TheRPGSite

Like the title says one more victim of the unholy inquisition of the SocJus Cult

[video=youtube;JbeF-8ell3E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbeF-8ell3E[/youtube]

[video=youtube;XVYTFHJD1mQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVYTFHJD1mQ[/youtube]

Desborough seems to gloss over what the content was. The  report on Twitter that started this is that the GM sprang a kidnapping and gang rape of their teenage PCs on the players. If you're going to spring that on an audience without warning or clearing it with the convention organizers ... I have some sympathy with UKGE here.

But this, and the subsequent calls on TBP for universal mandatory X cards, reminds me of Chesterton's maxim: "When you break the big laws [restraint, modesty, sensitivity], you do not get freedom. You do not even get anarchy. You get the small laws."

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1090172Desborough seems to gloss over what the content was. The  report on Twitter that started this is that the GM sprang a kidnapping and gang rape of their teenage PCs on the players. If you're going to spring that on an audience without warning or clearing it with the convention organizers ... I have some sympathy with UKGE here.

But this, and the subsequent calls on TBP for universal mandatory X cards, reminds me of Chesterton's maxim: "When you break the big laws [restraint, modesty, sensitivity], you do not get freedom. You do not even get anarchy. You get the small laws."

Besides it being an horror 18+ game what other warning do they need?

When you bend the knee for the small seemingly reasonable requests you get the unholy inquisition.

Only right the player has is to quit the game.

Their calls for tolerance, inclusivity, restraint, modesty and sensitivity are but a disguise for them to get the power  to control what you're allowed to do always.

I didn't bend the knee to the Christian censors, not gonna do it to the SocJus Cult zealots.

Yeah... no.

Running a horror game is one thing. Running a game based around teen characters, and starting proceedings by introducing the fact that all the characters were/are gang raped as 8 year olds is beyond the fucking pale.  This kind of stunt has never been funny, welcome or acceptable. So while I don't agree with any calls for mandatory X cards and the like, on this occasion the GM in question was a fucking moron who deserved everything UKGE doled out to him. It was stupid and insensitive, and one of those occasions where you can't defend the actions with glib comments about 'free speech'. He knew full well what he was doing, likely knew what the consequences might be, and did it anyway. On the off chance that he's had his head buried up his ass for the past five years and wasn't aware that such trite 'shock' mechanisms are not going to cut any sympathetic ice, then tough shit pal.

But I do think that you treat this is an incident that's been handled, handled well by the con, and appropriate punishment meted. You don't treat it as some kind of apocalyptic meltdown of gaming as we know it (because it fucking ain't); treat it for what it was - a fucking stupid, insensitive, prick-move by one prick GM out of what must be thousands of GMs who didn't behave like pricks. What we'll now have is the likes of Delaforno and Helton demanding that he be sacked from his job, everyone who knows and likes him sacked from their's, his family being pointed at in the streets, and that he be forced to go and live on the same fucking penal colony island they previously had reserved for Bill Webb.

And so the wheel turns and grinds.

Sometimes the enemy of your enemy is an asshat.

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1090184Yeah... no.

Running a horror game is one thing. Running a game based around teen characters, and starting proceedings by introducing the fact that all the characters were/are gang raped as 8 year olds is beyond the fucking pale.  This kind of stunt has never been funny, welcome or acceptable. So while I don't agree with any calls for mandatory X cards and the like, on this occasion the GM in question was a fucking moron who deserved everything UKGE doled out to him. It was stupid and insensitive, and one of those occasions where you can't defend the actions with glib comments about 'free speech'. He knew full well what he was doing, likely knew what the consequences might be, and did it anyway. On the off chance that he's had his head buried up his ass for the past five years and wasn't aware that such trite 'shock' mechanisms are not going to cut any sympathetic ice, then tough shit pal.

But I do think that you treat this is an incident that's been handled, handled well by the con, and appropriate punishment meted. You don't treat it as some kind of apocalyptic meltdown of gaming as we know it (because it fucking ain't); treat it for what it was - a fucking stupid, insensitive, prick-move by one prick GM out of what must be thousands of GMs who didn't behave like pricks. What we'll now have is the likes of Delaforno and Helton demanding that he be sacked from his job, everyone who knows and likes him sacked from their's, his family being pointed at in the streets, and that he be forced to go and live on the same fucking penal colony island they previously had reserved for Bill Webb.

And so the wheel turns and grinds.

UKGE can do what they want. The problem is the witch hunt unleashed by the woke morons as you point out. And people have the right to be a moron, an asshat or worse as long as they're not hurting anybody. (at least in the civilized world which UK isn't part of anymore).

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1090184...
And so the wheel turns and grinds.

Well said.

Look. I get all the fist pumping and chest pounding. Everything is a line drawn in the sand...

First, advertising an 18+ adult horror game at a convention generically doesn't give the GM license to gang rape teenagers. This is a sensitive subject to some people. You don't just spring it without having SOME kind of discussion first. Secondly, why pick THIS subject for a con game? What an amazing way to reinforce the fat-bearded clueless InCel archetype.

I get all the snowflake outrage is getting fucking stupid. Yes, I too am tired of it. In this instance the person did not scream out or call for an inquisition. It was a simple kick the guy out and move on moment. It was delightfully not snowflake outrage until the snowflakes got a hold of it. Also, it's a no-brainer.

TL|DR Moronic InCel fat-beard drops FATAL on the table HARD without a postcard. Crowd fails sanity check and kicks him out. Forever. He deserves it. Unfortunately, news at 11.

Quote from: trechriron;1090187Well said.

Look. I get all the fist pumping and chest pounding. Everything is a line drawn in the sand...

First, advertising an 18+ adult horror game at a convention generically doesn't give the GM license to gang rape teenagers. This is a sensitive subject to some people. You don't just spring it without having SOME kind of discussion first. Secondly, why pick THIS subject for a con game? What an amazing way to reinforce the fat-bearded clueless InCel archetype.

I get all the snowflake outrage is getting fucking stupid. Yes, I too am tired of it. In this instance the person did not scream out or call for an inquisition. It was a simple kick the guy out and move on moment. It was delightfully not snowflake outrage until the snowflakes got a hold of it. Also, it's a no-brainer.

TL|DR Moronic InCel fat-beard drops FATAL on the table HARD without a postcard. Crowd fails sanity check and kicks him out. Forever. He deserves it. Unfortunately, news at 11.

"Gang rape fictional teenagers"

Kick him out? Yes
Ban him? Probably
Ruin his life and that of anybody close to him that doesn't join in the witch hunt? Hell no!

If you sign up for a 18+ horror game, you get an 18+ horror game.

I don't use rape in games. Never have, never will. Half-orcs are cursed humans and Dagon's fish people are cultists who transformed themselves for immortality willingly. I do however use a fuckton of splatterpunk level gore worthy of a Cannibal Corpse album.

But nobody gets to whine when 18+ horror (that's not R in the US, that's equivalent to NC-17 or X rated) goes to creepy fucked up places. If its too much for you, your choice is to walk. Just like out of a movie or putting down a book that you thought might be within your horror enjoyment zone, but turns out to not be your thing.

Of course, SJWs can't be adults and the gamer wimp brigade of course is hugging their diapers in panic.

BTW, was GRIM the GM?

EDIT - okay, just watched Grim's video. Glad to hear it wasn't him (and yet, gotta admit I assumed it might be)

It seems like it was a dumb scenario and on the otherhand GeekyBugle is right that the resulting outrage seems over blown.

QuoteAnd people have the right to be a moron, an asshat or worse as long as they're not hurting anybody.

Yeah, they do. But this time, what he did was cause harm. Fuck man, I'd have been upset if I'd been one of the players. I'm not pearl-clutching on behalf of the Woke Hive Mind, but on this instance, the guy was a prick in a public place, caused damage, and has been duly kicked in the metaphorical nuts for it. I applaud the nut kicking.

QuoteRuin his life and that of anybody close to him that doesn't join in the witch hunt? Hell no!

100% with you. But his stupidity has simply handed the Woke Morality Police a nicely weighted baton round, so he gets another kick in the nuts for being too dip-shit stupid/egomaniacal (take your pick) to realize what would happen here.

Quote(at least in the civilized world which UK isn't part of anymore).

With the Way of the Woke rampant, the whole world is going to hell in a fucking handcart. The UK is just ahead of the curve.

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1090214Yeah, they do. But this time, what he did was cause harm. Fuck man, I'd have been upset if I'd been one of the players. I'm not pearl-clutching on behalf of the Woke Hive Mind, but on this instance, the guy was a prick in a public place, caused damage, and has been duly kicked in the metaphorical nuts for it. I applaud the nut kicking.



100% with you. But his stupidity has simply handed the Woke Morality Police a nicely weighted baton round, so he gets another kick in the nuts for being too dip-shit stupid/egomaniacal (take your pick) to realize what would happen here.


With the Way of the Woke rampant, the whole world is going to hell in a fucking handcart. The UK is just ahead of the curve.

Really? How did it cause harm? Because if it did you'd be able to prove it and it would be a crime (not a thought crime but a real crime), and hurt fee fees don't count.

And he had the right to be a prick, and the player had the right to up and leave, instead choose to stay to the end and then complain. The con might be right in kicking him out, after that? Nothing.

He might well be stupid or a shock jock, who cares? Yes we all know it couldn't end in any other way, and still we should all be furious that the woke morons have the power to destroy his life over this.

Yeah, funny enough turns out UK is a meme.

Quote from: Shasarak;1090199It seems like it was a dumb scenario and on the otherhand GeekyBugle is right that the resulting outrage seems over blown.

I'm happy to concede it was a dumb scenario by a shock jock dipshit.

Yet history has shown we can't concede the pearl clutching brigade any power, so the con kicks him out and even bans him? A little overblown for a first time offender but okey.

Anything beyond that is a witch hunt and should be denounced by any freedom loving person even if they find the mere thought of such scenario revolting.

QuoteReally? How did it cause harm? Because if it did you'd be able to prove it and it would be a crime (not a thought crime but a real crime), and hurt fee fees don't count.

The players paid money to take part in the game, which implies they made a consumer choice based on a description of what the expect. They sat down at a table expecting X, and Shit-Heel springs Y on them. One of the players was a first-time role-player, according to reports, and is going to be taking away a really fucking sweet impression of this hobby. Why didn't they get up and walk away? Many reasons: didn't want to be rude (Canadians and Brits are like that. It's a cultural thing); didn't want to cause a fuss; didn't know how to react. Didn't want to ruin the game for others. The point is, they were subjected to something that was unexpected and done purely for the 'shock value' - which I interpret as this Prick GM deriving some kind of personal lolz from seeing the shocked expressions on everyone's faces when he did what he did. Yeah, it was damage. A bit more than just 'hurt fee-fees', because it was a deliberate attempt to mislead, shock and cause discomfort.

But hey - you think that's okay, and that's your right. As you said, everyone has the right to be an asshole.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090193"Gang rape fictional teenagers"

I don't think that matters one bit.  Arguably, rape in general should just be off the table.  Toss kids in, you've gone to the "oh, HELL no" side of the spectrum.  There's no situation where raping kids is acceptable.

That said, if he got removed and perma-banned from the con, I think that's a suitable punishment.  He can't learn from his mistake and reform his behavior otherwise.

Quote from: Chunkthulhu;1090244I don't think that matters one bit.  Arguably, rape in general should just be off the table.  Toss kids in, you've gone to the "oh, HELL no" side of the spectrum.  There's no situation where raping kids is acceptable.

That said, if he got removed and perma-banned from the con, I think that's a suitable punishment.  He can't learn from his mistake and reform his behavior otherwise.

Not arguing for rape at the table, just making the distinction because it does make a difference if it was fictional or not, the second type lands you in jail. Agreed that raping kids isn't acceptable.

Exactly, kick him out, perma-ban his ass and that's enough.

The discussion should be about the woke pearl clutchers trying to ruin his life.

I would say he kind of ruined his own life with a shocking lack of posting an rpg scenario with sexual assault then instead of apologizing making a statement about liking how it bothers people. Truly a lack of any social survival skills imo. Mistake maybe but it is one hell of a mistake that could have easily been avoided if the dumbass DM put actualyl gave a shit about what he was doing and not trying to impress other gamers with the shock value of his scenario. Shit like this that people who truly should know better making easily avoidable mistakes. While giving SJWs an excuse to cause the hobby more harm.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090251it does make a difference if it was fictional or not

I don't think it does.  But that's totally OK, we don't have to agree on that and I'm not going to clutch pearls and try to ruin your life.  :)

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090251The discussion should be about the woke pearl clutchers trying to ruin his life.

That's just a... shithole we've been down before.  They don't believe in redemption; once a person has made a mistake like this, that person is doomed for life.

I'm not an SJW by any means yet it is also a self-inflicted mistake that might ruin his own life. Anyone with a functioning brain cell could have seen that scenario should have never left the mind of the DM. Your just asking to get banned from the rpg community. As I said yes it is a mistake yet man one hell of stupid mistake to do and then essentially do the equivalent of a smile and go " i like trolling people so I pull this kind of stupid shit for giggles and kicks".

Quote from: sureshot;1090263I'm not an SJW by any means yet it is also a self-inflicted mistake that might ruin his own life. Anyone with a functioning brain cell could have seen that scenario should have never left the mind of the DM. Your just asking to get banned from the rpg community. As I said yes it is a mistake yet man one hell of stupid mistake to do and then essentially do the equivalent of a smile and go " i like trolling people so I pull this kind of stupid shit for giggles and kicks".

That's kind of my take on it.

In general, I don't believe this was all that big of a deal and I vehemently disagree that anyone was actually harmed (and if someone thinks they were, they need to consult a therapist and get on meds) - at the same time, I think the inclusion of the "offending" subject matter is just neck-bearded edgelord behavior, and completely, utterly ridiculously myopic given the current state of wokeness.  To introduce that at a convention with randos at your table?  You're just a fucking moron.

It would be fantastic if everyone acted like adults, and, if they didn't like the subject matter, excuse themselves from the table, and let those that were down with it enjoy themselves, but that's not the world we live in anymore, so, my judgement of "This GM is a fucking moron" stands.

I don't understand the part about remaining at the table until the end if being offended by the scenario. Or sitting through a discussion, movie etc if one is offended. If something bothers me I get up and leave. Fuck politeness and your hurt feelings. Sorry you get no sympathy from myself once one starts talking casual about any form of sexual assault. If the person gets offended by my departure they can go and eat rocks. If for example I was at the table I would have left as soon as any form of sexual abuse came up during the game. Not sit through the entire Edgy Mcbearded rape fantasy scenario. Hell I might even reported him to the con organizers because that kind of shit does not belong in anyway shape or form at any rpg convention. The SJWs are using any excuse to brand the hobby as toxic and unwelcoming. No need to provide them more free ammunition to do so

Quote from: sureshot;1090274I don't understand the part about remaining at the table until the end if being offended by the scenario. Or sitting through a discussion, movie etc if one is offended. If something bothers me I get up and leave. Fuck politeness and your hurt feelings. Sorry you get no sympathy from myself once one starts talking casual about any form of sexual assault. If the person gets offended by my departure they can go and eat rocks. If for example I was at the table I would have left as soon as any form of sexual abuse came up during the game. Not sit through the entire Edgy Mcbearded rape fantasy scenario. Hell I might even reported him to the con organizers because that kind of shit does not belong in anyway shape or form at any rpg convention. The SJWs are using any excuse to brand the hobby as toxic and unwelcoming. No need to provide them more free ammunition to do so

The thing is (And I bet I'm right) the moron wasn't offended but titillated by the "Edgy Mcbearded rape fantasy scenario". Then got a guilty conscience for enjoying it and blamed the GM for the sin, then Mr Edgy Mcbeard gets kicked out, banned and the woke morons go after him to ruin his life.

And it's that last part I have a problem with.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090276The thing is (And I bet I'm right) the moron wasn't offended but titillated by the "Edgy Mcbearded rape fantasy scenario". Then got a guilty conscience for enjoying it and blamed the GM for the sin, then Mr Edgy Mcbeard gets kicked out, banned and the woke morons go after him to ruin his life.

And it's that last part I have a problem with.

Possibly. Unfortunately without any kind of video proof or another player at the same table coming forward to defend the exiled DM. We have a DM/Player said scenario and given how currently sexual assault is justifiably frowned upon in our culture. Well he is screwed. That and his "I'm trying to push your buttons for lols and giggles" comment did not help his case. If one is going to try such a risky form of content an rpg convention one needs to have some kind of proof they were at first willing participants at the table. If not well he is shit out of luck. Even then slapping an 18+ rating does not imo suddenly make the topic of sexual assault an a gaming table acceptable. Which is why I would never ever un a game with such a rating. Even outside of cons at my gaming table and many other posters here he would be banned from their homes. Now the offending DM has to accept the responsibility for his own stupid actions.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090251The discussion should be about the woke pearl clutchers trying to ruin his life.

Do we have any examples of that other than Jim's videos? I don't doubt that it might be happening, but you seem very sure it is happening and I'm interested to know what you're seeing.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1090283Do we have any examples of that other than Jim's videos? I don't doubt that it might be happening, but you seem very sure it is happening and I'm interested to know what you're seeing.

You really think there's any chance it's not happening? Can you recognize patterns? And if it's not happening right now just give them a couple days more.

If you're going to have rape in your public convention game, especially rape of children, you're not edgy you're an asshat


Fuck that guy.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090284You really think there's any chance it's not happening? Can you recognize patterns? And if it's not happening right now just give them a couple days more.

So you're saying that all of this is because you predict bad behavior rather than because it's actually happening?

Someone else posted a link in another thread about this, and the GM isn't even named. I sounded like kicking the GM out was the end of it.

Quote from: Lurtch;1090286If you're going to have rape in your public convention game, especially rape of children, you're not edgy you're an asshat


Fuck that guy.

Agreed. He can eat shit. This is the wrong hill for the anti-SJW brigade to die on.

First they came for Alex Jones, and I said nothing because I don't watch his content.

First they came for the asshats, and I said nothing because I don't enjoy their asshatery.

And that's all I have to say about this to those willing to let the woke pearlclutchers destroy that particular asshat's life.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1090287So you're saying that all of this is because you predict bad behavior rather than because it's actually happening?

Someone else posted a link in another thread about this, and the GM isn't even named. I sounded like kicking the GM out was the end of it.

I predict the moon will rise tonight, the Sun will set today and then rise tomorrow. Do I have evidence? No, I have a pattern and no reason to believe the pattern will stop repeating itself.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090293I predict the moon will rise tonight, the Sun will set today and then rise tomorrow. Do I have evidence? No, I have a pattern and no reason to believe the pattern will stop repeating itself.

You seem far too invested in making this thing a bigger thing that it seems to be.

Bored now.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090292First they came for Alex Jones, and I said nothing because I don't watch his content.

First they came for the asshats, and I said nothing because I don't enjoy their asshatery.

And that's all I have to say about this to those willing to let the woke pearlclutchers destroy that particular asshat's life.

What you seem determined to ignore is that the DM that is being targeted ruined his own life. Never ever include themes such as sexual assault at any gaming table ever. If those participating agree to include it at the gaming table one takes a cellphone video of them giving their consent to join. If they refuse then one that scenario is never ever run let alone mentioned ever again. More importantly never admit to including such material just to push people buttons for shits and giggles. The particular DM fucked up, gave them the rope to hang him with and now has to face the consequences of his own actions. If assuming people should own up to their own mistakes makes me a pearlcluther than so be it.

Again he fucked up big time seemed determined to do it to get a reaction presumably a negative one you thought nothing would happen especially in today PC rpg culture.

Quote from: sureshot;1090296What you seem determined to ignore is that the DM that is being targeted ruined his own life. Never ever include themes such as sexual assault at any gaming table ever. If those participating agree to include it at the gaming table one takes a cellphone video of them giving their consent to join. If they refuse then one that scenario is never ever run let alone mentioned ever again. More importantly never admit to including such material just to push people buttons for shits and giggles. The particular DM fucked up, gave them the rope to hang him with and now has to face the consequences of his own actions. If assuming people should own up to their own mistakes makes me a pearlcluther than so be it.

Again he fucked up big time seemed determined to do it to get a reaction presumably a negative one you thought nothing would happen especially in today PC rpg culture.

Yeah, I know he brought it on himself, and you seem pretty happy to let the SJWs destroy him because you don't like the shock jock theme.

I don't like the theme either, I just happen to think that letting the woke morons destroy ppl is never a good thing.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090299Yeah, I know he brought it on himself, and you seem pretty happy to let the SJWs destroy him because you don't like the shock jock theme.

The offending DM brought this on himself. He should have never run such a scenario without the consent of players either captured on film to prove his innocence. Or some other form in writing on paper or an email. Then when it offends his players like the DM knew it would they admit to doing it on purpose to get a negative reaction. We are not talking about an SJW sad that the DM was too graphic in the depiction of the death o his character. We are talking about a DM who on purpose decided to include sexual assault into one his games for simple shits and giggles and to see how far he could push his players. He all but asked to be banned from the hobby and become the rpg version of an pariah. I'm not an SJW yet neither terribly sad when a DM goes out of his way to purposefully self destruct his own career as a DM so to speak to push people buttons. Actions have consequences and he did something truly stupid now he has to pay for it. I'm not an SJW and he and any other DM who would such a stunt would be banned from my table. No exceptions, non-negotiable. If I'm at a con they get reported. I'm assuming the offending DM is an adult  and should have known without being told not to put sexual assault willingly into their scenarios. Anyone who does that deserves what they get. It's like your trying to downplay the severity of what he did just to push the narrative that the SJWs are ruining his life. They DM ruined his own life.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090299I don't like the theme either, I just happen to think that letting the woke morons destroy ppl is never a good thing.

The offending DM destroyed himself. If one has to be told not to put sexual assault into their campaigns they are either the most clueless social person on the planet or not giving the the absolute shits about what happens to them. Either way they don't get my support because they should know better. This was not a DM who committed a minor infraction he included a rape scene in his campaign. Yes the offended players should have left. You know what though the DM should have never included such a disturbing topic in the first place. Sexual assault is one of those topics where both SJWs and anti-SJWs both agree is a VERY bad thing. The offending DM was a dumbass , should have known better and now pays the price for his easily avoidable stupidity.

Quote from: sureshot;1090301The offending DM was a dumbass , should have known better and now pays the price for his easily avoidable stupidity.

So... he was ejected from the con, and banned from future cons.  Is there no room in your viewpoint for him to recognize he fucked up, and insure that he doesn't make similar boneheaded choices in the future?

The GM in question lacked basic common sense. He disregarded the fact the con was a public venue. And that there is just content you do not ever bring to a public venue.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1090305The GM in question lacked basic common sense. He disregarded the fact the con was a public venue. And that there is just content you do not ever bring to a public venue.

More than that - he didn't warn his participants there would be ANY adult material, let alone what he eventually sprang on them. The scenario submitted to the organisers did not include any mature material at all.

Quote from: Chunkthulhu;1090302So... he was ejected from the con, and banned from future cons.  Is there no room in your viewpoint for him to recognize he fucked up, and insure that he doesn't make similar boneheaded choices in the future?

Given the DM reaction after the game ended and the nature of the material he did not just fuckup he went out of his way to fuck up on purpose. The DM fuck up could have been easily avoided and his ejection also avoided if he used common sense and not put that kind of material in his scenario at the con. It's not even common sense anyone on a personal level who actually gave a fuck about anything would know not to include sexual assault in scenario being run at a con at a public venue. He also pulled a bait and switch with the con organizers by not including the adult material to be vetted by them only to spring it on his players at the table. No warning to the players beyond the 18+ rating yet in today PC gaming culture that could mean simply killing a goblinl. Though if the game has an 18+ rating it should have been a huge warning sign to anyone that it would not be your standard con game.

Make an innocent mistake I'm all for a second chance. Playing mind games with the players and the con for shits and giggles no second chance. Even then only with a public apology on Youtube for being a truly fucking stupid dumbass who gives the hobby a bad name.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1090305The GM in question lacked basic common sense. He disregarded the fact the con was a public venue. And that there is just content you do not ever bring to a public venue.

Quote from: spon;1090306More than that - he didn't warn his participants there would be ANY adult material, let alone what he eventually sprang on them. The scenario submitted to the organisers did not include any mature material at all.

Agreed and seconded on both posts. With the intent to play mind games for shits and giggles because he could.

QuoteThe thing is (And I bet I'm right) the moron wasn't offended but titillated by the "Edgy Mcbearded rape fantasy scenario". Then got a guilty conscience for enjoying it and blamed the GM for the sin

Sooooo... according to you (because you bet you're right), the people who turned up expecting a game of 'Stranger Things', and got paedophile gang rape instead are a) morons; b) secretly turned on by it? Fucking wow. Do you think (because you know you're right) that not liking child rape is somehow abnormal? Or do you think they were morons for expecting a game that maybe didn't include child rape and obviously shoulda fucking known better? And sure, yeah, it's so obviously not the GM's fault because they were getting off on the idea and then got struck by a case of Catholic guilt?

You really are a fucking class act, pal. Still like you said: 'everyone's got a right to be an asshole', and you sure do like to exercise your fucking rights, don't you?

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1090315Sooooo... according to you (because you bet you're right), the people who turned up expecting a game of 'Stranger Things', and got paedophile gang rape instead are a) morons; b) secretly turned on by it? Fucking wow. Do you think (because you know you're right) that not liking child rape is somehow abnormal? Or do you think they were morons for expecting a game that maybe didn't include child rape and obviously shoulda fucking known better? And sure, yeah, it's so obviously not the GM's fault because they were getting off on the idea and then got struck by a case of Catholic guilt?

You really are a fucking class act, pal. Still like you said: 'everyone's got a right to be an asshole', and you sure do like to exercise your fucking rights, don't you?

So now it was paedophile gang rape? The characters were teens, so you're wrong.

And exactly where do you draw the line in regards to free speech?

Yes, I'm a class act, I have enough class to follow my liberal principles "I disagree with what you say but would fight for your right to say it"

You on the other hand have no principles and act depending if you agree or not with the speech. So either a right wing SJW or a left wing one.

Your argument is "won't somebody think of the children?" as if that guy being a shock jock actually raped somebody.

Also, I thought you were bored with me?

Quote from: Chunkthulhu;1090302So... he was ejected from the con, and banned from future cons.  Is there no room in your viewpoint for him to recognize he fucked up, and insure that he doesn't make similar boneheaded choices in the future?

Doesn't seem like there's any room for redemption for being a neckbeard shock jock. Eerily familiar with the SJWs, where do we draw the line? What is "justified" grounds to destroy some asshole's life? And are we sure the woke morons won't move the goal post and keep on reducing what's acceptable?

When they start going after what we find acceptable will be too late.

If you don't defend the rights of those you disagree with you don't believe in rights but in privileges.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090316And exactly where do you draw the line in regards to free speech?

You do realize that free speech is only in respect to the government - right?

The convention isn't run by the government and has no requirement to allow creepy GMs to do whatever they want to.

This is hard to decide because the guy should had fucking told them there would be teenager rape involved in his game.  I mean not telling them that is a douche move and I can certainly see why the players would complain about it.  On the other hand free speech...  I am neutral on this as both sides are fucking things up.

Was this some kind of comedy performance art game?

"Your characters are raped, nya ha ha ha ha!"

"Dude, what are you, 12 years old?"

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1090172But this, and the subsequent calls on TBP for universal mandatory X cards,

Fucking christ. How about no?  Deal with interpersonal issues like adults, not children who need a hall pass to go to the fucking bathroom.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1090318You do realize that free speech is only in respect to the government - right?

The convention isn't run by the government and has no requirement to allow creepy GMs to do whatever they want to.

You are confusing free speech with the American 1st Amendment. They are not the same thing.

The convention can indeed put restrictions on content. Their venue, their rules. That's why they can restrict speech.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1090321You are confusing free speech with the American 1st Amendment. They are not the same thing.

Technically yes - but when people say "free speech" the implication is the "right to free speech" - which is inherently a right from government, whether or not it's in the US. You can't have a "right" in relation to another private person.

The guy has the right to say creepy stuff, and the con has the right to kick him to the curb for it.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090186(at least in the civilized world which UK isn't part of anymore).

Thats the problem with the UK. They ban anything that 'might' be dangerous. Or even words that someone somewhere out there might find offensive or... dangerous!

TMNT is a good example. Someone used nunchucks to rob a store? All nunchucks are banned as are depictions of them. Ninjas are scary and use pointy things. Banned. Now its Teenage Mutant HERO Turtles! And so on ad nausium. Someone used a replica Klingon weapon in a riot or somesuch? Banned. Think they even banned pocket knives. The word Dweeb? Banned. (or at least censored). This on top of their 'internet police squad' and surveillance cameras increasingly all over the place. For your safety!

Its allways "for your safety!" or better yet. "for your childrens safety!" just give up one more little tiny freedom here. Oh and one over there, and hey can we implant tracking chips in your kids? For your safety! And you know. Wouldnt it be just jolly if we installed surveillance cameras in your house? for your safety!

And there are people willing to practically sell their kids futures into slavery to keep them "safe".

And this gets applied to games too.

Did you know some people roll dice to gamble? RPGs are banned because they are gambling! A law in effect in a few EU cities as of a decade ago. Its been done in the US too way back in the 80s or 90s.

As for the incident with this game. What REALLY happened? Was some player offended? Did the DM not lay out this stuff before session? If everyone went into this knowing it was going to be a mess then whats the problem? If this was just sprung on them out of the blue then thats on the DM for not being clear before hand. Since it seems to have been at a con then it actually does make sense in a way. But the better option would have been to just ask the DM to tone it down.

I've done alot of horror sessions and allways I lay out beforehand what the limits are and what is and isnt acceptable. As a player I tend to ask before session and try to mention any hard "NO's" if I think things might go in ways Im not comfortable with.

So this is an old chestnut that is up to the DM and players. Not some faceless mob trying to dictate how everyone MUST play.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1090318You do realize that free speech is only in respect to the government - right?

The convention isn't run by the government and has no requirement to allow creepy GMs to do whatever they want to.

Muh private platform! Until they up and get you.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090324Muh private platform! Until they up and get you.

You're being incoherent. And ranting. And with more than a touch of conspiracy theorizing on top for good measure.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090324Muh private platform! Until they up and get you.

To provide some perspective, if you pulled this sort of shit at a meeting in any company big enough to have an HR department, your ass would be fired so fast it would make your head spin.

Quote from: Omega;1090323Thats the problem with the UK. They ban anything that 'might' be dangerous. Or even words that someone somewhere out there might find offensive or... dangerous!

TMNT is a good example. Someone used nunchucks to rob a store? All nunchucks are banned as are depictions of them. Ninjas are scary and use pointy things. Banned. Now its Teenage Mutant HERO Turtles! And so on ad nausium. Someone used a replica Klingon weapon in a riot or somesuch? Banned. Think they even banned pocket knives. The word Dweeb? Banned. (or at least censored). This on top of their 'internet police squad' and surveillance cameras increasingly all over the place. For your safety!

Its allways "for your safety!" or better yet. "for your childrens safety!" just give up one more little tiny freedom here. Oh and one over there, and hey can we implant tracking chips in your kids? For your safety! And you know. Wouldnt it be just jolly if we installed surveillance cameras in your house? for your safety!

And there are people willing to practically sell their kids futures into slavery to keep them "safe".

And this gets applied to games too.

Did you know some people roll dice to gamble? RPGs are banned because they are gambling! A law in effect in a few EU cities as of a decade ago. Its been done in the US too way back in the 80s or 90s.

As for the incident with this game. What REALLY happened? Was some player offended? Did the DM not lay out this stuff before session? If everyone went into this knowing it was going to be a mess then whats the problem? If this was just sprung on them out of the blue then thats on the DM for not being clear before hand.

I've done alot of horror sessions and allways I lay out beforehand what the limits are and what is and isnt acceptable. As a player I tend to ask before session and try to mention any hard "NO's" if I think things might go in ways Im not comfortable with.

So this is an old chestnut that is up to the DM and players. Not some faceless mob trying to dictate how everyone MUST play.

The GM didn't warn anybody, not even the convention, the characters were all 18-19 (so teens) despite some here calling it paedophile gang rape.

Agreed with everything.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1090326To provide some perspective, if you pulled this sort of shit at a meeting in any company big enough to have an HR department, your ass would be fired so fast it would make your head spin.

Yes, and a convention isn't that. Unless you happen to be staff, which the asshole wasn't.

Still I agree the convention was in their right to kick him out and ban him. It's the morons trying to dox him and so destroy him what I have a problem with.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090329Yes, and a convention isn't that. Unless you happen to be staff, which the asshole wasn't.

Still I agree the convention was in their right to kick him out and ban him. It's the morons trying to dox him and so destroy him what I have a problem with.

If you were running a convention in the future, and he applied to run a game, would you let him?

Quote from: spon;1090333If you were running a convention in the future, and he applied to run a game, would you let him?

Not unless he wrote a pretty damn convincing letter showing he's realized how grossly inappropriate it was to spring this on players.  

18+ means I don't want to be limited to topics only appropriate for children.  In today's environment I'd take that to mean things might get killed instead of beat furiously with pillows or given a strong worded lecture. It doesn't mean I want to spend three hours in tentacle porn unless someone explicitly said "Be ok with tentacle porn and violent sexual content".

QuoteSo now it was paedophile gang rape? The characters were teens, so you're wrong.

Yep, you're right; I misremembered the original article. No paedophilia involved. I was wrong.

QuoteAnd exactly where do you draw the line in regards to free speech?

This is really fuck-all to do with free speech. The players signed up for a game expecting a particular kind of experience and got something unexpected and unpleasant. The GM misrepresented his game, the experience on offer, and didn't seem to care about the effect. That's not a case of free speech; it's a nasty case of bait and fucking switch.

QuoteYou on the other hand have no principles and act depending if you agree or not with the speech. So either a right wing SJW or a left wing one.

I think its pretty fucking clear that I think the GM is a prick and deserved the punishment he got. I've also been pretty fucking clear that I don't believe he should be hounded until he rots for being an asshole. You however, seem intent on ignoring what I've said and turning this back on the guys who complained by deciding that they're morons and secretly getting hard-ons from the subject matter. Principles? I'm not sure you actually grasp the concept all that well.

QuoteYour argument is "won't somebody think of the children?" as if that guy being a shock jock actually raped somebody.

My arguments have been pretty clearly stated. And they ain't that.

QuoteAlso, I thought you were bored with me?

I never said I was bored with you! Hell, you're the gift that keeps on giving!

Quote from: sureshot;1090263I'm not an SJW by any means yet it is also a self-inflicted mistake that might ruin his own life. Anyone with a functioning brain cell could have seen that scenario should have never left the mind of the DM. Your just asking to get banned from the rpg community. As I said yes it is a mistake yet man one hell of stupid mistake to do and then essentially do the equivalent of a smile and go " i like trolling people so I pull this kind of stupid shit for giggles and kicks".

Its more that this should not have been run at a con where you werent darn sure it was ok to. That sort of session would fly at MiniCon. I mean really, they had a live BDSM party going every night every year. But it would not be ok at a more family friendly con. GenCon might be a no. Though in ages past they wouldnt have cared. There was some pretty creepy stuff played. But usually the more adult stuff was sectioned in special areas for that so you wouldnt creep out anyone else. Werewolf, Vampire, etc, saw those sectioned off now and then.

A quick glance at the expo site seems to indicate it is more family oriented? That should have been a red flag warning right there?

Quote from: spon;1090333If you were running a convention in the future, and he applied to run a game, would you let him?

I'm with Bunch in this, if he showed he learned why it was wrong to spring gang rape on the players? sure.

Quote from: sureshot;1090274I don't understand the part about remaining at the table until the end if being offended by the scenario. Or sitting through a discussion, movie etc if one is offended. If something bothers me I get up and leave. Fuck politeness and your hurt feelings.

Where I play it is considered polite to bow out of a session if its not going in a way you like and impolite to sit through when you are hating it. Or just speak up and say "hey? could we tone this down some?"

I've actually had issues with players who played something horror themed, were asked halfway through if they are enjoying it, they said yes, and at the end declared they didnt. Theres the door. Go.

Quote from: Omega;1090336Its more that this should not have been run at a con where you werent darn sure it was ok to. That sort of session would fly at MiniCon. I mean really, they had a live BDSM party going every night every year. But it would not be ok at a more family friendly con. GenCon might be a no. Though in ages past they wouldnt have cared. There was some pretty creepy stuff played. But usually the more adult stuff was sectioned in special areas for that so you wouldnt creep out anyone else. Werewolf, Vampire, etc, saw those sectioned off now and then.

A quick glance at the expo site seems to indicate it is more family oriented? That should have been a red flag warning right there?

Good point.

Mistakes do happen it was just the very cavalier attitude to the players complaints which really tells me the character of the DM. The players at the table are angry and not at all happy with the content of the scenario and the DMs response was "I did it for shits and giggles and because I like pushing people buttons". That kind of response shows an utter lack of basic human decency imo. Who is to say he will not pull that kind of thing a second time. He gave fake account of what he was going to run so he could get it past the cons vetting committee or whatever they use to verify scenarios before they are allowed to be played on the floor. Decides to add sexual assault at the last minute to the scenario at the last minute without telling the players. To me that is not someone who is going to learn from past mistakes. More someone complaining they were caught.

Maybe that would fly at Mini-con as you. though even there I think they would have a warning about sexual assault.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090338I'm with Bunch in this, if he showed he learned why it was wrong to spring gang rape on the players? sure.

The thing is I'm not sure if he will learn from his mistake. One normal reaction to pissing off and angering people is not to say that one intent to was push their buttons for shits and giggles. One apologies on the spot. Whose to say he won't try it again given his past behavior at trying to circumvent the cons rules and policies on sexual assault and changing the scenario at the last minute.

Quote from: Omega;1090339Where I play it is considered polite to bow out of a session if its not going in a way you like and impolite to sit through when you are hating it. Or just speak up and say "hey? could we tone this down some?"

I've actually had issues with players who played something horror themed, were asked halfway through if they are enjoying it, they said yes, and at the end declared they didnt. Theres the door. Go.

I have played in one or two sessions where the DM one male anmd female were adding questionable material to their games. They refused to remove it from their campaigns and I and some other players walked away. The only thing I will say in defence DM dumbass is that the offended player(s) should have left immediately and gone to report his behavior to the con organizers. Not sit through the entire thing than complain about it.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1090305The GM in question lacked basic common sense. He disregarded the fact the con was a public venue. And that there is just content you do not ever bring to a public venue.

Quote from: spon;1090306More than that - he didn't warn his participants there would be ANY adult material, let alone what he eventually sprang on them. The scenario submitted to the organisers did not include any mature material at all.

That seems to be the case. Its weird and a bit suspicious. Either the DM was stupid, or deliberately out to shock. Or the DM did warn ahead and someone was shocked anyhow? Does anyone know what the session pitch was? Was it a scheduled event or a walk in? This could be a telling factor.

Addendum: Seems he did not warn anyone beforehand? That changes things quite a bit.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090327The GM didn't warn anybody, not even the convention, the characters were all 18-19 (so teens) despite some here calling it paedophile gang rape.

Agreed with everything.

Ok so if he didnt warn anyone then yeah thats on the DM and he pretty much begged to get kicked. The Expo isnt MiniCon or any other adult con with gaming venues. Though still I think the first recourse should have been to just ask the DM to tone it down or cut it out. And boot him only if he didnt.

Quote from: Omega;1090341That seems to be the case. Its weird and a bit suspicious. Either the DM was stupid, or deliberately out to shock. Or the DM did warn ahead and someone was shocked anyhow? Does anyone know what the session pitch was? Was it a scheduled event or a walk in? This could be a telling factor.

I have it from one of the organisers of the con that he did not warn anyone ahead of time about what he was going to do. There was no warning of any sort of mature content at all. The game that he submitted to the organisers for vetting had no such content in it. It was a scheduled event. The game was a teenage version of a stranger things-type scenario. The GM was someone who had GMed at cons before without any issues at all. Who knows why the F he did it?

Quote from: sureshot;1090274Hell I might even reported him to the con organizers because that kind of shit does not belong in anyway shape or form at any rpg convention.

The other thing is, most conventions don't have each game group in their own room with closed door, but a table in a room full of tables. People at other tables and passers-by get to hear what's going on. So even if everyone at the game table is good with it all, others who didn't sign up for it will cop some.  

One of the purposes of a game convention is to promote gaming generally, get new gamers in, and old gamers back in. You're sitting next to or walk past this, it puts you off, maybe you decide you're better off packing away your dice and going back home and playing Minecraft instead.

And of course, many gamers try to bring their kids into gaming by means of conventions. If this sort of stuff happens they'll certainly leave their kids at home, and may not even come along themselves.

As someone said above, sometimes the enemy of my enemy is just a cocksmock.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1090322Technically yes - but when people say "free speech" the implication is the "right to free speech" - which is inherently a right from government, whether or not it's in the US. You can't have a "right" in relation to another private person.

There is also the principle of free speech. It's the principle that keeps us from becoming bloody savages, tearing each other's throats out. When speech ends, violence begins.
But, we're talking about a private venue with, I'm assuming, an expectation of content. Which is fine.

QuoteThe guy has the right to say creepy stuff, and the con has the right to kick him to the curb for it.

I agree.

I wonder what KiA has to say about it (https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/bvo0kq/news_uk_games_expo_bans_volunteer_gm_for_running/).

Also here's the testimony of someone else who was at the game in question (https://archive.is/5UN37).

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090179Besides it being an horror 18+ game what other warning do they need?

That the game features sexual assault.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090276The thing is (And I bet I'm right) the moron wasn't offended but titillated by the "Edgy Mcbearded rape fantasy scenario". Then got a guilty conscience for enjoying it and blamed the GM for the sin, then Mr Edgy Mcbeard gets kicked out, banned and the woke morons go after him to ruin his life.

And it's that last part I have a problem with.

...

Alllrightythen.

Quote from: Omega;1090323Thats the problem with the UK. They ban anything that 'might' be dangerous. Or even words that someone somewhere out there might find offensive or... dangerous!

TMNT is a good example. Someone used nunchucks to rob a store? All nunchucks are banned as are depictions of them. Ninjas are scary and use pointy things. Banned. Now its Teenage Mutant HERO Turtles!

I can't believe they just erased Japanese culture like that.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090338I'm with Bunch in this, if he showed he learned why it was wrong to spring gang rape on the players? sure.

Not without close supervision.

If one needs a refresher on whether or not it's appropriate to spring gang rape on the players, I would have rather grave concerns about what other very basic lessons one might have missed out on.

Quote from: Thornhammer;1090360Not without close supervision.

If one needs a refresher on whether or not it's appropriate to spring gang rape on the players, I would have rather grave concerns about what other very basic lessons one might have missed out on.

I agree. My comment is mostly about the idea that if you can show you acknowledge it was dumb and show you have learned there is a chance at forgiveness vs the idea that a stupid choice is a permanent irrevocable black mark for life.

It seems perfectly reasonable to expel him from the convention, a permanent ban from UKGE is harsh but ok.
It does not seem reasonable to seek to ban him from everything ever; that would be appropriate for someone who had really raped real people (once he got out of jail).

I agree he should not be banned from everything ever. Except he screwed himself over so badly by doing something that he should have never done in the first place. Include sexual assault in an rpg scenario at a con and then even more stupidly make fun of the reaction he received. The reason for shits and giggles. Yes people make mistakes this is one hell of a mistake which the Dumbass DM could have easily avoided. One apologizes profusely for including sexual assault in an rpg scenario especially when those who signed up for it were not expecting it. Not brush it off and laugh and say one is doing it for shock value.

Of course the SJWs are having a field day and why would they not. Given how Dumbass DM gave them the rope to hang them with it. He fucked up in a most spectacular way, did it on purpose and know has to accept the consequences of his own stupid actions.

Has there been any direct online response by the GM? I'd be interested to see what he says about the incident as well as his reaction to what others are saying/doing. If he was really going for intentional shock, then he might have anticipated everything that is happening and going ahead with his act implies consent for the banning et al.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090227And he had the right to be a prick, and the player had the right to up and leave, instead choose to stay to the end and then complain.

You just don't do that at Convention games. Sure, if you advertised it as 18+ Horror with sexual violence then people know beforehand whether to sign up. But springing that kind of thing in-game is just bad.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090227The con might be right in kicking him out, after that? Nothing.

Kicking him out and banning him for life is fine. I agree that the sanction should be the end of it.

Some people have been calling for Naming and Shaming, or banning him from other conventions. Personally, I think that is unfair.

However, if he pulls the same stunt at another convention then it would show what kind of person he is.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090292And that's all I have to say about this to those willing to let the woke pearlclutchers destroy that particular asshat's life.

Yay!

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090299Yeah, I know he brought it on himself, and you seem pretty happy to let the SJWs destroy him because you don't like the shock jock theme.

I don't like the theme either, I just happen to think that letting the woke morons destroy ppl is never a good thing.

I thought that was the last thing you were going to say on the subject?

Boo!

Quote from: soltakss;1090410You just don't do that at Convention games. Sure, if you advertised it as 18+ Horror with sexual violence then people know beforehand whether to sign up. But springing that kind of thing in-game is just bad.

Problem is the spoilers to your campaign (or one shot) what we need is more classifications as Grimm suggested in his latest video on the matter, so you put a horror + rated X in your game and there's no need for anything else. I agree that springing it just like that is bad form, but we still don't know the whole of the story. Grimm is going to interview the asshat, then we will know more.

Quote from: soltakss;1090410Kicking him out and banning him for life is fine. I agree that the sanction should be the end of it.

Agreed

Quote from: soltakss;1090410Some people have been calling for Naming and Shaming, or banning him from other conventions. Personally, I think that is unfair.

Agreed, after all that was my contention from the get go, not about the con banning him (even for life)

Quote from: soltakss;1090410However, if he pulls the same stunt at another convention then it would show what kind of person he is.

Agreed, should he repeat the stunt he SHOULD get banned everywhere, not because of the fictional gang rape of characters 18+ but because he just springs it on unsuspecting people. And "It's just a prank bruh!" It's no excuse.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090435Problem is the spoilers to your campaign (or one shot) what we need is more classifications as Grimm suggested in his latest video on the matter, so you put a horror + rated X in your game and there's no need for anything else. I agree that springing it just like that is bad form, but we still don't know the whole of the story. Grimm is going to interview the asshat, then we will know more.



Agreed



Agreed, after all that was my contention from the get go, not about the con banning him (even for life)



Agreed, should he repeat the stunt he SHOULD get banned everywhere, not because of the fictional gang rape of characters 18+ but because he just springs it on unsuspecting people. And "It's just a prank bruh!" It's no excuse.

I'd say he should be banned everywhere if he does it a second time because rape is gross.  People can play that out if they all opt into it but by default he should have learned you need to have them opt in explicitly not any half asses implied whatever.  
One time (the current situation) is a failure to understand the rules.  A second time is a either stupid or just being an ass.  No one has to put up with that.

Quote from: soltakss;1090410You just don't do that at Convention games. Sure, if you advertised it as 18+ Horror with sexual violence then people know beforehand whether to sign up. But springing that kind of thing in-game is just bad.

No. Its worse. Its luring people into a trap just to shock and offend them. If he did not mention any of this in the con outline then he was setting people up deliberately. Or was so appallingly stupid as to think this was ok that he should be banned just for being THAT stupid.

I do alot of horror stuff thats really severe for a select set of players who want me to run that. But I also run stuff thats pretty damn dame or even very lid friendly as I've done stiff for schools and cons and have enough common sense to know whats ok and what isnt.

This isnt much different from foul mouthery at a con. And you can be kicked out for that too.

Quote from: Omega;1090489No. Its worse. Its luring people into a trap just to shock and offend them. If he did not mention any of this in the con outline then he was setting people up deliberately. Or was so appallingly stupid as to think this was ok that he should be banned just for being THAT stupid.

I do alot of horror stuff thats really severe for a select set of players who want me to run that. But I also run stuff thats pretty damn dame or even very lid friendly as I've done stiff for schools and cons and have enough common sense to know whats ok and what isnt.

This isnt much different from foul mouthery at a con. And you can be kicked out for that too.

Yeah it's bad form for sure. I really didn't think of the fact that all of their interaction can be overheard by any surrounding tables which means to me this just isn't the right place to run that type of game.

Eh. I would have just got up and left.

/shrug.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090435Agreed, should he repeat the stunt he SHOULD get banned everywhere, not because of the fictional gang rape of characters 18+ but because he just springs it on unsuspecting people. And "It's just a prank bruh!" It's no excuse.

Anyone and everyone who needs to be told that including rape in an rpg scenario without telling the players, then having to be told making a joke of it for shits and giggles is an idiot. It's not a failure of not knowing the rules either. It was some social retarded dare I say mentally ill gamer who thought running a rape fantasy scenario for a joke is normal and good thing to do. If one needs to be told "never use sexual assault in an rpg" is absolutely not all their mentally imo,  Certain topics no matter what they are should never be introduced into rpgs or general conversation without making sure that everyone else is good with the subject on hand. The guy went out of his way to be clueless on purpose and rather than apologizing admitted it was done on purpose.

Yes the players could have walked away if they were bothered. If I was told I'm playing a standard game of Pathfinder and instead I find out I'm playing out the DM creepy sexual assault fantasy I would be pretty pissed too and report the stupid socially retarded moron to the con organizers.

Quote from: Omega;1090489No. Its worse. Its luring people into a trap just to shock and offend them. If he did not mention any of this in the con outline then he was setting people up deliberately. Or was so appallingly stupid as to think this was ok that he should be banned just for being THAT stupid.

What does bother me is how some here really don't want to understand how bad something like that is. Unless one is told and more importantly fine with such a scenario. No one wants to be ambushed at the last minute and find out they are playing "Sexual assault the DM D&D fantasy" at any table. This is not an innocent mistake. This was someone who went out of his way to circumvent both the rules of the con and the what the players expected to play. For no good reason than shits and giggles. The con was in the right to do what they did even with an 18+ rating

Quote from: Omega;1090489I do alot of horror stuff thats really severe for a select set of players who want me to run that. But I also run stuff thats pretty damn dame or even very lid friendly as I've done stiff for schools and cons and have enough common sense to know whats ok and what isnt.

This is not even a lack of common sense. This was a douche bag who wanted to offend his players with a last minute bait and switch rape fantasy scenario for the sole purpose of seeing how it bothered his players. That is not something that happens randomly. This was deliberate case of the DM doing something stupid for more truly stupid reasons and giving negative exposure to the hobby. While giving more ammunition to the SJWs about rpgs and gaming having to be safe spaces.

Quote from: Omega;1090489This isnt much different from foul mouthery at a con. And you can be kicked out for that too.

I think it is worse imo. Every now and then I might drop a "fuck these shitty dice" at a table because of bad dice rolls. I apologize and only the gamers with the fake innocence routine get truly offended. My narration of a scene which would include sexual assault (which I would never do I abhor any violence of that kind) would get my ass kicked by my ex-girlfriend, brother and pretty much everyone that knew me. Both physically and verbally. I would be kicked out of the family even if it was said or worse tried tio hide behind "but it was joke" lame defence. Sexual assault even was never ever okay at any con or almost any and all tables I ran or played at. There was one thankfully rare exception and I left the table one hour into the campaign.

Why some here not saying you are want to make it out to be anything but something deliberate because it can't be anything but is beyond me. This is not an honest mistake it was an idiot adding very questionable subject matter to his rpg scenario on purpose, not telling the players, than freely admitting it was done on purpose. To me that it textbook doing it on purpose.

Quote from: tenbones;1090500Eh. I would have just got up and left.

/shrug.

How far did the session actually go though? It might have been over before anyone had a chance to really decide.

As for why a person might not leave when its apparent things are going badly.
One might be they did not want to seem impolite, even in a fucked up situation like that.
Another might be they were unsure if the DM was joking or not. Some people have really odd ideas of what constitutes a joke. EG: Stuff that might get you punched in the face.
Another might be they were hoping that after that bad start things would mellow out.
And one big one, if it is the case is... they might stick it out if they payed an attendee fee for the session. Like how GenCon works. Though at least at GenCon if a session fails you can get the ticket refunded. Usually. I had one year where they didnt. And I have sat around waiting for a DM to arrive for an event long after I should have walked. But we had nothing else to do at the time and hope springs eternal.

If tickets were involved then that may be the real reason they didnt walk.

Quote from: trechriron;1090187First, advertising an 18+ adult horror game at a convention generically doesn't give the GM license to gang rape teenagers. This is a sensitive subject to some people. You don't just spring it without having SOME kind of discussion first.
TL|DR Moronic InCel fat-beard drops FATAL on the table HARD without a postcard. Crowd fails sanity check and kicks him out. Forever. He deserves it. Unfortunately, news at 11.

I kind of disagree on "Forever. He deserves it."

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090193"Gang rape fictional teenagers"

Kick him out? Yes
Ban him? Probably
Ruin his life and that of anybody close to him that doesn't join in the witch hunt? Hell no!

Agreed.

As a fan of the original KULT rpg ... kind of ... not to mention a fan of understanding what 18+ MEANS ....
This is just nonsensical.
Me?
Leftist, defends communism, liberal values, empathetic, and so on.
I frankly applauded the idea of being "Woke" when it started.
But this is nonsense.

Horror is HORROR.
It is not supposed to be cuddly, it may very well spring uncomfortable shit on your ass!

By the way, does anyone think what the DM did was a good thing and he shouldn't have been sanctioned for it?

Quote from: soltakss;1090528By the way, does anyone think what the DM did was a good thing and he shouldn't have been sanctioned for it?

I don't view it as a bad thing or a good thing.  It was definitely a STUPID thing.

How, in today's climate, can you not have known the following chain of events would occur:

1) You spring controversial thing X on players at a public event
2.) Someone, either a participant or a passerby or a 3rd party that hears about it gets offended
3.) The offended runs to Twitter to post about it
4.) Outrage ensues and the con if forced to take a position that will most likely not be in your favor
5.) Whatever they do, it won't be enough and the online rage machine will demand more blood
6.) You, your friends, your family, your place of employment, anyone you associate with or that associates with you will become a target

We've been dealing with this shit for a couple of years now.  It's sad that this is what happens, but at this point it's not to be unexpected.

Quote from: soltakss;1090528By the way, does anyone think what the DM did was a good thing and he shouldn't have been sanctioned for it?

[strike]I agree the GM in question should have been sanctioned, if only to the point of basically being disinvited to run any more games at that con. I actually think, however, that the failure of his actions isn't so much in what he did but in how and why he did it.[/strike] (EDIT: Struck out due to later discovery of actual context of game content, see below.)

Horrifying content, even truly shocking and offensive content, being presented in a piece of horror entertainment is par for the course. What separates RPGs from novels and movies, in this context -- and I actually owe some of this reasoning to game designer and old-school wargamer Brian Gleichman, with whom I had a discussion about it many years ago on TBP when the controversial game Little Fears came out -- is that RPGs, by definition, involve a degree of personal identification, presence, and direct interaction that other media don't.  It is entirely conceivable to me that many horror creators may enjoy contemplating the reactions of those too appalled to continue further with their work, but there is a difference between contemplating it vicariously with readers or viewers one will never meet or interact with, who are reacting on behalf of characters someone else created months or years after the work was finished and released, and gleefully enjoying the real-time shock, disgust or upset in person of real people right in front of you, right now, whose emotions have been personally invested into an identity they created for the express purpose of that investment. The former has at least some impersonality, distance, and the option of caveat emptor, usually helped by being able to learn about truly difficult content before one decides whether to read/view it or not (q.v. films like Funny Games, Raw or Irreversible); the latter seems to me to boil down to nothing more than a form of emotional ambush, bullying and exploitation, which I hated in the schoolyard forty years ago and despise just as much now.

In short, content is one thing, but manner of delivery does make a difference. If your definition of fun consists of ruining other people's fun, don't be surprised if people kick you out of the party.

(Now all that said, today's Internet outrage mobs are distressingly prone to doing exactly the same thing and defining their fun as that of ruining other people's (EDIT: as reality has immediately proved). So if a mechanism to enforce proportional response doesn't develop soon it may have to be implemented.)

Jessica Price has named the guy https://twitter.com/Delafina777/status/1134547377669304320 (https://twitter.com/Delafina777/status/1134547377669304320) I will leaves it to the experts here to decide if this is doxing.

Quote from: Omega;1090323Thats the problem with the UK. They ban anything that 'might' be dangerous. Or even words that someone somewhere out there might find offensive or... dangerous!

TMNT is a good example. Someone used nunchucks to rob a store? All nunchucks are banned as are depictions of them. Ninjas are scary and use pointy things. Banned. Now its Teenage Mutant HERO Turtles! And so on ad nausium. Someone used a replica Klingon weapon in a riot or somesuch? Banned. Think they even banned pocket knives. The word Dweeb? Banned. (or at least censored). This on top of their 'internet police squad' and surveillance cameras increasingly all over the place. For your safety!
.

All that was lifted once the BBFC  got rid of that twat James Ferman.  Their censorship is a lot more subtle now.

Quote from: soltakss;1090528By the way, does anyone think what the DM did was a good thing and he shouldn't have been sanctioned for it?

If the GM had a run a scenario with underage players and underage characters where there was  a graphic scene of gang rape and provided no information regarding the content of the scenario then yes he would have deserved the sanction  . Since none of this actually happened the Social Outrage mob can go fuck themselves.

Quote from: Gagarth;1090554Jessica Price has named the guy https://twitter.com/Delafina777/status/1134547377669304320 (https://twitter.com/Delafina777/status/1134547377669304320) I will leaves it to the experts here to decide if this is doxing.

Yet some people doubted this would become a witch hunt and an attempt to destroy the guy's life. Fuck the woke morons and their enablers.

Quote from: Catelf;1090527I kind of disagree on "Forever. He deserves it."

Agreed.

As a fan of the original KULT rpg ... kind of ... not to mention a fan of understanding what 18+ MEANS ....
This is just nonsensical.
Me?
Leftist, defends communism, liberal values, empathetic, and so on.
I frankly applauded the idea of being "Woke" when it started.
But this is nonsense.

Horror is HORROR.
It is not supposed to be cuddly, it may very well spring uncomfortable shit on your ass!

So I meet another commie that defends freedom, glad to meet you, even if we don't agree in anything but freedom.

I knew from the word go that getting woke would degenerate in this, because it comes from intersectionality and post modernism. Fuck the woke morons.

Grim interviewed the dude:

https://postmortemstudios.wordpress.com/2019/06/04/rpg-interview-with-kevin-rolfe-uk-games-expos-infamous-gang-rape-games-master/?fbclid=IwAR1Nm94V5kTvvcoXxZxPM25UZozfTUUmUzUduFHt8eKoY6lF4oa8cXg_KhA

He claims he's got a recording of the session, and that these are false accusations.

I read the overview of the offending DMs game it exonerates him somewhat but man what a dumbass. There is forgetting parts of the scenario being tun and then him. Even then drugging the PCs is all that is needed. Having the drug that knocks their character out give them diarrhea just seemed really unnessary and imo uneeded element of the story. The DM really needs to get a clue.

Quote from: soltakss;1090528By the way, does anyone think what the DM did was a good thing and he shouldn't have been sanctioned for it?

Lets see, no underage characters or players, no fucking gang rape, I would say that yes, he shouldn't have been sanctioned.

I'll go even further, the snowflake that started the moral panic and witch hunt should be perma baned from all conventions for life.

https://postmortemstudios.wordpress.com/2019/06/04/rpg-interview-with-kevin-rolfe-uk-games-expos-infamous-gang-rape-games-master/

Quote from: sureshot;1090569I read the overview of the offending DMs game it exonerates him somewhat but man what a dumbass. There is forgetting parts of the scenario being tun and then him. Even then drugging the PCs is all that is needed. Having the drug that knocks their character out give them diarrhea just seemed really unnessary and imo uneeded element of the story. The DM really needs to get a clue.

No gang rape at all of underage or otherwise characters, but it only exonerates him somewhat?

Quote from: sureshot;1090569I read the overview of the offending DMs game it exonerates him somewhat but man what a dumbass. There is forgetting parts of the scenario being tun and then him. Even then drugging the PCs is all that is needed. Having the drug that knocks their character out give them diarrhea just seemed really unnessary and imo uneeded element of the story. The DM really needs to get a clue.

No fun. No purile jokes. No poo humor. Everyone be serious when playing make believe games!
Shit, this would be mild stuff for a game of Paranoia.

Quote from: soltakss;1090528By the way, does anyone think what the DM did was a good thing and he shouldn't have been sanctioned for it?

After hearing/reading the interview with Rolfe and Grim, probably yes.
Looks like the internet mob, as usual, grabbed it's pitchforks at the first sign of a rustling bush and went to work burning everything in sight and stabbing everyone who looked suspicious.

BUT AT LEAST NO ONE WILL BE OFFENDED AGAIN!

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1090576After hearing/reading the interview with Rolfe and Grim, probably yes.
Looks like the internet mob, as usual, grabbed it's pitchforks at the first sign of a rustling bush and went to work burning everything in sight and stabbing everyone who looked suspicious.

BUT AT LEAST NO ONE WILL BE OFFENDED AGAIN!

Thank $hillary praised be her name.

Quote from: sureshot;1090569I read the overview of the offending DMs game it exonerates him somewhat but man what a dumbass. There is forgetting parts of the scenario being tun and then him. Even then drugging the PCs is all that is needed. Having the drug that knocks their character out give them diarrhea just seemed really unnessary and imo uneeded element of the story. The DM really needs to get a clue.

Have you seen the Inbetweeners?

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090567So I meet another commie that defends freedom, glad to meet you, even if we don't agree in anything but freedom.

Who are you responding to here?

Quote from: Gagarth;1090580Who are you responding to here?

Forgot to quote him :

Quote from: Catelf;1090527I kind of disagree on "Forever. He deserves it."

Agreed.

As a fan of the original KULT rpg ... kind of ... not to mention a fan of understanding what 18+ MEANS ....
This is just nonsensical.
Me?
Leftist, defends communism, liberal values, empathetic, and so on.
I frankly applauded the idea of being "Woke" when it started.
But this is nonsense.

Horror is HORROR.
It is not supposed to be cuddly, it may very well spring uncomfortable shit on your ass!

Quote from: kythri;1090568Grim interviewed the dude:

https://postmortemstudios.wordpress.com/2019/06/04/rpg-interview-with-kevin-rolfe-uk-games-expos-infamous-gang-rape-games-master/?fbclid=IwAR1Nm94V5kTvvcoXxZxPM25UZozfTUUmUzUduFHt8eKoY6lF4oa8cXg_KhA

He claims he's got a recording of the session, and that these are false accusations.

Having read the interview, I fully cop here to the mistake of taking first accounts as read without checking. If this is an accurate description of the game, then everything I said about bullying and sanctions is irrelevant.

Now that I have seen who made the complaint it is quite obvious that she had not read the scenario synopsis  (a major failing of a lot players) the snowflake obviously just saw Things from the Flood and automatically thought Things from the Flood->Tales from the Loop->Kids on bikes->Stranger Things->My little Pony.  As soon she turned up with the multi- coloured dreads alarm bells should have been ringing and he should have take himself off to bed instead.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1090584Having read the interview, I fully cop here to the mistake of taking first accounts as read without checking. If this is an accurate description of the game, then everything I said about bullying and sanctions is irrelevant.

So, I'm glad that he got in his side of the story - and it sucks that the BBC failed to get a statement from him for the story. That said, though, he claims that them waking up naked and handcuffed with their bums sore was supposed to represent their diarrhea from the drug - and he just forgot to say that they were covered in poo or otherwise give clues to this explanation.

I gotta say, that sounds fishy to me. It would certainly come across as rape to me, and I suspect the diarrhea explanation is an after-the-fact excuse to get out of trouble. Even if this was really what he intended at the time, I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't realize the implication of rape in that setup.

Also, this was a planned event at the start of the third act - which is a terrible time for it, in my opinion. Whatever they did in the first two acts didn't matter - they are always going to have that happen.

Still, if he's been running games for years, they should have collected feedback from other players to see if there is any pattern of complaints. Permanently banning someone should involve more than one person's complaint.

Quote from: jhkim;1090587I gotta say, that sounds fishy to me. It would certainly come across as rape to me, and I suspect the diarrhea explanation is an after-the-fact excuse to get out of trouble.

Truthfully, I suspect it'd come off like that to me as well at the time -- but the thing is, if I thought that was what happened and I was bothered by it, I would have said something right there and then. That nobody claimed to have done so strikes me as fishy. And while it's conceivable this is a retroactive re-envisioning, I have to say that the game scenario as described (and there would be no point misrepresenting that, it would be too easily checked and verified) really makes the GM's explanation sound more plausible than not. If the genre is gross-out dark comedy (and all the players knew this, or should have known this if they'd paid any attention to the blurb), well, diarrhea is funnier than rape (as any fan of the movie Bridesmaids can confirm).

And if the players were in fact all 18+ and no actual rape was depicted, only inferred (both points also fairly easily verified), then as far as accurate accounts go I'm already less inclined to believe the popular reports than Mr. Rolfe's.

QuoteStill, if he's been running games for years, they should have collected feedback from other players to see if there is any pattern of complaints. Permanently banning someone should involve more than one person's complaint.

Agreed.

Quote from: Gagarth;1090585Now that I have seen who made the complaint it is quite obvious that she had not read the scenario synopsis  (a major failing of a lot players) the snowflake obviously just saw Things from the Flood and automatically thought Things from the Flood->Tales from the Loop->Kids on bikes->Stranger Things->My little Pony.  As soon she turned up with the multi- coloured dreads alarm bells should have been ringing and he should have take himself off to bed instead.

A link or archive or screencap for the shitlords blocked by the woke crowd?

Just listened to the interview. Interesting.

It will also be interesting to see what happens after the UKGE folks review his statement and the recordings of the play session in question. From the description given in the interview, everything is gonna hinge on the 'you wake up in the back of a van, naked, handcuffed, and with sore assholes' part: how it was presented by the GM, how the players respond, questions asked and answered, context given, etc. There's still a lot missing, but this is important context.

We shall see. I think one thing is clear to me though: don't expect the SJW Stalinist Hive Mind to be prepared to revise their opinion or drop their pitchforks, even if he's fully exonerated. They don't do 'Forgiveness'.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1090589If the genre is gross-out dark comedy (and all the players knew this, or should have known this if they'd paid any attention to the blurb), well, diarrhea is funnier than rape (as any fan of the movie Bridesmaids can confirm).

Is the text of the game blurb posted anywhere?

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1090594We shall see. I think one thing is clear to me though: don't expect the SJW Stalinist Hive Mind to be prepared to revise their opinion or drop their pitchforks, even if he's fully exonerated. They don't do 'Forgiveness'.

rpg.net is already dismissing the inverview because "Rape is fun!" Desborough was the interviewer.

Quote from: jhkim;1090596Is the text of the game blurb posted anywhere?

Unknown. I am unfortunately posting from work so cannot invest a great deal of time in searching. However, what I've read elsewhere suggests that at least a minimal description (clearly specifying at the very least 18+ age requirement) was available in the con program.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1090601Unknown. I am unfortunately posting from work so cannot invest a great deal of time in searching. However, what I've read elsewhere suggests that at least a minimal description (clearly specifying at the very least 18+ age requirement) was available in the con program.

Unfortunately, they may have removed the game from their listings. In the currently posted event schedule, there are only two games listed for "Things from the Flood", and they are run by a Darran Sims.

https://www.ukgamesexpo.co.uk/game.php?id=RPG5045

I can't see that anyone has saved the prior description.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1090597rpg.net is already dismissing the inverview because "Rape is fun!" Desborough was the interviewer.

See, this is why I wanted to get the dude's side. That isn't REMOTELY an accurate portrayal of my position on the topic.

Quote from: GRIM;1090608See, this is why I wanted to get the dude's side. That isn't REMOTELY an accurate portrayal of my position on the topic.

In case anyone took that the wrong way, I meant it in a sarcastic tone.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1090610In case anyone took that the wrong way, I meant it in a sarcastic tone.

Me thinks Grimm's sarcasm detector is a bit wonky

Quote from: jhkim;1090605Unfortunately, they may have removed the game from their listings. In the currently posted event schedule, there are only two games listed for "Things from the Flood", and they are run by a Darran Sims.

The GM is Kevin Rolfe, so clearly that's incorrect. I checked, and the pre-takedown event schedule was preserved by the Wayback Machine:
https://web.archive.org/web/20190514210802/https://www.ukgamesexpo.co.uk/bookevents.php?category=rpg

There are 8 games GMed by Kevin Rolfe. Here are the 3 that were on Friday, and used either Tales from the Loop or Things from the Flood:

The day Thatcher came to town    Kevin Rolfe    Tales from the Loop       Friday    09:00am    1:00pm    6    0    £4.00    Event Full
Oi, Oi, Savaloy (+18)    Kevin Rolfe    Things from the Flood       Friday    3:00pm    7:00pm    6    1    £4.00    
"Sorted for E's and Whizz" (+18)    Kevin Rolfe    Things from the Flood    18    Friday    8:00pm    12:00pm    6    0    £4.00    Event Full

Unfortunately, the pages with the actual event descriptions weren't preserved by the Wayback Machine. And while those pages are still up on the Games Expo website, they only show some framing details. The descriptions are gone.
https://www.ukgamesexpo.co.uk/game.php?id=RPG4816
https://www.ukgamesexpo.co.uk/game.php?id=RPG4817
https://www.ukgamesexpo.co.uk/game.php?id=RPG4818

Anyone have a screen shot of the actual game writeup in the UKGE website or con booklet?

EDIT - damn, between the time I started my reply to the thread and when I posted there were 2 more pages to the thread! D'oh!!

It would be good to see exactly what the players knew before the game.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1090320Deal with interpersonal issues like adults, not children who need a hall pass to go to the fucking bathroom.

LOL. Expecting Millennials to act like adults after being helicoptered and coddled by their parents and schools into their twenties? Not gonna happen.

Dealing with your own shit on your own isn't a skill you learn in your 20s or 30s. As with most things Millennial, I blame their parents and their teachers.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090572No gang rape at all of underage or otherwise characters, but it only exonerates him somewhat?

I still think his scenario kind of had disaster waiting to happen written all over it imo. It one thing to have player characters kidnapped and made to run for their lives. Handcuffed, nude and covered in shit is not something that many tables let alone players would be happy to be subjected to. Having read the interview a second time I get what kind of adventure he wanted to do. Yet not many including myself could pull it off properly at the game table. As well one needs the right players that one interviews ahead of time to make sure they are OK with it. I'm not sure the average con player is ready for that kind of out there rpg scenario Then again with an 18+ kind of rating it is something they should have expected. Yet my impression of the guy being social clueless still remains. The con may have acted very quickly in banning him yet welcome to the reality of new PC culture. I admit to make a rush judgement yet who here can say they never did the same,

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1090575No fun. No purile jokes. No poo humor. Everyone be serious when playing make believe games!
Shit, this would be mild stuff for a game of Paranoia.

Myself and my gaming circle have a sense of humor. Except for a few suddenly Woke, Always been Leftists, believe whatever the SJWs spout at them. Where thankfully I  no longer game with. Or will no longer came with soon. Our characters being drugged, waking up naked, handcuffed and covered in shit is not the type of rpg or scenario we are remotely interested in playing in. Especially not run by Captain In-obvious " I forget to tell players important stuff" Rolfe.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1090597rpg.net is already dismissing the inverview because "Rape is fun!" Desborough was the interviewer.

No surprise from me. It is the same way the outrage over SJGames partnering with FFG dide down. Their attempts to kill of both companies kickstarters failed spectacularly and only showed how irrelevant they are to the hobby.

Quote from: GRIM;1090608See, this is why I wanted to get the dude's side. That isn't REMOTELY an accurate portrayal of my position on the topic.

Grim, please ask the GM to post the blurb he sent into the UKGE.

Also, if he has email back from UKGE approving his event.

I wonder how much the players knew before they signed up for the session.

Quote from: sureshot;1090624Myself and my gaming circle have a sense of humor. Except for a few suddenly Woke, Always been Leftists, believe whatever the SJWs spout at them. Where thankfully I  no longer game with. Or will no longer came with soon. Our characters being drugged, waking up naked, handcuffed and covered in shit is not the type of rpg or scenario we are remotely interested in playing in. Especially not run by Captain In-obvious " I forget to tell players important stuff" Rolfe.

So in a horror game, what topics and ideas do you think are a bad idea? Nudity, forced restraint, drugs and sometimes scat are all topics that come up frequently in horror stories.

Quote from: sureshot;1090624I still think his scenario kind of had disaster waiting to happen written all over it imo. It one thing to have player characters kidnapped and made to run for their lives. Handcuffed, nude and covered in shit is not something that many tables let alone players would be happy to be subjected to. Having read the interview a second time I get what kind of adventure he wanted to do. Yet not many including myself could pull it off properly at the game table. As well one needs the right players that one interviews ahead of time to make sure they are OK with it. I'm not sure the average con player is ready for that kind of out there rpg scenario Then again with an 18+ kind of rating it is something they should have expected. Yet my impression of the guy being social clueless still remains. The con may have acted very quickly in banning him yet welcome to the reality of new PC culture. I admit to make a rush judgement yet who here can say they never did the same,

Not me, I have been guilty of rushing to judge once or twice (dozen times) when I was younger, but time and dealing with the pearlclutching woke morons taught me not to.

Quote from: sureshot;1090624No surprise from me. It is the same way the outrage over SJGames partnering with FFG dide down. Their attempts to kill of both companies kickstarters failed spectacularly and only showed how irrelevant they are to the hobby.

And that's the saddest part, we're no longer surprised by their actions, I for one am resigned to never being able to see how low will they go since they always manage to sink even further.

The good news is that maybe (just maybe) some other publishers and maybe even cons will take notice of how irrelevant the neo-puritans are and start pushing back too.

Quote from: Catelf;1090527it may very well spring uncomfortable shit on your ass!

#Literally

Quote from: kythri;1090568Grim interviewed the dude:

https://postmortemstudios.wordpress.com/2019/06/04/rpg-interview-with-kevin-rolfe-uk-games-expos-infamous-gang-rape-games-master/?fbclid=IwAR1Nm94V5kTvvcoXxZxPM25UZozfTUUmUzUduFHt8eKoY6lF4oa8cXg_KhA

He claims he's got a recording of the session, and that these are false accusations.

Then there's a record which leaves no doubt as to what really happened. And if his accusers attempt to block its release we'll know they have an agenda.

Quote from: sureshot;1090569diarrhea just seemed really unnessary and imo uneeded element of the story.

Perhaps that's why he forgot to mention it :D

Quote from: jhkim;1090587it sucks that the BBC failed to get a statement from him for the story.

Standard operating procedure really.

Quote from: jhkim;1090587he claims that them waking up naked and handcuffed with their bums sore was supposed to represent their diarrhea from the drug - and he just forgot to say that they were covered in poo or otherwise give clues to this explanation.

I gotta say, that sounds fishy to me. It would certainly come across as rape to me, and I suspect the diarrhea explanation is an after-the-fact excuse to get out of trouble. Even if this was really what he intended at the time, I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't realize the implication of rape in that setup.

Yeaaah I'm sorta there too.

I ultimately believe he was well aware of the possible implications, and deliberately left things ambiguous to provoke the imagination of the players like good horror writers do. But that only means he's being held liable for how someone interpreted his work, and if that's a thing then no art can survive.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1090589if I thought that was what happened and I was bothered by it, I would have said something right there and then. That nobody claimed to have done so strikes me as fishy.

Really? Because going with the flow strikes me as textbook human behavior.

Quote from: jhkim;1090596Is the text of the game blurb posted anywhere?

Quote from: Spinachcat;1090616Anyone have a screen shot of the actual game writeup in the UKGE website or con booklet?

Quote from: Pat;1090614Unfortunately, the pages with the actual event descriptions weren't preserved by the Wayback Machine. And while those pages are still up on the Games Expo website, they only show some framing details. The descriptions are gone.
https://www.ukgamesexpo.co.uk/game.php?id=RPG4816
https://www.ukgamesexpo.co.uk/game.php?id=RPG4817
https://www.ukgamesexpo.co.uk/game.php?id=RPG4818

They were however preserved on the Google cache.

• The day Thatcher came to town (https://archive.is/lqKlQ)
  
• Oi, Oi, Savaloy (+18) (https://archive.is/maGib)
  
• "Sorted for E's and Whizz" (+18) (https://archive.is/l2cuy)
  

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090613Me thinks Grimm's sarcasm detector is a bit wonky

A large part of the problem is, much like his detractors, I don't think he has one.

Oy vey, this is EXACTLY why I put "MATURE AUDIENCES ONLY" on my not PG-13 games.

Years ago, I ran a Stormbringer one-shot where the PCs began crucified and dying. I had a player lose his crap which made no sense because obviously that situation was going to change by outside forces for the session to continue.

I've not done "covered in your own shit" before, but I've definitely done "you wake up in a bad place, how did you get here? how do you get out?"

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1090641#Literally



Then there's a record which leaves no doubt as to what really happened. And if his accusers attempt to block its release we'll know they have an agenda.



Perhaps that's why he forgot to mention it :D



Standard operating procedure really.



Yeaaah I'm sorta there too.

I ultimately believe he was well aware of the possible implications, and deliberately left things ambiguous to provoke the imagination of the players like good horror writers do. But that only means he's being held liable for how someone interpreted his work, and if that's a thing then no art can survive.



Really? Because going with the flow strikes me as textbook human behavior.







They were however preserved on the Google cache.

• The day Thatcher came to town (https://archive.is/lqKlQ)
  
• Oi, Oi, Savaloy (+18) (https://archive.is/maGib)
  
• "Sorted for E's and Whizz" (+18) (https://archive.is/l2cuy)
  

A large part of the problem is, much like his detractors, I don't think he has one.

Thanks for the links

Or maybe he (Grim) has had way too much idiots reading that infamous article headline and didn't bother to read the rest just ran with it to destroy him. SOP for the woke crowd.

Quote from: soltakss;1090528By the way, does anyone think what the DM did was a good thing and he shouldn't have been sanctioned for it?

No. Because it isnt a good thing unless you are at an explicitly adult con where it would be ok. Anywhere else? No. You just do not fuck with people like that out of the blue unless they ask you to. Especially in an RPG.

Oh but there are a select few who would have seen this as GREAT! These are the sorts who obsess over "muh immershun!" and cannot stand any sort of pre-game discussion, outline, any of that. I've had to deal with quite a few of these types. Some way the hell off the deep end. I was once told that "My character meets your character" was "too much plot!"... well the new "plot" is your character, and you, are now out of the session.

But yes at a con where such adult themes are ok or theres a room set aside for mature sessions then running such a thing is ok. Springing it on unsuspecting players is the diametric opposite of ok except in some specific cases where the players actually request this or the RPG somehow has these themes baked in such that everyone knows what might be on the line.

I think one example might be the Cyberpunk 2020 horror setting Nights Edge. Any given White Wolf RPG, and one or two of the more obscure violence/vice driven ones out there.

What is the game THINGS FROM THE FLOOD that the Naughty GM was running?

Anyone know anything specific? Is the game normally on the creepy side? Kinda like Kult? Or it more like Chill?

By the reading of the links provided by Anon Adderlan this one seems to be the game : https://archive.is/maGib (https://archive.is/maGib)

"Due to the PC's being Grubby little teenage boys on a club 18/30 holiday, am saying this is an 18+ event. it maybe messy "

Well that turned out to be true, prophetic and an understatement:

True: They wake up with sore bums and covered in shit.

Prophetic: Look the fine mess it managed to stir.

Understatement: What a fucking huge mess this little game managed to stir. Hopefully he has that recording and it poves his innocence, it would be another nail in the woke morons cult coffin.

Should Mature Audiences not be 18+ anymore? Maybe list the games as 30+?

At what age in 2019 can we assume people can handle their own issues?

65?

Quote from: kythri;1090568Grim interviewed the dude:

https://postmortemstudios.wordpress.com/2019/06/04/rpg-interview-with-kevin-rolfe-uk-games-expos-infamous-gang-rape-games-master/?fbclid=IwAR1Nm94V5kTvvcoXxZxPM25UZozfTUUmUzUduFHt8eKoY6lF4oa8cXg_KhA

He claims he's got a recording of the session, and that these are false accusations.

If that is the case then why did he act so weird afterwards?

But if it was a frame up of the DM then anyone want to place bets that the person who did it is not punished at all?

Quote from: Spinachcat;1090651Should Mature Audiences not be 18+ anymore? Maybe list the games as 30+?

At what age in 2019 can we assume people can handle their own issues?

65?

It depends on how woke they are, the wokier they get the more you have to push maturity towards death bed. Haven't we seen 30+ and even 60+ woke morons shitting on their pants because $hillary lost?

Quote from: Omega;1090652But if it was a frame up of the DM then anyone want to place bets that the person who did it is not punished at all?

In 2019? I'd bet that if its 100% proven as a frame-up, the asshat won't be punished and the ban on the GM probably won't be lifted either.

Its just too easy to roll with the Twitter narrative.

Quote from: Gagarth;1090585Now that I have seen who made the complaint it is quite obvious that she had not read the scenario synopsis  (a major failing of a lot players) the snowflake obviously just saw Things from the Flood and automatically thought Things from the Flood->Tales from the Loop->Kids on bikes->Stranger Things->My little Pony.  As soon she turned up with the multi- coloured dreads alarm bells should have been ringing and he should have take himself off to bed instead.

So he did have a synopsis as a handout or something? That changes a-lot. The claims were that he did none of that. No warning. Whammo!

Still seems not something wise to tun at a family friendly con.

In retrospect is was VERY not something wise to run at a family friendly con.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1090651Should Mature Audiences not be 18+ anymore? Maybe list the games as 30+?

At what age in 2019 can we assume people can handle their own issues?

65?

At this point? Who knows. People seem to be getting progressively stupider with each passing year, not just each generation now.

And according to that roster list yes you did have to pay a fee to sit down at the table.

THAT is likely why the players didnt walk. And one or more may have been willing to put up with some unpleasantness at the start if the rest of the session was good. Or didnt think it was as big an issue as the one player did?

Quote from: Omega;1090658At this point? Who knows. People seem to be getting progressively stupider with each passing year, not just each generation now.

I remember a very old saying, "When everyone around you seems to be an ass hole, the problem may not be with them."

Personally, I find this whole thing to be confusing and a non-issue that stirs up a pot of shit that, were I not to know any better, seems almost deliberately designed to get this site and TBP grumbling.

There's nothing confusing here.

1) GM lists his games as 18+ at the con with very limited info in his teaser blurb. UKGE approves his events.

2) GM runs a "body horror" rpg session where the PCs are somehow, perhaps mysteriously violated.

3) One player has an online hissy fit, lying about what happened in the game.

4) The UK MSM, an MSM even more fucked up than the USA MSM, runs with the liar's story and does zero actual journalism.

5) The usual suspects on social media screech for the GM to "suffer" for daring to run that game.

The important piece to note is #1. The UKGE claims to be a "family friendly con" which is a laughably bullshit marketing spam, but they clearly offer people the option to run 18+ games which by their very definition, won't be family friendly. And we know that the teaser blurb was approved by whoever runs their RPG section as the game was put on the con roster and fully approved.

Body Horror is a sexually invasive genre. Look at Alien. The monster shoves its dick down your throat and its baby bursts out your chest. Look at vampires. The monster gives you sexual ecstasy by sucking out your blood. But in the case of Vamps and Aliens, we keep a veneer of distance from the sexuality of the body horror. This GM? He abducted his PCs and they awoke with ass pains.

RPGs are about immersion. Immersion in public in a body horror game is going to cause some squick in some people. It's why its a poor genre to ever use at a convention with strangers.

Especially in our current era which has clearly gone full retard.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1090648What is the game THINGS FROM THE FLOOD that the Naughty GM was running?

Anyone know anything specific? Is the game normally on the creepy side? Kinda like Kult? Or it more like Chill?

It's the follow up to Tales from The Loop. Hence the mention of Loop in the GM's blurb.  Kickstarter details here:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1192053011/things-from-the-flood-sequel-to-tales-from-the-loo?ref=discovery&term=things%20from%20the%20flood (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1192053011/things-from-the-flood-sequel-to-tales-from-the-loo?ref=discovery&term=things%20from%20the%20flood)


It says: "You're still balancing day to day life with solving exciting mysteries with your friends. But this is a darker time, and the stakes are higher." I can't find the word horror mentioned on the page.  

I'd say if Tales from The Loop is roughly Stranger Things then in Things the kids are older and it's Scooby Doo time. I don't think there's any implicit suggestions of any sexual content that would raise it to say Buffy the Vampire Slayer in terms of gang-of-kids expectations.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1090670The UKGE claims to be a "family friendly con" which is a laughably bullshit marketing spam.

It is a family friendly con.

I didn't attend this year but for the last few years I've attended with my partner and kids. They run intro to RPG sessions for young kids - for ages 8 - 11 (I think). [My daughter was too old - and already a roleplayer so didn't join in for that.]  They run board game sessions to teach new or interresting board games to families. This is/was done by an organisation that runs after school clubs for playing board games. We - the family - discovered Hey That's My Fish in one of their sessions a few years ago.

It is very noticeable how many family groups you see wandering around the trade hall. Meanwhile the roleplaying is mostly in the Hilton - in smallish rooms. That's a hotel (obvs!)  - there's bars and food.  I think it's perfectly possible to be a business - hotel or convention - that is family friendly and simultaneously serves child and adult interests.

The lengths RPGnet will go to shit all over those it deems non-people is amazing. God I hope the recording comes out soon, that'll put a pretty solid end to the whole thing no matter who is right.

Quote from: Autumnborn;1090678The lengths RPGnet will go to shit all over those it deems non-people is amazing. God I hope the recording comes out soon, that'll put a pretty solid end to the whole thing no matter who is right.

If it doesn't favour the Rpgnet view then they'll just ignore it and ban anyone who attempts to bring it up.

That much ought to be clear by now.

Quote from: Omega;1090655So he did have a synopsis as a handout or something? That changes a-lot. The claims were that he did none of that. No warning. Whammo!

Still seems not something wise to tun at a family friendly con.

In retrospect is was VERY not something wise to run at a family friendly con.

The synopsis would have been on the website and  they have conveniently deleted them and the title alone "Oi Oi Savaloy" should have been a major clue to any one with half a brain this was not going be standard Things from the Flood scenario.  It is a bit like someone signing up to a Kult scenario with the title "Scubby Doo on Mystery Island" and then complaining it wasn't vanilla Kult.  Also by the look it the TRPGs where not on the main floor (edit:see post 3 up confirming this) and you would think the con staff would have a all the 18+ games in one room .

Quote from: Anselyn;1090676It is a family friendly con.

Why is a "family friendly" con approving 18+ content?

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1090706Why is a "family friendly" con approving 18+ content?

They are calling university students kids nowadays.

Seriously tho, it doesn't jive, you have to pick one or the other, or have a special room for the 18+ content.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1090641Really? Because going with the flow strikes me as textbook human behavior.

True. That's because in most instances the discomfort of challenging the flow is greater than the discomfort caused by accepting it at that moment. But if, by definition, your discomfort wasn't enough to drive you to speak up, then I have a hard time believing that discomfort constitutes such a trauma as to justify the kind of excessive response seen here.

If you only tell the chef the meal was too spicy for your taste after you completely finish it, the restaurant is under no obligation to give you your money back.

Quote from: Anselyn;1090676It is a family friendly con.

Did they have Game of Thrones merchandise? I bet they did. Additionally, as an aside, I wonder how many players of that con game have been watching every GoT episode religiously.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090646Or maybe he (Grim) has had way too much idiots reading that infamous article headline and didn't bother to read the rest just ran with it to destroy him. SOP for the woke crowd.

If we are to excuse Grim's behavior, then we need to excuse those idiots' behavior too, because both are attacking strawmen and leaving out details which contradict their assessments.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1090648What is the game THINGS FROM THE FLOOD that the Naughty GM was running?

Anyone know anything specific? Is the game normally on the creepy side? Kinda like Kult? Or it more like Chill?

Great game from Fria Ligan most concisely described as:

• Tales from the Loop: First part of "Steven King's: IT"
• Things from the Flood: Second part of "Steven King's: IT"
  

Quote from: Tanin Wulf;1090663I remember a very old saying, "When everyone around you seems to be an ass hole, the problem may not be with them."

While statistically sound, the exact opposite has been true in my experience.

But maybe that's because I know I'm an asshole :D

Quote from: Spinachcat;1090670The UKGE claims to be a "family friendly con" which is a laughably bullshit marketing spam, but they clearly offer people the option to run 18+ games which by their very definition, won't be family friendly.

Good point.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1090670Body Horror is a sexually invasive genre. Look at Alien.

The license of which is ironically held by the same publisher who published the game the GM in question ran.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1090670The monster shoves its dick down your throat and its baby bursts out your chest.

A dick I may add, which comes out of a spider vagina.

The secret to #Alien's success is that it took advantage of so many primal anxieties.

Quote from: Autumnborn;1090678God I hope the recording comes out soon, that'll put a pretty solid end to the whole thing no matter who is right.

Sadly I think the recording would just get everything started all over again.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1090710True. That's because in most instances the discomfort of challenging the flow is greater than the discomfort caused by accepting it at that moment. But if, by definition, your discomfort wasn't enough to drive you to speak up, then I have a hard time believing that discomfort constitutes such a trauma as to justify the kind of excessive response seen here.

If you only tell the chef the meal was too spicy for your taste after you completely finish it, the restaurant is under no obligation to give you your money back.

Great point.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1090743Great game from Fria Ligan most concisely described as:

• Tales from the Loop: First part of "Steven King's: IT"
• Things from the Flood: Second part of "Steven King's: IT"
  

So, one should only have a sex scene between the underage PCs in Things From The Flood?

An no game can have PC's killing anything. That's murder! REDRUM!

No way I am going to be a GM at an UK or USA convention. Nope.

I agree with Grim Jim: one of these days the SJWs will have blood on their hands (metaphorically speaking).

Quote from: Lychee of the Exchequer;1090765No way I am going to be a GM at an UK or USA convention. Nope.

I agree with Grim Jim: one of these days the SJWs will have blood on their hands (metaphorically speaking).

They already do, at least two innocent men committed suicide because of one false allegations and the other allegations without proof thanks to the poundmetoo asshats, the first in Argentina his GF accused him and latter admitted it was a lie, but the guy killed himself thanks to the woke brigade. The other here in México an artist killed himself because nobody would believe in him after being accused without proof by the woke crowd.

And this are the ones I know of, there are probably more.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090179Besides it being an horror 18+ game what other warning do they need?

When you bend the knee for the small seemingly reasonable requests you get the unholy inquisition.

Only right the player has is to quit the game.

Their calls for tolerance, inclusivity, restraint, modesty and sensitivity are but a disguise for them to get the power  to control what you're allowed to do always.

I didn't bend the knee to the Christian censors, not gonna do it to the SocJus Cult zealots.

The problem here started with a socially maladjusted nitwit who thinks that anyone who jumps in to an R 18 rated game (and doesn't realize his subject matter is NC-17) should know what's coming to them. Fucking christ have some common sense and tell your players what to expect first!  If this logic doesn't make much sense, consider the following: Deadpool, John Wick and Basic Instinct are R rated movies. But movies with graphic rape are usually unrated or NC 17. Of the three movies I mention: one movie my eight year old wants to see but can't (Deadpool) unless I stand in front of the TV and turn down the volume about twenty times, a second is R rated and perfectly fine for him to see (John Wick), and the third one he doesn't know exists and will probably watch in his mid teens when the parents are out of the house. But at no point do any of these movies grapple with a bunch of teens being sexually abused and gang raped. I have to look through a mess of mostly unrated, triple X and NC-17 content films for that sort of content.

As a 48 year old adult white straight male atheist who is extremely pro free speech and thinks the illusion of left/right has turned our contemporary dialogue into retarded nonsense, even I can see that this guy was in the wrong.*


EDIT: okay after typing that it's not really fair to compare films to verbal game content, but consider this: if you're going to have graphic and potentially troubling content at the table, at least state up front as any common sense product does that something bad is coming. It gives people a chance to opt out right away, especially over subjects that can relate a potential player to a real life trauma. My point above is that "18+" does not equal "you're old enough for the rapes, my friends." If you or this GM don't relate to that sentiment, then consider yourselves to have led charmed lives.

EDIT 2: I'm not interested in the "social shaming" and other SJW garbage, which I hate. But as always one way for people to get better results in social situations is to reflect some sort of social awareness and realization that just because this guy is so enmeshed in violent concepts that it doesn't mean his players are, or even realize it's his target. This is a two way street; people need to take more personal responsibility on both sides, with the player accepting they can walk away from the table (as you indicate) but the GM also realizing he should be clear in his story intent before hand.


*He's not wrong for his content. He's wrong for not explaining his intent in a collaborative experience where different people can have very different notions of what "18+" means. As I said, I'm 48 and I would politely bow out of a game with the content he was offering as I don't find that shit in the least bit entertaining or pleasant, and I'm not even someone who might have experienced such trauma in real life; I just don't need that sort of crap in my imaginary entertainment experience.


EDIT 3: okay I feel its important to make sure anyone starting this thread ends with this:
https://postmortemstudios.wordpress.com/2019/06/04/rpg-interview-with-kevin-rolfe-uk-games-expos-infamous-gang-rape-games-master/

Because now I think the real subject is, "How to narrate as a GM and mitigate confusion with your players."

Quote from: camazotz;1090779But at no point do any of these movies grapple with a bunch of teens being sexually abused and gang raped.

And apparently neither did the game in question!

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090768They already do, at least two innocent men committed suicide because of one false allegations and the other allegations without proof thanks to the poundmetoo asshats, the first in Argentina his GF accused him and latter admitted it was a lie, but the guy killed himself thanks to the woke brigade. The other here in México an artist killed himself because nobody would believe in him after being accused without proof by the woke crowd.

And this are the ones I know of, there are probably more.

And do you know what the response of some of the world class asshats at TBP was when it was pointed out that innocent men were suffering from false allegations? I fucking kid you not, "that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make". Like HOLY FUCK! Are you kidding me? You're willing to pay the price of someone else's life for a fucking lie? That is the character of the "woke" crowd.

I wish I kept the link handy, but I didn't think to and can't find it now. I wish I could say you guys would be amazed. But I doubt you would be.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1090781And do you know what the response of some of the world class asshats at TBP was when it was pointed out that innocent men were suffering from false allegations? I fucking kid you not, "that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make". Like HOLY FUCK! Are you kidding me? You're willing to pay the price of someone else's life for a fucking lie? That is the character of the "woke" crowd.

I wish I kept the link handy, but I didn't think to and can't find it now. I wish I could say you guys would be amazed. But I doubt you would be.

Quick some troll get in there and accuse a mod of sexual assault.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1090781And do you know what the response of some of the world class asshats at TBP was when it was pointed out that innocent men were suffering from false allegations? I fucking kid you not, "that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make". Like HOLY FUCK! Are you kidding me? You're willing to pay the price of someone else's life for a fucking lie? That is the character of the "woke" crowd.

I wish I kept the link handy, but I didn't think to and can't find it now. I wish I could say you guys would be amazed. But I doubt you would be.

It's good to have somewhere to go when you need to channel some pure evil into your villains.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1090670There's nothing confusing here.

1) GM lists his games as 18+ at the con with very limited info in his teaser blurb. UKGE approves his events.

2) GM runs a "body horror" rpg session where the PCs are somehow, perhaps mysteriously violated.

3) One player has an online hissy fit, lying about what happened in the game.

4) The UK MSM, an MSM even more fucked up than the USA MSM, runs with the liar's story and does zero actual journalism.

5) The usual suspects on social media screech for the GM to "suffer" for daring to run that game.

The important piece to note is #1. The UKGE claims to be a "family friendly con" which is a laughably bullshit marketing spam, but they clearly offer people the option to run 18+ games which by their very definition, won't be family friendly. And we know that the teaser blurb was approved by whoever runs their RPG section as the game was put on the con roster and fully approved.

Body Horror is a sexually invasive genre. Look at Alien. The monster shoves its dick down your throat and its baby bursts out your chest. Look at vampires. The monster gives you sexual ecstasy by sucking out your blood. But in the case of Vamps and Aliens, we keep a veneer of distance from the sexuality of the body horror. This GM? He abducted his PCs and they awoke with ass pains.

RPGs are about immersion. Immersion in public in a body horror game is going to cause some squick in some people. It's why its a poor genre to ever use at a convention with strangers.

Especially in our current era which has clearly gone full retard.

Well maybe if the GM had run with metaphor that required interpretation then he would have pulled it off. But there's a giant difference between metaphor and "you just got raped."

I agree though, there are games you run in the privacy of your own home with like minded people, and then there is a completely different kind of game you run in public with strangers.

EDIT:
And because its important: the actual Gm talking about what happened: https://postmortemstudios.wordpress.com/2019/06/04/rpg-interview-with-kevin-rolfe-uk-games-expos-infamous-gang-rape-games-master/

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1090780And apparently neither did the game in question!

Fuck. Okay so must I dig through  for a link to find out what really happened? Going back through the posts.....now.

EDIT: What are you alluding to that I am missing here?
https://archive.is/5UN37

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090193"Gang rape fictional teenagers"

Kick him out? Yes
Ban him? Probably
Ruin his life and that of anybody close to him that doesn't join in the witch hunt? Hell no!

I'm thinking none of the above actions were appropriate. "Cancel his games for the specific module" would have been enough as far as I am concerned. The rest is modern society's overkill mentality at work.

Quote from: camazotz;1090779one movie my eight year old wants to see but can't (Deadpool) unless I stand in front of the TV and turn down the volume about twenty times,

A bit out of context, but isn't that part of why they made the Once Upon a Deadpool with Fred Savage?

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1090781And do you know what the response of some of the world class asshats at TBP was when it was pointed out that innocent men were suffering from false allegations? I fucking kid you not, "that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make". Like HOLY FUCK! Are you kidding me? You're willing to pay the price of someone else's life for a fucking lie? That is the character of the "woke" crowd.

I wish I kept the link handy, but I didn't think to and can't find it now. I wish I could say you guys would be amazed. But I doubt you would be.

I have seen more than one feminazi say exactly the same thing. They are willing to pay the price of killing innocent men in the of chance they get one guilty. The true horror being THEY aren't paying shit, it's those innocent men who are paying the price for the lies and the lynching mob.

The same attitude led to many innocent black men being lynched in the not so distant past of the USA, both times promoted by the same party. Funny how that works.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1090706Why is a "family friendly" con approving 18+ content?

Because it's "family friendly" not exclusively for families. If I took my kids to see a family friendly film at the cinema then I wouldn't object to the adult content of other films playing. Would you?

Quote from: camazotz;1090787Fuck. Okay so must I dig through  for a link to find out what really happened? Going back through the posts.....now.

No, need, here, have a link https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?40678-Interview-with-the-GM-at-the-centre-of-the-UKGE-gang-rape-kerfuffle

Quote from: camazotz;1090788I'm thinking none of the above actions were appropriate. "Cancel his games for the specific module" would have been enough as far as I am concerned. The rest is modern society's overkill mentality at work.

And after watching Grim's video about the interview I agree with you, mainly because it seems there were no underage players, PCs or gang rape of any kind.

Quote from: Anselyn;1090791Because it's "family friendly" not exclusively for families. If I took my kids to see a family friendly film at the cinema then I wouldn't object to the adult content of other films playing. Would you?

This implies separated rooms for different content, which would negate what some argued as a good reason to ban the dude. The probability of a kid walking behind while the adult content was being described. I don't know if infact UKGE has those separate rooms or not.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090792No, need, here, have a link https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?40678-Interview-with-the-GM-at-the-centre-of-the-UKGE-gang-rape-kerfuffle

Oooh okay now that is really interesting. First: whole scenario sounds generally disgusting, not my cup of tea (but hey, whatever everyone else enjoys), but aside from that, what is most intriguing is the idea that what the GM was going for was not what the players interpreted, and he realizes that at some point it got off the rails. I've had that happen to me as a GM, in fact as recently as last Saturday I had my players asking "what about that guy you mentioned with the king" and I was like, "what are you talking about?!?!?" as I had only described the king, his three wives, and the three women he had taken as political prisoners. I eventually realized that while I hadn't specifically mentioned another person up there, the players inferred it from something I said, plus an expectation that had built up from a prior session in which they became convinced there was a conspirator who kidnapped the women and was part of the escort of the three political prisoners....so when they got to this meeting point their imaginations filled in some gaps I wasn't aware of.

Thanks for the link. Technically what I posted earlier still stands but apparently as a generality to a fictitious scenario.

Quote from: camazotz;1090796Oooh okay now that is really interesting. First: whole scenario sounds generally disgusting, not my cup of tea, but aside from that, what is most intriguing is the idea that what the GM was going for was not what the players interpreted, and he realizes that at some point it got off the rails. I've had that happen to me as a GM, in fact as recently as last Saturday I had my players asking "what about that guy you mentioned with the king" and I was like, "what are you talking about?!?!?" as I had only described the king, his three wives, and the three women he had taken as political prisoners. I eventually realized that while I hadn't specifically mentioned another person up there, the players inferred it from something I said, plus an expectation that had built up from a prior session in which they became convinced there was a conspirator who kidnapped the women and was part of the escort of the three political prisoners....so when they got to this meeting point their imaginations filled in some gaps I wasn't aware of.

Thanks for the link. Technically what I posted earlier still stands but apparently as a generality to a fictitious scenario.

One player, after the session had ended, only one. And surprise, surprise it seems it was a danger hair.

Quote from: camazotzBut at no point do any of these movies grapple with a bunch of teens being sexually abused and gang raped.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1090780And apparently neither did the game in question!

By his own account, the GM had the characters all roofied, waking up naked and handcuffed with their assholes sore - with no explanation given. He claims that their asses being sore was from diarrhea, but he gave no clue of that to the players. Even if the victim isn't penetrated - if a criminal knocks them out, strips them naked, and handcuffs them to others - that's likely to be considered sexual abuse.

More broadly, speaking in general here as someone who has run both kid-friendly and mature-theme games at conventions. There's a lot of middle ground between being kid-friendly, and having a scene like this. Mature themes (18+) can just mean bad language or references to consensual sex. Having planned rape (or implied rape) of PCs calls for a different flag or warning, in my opinion.

When I ran Bluebeard's Bride, say, I definitely asked players about their lines. In my last run, at Kublacon a few weeks ago, one of my players said they weren't comfortable with having sexual violence to PCs. And I'm very glad that I asked.

Quote from: jhkim;1090799By his own account, the GM had the characters all roofied, waking up naked and handcuffed with their assholes sore - with no explanation given. He claims that their asses being sore was from diarrhea, but he gave no clue of that to the players. Even if the victim isn't penetrated - if a criminal knocks them out, strips them naked, and handcuffs them to others - that's likely to be considered sexual abuse.

Perhaps, but many people, myself included, are/were under the impression that rape was explicit, and not inferred.
In my opinion, that does change the equation to some degree. Perhaps the GM is trying to cover his tracks, perhaps he did want them to infer sexual abuse. But the horror genre does often contain sexual undertones and overtones. A monster face-raping people and impregnating them, for example.
But perhaps the GM did honestly not intend the players to infer sexual assault. How can we determine? Again, in my opinion, this situation has become a lot more murky than if some meathead had an explicit moment in their game where they said "You got raped!"

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1090800Perhaps, but many people, myself included, are/were under the impression that rape was explicit, and not inferred.
In my opinion, that does change the equation to some degree. Perhaps the GM is trying to cover his tracks, perhaps he did want them to infer sexual abuse. But the horror genre does often contain sexual undertones and overtones. A monster face-raping people and impregnating them, for example.
But perhaps the GM did honestly not intend the players to infer sexual assault. How can we determine? Again, in my opinion, this situation has become a lot more murky than if some meathead had an explicit moment in their game where they said "You got raped!"

I don't think that implied rape when someone was unconscious and powerless is necessarily better than an explicit statement of "You got raped." Neither of them are actual violence, but it's not something to spring on players who aren't prepared for it.

I agree that rape and/or sexual overtones can be a part of horror. i.e. Rosemary's Baby, etc.  My previous games of Bluebeard's Bride included sexual violence.  But players knew what they were getting into.  I don't think that a generic "18+" or description that things could get "messy" is sufficient to cover this.

Quote from: jhkim;1090807I don't think that implied rape when someone was unconscious and powerless is necessarily better than an explicit statement of "You got raped." Neither of them are actual violence, but it's not something to spring on players who aren't prepared for it.

You're going to have to provide some evidence that the GM was intending to imply rape for that to stick.

Quote from: jhkimI don't think that implied rape when someone was unconscious and powerless is necessarily better than an explicit statement of "You got raped." Neither of them are actual violence, but it's not something to spring on players who aren't prepared for it.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1090815You're going to have to provide some evidence that the GM was intending to imply rape for that to stick.

Regardless of his intent, he's still responsible for what a reasonable person would conclude. By his own account, he had a planned scene where all the characters were roofied, waking up naked and handcuffed with their assholes sore - then set off to be hunted down.

If he didn't think that implied rape, then he is a sufficiently clueless idiot that UKGE should still consider banning him - on the grounds that such cluelessness combined with his proclivities may inevitably lead to more problems in the future.

Again, I do think that his history should be taken into account - checking with other players in his other games and such. But I think the excuse of "It was actually diarrhea, and I just forgot to mention the shit." is really weak sauce.

Quote from: jhkim;1090824Regardless of his intent, he's still responsible for what a reasonable person would conclude. By his own account, he had a planned scene where all the characters were roofied, waking up naked and handcuffed with their assholes sore - then set off to be hunted down.

By his own account, it was a scat joke, with diahrehha covered clothes taken off as the reason they were naked. It's thin, I grant you, but not out of probability that he just didn't think along those lines.

QuoteIf he didn't think that implied rape, then he is a sufficiently clueless idiot that UKGE should still consider banning him - on the grounds that such cluelessness combined with his proclivities may inevitably lead to more problems in the future.

I think there are a ton of clueless idiots out there at conventions. Nitwits like Anita Sarkeesian invited to speak at Gen Con. Do we really want to go down the road of banning people for being clueless idiots? Whose critieria shall we use?

QuoteAgain, I do think that his history should be taken into account - checking with other players in his other games and such. But I think the excuse of "It was actually diarrhea, and I just forgot to mention the shit." is really weak sauce.

Huh huh. Diarrhea sauce. *ahem*

May-fucking-be. Are we going to ban GMs for forgetting to mention things?

I think the explanation is weak, and I think the whole scenario was ill-conceived. But I don't find it out of the realm of possibility, considering there are a lot of people playing rpgs with, shall we say, eccentric personalities?

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1090706Why is a "family friendly" con approving 18+ content?

They may have just wrongly assumed that 18+ meant scary monsters or lots of combat.

I think the media reports are terrible but it was not a far stretch to imagine that rape was meant since he has said he never mentioned why their bums were sore.

Quote from: jhkimAgain, I do think that his history should be taken into account - checking with other players in his other games and such. But I think the excuse of "It was actually diarrhea, and I just forgot to mention the shit." is really weak sauce.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1090828Huh huh. Diarrhea sauce. *ahem*

May-fucking-be. Are we going to ban GMs for forgetting to mention things?

I think the explanation is weak, and I think the whole scenario was ill-conceived. But I don't find it out of the realm of possibility, considering there are a lot of people playing rpgs with, shall we say, eccentric personalities?

Hehehe. Sauce...

So I don't know this dude - I'd want to hear more from other people who knew him before judging. But I find the diarrhea explanation offputting at best.

Yeah, cons have a lot of eccentric personalities. But there is a point at which someone's eccentricity / bad taste / bad judgement goes too far, such that it detracts from people's enjoyment. I don't know enough to decide about this guy, but it's possible for someone to be at that point. If I was in charge of the con, I don't need to look inside their soul to see if they're really pure or not - I'm just deciding for my event. If they're detracting from the event, then I'd ban them. For their personal games, people can decide for themselves if they want to play with him or not.

Quote from: jhkim;1090824Regardless of his intent, he's still responsible for what a reasonable person would conclude. By his own account, he had a planned scene where all the characters were roofied, waking up naked and handcuffed with their assholes sore - then set off to be hunted down.

If he didn't think that implied rape, then he is a sufficiently clueless idiot that UKGE should still consider banning him - on the grounds that such cluelessness combined with his proclivities may inevitably lead to more problems in the future.

Again, I do think that his history should be taken into account - checking with other players in his other games and such. But I think the excuse of "It was actually diarrhea, and I just forgot to mention the shit." is really weak sauce.

Why don't you just fuck off you pseudo  woke cunt.  Here is more of your style of justice you spineless bastard.
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Here is the game listing

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Before non-British lynch mob enablers like Jkhim comment do yourself a favour and educate yourself on Essex lad culture, club 18/30 holidays and Inbetweeners.  The dreadlocked fucking woke scumbug that started all this would damn well know what that would entail.    What happened at that con does not justify the mob justice that is going on. Given the climate we are in he was stupid to run that scenario not knowing who was going to turn up, but something needs to be done about the woke lynch mobs.

Another thing the player characters were all male.  In Film and TV dramas  anything were a male is concerned is permissible even rape or the threat  of rape on male character is played for laughs (e.g. Happy! S1E7) and parts of male genitalia  found at crime scenes are  joked about in prime time shows like Bones.  Even the BBC saw nothing wrong with  a scene in Happy Valleys were a middle-aged police woman drags a boy into the back of a car and punches him in the balls.


In the mean time here is a few of things that will probably trigger Jkhim.

[video]https://www.facebook.com/BestInbetweenersMoments/videos/1750183215220472/[/youtube]

[video=youtube_share;7sq2Xc1BiZk]https://youtu.be/7sq2Xc1BiZk[/youtube]

https://youtu.be/REZ9le2qFD8 (https://youtu.be/REZ9le2qFD8)

[video=youtube;ln1m-PEfwUI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln1m-PEfwUI[/youtube]

The country which gave us the english language, with all its poetic splendour, the jury system and common law, the constitutional monarchy, parliamentary government and presumption of innocence, the country which started the industrial revolution and brought literacy and industry to a quarter of the globe, a country which was the heart of the Reformation and the Enlightenment.

This country, says this intemperate young lad, now gives us lads shitting themselves while drunk, or possibly raped up the bum, and calls this artistic fiction.

Or possibly the GM was just a numpty.

Quote from: RatmanI think there are a ton of clueless idiots out there at conventions. Nitwits like Anita Sarkeesian invited to speak at Gen Con. Do we really want to go down the road of banning people for being clueless idiots? Whose critieria shall we use?

Mine, obviously.

UKers, please explain the references to "grubby little Essex boys" and "club 18/30" so we Americans have a clearer understanding.

If you want a family friendly con, you don't have 18+ events. You limit games to PG-13 themes and your vendors don't sell products from R-rated IPs in the dealers room. Otherwise, you're full of shit and just using "family friendly" as a marketing slogan.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1090852UKers, please explain the references to "grubby little Essex boys" and "club 18/30" so we Americans have a clearer understanding.

Essex boys were infamous in, IIRC, the 1990s, as particularly laddish youth and young men from the county of Essex in southern England- real dudebros if you will. Club 18/30 was an actual holiday company (which only ceased trading last year), which sent young people, aged 18-30 (surprise) on package holidays to typical party island destinations. One third of customers- average age 19-  were travelling on holiday without their parents for the first time. As you can imagine, these holidays were infamous for drinking and sex. Think 'spring break' if you will. So "grubby little Essex boys" on a "club 18/30" holiday conjures up an image of excess and debauchery. Add in the Inbetweeners references that Gagarth so helpfully provided, and you get an idea of what the GM had in mind when he conceived his scenario.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1090854If you want a family friendly con, you don't have 18+ events. You limit games to PG-13 themes and your vendors don't sell products from R-rated IPs in the dealers room. Otherwise, you're full of shit and just using "family friendly" as a marketing slogan.

Then that would be just about everything accept the My Little Pony Rpg

Here is another little gem the letter she sent to the BBC complaining that they did not roll out the red carpet for her. No doubt she had zero problem any other time (which these days is most of the time)  the BBC reported as news something they scooped off twitter without do anything remotely like an investigation.  Something about Catholic School boys springs to mind.

Here is another little gem the letter she sent to the BBC complaining that they did not roll out the red carpet for her. No doubt she had zero problem any other time (which these days is most of the time) the BBC reported as news something they scooped off twitter without doing anything remotely like an investigation. Something about Catholic School boys springs to mind.  

Given the description in  the programme how did she come  to the conclusion it was  1990s Mystery maybe something like Hetty Wainthropp Investigates.
 
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Quote from: Omega;1090655In retrospect is was VERY not something wise to run at a family friendly con.

How many kids get from the main event area to the Hilton over a mile way?

What a hypocrite. Even though when she first tweeted about her bad experience ahe kept Rolfe name hidden yet felt it was all well and good to post it all over social media, without asking Rolfe permission if it would be okay.  

Now the same is being done to her and suddenly because it is her it is both an invasion of privacy and not ok to talk about it.

Talk about your double standards. Rolfe to me is a still a clueless idiot yet she is no better.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1090854If you want a family friendly con, you don't have 18+ events. You limit games to PG-13 themes and your vendors don't sell products from R-rated IPs in the dealers room. Otherwise, you're full of shit and just using "family friendly" as a marketing slogan.

That's rather puritanical.  And - that puritanism is exactly the American cultural problem that's at the heart of the intensity of the SJW-crusade.

In the UK, we never had the puritanical Prohibition and we're happy to drink alcohol in pub gardens and conventions alike with kids running around while the adults have their fun and the kids theirs.

In the UK, we have pantomimes that are aimed at kids but always have a thread of blue humour based mainly on innuendo (and who doesn't like something in their end-eh?). The kids laugh at the slapstick and the jokes they get. The adults laugh at the jokes for them that the kids don't get. (You know, the Principal Boy always likes a warm hand on her entrance).  

Please dump your puritan cultural shit on US conventions. Leave ours alone and consider that your core attitude overlaps with the SJWs when you tell others how they can have their fun.

Quote from: jhkim;1090837Hehehe. Sauce...

So I don't know this dude - I'd want to hear more from other people who knew him before judging. But I find the diarrhea explanation offputting at best.

Yeah, cons have a lot of eccentric personalities. But there is a point at which someone's eccentricity / bad taste / bad judgement goes too far, such that it detracts from people's enjoyment. I don't know enough to decide about this guy, but it's possible for someone to be at that point. If I was in charge of the con, I don't need to look inside their soul to see if they're really pure or not - I'm just deciding for my event. If they're detracting from the event, then I'd ban them. For their personal games, people can decide for themselves if they want to play with him or not.

So if he did run the same event a second time, and mentioned the diarrhea properly this time...is he of course making up lies to cover himself the second time around?

Did anyone actually say the GM told them their characters were raped, or is that just what they were assuming?

QuoteDid anyone actually say the GM told them their characters were raped, or is that just what they were assuming?

If what Rolfe said in the Grim interview is correct and to be believed, he failed to describe the scene in full, which led to some of the players inferring their characters had been raped. Now, did Rolfe omit the diarrhea bit accidentally as claimed, or was it deliberate for the shits and giggles? He says its the former, but I have a sneaky suspicion it was the latter. Either way, an impression was created that triggered the complaint, that's triggered meltdown of gaming as we know it, and possibly heralds the End of Days. But there does not appear to have been a situation where Rolfe explicitly said "Your characters have been raped"; it's based on this one particular scene, and the interpretation of it.

Gathering all the evidence together, including the original game posting at UKGE, I remain of the following opinion.

1. The game was poorly described to begin with
2. Rolfe was a prick for running this kind of edgy game at a con of this kind without full upfront disclosure in the con blurb
3. These failures lead to a bait & switch situation where the players paid to play in a game with a certain set of expectations, and then found themselves in something much different to advertized
4. Rolfe contributed to the impression taken away by the players either deliberately or through omission. Either way he handled it badly and seems to have extracted a certain degree of satisfaction from the at-table reactions
5. The players had a right to complain: they felt both misled and upset at what they took away from the game
6. UKGE investigated, took action based on that investigation, and that should be the end of it. Rolfe claims to have a recording of the session and will appeal. That's good news. It may clear things up properly. Depends on the recording
7. The Woke Hive Mind at TBP, once stirred into action, and having been soundly fucking thwarted over SJG/Bill Webb Gate, have a new casus belli and so will milk this for all its fucking worth. It's What They Do. A transgressor cannot be forgiven ever, and must be branded on the forehead, made to wear a hair shirt, and preferably volunteer for a lifetime shift in the fucking salt mines, rather than be allowed to admit they fucked up, be given an appropriate punishment, and then allowed to get the fuck on with their life.

And so the fucking wheel grinds on.

Quote from: Gagarth;1090861How many kids get from the main event area to the Hilton over a mile way?

Depends on if they might be staying at the Hilton with their families or visiting the Hilton for the other live show events. Last year there was a show by basically a geek magician that was maths jokes, gamer jokes, stuff with Rubics cube and lots of clever magic/memory stuff; entirely kid friendly IIRC. The guy who does The Dark Room also somewhat changes his tone according to the time of day and the audience.

I have to say though that if I had been playing a different RPG in the room where that RPG was running then I don't think I'd have been really too worried about my kids being in the room at another table.  When you look at an RPG from a distance it's mostly people having a conversation at a table with the added bonus of numbers occasionally being exclaimed: "Twenty", "O - Five" (etc.).  

OK - you might have pictures or miniatures that could be "inappropriate"? But really, I think the idea that you can't have kids at one table in a room because of the nature of conversations at another table is a bit odd. Would you apply that to a restaurant?  

Now, if the problem was a lot of effing-and-blinding from the players in a loud and inappropriate manner then OK that might be intrusive and unwelcome for young ears but I'd suggest that would depend on the players and not the game.  It's pretty much just as likely  for any game?

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1090880Now, did Rolfe omit the diarrhea bit accidentally as claimed, or was it deliberate for the shits and giggles?

So to speak.

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1090880that's triggered meltdown of gaming as we know it, and possibly heralds the End of Days.

(https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/263835861939241777/27D50279889F06A3D52BCF94901EA9DEA5EC7F5F/)

Quote from: JMcL63;1090856Essex boys were infamous in, IIRC, the 1990s, as particularly laddish youth and young men from the county of Essex in southern England- real dudebros if you will. Club 18/30 was an actual holiday company (which only ceased trading last year), which sent young people, aged 18-30 (surprise) on package holidays to typical party island destinations. One third of customers- average age 19-  were travelling on holiday without their parents for the first time. As you can imagine, these holidays were infamous for drinking and sex. Think 'spring break' if you will. So "grubby little Essex boys" on a "club 18/30" holiday conjures up an image of excess and debauchery. Add in the Inbetweeners references that Gagarth so helpfully provided, and you get an idea of what the GM had in mind when he conceived his scenario.

So, as long as we're dealing with implied things, it looks like the description implied there would be sexual content of a juvenile nature.

Quote from: Gagarth;1090861How many kids get from the main event area to the Hilton over a mile way?

They are worried about kids and being "family friendly" ?   Wait...aren't these the same people that think its perfectly ok for a guy in a dress to be in the Ladies Room ?

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1090880If what Rolfe said in the Grim interview is correct and to be believed, he failed to describe the scene in full, which led to some of the players inferring their characters had been raped. Now, did Rolfe omit the diarrhea bit accidentally as claimed, or was it deliberate for the shits and giggles? He says its the former, but I have a sneaky suspicion it was the latter. Either way, an impression was created that triggered the complaint, that's triggered meltdown of gaming as we know it, and possibly heralds the End of Days. But there does not appear to have been a situation where Rolfe explicitly said "Your characters have been raped"; it's based on this one particular scene, and the interpretation of it.

It's also worth noting that, if we do take Grim's interview at face value (and why not?), there was no talk of rape at all at the table, not even in the post session chat. So the 'gang rape' interpretation of the offending scene appears to have come entirely after the fact, and it was first aired in Anjuli's anguished tweet- https://twitter.com/GeekGirlBookWrm/status/1134503931932024832 (https://twitter.com/GeekGirlBookWrm/status/1134503931932024832). Curiouser and curiouser, maybe?

Was I the only person that thought the characters were waking from an encounter with aliens? Aliens that own a van...

Quote from: JMcL63As you can imagine, these holidays were infamous for drinking and sex. Think 'spring break' if you will. So "grubby little Essex boys" on a "club 18/30" holiday conjures up an image of excess and debauchery. Add in the Inbetweeners references that Gagarth so helpfully provided, and you get an idea of what the GM had in mind when he conceived his scenario.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1090894So, as long as we're dealing with implied things, it looks like the description implied there would be sexual content of a juvenile nature.

juvenile sexual content =/= PCs roofied and raped

Those are two very different content warnings. The former could be a wacky sex comedy about 18-year-olds on break trying to score, which is very different content from PCs roofied, raped, and hunted down. The GM was apparently picturing The Inbetweeners from his interview - but it isn't mentioned in the description.

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;10908801. The game was poorly described to begin with
2. Rolfe was a prick for running this kind of edgy game at a con of this kind without full upfront disclosure in the con blurb
3. These failures lead to a bait & switch situation where the players paid to play in a game with a certain set of expectations, and then found themselves in something much different to advertized
4. Rolfe contributed to the impression taken away by the players either deliberately or through omission. Either way he handled it badly and seems to have extracted a certain degree of satisfaction from the at-table reactions
5. The players had a right to complain: they felt both misled and upset at what they took away from the game
6. UKGE investigated, took action based on that investigation, and that should be the end of it. Rolfe claims to have a recording of the session and will appeal. That's good news. It may clear things up properly. Depends on the recording
7. The Woke Hive Mind at TBP, once stirred into action, and having been soundly fucking thwarted over SJG/Bill Webb Gate, have a new casus belli and so will milk this for all its fucking worth.

Yeah, I agree with this. For what it's worth, here were the two reactions of players in the game that I saw. (I hadn't seen them linked recently.)

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1134606036663508997
https://twitter.com/GeekGirlBookWrm/status/1134503931932024832

Well here we see another aspect of the issue. The GM is well known for subverting genre and mixing and matching (EG: Dad's Army Vs Deep Ones) that _should_ have been obvious from the sign-up sheet but apparently wasn't. Why WOULD anyone discuss limits etc? Find a table that uses X-cards or whatever if that's what you're looking for - and again, the whole 'rape thing' seems to spring forth from their heads, fully formed, like Athena with the flimsiest of justifications.

And then everyone's supposed to just pretend it doesn't matter if their interpretation is right or not.

Quote from: jhkim;1090904juvenile sexual content =/= PCs roofied and raped

You must not be familiar with juvenile sexual humor.

Good gods how do those people function in real life?

Quote from: jhkim;1090904juvenile sexual content =/= PCs roofied and raped

Those are two very different content warnings. The former could be a wacky sex comedy about 18-year-olds on break trying to score, which is very different content from PCs roofied, raped, and hunted down. The GM was apparently picturing The Inbetweeners from his interview - but it isn't mentioned in the description.


]

Agreed but for one point, there was no rape described by the GM. Should we be held accountable for what fucktards feel/think/read/interpret from our words/actions regardles if their fuctard interpretation has any basis/merit?

So if a woke moron calls you a muhsoggynerd/wacist/nathzee we should treat you as such?

If you say good morning to a strange woman on the street we should treat you as a sexual harasser?

Their subjective (and intentionally evil) interpretation of your words should be the standard?

No, sorry that's not something I will ever agree to.

Quote from: GRIM;1090906Well here we see another aspect of the issue. The GM is well known for subverting genre and mixing and matching (EG: Dad's Army Vs Deep Ones) that _should_ have been obvious from the sign-up sheet but apparently wasn't. Why WOULD anyone discuss limits etc? Find a table that uses X-cards or whatever if that's what you're looking for - and again, the whole 'rape thing' seems to spring forth from their heads, fully formed, like Athena with the flimsiest of justifications.

And then everyone's supposed to just pretend it doesn't matter if their interpretation is right or not.

What counts is their fee fees Grim, they feel you and I are both far right incels bent in enslaving non-whites and women just waiting for the opportunity to throw gays from roofs.

Therefore it must be so

And according to some we should take measures to prevent the fucktards from ever misconstruing anything we do/say. Because we know they will misconstrue it, but they fail to see that they will do so no matter what.

And that giving ground only serves to give them power to demand we give ever more ground to their crazy demands.

But you know "Won't somebody think of the children/wahmen?"

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090923What counts is their fee fees Grim, they feel you and I are both far right incels bent in enslaving non-whites and women just waiting for the opportunity to throw gays from roofs.

Therefore it must be so

And according to some we should take measures to prevent the fucktards from ever misconstruing anything we do/say. Because we know they will misconstrue it, but they fail to see that they will do so no matter what.

And that giving ground only serves to give them power to demand we give ever more ground to their crazy demands.

But you know "Won't somebody think of the children/wahmen?"

You're absolutely right GeekyBugle: these SJW crazies cannot be appeased, negotiated with, or apologised to. They can only be ignored. The sooner people - across all areas of society - realise that you can just refuse to bend the knee to the demands of SJWs of every stripe, the sooner their power will be broken. They - the SJWs - are in the minority. It's just that they control some key institutions in society. I don't think that situation can last forever.

Quote from: JMcL63;1090929It's just that they control some key institutions in society.

Go on then - name three key institutions they control.

As we're meant to stay on roleplaying discussions: Are you actually a moronic pillock or just playing at being one?

Quote from: Anselyn;1090934Go on then - name three key institutions they control.

As we're meant to stay on roleplaying discussions: Are you actually a moronic pillock or just playing at being one?

At the risk of a warning for going off-topic, I'll answer your question: academia; the media; and Hollywood. I won't comment further for reasons already outlined.

Quote from: JMcL63;1090936At the risk of a warning for going off-topic, I'll answer your question: academia; the media; and Hollywood. I won't comment further for reasons already outlined.

Sorry. I thought your Glasgow, Scotland to be the one in the UK rather than the one in the US.

Academia - No. I'm a British academic. UK academia is in no way controlled by SJWs [You do understand what controlled means?]

The Media. Even if I concede that the BBC has a liberal bias - although it mostly seems to equally upset the left and right at different times - I don't see "control" there. The most popular UK newspapers are the Sun and the Daily Mail. SJW controlled, really?


Hollywood - if you say so. But - I don't consider that an institution as the term is normally used.


Ob RPG reference: Do you think gamers habituation to fantasy worlds makes them more likely to accept ridiculous conspiracy theory versions of the world? Are you sure it's the SJWs controlling those institutions not vampires or David Icke's lizard men?

Quote from: jhkimjuvenile sexual content =/= PCs roofied and raped

Those are two very different content warnings. The former could be a wacky sex comedy about 18-year-olds on break trying to score, which is very different content from PCs roofied, raped, and hunted down. The GM was apparently picturing The Inbetweeners from his interview - but it isn't mentioned in the description.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090921Agreed but for one point, there was no rape described by the GM. Should we be held accountable for what fucktards feel/think/read/interpret from our words/actions regardles if their fuctard interpretation has any basis/merit?

So if a woke moron calls you a muhsoggynerd/wacist/nathzee we should treat you as such?

If you say good morning to a strange woman on the street we should treat you as a sexual harasser?

I disagree that this is a fucktard interpretation. If the characters are all roofied, stripped naked, handcuffed, and have their asses sore - then rape is not some weird woke-only interpretation. I would expect that conservative, totally un-woke players would still presume rape in that situation.

Quote from: jhkim;1090953I disagree that this is a fucktard interpretation. If the characters are all roofied, stripped naked, handcuffed, and have their asses sore - then rape is not some weird woke-only interpretation. I would expect that conservative, totally un-woke players would still presume rape in that situation.

raises hand Yep.

Meh turns out to be a big ado about nothing.

Quote from: jhkim;1090953I disagree that this is a fucktard interpretation. If the characters are all roofied, stripped naked, handcuffed, and have their asses sore - then rape is not some weird woke-only interpretation. I would expect that conservative, totally un-woke players would still presume rape in that situation.

So puritans from the other side of the isle. Still I shouldn't be held accountable for stuff that happened solely in your head.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090963Still I shouldn't be held accountable for stuff that happened solely in your head.

Well, if you're the GM and you're the one setting the scenes for what happens in my head while I'm playing at your table, then yes. Do a better job of helping the players to form the intended scenes in their heads, or don't be surprised when it goes sideways.

Quote from: jhkimI disagree that this is a fucktard interpretation. If the characters are all roofied, stripped naked, handcuffed, and have their asses sore - then rape is not some weird woke-only interpretation. I would expect that conservative, totally un-woke players would still presume rape in that situation.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090963So puritans from the other side of the isle. Still I shouldn't be held accountable for stuff that happened solely in your head.

This has nothing to do with pro or anti. It's just common sense about what to conclude.

If I'm running a game where the players are all explicitly on-board for sexual violence, then this sort of thing would be a reasonable move for the GM. And... if I were a player in that game, I would still come to the same conclusion.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1090967Well, if you're the GM and you're the one setting the scenes for what happens in my head while I'm playing at your table, then yes. Do a better job of helping the players to form the intended scenes in their heads, or don't be surprised when it goes sideways.

You guys are aware we're not talking about reasonable people here right? And you're okey with them doing so and fucking you over for it.

Quote from: jhkim;1090969This has nothing to do with pro or anti. It's just common sense about what to conclude.

If I'm running a game where the players are all explicitly on-board for sexual violence, then this sort of thing would be a reasonable move for the GM. And... if I were a player in that game, I would still come to the same conclusion.

Take your head out of the gutter then.

Quote from: Shasarak;1090957Meh turns out to be a big ado about nothing.

Pretty much. We're all quibbling over definitions now.

Quote from: jhkim;1090953I disagree that this is a fucktard interpretation. If the characters are all roofied, stripped naked, handcuffed, and have their asses sore - then rape is not some weird woke-only interpretation. I would expect that conservative, totally un-woke players would still presume rape in that situation.

I agree with John.

However, if the GM said "What I meant was the PCs all had diaherrea, but I forgot to mention it since I had been GM-ing for hours" then I would be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

It requires someone to be a Puritan to take that very heavily implied interpretation seriously?

Dude, you are why I can't take anti-SJW conspiracy theorists seriously. Everything is SJW's to you, everything is a plot to destroy innocent people who merely want to do (insert creepy shit here) and even your opening post was such a twisted, bizarre version of events that most people on this site saw through it the moment they actually got the actual facts

You live in a bubble surrounded by mostly imaginary enemies, and it's weird.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1090971You guys are aware we're not talking about reasonable people here right? And you're okey with them doing so and fucking you over for it.

I choose to look at it like a reasonable person. I think that such an approach makes those that don't do so stand out as raving loons. In my eyes, you're falling into that category as much as the people you are ranting about since you just want to pile higher with the hype. Even worse, you seem share the same belief that any who disagree with you need to be attacked.

Quote from: Anselyn;1090887OK - you might have pictures or miniatures that could be "inappropriate"? But really, I think the idea that you can't have kids at one table in a room because of the nature of conversations at another table is a bit odd. Would you apply that to a restaurant?  

When I go to a restaurant, I would rather people at the next table were not discussing loose bowel motions and rape, yes. This is something we have had to teach my seven year old son, that you don't discuss poo, pee, vomit, death or dismemberment at the dinner table. He's not old enough to know about rape but I think he'll be able to figure that out for himself later. But basically he understands all this, enough to tell other kids when they come and have lunch or dinner here and bring things up.

In other news, you also shouldn't pick your nose at the game table, or cock your leg and say "better out than in" when you fart, or says "cor, look at the norks on that one!" as a woman passes the game table.

Of course, gamers having less table manners than a seven year old is not unprecedented. But what can I say, I have high expectations.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1090996This is something we have had to teach my seven year old son, that you don't discuss poo, pee, vomit, death or dismemberment at the dinner table.

Ever had the joy of sitting down to eat with a bunch of nurses? The conversation is basically everything you're teaching your son not to talk about plus some.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1090998Ever had the joy of sitting down to eat with a bunch of nurses? The conversation is basically everything you're teaching your son not to talk about plus some.

Agreed, if anybody in your family is a medical professional of any kind, all that stuff is typical dinner table conversation.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1090973Pretty much. We're all quibbling over definitions now.

Some dudes have a bad game at a Con and all of a sudden its some big deal.

They need to take a concrete pill and harden up.

Quote from: Gagarth;1090861How many kids get from the main event area to the Hilton over a mile way?

Depends on how unsupervised they are? :eek:

But still not something you'd run at a con that is presenting itself as family friendly. Even if they OKed it.

Quote from: Shasarak;1091001Some dudes have a bad game at a Con and all of a sudden its some big deal.

They need to take a concrete pill and harden up.

The "payed money" part may have been a contributor to the ire. I've been tempted at least once at a con when a DM went rotten about midway through. But the other players at the table worked to help me out and he was thwarted and frustrated the rest of the session. Otherwise would have walked and filed a complaint and asked for a refund on the ticket.

Quote from: Anselyn;1090874In the UK, we never had the puritanical Prohibition and we're happy to drink alcohol in pub gardens and conventions alike with kids running around while the adults have their fun and the kids theirs.

Clown boy, it's YOUR media that shat itself over a game at a con.

If YOUR con was fine with "adults have their fun", then it wouldn't have lost it over some fictional sore bums.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1090998Ever had the joy of sitting down to eat with a bunch of nurses? The conversation is basically everything you're teaching your son not to talk about plus some.

Yes. And a significant portion of my garage gym business is paramedics.

We ask them to tone it down if they're at our dinner table.

I think you'll find that past the initial couple of years of their career where it's all new and exciting, most will only have such conversations if exclusively in (para)medical company, if a good part of the table is laypeople, they'll ease off.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1091013Clown boy, it's YOUR media that shat itself over a game at a con.

If YOUR con was fine with "adults have their fun", then it wouldn't have lost it over some fictional sore bums.

Ok. That's a fair cop. I shall remove the crimson orb of jollity from my face.

My point remains though. This is not a binary choice. The options are not kid-exclusive Disneyfication OR adult-only anything-goes events.  Also, adults having their fun do need to know the limits of reasonable behaviour within their own group.

Quote from: myleftnut;1090782Quick some troll get in there and accuse a mod of sexual assault.

Are you seriously inciting someone to commit a criminal offence?

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1090973Pretty much. We're all quibbling over definitions now.

Many threads end up that way, unfortunately.

I have to say seeing that thread about X-card over at the TBP guarantees I probably will never use them. The perpetually offended mob love their perfect world scenarios. Whenever the use of an X-card issued the entire game comes to a full stop and everyone else at the table will be happy at about and spend hours trying to figure out what is bothering the person who uses an X-card. Real life means that most table will use that method once or twice and then toss it to side for being far too disruptive. I find the whole concept of an X-card an oxymoron. A form of communication used to communicate a gamers displeasure about something at the table yet also making it so they don't have to say what is bothering them. So minutes if not hours are wasted trying to play the rpg version of where Waldo without any success as it is a guessing game. Not to mention unless one is playing with like minded individuals most are not going to take kindly to sessions coming to a full stop with no resolution.

The sheer sense of entitlement over at TBP where everyone and anyone must and will simply bend over backwards to someone using an X-card is sickening imo. Yes I will try and work with a player to find a solution and resolve the issue. Within a certain amount of time and I expect some kind of cooperation from the player using the X-card as well. Waving it around and not telling me what is bothering you is a sure way to be asked to leave a table. That is what usually and will happen at many tables. One player desires are to be respected so do all the other players. I'm not going to kill an entire campaign because a player won't tell me what is bothering him even in secret. Or joins a table where the main focus or session might include spiders yet decides to join even if an arachnophobe. Even the whole issue about reskinning the spiders into something else. The entire table has to agree not just one person.


I'm not going to rework an entire campaign for one person especially if I do not know the reason why and the entire table has to agree on it. The bullshit about "one persons desires are more important than the game and everyone else desires" can be tossed into an active nuclear reactor and stay there. Rpgs are a collaborative effort and not one person gets to tell everyone else how to play.

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;10908801. The game was poorly described to begin with
2. Rolfe was a prick for running this kind of edgy game at a con of this kind without full upfront disclosure in the con blurb
3. These failures lead to a bait & switch situation where the players paid to play in a game with a certain set of expectations, and then found themselves in something much different to advertized

It was not poorly describe it was short but it was obvious from his description that this was not going to be a standard Things from the Flood and was marked as 18+.

Quote from: Omega;1091007Depends on how unsupervised they are? :eek:

But still not something you'd run at a con that is presenting itself as family friendly. Even if they OKed it.

Jesus fucking Christ the guy did not play a video of Hostel Part one, have some fucking perspective.

Quote from: soltakss;1091041Are you seriously inciting someone to commit a criminal offence?

Like Jussie Smollett? Seems that's no big thing.  Wait you would probably need know some corrupt Democrat politician or their wife to get away with it.

QuoteI'm not going to rework an entire campaign for one person especially if I do not know the reason why and the entire table has to agree on it. The bullshit about "one persons desires are more important than the game and everyone else desires" can be tossed into an active nuclear reactor and stay there. Rpgs are a collaborative effort and not one person gets to tell everyone else how to play.

This.

The X card potentially places game control in the hands of individuals who don't have to justify why they're bringing the game to a screeching halt. The GM may have done nothing wrong. He or she may not have introduced anything edgy or controversial at all, but something that's caused even a minor problem (no matter how trivial) to a player can, with no justification, be used to make the GM alter the narrative to suit the X carder. Forget how much effort a GM has already put into preparing the game and actually fucking running it. Forget that making even a small change on the fly can impact the entire flow of the game. Forget that there are other people involved who may not give a flying fuck about whatever's 'triggering'. Bring to the game to halt, fold your arms, refuse to justify why, and insist on the GM changing, there and then, whatever it is you don't like.

This is why I don't go to fucking Breakout in Toronto, the spiritual home of SJW gaming and X Card Heaven.

Quote from: Anselyn;1091040My point remains though. This is not a binary choice. The options are not kid-exclusive Disneyfication OR adult-only anything-goes events.  Also, adults having their fun do need to know the limits of reasonable behaviour within their own group.

"Reasonable behavior" is a huge gray area to cover, especially with a public event where you likely don't know the players before starting.
Is nudity unreasonable? How about a ranger in lingerie? Or a dwarf who makes poop jokes? A sphinx whose riddles are all about masturbation innuendo?
Someone always winds up dancing on the line between reasonable and unreasonable.

I can see why some people might have been taken by surprise. When most people think of horror, they might be expecting gory shit but not necessarily fare like the Last House on the Left or I Spit On Your Grave.  I don't think it warrants a ban, but if I were to include those things in my game,  I would give people a heads up. A slap on the wrist and a requirement to have some sort of advisory would have been enough.

Quote from: sureshot;1091048I have to say seeing that thread about X-card over at the TBP guarantees I probably will never use them.

To be honest, I've only seen them available a couple of times and they were "This is an X-Card, if something happens in the game that makes you feel uncomfortable, then just show the X-Card and we'll move on", and everyone in the game went "OK, no problem".

There has only been one time when we could have used an X-card, when I had a chaos monster that was a mass of squiggly, squirmy worms in a heaving mass, when one new player said "Oh, I have a phobia of exactly that kind of thing", so I dropped the emphasis and never used it again.

Now, I know that some people are against them on principle and some people will deliberately emphasise things that you could oppose with an X-card, just because an X-card can be used, but I don't normally play like that. Bear in mind, that in a post about things that people wouldn't have in their games, I listed about 20 examples in games I had played in, to have them referred as "atrocities", so I'm not a little snowflake who needs protecting.

To be clear I don't hate the concept of an X-card. I just find that it can be distruptive in that if a player does not ha e to say what is bothering them. I don't mind temporarily stopping s session. I need to know what is bothering the player using the X-card. If I'm all I'm going to receive is silence or evasive answers then I will ask the player to leave the campaign. I need more from a player than the tapping and/or waving around of an X-card.

If ones goes by whst they say over at TBP not only am I supposed to be able to read minds. The rest of the group including myself should happily have our free time wasted . If after five hours I and the rest of the table stll can't figure out whaf is bothering the user of the X-card too bad so sad suck it up buttercup. The group time and everythimg elsd is tertiary to feelings of tje X-card user.

An X-Card is always either completely unnecessary or completely insufficient.  It's like a false pillar holding up your roof:  It is either merely decorative to make people feel good, or creating a false impression of security.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1091092An X-Card is always either completely unnecessary or completely insufficient.  It's like a false pillar holding up your roof:  It is either merely decorative to make people feel good, or creating a false impression of security.

If decoration makes people feel good, then is that a bad thing?

I don't generally use the X-card, and I agree it's not necessary - but if people like it, then they should play how they like. In my experience, it's a token symbol that gets put out that then gets mostly ignored.

Quote from: Ratman"Reasonable behavior" is a huge gray area to cover, especially with a public event where you likely don't know the players before starting.
Is nudity unreasonable? How about a ranger in lingerie? Or a dwarf who makes poop jokes? A sphinx whose riddles are all about masturbation innuendo?
Someone always winds up dancing on the line between reasonable and unreasonable.

Well, player nudity is unreasonable. I don't think that's controversial.

You are, of course, right. But isn't realising that you've acidentally crossed a line with a group and reining back part of reasonable behaviour?

Of course, a double entendre can just slip out, as the actress said to the bishop. But - we're not as happy with them as we used to be:

"I am a wondrous creature: to women a thing of joyful expectation, to close-lying companions serviceable. I harm no city-dweller excepting my slayer alone. My stem is erect and tall––I stand up in bed––and whiskery somewhere down below. Sometimes a countryman's quite comely daughter will venture, bumptious girl, to get a grip on me. She assaults my red self and seizes my head and clenches me in a cramped place. She will soon feel the effect of her encounter with me, this curl-locked woman who squeezes me. Her eye will be wet."

The Exeter Book from ~975 AD. [Ans: An onion]

Quote from: Anselyn;1091115Well, player nudity is unreasonable. I don't think that's controversial.

Well, there goes my weekend. :D

QuoteYou are, of course, right. But isn't realising that you've acidentally crossed a line with a group and reining back part of reasonable behaviour?

Exactly! With an equally reasonable response. This whole tempest could have been avoided if a player or players saying the naked sore bum stuff was out of line, and the organizers telling the GM some players didn't like that, and asking him to knock it off.
Or, even better, the players speak up at the table and give the GM direct feedback.

But here we are, with people flipping the fuck out over stuff that did or didn't happen, people getting banned from events to cover the (sore) asses of organizers against the mob, and threads on forums yelling at each other over the details.

Quote from: jhkim;1091108If decoration makes people feel good, then is that a bad thing?

I don't generally use the X-card, and I agree it's not necessary - but if people like it, then they should play how they like. In my experience, it's a token symbol that gets put out that then gets mostly ignored.

As long as everyone involved understands that it is merely decoration, then no harm, no foul.

Quote from: Gagarth;1091055Jesus fucking Christ the guy did not play a video of Hostel Part one, have some fucking perspective.

Calm down. You apparently have not been to many cons. Some folk let their teens range far and wide. Hell, some let their teens go off to cons ALONE. Take out a loan and buy a clue. Just because a session isnt in the con site propper in absolutely no way means its off limits or inaccessible. Off site gaming areas are fairly common for some cons. Others try to keep it all contained on site.

And I meant that the subject matter of the intro alone was not something youd have at a so-called family friendly site unless they have areas reserved for that. I glanced at their programme and did not see anything mentioning such a thing. But may have missed it. I'd like to think this joker wasnt running that in a general gaming area. But till more data is had its an unknown quantity.

Quote from: Anselyn;1091040I shall remove the crimson orb of jollity from my face.

LOL! You're our kind of forum scum. :eek: Looking forward to more posts from you.

Quote from: Anselyn;1091040The options are not kid-exclusive Disneyfication OR adult-only anything-goes events.  Also, adults having their fun do need to know the limits of reasonable behaviour within their own group.

To me, a game listed 18+ is exactly the kind of "limit" that should work at a mixed age event.

I imagine that UKGE also segregates 18+ games in their own room? Or late evening time slots?

At the LA Cons, we kept kid-friendly events and mature only events on different floors.

Quote from: sureshot;1091048I have to say seeing that thread about X-card over at the TBP guarantees I probably will never use them.

Everyone at my games has an X-it card. They can use it anytime to leave the game.

X-cards are laughable bullshit. The freaks can take their weak sauce mental illness to another GM's table.

I have no interest GMing a table of overgrown toddlers who can't handle a fantasy game.

Quote from: soltakss;1091078when I had a chaos monster that was a mass of squiggly, squirmy worms in a heaving mass, when one new player said "Oh, I have a phobia of exactly that kind of thing",

My response? "The thing hears you and turns toward your character. Globs of worms fall forward and flow onto your legs."

Three things:

1. This is a hobby for entertainment and relaxation. If you have mental issues that make the other participants, specifically the GM, constantly walk on eggshells around you, you're not a great player. Full stop.
2. The whole "mental issues" thingy lends itself to abuse. Claiming to have this-or-that phobia or this-or-that other issue going on is a first class attention whoring mechanism, guaranteed to work in this day and age. You can even possibly use it as a stick to browbeat other people into submission. The same goes for the "supporters" of someone with mental issues.
3. Handicapped people are not any more noble than other human beings; they're subject to the same flaws as any of us. My mother is blind and she regularly leverages her blindness as excuse for things that are wholly unrelated to her loss of eyesight. You mustn't let people that do have legitimate issues get away with that all the time. This is Supporter 101, something the folks over at rpg.net and twitter probably not get. Being a good supporter means putting up a roadblock to bullsh*t.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1091151Handicapped people are not any more noble than other human beings; they're subject to the same flaws as any of us. My mother is blind and she regularly leverages her blindness as excuse for things that are wholly unrelated to her loss of eyesight. You mustn't let people that do have legitimate issues get away with that all the time. This is Supporter 101, something the folks over at rpg.net and twitter probably not get. Being a good supporter means putting up a roadblock to bullsh*t.

I agree. Bad DMs should not be able to get away with using their uselessness as an excuse.

Come out of the basement and interact with other people, and the socially disabled DM will eventually figure out that most grownups don't sit down at the game table to talk about defecating in their pants and being raped and the like.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1091092An X-Card is always either completely unnecessary or completely insufficient.  It's like a false pillar holding up your roof:  It is either merely decorative to make people feel good, or creating a false impression of security.

As I said possibly decent tool for some game tables, hampered by poor implementation. All it takes for a game session to come to a screeching halt is to wave one around as a player. Then waste everyone time not saying what bothers one as a player because the X-card allows the stopping of a session yet the player is not required to reveal what is bothering them. I would change the rules of an X-card that the player is required to say what bothers them. If I ever run a campaign using them an player with few exceptions will be required to tell the players and DM what is bothering them. That will be non-negotiable. Of course if the person was abused in some way then they can tell myself or whomever is running the table in private. None of this perfect world scenarios that the social active members try to present where everyone at the table is finr wasting minutes if not hours of game time, because arachne mcphobia stupidly decided to join a campaign where spider hunting is the main theme.

Even then has our society degenerated to such a degree that instead of facing fears and overcoming them we instead just ruin everyone else fun and waste their time. I find that I hate crowds. Not enough to not function yet when I go say shopping for food and it is crowded it drives me nuts. I find being bothered less and less as I shop at crowded places. Sure a gaming table might cater to one specific phobia or dislike the reality is not everyone else will. If everyone else in a certain family likes going camping they might not go to places where their are no spiders. More often than not the spider fearing person is going to shit out of luck and not invited to the family outings. People can and are willing to sometimes cater to someone phobias eventually many will just get fed up and not want to deal with it. It is not fair yes and hurtful to the person suffering from a phobia or fear. It is reality outside of SJWs mandated safe spaces. I cannot and will not guarantee that my session of D&D will have Spiders. Some yes and sometimes and call me lazy and an asshole I simply do not want to re-skin spiders into something else. Especially on for one or two players at the table.

As for more deeper personal issues such as sexual assault and say murder. At most such things should be spoken with the DM and only if the person is comfortable with other players. Even then such subjects should really be spoken with a mental health care professional. It's not that I do not want to hear them, I am not qualified or trained as such. At most the group needs to know that certain subjects such as sexual assault are banned during play and outside of it no exceptions and non-negotiable. I just do not understand some gamers when  comes to rpgs though. Many involve killing creatures to gain XP and treasure I always mention it new players to the hobby and certainly before I run my games. I also mention that sometimes favored non-player characters sometimes die. I remember reading over a TBP that someone burst into tears over some NPCs random dog being killed off at the start of the rise of the Runelord campaign. So it;s okay to kill of Goblins even though in Golarion they are fucked up in the head murderous psychos yet random dog with no stats being killed off is a cause to cry. All because the PC liked dogs. I do to yet I'm not shedding tears over some fake dog killed off in a rpg scenario. I save my tears for real animals. I wonder if it is because people can no longer separate reality from fiction. Cry for animals being mistreated in puppy mills not random fictional # 20.

TBP Stalinists are handing out threadbans for people cultivating rational arguments against x cards now. Gee, who woulda thought that might happen?

I'm sympathetic to anyone who's got some issues, not matter what their source, that a game might touch on. I get some people aren't comfortable talking about certain things. But fuck, life is like that. Open a newspaper. Turn on the TV. Scan through Facebook. Every minute of every day things that are unpleasant and 'triggering' are put on public display. You have to learn to deal with and cope with the fact that the world around you might occasionally fucking throw stuff right at you out of the blue. GMs need to be responsible and not be fucking assholes, especially in a convention environment where things are heightened. But players need to not be assholes too. Like Mr Kalinowski said upthread, "if you have mental issues that make the other participants, specifically the GM, constantly walk on eggshells around you, you're not a great player." And he's right, you're not. Expecting there to be specific mechanisms to create a little safe space for you at a gaming table is just fucking Entitlement. GMs put a lot of effort into getting a game ready (even if it may not look that way) and a lot of effort running that game at the table. This isn't fucking Monopoly. It's a constant mental juggling act running the plot, the rules, NPCs and listening to what the players are saying and doing. GMs are providing a unique and intense service. They shouldn't be pricks, they should absolutely read the table, and they should absolutely be clear and upfront about what to expect in the game. But players are not fucking Entitled to sabotage all that for individual and purely personal reasons. If your trigger moments are so bad, sorry pal, then don't put yourself in a position where you're gonna get triggered.  That 'tapping politely on the x card' might just be wrecking weeks of prep and hours of mental effort; it can wreck game flow that was perfectly fine before but won't be hence. At the end, the GM might feel fucking shitty, and exhausted, and depressed - but I guess that's okay, because after all, you were safe.

A GM is not there to hold every player's hand and be their personal therapist. That's asking way too much of any GM. And most psychiatric professionals would strongly suggest against practicing psychotherapy without a license.

The X-Card is open to abuse by a player determined to abuse it. It's just another rule for disruptive players to play lawyer with. It doesn't at all prevent anything.

I will echo what I said over on TBP. That to truly enforce compliance with a convention's rules. There would have to be a member of the convention staff assigned to observe each and every game run at said convention at all times. And most conventions just don't have the kind of manpower necessary for that task.

That threadban came literally two hours after I went to bed. And I would not have known about it at all if I had not been woken up by a 6:30 am phone call. i had gone to bed at 2 am. After spending hours of dealing with the preschoolers over on TBP. Who don't seem to have the basic gaming skill of inserting themselves into another person's differing point of view.

Agreed with Darrin.

Obviously the DM and the rest of the table shoulx mpt ne jerks or assholes to players with mental health issues. Neither is the rest of tje table to be held hostage or walk pn eggshells because the same player refuses treatment and insists on using the game sessions as therapy.

Many including myself are not mental health care professionals nor should we be assumed to be such professionals. At most the game sessions are for chilling and venting after working for a week. Sure sone senditive topics can be handled ws a group. Anythin g onvolving any form of abuse should be handled ny the appropriate mental health care professionals.

Surprise suprise TBP banned Darrin for two days and a tbreadban.

Quote from: sureshot;1091172Surprise suprise TBP banned Darrin for two days and a tbreadban.

I got two days based on an infraction history created by mods abusing their authority. One created by mods who had a personal axe to grind with me. Instead of any actual real violation of their rules.

I'm guilty of 'wrong-think". And that seems enough of a pretext for their actions.

i'm not going to write an appeal to the admins of TBP. Done that in the past. And it resulted in a whole lot of nothing.

I don't trust TBP to treat me fairly. By any stretch of the imagination.

You know who I trust to treat me fairly? Pundit. That's why I am here. Because i trust in The RPGPundit.

May that never change.

QuoteI'm guilty of 'wrong-think". And that seems enough of a pretext for their actions.

Sadly you are. The Big Purple Stalinist Hivemind has no use for differing positions or opinions. Challenging the Hivemind is 'sealioning' or outright fascism. Pass the sickbag.

Ever notice these easily "triggered" fucks are the same asshats binging TV shows which feature everything they claim is so triggering?

It's almost like they are completely full of shit!! :eek:

If someone is being deliberately disruptive at a con game. I expect intervention by con security to give them the toss. I don't care what their political affiliation is. They are out of there!

I see the X-Card as giving disruptive players license to stop the game dead cold. Which is absolutely unacceptable. As they will use it to derail things for absolutely everybody else.

Wouldn't an 18+ game roughly correspond to a Rated X movie? I know you had this kind of rating, and NC-17, stuff like that in the US. If the director said that the movie was a horror story about teens and a "messy" one at that, would you start watching the movie expecting to see Ferris Bueller's Day Off or Ferris Bueller's Face Clean Off?

18+ could mean anything.

Looking at the description given of the game in advance (https://twitter.com/Rivetgeek/status/1135371758830145536?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwgr%5E393039363b74776565745f6d65646961&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fforum.rpg.net%2Findex.php%3Fthreads%2Fman-banned-from-uk-games-expo-for-rape-in-tales-from-the-loop-scenario-it-ends-up-on-the-bbc-was-convention-games-and-the-necessity-of-the-x-card.847434%2Fpage-32) - I wouldn't have been too surprised by the content.

But who knows what other people make of that.  We're talking about Geeks here - would the players even really know the genre in question?  

Or perhaps they didn't read it and just went by the title of the rpg.

And of course - reading the description would have prompted me to most defintiely find a different game.

I wish I could find the link, but the person at UK Games Expo they kicked the GM out wrote a blog entry. He said he knew the GM for a decade and that the GM was so respected and senior that they were the room leader. He also said that the GM did not deny/affirmed the allegations and that is when he told the action of kicking them out. The leader said he was shocked and did not believe it when it was first told to him as he had known the GM for years and never would have expected it.

And I also came across this account: https://draconick.com/2019/06/07/the-problem-of-sexual-violence-in-ttrpgs/

I don't think that the text interview of the GM is as conclusive as others here claim it is. The supposed first person account says that the GM said the characters were raped. The GM said he has a recording, but so far his explanation looks weak.

If Rolfe truly has the recoding of the game session that he says he does he better use it to defend himself. Things sre not looking good for him imo.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1091267And I also came across this account: https://draconick.com/2019/06/07/the-problem-of-sexual-violence-in-ttrpgs/

"The Problem of Sexual Violence in TTRPGs"

Wow. So it's not this guy, it's a problem with TTRPGs in general.
No, if this person's account is true then it's a problem with this specific GM, not TTRPGs in general.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1091170The X-Card is open to abuse by a player determined to abuse it. It's just another rule for disruptive players to play lawyer with. It doesn't at all prevent anything.

All systems can be abused.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1091217I see the X-Card as giving disruptive players license to stop the game dead cold. Which is absolutely unacceptable. As they will use it to derail things for absolutely everybody else.

And I've seen players derail things because something like the #XCard wasn't present.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1091267I wish I could find the link, but the person at UK Games Expo they kicked the GM out wrote a blog entry. He said he knew the GM for a decade and that the GM was so respected and senior that they were the room leader. He also said that the GM did not deny/affirmed the allegations and that is when he told the action of kicking them out. The leader said he was shocked and did not believe it when it was first told to him as he had known the GM for years and never would have expected it.

...wow

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1091267And I also came across this account: https://draconick.com/2019/06/07/the-problem-of-sexual-violence-in-ttrpgs/

I don't think that the text interview of the GM is as conclusive as others here claim it is. The supposed first person account says that the GM said the characters were raped. The GM said he has a recording, but so far his explanation looks weak.

I'm inclined to believe these accounts, and if true would explain why we haven't heard the recording the GM claims to have. This "not going to link because they don't deserve the traffic" bullshit however needs to stop, because it makes getting the complete picture more difficult, and so far nobody has bothered to speak to both the players and GM. Not Grim, not Draconick, and especially not the #BBC.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1090172Desborough seems to gloss over what the content was. The  report on Twitter that started this is that the GM sprang a kidnapping and gang rape of their teenage PCs on the players. If you're going to spring that on an audience without warning or clearing it with the convention organizers ... I have some sympathy with UKGE here.

Yeah, IMO, that's not the sort of thing you spring on an unknowing, untested audience without some prep or warning, at least a rating and disclaimer. You don't put a graphic rape scene in a wide release moving without given it a rating, a public game should be be held to similar standard.

QuoteBut this, and the subsequent calls on TBP for universal mandatory X cards...

Implemented this though does seem like an over reach. People don't have a right to never be offended, even pissed off but they're adults and can voice their objections or vote with their feet.

Quote from: CarlD.;1091316This though, does seem like an over reach. People don't have a right to never be offended, even pissed off but they're adults and can voice their objections or vote with their feet.

   I was going more for the interpretation that "if you're going to abandon philosophical principles and social standards that certain things are inappropriate, you're not going to wind up with some libertarian paradise or dystopia, but with constant tiny regulations to determine what is and isn't 'acceptable.'"

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1091296All systems can be abused.

I'm afraid you misunderstand the criticism here: it lends itself to abuse because the person using it is above scrutiny, particular if you adopt the deluded mindset that is rampant on rpgnet.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1091296And I've seen players derail things because something like the #XCard wasn't present.

This would be literally only possible if the derailment couldn't have been prevented by anything else but an x-card. I don't think you (or anyone) can demonstrate that to be true.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1091317I was going more for the interpretation that "if you're going to abandon philosophical principles and social standards that certain things are inappropriate, you're not going to wind up with some libertarian paradise or dystopia, but with constant tiny regulations to determine what is and isn't 'acceptable.'"

If it came across like I was arguing with you, that wasn't my intent. I was talking about the suggestion of making the 'X-card' would be an over reaction, but your reply.

I was referring to the reason I don't care for the X card mechanics. I see too much potential for it to be a requirement and, to a large degree, it seems like a solution in search of a problem; the supposed problem being something reasonable adults should be to do something about both sides some respect, forethought and courtesy and standing up for yourself. It would have perfectly reasonable. "I didn't sign up for this, I'm going to bow out." No one is going to attack you or make you play and you don't need some printed piece of paper. Hell, maybe you might be able, I dunno, talk about the whatever the issue is and work out a solution.

As is so often the case, the peanut gallery on rpg.net has taken this particular ball and run out into the parking lot with it, but that's to be expected. It's the internet, overreaction is a tradition and this story pressed ALLOT of that site's hot button. Like "Sword Dream" or whatever hit allot of this one's.

Grim had a really good account of what an Xcard is like in play.

Imagine you're at a movie theater, watching some new film. A scene starts and someone doesn't like it and is 'triggered'. They hit the X-button on the armrest, and the film skips the rest of the scene. Now picture multiple people being upset about different things and how much of the film all the people who don't object are being forced to miss.

Quote from: CarlD.;1091374If it came across like I was arguing with you, that wasn't my intent. I was talking about the suggestion of making the 'X-card' would be an over reaction, but your reply.

I was referring to the reason I don't care for the X card mechanics. I see too much potential for it to be a requirement and, to a large degree, it seems like a solution in search of a problem; the supposed problem being something reasonable adults should be to do something about both sides some respect, forethought and courtesy and standing up for yourself. It would have perfectly reasonable. "I didn't sign up for this, I'm going to bow out." No one is going to attack you or make you play and you don't need some printed piece of paper. Hell, maybe you might be able, I dunno, talk about the whatever the issue is and work out a solution.

As is so often the case, the peanut gallery on rpg.net has taken this particular ball and run out into the parking lot with it, but that's to be expected. It's the internet, overreaction is a tradition and this story pressed ALLOT of that site's hot button. Like "Sword Dream" or whatever hit allot of this one's.

Have you seen anybody here demanding the sword dream morons be banned, fired, and their life ruined?

Laughing at idiots isn't even in the same planet as being a puritanical hypocrite evil moron.

And since you seem to have trouble telling when one thing isn't like another, we're laughing at the idiots. Who also happen to be the hypocritical puritanical evil morons trying to ruin everybody's fun and life.

This is actually a really simple matter. The GM launched a game that was extremely offensive for and/or to his players. The players were expected to imagine themselves as being victims of what is defined in our society as a terrible crime, and further they were not informed prior to signing up that they would be required to do this, to do this in front of a group of strangers, or in front of the general public.

James Desborough admitted as much himself, stating "If the convention organizers had known about the content of the game, they would not have allowed this on the schedule in the first place."

But then goes on to argue that the convention organizer should not have banned the GM for his violation of convention policy, where they specifically invoked the safe space clause, arguing that the GM needs a space to experiment and test the boundaries of his or her "game".

Just so everyone here understands, there is a  "safe space" clause at most conventions that prohibits anyone from running a game that may be construed as criminal. Further that sexual harassment, discrimination, or intimidation of any kind (whether from yourself, your staff, or event  participants) will not be tolerated. All gamers are welcome at a convention and deserve our respect. This is pretty much standard policy at any convention we as gamers and GMs attend. ...Also, I'm not sure why their has to be a special snowflake that is magically exempt from the rules and guidelines we all are expected to follow while we are attending such events.

Nowhere in the presentation did the GM inform the players of the experiences they were likely to have in the game. Imagine if any of the players actually had been raped as children, and then the GM sprung this little gem on them, right out of the blue at the gaming table. Yes, it would be totally appropriate for that player to step off the gaming table, but there is no reason I can think of that any gaming convention should have a game available in the first place that reintroduces a traumatic early life event for anyone. This definitely qualifies as sexual harassment as well as intimidation since the GM can't possible know beforehand which of his or her players may have actually experienced such emotionally damaging events prior to sitting in at the gaming table.

I believe a lifetime ban is totally appropriate for the idiot GM that willfully violated the UKGE safe space clause, and he/she is lucky that the ban is just for that convention.

I'm ok with any GM experimenting to test the limits on role-playing to find out just what constitutes an entertaining and fun game. In a controlled environment that minimizes the possibility of causing any permanent emotional harm for any of the players. This kind of experimentation is much more suited to a small private group that is fully aware there is going to be highly controversial subject matter as part of the game, a small group that is mentally prepared to deal with the consequences of seeing how the other players react in such a stressful situation. The key parts here being consent (of all the players), and (the GM providing information in advance about the subject matter of the game), so that the players can decide if they actually want to participate prior to actually beginning such an event.


Springing misery tourism on a group of total strangers under the guise of a "horror game", is totally lame even under the best of circumstances.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1091384Have you seen anybody here demanding the sword dream morons be banned, fired, and their life ruined?

As I'm not particularly interested in that crusade/Whingefest or whatever, I haven't been reading the latest SJW OUTRAGE!!!!! threads much But from I've read else where if it came up at all its an almost unheard of...something said some things so people didn't long Oh no.

I've seen enough of "we have to get whoever out of our game because they're doing/teaching/presenting it wrong"  type BS around here before. Give the talk about "sword dream" time when you make something like that out to be a threat or even worth starting A thread let alone two? There's been calls to cleanse the culture or what have you (never call it a community) of SJW, storygamers, leftists, die fudgers, those who like detailed descriptions, etc. So in answer to your question: give it time.

Hell, calling something kicking that dude from the con "evil" is an over reaction too. Its calls about a gaming convention some people didn't like not a new holocaust. If everyone had kept some perspective and level heads the latest tempest in a teapot would not have formed. I'm cutting rpg.net a bit of slack for the issues being something they get up in the air about such as rape not excusing anyone for blowing up over this shit. And I've seen similar snit fits on this site too over what bunches the drawers here. It's not a site of cool rationale angels.

Quote from: CarlD.;1091401As I'm not particularly interested in that crusade/Whingefest or whatever, I haven't been reading the latest SJW OUTRAGE!!!!! threads much But from I've read else where if it came up at all its an almost unheard of...something said some things so people didn't long Oh no.

I've seen enough of "we have to get whoever out of our game because they're doing/teaching/presenting it wrong"  type BS around here before. Give the talk about "sword dream" time when you make something like that out to be a threat or even worth starting A thread let alone two? There's been calls to cleanse the culture or what have you (never call it a community) of SJW, storygamers, leftists, die fudgers, those who like detailed descriptions, etc. So in answer to your question: give it time.

Hell, calling something kicking that dude from the con "evil" is an over reaction too. Its calls about a gaming convention some people didn't like not a new holocaust. If everyone had kept some perspective and level heads the latest tempest in a teapot would not have formed. I'm cutting rpg.net a bit of slack for the issues being something they get up in the air about such as rape not excusing anyone for blowing up over this shit. And I've seen similar snit fits on this site too over what bunches the drawers here. It's not a site of cool rationale angels.

Laughing at idiots isn't even in the same planet as being a puritanical hypocrite evil moron.

And since you seem to have trouble telling when one thing isn't like another, we're laughing at the idiots. Who also happen to be the hypocritical puritanical evil morons trying to ruin everybody's fun and life.

Why didn't the players walk out?

If they didn't walk out, why do they have any right to complain?

Hey, this restaurant sucks. I ate everything yesterday, but just remembered I didn't get what I ordered!!

Quote from: Spinachcat;1091440Why didn't the players walk out?

If they didn't walk out, why do they have any right to complain?

Hey, this restaurant sucks. I ate everything yesterday, but just remembered I didn't get what I ordered!!

I always thought that not walking out and then complaining about it afterwards was kind of an English thing to do.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1091440Why didn't the players walk out?

If they didn't walk out, why do they have any right to complain?

Hey, this restaurant sucks. I ate everything yesterday, but just remembered I didn't get what I ordered!!

I don't know why either. Possibly because they paid to go to the con.

What gets me is that TPB thinks an X-CArd would have helped the situation. The only problem is by the rules of the X-card you can use it to show what you don't like about a particular scenario or session. Yet not say anything. So either way the likely outcome is to asked to leave the table. Or people playing at a table end up sitting on their asses waiting for the session to end because the person who used the card is in no way obliged to say anything. So either way the tool to help the person who might be uncomfortable about saying something in game while helping the person also ruins the fun for everyone else. Apparently it is ok because screw everyone else at the table the person using the X-card is all important.

3,2,1 cue the "you never used an X-card or do not know how to use it" bullshit from those who like and support the card. As even with the quite noticeable and obvious flaw it is a perfect tool. Or so they say because it is all about the narrative of the X-card being perfect.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1091440Why didn't the players walk out?

If they didn't walk out, why do they have any right to complain?

Hey, this restaurant sucks. I ate everything yesterday, but just remembered I didn't get what I ordered!!

That is a good question. Sitting and taking something then going on to bitch about on social media has become a real thing in society.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1091394Imagine if any of the players actually had been raped as children, and then the GM sprung this little gem on them, right out of the blue at the gaming table. Yes, it would be totally appropriate for that player to step off the gaming table, but there is no reason I can think of that any gaming convention should have a game available in the first place that reintroduces a traumatic early life event for anyone.

Imagine someone who was beat up as a child by his father or by bullies or, worse, they experienced PTSD from firearm-caused violence in the US. Are you willing to ban violence from convention games to avoid the risk of any potential gamer having to be confronted with an imaginary situation that makes his trauma resurface? I think you're not making any sense whatsoever.

We could argue whether explicit sexuality has any business in convention games, depending on the convention. But, again, if you're having such a deep-seated trauma, you have no business playing a convention game with perfect strangers without it being incumbent on YOU seeking a clarifying conversation with the GM to begin with. It is NOT incumbent on the GM to presume that any of his gamers might have such a deep-seating trauma. We're back on the subject of some people being so presumptous that they expect the world around them to walk on eggshells. No.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1091394This definitely qualifies as sexual harassment as well as intimidation since the GM can't possible know beforehand which of his or her players may have actually experienced such emotionally damaging events prior to sitting in at the gaming table.

Wow, the mental gymnastics that some people are willing to go to just to get leverage over their fellow man is quite astounding. And when an NPC shoots at a PC I strongly identify with, I presume it is a form of mental violence by the GM against me as well? This is some serious socialist dictatorship-tier re-interpretation.

Again my reply is: no. You're not getting any control over anyone reasonable with your paper-thin excuses and rationalizations.

The game was, AT WORST, a dumb and anti-social troll move by the GM and, AT BEST, a terrible misunderstanding due to a poor taste in plot. You're shooting yourself in the foot if you elevate it to more than that.

QuoteThis definitely qualifies as sexual harassment as well as intimidation since the GM can't possible know beforehand which of his or her players may have actually experienced such emotionally damaging events prior to sitting in at the gaming table.

Seriously? Really? Seriously? Sexual fucking harassment AND intimidation? Jesus, fuck me backwards. Following your logic then, EVERY GM might as well just offer games of My Little Pony because there is no earthly fucking way they can know if their games are going to sexually harass and intimidate, so better not take that risk, eh?

For fuck's sake. The GM was a prick, but he's not guilty of sexual harassment or intimidation. Get a fucking grip.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1091468And when an NPC shoots at a PC I strongly identify with, I presume it is a form of mental violence by the GM against me as well? This is some serious socialist dictatorship-tier re-interpretation.

Again my reply is: no. You're not getting any control over anyone reasonable with your paper-thin excuses and rationalizations.

The game was, AT WORST, a dumb and anti-social troll move by the GM and, AT BEST, a terrible misunderstanding due to a poor taste in plot. You're shooting yourself in the foot if you elevate it to more than that.

I agree that this is tastelessness rather than a crime. *However*, I don't think that it needs to be that extreme for the convention take action.

If a GM has poor taste in plot to the detriment of player enjoyment, then the convention is justified in banning them. The reductio ad absurdum is irrelevant. No one has a right not to be offended - but there also isn't a right to run games at UKGE.

Quote from: sureshot;1091455The only problem is by the rules of the X-card you can use it to show what you don't like about a particular scenario or session. Yet not say anything. So either way the likely outcome is to asked to leave the table. Or people playing at a table end up sitting on their asses waiting for the session to end because the person who used the card is in no way obliged to say anything. So either way the tool to help the person who might be uncomfortable about saying something in game while helping the person also ruins the fun for everyone else.

Bolding is mine above. It's a technically possible outcome that someone can use the X-card rules to ruin the fun for everyone else at the table by touching it repeatedly and not saying anything. But there are a lot of ways for a single player to ruin everyone else's fun. Just because it's possible doesn't mean it is the likely outcome.

Quote from: Shasarak;1091441I always thought that not walking out and then complaining about it afterwards was kind of an English thing to do.

Well, Yes.

The Mirror (I know ..) gives us "As the 40 most British traits are revealed, how many of them do you recognise in yourself?" including:

* Grumbling throughout a meal, but not telling staff so as not to cause a fuss
* Finding the American forwardness 'a bit much'
* Not asking for help so as not to 'put anyone out'

Im not an expert but I'd also add the more universal idea of normative social influence and, for example, the Asch conformity experiments (conducted at Swarthmore, USA). If the rest of the group are going along with the situation as if it's perfectly normal then it's harder to be the first to say that's something is wrong.

Quote from: jhkim;1091488I agree that this is tastelessness rather than a crime. *However*, I don't think that it needs to be that extreme for the convention take action.

Agreed. The convention runners are to be expected to protect the brand of their event whenever they see it threatened.

Quote from: jhkim;1091488Bolding is mine above. It's a technically possible outcome that someone can use the X-card rules to ruin the fun for everyone else at the table by touching it repeatedly and not saying anything. But there are a lot of ways for a single player to ruin everyone else's fun. Just because it's possible doesn't mean it is the likely outcome.

Again: giving a player such leverage over others without any scrutiny (because that would be victim shaming) is the problem I see here. The player using the x-card is above reproach, you got to suck it up without question. No. If you have a trauma you don't want to be confronted with, talk to the GM in advance. And if it's so crippling that you can't do even that, don't play with strangers at conventions. Get a regular group instead.

However, if a convention expects me, the GM, to suck it up and walk on eggshells to accommodate any professed or real phobia (by not confronting it with the imaginary(!!!) subject of the phobia), then I won't run games at that particular convention and that's that. There'll be more laissez-faire conventions... eventually.

I always abhorred the secret Land Mines of people's pet-peaves, triggers and emotional spring-traps. I also love people and would have to hurt anyone.

So, as in most things I support a reasonable middle-ground. Sure, it's not fair that people have to magically KNOW when trauma is hiding under the surface, but there are legitimate reasons why a traumatized person may not be so keen to share, ya know?

This is really easy to handle. Just be honest in your description of the game. Talk upfront about potential content. You don't have to give away the scenario, just highlight it with the same responsibility that the movie and video game publishers do. If anyone says they are not comfortable, you can warn them upfront. "I'm not going to change my game, but I am certain it might upset you. I really think you should avoid this game.".  OR you can edit the content so it doesn't hurt the person who was brave enough to be honest with you.

Accomodating people at a convention is an act of social grace. It's not only kind but also supportive of the convention itself. However, in some cases that be unkind to the GM (or yourself). You took the time to prepare a particular game, and were looking for like-minded players. There are usually tons of games to sign up for. There's no reason that one party-pooper needs to ruin your weekend. They can just as easily find another game.

EITHER choice is valid in my opinion.

Jkhm yes nothing will stop a jerk player or too easily offended player from abusing an X-Card. Except going by the rules of the X-Card as a DM and pkayer once in play their nothing much I can do. The rules of the card forbid any questioning or responsability from the player who may use it for nothing more than shits and giggles. Or worse knows whst to expect from the table beforehand for example killing orcs yet plays the card. I could reskin the creature yet sometimes depending on how important they are to the game  i can't.

I rather not boot the player from the table yet if I have to I will. It is a good yet fundamentally flawed tool that removes personally responsibility from a player. If a campaign is a spider hint and the player has a fear of spiders it is on the player and not the DM or the other players to be responsible imo.

As it stands I'm probably never going to use ut as is or with some minor changes.

I would never use the X-Card. It's an idea with its heart in the right place and it's execution all wrong.

The only way to prevent people from being butt-hurt is everyone being honest adults and talking before they play.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1091440Why didn't the players walk out?

If they didn't walk out, why do they have any right to complain?

Hey, this restaurant sucks. I ate everything yesterday, but just remembered I didn't get what I ordered!!

Because they payed for a ticket to sit at that table. As I noted a few times prior. That alone can make a person stick through something in the, usually futile, hope that things will get better. Or the, not unfounded, belief that they wont be able to get a refund. Happened to me at Gencon with a no-show GM. We waited. Waited. Waited a little more and finally packed and tried to get a refund. But were refused. I've still got that ticket somewhere in storage.

The other thing that can stall off leaving is... you allready booked that hour or two of time. So you now have an hour or two window where its sit here and hope it gets better... or... what? Depending on the time the vendor areas may be closed, eateries may be off site and do you really want to do this...

Alot of things can stall off leaving when something seems bad.

And as noted. Far as we know only apparently one player had any real issues.

Quote from: jhkimBolding is mine above. It's a technically possible outcome that someone can use the X-card rules to ruin the fun for everyone else at the table by touching it repeatedly and not saying anything. But there are a lot of ways for a single player to ruin everyone else's fun. Just because it's possible doesn't mean it is the likely outcome.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1091498Again: giving a player such leverage over others without any scrutiny (because that would be victim shaming) is the problem I see here. The player using the x-card is above reproach, you got to suck it up without question. No. If you have a trauma you don't want to be confronted with, talk to the GM in advance. And if it's so crippling that you can't do even that, don't play with strangers at conventions. Get a regular group instead.

However, if a convention expects me, the GM, to suck it up and walk on eggshells to accommodate any professed or real phobia (by not confronting it with the imaginary(!!!) subject of the phobia), then I won't run games at that particular convention and that's that. There'll be more laissez-faire conventions... eventually.

This runs counter to my experience. I've played and run in some very creepy horror games while using the X-card. It's not something I generally do, and I don't advocate that it be required - but I've played in over a dozen games that use it - plus run two games using it.

I don't experience that the game is walking on eggshells. Typically, I throw in the creepiest shit I think of, everyone has fun with that, and the card doesn't get used. I consider that the normal case.

That said, there have been cases where I've been concerned about content - both with and without the X-card. Mostly, this has had to do with younger players. There was a player in my last run of Bluebeard's Bride at a convention, who as we talked about material before the start of the game, said that she wasn't comfortable with sexual violence in play. Also, I didn't realize at the time, but I learned later that she was 17. I did tone down some of what I had in the game because of that, and I think that was a right decision. Also, I resolve to ask players if they are 18+ at the start of my game next time. But it's not like there's some magical line between 17 and 18 that completely changes people. Even if the player had been 18, I would have done the same thing. There's plenty of evil and creepy stuff for me to have in play without having sexual violence.

Quote from: Omega;1091520And as noted. Far as we know only apparently one player had any real issues.

I've seen complaints from two players:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1134606036663508997
https://twitter.com/GeekGirlBookWrm/status/1134503931932024832

Quote from: trechriron;1091508This is really easy to handle. Just be honest in your description of the game. Talk upfront about potential content. You don't have to give away the scenario, just highlight it with the same responsibility that the movie and video game publishers do. If anyone says they are not comfortable, you can warn them upfront. "I'm not going to change my game, but I am certain it might upset you. I really think you should avoid this game.".  OR you can edit the content so it doesn't hurt the person who was brave enough to be honest with you.

The douchebag that was banned for life at UKGE completely failed at this. Not only did he not talk upfront about potential traumatic content included in his games, only springing this on the players once the game began. He also deliberately omitted any mention of it during pregame registration which went against two separate convention policies, the "safe space" policy for gamers, as well as the convention policy which required the GM provide information about the nature of the game, describing this as horror was simply deceptive. I'll say it once more, even James Desborough acknowledged this failure, however went on to argue that dude shouldn't have been banned, even though he was in clear violation of two convention policies.

I know there are some folk here that enjoy "edgy" and "angst ridden" games. Do the majority of us a favor, and run your game in your hotel suite, or just stay home and run the game for your friends. I'm going to let you know right now, such games aren't going to be welcome in the gaming conventions I attend, especially if you being deceptive about your game content, and immoral or ammoral goals. Games are about recreation, and recreation is not about hurting or harming people, or testing your gamers morals, or their capacity to withstand pain or suffering, or anything else like that. If you think gaming is about that, I have some folks who would be very interested in testing your morals, proclivity for debasement, and unlawful conduct.

You fucktards that want to fantasize about your rape scenarios with strangers, stay the hell away from my gaming tables.

Quote from: trechriron;1091508I always abhorred the secret Land Mines of people's pet-peaves, triggers and emotional spring-traps. I also love people and would have to hurt anyone.

So, as in most things I support a reasonable middle-ground. Sure, it's not fair that people have to magically KNOW when trauma is hiding under the surface, but there are legitimate reasons why a traumatized person may not be so keen to share, ya know?

This is really easy to handle. Just be honest in your description of the game. Talk upfront about potential content. You don't have to give away the scenario, just highlight it with the same responsibility that the movie and video game publishers do. If anyone says they are not comfortable, you can warn them upfront. "I'm not going to change my game, but I am certain it might upset you. I really think you should avoid this game.".  OR you can edit the content so it doesn't hurt the person who was brave enough to be honest with you.

Accomodating people at a convention is an act of social grace. It's not only kind but also supportive of the convention itself. However, in some cases that be unkind to the GM (or yourself). You took the time to prepare a particular game, and were looking for like-minded players. There are usually tons of games to sign up for. There's no reason that one party-pooper needs to ruin your weekend. They can just as easily find another game.

EITHER choice is valid in my opinion.

This guy gets it.

I don't think further discussion really matters until we establish who is lying, because while the GM claims they never intended to imply rape, that's not what they're being accused of.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1091341I'm afraid you misunderstand the criticism here: it lends itself to abuse because the person using it is above scrutiny,

You mean like the GM?

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1091341This would be literally only possible if the derailment couldn't have been prevented by anything else but an x-card. I don't think you (or anyone) can demonstrate that to be true.

Prevented by a clear signal that the campaign has gone in a direction that causes suffering rather than merely offense or discomfort. And yeah, no way to prove how one really feels without a brain scan.

Quote from: Autumnborn;1091383Grim had a really good account of what an Xcard is like in play.

No they don't, because they've never actually seen it in play.

Quote from: Autumnborn;1091383Imagine you're at a movie theater, watching some new film. A scene starts and someone doesn't like it and is 'triggered'. They hit the X-button on the armrest, and the film skips the rest of the scene. Now picture multiple people being upset about different things and how much of the film all the people who don't object are being forced to miss.

You can walk out of a film, pause it on private viewing, and put down a book.

But the fact that disrupting a game affects others besides oneself is exactly why people tend to stick with things that stress them out when they shouldn't have to.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1091543You mean like the GM?

I have never met nor heard of a GM who was above scrutiny. I know, however, that victim blaming/shaming is a buzzword/hashtag ("We believe survivors"). And I know that the user of an x-card is above scrutiny in using it. It lends itself to abuse.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1091543Prevented by a clear signal that the campaign has gone in a direction that causes suffering rather than merely offense or discomfort. And yeah, no way to prove how one really feels without a brain scan.

So it could have been prevented instead by a player saying that they, for example, don't like this type of sexualized content and it's not what they've been signing up for?

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1091543But the fact that disrupting a game affects others besides oneself is exactly why people tend to stick with things that stress them out when they shouldn't have to.

Are they 18+? Yes? Welcome to being an adult.

For some people, especially those who grew up since the emergence of social media, it's their way of being an adult.

They go about their day, but then something/someone irritates them.

Instead of confronting the source of their irritation (in that case, speaking directly to the GM), they hurry to Twitter to whine about how someone has been mean to them. They do this in large part because they grew up in an overly protective environment, with helicopter parents ready to smooth over all discomfort affecting their little booboos.

On Twitter, they find some complacent listeners, many of them having grown up in the same environment. Those whiners then generate some anti-catharsis: they become angrier and angrier, desperate to find some emotional release ; and because their parents and educators have never taught them how to manage/get a grip on their feelings, they are caught in a spiral of reinforcing bad feeelings.

Soon enough they get utterly mad with rage. The one real thing that nurtures this rage is this gut-wrenching fear, simmering under the surface of their consciousness, that goes with the realization that they can't be at peace again with themselves, that they got no modicum of mastery over their emotional landscape. They are like terrified children... but alas it seems that today's adult voices can't be heard in the din of social media.

So, they project that fear and loathing to whoever/whatever triggered it in the first place. It matters not the real or perceived reason for their ire, nor the degree of the supposed transgression. That thing or person must be destroyed ! That person must symbolically die ![/b]

It can't atone ! It can't ever make things right ! It must be obliterated from society ! It's not even human - it's a Nazi, a monster disguised as human, the scum of the Earth !

RPG or basket knitting or whatever has got nothing to do with it. The Twitter mob is composed of deeply immature people masquerading as adults. But we as a society have not fully realized that yet.

We better change some things asap, lest the mobs soon demand blood in less symbolic ways. You think I'm exaggerating ? I've got three words for you: Salem witch trials. And another three words: Red Guard youths.

Quote from: jhkim;1091527I've seen complaints from two players:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1134606036663508997
https://twitter.com/GeekGirlBookWrm/status/1134503931932024832

Thanks. I am honestly surprised more did not speak up after. I would have at the table and after. This is NOT what I payed money to sit down and play.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1091543You can walk out of a film, pause it on private viewing, and put down a book.

But the fact that disrupting a game affects others besides oneself is exactly why people tend to stick with things that stress them out when they shouldn't have to.

This too. It is why I stuck with GMing a campaign after some players had pretty much ruined my enjoyment of it. I kept going out of politeness to the other players and because one of the problem players was suffering a severe medical problem. And they were VERY used to being really vulgar and offensive at a different group and actually were trying to tone it down for me. That helped alot in my decision to keep going. Especially when it could have been that players last campaign. All had fun.

But not disrupting others enjoyment, if you believe they still are, can also be a reson why someone wouldnt just walk.

Though my money is still on the money angle and you booked a time slot you usually cant get back without some effort or hassle.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1091394Just so everyone here understands, there is a  "safe space" clause at most conventions that prohibits anyone from running a game that may be construed as criminal.
.

What  exactly was criminal in any version of events. You seemed to in the same blinkered La La Land as the outrage mob are you one of them?

Quote from: jhkim;1091527https://twitter.com/GeekGirlBookWrm/status/1134503931932024832

This is the person that kicked it off so nothing new there.

Quote from: jhkim;1091527https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1134606036663508997

This one has his pronouns listed on his twitter which speaks speaks volumes.   I also noted that he has backed the Alien rpg no doubt he will go whining too twitter the first time a  facehugger tries to shoves it's proboscis down his throat.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1091530The douchebag that was banned for life at UKGE completely failed at this. Not only did he not talk upfront about potential traumatic content included in his games, only springing this on the players once the game began. He also deliberately omitted any mention of it during pregame registration which went against two separate convention policies, the "safe space" policy for gamers, as well as the convention policy which required the GM provide information about the nature of the game, describing this as horror was simply deceptive. I'll say it once more, even James Desborough acknowledged this failure, however went on to argue that dude shouldn't have been banned, even though he was in clear violation of two convention policies.

I know there are some folk here that enjoy "edgy" and "angst ridden" games. Do the majority of us a favor, and run your game in your hotel suite, or just stay home and run the game for your friends. I'm going to let you know right now, such games aren't going to be welcome in the gaming conventions I attend, especially if you being deceptive about your game content, and immoral or ammoral goals. Games are about recreation, and recreation is not about hurting or harming people, or testing your gamers morals, or their capacity to withstand pain or suffering, or anything else like that. If you think gaming is about that, I have some folks who would be very interested in testing your morals, proclivity for debasement, and unlawful conduct.

You fucktards that want to fantasize about your rape scenarios with strangers, stay the hell away from my gaming tables.

You are the fucktard you obviously no nothing about Essex lad culture nor 18/30 holidays  which anyone in the UK including the two whinners would have  know about.  It was signalled in the game description so do some research before you post pantywaist drivel like this. The Gm's only sin was not being aware or stupidly ignoring that assholes are out to make drama  for political reasons he should never of run that scenario unless he knew everyone of the people who had signed up. He is not guilty of trying to traumatise anyone with a child rape experience and he is not guilty off not flagging  the content.

Ok, so, a couple of facts here.
The Hilton is only a few hundred yards (took me 5 mins to walk) from the NEC, not a mile. All the role-playing goes on in the Hilton, so if you're interested in that, that's where you would go. That said, the roleplaying games are set up in their own rooms, and public viewing is not encouraged. So the chance of a passing family accidentally eavesdropping on the game was pretty much nil.

Why the people at the table didn't immediately complain? I don't know, but it could have been that the "process" the con had in place was that complaints about a GM should go to the "Room Captain", an experienced GM who is the first port of call for complaints. Guess who the "room captain" was? That's right, the idiot that caused this in the first place.

End of facts, now the speculation:

Maybe the players didn't complain at the time because they didn't feel like complaining was going to get them very far - after all the person they were supposed to complain to was the cause of the problem!

Having compared the information I've received from both sides, it's pretty obvious that this was a deliberate act that went completely against con policy and was sprung on a bunch of unsuspecting players. He knew exactly what he was doing and did it for his own amusement/education/whatever. It had nothing to do with providing a fun/interesting/unusual game for the players. So, he should and did get ejected from the con and never invited back. As to whether other cons ban him, that's up to them, but I won't be playing at any of his games.

And more than that, he's fecked it up for the rest of us GMs. Now we'll have to specify all sorts of stuff in our game outlines that wasn't needed before. Other cons I'm going to are now enforcing a PG13 limit on tables in the main room. But for some cons there's only 1 room so that means that ALL mature games must now be run in the chalets, not the main area. Pretty much all my non D&D games are labelled "mature themes 16+" Sometimes I used to put that label on my games just because I didn't want anyone younger than that playing, not because I actually had any particularly mature themes in the game. Can't do that now. Thanks, you doofus.

Previously, I thought X-cards and that sort of thing to be pretty useless, but if you wanted that sort of thing then more power to you. Not something that I'd ever use though. What's the betting they'll become mandatory and I'll be forced to have them at my table. Again, thanks, mate - way to go.

That's pretty much it from me on this subject. To quote an ancient comedian, I hope his rabbits die and he can't sell the hutches.

Couple of thoughts; yup, I think this GM should have been clearer about what people might expect, as in "warning: adult content, extreme violence" or some such.

Having said that; IT IS STILL JUST A GAME. Nobody actually got raped. Not even any pictures of rape were shown. We have probably seen similar/worse things in movies, and only yesterday I happened to click on a Youtube video that suddenly showed actual dismembered bodies. People should stop pretending that the gamers have suffered any real sort of damage.

Have you seen the Twitter thread about this? It is like SJW parody. The OP is shaking. People are offering moral support. Jessica Price jumped in with her eternal wisdom about abuse. Some of them is already attacking the organizers for being "extremely negligent". Someone is posting kitten photos to dampen their "berserker rage".

Here is a good target for your x-card.

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QuoteAnd more than that, he's fecked it up for the rest of us GMs. Now we'll have to specify all sorts of stuff in our game outlines that wasn't needed before. Other cons I'm going to are now enforcing a PG13 limit on tables in the main room. But for some cons there's only 1 room so that means that ALL mature games must now be run in the chalets, not the main area. Pretty much all my non D&D games are labelled "mature themes 16+" Sometimes I used to put that label on my games just because I didn't want anyone younger than that playing, not because I actually had any particularly mature themes in the game. Can't do that now. Thanks, you doofus.

Previously, I thought X-cards and that sort of thing to be pretty useless, but if you wanted that sort of thing then more power to you. Not something that I'd ever use though. What's the betting they'll become mandatory and I'll be forced to have them at my table. Again, thanks, mate - way to go.

Yeah... this. My local con is Breakout, which is like the living epitome of the Woke RPG Convention. X cards are mandatory on all RPG games, and there's an array of other 'safety tools' GMs are 'encouraged' to use (for that read: 'If you don't use them, you're clearly a member of the Patriarchy, and most likely a fucking Nazi). So as well as handling a table full of complete strangers, the story, the game mechanics, and a finite timeslot, you now have to factor in how at least one of these safety mechanisms works, and be prepared for it to be potentially used by someone feeling triggered and confused, but under no obligation to explain why. Running a game is turning from being an enjoyable activity into a minefield of social awareness and dancing across hot coals. So I don't go to my local con.

Following this debacle, courtesy of a prick GM, it'll get worse - not better.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1091543I don't think further discussion really matters until we establish who is lying, because while the GM claims they never intended to imply rape, that's not what they're being accused of.



You mean like the GM?



Prevented by a clear signal that the campaign has gone in a direction that causes suffering rather than merely offense or discomfort. And yeah, no way to prove how one really feels without a brain scan.



No they don't, because they've never actually seen it in play.



You can walk out of a film, pause it on private viewing, and put down a book.

But the fact that disrupting a game affects others besides oneself is exactly why people tend to stick with things that stress them out when they shouldn't have to.

"They"? Both Grim Jim and this GM are men.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1091530The douchebag that was banned for life at UKGE completely failed at this. Not only did he not talk upfront about potential traumatic content included in his games, only springing this on the players once the game began. He also deliberately omitted any mention of it during pregame registration which went against two separate convention policies, the "safe space" policy for gamers, as well as the convention policy which required the GM provide information about the nature of the game, describing this as horror was simply deceptive. I'll say it once more, even James Desborough acknowledged this failure, however went on to argue that dude shouldn't have been banned, even though he was in clear violation of two convention policies.

I know there are some folk here that enjoy "edgy" and "angst ridden" games. Do the majority of us a favor, and run your game in your hotel suite, or just stay home and run the game for your friends. I'm going to let you know right now, such games aren't going to be welcome in the gaming conventions I attend, especially if you being deceptive about your game content, and immoral or ammoral goals. Games are about recreation, and recreation is not about hurting or harming people, or testing your gamers morals, or their capacity to withstand pain or suffering, or anything else like that. If you think gaming is about that, I have some folks who would be very interested in testing your morals, proclivity for debasement, and unlawful conduct.

You fucktards that want to fantasize about your rape scenarios with strangers, stay the hell away from my gaming tables.

So.....did you hear that the game may not have contained any rape? What's with all the judging based one hearsay?

Quote from: Trond;1091594So.....did you hear that the game may not have contained any rape? What's with all the judging based one hearsay?

Based on the one interview done via text? As opposed to two players saying he specifically said there was rape and the responsible person who kicked him out at UKGE who knew him for a decade and actually talked to the GM before making a decision?

No one claims that rape was described as it was happening, but the players say the GM said the characters were raped and then tossed out into the street naked and hunted down.

Best case, as the GM said in the interview that he just said they had sore bums, was that he completely blew it and inadvertently implied rape but never meant to.

Other than the one interview, is there someone else claiming the players were wrong?

Quote from: Gagarth;1091575You are the fucktard, you obviously know nothing about Essex lad culture nor 18/30 holidays  which anyone in the UK including the two whiners would have  known about. It was signaled in the game description so do some research before you post pantywaist drivel like this. The Gm's only sin was not being aware or stupidly ignoring that assholes are out to make drama  for political reasons he should never of run that scenario unless he knew everyone of the people who had signed up. He is not guilty of trying to traumatize anyone with a child rape experience and he is not guilty off not flagging  the content.

These seem regional. Being from the US, I'm not familiar with the terms. What's the gist of them?

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1091600Based on the one interview done via text?

 Yes. Was there something you found especially untrustworthy about it?

Either way all I see is a couple of players who complain that the "edgy" RPG that they signed up for was a bit too edgy. Whether there was rape or not doesn't matter that much, see my comment above.

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1091590Following this debacle, courtesy of a prick GM, it'll get worse - not better.

The SJWs crowd will always be in ambush, and will find any pretext they can think of to dominate as much of society as they're allowed to. It has nothing to do with this particular GM, whether he decided to have the characters in his game raped or not.

Quote from: spon;1091577Previously, I thought X-cards and that sort of thing to be pretty useless,  [..] What's the betting they'll become mandatory and I'll be forced to have them at my table. Again, thanks, mate - way to go.

The SJWs crowd will always be in ambush, and will find any pretext they can think of to dominate as much of society as they're allowed to. It has nothing to do with this particular GM, whether he decided to have the characters in his game raped or not.

SJWs play strategically to gain ground. They'll back down only if they are opposed on the principles of their pseudo-faith.

Any con organizer who answers to their demands is digging his own grave. It's only a matter of time before he's pushed in it.

Resist the whiny bitches (and metaphorically kick them in the 'nads) or become their bitch, that's the choice that's offered us, fellow gamers.

I will be no bitches' bitch.

Quote from: Lychee of the Exchequer;1091620The SJWs crowd will always be in ambush, and will find any pretext they can think of to dominate as much of society as they're allowed to. It has nothing to do with this particular GM, whether he decided to have the characters in his game raped or not.

What I mean is that x cards and other safety mechanisms are more likely to become the norm for most conventions, rather than an optional tool. GMs will be forced to provide advance declarations of 'safe content', demonstrate their command of safety mechanisms, swear oaths to abide by individual player veto, guarantee that each and every game they offer is a certified safe space', and basically surrender themselves to an increasing list of 'Thou Shalts' rather then being able to run their games relatively free from bureaucratic & SJW interference. All because of a prick GM.

That SJWs are always in ambush is a given. But in this particular case, they've been handed a fucking gift.

Quote from: Gagarth;1091585Here is a good target for your x-card.

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My eyes ! My eyes ! How dare you mock this obviously oppressed cute little red guy ! Also, does it have its non-existent balls massaged ? Gross ! This here is obviously an attack on asexual Native American people !

...

Hmm, I just noticed the sentences in your sig, Gagarth. Are they real quotes °_O ?

Quote from: Lychee of the Exchequer;1091622The SJWs crowd will always be in ambush, and will find any pretext they can think of to dominate as much of society as they're allowed to. It has nothing to do with this particular GM, whether he decided to have the characters in his game raped or not.

SJWs play strategically to gain ground. They'll back down only if they are opposed on the principles of their pseudo-faith.

Any con organizer who answers to their demands is digging his own grave. It's only a matter of time before he's pushed in it.

Resist the whiny bitches (and metaphorically kick them in the 'nads) or become their bitch, that's the choice that's offered us, fellow gamers.

I will be no bitches' bitch.

Agreed in all. Couldn't have said it better myself. Also fuck their X-Cards or other means of control, I don't need a fucking Con to play, good luck trying to force that on my table!

Quote from: Gagarth;1091585Here is a good target for your x-card.

I agree, I hate dreads. :eek:

Quote from: Trond;1091611Yes. Was there something you found especially untrustworthy about it?

Either way all I see is a couple of players who complain that the "edgy" RPG that they signed up for was a bit too edgy. Whether there was rape or not doesn't matter that much, see my comment above.

I listed that 2 players in the game and the organizer who knew the GM for a decade all disagreed with the account in the interview. I also find that the GM was being evasive in the way they answered questions even though they did admit to have not told the players their supposed reason for being naked with sore bums. I am struggling to see the cause to support the GM here.

I have never been to any Cons in my 46 years (I started playing rpgs when I was 12 in 1984, what a glorious year that was), and I wouldn't start now either, but the X-card thing will probably be pushed hard by organizers in the future. And then the rpg business will relive the Satanic panic of the 80s but now the threat of censorship will come from the inside, spearheaded by the most delicate of the new gaming flowers. These people are already starting to claim my old hobby, bit by bit. I apologize to anyone who might not be of viking blood, a phallic tower of masculinity and straight as an arrow like me on this board (jk), but I feel it all began a few years back with a small minority of gamers, groups of female and hbtq rpg-players who claimed that they were shunned by us regular male gamers back in the 80s, and that they now are reclaiming the games. When I was 12, rpgs were consired to be a nerdy hobby (unlike riding horses or collecting Limahl and Alphaville posters). No girls WANTED to play with us and we never spoke about our gaming sessions in school, not out loud so that the pretty girls could hear us anyway.

I don't know how things were and are in the US and other countries, but that's just my very personal experience.

actually, it has everything to do with this particular GM. The con I'm talking about is bringing in X-cards specifically in response to his actions.

Quote from: spon;1091650actually, it has everything to do with this particular GM. The con I'm talking about is bringing in X-cards specifically in response to his actions.

Good, it is bound to create demand for cons without such restrictions and then those who need safe spaces can play at safe space cons and those who love some edge in their games can play at EdgyCon.com.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1091647I listed that 2 players in the game and the organizer who knew the GM for a decade all disagreed with the account in the interview. I also find that the GM was being evasive in the way they answered questions even though they did admit to have not told the players their supposed reason for being naked with sore bums. I am struggling to see the cause to support the GM here.

Why support the GM? Maybe because he didn't actually hurt anyone? The degree to which I support him depends a bit on exactly how much info the gamers had beforehand. For instance, he mentioned in the interview that he's inspired by movies like the Hostel. Was there any hint of this or that he was aiming for this sort of "shocker" genre? If you have seen the Hostel then you have seen worse shit than what he described.

My guess is that he didn't communicate it clearly, so if I were in charge I would give him a warning for this. But blocking him from future events, and doxing him (which is exactly what is going on right now, pretty openly too on Twitter) etc? There were no kids at the table. The reactions are ridiculous and over-the-top. It's just a game.

I wouldn't even have been upset if my PC woke up chained in some basement with ass pains. I would just look for the gimp box. The rape segment in Pulp Fiction where Bruce Willis character returns to save Ving Rhames character is the best in the entire movie in my opinion. How times have changed. Rape and revenge is also a central theme in classic movies like Deathwish and I Spit on Your Grave.

Quote from: Trond;1091654Why support the GM? Maybe because he didn't actually hurt anyone? The degree to which I support him depends a bit on exactly how much info the gamers had beforehand. For instance, he mentioned in the interview that he's inspired by movies like the Hostel. Was there any hint of this or that he was aiming for this sort of "shocker" genre? If you have seen the Hostel then you have seen worse shit than what he described.

My guess is that he didn't communicate it clearly, so if I were in charge I would give him a warning for this. But blocking him from future events, and doxing him (which is exactly what is going on right now, pretty openly too on Twitter) etc? There were no kids at the table. The reactions are ridiculous and over-the-top. It's just a game.

I cannot help you in the darkness and ignorance you live in. I hope you recover.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1091680I cannot help you in the darkness and ignorance you live in. I hope you recover.

Who was hurt except in their feelings? The reactions are over the top, because we have a bunch of nannies with the disposition of pirahhnas going after this guy.
His idea was dumb, the players didn't like it, and the con disapproved. Warn the guy to tone it down in the future. If he does it again, ban him. Problem solved, unless you want to use this incident to implement all kinds of stupid measures like X-Cards to make sure no one is ever offended again.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1091683Who was hurt except in their feelings? The reactions are over the top, because we have a bunch of nannies with the disposition of pirahhnas going after this guy.
His idea was dumb, the players didn't like it, and the con disapproved. Warn the guy to tone it down in the future. If he does it again, ban him.

Conversely, it's just a convention ban. He's not being hurt except maybe in feelings. No one has to actually be physically injured or traumatized in order to justify a convention ban. Being stupid or tasteless enough that it detracts from enjoyment of the convention should be sufficient.

NOTE: I don't know enough about the guy to advocate for or against a ban - I'd want more information about his other games and players first. I'm just saying that enough bad taste and poor judgment can justify a ban.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1091680I cannot help you in the darkness and ignorance you live in. I hope you recover.

Translated: Myrdin Potter has no idea on how to counter my argument.

Quote from: jhkim;1091691Conversely, it's just a convention ban. He's not being hurt except maybe in feelings. No one has to actually be physically injured or traumatized in order to justify a convention ban. Being stupid or tasteless enough that it detracts from enjoyment of the convention should be sufficient.

NOTE: I don't know enough about the guy to advocate for or against a ban - I'd want more information about his other games and players first. I'm just saying that enough bad taste and poor judgment can justify a ban.

Exactly. We don't have first hand info, and are getting conflicting reports. I bet the con organizers are in the same boat. Thus I'd go with a warning. You seem quite ready to endorse banning someone on admittedly little info.

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1091590Yeah... this. My local con is Breakout, which is like the living epitome of the Woke RPG Convention. X cards are mandatory on all RPG games, and there's an array of other 'safety tools' GMs are 'encouraged' to use (for that read: 'If you don't use them, you're clearly a member of the Patriarchy, and most likely a fucking Nazi). So as well as handling a table full of complete strangers, the story, the game mechanics, and a finite timeslot, you now have to factor in how at least one of these safety mechanisms works, and be prepared for it to be potentially used by someone feeling triggered and confused, but under no obligation to explain why. Running a game is turning from being an enjoyable activity into a minefield of social awareness and dancing across hot coals. So I don't go to my local con.

Following this debacle, courtesy of a prick GM, it'll get worse - not better.

Wow. Condolences people. This is not RPG gaming, not even close. I would never run or play a game where x cards are being used, at a convention, or privately. These "safety tools" you speak of seem to be options that would keep douche GMs from running games like the one described at the UKGE games show, only guess what... IT DOESN'T WORK!. IMO these "safety tools" are just a layer of bullshit being adding by sjw's to make gaming a tedious experience instead of an enjoyable one.

There is simply no substitute for a good GM who is doing his/her job right, and that job is to be an impartial referee that describes in-game events and then adjudicates those events to provide a day or evening of entertainment for the players. The key word here is entertainment. If players are offended, harmed, insulted, or otherwise have a negative emotional experience because of some traumatic event from real life being actually dragged into the game, the GM isn't doing his/her job right, and should be immediately ejected or removed. Because. they. harm. the. entire. hobby. not. just. the. game. they. are. running.

I deliberately spoke slowly so those folks with an IQ of less than 80, as well as Gagarth could just maybe grok this concept of what job a real GM is obligated to do.

Quote from: Lychee of the Exchequer;1091557The Twitter mob is composed of deeply immature people masquerading as adults. But we as a society have not fully realized that yet.

We better change some things asap, lest the mobs soon demand blood in less symbolic ways. You think I'm exaggerating ? I've got three words for you: Salem witch trials. And another three words: Red Guard youths.

Good point and good breakdown of this immature behavior sweeping social media. Its also why we're seeing more violence at political rallies. The freaks have been told they are in charge, and constantly being rewarded for screeching and whining.

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1091590Running a game is turning from being an enjoyable activity into a minefield of social awareness and dancing across hot coals. So I don't go to my local con.

There are probably FAR more gamers like you who don't want Woke Shit in their gaming than attendees of that local con. This is a rich opportunity for somebody to start a rival event.

Quote from: Lychee of the Exchequer;1091622Any con organizer who answers to their demands is digging his own grave. It's only a matter of time before he's pushed in it.

Exactly. Any con which changes itself because of ONE GM at ONE CON is fucking stupid.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1091699If players are offended, harmed, insulted, or otherwise have a negative emotional experience because of some traumatic event from real life being actually dragged into the game, the GM isn't doing his/her job right, and should be immediately ejected or removed. Because. they. harm. the. entire. hobby. not. just. the. game. they. are. running.

GMs are not telepathic therapists.

We don't volunteer to spend our free time walking on eggshells around asshats.

You think just running vanilla D&D will protect you? Wrong. Maybe you missed the part where killing orcs is White Supremacy. So you're running your plain as plain can be D&D game and you think everyone is having fun whacking those orcs, but next thing you know, the asshat runs to Twitter because you gave them a "negative emotional experience" where they were "offended, harmed and insulted"!!!

And now, one GM does not harm the entire hobby. We've had plenty of GMs over the decades do stupid shit (including some GMs who turned out to be actual criminals) and yet miraculously, the rest of us went on enjoying our hobby just fine.

However, if we give in to the SJW garbage, then the hobby is in trouble.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1091653Good, it is bound to create demand for cons without such restrictions and then those who need safe spaces can play at safe space cons and those who love some edge in their games can play at EdgyCon.com.

It NEVER works that way. Ever. Either their SAFE-con fails. And I have seen this before with the moral guardians of the 90s. Or they branch out to other cons anyhow to "SAVE" them, from themselves.

I see no reason why a competing event with its own values can't be created, and succeed in drawing in its own audience.

Of course, starting a con isn't easy. There's plenty of work, but its not rocket science.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1091700GMs are not telepathic therapists.

We don't volunteer to spend our free time walking on eggshells around asshats.

You think just running vanilla D&D will protect you? Wrong. Maybe you missed the part where killing orcs is White Supremacy. So you're running your plain as plain can be D&D game and you think everyone is having fun whacking those orcs, but next thing you know, the asshat runs to Twitter because you gave them a "negative emotional experience" where they were "offended, harmed and insulted"!!!

And now, one GM does not harm the entire hobby. We've had plenty of GMs over the decades do stupid shit (including some GMs who turned out to be actual criminals) and yet miraculously, the rest of us went on enjoying our hobby just fine.

However, if we give in to the SJW garbage, then the hobby is in trouble.

No one here said you had to be a therapist or to walk around on eggshells around asshats, so, ...not sure where that is coming from, ...however am sure about the intent of this comment.  Duly noted. It shouldn't be too difficult for you to manage to at least be civil to the players at your gaming table though, eh?

I didn't miss the part about killing orcs, I'm quite aware there is a group of misanthropes that sincerely believes that my idea of a good fantasy role-playing game is "badwrongfun". I find it is a great irony that for the vast majority of them I was actually playing the game, ...in fact running these game, ...before they were born.  Should I even care what they think about my games, ...and if so, why?

After a short period of expansion where I started running RPG games at conventions again since 2016, I have over the last year reduced the number of conventions I have been attending. I'm actually comfortable with that decision by the way, because for most of the people going to the shows, I wouldn't be interested in hosting a game for, and for the reason they are going to the shows, I'm not interested in attending. The shows have inherently changed, and they are no longer about gamers getting together to have a good time, but much more about gaming companies obtaining new customers, and new markets. It's all about the Benjamins, and no longer about meeting new players, and learning from other GMs. The new GM's have nothing to teach, because they create no original content, ...they only consume.

One GM can and does harm the hobby much more often than you think. I can think of three examples right off the top of my head. The hobby is not what it once was, and may never be the way that it was again.

I'd be happy if all the sjw's just dropped dead, but that is not likely to happen. I'll just have to content myself with staying as far away from them as possible, and privately enjoying my games with my group of friends who appreciate the virtues of a playing traditional fantasy and sci-fi roleplaying games.

What gets me is how SJWs have twisted the meaning of entitlement imo. Before one person demanding everything and anything be done their way and only their way was the textbook definition of what entitlement was and is. Now to justify their entitlement it is the reverse. Anyone and everyone who refuses to cater to their desires is entitled. No matter if someone travelled 2-3 hours to get to a convention game. Paid to get into the same convention. Someone uses an X-card well too bad so sad buttercup. Who cares about the time one traveled or the money being spent to get to the con. Or worse the time wasted. If someone uses the X-card not only is one supposed to bend over backwards to accommodate them. One is supposed to be happy at all times. I swear SJWs especially the ones over at TBP will be surprised and very disappointed imo. I will try and work with someone using an X-card. I'm not travelling for a very long time, paying to get into the con, only to have my time wasted at the table because one person out of the entire table uses an X-card then proceeds to not say anything about why an X-card was used. I try to work with them if not they will be politely booted from the table. Unlike the perfect world con scenarios that SJWs like to dream up. More often than not the X-card person will be booted from the table despite what the rules of the X-card demand everyone else at the table do.

As for the offending DM I still think he was and is clueless as fuck and his explanation for his actions equally as weak. He set out to troll and offend his players and when it backfired trying to cover his ass. That kind of immature shit both from players and DMs pisses me off and you will not get any sympathy from me if you try that kind of shit.

Quote from: CarlD.;1091601These seem regional. Being from the US, I'm not familiar with the terms. What's the gist of them?

It has already been explained further up the thread.

Quote from: Trond;1091694Translated: Myrdin Potter has no idea on how to counter my argument.

Actual transaction, there is no argument to counter. If you think springing a rape scenario on players not expecting it or warned about it in advance and that the decision by the con organizer on someone that was known for 10 years has less weight than a very weak defense where the GM admits that he did not tell the players any of the supposed background for why they were as they were, then I cannot argue with a fool and will not even try.

Quote from: Gagarth;1091714It has already been explained further up the thread.

I didn't see they're earlier mention and searching  this thread turned up nothing for whatever reason. This thread is 33 pages long for my settings so going through its post by post would mind numbing. So I asked for a brief definition

"They're obscenities" or the like would have sufficed, no encyclopedia entry length description required.  But given the current lack of response, I have to assume the point of them beyond what can be gathered from context isn't really that important to the points being discussed. *shrug*

I feel charitable towards my fellow gamer today, so here's for you CarlID:

ESSEX BOYS in all their shitty glory !

Quote from: JMcL63;1090856Essex boys were infamous in, IIRC, the 1990s, as particularly laddish youth and young men from the county of Essex in southern England- real dudebros if you will. Club 18/30 was an actual holiday company (which only ceased trading last year), which sent young people, aged 18-30 (surprise) on package holidays to typical party island destinations. One third of customers- average age 19-  were travelling on holiday without their parents for the first time. As you can imagine, these holidays were infamous for drinking and sex. Think 'spring break' if you will. So "grubby little Essex boys" on a "club 18/30" holiday conjures up an image of excess and debauchery. Add in the Inbetweeners references that Gagarth so helpfully provided, and you get an idea of what the GM had in mind when he conceived his scenario.

Quote from: Lychee of the Exchequer;1091727I feel charitable towards my fellow gamer today, so here's for you CarlID:

And its not even my birthday. Thanks

Quote from: GameDaddy;1091530The douchebag that was banned for life at UKGE completely failed at this. Not only did he not talk upfront about potential traumatic content included in his games, only springing this on the players once the game began. He also deliberately omitted any mention of it during pregame registration which went against two separate convention policies, the "safe space" policy for gamers, as well as the convention policy which required the GM provide information about the nature of the game, describing this as horror was simply deceptive. I'll say it once more, even James Desborough acknowledged this failure, however went on to argue that dude shouldn't have been banned, even though he was in clear violation of two convention policies.

I know there are some folk here that enjoy "edgy" and "angst ridden" games. Do the majority of us a favor, and run your game in your hotel suite, or just stay home and run the game for your friends. I'm going to let you know right now, such games aren't going to be welcome in the gaming conventions I attend, especially if you being deceptive about your game content, and immoral or ammoral goals. Games are about recreation, and recreation is not about hurting or harming people, or testing your gamers morals, or their capacity to withstand pain or suffering, or anything else like that. If you think gaming is about that, I have some folks who would be very interested in testing your morals, proclivity for debasement, and unlawful conduct.

You fucktards that want to fantasize about your rape scenarios with strangers, stay the hell away from my gaming tables.

Quote from: CarlD.;1091601These seem regional. Being from the US, I'm not familiar with the terms. What's the gist of them?

Club 18-30 was a commercial vacation company offering cheap combos of Spring Break meets Jersey Shore (mostly around the Mediterranean). Essex lad culture is Jersey Shore turned up to eleven basically.


The phenomenon was in equal parts popular and hated-upon, with more than a few controversies (and deaths!) over the years.

To put into context just how nuts some of these outings became, the British Consul in Ibiza(?) resigned, he was so embarrassed by having to cleaning up the (literal and diplomatic) messes caused by drunken British louts, and at least one country / region / town changed its laws to damp things down a bit.


As someone who was 18-30 during Club 18-30's heyday, I'm fine with GameDaddy's analysis. Gagarth's hostility is as misplaced as it is unsurprising.

There was nothing wrong with the UKGE game's pitch. There was plenty wrong with its execution.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1091717Actual transaction, there is no argument to counter. If you think springing a rape scenario on players not expecting it or warned about it in advance and that the decision by the con organizer on someone that was known for 10 years has less weight than a very weak defense where the GM admits that he did not tell the players any of the supposed background for why they were as they were, then I cannot argue with a fool and will not even try.

Of course there is an argument. When did I say that it has less weight? I said that there might not actually have been a rape scenario. But maybe there was. (But no, I don't really put a lot more trust in the "literally shaking" twitter user, and the organizer who wasn't there. So there's that. Maybe the other gamer?)
But more importantly; either way IT IS JUST A GAME, and a game for adults in this case. You and others have probably murdered multiple people in your games without consequence in your campaigns. My character was once burnt alive. WTF is the big deal whenever someone uses the word RAEP! The gamers joined an 18+ game, that wasn't quite enough of a hint I guess, but the GM also shouldn't be thrown under the bus like this. The over-reaction is ridiculous and indicates that the organizers are eager to try to show themselves as "allies".

So I'll boil it down for you, since it seems to be a bit hard to get through your knuckle head: the argument is that it was a GAME specifically for ADULTS. Why does it make sense to treat the gamers as if they were actual victims of some grievous wrongdoing? What happened to rolling your eyes at the GM, going "seriously dude" and moving on?

Quote from: sureshot;1091713What gets me is how SJWs have twisted the meaning of entitlement imo. Before one person demanding everything and anything be done their way and only their way was the textbook definition of what entitlement was and is. Now to justify their entitlement it is the reverse. Anyone and everyone who refuses to cater to their desires is entitled. ....

That's a good observation.

Also, if you don't agree with the super-fragile and highly strung morons, then you yourself are "fragile" (as in "white male fragility").

Quote from: Trond;1091738That's a good observation.

Also, if you don't agree with the super-fragile and highly strung morons, then you yourself are "fragile" (as in "white male fragility").

Or a Nazi, Fascit, Alt-RIght (Reich) supporter. Who engages in white male emotional appropriation or so other equally stupid sounding bullshit.

Only in the fevered SJW dreams will most tables allow their respectives sessions grind to a comple halt. Either X-card gives an explanation for using it or they get asked to leave. Especially at home games.

Quote from: Trond;1091736So I'll boil it down for you, since it seems to be a bit hard to get through your knuckle head: the argument is that it was a GAME specifically for ADULTS. Why does it make sense to treat the gamers as if they were actual victims of some grievous wrongdoing? What happened to rolling your eyes at the GM, going "seriously dude" and moving on?

It's true that having tasteless shit in an RPG is not an actual crime - but conversely, kicking someone out of a convention also isn't like throwing someone in jail.

You're acting like there should have to be a criminal action and court conviction in order to do anything to the GM. What happened to just saying "Fuck off and move along" - and getting on with life? There have been a number of people banned from here on theRPGsite, for example, for thin reasons IMO. It's Pundit's forum and that's his call. I sometimes register my disagreement, but I don't get my panties in a twist over it.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1091695Exactly. We don't have first hand info, and are getting conflicting reports. I bet the con organizers are in the same boat. Thus I'd go with a warning. You seem quite ready to endorse banning someone on admittedly little info.

Even these days, not everything happens online. I suspect that plenty of people who might know something aren't online following the Twitter drama. So the organizers may well have better information than me.

Quote from: jhkim;1091757It's true that having tasteless shit in an RPG is not an actual crime - but conversely, kicking someone out of a convention also isn't like throwing someone in jail.

You're acting like there should have to be a criminal action and court conviction in order to do anything to the GM. What happened to just saying "Fuck off and move along" - and getting on with life? There have been a number of people banned from here on theRPGsite, for example, for thin reasons IMO. It's Pundit's forum and that's his call. I sometimes register my disagreement, but I don't get my panties in a twist over it.

There is a bit more to it than that. The "victims" have been offered assistance as if they are in deep distress (from both the organizers and random other people), people on twitter immediately went after the GM's personal info (who has been banned from life from the convention), and it even went on the BBC news. This is a GAME in which we regularly "KILL" each other, get eaten by soul-devouring monsters, get burned alive, or go to war. Part of the point is that we live (imaginary) lives on the edge. But that "r" word, maybe just hinted at for all we know, in a game where no kids were allowed, that is just too much. Despite the fact that such things have been used as a major motivator in movies like "Kill Bill" or "Girl With the Dragon Tattoo" or the Artesia comics etc etc etc. OK, it's icky, people should have been give a bit more of a hint, although it's really no worse than much of the stuff that often goes down in RPGs.

Does anyone see what I'm getting at here?

Quote from: jhkim;1091757Even these days, not everything happens online. I suspect that plenty of people who might know something aren't online following the Twitter drama. So the organizers may well have better information than me.

Considering the visibility this issue has gotten, and the necessity of responding in order to cover their asses legally, I think we would have heard if they had more info.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1091772Considering the visibility this issue has gotten, and the necessity of responding in order to cover their asses legally, I think we would have heard if they had more info.

Or we haven't heard any more info because, after the initial burst of visibility, sensible people realized it's just a pile of nothing and moved on.

I'd have gotten up and walked out.  OK, who am I kidding?  With that description, I'd have never been in the game in the first place.  So I've got no particular reason to defend the guy's behavior.  I think the larger point here is that when "SJW", "banned", and similar terms are in the conversation, the SJW no longer get any benefit of the doubt.  Nor should they.  (It's off-topic, but as we are having this conversation, anyone that bothers to look can see the same targeted "deplatform" pattern occurring in several much more serious cases.  It's almost as if things like this are a distraction from their banning of people for no reason at all other than not having the approved opinions.)

A few years OK, I'd have assumed that the GM was a jerk, everyone else was probably fairly reasonable, and he had it coming.  Might very well have been wrong, but that would have been my base, uninformed opinion.  Now?  I think there's a good chance he was a convenient target.  Still could be wrong.  But that's the underlying story--that the default position of reasonableness has moved.  Talk about your inadvertent Overton Window.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1091772Considering the visibility this issue has gotten, and the necessity of responding in order to cover their asses legally, I think we would have heard if they had more info.

In my limited experience, usually people stop posting online if there is potential legal action. Posts on Twitter rarely help a court case. Saying something quickly and wrong is more likely to get you in trouble than anything you do right. I'm not sure about that - but that's kind of my point. I wouldn't assume that I know everything there is to know compared to someone who is personally involved.

Conversely, I know that the few in-person cases of controversy within my gaming communities haven't been fully told online. (And I consider that a very good thing.)

Quote from: GameDaddy;1091707No one here said you had to be a therapist or to walk around on eggshells around asshats, so, ...not sure where that is coming from,

If GMs have to be "aware" of "triggers" their players may have (aka, their mental illness of the week) and then change everything going on in the room until the player in question is feeling "safe" again, we're definitely talking about telepathic therapists and those poor GMs lacking telepathy, get to walk around on eggshells not knowing which of the players at this session is a fucking Twitter asshat.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1091707It shouldn't be too difficult for you to manage to at least be civil to the players at your gaming table though, eh?

Be civil? The GM wasn't banned for his failure to be nice and polite to the players.

He was banned for the content of his Adults-Only game.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1091707Should I even care what they think about my games, ...and if so, why?

Because while you're prancing about on your high horse about this UKGE GM, you don't see how you could be next year's "problematic GM".

This GM didn't turn an all ages event into a rapefest. He didn't have explicit raping happening during his 18+ game, just the suggestion of what may had happened when the PCs were drugged and captured.

But maybe you will be caught encouraging an innocent con attendee to murder rooms full of black people. You would call that fictional fighting against imaginary orcs, but that's only your racism and privilege speaking once the asshat players get to Twitter.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1091707The new GM's have nothing to teach, because they create no original content, ...they only consume.

Organized Play has the advantage of the GM not getting in trouble if they just read the corporate text, roll their dice at the approved times and run the game as described by the goodthink game designers.

If an asshat runs to Twitter after a Pathfinder or 5e corporate event, the GM can just blame the text and the outrage mob can retarget the company instead.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1091707One GM can and does harm the hobby much more often than you think.

If the hobby is so pathetic, frightened and weak that one GM can harm the entire community, then the hobby deserves to die.

Any large enough gathering of humans is going to have some bad apples.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1091707I'll just have to content myself with staying as far away from them as possible, and privately enjoying my games with my group of friends who appreciate the virtues of a playing traditional fantasy and sci-fi roleplaying games.

THIS is exactly why there needs to be conventions that stand against this SJW bullshit.

Quote from: Trond;1091736Why does it make sense to treat the gamers as if they were actual victims of some grievous wrongdoing? What happened to rolling your eyes at the GM, going "seriously dude" and moving on?

Apparently, 18+ is the new code-word for "toddler".

But it should not be too surprising. Personal responsibility is antithetical to victimhood. In our age of social media and identity politics, the victims are the heroes.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1091705I see no reason why a competing event with its own values can't be created, and succeed in drawing in its own audience.

Of course, starting a con isn't easy. There's plenty of work, but its not rocket science.

Because a totally sanitized locked down con where the majority of your attendants are delusional sociopaths is totally not a recipe for failure.

What games can you run that one of these nuts wont somehow object to. How much scrubbing is needed before a game can be approved? If ever? You have run off the people and games who were most likely a draw to a con. They went elsewhere and all you have is woke-con. Added bonus if you treat any white males attending like lower than dirt.

Quote from: Omega;1091807Because a totally sanitized locked down con where the majority of your attendants are delusional sociopaths is totally not a recipe for failure.

I agree. That's why a not-Woke Con is a good venture.

A con where the "Code of Conduct" explicitly states you handle your own shit like an adult. GMs would be encouraged to be explicit about their games so nobody can wank off about being tricked into an adult content game after signing up for an adult content game.

Most cons aren't big business ventures catering to tens of thousands. Most are regional events, lucky to have 1000 people show and almost entirely run by volunteers. As the culture war continues to segregate people, the SJWs will become more strident creating more people who will want to game away from them.  

As I've mentioned on this forum before, I highly recommend smaller cons over the large cons. You don't need Origins or GenCon to have a great time. A few hundred gamers in a small hotel venue can often be a much more enjoyable gaming gathering.

Quote from: CarlD.;1091724I didn't see there earlier mention and searching  this thread turned up nothing for whatever reason. This thread is 33 pages long for my settings so going through its post by post would mind numbing. So I asked for a brief definition

"They're obscenities" or the like would have sufficed, no encyclopedia entry length description required.  But given the current lack of response, I have to assume the point of them beyond what can be gathered from context isn't really that important to the points being discussed. *shrug*

Here you go

Quote from: Gagarth;1090845Here is the game listing

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3463[/ATTACH]

Before non-British lynch mob enablers like Jkhim comment do yourself a favour and educate yourself on Essex lad culture, club 18/30 holidays and Inbetweeners.  The dreadlocked fucking woke scumbug that started all this would damn well know what that would entail.    What happened at that con does not justify the mob justice that is going on. Given the climate we are in he was stupid to run that scenario not knowing who was going to turn up, but something needs to be done about the woke lynch mobs.

Another thing the player characters were all male.  In Film and TV dramas  anything were a male is concerned is permissible even rape or the threat  of rape on male character is played for laughs (e.g. Happy! S1E7) and parts of male genitalia  found at crime scenes are  joked about in prime time shows like Bones.  Even the BBC saw nothing wrong with  a scene in Happy Valleys were a middle-aged police woman drags a boy into the back of a car and punches him in the balls.


In the mean time here is a few of things that will probably trigger Jkhim.

[video]https://www.facebook.com/BestInbetweenersMoments/videos/1750183215220472/[/youtube]

[video=youtube_share;7sq2Xc1BiZk]https://youtu.be/7sq2Xc1BiZk[/youtube]

https://youtu.be/REZ9le2qFD8 (https://youtu.be/REZ9le2qFD8)

[video=youtube;ln1m-PEfwUI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln1m-PEfwUI[/youtube]

I haven't chimed in but said GM is a complete douche.  That being said he deserves to be laughed and pointed at for being a no vagina getting neck beard but that's it.  This effort to ruin his life is too extreme.

https://millionwordman.blogspot.com/2019/06/on-inappropriate-content-in-games-and.html?spref=fb&m=1

Finally found the link I had misplaced. From the organizer.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1092058https://millionwordman.blogspot.com/2019/06/on-inappropriate-content-in-games-and.html?spref=fb&m=1

Finally found the link I had misplaced. From the organizer.

I found these bits interesting-

QuoteWhat we don't need is people spreading wild rumour and supposition, consider that I've had more than twenty people contact me, both at the show and afterwards, saying that they'd splashed the name of the GM out there, so as to make sure that they could never do it again…

Twelve of those people had the wrong name…

The first victim of the mob mentality is the innocent.

QuoteThe reason it took Expo as long as it did to make a resolution on the situation was because the problem was reported over social media and not to Expo directly.  Nothing was reported to the Expo front desk, the Hilton Manager, or any of the roving staff.  There was an email sent to me directly, but that was sent more than half an hour after I'd been made aware of the situation and by then, I was already investigating.

IMO one of the first rules about con incidents like these should probably be something like "Don't use social media to report con issues." People are going to use social media, but it is a pointless and self-defeating way to "raise awareness" of anything.

And for jhkim, it looks like this GM had a spotless record, and was trusted with being a "Room Captain" (Whatever that means)

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1092058https://millionwordman.blogspot.com/2019/06/on-inappropriate-content-in-games-and.html?spref=fb&m=1

Finally found the link I had misplaced. From the organizer.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1092060IMO one of the first rules about con incidents like these should probably be something like "Don't use social media to report con issues." People are going to use social media, but it is a pointless and self-defeating way to "raise awareness" of anything.

And for jhkim, it looks like this GM had a spotless record, and was trusted with being a "Room Captain" (Whatever that means)

Thanks. The con organizer post seems very reasonable to me. And I agree that using social media to report issues sucks. Realistically, there's going to be a gossip mill because that's how gossip works - but people can at least try to call for some stand against gossip-mongering when they hear it.

The GM apparently had no prior complaints. On the other hand, the organizers did check with all but one of the players - and apparently they all felt that the scenario went off the rails by that incident - i.e. it wasn't just those two players being extra-sensitive. If the GM has no complaints, it's a higher bar to ban them -- but then I don't know exactly what the other players said. I'd say the decision to ban him is within the bounds of reasonable doubt for me. I'm not endorsing it, but I'm not against it.

Wider rumor-mongering is definitely a problem, and I am against that.

It's also worth noting that the game had been going on for 2.5 hours before it went off track for the last 30 minutes. This might explain some of why the people didn't just get up and walk away.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1092060And for jhkim, it looks like this GM had a spotless record, and was trusted with being a "Room Captain" (Whatever that means)

Room captain was likely something along the lines of a staffer but possibly without any official status? Though at some cons seen the equivalent was effectively room security. You'd need someone who knows the con and how they are using the term to to parse out what his function was. But odds are it was some sort of organizer+low level security/complaints role.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1092077It's also worth noting that the game had been going on for 2.5 hours before it went off track for the last 30 minutes. This might explain some of why the people didn't just get up and walk away.

Didn't it start with the sore butt scenario?

Quote from: Trond;1092106Didn't it start with the sore butt scenario?

   No; everything I've heard is that the kidnapping ended 'Act II' and the waking up started 'Act III.'

QuoteAnd I agree that using social media to report issues sucks. Realistically, there's going to be a gossip mill because that's how gossip works - but people can at least try to call for some stand against gossip-mongering when they hear it.

This is one of the problems with dealing with the SJW hive mind. The first response to any perceived 'issue' is to reach for twitter and instagram first, rather than working out how to report things in the right way. Hitting twitter creates an immediate support community that will take the victim's side. They'll also jump to conclusions, whip themselves into a righteous frenzy, and dole out the pitchforks with abandon. They'll cry 'why oh why is no one taking action?' And the reason is usually that the ones who need to take action haven't been informed because the victims though it more important to get their support community arranged before actually telling the people who can do something about this shit. Same happened with SJG over the FFG incident. Fucking Helton and crew whipped up a nice little victim storm on social media, but no one thought to discreetly talk with SJG first.

SJWs and the Perpetually Offended need to have a social media support mechanism in place before anything else. Once rational, measured action begins, it erodes the credibility of the original outrage thus causing a collapse: witness what happened with SJG & FGG. Once FGG's joint statement with the victim of that Paizocon thing was released, it more or less killed the soc-med community, including the odious threads on Big Purple.

So while I think the GM at UKGE was a fucking tool, and the offended players had a genuine grievance, they went about things in the wrong way by hitting twitter first. I didn't help the investigation one bit. Had they sat back and thought things through, it would have been much different. It isn't hard to find a con representative to ask who you should speak to. Most cons have some form of front desk operation where concerns can be raised. Its up to the complainant to work out how to raise the complaint effectively. But instead, SJWs automatically assume that everyone is on fucking twitter. Shit don't work like that. Complain by all means but complain effectively. Find the right channel. Don't assume that con organizers or anyone else are fucking psychic or umbilically linked to twitter, snapchat, instagram or whatever the fuck else is hip and fucking trendy right now. And get your priorities straight. If someone's crossed the line, don't focus on mobilizing your Danger Hair Army first: they ain't really your friends; they're just gonna use you to fuel their Cause. Soon as their cred is shot to shit, they'll forget you ever fucking existed.

Go Raptors.

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1092242This is one of the problems with dealing with the SJW hive mind. The first response to any perceived 'issue' is to reach for twitter and instagram first, rather than working out how to report things in the right way. Hitting twitter creates an immediate support community that will take the victim's side. They'll also jump to conclusions, whip themselves into a righteous frenzy, and dole out the pitchforks with abandon. They'll cry 'why oh why is no one taking action?' And the reason is usually that the ones who need to take action haven't been informed because the victims though it more important to get their support community arranged before actually telling the people who can do something about this shit. Same happened with SJG over the FFG incident. Fucking Helton and crew whipped up a nice little victim storm on social media, but no one thought to discreetly talk with SJG first.

SJWs and the Perpetually Offended need to have a social media support mechanism in place before anything else. Once rational, measured action begins, it erodes the credibility of the original outrage thus causing a collapse: witness what happened with SJG & FGG. Once FGG's joint statement with the victim of that Paizocon thing was released, it more or less killed the soc-med community, including the odious threads on Big Purple.

So while I think the GM at UKGE was a fucking tool, and the offended players had a genuine grievance, they went about things in the wrong way by hitting twitter first. I didn't help the investigation one bit. Had they sat back and thought things through, it would have been much different. It isn't hard to find a con representative to ask who you should speak to. Most cons have some form of front desk operation where concerns can be raised. Its up to the complainant to work out how to raise the complaint effectively. But instead, SJWs automatically assume that everyone is on fucking twitter. Shit don't work like that. Complain by all means but complain effectively. Find the right channel. Don't assume that con organizers or anyone else are fucking psychic or umbilically linked to twitter, snapchat, instagram or whatever the fuck else is hip and fucking trendy right now. And get your priorities straight. If someone's crossed the line, don't focus on mobilizing your Danger Hair Army first: they ain't really your friends; they're just gonna use you to fuel their Cause. Soon as their cred is shot to shit, they'll forget you ever fucking existed.

Go Raptors.

Stupid Raptors will be messing up downtown when I go to a meeting tomorrow.

And one of the players went to twitter to comment on the bad experience she had because that is what social media is used for, to make comments. Instead of blaming her, maybe consider that it is not transparent to everyone, especially newer con attendees, of what exactly the complaint process is and why they should use it.

The link I provided shows why I think the "oh, the poor GM" narrative in this thread is ridiculous. The only ones spouting off his name are sourcing it from the YouTube video. The con banned him from GMing, but not from attending from what I have seen. That is not ruining anyone's life. That is a consequence to being dumb.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1092250Instead of blaming her, maybe consider that it is not transparent to everyone, especially newer con attendees, of what exactly the complaint process is and why they should use it.

No.  Stop defending Twatter outrage idiocy.  Full stop.  There is absolutely no way possible that this dipshit so-called "victim" believed that Twatter was the official complaint outlet, and not someone organized with the convention, such as, perhaps, the outlet he/she/it bought their convention tickets at.

Quote from: kythri;1092254No.  Stop defending Twatter outrage idiocy.  Full stop.  There is absolutely no way possible that this dipshit so-called "victim" believed that Twatter was the official complaint outlet, and not someone organized with the convention, such as, perhaps, the outlet he/she/it bought their convention tickets at.

Agreed 1000%

Quote from: kythri;1092254No.  Stop defending Twatter outrage idiocy.  Full stop.  There is absolutely no way possible that this dipshit so-called "victim" believed that Twatter was the official complaint outlet, and not someone organized with the convention, such as, perhaps, the outlet he/she/it bought their convention tickets at.

Nope, saying how great or terrible something was on your social media is pretty much normal behavior. There is no requirement that anyone has to report anything to the Con. Just like if I want to bitch about how bumpy my flight is now, I can make a Facebook post on it, I am not required to call United.

Focusing on this is just victim blaming. They did not drop a rape scenario like a giant turd on the table, the GM did.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1092269Nope, saying how great or terrible something was on your social media is pretty much normal behavior. There is no requirement that anyone has to report anything to the Con. Just like if I want to bitch about how bumpy my flight is now, I can make a Facebook post on it, I am not required to call United.

Focusing on this is just victim blaming. They did not drop a rape scenario like a giant turd on the table, the GM did.

"victim blaming"
"victim"

Yeah, the "victim" of a fictitious rape against a fictitious character that was not even described but just inferred by the player.

I have grown to hate the term "victim".

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1092269Nope, saying how great or terrible something was on your social media is pretty much normal behavior. There is no requirement that anyone has to report anything to the Con. Just like if I want to bitch about how bumpy my flight is now, I can make a Facebook post on it, I am not required to call United.

Sure, and their twatbook posts should be treated as less than nothing when determining or enforcing con policy.

QuoteFocusing on this is just victim blaming. They did not drop a rape scenario like a giant turd on the table, the GM did.

Fuck victims. Just because someone claims to be a victim doesn't mean they're right.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092270"victim blaming"
"victim"

Yeah, the "victim" of a fictitious rape against a fictitious character that was not even described but just inferred by the player.

Both the players that have gone public said the rape was not just implied. The organizer who has known the GM for a decade and talked to all but one of the players and the GM (only one to talk to both) bounced the GM for life. But, yes, let's pretend it was only "implied".

QuoteAnd one of the players went to twitter to comment on the bad experience she had because that is what social media is used for, to make comments.

As you seem in-fucking-capable of reading, let me spell out to you what I'm saying.

1. I've already, several fucking times, pointed out that the players had a genuine grievance, dumb ass.
2. I'm not rebuking the players for commenting on twitter. I'm saying that using twitter first, rather than trying to establish the most effective way of making the complaint, is fucking stupid, and typical of the Hive Mind.

QuoteInstead of blaming her, maybe consider that it is not transparent to everyone, especially newer con attendees, of what exactly the complaint process is

It doesn't take an intellectual genius to work out that if you have a problem at a con, you find a con rep and ask them what to fucking do about it. I doesn't matter if it's your first con or your 31st con. USE SOME FUCKING COMMON SENSE.

Quoteand why they should use it.

Give me fucking strength. If you have to have it spelled out to you 'why you should use' the official channels at a well organized convention, rather than your own preferred means of communication, then honestly, you shouldn't be allowed out the fucking house. If we continue to wipe the asses of some of these people, they are gonna continue to think that their fucking saviour is right there on the end of a fucking hash tag. Before you know it, their house will be burning down, and they'll be wondering why tweeting the fucking fire brigade DIDN'T FUCKING WORK.

Seriously dude, get a fucking grip. And if you're so pissed that the Raptors' celebration parade is gonna fuck up your day, why don't you send a fucking tweet about it? That should do the trick.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092270"victim blaming"
"victim"

Yeah, the "victim" of a fictitious rape against a fictitious character that was not even described but just inferred by the player.

The event they'd gone through some effort to attend was fucked up by the provider apparently through no fault of their own. They bitched on social media (hm, that seems familiar wonder where else that tends to happen allot...even guys that are in no way effected by what happened... maybe site or somewhere...) They lost time, part of their good time was shot because of someone else's mistake.

Saying they were the victim of a jackass isn't the same as saying it was the equivalent of being attack, but it is being a 'victim (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/victim)' of something. Allot of people are over reacting by trying to make it some false equivalency but the target of pick pocket, a con man, a drunk driver or someone paid for a bad show are 'victims'. Its not all on the same level. Common damn sense and understanding of language should tell anyone that if it wasn't for all Team jersey manufactured outrage bullshit that passes for thinking online.

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1092275As you seem in-fucking-capable of reading, let me spell out to you what I'm saying.
Seriously dude, get a fucking grip. And if you're so pissed that the Raptors' celebration parade is gonna fuck up your day, why don't you send a fucking tweet about it? That should do the trick.

He could come to this site and bitch about the obvious conspiracy those moron are colluding against him or whatever to work up a good rage boner for several pages.  It seems to work for allot of the other site members. This place used to at least be good for a few giggles, now its just...sad.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1092273I have grown to hate the term "victim".

But you depict one so well... as do so many on this site.

That aside what word then would you use for someone with a genuine grievance over something negative that occurred to them due to the action, inaction, thoughtlessness of another?

Quote from: CarlD.;1092278The event they'd gone through some effort to attend was fucked up by the provider apparently through no fault of their own. They bitched on social media (hm, that seems familiar wonder where else that tends to happen allot...even guys that are in no way effected by what happened... maybe site or somewhere...) They lost time, part of their good time was shot because of someone else's mistake.

Saying they were the victim of a jackass isn't the same as saying it was the equivalent of being attack, but it is being a 'victim (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/victim)' of something. Allot of people are over reacting by trying to make it some false equivalency but the target of pick pocket, a con man, a drunk driver or someone paid for a bad show are 'victims'. Its not all on the same level. Common damn sense and understanding of language should tell anyone that if it wasn't for all Team jersey manufactured outrage bullshit that passes for thinking online.

The correct term is "survivor". :D
They are survivors of a bad taste game.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1092269There is no requirement that anyone has to report anything to the Con. Just like if I want to bitch about how bumpy my flight is now, I can make a Facebook post on it, I am not required to call United.

And there's no requirement that we have to put up with bullshit like this.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1092269Focusing on this is just victim blaming. They did not drop a rape scenario like a giant turd on the table, the GM did.

Fuck victimhood.  There was no "victim" of anything.  There was an attention-whore who overreacted to a socially-inept goon.

Quote from: kythri;1092283And there's no requirement that we have to put up with bullshit like this.



Fuck victimhood.  There was no "victim" of anything.  There was an attention-whore who overreacted to a socially-inept goon.

I can bitch about a parade screwing up a business trip just like the player can bitch about a very bad tabletop role playing session. If other posters here want to call this a crusade by woke morons, when pretty much everything has backed up the story of the player that complained, then I can say they are the same thing as they are complaining about. Which I am here.

I ignore the extremes of online rpg discussion except to mock it. Not my fault that both sides ignore facts that do not suit their narrative.

Quote from: CarlD.;1092281But you depict one so well... as do so many on this site.

Ha, now who is victim blaming?

QuoteThat aside what word then would you use for someone with a genuine grievance over something negative that occurred to them due to the action, inaction, thoughtlessness of another?

There is a negative physiological reaction that happens when someone adopts a victim hood mentality.

Quote from: CarlD.;1092281But you depict one so well... as do so many on this site.

How would you say I've acted like a victim?

QuoteThat aside what word then would you use for someone with a genuine grievance over something negative that occurred to them due to the action, inaction, thoughtlessness of another?

The problem isn't the word. The problem is the social currency that being a victim affords.

Victims of a RPG session!!!

LOL.

How will those poor "survivors" ever recover? Can Twitter ever provide enough feelz and vibes to heal their trauma?

Oh, their wounds! Wounds caused by the GM's words because "Words are Weapons"!!

Bwahaha!

If we kowtow to this "woke" toddler bullshit and allow it to fester in our hobby, the hobby deserves to die.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1092320Victims of a RPG session!!!

LOL.

How will those poor "survivors" ever recover? Can Twitter ever provide enough feelz and vibes to heal their trauma?

Oh, their wounds! Wounds caused by the GM's words because "Words are Weapons"!!

Bwahaha!

If we kowtow to this "woke" toddler bullshit and allow it to fester in our hobby, the hobby deserves to die.

Luckily only a few cons and publishers will die, the hobby is safe from entryism thanks to the OGL, PDFs and POD. Fuck the Woke Morons and those who want to bend the knee too.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1092288I can bitch about a parade screwing up a business trip

So... you were a... victim... of the parade?

And so far in this thread its mostly been more than a few of us calling out the DM for poor behavior. And calling out the main player with a problem for not handling this properly. And the con for possibly over-reacting.

After that toss in the usual SJW screeching mob as they can not leave anything alone. Ever. It does not matter anymore what happens somehow, some way these loons will leap in gunz-a-blazin.

Was the player a victim? No not really. No more than being in the presence of any sort of general foul mouthery or crassness makes you a victim of anything. Had it been specifically directed at the player then sure. That is a totally different matter and can indeed constitute an attack as it were.

But overall this thread has been surprisingly even compared to some of the other blow-ups.

Quote from: Omega;1092328So... you were a... victim... of the parade?

And so far in this thread its mostly been more than a few of us calling out the DM for poor behavior. And calling out the main player with a problem for not handling this properly. And the con for possibly over-reacting.

After that toss in the usual SJW screeching mob as they can not leave anything alone. Ever. It does not matter anymore what happens somehow, some way these loons will leap in gunz-a-blazin.

Was the player a victim? No not really. No more than being in the presence of any sort of general foul mouthery or crassness makes you a victim of anything. Had it been specifically directed at the player then sure. That is a totally different matter and can indeed constitute an attack as it were.

But overall this thread has been surprisingly even compared to some of the other blow-ups.

I had to wait in line to check in for over 40 minutes, and this was in the elite lie. The humanity of it!

And the title of the thread and the posts by GeekyBugle shows the manufactured outrage. They can take their X-Cards and shove them but that has nothing to do with the actions of the shitty GM at the con.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1092341I had to wait in line to check in for over 40 minutes, and this was in the elite lie. The humanity of it!

And the title of the thread and the posts by GeekyBugle shows the manufactured outrage. They can take their X-Cards and shove them but that has nothing to do with the actions of the shitty GM at the con.

Agreed, there's manufactured outrage, by the woke morons and the "think of the children!" brigade. But I guess you think we should just bend the knee. Nope, not gonna happen.

My core problem with the UKGE incident is the slippery slope.

Everyone is free to deny any slippery slope exists, but you have to be willfully ignorant of the past decade. It's just paranoia...except the SJW brigade and their ersatz allies in the MSM and social media companies have been squirting grease everywhere. Yesterday, let's ban hate speech. Today, everything we don't like is hate speech.

Was the UKGE GM an asshat? Yes, including suggestions of rape in con game is dumbo dumb with extra stupid sauce.

Were his player's harmed in any way? No. Games aren't real. If you are too mentally ill to play fantasy games, don't play fantasy games.

Should the UKGE GM be banned? No, his game was listed 18+ and alluded to PCs being young morons on a spring break style sex drugs and booze party island vacation, AKA the same spring breaks where in REAL LIFE we regularly hear about REAL adults being abducted, killed, raped, etc. Therefore, its not realistic the player's didn't know the genre of the event.

Is the banning dangerous for the hobby? Yes, because it empowers the worst of the hobby, those who would impose their sense of safety, sense of entitlement and sense of righteousness onto the rest of us.

Quote from: Omega;1092328So... you were a... victim... of the parade?

He's still posting so apparently he's one of the parade survivors. So sad for the victims of that parade. My thoughts and prayers go out to them.

Fortunately, there's a GoFundMe for the brave survivors.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1092346My core problem with the UKGE incident is the slippery slope.

Everyone is free to deny any slippery slope exists, but you have to be willfully ignorant of the past decade. It's just paranoia...except the SJW brigade and their ersatz allies in the MSM and social media companies have been squirting grease everywhere. Yesterday, let's ban hate speech. Today, everything we don't like is hate speech.

Was the UKGE GM an asshat? Yes, including suggestions of rape in con game is dumbo dumb with extra stupid sauce.

Were his player's harmed in any way? No. Games aren't real. If you are too mentally ill to play fantasy games, don't play fantasy games.

Should the UKGE GM be banned? No, his game was listed 18+ and alluded to PCs being young morons on a spring break style sex drugs and booze party island vacation, AKA the same spring breaks where in REAL LIFE we regularly hear about REAL adults being abducted, killed, raped, etc. Therefore, its not realistic the player's didn't know the genre of the event.

Is the banning dangerous for the hobby? Yes, because it empowers the worst of the hobby, those who would impose their sense of safety, sense of entitlement and sense of righteousness onto the rest of us.

QuoteSo... you were a... victim... of the parade?

He's still posting so apparently he's one of the parade survivors. So sad for the victims of that parade. My thoughts and prayers go out to them.

Fortunately, there's a GoFundMe for the brave survivors.

This is so full of win, wisdom and lulz I just can't even.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1092341I had to wait in line to check in for over 40 minutes, and this was in the elite lie. The humanity of it!

And the title of the thread and the posts by GeekyBugle shows the manufactured outrage. They can take their X-Cards and shove them but that has nothing to do with the actions of the shitty GM at the con.

Well to be fair the woke morons DID start a witch hunt. And did get the GM banned.

But re-read the posts through this thread and you'll see an overall shift in attitude as it became more and more apparent what was going on.

You had a GM being tasteless at a con.
You had at least one, possibly 2 players afterwards complain to the mob rather than the con.
You had the mob then complain to the con.
You had the con kick the GM out.
You had the admittance of the GM that there was some crass material in the session that would have been offnsive to some no matter how he framed it.
You have the admittance of the players that they did not voice any displeasure and waited till after?

So overall its a daisy chain of screwups from everyone.

Should he be banned permanently? Possibly only if he did it again or had a history of this sort of stuff. Or if it turned out this was a set-up to deliberately cause an uproar. Neither seems apparent so I'd have just banned him for a year and issued a warning to be more careful next time.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1092250Stupid Raptors will be messing up downtown when I go to a meeting tomorrow.
And one of the players went to twitter to comment on the bad experience she had because that is what social media is used for, to make comments. Instead of blaming her, maybe consider that it is not transparent to everyone, especially newer con attendees, of what exactly the complaint process is and why they should use it.

What level intelligence do you need to figure out if you have complaint you go to someone with con staff badge and say "I would like to make a complaint".  Stop making excuses for entitled cry babies who have to have everything done for them.

I'm sure it's been posted before, but did you scroll the Twitter thread about this? It could have been SJW parody. The original complainant is "shaking", the organizers almost immediately investigate but it's not enough no matter what they do, the GM should be "banned from life itself", Jessica Price (enough said), they talk about doxing and releasing personal info, they talk about the safety of the attendants (as if they were ever unsafe).

https://twitter.com/GeekGirlBookWrm/status/1134503931932024832

Quote from: Trond;1092416I'm sure it's been posted before, but did you scroll the Twitter thread about this? It could have been SJW parody. The original complainant is "shaking", the organizers almost immediately investigate but it's not enough no matter what they do, the GM should be "banned from life itself", Jessica Price (enough said), they talk about doxing and releasing personal info, they talk about the safety of the attendants (as if they were ever unsafe).

https://twitter.com/GeekGirlBookWrm/status/1134503931932024832

If you go to Twitter you will find that kind of stuff. The solution should be obvious: don't go to Twitter unless that's what you want to find.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1092440If you go to Twitter you will find that kind of stuff. The solution should be obvious: don't go to Twitter unless that's what you want to find.

Commonly called burying your head in the sand.

At this point it seems the GM lied about not explicitly including rape in their scenario, and the 'victim' took the incident straight to social media instead of reporting it to the con, which led to the wrong person being accused. Also this wasn't their brother's first RPG experience.

So fuck both of them.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1091549I have never met nor heard of a GM who was above scrutiny. I know, however, that victim blaming/shaming is a buzzword/hashtag ("We believe survivors"). And I know that the user of an x-card is above scrutiny in using it. It lends itself to abuse.

And again, it's no more abusable than any other method or system present in play. RPG horror stories (https://www.reddit.com/r/rpghorrorstories/) is full of GMs overstepping their bounds and players "just playing their characters". And other players will talk to someone who consistently uses the #XCard to shut down the kind of play they want to engage in to either address the disconnect or explain that this is simply not the game for them. What's important is no one is judged or forced to explain themselves.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1091549So it could have been prevented instead by a player saying that they, for example, don't like this type of sexualized content and it's not what they've been signing up for?

The #XCard is there for when you need an immediate, unanbiguous, non-verbal signal to stop. It's an additional communications channel, not a replacement for one, and given what we know now would have prevented this incident.

Quote from: Omega;1091561This too. It is why I stuck with GMing a campaign after some players had pretty much ruined my enjoyment of it. I kept going out of politeness to the other players and because one of the problem players was suffering a severe medical problem. And they were VERY used to being really vulgar and offensive at a different group and actually were trying to tone it down for me. That helped alot in my decision to keep going. Especially when it could have been that players last campaign. All had fun.

But not disrupting others enjoyment, if you believe they still are, can also be a reson why someone wouldnt just walk.

It's somewhat ironic how often I see people suffer because they aren't more of an asshole :)

Quote from: Omega;1091561Though my money is still on the money angle and you booked a time slot you usually cant get back without some effort or hassle.

:p

Quote from: Trond;1091593"They"? Both Grim Jim and this GM are men.

Their gender is irrelevant to the situation at hand.

Isn't it?

Quote from: Spinachcat;1091705I see no reason why a competing event with its own values can't be created, and succeed in drawing in its own audience.

The only reason I can see is the #CtrlLeft will try to shut it down and defame everyone involved.

Whatever they can't control, they kill.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1092058https://millionwordman.blogspot.com/2019/06/on-inappropriate-content-in-games-and.html?spref=fb&m=1

Finally found the link I had misplaced. From the organizer.

Thank you.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1092060The first victim of the mob mentality is the innocent.

Which is exactly what happens when one puts feels over facts.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1092250And one of the players went to twitter to comment on the bad experience she had because that is what social media is used for, to make comments. Instead of blaming her, maybe consider that it is not transparent to everyone, especially newer con attendees, of what exactly the complaint process is and why they should use it.

The link you shared showed just how transparent and ubiquitous con support was. So if they didn't use it, that's on them.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1092250The only ones spouting off his name are sourcing it from the YouTube video.

No, shitstains like Jessica Price were already naming and shaming way before that.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1092269Nope, saying how great or terrible something was on your social media is pretty much normal behavior. There is no requirement that anyone has to report anything to the Con. Just like if I want to bitch about how bumpy my flight is now, I can make a Facebook post on it, I am not required to call United.

Yes.

And look where that gets us.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1092269Focusing on this is just victim blaming. They did not drop a rape scenario like a giant turd on the table, the GM did.

No, they just created a situation where the wrong person ended up being accused.

Quote from: Gagarth;1092544Commonly called burying your head in the sand.

Better than burying your head in Twitter.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1092545And again, it's no more abusable than any other method or system present in play. RPG horror stories (https://www.reddit.com/r/rpghorrorstories/) is full of GMs overstepping their bounds and players "just playing their characters". And other players will talk to someone who consistently uses the #XCard to shut down the kind of play they want to engage in to either address the disconnect or explain that this is simply not the game for them. What's important is no one is judged or forced to explain themselves.

You're wrong; this is self-contradictory. If the user of an x-card doesn't have to explain themselves, they are above and beyond scrutiny by the GM and the other players. There is no checks and balances to the x-card - and if there was you wouldn't need it (as you could simply talk about things). Thus, it lends itself to abuse. No checks and balances.

I will refer you over to the official x-card document (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SB0jsx34bWHZWbnNIVVuMjhDkrdFGo1_hSC2BWPlI3A/edit#) and this example from it (page 12, emphasis mine):
"What things have you seen X-Carded?
I've seen the X-Card used easily 60-100+ times (I play a lot of games with a lot of people all over the world). Examples:

• I described an NPC smoking. A player was trying to quit and felt uncomfortable.
  
• We played a modern realistic horror game. Someone introduced funny elves.
• I described plane turbulence. This triggered a player and luckily I stopped asap (we had to stop the game as well) and we did what we could to help the person in question."

Personally, I see the following potential causes for abuse of the x-card:

• A player gets triggered by all kinds of trivial stuff
• A player uses the x-card to draw attention (the twitter response to the UKGE event shows that people love to do that - not only do they get free attention, they also get to feel like the twitter mob is giving some some kind of power over the "bad guy"; feels good, I'm sure)
• A player doesn't like the GM and wants to troll him
• A player doesn't like the x-card and uses it repeatedly (but not too obviously) to derail the game/troll the others
• A player is bored and has nothing to do

Another example we recently had was a guy being triggered by virtual violence against wolves in combat since he loves dogs. The GM accomodated him, narrated them as spiders but used the wolf statline. If it works for everyone involved, that's great. However, and this is my crucial point, I will always stand up for the right of the GM to say: "No, I have planned it this way. These are the Starks you're fighting and not the white walkers. I'm sorry if you have a problem with it but the party is going to fight against wolves (or hungry dogs if it's against Ramsay Bolton) here."

It's alright to say 'No'. Not every unease needs to be comforted. You don't need to include everyone at every price. Role-playing can involve a conflict of interests. The x-card resolves such a conflict unquestionably in favor of anyone who taps the x. If I want to play this and you don't, I want to retain the right to play this nonetheless, knowing it might cause you to abandon the session.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1092545The #XCard is there for when you need an immediate, unanbiguous, non-verbal signal to stop. It's an additional communications channel, not a replacement for one, and given what we know now would have prevented this incident.

This is misrepresentation. This is no communication; it's an order. A command. To be obeyed without question. There's no back-and-forth if the x-card user doesn't want to talk about it. If a back-and-forth was allowed, you wouldn't need an x-card and could just talk about it to begin with. Like adults.

If you want smokers in your game or wolves, it's perfectly okay to have them. Of course, it's nice to accomodate players but, by all means, not every unease needs to be worked around without question.

Let me make it clear in the strongest possible terms: nobody has a right to make everybody else around them tip-toe on eggshells. If you're that kind of person I reserve the right to disinvite you from any game I run. And that's also why there won't be any x-card in any game I run.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1092545It's somewhat ironic how often I see people suffer because they aren't more of an asshole :)

True. But in this case it was a personal irk and my walking would have effected the whole gaming group. And overall it was one early incident and after that was really minor stuff. Had there been a second big incident I'd have blown up or just shut the game down on the spot. I do have my limits. As said. We overall had fun through the campaign other than that.

The other time I stuck through DMing a less than pleasant group was because one player was absolutely convinced I was running a module. So I stuck through with a smug feeling because I wasn't. And the other players told him so at the end. That was more a little annoyance rather than something offensive though. Not worth walking, totally worth staying.That and I have known a few other players who have this thing against modules.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1092545RPG horror stories (https://www.reddit.com/r/rpghorrorstories/) is full of GMs overstepping their bounds and players "just playing their characters".

To be fair, r/rpghorrorstories is full of made-up cringe tales designed to one-up previously posted cringe-tales.

Quote from: kythri;1092740To be fair, r/rpghorrorstories is full of made-up cringe tales designed to one-up previously posted cringe-tales.

You're not wrong. All those stories should come with a 'dramatic reenactment' disclaimer.

Thing is the same can be said of all the hypothetical misuses of the #XCard people keep presenting, and I've yet to see one real world example which supports these conclusions.

Perhaps, then, that's the issue with the X-Card.  It's existence has a chilling effect on gameplay?

Quote from: kythri;1092777Perhaps, then, that's the issue with the X-Card.  It's existence has a chilling effect on gameplay?

Feature, not bug.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1092776Thing is the same can be said of all the hypothetical misuses of the #XCard people keep presenting, and I've yet to see one real world example which supports these conclusions.

I've heard a supposed real-world story of a player being a jerk about the X-card. But even if that was true, it doesn't mean that it's the normal case -- any more than the various other RPG horror stories are the normal case.

I've played a bunch of games with the X-card, and it hasn't been an issue. I don't think it's necessary - but complaints that it automatically or regularly ruins games are false.

Quote from: RandyB;1092778Feature, not bug.

I agree that it was designed thusly.

Quote from: jhkim;1092790I've heard a supposed real-world story of a player being a jerk about the X-card.

You'll hear another one if any convention GM puts an X-card in front of me!

The new title of the game session will instantly become "Spinachcat fucks with morons."

I'll be triggered every five minutes, but too traumatized to explain anything, then demanding the GM to jump to my unknown phobias. I'll even change pronouns mid-game!

Watching the human garbage writhe about will be far more enjoyable than whatever the clown GM would have planned anyway.

Quote from: Gagarth;1091585Here is a good target for your x-card.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3499[/ATTACH]

The broad with the snakes in her hair?  Snakes... *shiver*

Jessica Price and her hate mob have whipped themselves into such a frenzy they are now comparing being detained by ICE to getting sent to a Nazi extermination camp.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1092440If you go to Twitter you will find that kind of stuff. The solution should be obvious: don't go to Twitter unless that's what you want to find.

Maybe because this about way more than people saying something annoying.  These people have been handed the power by companies, MSM and governments , to effect how we entertain ourselves and what ideas we are allowed to hear or read and from the way you constantly downplay this you are obviously more than happy with that.

Quote from: Gagarth;1092876Maybe because this about way more than people saying something annoying.  These people have been handed the power by companies, MSM and governments , to effect how we entertain ourselves and what ideas we are allowed to hear or read and from the way you constantly downplay this you are obviously more than happy with that.

Explain to me how this impacts how I'm allowed to entertain myself? Since we're on the RPG board, try to keep it related to RPGs. For the record, I own quite a bit, can play/run whatever the fuck I want at my private games (my home or the homes of my players) with the people I've selected to play with, and I've never had anyone get in the way of that. If I played in public places with strangers, I accept that I have to follow the rules of the venue. If I don't want to do that (and I don't), I don't play there.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1092879Explain to me how this impacts how I'm allowed to entertain myself? Since we're on the RPG board, try to keep it related to RPGs. For the record, I own quite a bit, can play/run whatever the fuck I want at my private games (my home or the homes of my players) with the people I've selected to play with, and I've never had anyone get in the way of that. If I played in public places with strangers, I accept that I have to follow the rules of the venue. If I don't want to do that (and I don't), I don't play there.

So everyone who does not conform to the outrage mobs the have to play in private homes? what happens if some woke fuck manages to get into your game  and you don't have the correct gender or poc  mix in you pc's and npc's and they doxx you on twitter.  

Also who do think are getting to dictate the standards at public venues?  If the outrages mobs ability to censor continues at the pace that it is currently at  how long before you have to submit scenarios to be vetted by an ideological pure committee  and if it does not meet the required  standards you will be public shamed and banned from every public rpg venue.

Here is  a good example of the start of this sort of thing from the Roll20 standards which used to restrict only certain people.

QuoteInclusivity

All Looking for Group postings and listings should be in the spirit of inclusion as opposed to exclusion. This will allow you to best attract the gaming group you wish to play with instead of attempting to repel those you don't.

Additionally, we ask that you refrain from creating a post seeking someone of a specific different background (such as creed, disability, gender, orientation, race, etc.)  than yourself. While we appreciate a desire for inclusion, such posts specifically targeting a group becomes an issue of tokenism-- looking to fill a spot with someone removed of their individuality save for that specific descriptor.

Any attempt to discourage others from playing through the use of bullying, discrimination, or harassment, is subject to the same moderation actions as outlined in the Discrimination and Harassment section of the Code of Conduct.

Yet the following LFG listing is perfectly acceptable given the lack of comment from moderators and the fact that a Roll20 employee has applied.

Quote[LFG/DM] Looking for LGBT+ women to form a group!

But posting to this thread about the Inclusivity clause would get you moderated.

Quote from: Gagarth;1092884So everyone who does not conform to the outrage mobs the have to play in private homes? what happens if some woke fuck manages to get into your game  and you don't have the correct gender or poc  mix in you pc's and npc's and they doxx you on twitter.  

Also who do think are getting to dictate the standards at public venues?  If the outrages mobs ability to censor continues at the pace that it is currently at  how long before you have to submit scenarios to be vetted by an ideological pure committee  and if it does not meet the required  standards you will be public shamed and banned from every public rpg venue.

Here is  a good example of the start of this sort of thing from the Roll20 standards which used to restrict only certain people.



Yet the following LFG listing is perfectly acceptable given the lack of comment from moderators and the fact that a Roll20 employee has applied.



But posting to this thread about the Inclusivity clause would get you moderated.

Nice barely intelligible rant.

I don't have to play in my home (or, occasionally, one of my players' homes), but I choose to. We could play elsewhere, but why?

As for your infiltrator/social media terrorist, it's alarmist bullshit. I'm fairly selective about who I allow into my home, and if somebody does something illegal, law enforcement can be called. If they just want to bitch on Twitter, whatever... I won't see it and don't care.

I also don't use Roll20, so that matters not at all to me.

I think I see the problem you have. Your gaming needs are at least somewhat dependent upon things out of your control that likely intersect with people that don't like you (for whatever reason). Maybe you should fix that.

Quote from: Gagarth;1092875Jessica Price and her hate mob have whipped themselves into such a frenzy they are now comparing being detained by ICE to getting sent to a Nazi extermination camp.

I find getting statements from actual victims of the Jewish holocaust helps with that.

Quote from: Gagarth;1092884Yet the following LFG listing is perfectly acceptable given the lack of comment from moderators and the fact that a Roll20 employee has applied.

#Roll20 has never been consistent or honest with their policies, and this isn't the first time I've seen exactly this sort of thing.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1092885I think I see the problem you have. Your gaming needs are at least somewhat dependent upon things out of your control that likely intersect with people that don't like you (for whatever reason). Maybe you should fix that.

Maybe should get out of your basement and see what is going on.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1092879Explain to me how this impacts how I'm allowed to entertain myself? Since we're on the RPG board, try to keep it related to RPGs. For the record, .

For the record everything I have posted is related to gaming in a public space maybe you should go read the title of thread again. I will give you a clue it is about gaming in a public space not about the handpicked troglodytes you have hand picked (or grown in vat)  to play in your basement.

Quote from: Gagarth;1093057Maybe should get out of your basement and see what is going on.

Quote from: Gagarth;1093060For the record everything I have posted is related to gaming in a public space maybe you should go read the title of thread again. I will give you a clue it is about gaming in a public space not about the handpicked troglodytes you have hand picked (or grown in vat)  to play in your basement.

Personal attacks. You're wasting your time, and you're wasting my time too. I'm just going to ignore you now.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1092885I think I see the problem you have. Your gaming needs are at least somewhat dependent upon things out of your control that likely intersect with people that don't like you (for whatever reason). Maybe you should fix that.

He is. At least to some extent here on the forums hashing it out. You seem to have no problems since you game far away from anybody, so why do you care?

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1093099He is. At least to some extent here on the forums hashing it out. You seem to have no problems since you game far away from anybody, so why do you care?

A few members of my groups also play in public places (game stores & cons). None of them have experienced any issues, but they are fairly well-adjusted people. If there were a true threat to their enjoyment, I'd care, but none of them have really expressed such concerns (and certainly not in the grossly exaggerated fashion that some think is needed).

There is a serious lack of empathy in this thread, only to be expected, I suppose.

• Dick GMed a game with seriously questionable content
• Player was upset by the content and complained
• Dick was banned from GMing at the convention for life

This turns into victim-blaming, calling the player an attention-whore and loads of stuff about GMs should be able to GM what they like no matter how it affects the Players.

Sad, really.

Quote from: soltakss;1093106There is a serious lack of empathy in this thread, only to be expected, I suppose.

• Dick GMed a game with seriously questionable content

Few have actually supported what the GM ran. Most think it was a bad idea. Some have said that it was listed as 18+, and that should have been enough disclaimer.

Quote

• Player was upset by the content and complained

On social media first, and not to the convention staff. Which, as noted, did result in some uninvolved gon-goers being targeted for harassment.
 

Quote

• Dick was banned from GMing at the convention for life

Some have questioned whether a lifetime ban was appropriate for a GM with no previous complaints and a spotless record.

QuoteThis turns into victim-blaming, calling the player an attention-whore and loads of stuff about GMs should be able to GM what they like no matter how it affects the Players.

Sad, really.

Empathy without wisdom is foolishness.

Quote from: soltakss;1093106There is a serious lack of empathy in this thread,

Empathy for what? Some clown who's fee fees got hurt? Some morons who showed up at a 18+ game about drunk idiots on spring break and then shat themselves when naughty stuff happened to their imaginary characters they'd been playing for a couple hours?

Fuck them.

Empathy is for people who actually suffer real shit.

Quote from: soltakss;1093106There is a serious lack of empathy in this thread, only to be expected, I suppose.

• Dick GMed a game with seriously questionable content
• Player was upset by the content and complained
• Dick was banned from GMing at the convention for life

This turns into victim-blaming, calling the player an attention-whore and loads of stuff about GMs should be able to GM what they like no matter how it affects the Players.

Sad, really.

You forget to mention the outrage mob that it fuelled. Sad, really. Also give me a break about victim blaming.  If someone can get so traumatised by an event in an RPG session they could be classed as a victim then they should not me out in public in the first place.  Is some tender soul who goes to see a Hostel movie thinking they where going to see Murder on the Orient Express a victim? You are shittting on real victims.

Quote from: Gagarth;1093167You are shittting on real victims.

Oh dear that may have triggered someone.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1093104A few members of my groups also play in public places (game stores & cons). None of them have experienced any issues, but they are fairly well-adjusted people. If there were a true threat to their enjoyment, I'd care, but none of them have really expressed such concerns (and certainly not in the grossly exaggerated fashion that some think is needed).

I think the concerns behind this are a bit akin to "First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a socialist."
From what I have seen over the last 5 years from the left, these concerns are exaggerated but not entirely without merit.

Quote from: soltakss;1093106This turns into victim-blaming

This here, this is the problem we're having. Your choice of words. Victim.
Also, the accusation of attention-whoring stems from the perception of somewhat mild discomfort/inconvenience being artificially inflated into suffering of a level that warrants the label "victim".

Note that I have no complaint about your calling what the GM did a dick move.

Quote from: soltakss;1093106There is a serious lack of empathy in this thread, only to be expected, I suppose.

• Dick GMed a game with seriously questionable content
• Player was upset by the content and complained
• Dick was banned from GMing at the convention for life

This turns into victim-blaming, calling the player an attention-whore and loads of stuff about GMs should be able to GM what they like no matter how it affects the Players.

Sad, really.

Nonsense...

The GM made a stupid mistake by using material that he should have not used at a con. It's hardly the end of the world...

A player was upset... That's regrettable. But how upset was she really, it's only a game at the end of the day - She or anyone could have left there immediately after the incident and complained but they chose not to, why sit through it ifit was so bad?

Lack of empathy? Kettle... Black... So, the GM gets banned for life (apparently) and is universally shunned for making a stupid but idiotic mistake? And is hounded on social media.

Now, I would have more sympathy for 'this whole jihad' if he'd have done this as a malicious act or went out of his way to deliberately hurt the player (or was trying to sleaze on her). But he didn't as far as I know.

I think the con did the right thing in asking him to leave, at least until the dust settled. Then they could have just given him a 'good talking too' and that would be the end of it... But if they have banned him for life I think it's out of order assuming he's apologized and said he won't do it again. I'd be interested in knowing if they even gave him a chance to speak about the incident or at least given a chance to apologize?

Quote from: Spinachcat;1093141Empathy is for people who actually suffer real shit.

Absolutely...