shit. That's all.
Don't mistake me talking to others about how big a piece of shit you are as talking to you.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1131494Listen, moron. I'm not going to keep playing the divert game with you. I've got better things to do with my time. So I'll say this and you can go back to your diversions all you want without any interference from me for awhile: No one was defending either Westboro or Nazi. You were trying to stick some non-Nazi's with the Nazi label with a little tap dancing and the isolated few real Nazis, and slip in a stick of "Westboro" as being part of the "the right" by way of a free pass in logic and truth. I'm calling you out for being a lying piece of shit. That's all.
Don't mistake me talking to others about how big a piece of shit you are as talking to you.
Are you reading what I'm saying?
You keep saying diverting when the ****ing point is WHEN I REFER TO NAZIS, I MEAN NAZIS. I don't mean people I disagree with on the internet, I don't mean "bad people", I don't mean Right Wingers [which is fucking stupid--my great uncle was a lifelong republican who fought in the Battle of the Bulge, both my grandfathers also fought in WW2], and I don't mean Martians. I mean Nazis. People who identify as National Socialist white supremacists and wear their iconography or sell it and practice their beliefs.
They're everywhere in Kentucky. They only just banned their booths at the Kentucky state fair the year before last.
https://www.wlky.com/article/kentucky-state-fair-board-unanimously-bans-sale-of-nazi-swastika-items/25134152
I'm also going to call BS on your argument because
I wasn't the one who brought up the WBC. Which I'm going to assume you knew since it was the post above mine that mentioned them.
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131496They're everywhere in Kentucky. They only just banned their booths at the Kentucky state fair the year before last.
https://www.wlky.com/article/kentucky-state-fair-board-unanimously-bans-sale-of-nazi-swastika-items/25134152
This is stupid. And to bring it back on topic...
It's like banning discussion of MyFarog here. Sure there might well be 1 or 2 fans, but it ain't going to cause anyone to start running neo-nazi games or to become neo-nazis.
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131496I'm also going to call BS on your argument because I wasn't the one who brought up the WBC. Which I'm going to assume you knew since it was the post above mine that mentioned them.
I surely did, but in the context of it's a tiny group of annoying people whose infamy is far far beyond their influence, which is negligible (not whether they were left, right, up or down).
And of course the courts here have defended their free speech rights.
They might also make for a pretty cool Hunter organization with their "God hates Vampyres" signs.
Quote from: DocJones;1131499This is stupid. And to bring it back on topic...
It's like banning discussion of MyFarog here. Sure there might well be 1 or 2 fans, but it ain't going to cause anyone to start running neo-nazi games or to become neo-nazis.
I surely did, but in the context of it's a tiny group of annoying people whose infamy is far far beyond their influence, which is negligible (not whether they were left, right, up or down).
And of course the courts here have defended their free speech rights.
They might also make for a pretty cool Hunter organization with their "God hates Vampyres" signs.
Yeah, the point of what I was saying is, "The WBC *IS* small. However, it can still fuck up your day." In the context of, "Nazis aren't the majority. They're an extremist minority. They're just a real big problem in my area."
And THAT was brought up from me
agreeing with the fact no one should ever call someone a Nazi unless they're actually Nazis. When I bring them up, I mean actual Nazis.
Which seems confusing to some people. They seem to think I'm trying to do a hand trick or mind-fuck here versus me saying, "No, when you mention Nazis. You better mean real Nazis."
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131465Yeah, this is the stuff that pisses me off.
Too often it's from people who don't apparently live in the real world where people have to deal with real people who will kill you if you piss them off or are the wrong skin color/gay. Not saying you in particular but I've dealt with plenty of people who seriously think modern Nazism is an ideology that exists only in the fever dreams of Leftists. Like communist apologists in the 70s academia, it's born from people who don't want to acknowledge real killers and oppressors or extremists in their midst.
The problem that I see is that the people who you "think" want to kill you because you are [X] are statistically not the people most likely to kill you for being [X].
Its like being killed by the Police, for example. Everyone "knows" that the Police like to kill people (second most liked activity behind eating donuts) but statistically which [X] are they most likely to kill given a choice?
Quote from: Shasarak;1131511The problem that I see is that the people who you "think" want to kill you because you are [X] are statistically not the people most likely to kill you for being [X].
Its like being killed by the Police, for example. Everyone "knows" that the Police like to kill people (second most liked activity behind eating donuts) but statistically which [X] are they most likely to kill given a choice?
Not to cut this conversation point off at the source but you realize the point was, "leave your politics at the door and just enjoy gaming", right?
A private forum about gaming should be about mutual respect and enjoyment of the hobby.
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131496WHEN I REFER TO NAZIS, I MEAN NAZIS. I don't mean people I disagree with on the internet, I don't mean "bad people", I don't mean Right Wingers [which is fucking stupid--my great uncle was a lifelong republican who fought in the Battle of the Bulge, both my grandfathers also fought in WW2], and I don't mean Martians. I mean Nazis. People who identify as National Socialist white supremacists and wear their iconography or sell it and practice their beliefs.
They're everywhere in Kentucky. They only just banned their booths at the Kentucky state fair the year before last.
https://www.wlky.com/article/kentucky-state-fair-board-unanimously-bans-sale-of-nazi-swastika-items/25134152
Quote from: DocJones;1131499This is stupid. And to bring it back on topic...
It's like banning discussion of MyFarog here. Sure there might well be 1 or 2 fans, but it ain't going to cause anyone to start running neo-nazi games or to become neo-nazis.
CTPhipps - I disagree with you on the free speech point, but I think you've been arguing in good faith and haven't been misusing the term nazi. Personally, I only use nazi to describe someone who openly identifies as a nazi. I think name-calling is a weak, and nazi has been misused for ages. Godwin's Law was expressed as such in 1990, and the principle had already been true for a while.
The issue with free speech is: Does banning nazi iconography and speech actually work to reduce the number of nazis and neonazis? I don't see any evidence that it does. I think driving neo-nazis underground just let's them flourish and reinforces their narrative of being oppressed. They should be opposed, but not banned, IMO. From what I read of white supremacy, it flourishes in the shadows.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11148558-my-life-after-hate
Quote from: jhkim;1131514CTPhipps - I disagree with you on the free speech point, but I think you've been arguing in good faith and haven't been misusing the term nazi. Personally, I only use nazi to describe someone who openly identifies as a nazi. I think name-calling is a weak, and nazi has been misused for ages. Godwin's Law was expressed as such in 1990, and the principle had already been true for a while.
The issue with free speech is: Does banning nazi iconography and speech actually work to reduce the number of nazis and neonazis? I don't see any evidence that it does. I think driving neo-nazis underground just let's them flourish and reinforces their narrative of being oppressed. They should be opposed, but not banned, IMO. From what I read of white supremacy, it flourishes in the shadows.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11148558-my-life-after-hate
Thanks,
I think the most effective take against white supremacy that I ever heard of was when the Superman Radio Show (at the time one of the most popular radio programs in the world--when television didnd't exist) had Superman take on the Ku Klux Klan.
https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/23157/how-superman-defeated-ku-klux-klan
As the storyline progressed, the shows exposed many of the KKK's most guarded secrets. By revealing everything from code words to rituals, the program completely stripped the Klan of its mystique. Within two weeks of the broadcast, KKK recruitment was down to zero. And by 1948, people were showing up to Klan rallies just to mock them.So I believe in the power of art to take an actual blow against terrible ideas and beliefs. Art can be a powerful force in this world. I don't know if banning Nazi paraphenalia from a State Fair will actually do much to kill the idea but I think it can do a job of establishing that the Fair doesn't ENDORSE THEM. The Neo-Nazis in Kentucky love claiming they're the secret majority and people would side with them if they were honest.
By showing up against them and refusing to serve them/help them, you make it clear polite society doesn't tolerate their shit.
YMMV.
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131512Not to cut this conversation point off at the source but you realize the point was, "leave your politics at the door and just enjoy gaming", right?
A private forum about gaming should be about mutual respect and enjoyment of the hobby.
Have any of these [X]s that you are worried about actually killed anyone? We all know that deep down they want to, but I mean have they actually done it?
Look at the murder statistics, you are much more likely to be killed by someone you know then by a random member of [X]
Quote from: Shasarak;1131520Have any of these [X]s that you are worried about actually killed anyone? We all know that deep down they want to, but I mean have they actually done it?
Look at the murder statistics, you are much more likely to be killed by someone you know then by a random member of [X]
Listen man, you can't trust one-legged Siberian accountants.
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131521Listen man, you can't trust one-legged Siberian accountants.
Right, which is why when they come on line talking about how great MMT is the answer is not to be a dork and say "I am not talking to bigots, you bigot" it is to use your free speech to explain that free money never works.
Quote from: Shasarak;1131523Right, which is why when they come on line talking about how great MMT is the answer is not to be a dork and say "I am not talking to bigots, you bigot" it is to use your free speech to explain that free money never works.
[explains socio-economic position at length]
[Its invisible because this is a game forum]
I don't post here much but I do read it often. I'm glad that it's a bit more freewheeling even if it does tend to degenerate into these kinds of conversations.
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131424I am fully okay with being a bigot against bigots. As said earlier, "I only discriminate against assholes."
It's not hard.
Hating Nazis is different from hating Jews. The people involved change the context
Pretty sure that's what they say that TBP right before you're found to be 'not a good fit for the forum.' Blazing Saddles, or your Superman takes on the Klan reference later, is a better way to handle it rather than shutting down speech.
Quote from: CTPhippsToo often it's from people who don't apparently live in the real world where people have to deal with real people who will kill you if you piss them off or are the wrong skin color/gay.
Does that include getting my ass stomped and threatened with worse if I came back for being white at the wrong mall? 'Cause that's a rude awakening, let me tell you. It's usually explained to me by people as "that's different". I believe this is bullshit from both sides, not just 'neo nazis'.
When I see 'nazi' thrown around it just reminds me of what Orwell wrote about the term fascist. It's just as true now as then:
Quote from: George OrwellIt will be seen that, as used, the word 'Fascism' is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.
It literally means anything I don't like. This entire conversation is fascist. DeadDMWalking's letter was fascist. Humidity? That's definitely fascist. To keep it RPG related, D&D3.x is fascist.
FWIW most people here seem open to conversation. I appreciate -most- of the folks who lean more left who post here as mostly trying to be open minded and balanced in their discussion. The folks who lean right tend to be same. Everyone is called out on their bullshit and people move on.
Regarding the letter that started all this, I get that he's saying if people here are called out for "the idea that maybe they don't do enough to make gaming fun for as wide an audience as possible" people get upset. Yeah. People tend to get pissed at being accused of things that aren't true. There's a big hate here for story games, certainly, but I haven't seen anyone here advocate confiscation. Outside of that I'm curious as to what he means. Maybe it's the obtuse bullshit being discussed in another thread.
"I think they tend to forget that there are real people who'd love to sling dice but have real obstacles that they might not be able to overcome on their own." Like what? Like not having a local game store? Like just wanting to
indulge my hateful fantasies against [insert current oppressed group here] culture* and stomp some fucking orcs without being judged for it? Seriously tho, outside of 'he means SJW crap' what does that even mean?
TL/DR: Free speech is great. Silencing speech you don't like is bad.
*not actual reality. Your opinion may vary.
How is gaming not accessible? You just pick up a book, dice and snacks, and go for it. If you're a member of some group which you don't normally see in game clubs, and you'd like a group of people like you, then you pick up the book and find those gamers and by Gygax's scratchy beard you run that game!
This is the same as that whining a few weeks back when someone said some forum or game company wasn't inclusive of old school gaming, or whatever the fuck it was. Make it happen! Self-publish your rpg, like Gygax did! Start your own game group! I mean, there are people out there who got their grandmas to sit down and game with them.
The very first game group I was in kicked me out - and there were only two other guys! Did I complain? Yes! I went home and cried. Hey, I was 13. Then the next day I drew a copy of the cover of the Basic Set, put my name and phone number, went to the local library, up to the floor of children's books, and got them to let me paste it on the checkout counter - and I got a new game group!
You know that scene in Glory...
[video=youtube;gmo_PhSftuc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmo_PhSftuc[/youtube]
This is what I feel like with gamers sometimes. "Boohoo, enworld doesn't like conservatives like me... boohoo there's no game group for people living in East Woop Woop who are from Kyrgyzstan... boohooo.... life is hard."
"No shame, son, get up."
"Waaaaaaah!"
"Goddamnit you're the worst gamer in this club!"
People won't come here to debate us because we have opinions. There are lefties and righties and in-between-ies but one thing rings true. We respect your right to have your opinion.
People in the outrage brigade don't want your opinion. They want you to have their opinion.
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131416I also note a bunch of assholes don't seem to understand what free speech is. It means you can't be arrested for saying something.
Actually... you can very much be arrested for saying something. Free speech is not what alot of people seem to think it is. Which in some cases seems to border on some sort of cult religion.
I don't get gamers sometimes and why I say some have mental health issues.
One sends off a letter to be possibly published in Knights of the Dinner Table and DMW can't help but toss in a cheap shot at this forum. That is and still is a grade A obsession in plain view.
If I would have done the same and had issues with this place the last thing I would be writing to be published in the same magazine is my hate of a gaming forum. I would be writing about other things.
Not to mention a hypocrite because he is repressive and regressive as can be.