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Enworld, the Big Purple, and the rest of the mentally ill adolescents are trying to scalp SJ Games for their evil partnership with the wrong thinkers at Frog God Games.

Remember: never try to find common ground with the left. It's not possible. Ignore them. Don't engage. They are like children that will scream and kick on their beds but after 45 minutes or so they tire themselves out. Leftists hate markets because their nonsense fails at the market.

If SJ Games backs down because Phil Reed would rather be liked by the woke social media people he desperately wants to be friends with over his actual customers I'm done with that company.

And Phil, as a Gamer of Color, I don't want to see you bend the knee to these people that are not your customers!

What are Frog God Games supposed to have done?

Quote from: TJS;1083205What are Frog God Games supposed to have done?

harassment

Links?

Also, what is SJG doing with Frog God?

Let's not forget Frog God was the SJW darling just a few years ago doing an "all female" version of S&W. So even when you pander to them, you get nothing.

Quote from: Lurtch;1083207harassment

Of who?

(Why do I feel like this could take a while?)

Quote from: Spinachcat;1083208Links?

Yes, please.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1083208Also, what is SJG doing with Frog God?

The Fantasy Trip + The Lost Lands

Quote from: TJS;1083209Of who?

(Why do I feel like this could take a while?)

Google Bill Webb Paizocon.

If there's something more about FGG than that, someone can update this.

Well, SJGames has had SJWs working for them in the past. Probably still do. So I don't know what problem they would be having, other than a low simmer.

Quote from: TJS;1083209Of who?

(Why do I feel like this could take a while?)

It's an odd geek behavior to require a full explanation to be practically tortured from them line by line. The speed of online communication exacerbates this phenomena.

Details (https://www.froggodgames.com/library/?q=forum/response-frog-god-games-events-social-media)

Quote from: Mistwell;1083228Details (https://www.froggodgames.com/library/?q=forum/response-frog-god-games-events-social-media)

So has something new happened in the 18 months since that came out? IOW, why are we having this thread now?

Quote from: Lurtch;1083203Enworld, the Big Purple, and the rest of the mentally ill adolescents are trying to scalp SJ Games for their evil partnership with the wrong thinkers at Frog God Games.

I cant see anyone scalping anything.

Personally, I find the whole thing hilarious. FGG tried to get on the SJW bandwagon, it failed, now they are being hoisted by their own petard.

And Bill Webb is a jerk, even if his behavior wasn't actually criminal.


And personally, I don't understand what's in it for SJW. Wasn't there a world developed for The Fantasy Trip? I'm not an expert, but I could swear I have one product I picked up in a used book store for it. Something Darlok or other.   The Long Lands from FGG was originally developed for 3e, then 5e. How can it possibly fit The Fantasy Trip?

Game rules are like the laws of physics to a world. You can't just match them willy nilly. Even D&D flavors - when Mystara got converted to AD&D 2e, it took away everything unique about the world

Quote from: Shasarak;1083236I cant see anyone scalping anything.

I've looked over ENW and rpgnet and I can't see anything, either.

Quote from: JeremyR;1083237Personally, I find the whole thing hilarious. FGG tried to get on the SJW bandwagon, it failed, now they are being hoisted by their own petard.

I wasn't aware that Frog God Games had attempted to pander to SJWs sensibilities. Care to elaborate ?

Quote from: Lychee of the Exchequer;1083242I wasn't aware that Frog God Games had attempted to pander to SJWs sensibilities. Care to elaborate ?

If it is the same thing I think it is then they did an "all woman artist" version of one of their RPGs. If so then if I recall right it did not come across as very SJW, at least at first. They were not crowing it as these virtue signalling stunts tend to do.

Quote from: kythri;1083222The Fantasy Trip + The Lost Lands

What did Frog God have to do with those?  I was in the TFT kickstarter (...and am currently awaiting word that "I Want It All!" boxes have been shipped to international addresses...) and I don't recall having seen them mentioned in any of the project updates.

Quote from: Mistwell;1083228Details (https://www.froggodgames.com/library/?q=forum/response-frog-god-games-events-social-media)

Reading that, I really start feeling like I missed my calling as a professional Editor....

And since people are complaining about getting information line by line in this very thread, I'll indulge my inner loggorhea (I didn't say I could spell...) and explain what I mean with quote:

Quote from: Frog God GamesAn incident took place at PaizoCon 2017, and we address that here. Matt Finch is the partner at Frog God Games who conducted our internal investigation.

I am Matt Finch, the partner of Frog God Games appointed by the partners to investigate a sexual harassment complaint filed against Mr. Webb at Paizo Con 2017.

Aside from the constant shifting between first and third person, and singular and plural self reference throughout the text, here we have Mr Finch explaining in back to back sentances (with those same issues) who he is.  

Also the Imgur link is broken, so I can't read the actual complaint referenced, thus the somewhat elliptical talking around the content of the complaint makes the entire read almost (but not quite) a pointless waste of time, and inadvertantly makes the entire thing about three times longer than it needs to be.  Mr Finch seems to suggest he is a lawyer, but he does it 'late' and, as I said, he suggests, or rather implies, he is a lawyer rather than simply stating it.   The shifting voices and pronouns, the use of the passive voice and the roundabout makes the entire post read like he's being shifty and hiding something (the actual meaning of his text does not appear to do this, to be clear.  Its merely that he is being plain-spoken in a way that seems deceptive, which obviously is counter-productive).

What he should have done is written his introduction like so:

Quote from: Me as Mr FinchI am Matt Finch, the Partner of Frog God Games, who conducted the Internal Investigation of the incident that occurred at Piazocon 2017 involving Bill Webb.  I became involved the day of the incident when I received a call from Piazo regarding the incident, and have spoken to Piazo, Mr. Webb and the person making the Complaint...

He should then cover his exact role regarding lawyering, as I am unsure if he is FFG's lawyer, or happens to be a lawyer but does not represent FFG in that capacity (Fool for a client and all that), or just was worried that he'd come across like a lawyer if he made official sounding phone calls.  Also, he should quote the complaint directly, rather than rely on a third party hosted image with 'redactions', especially if he is in fact worried about confidentiality... as pulled quotes by definition only contain the infomation you choose to include, while the image file may contain any number of clues (metadate included) that might reveal to determined investigators something, if only because you might fail to redact an important detail!  Also, you don't have to worry about context being stripped from the post by the link breaking.

There. Now no one can complain that they had to pull the details from me, line by line.  :P

Quote from: nDervish;1083244What did Frog God have to do with those?  I was in the TFT kickstarter (...and am currently awaiting word that "I Want It All!" boxes have been shipped to international addresses...) and I don't recall having seen them mentioned in any of the project updates.

There was an announcement on FGG Facebook page that they are doing a partnership with SJG, where there will be TFT adventures in The Lost Lands, the campaign setting where FGG adventures and sourcebooks take place.  It's on their Facebook page, and Tenkar's Tavern had a blurb about it.

I too see no evidence of anybody complaining about this either on ENWorld or RPG.NET.  There are a few notes on the Kickstarter Update for one of the SJW projects.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/warehouse23/the-fantasy-trip-adventures/posts/2466736

Based on SJ's response, it doesn't look like he is going to give in.

The thing is, Frog God has had successful Kickstarters since the quoted incident, so it doesn't appear to be affecting their bottom line at all--while some may be concerned about this, I don't believe that the folks threatening to boycott the company are affecting the bottom line.  

And it also looks like conventions are asking Bill Webb not to attend or be a special guest, so this should be what people want.  Bill is focusing on writing and running his company, and appears to be staying away from situations which could cause anybody to feel uncomfortable.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1083232So has something new happened in the 18 months since that came out? IOW, why are we having this thread now?

Because it's blowing up on the Fantasy Trip KS page by Christopher Helton and Ettin.

SJW - Social Justice Warrior or Steve Jackson World?

Everything just got a little more confusing.

Quote from: Lurtch;1083250Because it's blowing up on the Fantasy Trip KS page by Christopher Helton and Ettin.

So provide a fucking link, already.

The most I've seen is Christopher Helton and Stacy Dellorfano screaming into the wind on their twitter accounts.
https://mobile.twitter.com/dorkland
https://mobile.twitter.com/StacyRex

I'd guess that after not gaining backing to Contessa from GaryCon they've moved their aim on to Steve Jackson. They don't seem to go after anyone too big, like Paizo (who had responsibility for the con where the original Bill Webb incident occurred), probably because they figure the smaller players in the hobby are more likely to roll over and provide some tribute to Contessa as penance.

I've not seen any real pushback on Steve Jackson and Frog God in this latest matter aside from those two. They're probably just begging for somebody to attack them in such a manner that crosses some politically correct lines so that they can use their victimhood to amplify their message.

The real lesson from this is to recognize the scorpions and never give them a ride on your back across the stream. The scorpion will sting you every time.

As far as I remember SJG were really early in voicing their support for gay rights.  I recall the Pyramid article.  Back when Pyramid was a really good general purpose printed magazine.  But yeah, I wouldn't expect them to knuckle under or get bullied and scared by this.

Quote from: David Johansen;1083262As far as I remember SJG were really early in voicing their support for gay rights.  I recall the Pyramid article.  Back when Pyramid was a really good general purpose printed magazine.  But yeah, I wouldn't expect them to knuckle under or get bullied and scared by this.

Hard to say. This isn't like the CIA digging through their hard drives or In Nomine being scancalous-lite towards Christians. This is intersectional social justice wielding victimhood as a lever to gain power.
I can see them folding in the face of being called alt-right Nazi shitlords.

SJ Games is not backing down.

Quote from: Steve Jackson GamesI have read in its entirety the 2017 EN thread that Chris pointed to, and I do understand that a number of posters there are incensed at Bill Webb. To me, that does not justify SJ Games boycotting a whole company. Some very good things are coming out of our work with Frog God – three different projects are underway, and I don't expect them to be the last. If that makes you wish you had not supported our Adventures campaign, we'll work with you to refund your pledge, minus the fees already charged by Kickstarter, Stripe, and BackerKit.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/warehouse23/the-fantasy-trip-adventures/posts/2466736

Quote from: wmarshal;1083258The most I've seen is Christopher Helton and Stacy Dellorfano screaming into the wind on their twitter accounts.

If I had to choose between having Frog God games as an RPG partner or having Christopher Helton and Stacy Dellorfano as an RPG partner then I would pick Frog God and just make sure I kept Bill away from the drink at the launch celebration.

Quote from: Lurtch;1083203Enworld, the Big Purple, and the rest of the mentally ill adolescents are trying to scalp SJ Games for their evil partnership with the wrong thinkers at Frog God Games.

Remember: never try to find common ground with the left. It's not possible. Ignore them. Don't engage. They are like children that will scream and kick on their beds but after 45 minutes or so they tire themselves out. Leftists hate markets because their nonsense fails at the market.

If SJ Games backs down because Phil Reed would rather be liked by the woke social media people he desperately wants to be friends with over his actual customers I'm done with that company.

And Phil, as a Gamer of Color, I don't want to see you bend the knee to these people that are not your customers!

I can easily imagine Steve Jackson in his tuxedo glory laughing at them saying, "You fools! I have faced down the Secret Service! You think that you can threaten ME!?!"

Quote from: Shasarak;1083272If I had to choose between having Frog God games as an RPG partner or having Christopher Helton and Stacy Dellorfano as an RPG partner then I would pick Frog God and just make sure I kept Bill away from the drink at the launch celebration.

In a relatively short period of time Stacy has launched diatribes against:

• Evil Hat Games
• Frog God Games
• Tenkar’s Tavern
• Lamentations of the Flame Princess
• The Diana Jones Award
• Gary Con
• Bundle of Holding
• Steve Jackson Games
• Total Con

Have I missed any? I suspect the larger gaming community is concluding it's better to stay away from the zealotry she leads at Contessa. The zealots will always find fault with anyone they cast their eye upon, because the zealot can never find anyone perfect. Sooner or later she'll find a fault, and due to any past association with with the fallen she'll try to launch a crusade to make up for the past association with the now "unclean" offender. Better to keep Contessa at a distance.

Quote from: Aglondir;1083270SJ Games is not backing down.



https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/warehouse23/the-fantasy-trip-adventures/posts/2466736

Good for them! :)

Christopher Helton's tweets seem to go after any company that has males.

Quote from: wmarshal;1083279I suspect that, after Stacy has launched diatribes against Evil Hat, Frog God Games, Lamentations of the Flame Princess, Diana Jones Award, GaryCon, Bundle of Holding and Steve Jackson Games (have I missed any?) within a relatively short period of time, the larger gaming community is concluding it's better to stay away from the zealotry she leads at Contessa. The zealots will always find fault with anyone they cast their eye upon, because the zealot can never find anyone perfect. Sooner or later she'll find a fault, and due to any past association with with the fallen she'll try to launch a crusade to make up for the past association with the now "unclean" offender. Better to keep Contessa at a distance.

Yeah, sooner or later it is hard not to recognise the pattern. "You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time." Some of the people seem to be wising up.

Good to see Steve Jackson not giving in to blackmailers.

(https://66.media.tumblr.com/34246b75c22d15de82a6c803ead621be/tumblr_ppzrj2RgkE1xcdgeso1_250.jpg)
[edit]I will have to be That Guy and point out that 99% of adult males using cutesy pink avatars are mental cases. As a warning sign, it is a more accurate indicator than danger hair.

Quote from: wmarshal;1083258The scorpion will sting you every time.

And that's why you beat it to death with a boot.

Or deep fry it and make it a crunchy snack.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1083289Christopher Helton's tweets seem to go after any company that has males.

Greetings!

You know, if I recall correctly, Christopher Helton was some editorial writer for EN World. Who the fuck over there thought it was a good idea to have Chris Helton as a regular, official contributor?

I remember reading one of his articles over there about Webb, sexual harassment, blah blah blah. It totally threw me off of returning to post at EN World, honestly. It convinced me that EN World had become a fucking SJW nuthouse. It made me feel like I would be *unwelcome*, seeing that my world-view is very traditional and conservative.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I stayed away from ENW for a couple years. Recently Helton left so I went back. They mostly talk about RPGs again now. Just don't poke the hyenas and it's mostly ok.

Quote from: S'mon;1083311I stayed away from ENW for a couple years. Recently Helton left so I went back. They mostly talk about RPGs again now. Just don't poke the hyenas and it's mostly ok.

Uh huh   o_O

Quote from: S'mon;1083311I stayed away from ENW for a couple years. Recently Helton left so I went back. They mostly talk about RPGs again now. Just don't poke the hyenas and it's mostly ok.

Essentially saying that as long as one walks on eggshells we should be fine at Enworld is not exactly a positive endorsement for the site. Anytime one person or more gives me the above warning is a huge warning to stay the fuck away from the site.

Quote from: S'mon;1083311I stayed away from ENW for a couple years. Recently Helton left so I went back. They mostly talk about RPGs again now. Just don't poke the hyenas and it's mostly ok.

As I haven't been there before, what are the hyenas likely to consider poking?

Quote from: Spinachcat;1083302And that's why you beat it to death with a boot.

Or deep fry it and make it a crunchy snack.

While certainly wise with real scorpions I think you have to take care in doing the same with SJW scorpions. Unless it's 100% clear to a broad segment of the public that the SJW is being an ass, bringing the hammer down somehow on someone like Stacy can be twisted into an attack that causes some to feel sympathy towards her. Defend yourself, of course, from the attacks, but at least part of her is probably begging for someone to go overboard on Twitter and call her names, confront her at a con or otherwise oppress her. At this point it may be a decent analogy to liken Stacy and Chris to being a scorpion trapped in a glass jar with no air holes in the lid. Admittedly, that may also not be a great analogy, but I don't see any means at hand to really finish Stacy and Chris off other than the gaming community learning to ignore them aside from defending yourself from whatever accusations they make.

I just realized I left of Tenkar's Tavern from the list she's gone after. He's part of Frog God now, but she went after him before he joined the Frog Gods. I'll have to update the list.

Quote from: sureshot;1083318Essentially saying that as long as one walks on eggshells we should be fine at Enworld is not exactly a positive endorsement for the site. Anytime one person or more gives me the above warning is a huge warning to stay the fuck away from the site.

I don't post at ENWorld, but I don't think it's a bad idea to give a forum another try if it seems there has been a meaningful change to how the forum is ran, or a change in the community itself.

I also avoided Enworld while Helton's trollish editorials were a regular feature. Nice to know I wasn't the only one. I never really posted there and haven't started, but I am now reading there again.

ENworld turned to shit when Morrus took over.

Quote from: sureshot;1083318Essentially saying that as long as one walks on eggshells we should be fine at Enworld is not exactly a positive endorsement for the site. Anytime one person or more gives me the above warning is a huge warning to stay the fuck away from the site.

Yes, This. I remember a time when going on the Intenet and visiting gaming websites meant getting only slightly biased articles. That was back in the time their were actual editors at most gaming websites,. Editors that would review articles prior to publication to ensure the commentary and reporting was true, fair, or at least open and allowing counter-articles or opposing commentary, providing the commenters could remain civil and meet the same standards the website had, in their response.  

Those days are long gone with most media (including media in gaming circles) owned by just a few players with deep pockets, players who don't care about truth, or justice, or accuracy, or civility. These players unceasingly promote their unique agenda and block sharing any of their space with other folks that might not 100% agree with them. They want you to participate if they can control the entire narrative.

I just don't participate in these websites any more. some of the more prominent ones in gaming circles include EnWorld, RPG.net, Dragonsfoot, the WOTC forums in their continuous polymorphing manner where they try to reinvent themselves every few years only to be overrun by the storygamers and the sjws, and the 0D&D 74 Proboards (Whom have actually banned me, because I like talking about Early Judges Guild and RPGs and my actual experiences in running and playing these games don't line up with what they wanted my experiences to be). I'm not going to say what they want, I'm going to continue to speak of actually what happened, and what occurred, and who was involved in the early days of RPG gaming. Dave Arneson himself, in our meeting requested that I continue to do what I do, even after he is gone, to ensure that people would remember him and his significant contributions to RPG gaming and especially the development and release of D&D. While we had some significant differences of opinion about the release of AD&D beginning in 1978 and through about 1982 or so, me and Gary made our peace in the summer of 2006, and generally he was glad I was still a fan of D&D and no longer cared which version I preferred to play. The same cannot be said of these websites I have mentioned earlier. Here is a list of the offenses they have committed against me over the years.

EnWorld - Censorship of discussion content, public reprimands from the mods of my responses in posts (attempted humiliation), removal of posts deemed "inflammatory" (Wasn't what they wanted to hear... too bad, and shame on them.)

RPG.Net - Censorship of discussion content, removal and deletion of posts and entire threads (Not only things they did want to discuss in open forums, but just my style of discussion (anti-old-school). RPG.net is still owned by SKOTOS which was a small group of storygamers that decided more than two decades ago that they would and could control the entire narrative and development of new RPGs. I don't believe Skotos or RPG.net is inherently profitable, so someone is still pouring money into controlling the develop of gaming on their websites. They are also guilty of promoting the skewed interests and proclivities of the unjust and inflammatory sjw crowd that makes up their userbase there now. I'm just not interested in participating there on account of all of this.

Dragonsfoot - In recent years, they have dissed hard on the original group of creators that were a part of TSR, and don't even discuss 0D&D anymore, just 1e AD&D and later editions. I remember a time when anyone who wanted to talk about any later editions of D&D after 1eAD&D were unceremoniously shamed, dumped ,and excluded from participating. Now as they embrace the you are bad because you play the "badwrongfun" version of our favorite game,and they have jumped on the "You are evivvuuul" sjw train persecuting the very people who gave them a reason to have their forum in the first place. ...Shame on you, you European twits  for thinking that you can be the exclusive owners of 0D&D and 1eAD&D content. Guilty of censorshoip, bullying, and threatening behavior, removing 0D&D content and contributions, as well as being extremely disrespectful to all of the original TSR staff who helped them get their bulletin board going. They basically isolated the forums of the original TSR folks that were contributing, and moved them forums out of the main conversation channels. There are a lot of younger folks that are OSR fans there now, that believe they can make a better game (I don't hold that against them), They want to be Rock Stars (They haven't done anything original), andt they are removing, concealing, and hiding important original content there regarding several of the early editions of the game as well as the early history of TSR and other gaming companies. Shame on them!

WOTC -  Guilty of censorship of discussion content, removal and deletion of posts and entire threads (Not only things they did want to discuss in open forums, but just my style of discussion (they are vehemently anti-old-school, and only wish to discuss the current version of D&D whatever that is...). Guilty of removing historically valuable D&D content contributed by early edition fan multiple times over the years. The users there with the full support of the mods are guilty of making completely false accusations and attributions, WOTC users, with the support of the board mods there are guilty of intimidation, veiled threats, cyberbulling, gaslighting, and we are just talking about what they did to me there. They also really screwed over their entire d20/3e outside development folks when they stupidly attempted to close the open gaming license, they had released and developed by discontinuing their support of the d20 license website, and the OGL website, with the release of 4e back in 2006-2007. They also screwed up royally with the discontinuation of the print version of Dragon Magazine in 2007. This cost Lisa Stevens and Paizo (Who at one time were WOTC employees) over a million dollars, as they had to retool and refocus thier entire gaming business when they no longer had a magazine to publish because WOTC/HASBRO first made them subcontractors, and then they shut them down. Look at how much Paizo have earned over the last decade! Good on them for their hard work and dedication! Shame on WOTC though. Talking directly to the 5e Devs and game developers these days, they are mostly friendly, although some of the younger devs appear entitled, and seem to be a bit vain. What they say and what WOTC does is often two different things, so... they remain two-faced, I don't blame the RPG crew working on new D&D games for this, but do blame the executive management.

0D&D 74 ProBoards. I don't even know what's up with my ban over there. This is a board devoted to Original D&D. I had several hundred posts over there, many discussing the early days of Judges Guild, and TSR. Back in September of last year, I was contacted by a Mod there that I didn't know, who told me without mincing words to abruptly break off contact with some of the other posters there I had been interacting with because these other posters were a single  "sock puppets" who was ostensibly intent on taking over the Proboards and redirecting the 0D&D discussions. They did provide reliable proof that they were having a problem with sock puppets, but this person had done nothing to me personally, so I ignored the request, and subsequently found myself locked out of my account there. I went over to Dragonsfoot and PM'ed Finarvyn, a mod both there and on ProBoards, whom I have met once in real life by the way, and requested a reinstatement, and have not heard back from him.

Ruins of Murkhill Also a 0D&D board. I'm not actually banned from posting there, however they are guilty of removing my access to certain content, notably several threads concerning the early development of 0D&D, as well as the early years of Judges Guild. Interestingly enough this board was founded by the alleged 0D&D 74 Proboards "sock puppet", and while they haven't removed the content that I provided at Murkhill, they have blocked my access to some of the discussion threads, and remain free to comment on my contributions, and lie about it, without being challenged, Guilty of partial censorship. So I stopped participating there as well over the last few months.

I'm just getting to be at that age and disposition now, where I don't particularly care if that is all they are interested in doing, however  I'm no longer going to be contributing gaming articles and commentary on these web sites, and fora, becuase they are choosing not to recognize my rights to free speech, the right to discuss what I want to about games and gaming. I expect some of these sites are bending to the will and pressure of their SJW constituency. Last year, I set up my own gaming website again, and if they dare to attempt to censor me there, they'll find themselves on the wrong end of a very uncivil civil lawsuit.

Quote from: Dimitrios;1083329I also avoided Enworld while Helton's trollish editorials were a regular feature. Nice to know I wasn't the only one. I never really posted there and haven't started, but I am now reading there again.

Same here. I started enjoying the site a lot more when he finally disappeared.

Either way, this whole issue is insanely fucked up....the desire to punish everyone through "guilt by association" that these guys are engaging in is the worst form of social-control authoritarianism you can get.

Quote from: CarlD.;1083319As I haven't been there before, what are the hyenas likely to consider poking?

Well if you have to ask... To give you some idea, our BedrockBrendan is regarded as an extreme right winger and possible racist/sexist/fascist over there... So you guys might want to stay away. :D

Quote from: GameDaddy;1083339Dragonsfoot - In recent years, they have dissed hard on the original group of creators that were a part of TSR, and don't even discuss 0D&D anymore, just 1e AD&D and later editions. I remember a time when anyone who wanted to talk about any later editions of D&D after 1eAD&D were unceremoniously shamed, dumped ,and excluded from participating. Now as they embrace the you are bad because you play the "badwrongfun" version of our favorite game,and they have jumped on the "You are evivvuuul" sjw train persecuting the very people who gave them a reason to have their forum in the first place. ...Shame on you, you European twits for thinking that you can be the exclusive owners of 0D&D and 1eAD&D content. Guilty of censorshoip, bullying, and threatening behavior, removing 0D&D content and contributions, as well as being extremely disrespectful to all of the original TSR staff who helped them get their bulletin board going. They basically isolated the forums of the original TSR folks that were contributing, and moved them forums out of the main conversation channels. There are a lot of younger folks that are OSR fans there now, that believe they can make a better game (I don't hold that against them), They want to be Rock Stars (They haven't done anything original), andt they are removing, concealing, and hiding important original content there regarding several of the early editions of the game as well as the early history of TSR and other gaming companies. Shame on them!

For any lurkers, I'd like to point out that anyone can go to DF, look around, and see the above is entirely fantasy.  I'm not going to debate someone else's fantasy with them, only ask that if you as a lurker might be inclined to accept it, to instead confirm it.

Why Gamedaddy would be having problems with so many different places I can't hope to guess, but I'd point out he's having problems at many disparate places and presuming they all have the issues.

When one person has problems everywhere they go, it's a reasonable presumption they are the problem. Without in any way implying that rpgnet are in any way good or right of course. :D

Quote from: EOTB;1083357For any lurkers, I'd like to point out that anyone can go to DF, look around, and see the above is entirely fantasy.  I'm not going to debate someone else's fantasy with them, only ask that if you as a lurker might be inclined to accept it, to instead confirm it.

Why Gamedaddy would be having problems with so many different places I can't hope to guess, but I'd point out he's having problems at many disparate places and presuming they all have the issues.

Gamedaddy has a big lawn, well watered, and no dogs or children allowed.

Dragonsfoot is actually just fine, and while not too exciting, if you stop in every now and then there's always interesting stuff being posted, and more actual "game useable" content than just about anywhere else.

Quote from: CarlD.;1083319As I haven't been there before, what are the hyenas likely to consider poking?

Maybe this:

Quote from: ENWorld rulesYou MAY NOT use the terms "agenda", "ideology", "politics", or "propaganda" in relation to the inclusion of people slightly different to you in gaming products or other media, use pejorative terms such as "social justice warrior" or "virtue signalling" to dismiss the opinions of those you disagree with...

Quote from: Aglondir;1083371Maybe this:

The term Social Justice Warrior is not perjurative, however some do consider it derogatory as it does describe a radical activist that provides no actual facts or proof of any actual wrongdoing, however implies that someone else is morally inferior to them, or committing a crime just because the SJW guest "Feels" that a crime is being committed, or some wrong is being perpetrated against them. Such ridiculous behavior in public forums needs to be called out, because SJW activists revel in making other people miserable or unhappy, damage other peoples reputations spewing their vague allegations, slandererous and veiled threats, and they do not provide any due process or provide no real cause or reason to demonstrate such behavior, and should be identified and tracked as the poison that they are to our hobby.

Quote from: S'mon;1083359When one person has problems everywhere they go, it's a reasonable presumption they are the problem. Without in any way implying that rpgnet are in any way good or right of course. :D

In this case this is not a reasonable presumption, Because I don't have problems every where I go, just in those places that I mentioned in this thread, nor is it important over the long term as I'm perfectly happy not participating in gaming discussions on those websites, although I'll admit that I will miss the both the friendship and cameraderie of some of the less radical gamers on those websites, the ones that just care to sit at the gaming table with me, or participate in civil discussions in a gaming forums, and have a good time roleplaying. For folks like that, my non-participation is a loss, and I keenly feel the loss of their good company.

Quote from: EOTB;1083357For any lurkers, I'd like to point out that anyone can go to DF, look around, and see the above is entirely fantasy.  I'm not going to debate someone else's fantasy with them, only ask that if you as a lurker might be inclined to accept it, to instead confirm it.

Indeed. Go and see what they have done, and the disrespect they have shown to the old TSR crew over there, and if you find no evidence, get back to me here, and I'll post screenshots of their malice, and start naming names of who there participated with hostility in the purges of the original TSR game designers, and which of the mods there supported said purges by silencing the protests of the accused and denying them their rightful due to present evidence supporting their innocence.

Put em up.  In the amount of time it took you to type that you could have shown the whole world.

Quote from: CarlD.;1083319As I haven't been there before, what are the hyenas likely to consider poking?

For one thing, guys that are into wearing mens clothing is a no-no.

Quote from: Melan;1083300(https://66.media.tumblr.com/34246b75c22d15de82a6c803ead621be/tumblr_ppzrj2RgkE1xcdgeso1_250.jpg)
[edit]I will have to be That Guy and point out that 99% of adult males using cutesy pink avatars are mental cases. As a warning sign, it is a more accurate indicator than danger hair.

Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is danger hair?

Quote from: S'mon;1083350Well if you have to ask... To give you some idea, our BedrockBrendan is regarded as an extreme right winger and possible racist/sexist/fascist over there... So you guys might want to stay away. :D

Wait. WUT?!

Quote from: EOTB;1083357For any lurkers, I'd like to point out that anyone can go to DF, look around, and see the above is entirely fantasy.  I'm not going to debate someone else's fantasy with them, only ask that if you as a lurker might be inclined to accept it, to instead confirm it.

Actually. I have poked around Dragonsfoot before this thread and have seen some things that seemed a little... off. An attitude shift? There has been one or two other posters here who have noted something off as well over there before I believe? So there may well be something wrong?

If there is, I'm there so much that I can't tell the difference.  It wouldn't surprise me if DF's culture hasn't changed more than once in the 20 years its been around, though.

Some of the Dragonsfoot posters can be obnoxious (EOTB here can certainly be abrasive) but IME the moderation has always been impeccable. Some don't like that it is so even handed I guess - ancient luminaries don't receive much special treatment and annoying jerkwads benefit from the procedural fairness rather than being arbitrarily stomped on. So one could say it is *too* fair - but I prefer that to the alternative.

Quote from: 3rik;1083407Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is danger hair?

Wait. WUT?!

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?657679-Do-orcs-in-gaming-display-parallels-to-colonialist-propaganda

You'll have to wade through a lot.

I have to say that after reading dozens of pages of them calling Brendan a racist, all the anger I'd had towards him for prior bust ups dissipated, and in the words of Martin Luther King we sat down together at the table of brotherly love. So some good did come of it. :)

Danger hair - dyed hair, pink green or blue. A common sign of mental illness and SJW tendencies, especially when scraggly and ill maintained, or dyed beard and lipstick on men (the "Kobel"). On women tends to be a sign of the mentally ill Tru Believer cultist  rather than the cynical cult leader Thulsa Doom/Anita Sarkeesian type.

Quote from: EOTB;1083413If there is, I'm there so much that I can't tell the difference.  It wouldn't surprise me if DF's culture hasn't changed more than once in the 20 years its been around, though.

Same with BGG. Lot of people never seen the bad behavior over there. Others are so very much less fortunate and Im one of them. Probably like me and RPG.net. I've only seen like two instances of the crazy that the place is. But whoooeeee have others been the diametric opposite.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1083376The term Social Justice Warrior is not perjurative, however some do consider it derogatory as it does describe a radical activist that provides no actual facts or proof of any actual wrongdoing, however implies that someone else is morally inferior to them, or committing a crime just because the SJW guest "Feels" that a crime is being committed, or some wrong is being perpetrated against them. Such ridiculous behavior in public forums needs to be called out, because SJW activists revel in making other people miserable or unhappy, damage other peoples reputations spewing their vague allegations, slandererous and veiled threats, and they do not provide any due process or provide no real cause or reason to demonstrate such behavior, and should be identified and tracked as the poison that they are to our hobby.

You sound like a "Conservative Justice Warrior" or Russian Troll or whatever they call SJWs on the other side of the political fence.

Here's an axiom, "If I'm advocating hunting people down to expell them to make a more and more pure group, then maybe I'm an ass".

There is a large difference between calling people dumb idiots and "finding the poison".

We're all Russian bots funded by Putin to Dehumanise his enemies by calling them NPCs.

Quote from: EOTB;1083400Put em up.  In the amount of time it took you to type that you could have shown the whole world.

Fine, we'll start with you first...

Here is a screenshot of a post over on DF showing what you actually think of the original TSR folks...

https://imgur.com/4HN14Y3 (https://imgur.com/4HN14Y3)


Then a few posts later. you off pontificating about Sherlock Holmes of all things... Not D&D, not old school gaming, nothing really about RPGs, Nothing I would want to visit your message board for, to be sure.

https://imgur.com/2sgphq5 (https://imgur.com/2sgphq5)

Here, lets take a quick look at DF back in 2004, shall we? We'll use this to compare with how Dragonsfoot looks today, this is important because there have been some subtle changes over the years, and those changes have taken the focus away from original D&D and 1eAD&D, and on to other things. These changes have taken the focus away from many of the original contributors especially and including the Alumni of TSR, all justified, the mods there say. I respectfully disagree here and now, and I'll provide some specific reasons why, shortly...

Dragonsfoot as it looked in August 2004

https://imgur.com/igfQlrq (https://imgur.com/igfQlrq)

Notice here that there is a General Discussion area, a classified, and then, right at the the top 1eAD&D, 2e AD&D, Classic D&D, and also Gary's Greyhawk, there is also a space for players (board guests) to place their campaign journals... This is all of the original D&D and early years of TSR.

Here is another screenshot from January of 2005 of the General Discussion area...

(https://imgur.com/6sVK0i3) (https://imgur.com/6sVK0i3)

Notice here, the stickied threads right at the top of the General Discussion area, these threads highlight the original TSR crew that were kind enough to share their early gaming and RPG experiences. This was a big draw for old school gamers, and an endorsement of Dragonsfoot.

Here in 2015 the TSR Q&A Threads were moved away from the General Discussion area and "Isolated" into their own thread separate. I really wish I could find some of the ongoing posts from discussions from that time, because there were some heated confrontations behind all of this, and behind this decision.

(https://imgur.com/xKGn2ye) (https://imgur.com/xKGn2ye)

Now here is a screenshot from January of 2016, notice that you don't see any of the threads leading to the original 1e, 2e & classic D&D posts from TSR anymore. Out of sight, out of mind, eh? As I alleged earlier, and now proven... DRAGONSFOOT - GUILTY OF REMOVING OR CONCEALING ORIGINAL D&D AND TSR POSTS & THREADS provided by many original fans of the game...

(https://imgur.com/VWXSflR) (https://imgur.com/VWXSflR)

Here is Dragonsfoot as it appears right now, in 2019...

(https://imgur.com/ol0x98b) (https://imgur.com/ol0x98b)

You can see the 1eAD&D thread, and the classic D&D threads, way down on the list... The psychological implications of this placement indicate that original D&D and AD&D are no longer viewed by the mods there as important. This is ironic considering that the original draw to this site was because of TSR's original D&D and AD&D. This is also what drew the TSR alumni to the site, who were happy to share, but many of them, even before Frank was banned, stopped sharing there, I wonder if anyone there cared to ask why?... The TSR Alumni threads were then separated from the rest of the threads, and what is implied with this, in unspoken terms, is that they should not be considered as RPG Gamers on par with the rest of the gamers that are a part of Dragonsfoot.

This is why I stopped visiting, and contributing at Dragonsfoot.

I believe this also sent a message, a message that may have been perhaps unintended, to those Woke Morons that make up the SJW, and that message is, that it's ok to diss on the crew that made up the original RPGs, because they are Evvvuulll and not worthy of respect. Congratulations, the SJW have certainly endorsed your message, and appear quite unwilling to put away their torches and pitchforks.

QuoteYou MAY NOT use the terms "agenda", "ideology", "politics", or "propaganda" in relation to the inclusion of people slightly different to you in gaming products or other media, use pejorative terms such as "social justice warrior" or "virtue signalling" to dismiss the opinions of those you disagree with...

Jonathan Haidt has it exactly right: These people have come to regard whole realms of discourse as essentially sacred. Like the devoutly religious, they're motivated by Truths that cannot be challenged. I think a lot of them don't even understand the ideological and academic underpinnings of their beliefs. They just subscribe to a whole host of assumptions because it's what good people in their sub culture do. And they can't imagine that anyone who challenges those assumptions has any motivation except malice. Skepticism, reason, nuance, and empiricism are not welcome.

As I remarked in the BGG thread, the problem isn't that a bunch of zealots are going through a moral panic. The problem is that a much larger group of people - site owners, mods, publishers, and gamers - have gone along with this moral panic out of misplaced loyalty. Or cowardice of being the next target of the zealots. I doubt more than 25 per cent of the people who post on ENWorld agree with those terms. But they go along with them anyway. Sad.

Hey Gamedaddy the first few attachments are coming across as link invalid.

Gamedaddy, none of your attachment links seem to work.

Looks like a technical issue with the vBulletin Board here. I have relinked all of the screenshots to images I have stored over on Imgur, so that if you click on them now, you'll see them clearly.

Well, TBP has picked it up. With the same result thus far that you would expect.

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/sjg-offering-partial-refunds-and-continuing-to-work-with-bill-webb.844606/

Quote from: Antiquation!;1083439Well, TBP has picked it up. With the same result thus far that you would expect.

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/sjg-offering-partial-refunds-and-continuing-to-work-with-bill-webb.844606/

Well at least I can say this issue is real now.

Not sure what the overlap between TBP story game enthusiast and GURPS players is but something tells me this won't affect SJG's bottom line.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1083438Looks like a technical issue with the vBulletin Board here. I have relinked all of the screenshots to images I have stored over on Imgur, so that if you click on them now, you'll see them clearly.

It's because you are using web pages as images. You need to use IMG tags with actual images.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1083439Well, TBP has picked it up. With the same result thus far that you would expect.

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/sjg-offering-partial-refunds-and-continuing-to-work-with-bill-webb.844606/

Color me shocked and surprised. Pretty soon some of them angry at SJgames will have no rpgs left on their shelves beyond one huge banner side to side in day glow orange written FULLY WOKE. Hopefully they don't cave to the mentally ill mob and goid on them for standing up so far to the SJWs.

Quote from: Haffrung;1083434Jonathan Haidt has it exactly right: These people have come to regard whole realms of discourse as essentially sacred. Like the devoutly religious, they're motivated by Truths that cannot be challenged.

And if you challenge their beliefs, you're branded an heretic. That is : a bad and morally failing person. You're not an ideological opponent as much as an unbeliever. This is very much a Christian perspective. That is, a retrograde and vitiated Chistian perspective. I've got nothing against Christianity: I just want to point out that, in my opinion, these people are the bastard children of Judeo-Christian culture and Marxist theories.

Quote from: HaffrungI think a lot of them don't even understand the ideological and academic underpinnings of their beliefs. They just subscribe to a whole host of assumptions because it's what good people in their sub culture do.

I agree. They've got their Dogma, and it's sufficient for them. I suspect they're attracted to the dogma in the first place because thinking (really thinking) is hard, and their dogmatic faith shields them somewhat from the troubling uncertainties of the contemporary world.

Quote from: HaffrungAnd they can't imagine that anyone who challenges those assumptions has any motivation except malice. Skepticism, reason, nuance, and empiricism are not welcome.

That's so very true. As all fanaticism-inclined minds, they tend to think of the other ones - those who don't share their views - as malevolent.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1083428Fine, we'll start with you first...

Here is a screenshot of a post over on DF showing what you actually think of the original TSR folks...

https://imgur.com/4HN14Y3 (https://imgur.com/4HN14Y3)


Then a few posts later. you off pontificating about Sherlock Holmes of all things... Not D&D, not old school gaming, nothing really about RPGs, Nothing I would want to visit your message board for, to be sure.

https://imgur.com/2sgphq5 (https://imgur.com/2sgphq5)

Here, lets take a quick look at DF back in 2004, shall we? We'll use this to compare with how Dragonsfoot looks today, this is important because there have been some subtle changes over the years, and those changes have taken the focus away from original D&D and 1eAD&D, and on to other things. These changes have taken the focus away from many of the original contributors especially and including the Alumni of TSR, all justified, the mods there say. I respectfully disagree here and now, and I'll provide some specific reasons why, shortly...

Dragonsfoot as it looked in August 2004

https://imgur.com/igfQlrq (https://imgur.com/igfQlrq)

Notice here that there is a General Discussion area, a classified, and then, right at the the top 1eAD&D, 2e AD&D, Classic D&D, and also Gary's Greyhawk, there is also a space for players (board guests) to place their campaign journals... This is all of the original D&D and early years of TSR.

Here is another screenshot from January of 2005 of the General Discussion area...

(https://imgur.com/6sVK0i3) (https://imgur.com/6sVK0i3)

Notice here, the stickied threads right at the top of the General Discussion area, these threads highlight the original TSR crew that were kind enough to share their early gaming and RPG experiences. This was a big draw for old school gamers, and an endorsement of Dragonsfoot.

Here in 2015 the TSR Q&A Threads were moved away from the General Discussion area and "Isolated" into their own thread separate. I really wish I could find some of the ongoing posts from discussions from that time, because there were some heated confrontations behind all of this, and behind this decision.

(https://imgur.com/xKGn2ye) (https://imgur.com/xKGn2ye)

Now here is a screenshot from January of 2016, notice that you don't see any of the threads leading to the original 1e, 2e & classic D&D posts from TSR anymore. Out of sight, out of mind, eh? As I alleged earlier, and now proven... DRAGONSFOOT - GUILTY OF REMOVING OR CONCEALING ORIGINAL D&D AND TSR POSTS & THREADS provided by many original fans of the game...

(https://imgur.com/VWXSflR) (https://imgur.com/VWXSflR)

Here is Dragonsfoot as it appears right now, in 2019...

(https://imgur.com/ol0x98b) (https://imgur.com/ol0x98b)

You can see the 1eAD&D thread, and the classic D&D threads, way down on the list... The psychological implications of this placement indicate that original D&D and AD&D are no longer viewed by the mods there as important. This is ironic considering that the original draw to this site was because of TSR's original D&D and AD&D. This is also what drew the TSR alumni to the site, who were happy to share, but many of them, even before Frank was banned, stopped sharing there, I wonder if anyone there cared to ask why?... The TSR Alumni threads were then separated from the rest of the threads, and what is implied with this, in unspoken terms, is that they should not be considered as RPG Gamers on par with the rest of the gamers that are a part of Dragonsfoot.

This is why I stopped visiting, and contributing at Dragonsfoot.

I believe this also sent a message, a message that may have been perhaps unintended, to those Woke Morons that make up the SJW, and that message is, that it's ok to diss on the crew that made up the original RPGs, because they are Evvvuulll and not worthy of respect. Congratulations, the SJW have certainly endorsed your message, and appear quite unwilling to put away their torches and pitchforks.

Thank you.  That's exactly the sort of stuff I suspected was actually behind your drive-by on DF, and I'm quite willing to be disliked by anyone who thinks this is worth disliking someone over.  I think the TSR crew were horribad businessmen who are so horribad they still don't understand where they fucked up; and also that deep immersion roleplay is not generally desired by most people who could be prospects for a different type of D&D experience.  

HANG HIM HIGH, SAYS YOU

As to the "purging" of TSR alumni, what you fail to bring to light was how many people were requesting the threads be moved, because as the number of stickies at the top of the general forum grew to over a dozen, people were complaining that the 1st page of the general forum was too short, and topics were falling off onto the 2nd page very quickly.

People didn't like their threads going on to page 2 where they received much less engagement.  

NOTE: I'm just a user over there, but apparently not all users are engaged enough with the site to know its pulse.

Sunlight - its the best.

EDIT - here's a thread from the suggestions section.  Note the reasons.  Note the response.  Note the response to the response.  NOTE THE DATE.

https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=67047&hilit=stickies&p=1535669&view=show#p1535669

You sir, are projecting all of his idol's fuck-ups on to those who you think should shut up and take it for the good of what you want out of the hobby.

Quote from: sureshot;1083448Color me shocked and surprised. Pretty soon some of them angry at SJgames will have no rpgs left on their shelves beyond one huge banner side to side in day glow orange written FULLY WOKE. Hopefully they don't cave to the mentally ill mob and goid on them for standing up so far to the SJWs.

I have to say; as much as it bothers me that SJG is getting flak over this at all, I am at this moment receiving a sick sort of satisfaction from watching TBP work itself into one of its trademark froths over this and devour any comment even remotely perpendicular to their bizarre, goosestepping brand of groupthink.

You'd practically think Steve himself had come over to their houses and assaulted them personally.

Oh well. I suppose that means more GURPS/TFT/DF fans can look forward to finding some fresh print material at the bookstore. That is, assuming anyone in that thread has actually purchased material from SJG, or would have otherwise; the number of comments that are quite literally "That's really unfortunate. Up to today I had a lot invested in SJG emotionally" are staggering already (and they also hit my funny bone pretty hard).

Quote from: Antiquation!;1083466I have to say; as much as it bothers me that SJG is getting flak over this at all, I am at this moment receiving a sick sort of satisfaction from watching TBP work itself into one of its trademark froths over this and devour any comment even remotely perpendicular to their bizarre, goosestepping brand of groupthink.

You'd practically think Steve himself had come over to their houses and assaulted them personally.

Oh well. I suppose that means more GURPS/TFT/DF fans can look forward to finding some fresh print material at the bookstore. That is, assuming anyone in that thread has actually purchased material from SJG, or would have otherwise; the number of comments that are quite literally "That's really unfortunate. Up to today I had a lot invested in SJG emotionally" are staggering already (and they also hit my funny bone pretty hard).

Given a long enough timeline, everyone will eventually get banned from TBP.

Quote from: Lurtch;1083203If SJ Games backs down because Phil Reed would rather be liked by the woke social media people he desperately wants to be friends with over his actual customers I'm done with that company.

And Phil, as a Gamer of Color, I don't want to see you bend the knee to these people that are not your customers!

I hope he doesn't cave in. I can remember Phil Reed when he was running Propaganda Publishing in Cape Girardeau, Missouri. He was a friend of one of my roommates who was pretty conservative at the time and they used to play Half Life in our living room. I remember I submitted an article for a supplement of The Shattered Sky RPG with a free copy of the book as payment but I can't recall if it was ever published. :)

Quote from: Dr. Benton Quest;1083467Given a long enough timeline, everyone will eventually get banned from TBP.

I dare to hope.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1083428Fine, we'll start with you first...

Here is a screenshot of a post over on DF showing what you actually think of the original TSR folks...

I must admit that I have heard a few bad things re: Dragonsfoot and added to the fact that they go around banning TSR folks, well it just gives me a poor impression of the site.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1083466I have to say; as much as it bothers me that SJG is getting flak over this at all, I am at this moment receiving a sick sort of satisfaction from watching TBP work itself into one of its trademark froths over this and devour any comment even remotely perpendicular to their bizarre, goosestepping brand of groupthink.

Seconded the pearl clutching and "never buying from them again EVER!!!" is hilarious and embarrassing as a gamer to watch.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1083466You'd practically think Steve himself had come over to their houses and assaulted them personally.

We all suffer from entitlement imo they take it so much further over at rpg Candyland. So many of them think outside of their echo chamber that they can go to someone home and start spouting off "D&D promotes colonialism and racism and not be tossed from most sane gamers home. Or the suddenly woke because it's cool players are going to waltz up to a DMs home whistling the theme from the Andy Griffth show and take away said DMs game and table and make it woke. That company XYZ is going to cater to them. Mentally ill and brought up the wrong way by their parentsimo. Too much patting on the head and not enough of the five finger discount off the side of the had.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1083466Oh well. I suppose that means more GURPS/TFT/DF fans can look forward to finding some fresh print material at the bookstore. That is, assuming anyone in that thread has actually purchased material from SJG, or would have otherwise; the number of comments that are quite literally "That's really unfortunate. Up to today I had a lot invested in SJG emotionally" are staggering already (and they also hit my funny bone pretty hard).

Either way unlike many other rpg companies SJGames does not have all their eggs in one basket. Gurps and its derivatives were no longer their main source of income. So unless the boycott does major financial damage SJGames probably will not cave to the woke mob. Funny how the usually fully woke members of the board are never to be seen or comment when this kind of bullshit happens. Almost like they are afraid to be out of the cool fully woke kids club. To me their silence speaks vilumes.

Quote from: Shasarak;1083478I must admit that I have heard a few bad things re: Dragonsfoot and added to the fact that they go around banning TSR folks, well it just gives me a poor impression of the site.

Mine as well don't bite the hand that feed you and gave the basis for the site. Even if one can term the behavior of some of the old TSR guard as.. special.

Quote from: EOTB;1083454I think the TSR crew were horribad businessmen who are so horribad they still don't understand where they fucked up;

and also that deep immersion roleplay is not generally desired by most people who could be prospects for a different type of D&D experience.  

1: I think Gary and some others were fairly good businessmen. BUT they had abserdly bad luck and ended up partnering with people who were not just horrible but in at least one case, criminal. The Blumes. Williams, WOTC even and thats just for D&D. Outside D&D several, Gary in particular just kept having bad luck with partners. And this isnt limited to TSR or RPGs. It has happened to other companies over the decades. GOO, Paladium, a couple of midrange and several small indies.

2: For fuck sake I got sick long long ago with these "deep immersion" fanatics. Wanting to get immersed in the gameplay is fine. But there is this faction that keeps trying to take it too far. Seen it in RPGs and especially LARPs. Seen it myself a few times when was working with BDP. Some storygamers practially demand it to the point they want the game part removed totally.

Quote from: Omega;10834871: I think Gary and some others were fairly good businessmen. BUT they had abserdly bad luck and ended up partnering with people who were not just horrible but in at least one case, criminal. The Blumes. Williams, WOTC even and thats just for D&D. Outside D&D several, Gary in particular just kept having bad luck with partners. And this isnt limited to TSR or RPGs. It has happened to other companies over the decades. GOO, Paladium, a couple of midrange and several small indies.

Yeah, the context of that screenshot that was missing, is my comment was in response to late TSR alumni touting how the company had the highest revenue ever right before it tanked.  And I'm not going to get into that argument/thread jack; it was a comment about a small window of TSR's operation.  But I agree with what you're saying.

Quote from: Spike;1083247Also the Imgur link is broken, so I can't read the actual complaint referenced, thus the somewhat elliptical talking around the content of the complaint makes the entire read almost (but not quite) a pointless waste of time, and inadvertantly makes the entire thing about three times longer than it needs to be.

The reason the link is missing is supposedly because the 'victim' requested it be removed. Sadly I caught this after the fact so this is the best record we have (http://archive.fo/fP9sN).

Quote from: JRT;1083248Frog God has had successful Kickstarters since the quoted incident, so it doesn't appear to be affecting their bottom line at all

Yeah, funny that.

Quote from: Lurtch;1083250Because it's blowing up on the Fantasy Trip KS page by Christopher Helton and Ettin.

Imagine my shock.

Quote from: wmarshal;1083279In a relatively short period of time Stacy has launched diatribes against:

• Evil Hat Games
• Frog God Games
• Tenkar's Tavern
• Lamentations of the Flame Princess
• The Diana Jones Award
• Gary Con
• Bundle of Holding
• Steve Jackson Games

Have I missed any? I suspect the larger gaming community is concluding it's better to stay away from the zealotry she leads at Contessa. The zealots will always find fault with anyone they cast their eye upon, because the zealot can never find anyone perfect. Sooner or later she'll find a fault, and due to any past association with with the fallen she'll try to launch a crusade to make up for the past association with the now "unclean" offender. Better to keep Contessa at a distance.

At the rate they're alienating everyone I don't think we'll need to worry about keeping them at a distance for very long, as they're doing a damn fine job of it themselves.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1083376The term Social Justice Warrior is not perjurative,

Yes it is.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1083439Well, TBP has picked it up. With the same result thus far that you would expect.

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/sjg-offering-partial-refunds-and-continuing-to-work-with-bill-webb.844606/

And sure enough, the first #Tweet in that post is from one of the two women Bill's supposed victim called 'traumatizing'.

Or rather I have good reason to believe so, and it must be true because she hasn't denied it.

I haven't had issues at Dragonsfoot. Instead, I've had some good discussions with various OSR designers over the years. I'm a Carcosa fan and Geoffrey the author posts over there pretty regularly. Way back when, there were pissing matches with TSR Revivalists vs. the OSR faction who wants to focus on new creations, but those arguments are probably a decade dead now.  

But DF in my experience is very non-political and wants focus on the thread/forum topic. And that's a good thing.

Overall, I've been good with the moderators. However, I do think TSR veterans deserved more slack for the basic reason that DF couldn't have existed without them.

If you like OSR stuff, DF is worth lurking at least. Especially the old interview threads with TSR folk.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1083339the 0D&D 74 Proboards (Whom have actually banned me, because I like talking about Early Judges Guild and RPGs and my actual experiences in running and playing these games don't line up with what they wanted my experiences to be). I'm not going to say what they want, I'm going to continue to speak of actually what happened, and what occurred, and who was involved in the early days of RPG gaming. Dave Arneson himself, in our meeting requested that I continue to do what I do, even after he is gone, to ensure that people would remember him and his significant contributions to RPG gaming and especially the development and release of D&D.

PLEASE start 2 threads.
First thread, let's talk about Early Judges Guild. Very interested in your thoughts and experiences.
Second thread, let's talk Dave Arneson. I'm a big fan of his ideas.
Feel free to cut and paste from stuff you've posted at Murkhill or Proboards.

Quote from: S'mon;1083350Well if you have to ask... To give you some idea, our BedrockBrendan is regarded as an extreme right winger and possible racist/sexist/fascist over there... So you guys might want to stay away. :D

Holy shit. BB is a good dude.

Wow....glad I bailed on ENW years ago.

Quote from: S'mon;1083425We're all Russian bots funded by Putin to Dehumanise his enemies by calling them NPCs.

Gotta loves those sweet rubles rolling in every month!

Quote from: Lychee of the Exchequer;1083449They've got their Dogma, and it's sufficient for them. I suspect they're attracted to the dogma in the first place because thinking (really thinking) is hard, and their dogmatic faith shields them somewhat from the troubling uncertainties of the contemporary world.

I used to think religion could be replaced with reason and secular thought, but I was VERY wrong. Instead, most of those who reject religion simply go make another religion with even MORE of the troublesome issues caused by blind faith.

The screeching REEEEE of the SJW is ululating of a jihadi. It's bizarre how radical fundamentalism is the default for a mass of humanity.

so wait, is sexual harassment okay now or something? I'm gonna keep buying GURPS stuff regardless, but as far as I know the guy from FGG sexually harassed someone, and boycotting them and people who work with them isn't necessarily a bad thing to do.

Quote from: asron819;1083510so wait, is sexual harassment okay now or something? I'm gonna keep buying GURPS stuff regardless, but as far as I know the guy from FGG sexually harassed someone, and boycotting them and people who work with them isn't necessarily a bad thing to do.

Do you think we should take the victims wishes into account or should we just be offended on their behalf despite what they want?

Quote from: Shasarak;1083512Do you think we should take the victims wishes into account or should we just be offended on their behalf despite what they want?

I'm not offended on their behalf, but I don't get why anyone here is offended on behalf of the victimizer and the people working with them. If someone decides not to buy from someone else because of their actions, and extend that to anyone who works with them, that's a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

Quote from: asron819;1083514I'm not offended on their behalf, but I don't get why anyone here is offended on behalf of the victimizer and the people working with them. If someone decides not to buy from someone else because of their actions, and extend that to anyone who works with them, that's a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

Except that it is not a "reasonable" thing to do.  The reasonable thing would be to have the humility to accept that you dont know what happened and that the people who do know what happened consider the matter closed.

Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

https://www.froggodgames.com/library/?q=forum/response-frog-god-games-events-social-media

While we don't know the exact details, we know it happened. and the matter being closed doesn't mean anyone has to buy their stuff. I think it's ridiculous to say it's unreasonable to not want to support a company based on the actions of someone in charge of that company. Nobody needs a reason not to buy a product in the first place, but that's a pretty good reason if you think you do need one.

Quote from: asron819;1083510so wait, is sexual harassment okay now or something? I'm gonna keep buying GURPS stuff regardless, but as far as I know the guy from FGG sexually harassed someone, and boycotting them and people who work with them isn't necessarily a bad thing to do.

He drunkenly hit on a woman at a convention. It wasn't good behaviour but it wasn't Harvey Weinstein either. Appropriate sanction would be barring him from the con, not destroying his  livelihood.

Quote from: asron819;1083517and the matter being closed doesn't mean anyone has to buy their stuff.

Nobody has to do anything. Some people will choose to boycott products based on whatever judgement they make on the subject, while others won't care and will still buy any products they think are good.

Again, nobody is forced to do anything. What is happening is a concerted campaign to create such a forced boycott, and that is dangerous. Down that road lies darkness.

Quote from: asron819;1083517I think it's ridiculous to say it's unreasonable to not want to support a company based on the actions of someone in charge of that company. Nobody needs a reason not to buy a product in the first place, but that's a pretty good reason if you think you do need one.

Sure, except when people start trying to take that decision away from each individual and turn it into a massive, and I know this is cliché, witch hunt. Judge the matter individually, make your decision individually, but don't try to force that decision on others by trying to shame them into acting the way you want them to act or, even worse, trying to force the industry to make that choice for us.

Quote from: asron819;1083517https://www.froggodgames.com/library/?q=forum/response-frog-god-games-events-social-media

While we don't know the exact details, we know it happened. and the matter being closed doesn't mean anyone has to buy their stuff. I think it's ridiculous to say it's unreasonable to not want to support a company based on the actions of someone in charge of that company. Nobody needs a reason not to buy a product in the first place, but that's a pretty good reason if you think you do need one.

He didn't sexually harass anybody. Stop fucking lying.

Quote from: Lurtch;1083523He didn't sexually harass anybody. Stop fucking lying.

They have been trying to expand the definition of harassment to single interactions. A guy asks a girl out and she says no, they want that to be harassment if she didn't enjoy the approach. So being hit on by a charming bad boy is not harassment but being hit on by an awkward nerd is.

I'm generally very sympathetic to concerns about sexual harassment and discrimination, in gaming and elsewhere, but I think TBP has lost its mind on this one. I just got thread banned for literally asking whether anyone had a link to some specific description of what happened because I wanted to understand that before spouting off along with everyone else.

More generally, this situation falls into a grey zone that no one likes to talk about in a straightforward way. As far as i can tell (based on third hand vague explanations) Webb committed sexual harassment, and the gossip is that he isn't sorry and might do it again. There are a group of people who I have no other reason to judge but that have made the ethical compromise to work in a company with this horse's ass as a CEO. And SJG has made a somewhat more nebulous ethical compromise of working with those people. And I've made a yet more nebulous ethical compromise of purchasing and generally supporting things SJG produces (and I intend to do so whenever their joint projects with FGG's comes out).

No one in this chain of events is doing an awesome job, but I'd like someone to explain to me how they have avoided making exactly the same sort of ethical compromises. Brian Singer (just to grab the first such thing that comes to mind) committed abusive sexual misconduct approximately 100,000,000x worse than Bill Webb. If you saw Bohemian Rhapsody or X-Men (as I have) then you paid him directly, supporting his power and misconduct. If you enjoy and pay to watch movies witth Hugh Jackman, Michael Fassbender, or Jennifer Lawrence in them then you (like me) support people who worked with him out of choice, therefore supporting his power and misconduct. All of this is completely voluntary on everyone's part, as Jennifer Lawrence isn't going to go broke if she skips a Brian Singer project, and no one is making me watch Fassbender movies. How is this any different (other than being worse)? Who out there would like to offer themselves as an example of someone who hasn't made this sort of ethical compromise? It is part of living in a world where human beings commit crimes against one another yet remain part of society.

I find it very annoying that the loud asshole Puritans are, broadly speaking, on the left at the present moment.  That's just fucking wrong, they're supposed to be right-wing assholes.  We're so goddamn transgressive nowadays we're transgressing transgression.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1083527I'm generally very sympathetic to concerns about sexual harassment and discrimination, in gaming and elsewhere, but I think TBP has lost its mind on this one. I just got thread banned for literally asking whether anyone had a link to some specific description of what happened because I wanted to understand that before spouting off along with everyone else.

   You violated RPGNet Unwritten Rule #2: Questioning the account of victims or the judgment of the Mob is by default evidence of bad faith.

   (Rule #1? Thou Shalt Not Dispute or Question the Mods.)

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;1083530I find it very annoying that the loud asshole Puritans are, broadly speaking, on the left at the present moment.  That's just fucking wrong, they're supposed to be right-wing assholes.  We're so goddamn transgressive nowadays we're transgressing transgression.

I'm convinced a lot of these attitudes are innate and temperamental. Some people are just really freaked out by liberal, hedonistic, or individualistic behaviour. 60 years ago, people with that mentality would gravitate towards social conservatism as a way to allay their anxiety and enforce conformity through shaming. Today, people with that same mindset gravitate to the left. Basically, whichever group seems intent on enforcing social norms will attract the pearl-clutchers. Today, that's the left.

This was clear as day when I posted in a thread on BGG about social etiquette at gaming conventions. I put forward what seemed to me an uncontroversial observation that anywhere young, healthy, single people gather in numbers, some of the attendees are likely to have an interest in hooking up, or at least flirting and seeing where it goes. You see this at everything from softball tournaments and music festivals, to backpacker hostels and professional conventions. The notion this might be true at gaming conventions was met with much fainting and clutching of pearls. The giveaway of the mentality of these losers was when everyone assumed that it could only be men who would engage is such crass, disgusting behaviour. These people would fit right in with the Harper Valley PTA.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1083531You violated RPGNet Unwritten Rule #2: Questioning the account of victims or the judgment of the Mob is by default evidence of bad faith.

   (Rule #1? Thou Shalt Not Dispute or Question the Mods.)

I love how these kooks had to invent a new word, "sealioning", to vilify the very act of challenging their assertions.

Quote from: asron819;1083517https://www.froggodgames.com/library/?q=forum/response-frog-god-games-events-social-media

While we don't know the exact details, we know it happened. and the matter being closed doesn't mean anyone has to buy their stuff. I think it's ridiculous to say it's unreasonable to not want to support a company based on the actions of someone in charge of that company. Nobody needs a reason not to buy a product in the first place, but that's a pretty good reason if you think you do need one.

I think there are a few problems with Stacy's approach.

1. The victim of Bill's action had asked that the matter be closed. Personally I disagree with that approach, and would have had Bill's ass thrown in jail if that was an option, not giving a damn about his kids. The kids could have been picked up by Social Services for all I would have cared. They don't get to be a shield for Bill, and it's Bill's job to be concerned about how his actions affects his kids not anyone else's. However, I wasn't the victim, and I think I should respect the victim's wishes. (If Bill is somehow reading this, perhaps he can reflect just how damn close he came to having his family life seriously wrecked by this incident he caused.)

2. By going after anyone that has a relationship with Frog God Games Stacy is approaching this more like a religious purity test. Frog God Games is "unclean" in her mind, therefore anyone having contact with them is also unclean. This can lead to some manipulative cult-like bullshit. Almost any group of people is going to have at least one member who will do something that someone else could consider unclean. If you go along with this kind of thinking you're opening yourself up to being manipulated to turning against anyone the wannabe mob leader next declares unclean.

2a. I think this manipulation can be seen with Stacy's escalations. First her target was that Bill was a special guest at GaryCon. When Bill withdrew as a special guest at GaryCon did she declare victory since she seemed to think this would mean that Bill would not attend GaryCon, and therefore be safe for women? No, in an act of manipulation she then castigated GaryCon for not banning Bill from GaryCon before Bill took the initiative himself to not be a special guest. She demanded genuflection from GaryCon on this matter. Now, in a further manipulation she is going after anyone convenient (Steve Jackson Games, but not Paizo) who has a connection with Frog God Games.

2b. This approach seems impractical on its face, unless the goal is one of manipulation and fund-raising. If one took this approach to it's logical conclusion then there'd be very little gaming available unless it came from Stacy's curated list of approved fun. Imagine taking this approach to a company like Tyson Foods. Maybe Tyson Foods has pissed you off for some reason and you decide to boycott Tyson Foods. First, you stop buying their product at the grocery store. Then you realize they supply several restaurants such as KFC, Taco Bell, McDonald's, Burger King, Wendy's, etc. You decide to not only not buy the chicken products at those restaurants, but to not go to them at all. Then you realize those restaurants are at stadiums, so because those stadiums are doing business with Tyson Foods via the restaurants do you boycott stadium events, whether sports or concerts? You do if someone like Stacy tells you to in order to be a good ally, and you do want to be a good ally, right? Never mind the grocery stores you'd be limited to. Logically extending the boycott past the initial offender gets more and more impractical, but doing so does provide the leader of the boycott plenty of targets to aim the mob of allies at, picking at them one by one looking for a weak target to capitulate. Preferably the capitulation would involve some sort of financial support to Contessa as penance to show their true contrition, and not just a change of behavior.

(Note, I'm not trying to pile on to religion with my analogies, but SJWs strike me as a secular religion using many of the same forms as traditional religion.)

I don't have an issue if someone wants to boycott Bill Webb or Frog God Games themselves. I've bought a few FGG Products over the years, but not much, so even if I wanted to declare I was boycotting FGG it would be of no effect except to be pounding my chest at what a "good person" I was. Trying to extend any such boycott beyond that is manipulation in my opinion, probably in an attempt at a shakedown. For Stacy to bring this up years after the incident, after the victim stated she wanted the matter closed, and when she wasn't even involved stinks of someone trying to leverage the incident for their own gain. Every other posting/tweet she sends is about sending her money, why are people sending Wil Wheaton money when they could send that money to her, how hard it is for her to be bravely fighting for her own causes (so she really deserves some patronage), etc. She intersperses that with occasional practical messages on being a gm, or shout outs to others shilling for more money without engaging with what the others are actually doing...probably hoping for them to give her Patreon a shout out as well.

And now I realize I should add TotalCon to the list of Stacy's targets as well.

Updated list of Stacy's targets. I'm conflicted as to whether to suggest this gets posted and updated as a separate topic so that people can remain aware of her manipulations. Maybe the targets could share notes on how they dealt with her threats, but she'd probably take that as an example of the Patriarchy conspiring to keep marginalized people out of gaming instead of a means to help protect themselves from manipulative people. I've left off some individuals because I don't think some of the individuals want to gets dragged into this. This list also isn't meant to be a statement about innocence or culpability. (The SJW standards change so fast that nobody will ever be truly innocent by their standards at least given time.) It's a list of how many members of the gaming culture she's decided to go after in just 2-3 years. I expect there will be a couple more by the end of this year.

Stacy's Targets:

• Evil Hat Games
• Frog God Games
• Tenkar's Tavern
• Lamentations of the Flame Princess
• The Diana Jones Award
• Gary Con
• Bundle of Holding
• Steve Jackson Games
• Total Con

Wmarshal,

Bill Webb didn't do anything worthy of being arrested and/or prosecuted. Did you notice the "victim" never said what he did? They just lie and imply. He didn't harass her. He made a drunken pass and she rejected him. He didn't stalk her. He doesn't have a history or track record of doing these things at other conventions.

Stop fucking lying and implying! Show the receipts or shut the fuck up!

Quote from: wmarshal;1083538Stacy's Targets:

• Evil Hat Games
• Frog God Games
• Tenkar's Tavern
• Lamentations of the Flame Princess
• The Diana Jones Award
• Gary Con
• Bundle of Holding
• Steve Jackson Games
• Total Con

I thought Evil Hat was SJW (?)
What did Bundle of Holding do?

Phil Reed was kind enough to post a few responses in TBP's thread. Immediately got jumped on, for entirely reasonable statements that imply SJG actually know what happened (because they talked to the people involved directly) versus mad ramblings, accusations and gossip from the brain-melted. These people really are mentally fucking ill, aren't they?

I love that it's blown up from "something vague that may have happened that the alleged victims consider resolved/closed and which were never reported to the police or addressed through legal action in any form" to "SJG is actively saying half of humanity should be raped and Bill Webb is a violent alcoholic who goes to cons and beats the shit out of women (after molesting and raping them, and he still does it at every con he goes to according to ["reports"?])" since the thread started.

Oh, and that trauma victims will now somehow be damaged by the act of playing ANY SJG product, and any possible joy has been sucked out of all their games. "SJG did it, they somehow remotely broke my toys!"

What a fucking trip. Truly, they're living in their own fantasy. You might even call it some sort of a "fantasy trip."

The really stupid thing about my supposed 'sealioning' is I suspect I more or less agree with these dip shits, I just literally don't understand what we are talking about and wanted to see something clear and uncoded before adding my own blather to the general chaos. Are we trying to judge an appropriate response to a verbal harassment, or a physical assault, or a rape? Was the other person mentioned in the third-party reports injured or just jostled and mad? None of this amounts to excusing anyone for anything, but you do have to understand what someone did before you decide whether the right response is to cut off their head. This whole thing is just enormously childish. We have to find some way of dealing with the fact that some percentage of the people in any large community have committed crimes and should be called out for it, yet are still among us and interact with us directly and indirectly in various ways.

I've tried to stay away from RPGnet for the last year or so.  Sadly, this thread sucked me in and at least reminds me why I don't go there anymore.  I've never seen such a bunch of whiny jackasses in my life and that includes grade school.  What the fuck is wrong with them?  Is one of them the reincarnation of Savonarola?

"You must conform to my exact beliefs with no exceptions and make your decisions at the spur of a moment based on a whim and never ask any questions!" seems like a piss-poor basic philosophy to me.

Besides being mentally ill. Many of the fully woke jokers over at rpg.net should not and never be allowed to run any company. They would lose every penny they owned and their workers out on the street jobless due to moral outrage on their part. It's not as simply as SJgames severing ties with FGG.

Nor do many of them have any meaningful lives imo. If their that heavily emotionally invested in something other than friends or family they ain't all their in the head

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;1083530I find it very annoying that the loud asshole Puritans are, broadly speaking, on the left at the present moment.  That's just fucking wrong, they're supposed to be right-wing assholes.  We're so goddamn transgressive nowadays we're transgressing transgression.

The line between good and evil runs through every human heart. One of the positives of the culture wars is that it's taught me that everybody has the potential to be an asshole, and that everyone thinks their intentions are justified.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1083546The really stupid thing about my supposed 'sealioning'

You can't even disagree civily, without getting accused of Sealioning. It's a strawman idea that punishes dissent.

Quote from: Lurtch;1083542Wmarshal,

Bill Webb didn't do anything worthy of being arrested and/or prosecuted. Did you notice the "victim" never said what he did? They just lie and imply. He didn't harass her. He made a drunken pass and she rejected him. He didn't stalk her. He doesn't have a history or track record of doing these things at other conventions.

Stop fucking lying and implying! Show the receipts or shut the fuck up!

Lurtch, you can just piss off with your boner for Bill Webb. Make sure you clean your pillow when your done jerking off to his picture. Frog God Games has admitted to the harassment that occurred at PaizoCon with the statement:

https://www.froggodgames.com/library/?q=forum/response-frog-god-games-events-social-media

Reading the statements from Paizo and Bill's target leaves calling the cops as an option that was not taken.

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uoph?Open-Letter-From-Paizo-CEO-Lisa-Stevens

Lisa Stevens felt Bill did something that would have been worth calling the cops, otherwise why bring it up, and they are closer to the situation than you or I. There was also a witness to a staffer receiving some form of assault from Bill. Bill does deny the assault, but Bill as a witness to his own drunken behavior might be suspect. We will never know with 100% certainty if Bill should have been arrested because the victim of Bill's harassment decided to not involve the cops. (A mistake in my opinion, but it's her mistake to make.)  For the alleged assault an arrest would be a possibility. For getting kicked out of the con/hotel for bad behavior cops could have showed up to escort him off the property/public intoxication/need to take charge of his children since he was in no shape to drive them around to another location. Plenty of scenarios could have played out if they made the call to the cops, but they did not. Frog God Games admitted to bad behavior on Bill's part and offered apologies for such. The fact that you ignore that admission to such just shows how much you're carrying a torch for Bill. The result of that night was that the cops were not called on Bill, but your torch carrying for Bill is your such you can't handle anyone besmirching your fantasy man. Given that Bill Webb and Frog God Games are continuing to work successfully in games, your white knighting of Bill in a thread focused on the SJWs trying to take down Steve Jackson Games., even though there has been essentially a confession to bad behavior, is pathetic.

Quote from: Aglondir;1083543I thought Evil Hat was SJW (?)
What did Bundle of Holding do?

Evil Hat is SJW-riffic. At one point Stacy called for boycotting a kickstarter by Evil Hat Games because she thought it's owner (Fred Hicks) was slut-shaming minis by Kingdoms of Death. Later the Bundle of Holding tried to run a project by which the proceeds from selling Evil Hat product would benefit Contessa. When Fred found out he asked the Bundle of Holding to redirect the proceeds to a different charity, which they did. Admittedly, the Bundle of Holding could have done a better job of coordination and communication, but Stacy used the Bundle of Holding's mistake to declare it doubleplus ungood, and to castigate Fred Hicks for daring to remember that Stacy is a scorpion and will always sting you, always.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1083546The really stupid thing about my supposed 'sealioning' is I suspect I more or less agree with these dip shits, I just literally don't understand what we are talking about and wanted to see something clear and uncoded before adding my own blather to the general chaos. Are we trying to judge an appropriate response to a verbal harassment, or a physical assault, or a rape? Was the other person mentioned in the third-party reports injured or just jostled and mad? None of this amounts to excusing anyone for anything, but you do have to understand what someone did before you decide whether the right response is to cut off their head. This whole thing is just enormously childish. We have to find some way of dealing with the fact that some percentage of the people in any large community have committed crimes and should be called out for it, yet are still among us and interact with us directly and indirectly in various ways.

Hrrrmm?? The usual definition is if a public criminal prosecutor feels that a specific law has been broken, and if there is enough evidence to issue an arrest warrant or summons to appear. Generally our standard here in the United States has been a person is then arrested and charged with a specific crime, and the prosecutor makes their case before a jury or judge, who decides if the person being charged is in fact guilty of breaking the law. With this entire process, the person arrested is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Civil cases are slightly different, however usually only feature business disputes, or misdemeanors, that is to say minor crimes in the eyes of the law. The Judgement of a judge or jury civil court is binding though, just the same as with criminal court.

The sjw use gaslighting, intimidation, and fear to compel their targets to submit to the will of sjw, whatever that may be at the moment, and has no actual basis in criminal, or civil law. Eventually one of them sjw cucks will be stepping over the line, and will target the wrong person, and then they will find themselves on the wrong end of a civil or criminal investigation. It is only a matter of time.

Quote from: Haffrung;1083534I love how these kooks had to invent a new word, "sealioning", to vilify the very act of challenging their assertions.

It's what closed belief systems do. Glancing through the thread I have come to the conclusion that this is what we're dealing with here. But it's no use - they will come under heavy artillery fire from outside anyway.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1083552You can't even disagree civily, without getting accused of Sealioning. It's a strawman idea that punishes dissent.

Greetings!

My friend, forgive my ignorance, as I have not kept up with social media at all. What the hell is "Sealioning"?

All of these new words and expressions--it often feels bewildering to me. My ignorance of such must make me seem like a dinosaur from a distant age.:D
Honestly...sometimes I do feel out-of-step with a lot of it. It's strange feeling like so many aspects of society have flown by me what seems like 20 years.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1083573Greetings!

My friend, forgive my ignorance, as I have not kept up with social media at all. What the hell is "Sealioning"?

No problem. There's a lot of jargon on both sides.

It comes from a Wondermark comic, that caught on.

(http://wondermark.com/c/2014-09-19-1062sea.png)
http://wondermark.com/1k62/

The "joke" is that even reasonable discussion can be harassment if you, you know, break and enter into someone's house and try to have a discussion with them while they're trying to sleep...
I suspect it caught on because it's hard to actually engage in civil discussion, because then one actually has to defend their position, and can't claim victory because the other person is being an ass.

And now, as expected, anyone who even slightly dissented from the pure venom inside that TBP thread has been banned or ordered to leave; plus the mods have posted a warning that anyone who "sealions" or uses "concern trolling" (??) going forward will receive a lengthy ban.

I'm actually sort of surprised it took this long, but still. It's like poetry. The echoiest of echo chambers has once again proved its reputation.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1083574It comes from a Wondermark comic, that caught on.

So it's a pretext to shutdown critical questions in order to maintain the closed belief system. What else is new under the sun?

Quote from: Antiquation!;1083580And now, as expected, anyone who even slightly dissented from the pure venom inside that TBP thread has been banned or ordered to leave; plus the mods have posted a warning that anyone who "sealions" or uses "concern trolling" (??) going forward will receive a lengthy ban.

I'm actually sort of surprised it took this long, but still. It's like poetry. The echoiest of echo chambers has once again proved its reputation.

I like that the reasoning for the warning I received is a complete non-sequitur.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1083581I like that the reasoning for the warning I received is a complete non-sequitur.

I saw that too. What a joke.

I wonder if Stacy D. was in contact with Mandy Morbid and encouraged her to go after Zak S. It would weirdly fit the pattern of sociopathic behavior she's become known for.

Sea lions! LOL. How cute the anti-free speech crowd has fun new words!

Quote from: Antiquation!;1083580And now, as expected, anyone who even slightly dissented from the pure venom inside that TBP thread has been banned or ordered to leave;

Excellent! How many bans? Anyone go out in style?

Quote from: jeff37923;1083586I wonder if Stacy D. was in contact with Mandy Morbid and encouraged her to go after Zak S. It would weirdly fit the pattern of sociopathic behavior she's become known for.

Based on what I remember from the email from Mandy's father, it sounds like Mandy has been in terrible shape physically and then spiraled down emotionally thanks to a social media pit of vipers. Certainly sounds like the equivalents of Stacy D, but hopefully not her.

But sadly, quite often a woman's worst enemy is usually other women in their social circles, so who knows.

Interesting how that whole teacup tempest went rather suddenly silent.

Quote from: asron819;1083517While we don't know the exact details, we know it happened. and the matter being closed doesn't mean anyone has to buy their stuff. I think it's ridiculous to say it's unreasonable to not want to support a company based on the actions of someone in charge of that company. Nobody needs a reason not to buy a product in the first place, but that's a pretty good reason if you think you do need one.

So you dont know what happened but you know something happened?

I think that is the essence of unreasonableness, blaming someone for a crime that happened in your imagination.

Quote from: jeff37923;1083586I wonder if Stacy D. was in contact with Mandy Morbid and encouraged her to go after Zak S. It would weirdly fit the pattern of sociopathic behavior she's become known for.

Yes, it was Stacey D who arranged the whole thing. That is public record.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1083587Excellent! How many bans? Anyone go out in style?

Nah, not particularly.

Just a couple temp bans that I saw, and they weren't even inflammatory or interesting posts; just people simply asking questions (then banned because of their post history and for being 'uppity', etc.).

Everyone else who asked for links to evidence or even a description of what happened, questioned the rationality of damning everyone and everything associated with a given person no matter how removed, etc. just got ordered to leave and were issued warnings.

At this point, with their "extended ban" warning now in place, I doubt we'll see any good action that way. I did half-consider posting a big "fuck you, retards, and fuck your virtue signalling, power-thirsty mods" post and getting myself permabanned but I don't have the right energy to fuel it right now.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1083580And now, as expected, anyone who even slightly dissented from the pure venom inside that TBP thread has been banned or ordered to leave; plus the mods have posted a warning that anyone who "sealions" or uses "concern trolling" (??) going forward will receive a lengthy ban.

I'm actually sort of surprised it took this long, but still. It's like poetry. The echoiest of echo chambers has once again proved its reputation.

I told you it was a matter of time before they pulled the " concern trolling " bullshit out of their asses to cover their bad behavior. They use it as an excuse to silence any post they don't like or poster that refuses to follow the narrative. It does not even make sense like hodoing as a term. Then some of you here wonder why I call them mentally ill. It's not normal to pull imaginary words out of ones collective asses and use them in the real world.

Notice how none of them have the stones to go to the SJGames website to vent their so called anger, wokeness and emotional "frustration". They now they would get banned. Better to stay in the echo chamber suckling at the collective woken tit.

Exalted 3rd edition should had told everyone that sureshot.  Plenty of the mods were Onyx Path freelancers at the time and they were banning people left and right.  Sure a few were assholes, but most of these banned people were just angry fans wondering where their money went to as the game was more than a year late.  These fans were given the shit treatment and wanted to vent their justified outrage in RPG.net.

The best thing about this news is that it reminded me that Munchkin Starfinder is a thing and that I have not purchased it yet.

I think I will go for the Munchkin Starfinder - I Want It All Super Deluxe Boxed set.

From the 1995 game Illuminati: New World Order by SJ Games:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3330[/ATTACH]

Quote from: S'mon;1083592Yes, it was Stacey D who arranged the whole thing. That is public record.

Wow, then the trail of damage she has caused lengthens. Stacey D is going to be remembered like Ken Whitman is.

Ironically, I just got this today-
(https://froggodgames.com/frogs/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Book-of-Dirty-Tricks-1.png)

I have no horse in this race per se but I do have to wonder how long before the SJWs are burning books? I'm thinking this step can't be that far off.

Quote from: S'mon;1083592Yes, it was Stacey D who arranged the whole thing. That is public record.

Link?

Quote from: Spinachcat;1083636Link?

If your google fu fails I suppose I could google it but you'll have to wait until I get back from vacation. We had ginormous thread about it in Pundit's forum.

Have fun on vacation! Turn off your internet!

Quote from: Snowman0147;1083604Exalted 3rd edition should had told everyone that sureshot.  Plenty of the mods were Onyx Path freelancers at the time and they were banning people left and right.  Sure a few were assholes, but most of these banned people were just angry fans wondering where their money went to as the game was more than a year late.  These fans were given the shit treatment and wanted to vent their justified outrage in RPG.net.

It was good I would say seven years or more before I began to see the guards joining with the inmates to take over and run the prison so to speak. What gets me is too many think they are so much better than anyone else over at rpg.net. When in reality they are sad, pathetic, pitiful and perhaps more than a little insane. The sheer ego to think that SJGames or any rpg company for that matter should lose money because of "reasons" and more importantly "feels" shows to me that they are not normal in the head. I think many of them outside of their echo chamber would have a Trump winning the election meltdown if they went to gamer homes which are not woke. Or meet gamers not willing to put up with their immaturity and entitlement.

Quote from: EOTB;1083413If there is, I'm there so much that I can't tell the difference.  It wouldn't surprise me if DF's culture hasn't changed more than once in the 20 years its been around, though.

Yeah that's not the case.

Once the K&K crowd started re-infesting the site from their "we're taking our ball and going home" hissy fit DF started to change and not for the better.

YMMV.

Quote from: Shasarak;1083591So you dont know what happened but you know something happened?

I think that is the essence of unreasonableness, blaming someone for a crime that happened in your imagination.

I said we don't know every single detail, not what happened. The company itself acknowledged the incident and apologized.

Quote from: Willmark;1083657Yeah that's not the case.

Once the K&K crowd started re-infesting the site from their "we're taking our ball and going home" hissy fit DF started to change and not for the better.

YMMV.

Greetings!

Hmmm...interesting. What did the "K and K" crowd have a hissy fit over? A long time ago, I briefly visited DF. At the time, DF seemed fairly straightforward, even being pedestrian in their demeanor. I don't consider such to be a negative, rather a certain zeal to stay strictly within the subject lines as it were. They seemed to be solid and genuine. I am at a loss for why anyone would have a problem with DF, at that distant incarnation. I'm thinking circa 2002 to 2006. What the hell is wrong with those K and K people? How did they proceed to fuck up DF? I remember Gary Gygaxx and other TSR folks would often stop by and visit. It seemed like a pretty nice place.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I like how they escalated Webb's 'crimes' over the course of the thread.  First he was a harasser, then a sexual harasser then a drunken sexual harasser, moved up to an unrepentant alcoholic and now he's a sexual abuser.  Can't wait to see how far this goes.

Yaay grog on grog action!! :D Makes a change from the horrors of Social Justice. :D

For the record, I filed a complaint (not an appeal) regarding my warning on rpg.net and we'll just have to see what comes out of it. I like keeping an open-mind and giving people the opportunity to disappoint/not disappoint me.

You are going to get banned. Perhaps not now, but soon enough.

Quote from: SHARK;1083672Greetings!

Hmmm...interesting. What did the "K and K" crowd have a hissy fit over? A long time ago, I briefly visited DF. At the time, DF seemed fairly straightforward, even being pedestrian in their demeanor. I don't consider such to be a negative, rather a certain zeal to stay strictly within the subject lines as it were. They seemed to be solid and genuine. I am at a loss for why anyone would have a problem with DF, at that distant incarnation. I'm thinking circa 2002 to 2006. What the hell is wrong with those K and K people? How did they proceed to fuck up DF? I remember Gary Gygaxx and other TSR folks would often stop by and visit. It seemed like a pretty nice place.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

That's Willmark's way of describing making the K&KA forum.  He's harped this note for a while, here and other places. https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1923366#p1923366  

His premise is imaginative.  I think we all know one of those guys who purely seethes with resentment over something, and thereafter spreads discrediting gossip around because he wants others to share his dislike.  

What can you do?  Not much.  If people wish to dislike DF they'll find a reason.  K&KA lives rent-free in Willmark's head - mentioning DF anywhere he goes brings out a "K&KA killed it" post like a doctor hitting your knee with a rubber hammer.  For the narrow purpose of carrying grudges over unknown slights, Willmark has wished himself an effective strength of 20.

I mean - DF is right there.  If someone said "Denver has been turned into shithole!" I can go look at same-day pictures on google and see for myself.  Same with DF.  It's not El Dorado across the sea, where you have to rely on the word of people who claim to have been there, whispered in smoky taverns across rough tables.

Quote from: EOTB;1083688That's Willmark's way of describing making the K&KA forum.  He's harped this note for a while, here and other places. https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1923366#p1923366  

His premise is imaginative.  I think we all know one of those guys who purely seethes with resentment over something, and thereafter spreads discrediting gossip around because he wants others to share his dislike.  

What can you do?  Not much.  If people wish to dislike DF they'll find a reason.  K&KA lives rent-free in Willmark's head - mentioning DF anywhere he goes brings out a "K&KA killed it" post like a doctor hitting your knee with a rubber hammer.  For the narrow purpose of carrying grudges over unknown slights, Willmark has wished himself an effective strength of 20.

I mean - DF is right there.  If someone said "Denver has been turned into shithole!" I can go look at same-day pictures on google and see for myself.  Same with DF.  It's not El Dorado across the sea, where you have to rely on the word of people who claim to have been there, whispered in smoky taverns across rough tables.

Dragonsfoot definitely is a lot worse now than when I first started posting back in 2003-2004. I had my account deleted specifically because it got annoyingly bad. You can pretend that's not the case all you want.

What I find really funny is how ruthlessly effective all the detractors make us K&KA guys out to be.

"They didn't like what the site was, and they took their ball and went somehwhere else"

"We don't like what the site is, so we've deleted our accounts and/or no longer participate"

"They went out, created their own site, and then plotted a massive take-over of the original, which they subsequently executed"

"We on the other hand, tried to make a site and lure people to it as an alternative, which completely failed to gain traction, and now we snipe from the alleyways of other sites about how mean and horrible they are"

Rent-fucking-free.

Quote from: Melan;1083681You are going to get banned. Perhaps not now, but soon enough.

I accepted the probability before I hit the first keystroke typing the original post. As mentioned: I like giving people the opportunity to reveal who they are, for better or for worse.

Quote from: EOTB;1083697What I find really funny is how ruthlessly effective all the detractors make us K&KA guys out to be.

"They didn't like what the site was, and they took their ball and went somehwhere else"

"We don't like what the site is, so we've deleted our accounts and/or no longer participate"

"They went out, created their own site, and then plotted a massive take-over of the original, which they subsequently executed"

"We on the other hand, tried to make a site and lure people to it as an alternative, which completely failed to gain traction, and now we snipe from the alleyways of other sites about how mean and horrible they are"

Rent-fucking-free.

100% pure cope.

Quote from: EOTB;1083688That's Willmark's way of describing making the K&KA forum.  He's harped this note for a while, here and other places. https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1923366#p1923366  

His premise is imaginative.  I think we all know one of those guys who purely seethes with resentment over something, and thereafter spreads discrediting gossip around because he wants others to share his dislike.  

What can you do?  Not much.  If people wish to dislike DF they'll find a reason.  K&KA lives rent-free in Willmark's head - mentioning DF anywhere he goes brings out a "K&KA killed it" post like a doctor hitting your knee with a rubber hammer.  For the narrow purpose of carrying grudges over unknown slights, Willmark has wished himself an effective strength of 20.

I mean - DF is right there.  If someone said "Denver has been turned into shithole!" I can go look at same-day pictures on google and see for myself.  Same with DF.  It's not El Dorado across the sea, where you have to rely on the word of people who claim to have been there, whispered in smoky taverns across rough tables.

You're mistaken. If the K&K jackasses want to continue to pretend that they are still more Gygax than Gygax that's their business not mine.

But when certain ones want to tell me my fun is wrong/bad? Guess what when off the preserve (like here) they can't fall back to timeouts and bans. This is the Wild West here and certain K&Kers (note I didn't say all) can go pound sand.

And it's a bit rich coming from you of all people, don't you have some more TSR alum to troll for over a year? Frank might have ended up being a total clown but you hardly came away the hero there champ.

When have I ever bragged about any of that whole mess?  WHEN, Willmark?  The only time I address it is when people bring it up to me and/or try to recast the history for their own purposes.  Do you consider yourself trolling towards me right now with the cross-forum drama in a thread about SJG?  I don't; I consider it your venting of your frustration and nothing more.  

You've had problems with DF mods?  Perhaps a mirror, instead of a conspiracy, would be a better course.  You're right: RPGSite is the wild west; DF is a London street.  And yet your approach differs not at all between the two.  I'm not responsible for your tendency to, if upset, play the man instead of the field.  I don't even interact with you on DF.  Do I seem worried about interacting with you here?  Angry bitter people only raise your profile, so why would I stop you?

I mean seriously, look at your post.  It's filled with resentment over people not liking what you like - apparently vocally so - and blaming your troubles on others who are obviously conspiring against you, all while appealing to the crowd that this person is mean.  It's like a twin of Chris Brady's stock argument, lost at birth.  Sure, some people might take it at face value.  But IME for every manlet who's emotionally predisposed to eat that shit up, there's five more who silently look it over and start talking with me.  Straining out anyone who takes this stuff at face value is value-added.

Quote from: EOTB;1083735Sure, some people might take it at face value.  But IME for every manlet who's emotionally predisposed to eat that shit up, there's five more who silently look it over and start talking with me.  Straining out anyone who takes this stuff at face value is value-added.

How fat and/or bald are you? Asking for a friend.

I'm 500 lbs and haven't had any hair for 30 years.

What is a K&Ker? I have not come across that term before.

Quote from: Brad;1083741How fat and/or bald are you? Asking for a friend.

So typical of Natalie Portman to fat and hair-shame other people.











:D

Quote from: BronzeDragon;1083746So typical of Natalie Portman to fat and hair-shame other people.











:D

Yeah but it is a real shock to see Keira Knightly join in!

Quote from: Shasarak;1083745What is a K&Ker? I have not come across that term before.

The Knights & Knaves Alehouse. This is an old school BBS that was later modified into a forum like the RPGsite here. K&KA focuses on 0D&D and AD&D 1e mostly. I would spend more time over there and post more often however they have firewalled off many of the sections that I would be interested in reading and discussing and require a login even to view those sections. For the record, my private business in any particular Forum or BBS, is not the business of the Forum or BBS owners, unless I want to publicly post and make it their business.


Here are the newer Forums with more current posts...
http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/index.php


This is the older of the two Forums now just archived and available for review. The original mods were very anti-RPG where the RPGs were not D&D or AD&D1e. You can just read through and see their history and discussions here.

http://knightsnknaves.proboards.com/board/2/book-ad

Another old school forum similar to K&KA is Circvs Maximvs, and that is really Mos Eisley over there. It's a live arena of bullies, sharks, and predators that revel in hazing and humiliation. I posted just once back in 2006 or 2007, and haven't been back since, becuase not even one of the forum posters or members was honest about wanting to have a discussion about RPG gaming. They might actually have some good discussions about games over there, but I wouldn't know as it is a waste of my time to wade through the bullshit and hostility there just to find the few gems of discussion threads about gaming that they might actually have.

http://www.circvsmaximvs.com/forum/forum.php

This is actually pretty fair, but if people join they'll easily discern that they see the same site after joining that they saw when they weren't members.  I'm not sure what sections are being referred to as viewable only with membership.

The selection of games the site supports is much more narrow than most other RPG sites.  That is a fact.  While K&KA does have members who greatly dislike versions of D&D the site doesn't support, most members actually are big fans of at least one system (B/X, AD&D 2E, BECMI, etc.) not discussed on the site.  

We simply want a site that doesn't become a kitchen-sink RPG site, or every third question isn't about "how do I convert XYZ to game ABC?".  That's what this place or the Pub is for.  Why be the same?  We want a site for people who need no introduction to AD&D, and aren't interested in rehashing level limits, energy drain, and similar stuff more than once every five years or so.

Quote from: EOTB;1083735When have I ever bragged about any of that whole mess?  WHEN, Willmark?

Please point to where I said you did. I'll wait, No I won't your trolling is 100% yours.

Quote from: EOTB;1083735The only time I address it is when people bring it up to me and/or try to recast the history for their own purposes.

Again your issue not mine. Although some might be unaware of your part in the whole sad affair.

Quote from: EOTB;1083735Do you consider yourself trolling towards me right now with the cross-forum drama in a thread about SJG?

You made a statement in this thread I answered it. If that qualifies as drama that's on you.

Quote from: EOTB;1083735You've had problems with DF mods?  Perhaps a mirror, instead of a conspiracy, would be a better course.

DF used to be a great place in the absence of the K&K Taliban. Then slowly but surely they came back. Add in the fact that K&Kers get a pass? No thanks. Its still an excellent place for resources, but not as a hangout. Of course YMMV.

Quote from: EOTB;1083735You're right: RPGSite is the wild west

You're right here you can get both barrels. Wild West RPGs and a forum just like it.  

Quote from: EOTB;1083735DF is a London street.

It certainly does have that "Mother May I" quality from certain mods.  

Quote from: EOTB;1083735And yet your approach differs not at all between the two.  I'm not responsible for your tendency to, if upset, play the man instead of the field.

Upset? Please tell me my mood right now since you apparently know so much? I must have missed you over my should these last few decades.  

Quote from: EOTB;1083735I don't even interact with you on DF.

Thank goodness, I might get trolled non-stop for over a year and then PMs start becoming public, madness!

Quote from: EOTB;1083735Do I seem worried about interacting with you here?

Why are you one of the K&K Taliban? Not really then the most egregious ones know when to stay home.

Quote from: EOTB;1083735I mean seriously, look at your post.

I have, yours on the other hand are a bunch of replies attempting to me how I feel on the subject? Can I get the winning lottery numbers to?

Quote from: EOTB;1083735It's filled with resentment over people not liking what you like - apparently vocally so

I have zero issues with people no liking what I do. I do find it amusing that there is a segment of gaming that can spout of and expect no criticism sent back their way. Its funny but its like "what me? I didnt do anything wrong!"

Quote from: EOTB;1083735- and blaming your troubles on others who are obviously conspiring against you, all while appealing to the crowd that this person is mean.

Conspiracy? There is certainly a tendency for certain posters to get more leeway.

Quote from: EOTB;1083735But IME for every manlet who's emotionally predisposed to eat that shit up, there's five more who silently look it over and start talking with me.  Straining out anyone who takes this stuff at face value is value-added.

The fact that in even in just this short exchange over the last few pages and your (apparent?) surprise that people don't view things the way you do is far more telling.

In the end my stance has been pretty much the same for quite a a while: play what you want. I do find it amusing that the K&Kers when off the preserve don't think their reputation proceeds them.

DF? I pop in and read something every once in a while or look for used gaming materials, but these days I'm getting back to my roots of wargaming which is of far more interest than RPGs to me as of late. Hence my reason why I read through this entire thread and my commentary.

All-
Now that I've said what I wanted to, back to SJG. I've been following along here and elsewhere and from what I've gathered they are getting dog piled because of association with Frog God games? Not anything that SJG themselves did directly? As in guilt by association?

Further Edit: I read the links off of page 1 but this is from 2017, why is this popping back up now? Is there something else to it?

Quote from: EOTB;1083688That's Willmark's way of describing making the K&KA forum.  He's harped this note for a while, here and other places. https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1923366#p1923366  

His premise is imaginative.  I think we all know one of those guys who purely seethes with resentment over something, and thereafter spreads discrediting gossip around because he wants others to share his dislike.  

What can you do?  Not much.  If people wish to dislike DF they'll find a reason.  K&KA lives rent-free in Willmark's head - mentioning DF anywhere he goes brings out a "K&KA killed it" post like a doctor hitting your knee with a rubber hammer.  For the narrow purpose of carrying grudges over unknown slights, Willmark has wished himself an effective strength of 20.

I mean - DF is right there.  If someone said "Denver has been turned into shithole!" I can go look at same-day pictures on google and see for myself.  Same with DF.  It's not El Dorado across the sea, where you have to rely on the word of people who claim to have been there, whispered in smoky taverns across rough tables.

Greetings!

Thank you, EOTB. I don't know much about DF or K and K. I have nothing against either of them. I don't know who K and K is.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: GameDaddy;1083754
The Knights & Knaves Alehouse. This is an old school BBS that was later modified into a forum like the RPGsite here. K&KA focuses on 0D&D and AD&D 1e mostly. I would spend more time over there and post more often however they have firewalled off many of the sections that I would be interested in reading and discussing and require a login even to view those sections. For the record, my private business in any particular Forum or BBS, is not the business of the Forum or BBS owners, unless I want to publicly post and make it their business.


Here are the newer Forums with more current posts...
http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/index.php

Thanks for that.

All forums change over time.

I haven't been on K&KA or OD&DProboards for a decade. Back when, I wasn't impressed and didn't enjoy the membership. I found Dragonsfoot much more welcoming and fun. But I haven't spend much time on DF as an active member in the past couple of years so I can't fully speak for their day to day culture. It's quite possible I'd have a better time now at K&KA vs. DF, but who knows.

The big difference I felt back when was DF was more welcoming of the OSR whereas K&KA wasn't keen on OSR stuff, unless it was specific for AD&D 1e. However, I do agree with EOTB that there's no reason for every RPG site to be a generalist site. There is plenty of room for forums that are specific to one game or handful of games.

Quote from: Willmark;1083762All-
Now that I've said what I wanted to, back to SJG. I've been following along here and elsewhere and from what I've gathered they are getting dog piled because of association with Frog God games? Not anything that SJG themselves did directly? As in guilt by association?

Further Edit: I read the links off of page 1 but this is from 2017, why is this popping back up now? Is there something else to it?

Yes, it does seem to be guilt by association, but I believe the motivation is at least in part to maintain a closed social system, much like a cult. Boycotting Frog God Games itself over Bill Webb is not enough for them. Not even just boycotting The Fanstast Trip line by SJG is enough since it now has direct involvement with FGG. The target has to be expanded to include all of SJG. I wouldn't be surprised if at some point their target list expands to cons that feature SJG.

As for why now? I believe it started when Stacy Dellorfano and her minion Christopher Helton (or maybe it's the other way around in reality) decided to target FGG, and they switch their focus every month or so as conventions come and go, or new partnerships with FGG come to their notice.

It's interesting that the rpg.net thread doesn't mention her name much (if at all), but I think that's due to the grudge many on rpg.net hold against Stacy for her prior support of Zak S. Basically the Bolshevik (rpg.net and allies) and Menshevik (Zak S. and allies) wings of gaming SJW don't like each other very much. Stacy is trying to essentially be like Trotsky and move from the Mensheviks to the Bolsheviks. (Which didn't turn out so well for Trotsky.)

Personally, I think Contessa has been struggling for resources, and these campaigns are a means to attract support/demand tribute from gaming cons and companies. On the other hand, Stacy has attacked many for wrongthink the past few years, so maybe this is just her being the scorpion that she is.

If successful I think she'd love to be able to dictate business relationships amongst the gaming companies since she'd almost always be able to find something problematic with either a member of a company's staff or content they created previously that's now considered "unsafe."

One irony in all this is that Stacy still promotes Frog God Games on her website //www.frivology.com/about-me with links to FGG and the product she helped create with them. (Archive at //www.archive.fo/t76cp in case of a later airbrush.)

Welp, I got banned from TBP in that SJG thread.  Apparently I was "concern-trolling".  I'm really not sure what that means.  I had always assumed trolling was agitating just for the sake of agitating.  If I legitimately believe that we need to take a measured response to these sorts of situations, well I guess I don't know what trolling is.

Apparently according to RPG.net we are the bad guys when it comes to forums. They have bi-partisan mods, ones who not only shut down threads with made up imaginary terms. Insult posters for trying to hear both sides of the story yet also block them just before they insult them. Have turning the site into one giant leftist fully woke narrative of a website where no one is allowed to post if they think differently. We are the worst place.

Voros remember snitches get stitches

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/sjg-offering-partial-refunds-and-continuing-to-work-with-bill-webb-see-redtext-in-post-163.844606/page-20

Quote from: Dr. Benton Quest;1083810Welp, I got banned from TBP in that SJG thread.  Apparently I was "concern-trolling".  I'm really not sure what that means.  I had always assumed trolling was agitating just for the sake of agitating.  If I legitimately believe that we need to take a measured response to these sorts of situations, well I guess I don't know what trolling is.

Remember though we are the much worse than them when it comes to rpg forums. You were banned with the use of an imaginary purelly rpg.net invented terms. We are bad because we don't bend over backwards to indulge in whatever current narrative is in vogue over at that cesspool.

Thank you for standing up for us here at the site. Though be careful because you did that you are know in the rpg.net mods bad graces. They will use any excuse if not possibly perma ban you for defending this site.

Quote from: Dr. Benton Quest;1083810Welp, I got banned from TBP in that SJG thread.  Apparently I was "concern-trolling".  I'm really not sure what that means.  I had always assumed trolling was agitating just for the sake of agitating.  If I legitimately believe that we need to take a measured response to these sorts of situations, well I guess I don't know what trolling is.

Greetings!

Welcome to the forum here, sir! Good to have you with us! Grab a nice drink, light up a fine cigar. You are now a member of a site that believes in FREEDOM, brother!

TBP...wow...I don't know how your survived that place however long you did. I would be banned in a blink, I'm sure.:D

To hell with them, my friend. Here you have fellow forum members that are reasonable, mature, and sane.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The animosity for this site that you'll find at TBP and some other places didn't come out of nowhere. The top page of active threads pretty much always contains multiple highly political themes, the person who administers the site is highly political in much of what he posts, and there is a modest-size but very active core of members who constantly blather about 'feminazis' and 'SJW's' and all the rest of the alt-right-light BS. It is pretty irritating, and is why I have dramatically reduced my time spent here. I don't think a neutrally inclined person could say there is much difference in the quality of discussion between the worst threads here and at TBP.

BUT, what clearly distinguishes this site from TBP is the fact that I can come here and say all that without having a jack booted dip shit jump down my throat. The content of their politics is neither here nor there; it is pretty much as stupid as every other echo chamber you find online (including all the 'SJW' threads here). The problem with TBP is their mod's and frequent posters' performative outrage. At this point their only response to even the slightest note of real or (more often) imagined disagreement is to use a bunch of ham fisted, made up rules to shut you up.

I feel like Rpgpub is pretty much the only forum right now that is active enough to keep my interest and hasn't been overtaken by hard-right or hard-left blow hards.

Correction Benton Quest. Considering what you said and the punishment they gave you it is pretty clear to me that they used your support for this site to give you a much longer ban. What you said does not imo fit the crime. But hey we are the worst of the two sites everybody.

Beyond Pundit and a few posters I don't think this forum is really that much more political than many others. It seems to me at least that those who champion free speech or claim to not want an echo chamber. Are the exact opposite imo. For example because we will not simply take a women word that something bad happened to her. I and others here would be called misogynistic and enablers of violence towards woemn. When many here are simply " a women came forward lets just not take their word for and due process take it's course. Instead be cause we refuse to just echo the usual narrative of "believe at any cost even if it ruins others people lives". We are alt=Right anti-women haters. Man, woman, trans whatever your gender I'm not taking anyone words without at least due process of the law.

Quote from: sureshot;1083819Correction Benton Quest. Considering what you said and the punishment they gave you it is pretty clear to me that they used your support for this site to give you a much longer ban. What you said does not imo fit the crime. But hey we are the worst of the two sites everybody.

Beyond Pundit and a few posters I don't think this forum is really that much more political than many others. It seems to me at least that those who champion free speech or claim to not want an echo chamber. Are the exact opposite imo. For example because we will not simply take a women word that something bad happened to her. I and others here would be called misogynistic and enablers of violence towards woemn. When many here are simply " a women came forward lets just not take their word for and due process take it's course. Instead be cause we refuse to just echo the usual narrative of "believe at any cost even if it ruins others people lives". We are alt=Right anti-women haters. Man, woman, trans whatever your gender I'm not taking anyone words without at least due process of the law.

Well, we'll see.  I've been reading rpg.net for over 20 years.  I never posted much.  In recent years I've hedged my bets and didn't post because if I had an opinion that differed I was pretty sure it wouldn't go down well.

I'll see how it goes. It might just be I'm not a good fit over there anymore.  Shame really.  I met my local gaming group through rpg.net and have fond memories from there.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1083816The animosity for this site that you'll find at TBP and some other places didn't come out of nowhere. The top page of active threads pretty much always contains multiple highly political themes, the person who administers the site is highly political in much of what he posts, and there is a modest-size but very active core of members who constantly blather about 'feminazis' and 'SJW's' and all the rest of the alt-right-light BS. It is pretty irritating, and is why I have dramatically reduced my time spent here. I don't think a neutrally inclined person could say there is much difference in the quality of discussion between the worst threads here and at TBP.

BUT, what clearly distinguishes this site from TBP is the fact that I can come here and say all that without having a jack booted dip shit jump down my throat. The content of their politics is neither here nor there; it is pretty much as stupid as every other echo chamber you find online (including all the 'SJW' threads here). The problem with TBP is their mod's and frequent posters' performative outrage. At this point their only response to even the slightest note of real or (more often) imagined disagreement is to use a bunch of ham fisted, made up rules to shut you up.

I feel like Rpgpub is pretty much the only forum right now that is active enough to keep my interest and hasn't been overtaken by hard-right or hard-left blow hards.

Without a doubt there is a broader range of opinion here than on TPB.  True, some members have conservative opinions, but I also usually see more liberal members challenge them as well.  I remember when that used to happen on TPB.  Right now I tend to go to rpg.net to view what's going on with the newer, trendier side of gaming and therpgsite to see what's going on with the older, OSR crowd.  That's making sweeping generalizations about the content of both sites, but usually it runs around those lines.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1083816BUT, what clearly distinguishes this site from TBP is the fact that I can come here and say all that without having a jack booted dip shit jump down my throat. The content of their politics is neither here nor there; it is pretty much as stupid as every other echo chamber you find online (including all the 'SJW' threads here). The problem with TBP is their mod's and frequent posters' performative outrage. At this point their only response to even the slightest note of real or (more often) imagined disagreement is to use a bunch of ham fisted, made up rules to shut you up.

For an echo chamber, there sure are a lot of people disagreeing here.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1083816The animosity for this site that you'll find at TBP and some other places didn't come out of nowhere. The top page of active threads pretty much always contains multiple highly political themes, the person who administers the site is highly political in much of what he posts, and there is a modest-size but very active core of members who constantly blather about 'feminazis' and 'SJW's' and all the rest of the alt-right-light BS. It is pretty irritating, and is why I have dramatically reduced my time spent here. I don't think a neutrally inclined person could say there is much difference in the quality of discussion between the worst threads here and at TBP.

BUT, what clearly distinguishes this site from TBP is the fact that I can come here and say all that without having a jack booted dip shit jump down my throat. The content of their politics is neither here nor there; it is pretty much as stupid as every other echo chamber you find online (including all the 'SJW' threads here). The problem with TBP is their mod's and frequent posters' performative outrage. At this point their only response to even the slightest note of real or (more often) imagined disagreement is to use a bunch of ham fisted, made up rules to shut you up.

I feel like Rpgpub is pretty much the only forum right now that is active enough to keep my interest and hasn't been overtaken by hard-right or hard-left blow hards.

I think most of us here are just soft left liberals who didn't change our views. If we were soft left in 1996, we're hard right now.

Quote from: Dr. Benton Quest;1083823Without a doubt there is a broader range of opinion here than on TPB.  True, some members have conservative opinions, but I also usually see more liberal members challenge them as well.  I remember when that used to happen on TPB.

By my reckoning, the trend there was cemented when Open became yet another Tangency.

Quote from: S'mon;1083827I think most of us here are just soft left liberals who didn't change our views. If we were soft left in 1996, we're hard right now.

That describes me.  I'm pretty much center-left.

Although if I tell my old gaming group that I got kicked out of a forum for not being liberal enough, they would laugh their ass off.  They are all died in the wool conservatives and I'm the dirty hippy.

It's political everywhere.  People are simply more honest about that fact here.

Quote from: S'mon;1083827I think most of us here are just soft left liberals who didn't change our views. If we were soft left in 1996, we're hard right now.

Words of truth right there, although I would put the date even farther back in my case. :)

Just the other day I asked my wife, who has known me since the late 80s, if my opinions on Government, Law Enforcement, Civil Liberties, etc. had changed any over that time.  She told me 'No.'  I asked her why I was viewed as a slightly left liberal type back then but now I am some sort of Alt-Right Nazi...she didn't have an answer.

Side note:  She was a feminist back in the 80s when she was in college and even she thinks these people are fucked in the head...of course maybe she can just recognize that stuff since she works in the mental health field.

Quote from: Dr. Benton Quest;1083830That describes me.  I'm pretty much center-left.

Although if I tell my old gaming group that I got kicked out of a forum for not being liberal enough, they would laugh their ass off.  They are all died in the wool conservatives and I'm the dirty hippy.

That's because you are probably an actual 'Liberal' as opposed to a 'Progressive'...they seem to get conflated a lot.

Quote from: sureshot;1083811Apparently according to RPG.net we are the bad guys when it comes to forums. They have bi-partisan mods, ones who not only shut down threads with made up imaginary terms. Insult posters for trying to hear both sides of the story yet also block them just before they insult them. Have turning the site into one giant leftist fully woke narrative of a website where no one is allowed to post if they think differently. We are the worst place.

Voros remember snitches get stitches

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/sjg-offering-partial-refunds-and-continuing-to-work-with-bill-webb-see-redtext-in-post-163.844606/page-20



Remember though we are the much worse than them when it comes to rpg forums. You were banned with the use of an imaginary purelly rpg.net invented terms. We are bad because we don't bend over backwards to indulge in whatever current narrative is in vogue over at that cesspool.

Thank you for standing up for us here at the site. Though be careful because you did that you are know in the rpg.net mods bad graces. They will use any excuse if not possibly perma ban you for defending this site.

I thought Voros didn't hang out here anymore...

One of the most disturbing things in that thread (to me at least) is in the last post on that page. (post #200)
It isn't the post itself...it is the user's by-line/status..."socially engineered"

What kind of mentally-diseased, sad excuse for a human being would use that as a tag line in anything other than a humorous way...

Are they actually proud that the collective has told them how to think??

Voros was banned here - unfairly I think, he was no Biscuit. He's understandably sore.

I see from that rpgnet link that Pundit provides rpgsiters with Blackjack and hookers, presumably in a sub forum. I was not aware - could someone give me the access code please?

Quote from: S'mon;1083851Voros was banned here - unfairly I think, he was no Biscuit. He's understandably sore.

I must have missed the ban.  I just hadn't seen him in a long time.

Quote from: S'mon;1083851I see from that rpgnet link that Pundit provides rpgsiters with Blackjack and hookers, presumably in a sub forum. I was not aware - could someone give me the access code please?

I am sure they said that like it was a bad thing. :D

Quote from: S'mon;1083851Voros was banned here - unfairly I think, he was no Biscuit. He's understandably sore.

I see from that rpgnet link that Pundit provides rpgsiters with Blackjack and hookers, presumably in a sub forum. I was not aware - could someone give me the access code please?

Greetings!

Hell yeah, my friend! Don't be hide'in out on me, now. You gotta share, damnit! Blackjacks and Hookers! Woot! OOH RAH!:D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: moonsweeper;1083855I must have missed the ban.  I just hadn't seen him in a long time.



I am sure they said that like it was a bad thing. :D

Greetings!

LOL! Hey Moonsweeper!!!! Yeah, you know they didn't mean it as a compliment!

God, these people over there...honestly, they sound worse than someone's mom for God's sake. They're all whining and shrill, clucking their tongues at us like we're a bunch of terrible neanderthals.

Can you imagine what these folks are like at a party? Where there's lots of booze flowing, cigars being smoked everywhere, hot women wiggling about everywhere like they're barefoot on Georgia asphalt in summer. Some folks watching porn on a big screen. Loud, crazy music. Girls outside on the patio taking jello shots as they get shaken upside down. Women shrieking and giggling everywhere. Smoking hot women all decked to the nines, smoking in little groups. Other women, half naked, guzzling shots of tequila, dancing on top of the tables, shaking their asses everywhere. Here and there, couples making out. Other rooms locked up from people doing their thing. Laughter and screaming everywhere.

Geesus. All that sex and misogyny, all that awful "harassment" going down. So many people laughing and having fun. All the alcohol and people smoking like crazy.

I can't see them having any fun in a place like that. LOL.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Ahem.

If you're not aware of the ongoing drama regarding a former Funimation Studios voice actor by the name of Vic Mignogna (who also plays Captain James T. Kirk in Star Trek Continues, it's understandable.  However, it is about to blow up.  Here is a good article on what has happened:

https://variety.com/2019/gaming/news/vic-mignogna-sues-funimation-1203193225/

...what this has to do with this thread, and the price of Tea in China is this:

Nick Reikeita is an attorney in Minnesota, who has a youtube channel where he covers legal matters and discusses them so that mere mortals can understand.  He's also a gaming nerd, who plays 40k, etc.  He's been watching this (and other legal cases) very closely, and recommended attorney Ty Beard (who, in addition to being a lawyer in Texas is an OG gamer and actually created the wargame A Fist Full of TOWs).  Ty has been in very close contact with Nick and gone on streams with him to discuss the aspects of the case he can.  They're very dedicated to protecting Vic and getting him his pound of flesh from the people who ran him out of his career, and out of the industry altogether.

Beard's law firm has officially filed suit against Funimation Studios and several people for defaming Vic; the paperwork was filed yesterday so it's official, so they could fully discuss it on stream last night (they meaning Reikeita and Beard).  During the stream, Ty Beard said he had a "special announcement", and when he said what it was I knew instantly what was going on.  A case that they said was almost identical to the Vic Mignogna lawsuit, is happening in Texas, Ty Beard is representing the Plaintiffs who are, and I quote "a Table Top gaming company" that has been defamed.  Except, Ty Beard stated, it would go a LOT faster because there's a LOT more evidence.  Now if you've followed the Mignogna case, you know that there is a shitton of evidence (for example, 400 tweets and that's just to start) against the defendants in the lawsuit.  Again, that's only to start!

Ty Beard stated last night (and I will link to the stream and try to get a time stamp) that the table top gaming company defamation suit that is coming is more open and shut!

So what this has to do with Steve Jackson Games, and this situation is: I think SJG is getting ready to sue Jessica Price and associated individuals and I cannot fucking wait for the shoe to drop.

Here's last night's stream:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzP7TdTZHq8

Skip up to 1:48:51

It's either Stacy Dellaforino, or Jessica Price.  I hope it's BOTH OF THEM.  Both.  Of Them.  I hope they get fucking dragged out kicking and screaming.  Fuck both of those harpies.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1083869Ahem.

If you're not aware of the ongoing drama regarding a former Funimation Studios voice actor by the name of Vic Mignogna (who also plays Captain James T. Kirk in Star Trek Continues, it's understandable.  However, it is about to blow up.  Here is a good article on what has happened:

https://variety.com/2019/gaming/news/vic-mignogna-sues-funimation-1203193225/

...what this has to do with this thread, and the price of Tea in China is this:

Nick Reikeita is an attorney in Minnesota, who has a youtube channel where he covers legal matters and discusses them so that mere mortals can understand.  He's also a gaming nerd, who plays 40k, etc.  He's been watching this (and other legal cases) very closely, and recommended attorney Ty Beard (who, in addition to being a lawyer in Texas is an OG gamer and actually created the wargame A Fist Full of TOWs).  Ty has been in very close contact with Nick and gone on streams with him to discuss the aspects of the case he can.  They're very dedicated to protecting Vic and getting him his pound of flesh from the people who ran him out of his career, and out of the industry altogether.

Beard's law firm has officially filed suit against Funimation Studios and several people for defaming Vic; the paperwork was filed yesterday so it's official, so they could fully discuss it on stream last night (they meaning Reikeita and Beard).  During the stream, Ty Beard said he had a "special announcement", and when he said what it was I knew instantly what was going on.  A case that they said was almost identical to the Vic Mignogna lawsuit, is happening in Texas, Ty Beard is representing the Plaintiffs who are, and I quote "a Table Top gaming company" that has been defamed.  Except, Ty Beard stated, it would go a LOT faster because there's a LOT more evidence.  Now if you've followed the Mignogna case, you know that there is a shitton of evidence (for example, 400 tweets and that's just to start) against the defendants in the lawsuit.  Again, that's only to start!

Ty Beard stated last night (and I will link to the stream and try to get a time stamp) that the table top gaming company defamation suit that is coming is more open and shut!

So what this has to do with Steve Jackson Games, and this situation is: I think SJG is getting ready to sue Jessica Price and associated individuals and I cannot fucking wait for the shoe to drop.

Here's last night's stream:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzP7TdTZHq8

Skip up to 1:48:51

It's either Stacy Dellaforino, or Jessica Price.  I hope it's BOTH OF THEM.  Both.  Of Them.  I hope they get fucking dragged out kicking and screaming.  Fuck both of those harpies.

Greetings!

SWEET BABY GEESUS!:D Oh now this is what I'm talkin' about! See, Conservatives need to find ways to fight back against all of the true hate speech; the true slander, defamation; character assassination, and mob-justice that ruins businesses, livelihoods, and reputations. In a just land, if there is anyone anywhere that still loves justice, the wheels of retribution must be allowed to roll these scum back. The SJW's need to be dragged into court, given a wake up call and dressed the fuck down so hard like they're thunderstruck, and have majestic, ass-fucking fines and penalties applied to them like an 800 pound gorilla.

I say this, because in our otherwise litigious society, good up-bringing, manners, and a sense of mature respect and dignity have not seem to have been taught to these jackasses. Thus, this is the kind of ass-whooping they need, again, and again, and again--for individuals, and or companies and "organizations" like Contessa. In whatever vehicle they seek to hide behind, they need to have their ass fucking worked over. After enough of them get jackhammered like this, they'll start waking up to fucking reality again.

And if they don't? Then like one T-shirt at a Ren Faire I saw, Flogging Molly or something, saying then "The Floggings will continue."

Make them pay fucking hard in shame, money, fines and penalties, and jail time, and that should remind them they live in a civilized land--not some lawless sandbox where they can roam around, leading mobs to ruin people left and right with impunity. They need to be forced to PAY.

I hope they hang 'em high! Make them shriek and howl as the hammer comes down.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: S'mon;1083827I think most of us here are just soft left liberals who didn't change our views. If we were soft left in 1996, we're hard right now.

I can definitely see that. As a 90's teen I always held views that were, for the time left-leaning, and really never felt like I've shifted my views that much (maybe a little here and there on a case by case basis, but not really overall). But according to the NPC's at TBP I'm far alt-right. For my part I tend to think they're a mix of the certifiably insane and people too young to know better. So, whatever.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1083837It's political everywhere.  People are simply more honest about that fact here.

It's identity politics everywhere online it seems. I'd like to think that, IRL, the majority of us don't introduce ourselves starting with ideology. In the forums, though, the label seems to come first, and this site is certainly no different. Skipping the most obvious bitch-threads is the only way to have a discussion about everyone's common interest, gaming. The difference between this site and TBP, to me, is that it's pretty easy to ID the blowhard rants here. All you need do is read the thread title, and you know what to skip. TBP's agenda's are a bit more subtle. For instance, I know to skip the "De-colonizing D&D" thread on TBP, just as I know to ignore anything with "SJW" in the title here. You offer a competing view, you catch shit. As far as whether it's more "honest" here, I would only offer that "honesty" is too often used as a rationale for relentless douche-baggery, because being a douche evidently makes some folks happy. I don't believe most of us are that douchey IRL. But you wouldn't know that, based only on what we see posted here (or in TBP, for that matter). Don't get me wrong--I'm guilty of it, too, more than once. But some folks seem only to engage with the e-world in one way, all the time. I don't know about everyone else, but, at this point, the constant, singular drumbeat of the same ol' shit has got me fatigued. When it comes to the game, I'll run with almost anyone. Because life's too short to be so angry all the time.

One interesting thing that I thought would be good to discuss is this little gem:

QuoteIt seems profoundly odd to me that, "Hey, let's not condone and support the harassment and assault of women," is considered controversial.

Is there anyone here that condones and supports the harassment and assault of women?

I think the main problem is the missing step in the causation chain that goes from:

Step 1: Boycott SJGs

Step 2: To be determined

Step 3: No more harassment and assault of women

Any thoughts?

Quote from: Shasarak;1083883Is there anyone here that condones and supports the harassment and assault of women?

No, but TBP has non-reality-based definitions of "harassment"  & "assault"

...and "women" :p

Quote from: Shasarak;1083883One interesting thing that I thought would be good to discuss is this little gem:



Is there anyone here that condones and supports the harassment and assault of women?

I think the main problem is the missing step in the causation chain that goes from:

Step 1: Boycott SJGs

Step 2: To be determined

Step 3: No more harassment and assault of women

Any thoughts?

Step 2 is: Slander SJG constantly on social media.

Quote from: cranebump;1083878It's identity politics everywhere online it seems. I'd like to think that, IRL, the majority of us don't introduce ourselves starting with ideology. In the forums, though, the label seems to come first, and this site is certainly no different. Skipping the most obvious bitch-threads is the only way to have a discussion about everyone's common interest, gaming. The difference between this site and TBP, to me, is that it's pretty easy to ID the blowhard rants here. All you need do is read the thread title, and you know what to skip. TBP's agenda's are a bit more subtle. For instance, I know to skip the "De-colonizing D&D" thread on TBP, just as I know to ignore anything with "SJW" in the title here. You offer a competing view, you catch shit. As far as whether it's more "honest" here, I would only offer that "honesty" is too often used as a rationale for relentless douche-baggery, because being a douche evidently makes some folks happy. I don't believe most of us are that douchey IRL. But you wouldn't know that, based only on what we see posted here (or in TBP, for that matter). Don't get me wrong--I'm guilty of it, too, more than once. But some folks seem only to engage with the e-world in one way, all the time. I don't know about everyone else, but, at this point, the constant, singular drumbeat of the same ol' shit has got me fatigued. When it comes to the game, I'll run with almost anyone. Because life's too short to be so angry all the time.

That's true.  My point about the honesty is that the stuff lurks everywhere.  Otherwise, you wouldn't need to decide which threads you want to visit by title.  I've avoided plenty of discussions here for the simple reason that I tend to mimic the tone as I find it, and some of the discussions, I don't want that tone associated with anything I post.  But I also don't care to post at places that pretend they moderate out the politics, but allow a relentless, unchallenged drumbeat implying I'm a Nazi.  Manners may be pretend politeness, but there's a point where the people faking it have to be called out or shunned, lest the whole thing collapse on itself.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1083886Step 2 is: Slander SJG constantly on social media.

Ha yeah, I would have rolled that in to Step 1.

Quote from: Shasarak;1083896Ha yeah, I would have rolled that in to Step 1.

You can definitely make a case for it, but I figured they would come in "high" first, you know, appear righteous and teary-eyed and ready to Stand Up For Virtue, and then if the opponent resists, doesn't genuflect or apologize, then out comes the slander (again, see the case of Vic Mignogna).  But yeah it could go hand in glove with step 1.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1083869...I think SJG is getting ready to sue...

Wow, do I hope you're right.  All this crap of internet-torches-and-pitchforks needs to have some consequences for the mob instigators.  They were finally dumb enough to take a swing at somebody with enough money for lawyers and who has actually beaten the federal government.  I may have to buy some Munchkin or GURPS stuff just on general principle now.

Quote from: S'mon;1083885No, but TBP has non-reality-based definitions of "harassment"  & "assault"

...and "women" :p

and "discussion"

Quote from: Almost_Useless;1083899Wow, do I hope you're right.  All this crap of internet-torches-and-pitchforks needs to have some consequences for the mob instigators.  They were finally dumb enough to take a swing at somebody with enough money for lawyers and who has actually beaten the federal government.  I may have to buy some Munchkin or GURPS stuff just on general principle now.

And honestly, it's time.  It's past time.  I can only think of a few cases where egregious behavior like this has faced real, true consequences (Melissa Click and the woman involved in getting a guy fired over his "dongles" joke at a developer's convention, and perhaps the Chick-fil-A guy).  Honestly the sooner, the messier, and the louder these people get shut up and shut down and shown that fake virtue signaling has consequences, the better to stanch this constant flood of bile from them that is ruining various hobbies and vocations.  If it could happen to a higher profile individual (a Zoe Quinn or Anita Sarkeesian) that'd be better, but for our little corner of the world I'll settle for Jessica Price or Stacey Dellaforino having to put their money where their mouth is.  They wanna talk the talk?  Then they'd best walk the walk.  They're entitled to their opinions, but they're not entitled to made-up facts that they then spread in public in an attempt to ruin, deplatform, and otherwise trash individuals or businesses.

Steve Jackson Games has successfully squared off against the Secret Service and FBI.  If they're the ones filing the suit, woe to those who have pissed them off.  Doubly so since Ty Beard is on the case.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1083869So what this has to do with Steve Jackson Games, and this situation is: I think SJG is getting ready to sue Jessica Price and associated individuals and I cannot fucking wait for the shoe to drop.

Here's last night's stream:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzP7TdTZHq8

Skip up to 1:48:51

Interesting... But the thing I don't get is that at 1:50:15 he says "this has been going on a much longer time..."
Isn't Stacy's problem with SJ Games a recent development? The earliest tweet I can see is on 13 April. That's 6 days ago.

Quote from: Aglondir;1083912Interesting... But the thing I don't get is that at 1:50:15 he says "this has been going on a much longer time..."
Isn't Stacy's problem with SJ Games a recent development? The earliest tweet I can see is on 13 April. That's 6 days ago.

Maybe he was referencing the fact that she has been doing this for quite a while, even if SJ Games just became a target a week ago?

Quote from: Aglondir;1083912Interesting... But the thing I don't get is that at 1:50:15 he says "this has been going on a much longer time..."
Isn't Stacy's problem with SJ Games a recent development? The earliest tweet I can see is on 13 April. That's 6 days ago.

Yeah...yeah that's right they did.  Huh.

Well, part of the Mignogna suit involves tortious interference (that is, starting a whisper campaign to try and get people booted out of work or conventions or whatever, basically interfering with a tort, a contract)...so I wonder if the length of time has to do with a behind closed doors attempt, with Stacy keeping her mouth shut until the 13th or so.  Y'know?  Note I'm not saying that's what happened, just speculating.

That's all this is on my part: speculation.

The attacks on Frog God Games have been going on for quite a while.  The youtube guy said they were waiting for a certain event to take place in the next few days.  If I had to guess, they're probably expecting someone to try to get them (SJ Games) kicked from an upcoming convention to show a provable loss of income.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1083914That's all this is on my part: speculation.

I guess we should all start using words like "alleged woke morons" a lot more.  =;0)

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1083869A case that they said was almost identical to the Vic Mignogna lawsuit, is happening in Texas, Ty Beard is representing the Plaintiffs who are, and I quote "a Table Top gaming company" that has been defamed.  Except, Ty Beard stated, it would go a LOT faster because there's a LOT more evidence.  Now if you've followed the Mignogna case, you know that there is a shitton of evidence (for example, 400 tweets and that's just to start) against the defendants in the lawsuit.  Again, that's only to start!

Ty Beard stated last night (and I will link to the stream and try to get a time stamp) that the table top gaming company defamation suit that is coming is more open and shut!

So what this has to do with Steve Jackson Games, and this situation is: I think SJG is getting ready to sue Jessica Price and associated individuals and I cannot fucking wait for the shoe to drop.

Here's last night's stream:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzP7TdTZHq8

Skip up to 1:48:51

It's either Stacy Dellaforino, or Jessica Price.  I hope it's BOTH OF THEM.  Both.  Of Them.  I hope they get fucking dragged out kicking and screaming.  Fuck both of those harpies.

Best news I've heard all year

Wait

What the Fuck?

- Ed C.

Isn't Bill Webb a lawyer and/or judge?  Probably not a person you want to mess with.

I think that's Clark Peterson of Necromancer Games and Legendary Games.  He's a judge in Idaho.

Quote from: Almost_Useless;1083922I think that's Clark Peterson of Necromancer Games and Legendary Games.  He's a judge in Idaho.

oh... I always get those two guys mixed up.

Quote from: Koltar;1083920Wait

What the Fuck?

- Ed C.

What what the fuck?  What part wasn't clear?

I wonder what will the reaction will be in RPG.net if Stacey, Price, or both get sued.

What amazes me about moderation is that people are allowed to publicly state someone is an alcoholic, a serial sexual harasser, an abuser or whatever crime against humanity is dreamed up. This is meant to be unquestioned and the horrible sins that were committed as assumed to be known by everyone.

If anyone questions that, they are trolling. No actual evidence is provided other than a link to a 2 year old allegation. They make claims about the need for him to be punished when there is a clear statement from his company that it was investigated and there were consequences.

There are zero examples given and even the original incident there are no real details other than the admission that he did not act well.

That is enough to cause a mob to rise up and for the mods to feed that fire.

The thread on TotalCon is equally silly with preaching about the policy that is needed when 30 seconds to click and read will show that they already have a good policy. He attended this year as a guest of honor and nothing happened other than people having fun gaming.

It baffles me that people who are intelligent enough to write posts are so illogical and do not see the toxic environment they are creating.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1083929What amazes me about moderation is that people are allowed to publicly state someone is an alcoholic, a serial sexual harasser, an abuser or whatever crime against humanity is dreamed up. This is meant to be unquestioned and the horrible sins that were committed as assumed to be known by everyone.

If anyone questions that, they are trolling. No actual evidence is provided other than a link to a 2 year old allegation. They make claims about the need for him to be punished when there is a clear statement from his company that it was investigated and there were consequences.

There are zero examples given and even the original incident there are no real details other than the admission that he did not act well.

That is enough to cause a mob to rise up and for the mods to feed that fire.

The thread on TotalCon is equally silly with preaching about the policy that is needed when 30 seconds to click and read will show that they already have a good policy. He attended this year as a guest of honor and nothing happened other than people having fun gaming.

It baffles me that people who are intelligent enough to write posts are so illogical and do not see the toxic environment they are creating.

Threat narratives, especially ones involving women, are quite potent. They bypass the rational part of the brain and go right for the animal instincts.

Quote from: Shasarak;1083883One interesting thing that I thought would be good to discuss is this little gem:



Is there anyone here that condones and supports the harassment and assault of women?

I think the main problem is the missing step in the causation chain that goes from:

Step 1: Boycott SJGs

Step 2: To be determined

Step 3: No more harassment and assault of women

Any thoughts?

PROTEC WAMMEN!

At the risk of repeating myself, it's a threat narrative. This is all old school sexist chivarly under a (sometimes very thin) cloak of progressivism.

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/sjg-offering-partial-refunds-and-continuing-to-work-with-bill-webb-see-redtext-in-post-163.844606/page-22#post-22540857

Man, getting caught up. That thread is hotter than a two dollar gun.

*Waves to the RPG.net crowd!*

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1083933https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/sjg-offering-partial-refunds-and-continuing-to-work-with-bill-webb-see-redtext-in-post-163.844606/page-22#post-22540857

Man, getting caught up. That thread is hotter than a two dollar gun.

*Waves to the RPG.net crowd!*

Did anyone else notice that one of the reasons for the ban of Dr. Benton Quest was a post he made in 2012.  2012.

Do you think they have a list, or do they just troll through all of your posts until they find something "problematic" like questioning group think.

Two bans in one page of a single thread.  I think we have it better here at the theRPGsite.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1083935Two bans in one page of a single thread.  I think we have it better here at the theRPGsite.

It reminds me of the old joke about Navy aviation and USAF aviation; in Navy aviation there's this very thick volume of NATOPS that outlines everything you can't do while flying.  In the USAF there's an equally sized USAFE volume that outlines everything you're allowed to do.

The point is, there's very very little you can do to catch a ban here.  I think it's using Power Word: Real Name (doxing) and creating sock puppet accounts and that's about it.  Maybe "I created this account just to fuck with this person and nothing else" admissions.

Quote from: Aglondir;1083912Interesting... But the thing I don't get is that at 1:50:15 he says "this has been going on a much longer time..."
Isn't Stacy's problem with SJ Games a recent development? The earliest tweet I can see is on 13 April. That's 6 days ago.

I can find a tweet by Stacy going back to April 2nd attacking SJG. This has been brewing for almost 3 weeks now I'd say.

https://mobile.twitter.com/StacyRex/status/1113133400024469504

Quote from: wmarshal;1083937I can find a tweet by Stacy going back to April 2nd attacking SJG. This has been brewing for almost 3 weeks now I'd say.

https://mobile.twitter.com/StacyRex/status/1113133400024469504

Her twitter is a dumpster fire. I can't believe the shit she says.

Quote from: Jason Coplen;1083943Her twitter is a dumpster fire.

Nah, Those are just pictures of Notre Dame :p

Holy moly.

(https://66.media.tumblr.com/921521487f84f8623c921f6502ad73df/tumblr_pq96owwHg21xcdgeso1_640.jpg)

Remember: this is the, er, person who wants to save gaming from itself. Yeah, right. No thanks.

So... I just did what common sense seemed to dictate, and went over to RPGNet. And asked what was the matter. And got myself an almost instant temp-ban.

For asking whether someone could sum up a 25-page thread in a reasonable fashion. After all, it's "only" about going after some of the leading companies in our business in a serious way.

https://ibb.co/RT0wkvW


That's... Remarkably stupid behavior if you are seriously in the game of gaining allies.

Hmph. Like I'm now positively predisposed to listen to any of that drama again.

Quote from: Rafael;1083947That's... Remarkably stupid behavior if you are seriously in the game of gaining allies.

One of the first rules to this game that I learned is that, if you say "you might want to go about this differently if you don't want to alienate potential allies", then that's "tone policing", which is, of course, a high crime.

Please, don't give TBP more traffic. :( They are like Camelot, a silly place. :)

Quote from: Melan;1083945Holy moly.

(https://66.media.tumblr.com/921521487f84f8623c921f6502ad73df/tumblr_pq96owwHg21xcdgeso1_640.jpg)

Remember: this is the, er, person who wants to save gaming from itself. Yeah, right. No thanks.

Jesus, what a vile fucking human being.
I note on another of her posts that she wants to be a "they/them" rather than a "her", but still insists on being called a woman. What the fuck, over?

Question: Is this Stacy person the same person as "DST" at RPGNet? I don't really know who's who, but looking at the person who started the SJG thread appears to have a habit of only ever posting in highly politically charged threads.

Quote from: Melan;1083945Holy moly.

(https://66.media.tumblr.com/921521487f84f8623c921f6502ad73df/tumblr_pq96owwHg21xcdgeso1_640.jpg)

Remember: this is the, er, person who wants to save gaming from itself. Yeah, right. No thanks.

Well. I suppose that means I am now an Official Enemy of Love and Gaming, and since I freelanced for WotC nearly twenty years ago, they need to formally disavow me if they don't want to be the next target. :)

I'm way ahead of the curve.  I've been boycotting SJG for years over their blatant abuse of Gurps and the fact that Munchkin is a shit game.  I also refuse to even think of buying TFT until they put it all into one book at a reasonable price.

Quote from: Rafael;1083947So... I just did what common sense seemed to dictate, and went over to RPGNet. And asked what was the matter. And got myself an almost instant temp-ban.

For asking whether someone could sum up a 25-page thread in a reasonable fashion. After all, it's "only" about going after some of the leading companies in our business in a serious way.

https://ibb.co/RT0wkvW


That's... Remarkably stupid behavior if you are seriously in the game of gaining allies.

Hmph. Like I'm now positively predisposed to listen to any of that drama again.

Then they wonder why they keep having a bad name in the rpg industry. Yet we are the bad guys when it comes to forums in the rpg industry.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1083958Jesus, what a vile fucking human being.
I note on another of her posts that she wants to be a "they/them" rather than a "her", but still insists on being called a woman. What the fuck, over?

Agreed and seconded. It's not just her though I have a few Facebook friends I'm debating dropping as it's all about "Nortre Dame burned but worse in the world" style posts. It's so fucking annoying imo.

Quote from: Melan;1083945(https://66.media.tumblr.com/921521487f84f8623c921f6502ad73df/tumblr_pq96owwHg21xcdgeso1_640.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/b1Vapu0.gif)

Quote from: goblinslayer;1083963I'm way ahead of the curve.  I've been boycotting SJG for years over their blatant abuse of Gurps and the fact that Munchkin is a shit game.  I also refuse to even think of buying TFT until they put it all into one book at a reasonable price.

I haven't boycotted them - I just ran out of things to buy. I actually bought physical copies of Gurps material, and then they decided it wasn't in their financial best interests to keep publishing printed books. I get why, but it effectively ended my Gurps-related purchases. I'm not really in the market for TFT and related material right now. Other priorities and all that.

Quote from: sureshot;1083964Then they wonder why they keep having a bad name in the rpg industry. Yet we are the bad guys when it comes to forums in the rpg industry.



Agreed and seconded. It's not just her though I have a few Facebook friends I'm debating dropping as it's all about "Nortre Dame burned but worse in the world" style posts. It's so fucking annoying imo.

I cut all my "woke" friends out of my life years ago. I just got so tired of being exposed to so much venom non-stop, all the time. Best decision I ever made. Not associating with them has made me a far less angry person overall.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1083953Please, don't give TBP more traffic. :( They are like Camelot, a silly place. :)

Sorry, can't do. I will try to approach everyone with an open-mind and give everyone the opportunity to show their true colors instead.

Nothing seems to be enough for TBP woke crowd. It's  not enough Phil apologized no SJgames and Steve himself must bend over backwards, kneeling, head first on the floor, exposing his throat he can be sacrificed on the bloodthirsty altar of vigilante SJWs. I have never ever seen such insanity and entitelement coming from adults in my life. Plenty of kids who suffer from the second not many sane adults. In any case  most of them act that way because they have an echo chamber.

There is too much concentration on woke here and not the actual issue.

This is a concentrated attack on one individual, Bill Webb. SJG is a side show, it is doing business with Bill Webb that is their problem, not anything in any SJG product.

I can buy concern about him attending a convention. The concern is misplaced, as the reported incident is incomplete and there is no other complaint about him except for drinking, but there is at least one report of an issue at one convention. I would argue that without a repeat incident or a track record of issues (and he has attended other conventions since then with no issue) that the concern is overblown, but women do get treated poorly often enough that there is no hand waving the issue away. I can also accept complaints about him being a "Guest of Honor" because of that complaint. I don't agree with it, but that is an opinion with some basis.

However, punishing him and his company does not meet a reasonable smell test and is just gatekeeping. The reasons cited in the thread are false. As a summary these are:

He is a repeated abuser/sexual harasser/sexual predator/commits assault

- no evidence of any repeat. Incident is reported as harassment, sexual harassment is assumed. There is a report of an assault but nothing more than that even though there is a claim of an injury to someone that intervened but no details on that. Even in the boycott Garycon attempt, the language used was stepped down. This is known to the moderators at the other site but there is zero moderation warnings about assumptions.

There were no consequences/punishments for the incident from his company

- False. One of the partners in the business publicly posted that they investigated it and changes were required. Companies are under no obligation to post specifics, but it is obvious that there are internal consequences to him and that it damaged his relationships within his company.

There were no changes in behavior by him, no apology, etc.

- false, from what I can tell. I have only met him in person twice (last two GaryCons) and there were a ton of publicly drunk people at the bar area and he was not one of them. When pressured about Guest of Honor at Gamehole Con and GaryCon, he stepped down without making a public fuss about it. He attended both Cons and even with a spotlight on him there were no incidents reported.

As a business, FGG has a long history of being inclusive. They were even lambasted for having an all woman team work on their last edition of their S&W rulebook. 5 minutes of research into their freelancers and longer term employees will show inclusiveness far ahead in time of what the latest demands for equality within the industry.

They also (from what I can tell) have a good reputation for paying their writers and artists. So they are a good business in an industry that has many problem children there. They were either the first or the second company to publish a module when the OGL was created and have decades of publishing background over multiple editions. They have steadily supported older style of play which is now back in the 5e rules (one of the reasons why it is so popular again).

The mods at the other site are not refuting exaggerations. They just did step in and remind everyone that social media campaign organizing and other such actions are not allowed, but there have been posts after the warning and no bans while concern trolling is an instant ban.

Again, I have little sympathy for Bill Webb for the consequences of acting poorly. In the brief conversation I had with him he did not dodge the fact that he could have acted better at all. I have not seen him saying otherwise in any thread or post. This is not someone that is unrepentant.

What is happening is that some people are obviously concern trolling for their cause and whipping up uninformed people that want to be supportive. People that know better are not being a voice of reason at all. There is no need to be overly concerned about the accused, there is no claim for special rights for him here, but there are clear lines and FGG is not one person. This is gatekeeping, pure and simple, directed against one man for reasons that have less and less to do with the incident and more and more about their cause.

Their cause is a good one. Making conventions safer for everyone is an excellent reason to advocate. Warring for social justice is good. We all need it, even if we all do not agree with all the definitions, I doubt that anyone here really is against it, just the actions and definitions used. I think their mods need to look hard in the mirror and check to see what they are sacrificing for this and if the facts are really as clear as they seem to think they are. Stopping a business deal between two companies in the RPG space only proves that bullying works, and if anyone already does not know that, then they have other issues. Don't buy the FGG TFT products if you are still bothered, but attacking another company that has a long track record of being good in the industry seems like a poor decision.

Quote from: Rafael;1083947So... I just did what common sense seemed to dictate, and went over to RPGNet. And asked what was the matter. And got myself an almost instant temp-ban.

For asking whether someone could sum up a 25-page thread in a reasonable fashion. After all, it's "only" about going after some of the leading companies in our business in a serious way.

https://ibb.co/RT0wkvW


That's... Remarkably stupid behavior if you are seriously in the game of gaining allies.

Hmph. Like I'm now positively predisposed to listen to any of that drama again.

Oh Zeea the Sellout Bitch.  You see she hated what was going on with Exalted 3rd edition.  She even came to this site to bitch about it a few times.  This all changed when Zeea was offered a moderator position and some other benefits.  Point is she betrayed the Exalted fan base and ultimately herself for what feeble little power she can get.

Very well said MP.


The mods and many of their woke brethren will never do any soul searching. Their site has become a joke in the hobby and instead of toning down the rhetoric they crank it up by a factor of 30. We are not allowed to try and be objective or try to see the other side of the issue. If not we are concern trolling or "it's  because your white and male what do you know" . Or worse only men behave inappropriately apparently  women never get drunk, act up or grope people ever.

The entire middle East will convert to Christianity  in droves before any mod at TBP does any soul searching.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1083979Oh Zeea the Sellout Bitch.  You see she hated what was going on with Exalted 3rd edition.  She even came to this site to bitch about it a few times.  This all changed when Zeea was offered a moderator position and some other benefits.  Point is she betrayed the Exalted fan base and ultimately herself for what feeble little power she can get.

I noticed that too. The type of person you never give any kind of power too. The hypocritical part is once she will step out of line she will whine and complain and not understand why those she betrayed want nothing to do with her ever again.

I suspect, Myrdin Potter, that Bill might sue these people so things are going to get real very quick.

Should have taken bets on the inevitable "now I feel dirty and need a new generic system (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/looking-for-yet-another-generc-point-build-system.844626/)" thread popping up in response to the lynch mob. At least EABA is getting some love in that thread, though.

Clearly the appropriate action is for them to buy as many GURPS books as they can and burn them.  They should crowd fund a complete buyout of all GURPS products.  There was a helpful thread here a while back where Phil listed all the books that are available to distributors by the case.  They should buy them out and burn them.  They should also offer to buy and burn all the copies they can get of a new edition of GURPS Vehicles should one be printed.  Also they should run a Patreon to purchase any reprints of GURPS enmass and burn them too.

I'm just sayin' I think it would be the morally correct way for the offended parties to take action is all.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1083546The really stupid thing about my supposed 'sealioning' is I suspect I more or less agree with these dip shits, I just literally don't understand what we are talking about and wanted to see something clear and uncoded before adding my own blather to the general chaos.

The problem is you wanted to see something clear and uncoded, which is the one thing they won't provide.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1083551One of the positives of the culture wars is that it's taught me that everybody has the potential to be an asshole, and that everyone thinks their intentions are justified.

Not sure about the last part, at least in the absolute.

Quote from: wmarshal;1083556Frog God Games has admitted to the harassment that occurred at PaizoCon with the statement:

https://www.froggodgames.com/library/?q=forum/response-frog-god-games-events-social-media

Shame the 'victim' requested their IM's be removed from that page.

Quote from: wmarshal;1083557At one point Stacy called for boycotting a kickstarter by Evil Hat Games because she thought it's owner (Fred Hicks) was slut-shaming minis by Kingdoms of Death. Later the Bundle of Holding tried to run a project by which the proceeds from selling Evil Hat product would benefit Contessa. When Fred found out he asked the Bundle of Holding to redirect the proceeds to a different charity, which they did. Admittedly, the Bundle of Holding could have done a better job of coordination and communication, but Stacy used the Bundle of Holding's mistake to declare it doubleplus ungood, and to castigate Fred Hicks for daring to remember that Stacy is a scorpion and will always sting you, always.

Good summary.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1083562The sjw use gaslighting, intimidation, and fear to compel their targets to submit to the will of sjw, whatever that may be at the moment, and has no actual basis in criminal, or civil law.

They do everything they accuse others of doing.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1083574It comes from a Wondermark comic, that caught on.

Keep in mind the hero of that story is the racist.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1083594Everyone else who asked for links to evidence or even a description of what happened, questioned the rationality of damning everyone and everything associated with a given person no matter how removed, etc. just got ordered to leave and were issued warnings.

The only thing worse than asking for evidence is providing it.

Quote from: Aglondir;1083608From the 1995 game Illuminati: New World Order by SJ Games:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3330[/ATTACH]

I sometimes wonder if that game would even be possible in current year.

Quote from: rgalex;1083673I like how they escalated Webb's 'crimes' over the course of the thread.  First he was a harasser, then a sexual harasser then a drunken sexual harasser, moved up to an unrepentant alcoholic and now he's a sexual abuser.

Darn, they were hoping you didn't notice that.

Quote from: Haffrung;1083534I love how these kooks had to invent a new word, "sealioning", to vilify the very act of challenging their assertions.

Every word they've invented (JAQing off, mansplaining, concern trolling, checking your privilege, etc) has been designed to dismiss assertions.

Quote from: wmarshal;1083537The victim of Bill's action had asked that the matter be closed.

Which one? Because the one he's accused of physically assaulting is not the same as the one he's accused of harassing.

Quote from: jeff37923;1083586I wonder if Stacy D. was in contact with Mandy Morbid and encouraged her to go after Zak S. It would weirdly fit the pattern of sociopathic behavior she's become known for.

Quote from: S'mon;1083592Yes, it was Stacey D who arranged the whole thing. That is public record.

Do you have a link to these records? Asking for a friend.

Quote from: wmarshal;1083804One irony in all this is that Stacy still promotes Frog God Games on her website //www.frivology.com/about-me with links to FGG and the product she helped create with them. (Archive at //www.archive.fo/t76cp in case of a later airbrush.)

Won't do her much good either way, as Froggy no longer lists the book for sale anyway (https://talesofthefroggod.com/swords-wizardry-complete-3rd-printing-0).

Quote from: Larsdangly;1083816I don't think a neutrally inclined person could say there is much difference in the quality of discussion between the worst threads here and at TBP.

The difference being that discussion is actually possible here.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1083869If you're not aware of the ongoing drama regarding a former Funimation Studios voice actor by the name of Vic Mignogna (who also plays Captain James T. Kirk in Star Trek Continues, it's understandable.

I'm close friends with people who've worked guest relations at these events, so it's right in my wheelhouse. Who knew anime voice acting would be the source of the first #MeToo lawsuit.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1083869Ty Beard stated last night (and I will link to the stream and try to get a time stamp) that the table top gaming company defamation suit that is coming is more open and shut!

Starting at the timestamp here (https://youtu.be/mzP7TdTZHq8?t=6587), a few key details are:

• It's a game company, not a convention.
• It's been going on much longer.
• The accused did not try to prove their innocence.
• The accuser's text messages 'prove' they're lying.
• The lawsuit will not be filed unless a specific 'trigger' event occurs.
• It's every bit as ridiculous as the "Jelly Bean" story, where Vic ate a bean signed by his accuser and said "now I can say I've eaten you".

Quote from: Shasarak;1083934Did anyone else notice that one of the reasons for the ban of Dr. Benton Quest was a post he made in 2012.  2012.

Do you think they have a list, or do they just troll through all of your posts until they find something "problematic" like questioning group think.

Yes. They do.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1083936there's very very little you can do to catch a ban here.  I think it's using Power Word: Real Name (doxing) and creating sock puppet accounts and that's about it.  Maybe "I created this account just to fuck with this person and nothing else" admissions.

Also Nazi dinosaurs.

Quote from: Melan;1083945Holy moly.

(https://66.media.tumblr.com/921521487f84f8623c921f6502ad73df/tumblr_pq96owwHg21xcdgeso1_640.jpg)

Remember: this is the, er, person who wants to save gaming from itself. Yeah, right. No thanks.

Good'ol Stacy "Notre Dame is a Hate Symbol" Dellorfano (https://archive.is/91IVa).

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1083974Sorry, can't do. I will try to approach everyone with an open-mind and give everyone the opportunity to show their true colors instead.

Well that's a lot of repeated Color Sprays to the face. :p Normally one would get tired...

Quote from: CarlD.;1083225It's an odd geek behavior to require a full explanation to be practically tortured from them line by line. The speed of online communication exacerbates this phenomena.

"Be indignant about this thing!"
"What thing?"
"This thing of so-and-so."
"What do you mean?"
"This one thing. And other stuff."
"What other stuff?

It should be a bannable offence.

Lurtch: you're worse than the Wokists. I hope next time you're masturbating to your midget scat porn you accidentally pick up the Deep Heat for lubricant.

When I read public statements like this that are offered as proof that there are many cases of bad behavior, it makes me wonder where reason has fled to.

From StacyRex's Twitter "I've seen a screenshot of the GaryCon Discord server and women warning other women that a man with Bill's description was hanging out drinking at the bar, hitting on women." They were not at GaryCon and they were not in the discord server, but they saw a screenshot. Yet somehow there is proof that the evil guy was doing it again.

No other details. Like the other claims that it has happened many times in the past but the victims had no clout or voice. Of course, they know because they are not an evil white man and everyone shares freely with them.

This is the quality of accusation being used whip up a frenzy.

In an earlier tweet they claim that Bill has handlers, but somehow these handlers are not there. They don't post what night this was, which is interesting as I know that the two main nights he was DMing to the wee hours of the morning.

Or it is complete BS.

I think if you go back to the Necromancer Games days, Bill Webb has hired a more diverse crew before it was the in and required thing than companies that have been trying have.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1083887But I also don't care to post at places that pretend they moderate out the politics, but allow a relentless, unchallenged drumbeat implying I'm a Nazi.  Manners may be pretend politeness, but there's a point where the people faking it have to be called out or shunned, lest the whole thing collapse on itself.

There were two posters banned over there for JAQ posts. The second one seemed legit. The poster did not know all the details concerning consequences of Webb's actions. Got accused of mitigating the man's actions. 7-day ban. No warning. So, yeah...it’s a heavy hand over there.

It's a sensitive subject, because a lot of boorish (and worse) behavior still gets overlooked. However, I'm not sure the unending recrimination does anyone much good. If the perp is incorrigible, fire away. But if someone makes a mistake, and their punishment runs along the forever track, then how can they ever be redeemed? On the whole, I think we have to remember that marginalized groups are just now pushing back because, previously, they weren't allowed. Some of that pushback is overzealous. But then, the same zealotry, one-sidedness, virtue signaling is here, too. It's just a different set of virtues, some of which are outdated. There's a middle ground, but screamers won't allow it.

Quote from: nDervish;1083951One of the first rules to this game that I learned is that, if you say "you might want to go about this differently if you don't want to alienate potential allies", then that's "tone policing", which is, of course, a high crime.

I'm starting to wrap my head around how the tactics of this conflict work; nothing of this seems very smart to me. Don't those misguided kids learn anything about the differences between effectful tactics and effective strategy, any more? :D So much noise, and so little substance to all of this.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1083979Oh Zeea the Sellout Bitch.

Just so this is put down in written form, in case this shit every hits the fan for me: As of 2019, I have around 200 posts on RPGNet - since 2011, I think. I have no concept who that person is or was, or what he or she represents. Now, I've obviously been following the thread a little bit further now, and I think that person is now playing the dogwhistle for people to commit some sort of misdemeanors. I have trouble to take that sort of rhetorics seriously; that's a number of very quick lawsuits waiting to happen, as you yourself have commented in another context already.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1083978This is a concentrated attack on one individual, Bill Webb.

What's a potential business side to this? - Would there be any? If Webb stepped away from FGG completely, what's the one thing that changes in a way that couldn't be substituted?

Bill Webb is the CEO and owner. From what I understand they run it more as a partnership, but he is the money guy.

Most of their products are sourced from freelancers or other partners. Bill occasionally writes something, but most is not his stuff.

He was admonished by his partners and from what I can tell has changed his behavior (public drinking to excess). That is a key demand from the other thread and it happened 2+ years ago. The continuing harassment of him and his business is personal and part of a cause.

The historical record is much more in his favor for hiring practices, payment, reputation, etc. Some make veiled references to more than just the Paizo con incident, but no examples or proof is ever offered and everyone is just to accept their stories. Stories backed up with amazing evidence like the post I just made above. Since the incident he has gone to cons and again, other than yelling in social media about what a bad man he is, nothing else other than his events are well attended and he is in demand as a DM.

He also was not disinvited as a special guest/guest of honor, he backed out himself rather than cause more issues for the con organizers.

I am not saying that there is not actually something else, but if you are going to go after the whole group, all the partners and freelancers, anyone that does business with them, I would hope that there is more than some anointed crusaders with claims of wrong doing behind it.

Quote from: cranebump;1084014There were two posters banned over there for JAQ posts. The second one seemed legit. The poster did not know all the details concerning consequences of Webb's actions. Got accused of mitigating the man's actions. 7-day ban. No warning. So, yeah...it's a heavy hand over there.

It's a sensitive subject, because a lot of boorish (and worse) behavior still gets overlooked. However, I'm not sure the unending recrimination does anyone much good. If the perp is incorrigible, fire away. But if someone makes a mistake, and their punishment runs along the forever track, then how can they ever be redeemed? On the whole, I think we have to remember that marginalized groups are just know pushing back because, previously, they weren't allowed. Some of that pushback is overzealous. But then, the same zealotry, one-sidedness, virtue signaling is here, too. It's just a different set of virtues, some of which are outdated. There's a middle ground, but screamers won't allow it.

Agree, except virtues are never out-dated.  Various pretenses of manners piggy-backed onto virtues in an attempt to gain some of the respect of the virtue?  Yeah, that's been happening since the dawn of time, and no crowd is entirely immune.  A zealot insisting on a particular kind of manners is pretty much a dead giveaway that such a dynamic is in place.  Call me crazy, but I think the virtues currently out of fashion are always the ones most in need of defense.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1083989Well that's a lot of repeated Color Sprays to the face. :p Normally one would get tired...

I'm a zen buddhist. ;)

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1083995When I read public statements like this that are offered as proof that there are many cases of bad behavior, it makes me wonder where reason has fled to.

Reason has given way to ambition. You cannot argue with (against) personal ambitions, that's why the Warsaw Pact lasted for as long as it did. Ambitions will find rationalizations, when necessary, to maintain hopes of fulfillment.

Quote from: Rafael;1084015Just so this is put down in written form, in case this shit every hits the fan for me: As of 2019, I have around 200 posts on RPGNet - since 2011, I think. I have no concept who that person is or was, or what he or she represents. Now, I've obviously been following the thread a little bit further now, and I think that person is now playing the dogwhistle for people to commit some sort of misdemeanors. I have trouble to take that sort of rhetorics seriously; that's a number of very quick lawsuits waiting to happen, as you yourself have commented in another context already.

Wait what?  Zeea is encouraging people to fuck with other people?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1083991"Be indignant about this thing!"
"What thing?"
"This thing of so-and-so."
"What do you mean?"
"This one thing. And other stuff."
"What other stuff?

It should be a bannable offence.

Lurtch: you're worse than the Wokists. I hope next time you're masturbating to your midget scat porn you accidentally pick up the Deep Heat for lubricant.

Keep your sexual fantasy to yourself please.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1084048Wait what?  Zeea is encouraging people to fuck with other people?

I am shocked.  Just shocked I tell you.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1084058I am shocked.  Just shocked I tell you.

I was hoping for more details.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1084061I was hoping for more details.

Yeah. I prefer to seperate the things TBP has actually done from the shit talking.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084017Bill Webb is the CEO and owner. From what I understand they run it more as a partnership, but he is the money guy.

Most of their products are sourced from freelancers or other partners. Bill occasionally writes something, but most is not his stuff.

[...]

I am not saying that there is not actually something else...

To also be clear about this, I have zero sympathy for Mr Webb, based on what I read about him online. A married man and a father who is a drinker and, at the very least, the kind of person that makes googly eyes at other women, is an asshole. Or, to use the words of a classic poet, the famous Nick Diaz of Stockton: "Where I come from, people like that get slapped."

But if this is really a coordinated action, then this has to go beyond the momentary outrage. What would happen if FGG went out of business? Who would buy it if it was sold, who could aspire to fill the void in the market - would there even be any? - Because it's certainly not looking as if the many, many fans of FGG would necessarily rush to carry their money to another publisher if the brand suddenly died; especially with the recent Kickstarter and the announced user license, the "Necrolands" are here to stay.

Not putting on my tinfoil hat just yet, just trying to get a feel for the situation. Also, I'm seriously considering to write Shannon Applecline an email over this; I only know the man from a brief exchange a few years back, but he didn't strike me as an idiot. Is he aware of what's going on there, and could activating him or Mr Allen help to defuse this situation? Has this been tried?

Quote from: Snowman0147;1084048Wait what?  Zeea is encouraging people to fuck with other people?

Not literally; but the signs he sends after another user asks where it's time to bring the "revolt" are certainly ambiguous enough for another moderator to step in and clarify. - Again, no beef with that guy, personally; reading that thread has been a rather bizarre experience. Not to misuse that analogy in this context, but all those people seem to undergo the psychological equivalent of what's in the mind of a drunk dude at a bar when he decides to try and pick up a fight.

I have to thank @thedungeondelver for turning me on to this Vic Mignogna thing. It's endless pages and videos of entertainment.

Waited with bated breath for SJG's reveal as the new plaintiff

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1083933*Waves to the RPG.net crowd!*

Waving is a micro-aggression!!

Only Jazz Hands are safe!

Quote from: Rafael;1084086To also be clear about this, I have zero sympathy for Mr Webb, based on what I read about him online. A married man and a father who is a drinker and, at the very least, the kind of person that makes googly eyes at other women, is an asshole. Or, to use the words of a classic poet, the famous Nick Diaz of Stockton: "Where I come from, people like that get slapped."

Are you a time traveler from the Victorian Era or a 12 year old?

Bars - especially hotel bars - are where adults drink and try to hook up with each other. That's why hookers hang out in hotel bars so the guys who didn't get lucky can instead pay for nookie. As for "married" people, they are in bars without their spouse to get some action because the 50% divorce rate doesn't come out of nowhere.

WTF are we trying to pretend Bill Webb's behavior is aberrant? Women and men get sloshed at bars and paw at each other. That's why alcohol is so popular. Nobody is paying $12 for a shot because of the bar decor.

Complaining about drunk behavior in any bar is retarded. Every adult woman knows WTF bars are for. Let's have the barest modicum of respect for women's intelligence. They go in bars to drink and get pawed by "hot guys". They're abundantly aware bars =/= Bible Study. "Hot" of course is subjective after a few drinks.

And "unwanted advances", uh...you're in a bar. American bars aren't English pubs, but even over there, the pub is a sloppy pawfest at 2am.

Personally, I don't like drunken behavior, so I don't hang out in bars and MAGICALLY somehow I never deal with drunks.

Quote from: Rafael;1084086To also be clear about this, I have zero sympathy for Mr Webb, based on what I read about him online. A married man and a father who is a drinker and, at the very least, the kind of person that makes googly eyes at other women, is an asshole. Or, to use the words of a classic poet, the famous Nick Diaz of Stockton: "Where I come from, people like that get slapped."

Quote from: Spinachcat;1084091Are you a time traveler from the Victorian Era or a 12 year old?

Bars - especially hotel bars - are where adults drink and try to hook up with each other. That's why hookers hang out in hotel bars so the guys who didn't get lucky can instead pay for nookie. As for "married" people, they are in bars without their spouse to get some action because the 50% divorce rate doesn't come out of nowhere.

WTF are we trying to pretend Bill Webb's behavior is aberrant? Women and men get sloshed at bars and paw at each other. That's why alcohol is so popular. Nobody is paying $12 for a shot because of the bar decor.

Complaining about drunk behavior in any bar is retarded. Every adult woman knows WTF bars are for. Let's have the barest modicum of respect for women's intelligence. They go in bars to drink and get pawed by "hot guys". They're abundantly aware bars =/= Bible Study. "Hot" of course is subjective after a few drinks.

Jesus H Christ, both of these posts are retrograde bullshit.

There's nothing wrong with getting drunk, even if you're married and a father. I have 4+ drinks in a sitting at least monthly. Sometimes at a bar, sometimes at home. Sometimes with my wife, sometimes with my buddies. Sometimes we have everybody over - friends, spouses, kids, dogs - and have a party where most of the adults get sloshed while the kids run around in a shouting pack until they collapse on a couch and watch a movie. This is considered perfectly normal in my social milieu (middle-class suburban Canada).

And bars today aren't places where people expect to get hit on. This isn't 1983. Men and women enjoy alcohol and the conviviality of bars. It isn't about sex. There is no expectation of being pawed at just because you're sitting at a table being served alcohol, and most women don't go to bars to get hit on. Last weekend I went to four or five taphouses and bars with a buddy of mine. We didn't hit on anybody, and nobody hit on us. A couple weeks before that I went out with my wife and two other couples to a craft beerhouse. I'd day the median age of the people at the bar was about 40. In addition to wine and craft beers, people were doing shooters. Everyone I saw left with the same people they came with.

Which isn't to say nobody at a convention or a hotel bar will flirt or make a pass at someone. But it's not an expectation, and people who are aggressive assholes about it have definitely stepped out of line and deserve to be thrown out. Women don't go to bars to be pawed at by "hot guys." Give your head a shake.

Yeah, as if the "drinking" part was the problem, not the "trying to cheat on his wife" part.

- Maybe that's Bill's problem: He is too postmodern for normal beta males to understand.' Cause a real alpha, he shows his superiority by stalking the rejected Naruto cosplayer. Particularly at a venue directly related to his own six-figure business, and particularly where as many people as possible know who he is. Just in case there was a chance his wife or his kids would miss out on this radiant statement he's making about to how much he really does respect them. - And all of this in the present sociopolitical climate, no less. "Modern day entrepreneurial"?

Seriously, though, I don't care where Webb decides to sheathe his dagger; I'm just saying, let's not forget that there could a universe where we would get to debate different stuff because this dude had been smarter. Not "more moral" or "more sober", just not this fucking stupid.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1084091Personally, I don't like drunken behavior, so I don't hang out in bars and MAGICALLY somehow I never deal with drunks.

The few times I go to a bar, it's really boring, and I'm usually out as soon as I'm done with whatever brought me there.

Still an assumption that the harassment was sexual in nature with the intention of ending up in bed with the target of the harassment.

 As for drinking, there were a lot of very drunk people in the bar this year at Gary Con. The con itself sells a glass that gives you free beer, so it is not like they are discouraging it. After midnight Friday and Saturday I did not see Bill Webb in the bar, he was not one of the very drunk people there when I passed through.

I enjoy a beer or two or a martini, but I hate being around very drunk people so I avoid bars when there are a lot of them there.

I was in a game that Bill was DMing on Saturday night and he was drinking some rye whiskey then, but over 5+ hours he had maybe 4 drinks. Since the average person gets rid of about 1 drink an hour, I doubt he was drunk from that.

So, again, maybe he has changed his behavior and amended his ways which is a big demand from the thread that this one is pointed at. But the people over there like to argue straw men arguments like how a con should be run when they did not attend and most have not run a con. With gems like demanding a harassment policy when there already is one.

Quote from: Haffrung;1084098And bars today aren't places where people expect to get hit on.

What fantasy world are you living in?

Quote from: Brad;1084137What fantasy world are you living in?

An affluent, young, Canadian city with loads of drinking establishments. The vast majority of people who go out to bars here never speak to anyone except the people they went with and maybe the server. These are the last three bars I've been to:

https://www.craftbeermarket.ca/calgary/southcentre

Mostly couples and groups of friends from work. Was clearing out by the time we left around 10:30. Didn't see anybody hitting on anyone.

http://www.thepointpub.com/

Lots of middle-aged people from the neighbourhood. There was a 50th birthday parting going on in the back. A couple guys in their early 20s played and sang while a table of middle-aged couples, presumably including their parents, cheered them on.

http://brokencity.ca/patio/

A dozen people chilling on a patio on a Sat afternoon. Nobody hitting on anyone.

Maybe it's the word 'bars' that people are having trouble with. Are you thinking nightclubs? Or are you guys teetotal 50-somethings living in bumfuck USA who don't actually have a social life, and get your ideas of how this stuff works from movies and vague memories of the 80s? I mean, Spinachcat admits he doesn't actually drink or go to bars, but he's an expert on bar social norms in 2019?

Unless a bar is recognized as a pick-up joint (and everybody knows which bars those are - there are about 4 of them out of 40 bars in my part of the city) people expect to be left the fuck alone to chill with their friends. In all three of those places I linked to, if a guy pawed at a woman he didn't know and hit on her, he'd get kicked out.

Greetings!

Haffrung, come on, my friend. If you are as experienced in bar-hopping as you say, then you realise there are different types of bars, nightclubs, danceclubs, lounges, and so on. They cater to different demographics, have entirely different "vibes" and while often very distinct between each establishment, some of them change dramatically based on what night you go there.

And yes, some indeed are very much "Meat Markets"--and others certainly are not meat markets, instead catering to a distinctly older crowd, as well as families. Not kids of course, but social family gatherings, definitely not meat markets. However, while the contrasts between these two examples are enormous--lots and lots of other places fall very much in between, and as i alluded to, they chameleon-change depending on the night. Most of them are definitely party-friendly, and hook-up friendly. Well-dressed professionals don't tend to fuck in the bathrooms or bang each other outside in the parking lot like the kids often do--but make no mistake, if the bar is bringing in lots of singles that are 35 and up, even if they're well-dressed professionals and looking all sharp, there's a fuck load of sex going on. Lots of pawing and kissing, and they jet out the door or go upstairs in the case of some party-friendly hotels. Sex and fucking is everywhere, my friend.

Hell, maybe that's a big cultural distinction between Canada and America. I could go to a dozen clubs within a 30 minute drive, all catering to 30 and up, where the drinking and hook-ups would be flying like crazy. Maybe it's the Latin effect, as opposed to often more straight-laced white folks. The Latinas dance and drink like there's no tomorrow. Loud music, screaming, whole packs of women giggling and shrieking, go outside to smoke and get your groove on. Fucking stuff goes on everywhere. The men, of course, typically white and hispanic in such environments, hang with each other, or make circuits of the place, drinking, dancing, and pawing the women. Hell, the women do lots of pawing, too, man. I'm not exaggerating. It's easy; it's everywhere; it's the norm, rather than the exception.

I would have to google and find some prim, proper family place that didn't have lots of smoking hot Latina women grinding the fuck out of you on the dance floor, or snuggling up to you at the bar, or in the dark corner at a table, taking turns drinking shots of tequila, and going outside to smoke, then go back to the dance floor as the DJ puts on some smooth tunes. I'm just telling, you, my friend. I've been into some places like you're talking about, but I'd say they are definitely a minority type of establishment. Also, in some ways, there's more places like that, but they tend to close at 2100 or 2200. The places that are open past 2300 though? Oh yeah, brother. Non-stop hot women, all looking to have a great time, man.

Cities like Santa Ana, Orange, Fullerton, Anaheim, Irvine, Newport Beach, Costa Mesa, Huntington Beach, Lakewood, and Long Beach, all very large cities, I've lived there for years, and they are full of the kind of clubs and bars I mentioned. Very much the norm, I have to say.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Haffrung;1084141An affluent, young, Canadian city with loads of drinking establishments. The vast majority of people who go out to bars here never speak to anyone except the people they went with and maybe the server. These are the last three bars I've been to:

https://www.craftbeermarket.ca/calgary/southcentre

Mostly couples and groups of friends from work. Was clearing out by the time we left around 10:30. Didn't see anybody hitting on anyone.

http://www.thepointpub.com/

Lots of middle-aged people from the neighbourhood. There was a 50th birthday parting going on in the back. A couple guys in their early 20s played and sang while a table of middle-aged couples, presumably including their parents, cheered them on.

http://brokencity.ca/patio/

A dozen people chilling on a patio on a Sat afternoon. Nobody hitting on anyone.

Maybe it's the word 'bars' that people are having trouble with. Are you thinking nightclubs? Or are you guys teetotal 50-somethings living in bumfuck USA who don't actually have a social life, and get your ideas of how this stuff works from movies and vague memories of the 80s? I mean, Spinachcat admits he doesn't actually drink or go to bars, but he's an expert on bar social norms in 2019?

Unless a bar is recognized as a pick-up joint (and everybody knows which bars those are - there are about 4 of them out of 40 bars in my part of the city) people expect to be left the fuck alone to chill with their friends. In all three of those places I linked to, if a guy pawed at a woman he didn't know and hit on her, he'd get kicked out.

I'm having trouble with the word "bars"..? Like, what? Last bar I went to was next to my university, and there were plenty of girls getting hit on and tons of social interaction. So, yeah, maybe you're just going to places with anti-social rubes.

Quote from: SHARK;1084142Greetings!

Hell, maybe that's a big cultural distinction between Canada and America. I could go to a dozen clubs within a 30 minute drive, all catering to 30 and up, where the drinking and hook-ups would be flying like crazy. Maybe it's the Latin effect, as opposed to often more straight-laced white folks. The Latinas dance and drink like there's no tomorrow. Loud music, screaming, whole packs of women giggling and shrieking, go outside to smoke and get your groove on. Fucking stuff goes on everywhere. The men, of course, typically white and hispanic in such environments, hang with each other, or make circuits of the place, drinking, dancing, and pawing the women. Hell, the women do lots of pawing, too, man. I'm not exaggerating. It's easy; it's everywhere; it's the norm, rather than the exception.

Mmmmm no. There are plenty of hot nightclubs in Hamilton, and Toronto that i know of, and I have friends from Quebec that used to visit Miami Beach and complain about how lame it was compared to the nightclubs in Quebec. I expect a lot of it is in the demographics. Go to a college town in Canada or out to the frontier and the bars will be wild, and hopping, I'm sure there are some quiet clubs as well. Haven't been to Calgary though, so am not able to confirm on whether their are meat market style bars, and nightclubs there.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084122Still an assumption that the harassment was sexual in nature with the intention of ending up in bed with the target of the harassment.

I understand where you're coming from, but I think we don't need to defend Mr Webb in order to criticize what is going on with the SJW crowd. I think we're missing the point if we micro-analyze what might or might not have constituted "appropriate drinking", or "appropriate flirting", or whatever. - That's for Mr Webb to do, and if he has chosen not to do it, then we're not at fault for assuming that the accusing party is, in principle, truthful in their general allegations.

The conclusions the SJW crowd is drawing are what's worth debating and rebuking, as you say it below:

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084122So, again, maybe he has changed his behavior and amended his ways which is a big demand from the thread that this one is pointed at. But the people over there like to argue straw men arguments like how a con should be run when they did not attend and most have not run a con. With gems like demanding a harassment policy when there already is one.

As long as the general situation is okay, we don't need to get back to the formula whenever something unpleasant and avoidable happens. That's why we're supposed to be a community - because we, as a group, can make this right even if things go wrong.

Like in this case: So, at worst, this was a bar fight. It is neither exemplary for the character of the people involved, from what I gather, nor is it an example of what usually happens as that convention. So, common sense dictates that this is reprimanded, sure - but in proportion to the misconduct committed! And that has been done already. If it's not enough, as the SWJs are stating, then I wonder what sort of punishment they want to reserve for people who do the really reprehensible stuff. And bar fights, while, not nice, aren't that.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1084146Mmmmm no. There are plenty of hot nightclubs in Hamilton, and Toronto that i know of, and I have friends from Quebec that used to visit Miami Beach and complain about how lame it was compared to the nightclubs in Quebec. I expect a lot of it is in the demographics. Go to a college town in Canada or out to the frontier and the bars will be wild, and hopping, I'm sure there are some quiet clubs as well. Haven't been to Calgary though, so am not able to confirm on whether their are meat market style bars, and nightclubs there.

Greetings!

Hey there GameDaddy! Oh yeah, there are clubs that cater to college kids there in Orange County, like some clubs in the city of Fullerton; as well as Huntington Beach and Seal Beach. These cities are all very large, though, GameDaddy. The nightlife is definitely primed for *adults*, and as I mentioned, there's a huge number of places that particularly cater to people over 30 years old, and I have to say, Latin is it. Hispanic music, Hispanic women everywhere. And the Hispanic women love looking hot, and getting their groove on. College girls that are 21-24 got nothing on the Hispanic women that are 30 and up. *Nothing*:D All of these bars and clubs playing Hispanic music, pop music, 80's music, Reggeaton, and so on. There's dozens and dozens of clubs that are full of sex and booze. That's what people are there for. "Having fun with friends" is something of a side benefit, but the main goal is to find some hot thing. Goddamn the Latina's love to strut their stuff and move on the dancefloor. It's a rotating circuit of fun; dance floor; up to the bar; go to table and drink, laugh, chat, and flirt; go to patio to smoke and nibble; back to the dance floor; rinse and repeat until it's time to rock. These clubs always have the music pumping fierce; sometimes they also have live bands. It's non-stop action and fun. :D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I love how these threads get twisted and people forget the comments that were actually made only a few posts back.

Here's what Spinachcat, a non-drinker who doesn't go to bars, wrote:

QuoteComplaining about drunk behavior in any bar is retarded. Every adult woman knows WTF bars are for. Let's have the barest modicum of respect for women's intelligence. They go in bars to drink and get pawed by "hot guys". They're abundantly aware bars =/= Bible Study.

The assertion was that when women go to bars (not nightclubs, or pick-up bars, but all bars) they should expect to be hit on and pawed. And the bar in question, to get this thread back on track, was a hotel bar at a gaming convention. Do you guys really think that the only reason for a woman to go to a hotel bar at a gaming convention is to get hit on and picked up, and she should expect to be pawed at by drunken dudes?

I stand by my assertion that 90 per cent of women going to 90 per cent of bars* have no intention of meeting someone to hook up with. Which isn't to say it doesn't happen. It's to say it isn't the default. Going out to drink is a normal, common activity for adults young and old, married and single. My 70-something parents go out to a bar a couple times a months, for fuck's sake.

It would be illuminating if the people posting here included how often and how recently they go to bars. I have a feeling there's an inverse correlation between how often they go out and how likely they are to think bars are all debauched pick-up joints.

*For the purposes of this statement, by bars I mean any establishment that gets most of its income from alcohol sales.

So, my contention remains why we're litigating this case here at all. I don't know Mr. Webb, I don't know the accuser. I have read vague hints about what happened. I have read claims that Mr. Webb admitted to it and that the whole thing is verified. What the people at rpg.net don't get is that it's not verified TO ME because it hasn't been verified BY ME personally (because I am not going to rely on anyone else's word here) and I have no intention of doing so. The whole thing is a giant distraction to what I am really interested in and one big soap opera which for me only creates dissatisfaction with the online RPG community in its entirety. I wanna talk games, not what game designers do outside of game design.

The only reason I posted in the rpg.net thread was to get a sense of the forum culture (because I won't blindly believe what anybody here claims about it either). And I did, with a prompt warning received, so that's that. And that's because, unlike the behaviour of some random designer (Mr. Webb) at the other end of the world, the overall mentality in the more significant online RPG forums is directly relevant to me.

Quote from: Haffrung;1084154The assertion was that when women go to bars (not nightclubs, or pick-up bars, but all bars) they should expect to be hit on and pawed. And the bar in question, to get this thread back on track, was a hotel bar at a gaming convention. Do you guys really think that the only reason for a woman to go to a hotel bar at a gaming convention is to get hit on and picked up, and she should expect to be pawed at by drunken dudes?

I stand by my assertion that 90 per cent of women going to 90 per cent of bars* have no intention of meeting someone to hook up with. Which isn't to say it doesn't happen. It's to say it isn't the default. Going out to drink is a normal, common activity for adults young and old, married and single. My 70-something parents go out to a bar a couple times a months, for fuck's sake.

Word. For myself, been to plenty of bars when I was single. Never pawed at, much less disrespected a woman, even at the so-called "meat markets." It's classless. Plus, my momma woulda beat my ass if I had, because a gentleman doesn't act that way. My buddies were the same way. It's bullshit behavior.

No one needs to prove anything to me in particular. I depend on con organizers to make decisions and the right start if there is an accusation is to remove the accused from the site of the accusation is even reasonable. I had to investigate workplace fraud years ago earlier in my career and worked in the same team that investigated sexual harassment claims (that was HR, I am in Finance). I quickly went from assuming everyone was innocent to suspend them and investigate with an almost certain chance that the accusation is true enough that you don't want the accused working at your company anymore.

There is a huge difference between removing someone from a con and organizing an Internet hate mob to hound someone afterwards. Especially when the ones whipping up the mob are suspect at best. There is a big jump from kicking someone out of a con and trying to ban them from the industry and holding everyone guilty by association.

I am not a huge believer in the theory that we are all part of a community, but safer cons and play areas are good for all of us. Threats to the community are not just missing stairs, they are mobs without reason and people that know better but enough the tiny rush of power they get from the mob starting. They are meaner and worse for the industry than the ill they claim to fight. There is nothing about safety for women in the attack on SJG, some freelancers writing a conversion to TFT has nothing to do with an incident at Paizo Con 2 years ago. It is about people that need to do it for their own bad reasons.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1084018Agree, except virtues are never out-dated.  Various pretenses of manners piggy-backed onto virtues in an attempt to gain some of the respect of the virtue?  Yeah, that's been happening since the dawn of time, and no crowd is entirely immune.  A zealot insisting on a particular kind of manners is pretty much a dead giveaway that such a dynamic is in place.  Call me crazy, but I think the virtues currently out of fashion are always the ones most in need of defense.

I wouldn't disagree. But I'm not sure the attack is a big as it seems. Nor am I convinced that such virtues are entirely out of fashion. Feel like volume accounts for much of it. Or maybe some folks just feel threatened (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/03/perceptions-discrimination-muslims-christians/519135/). No one's making it literally impossible for me to live according my values. Just sound and fury, man. Sound and fury. The web gave people a chance to vent, and they took it.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1084091And "unwanted advances", uh...you're in a bar. American bars aren't English pubs, but even over there, the pub is a sloppy pawfest at 2am.

Almost none of our pubs are open to 2am. If we're lucky they may be open to midnight these days.

Strangers flirting doesn't seem to happen very much in the English pubs I know (not that I'm out late these days). Did happen last time I was out with a friend in an Edinburgh bar though, couple Scottish ladies flirted with us, which was nice, not traumatic at all. :)

Quote from: Rafael;1084147If it's not enough, as the SWJs are stating, then I wonder what sort of punishment they want to reserve for people who do the really reprehensible stuff.

Really reprehensible stuff is outside their experience. They're middle-classed.

Quote from: Dr. Benton Quest;1083822Well, we'll see.  I've been reading rpg.net for over 20 years.  I never posted much.  In recent years I've hedged my bets and didn't post because if I had an opinion that differed I was pretty sure it wouldn't go down well.

I'll see how it goes. It might just be I'm not a good fit over there anymore.  Shame really.  I met my local gaming group through rpg.net and have fond memories from there.

I feel your pain. I started reading RPGnet back when it was nothing but reviews and articles. I posted God-knows-how-many reviews there. I even kept up their IRC chatroom when they abandoned it.

I can't stand the place anymore. The Tangency cesspool finally overflowed and filled up the rest of the site. Which is a damn shame.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1084177Really reprehensible stuff is outside their experience. They're middle-classed.

Besides, turn over your average internet SJW and you've got a more-than-even-chance of finding a degenerate anyway.  Normal, non-controversial (to anyone else) behavior such as flirting, or so on, that's a sin to them.  But the bulk of them will defend degenerate behavior, or at least engage in hypocrisy about it.

Quote from: Dan Davenport;1084184I feel your pain. I started reading RPGnet back when it was nothing but reviews and articles. I posted God-knows-how-many reviews there. I even kept up their IRC chatroom when they abandoned it.

I can't stand the place anymore. The Tangency cesspool finally overflowed and filled up the rest of the site. Which is a damn shame.

That was going to happen the day a critical mass was reached and you had your bog-standard Snowflakes who lived in Tangency and proudly proclaimed that they didn't play RPGs at all, they just viewed Tangency as their safe space.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1084193That was going to happen the day a critical mass was reached and you had your bog-standard Snowflakes who lived in Tangency and proudly proclaimed that they didn't play RPGs at all, they just viewed Tangency as their safe space.

True. The site became about Tangency, and the rules to deal with Tangency issues bled over into the RPG portion.

I've got mixed feelings about Tangency.  I learned a lot there, about logic, and debating, and people.  I came from a pretty sheltered, religious background.  I wasn't able to get any education past high school for various reasons.  And while I got dressed down a lot and picked a lot of fights and enjoyed pissing people off, okay, I did.  I don't know, it gave me something I couldn't really get in my life at the time.  I probably contributed to the victory of the aberrant by making things more toxic but I learned from it and it helped me grow at a time when I was very stuck and going through some difficult shit.  But after the mod wars, the tone changed.  It's weird to me but after the cool kids clique abandoned ship the place just kept getting more conservatively liberal if you know what I mean.  I often wonder if a lot of things I said back in the day would mysteriously reappear if I ever got serious about self publishing or put stuff on rpgnow.  I don't like the sense of being silenced or having to be silent there.  I can understand why it can't be the raucous, wild place it was anymore but the bias clearly leans pretty far left these days.  And yet, it's more toxic than ever as far as I can see.  :(

Quote from: David Johansen;1084199I often wonder if a lot of things I said back in the day would mysteriously reappear if I ever got serious about self publishing or put stuff on rpgnow.  

Finally, the search function would work again.

Ha!  That'd be the day.  I've been trying to find the ending I wrote to my Conan Reepicheep fan fic for years since I lost it to a hard drive failure.

But no, I'm pretty sure there are people who keep lists of names and posts that have offended them, much like our own "This Is Why We Don't Like You" thread.

The sense of entitlement on the part of some SJWs from TBP is both astounding and cringe worthy to read about. " I personally logged on to the SJgames website and hoped theg listened my outright demand..they did not BOYCOTT time! "

Yes because companies just exist for them. I hope Steve Jackson atays firm on his decision. What guarantee does the company have thst the mentally ill SJWs would go back to playing Gurps.

LOL at this thread...the fedoras and mi'ladies out in full force. Hit on a girl in a bar? PREPOSTEROUS!

You guys sound like real social animals.

Stacy's going at Evil Hat again now. I guess she got bored going after SJGames as it seems her efforts there didn't go viral and bough for her.

https://mobile.twitter.com/StacyRex/status/1120715903341961216

I am not into Fate/Fred Hicks/Evil Hat, but it is over the top when she says that Fred has " owed me a mortal enemy". I'm positive that Fred did not swear an oath to seek Stacy's death. Also, I note how she minimizes that all she did to Fred prior to that was to call him out for slut-shaming Kingdoms of Death, when what she actually did was lead a boycott of the Fate Core Kickstarter. Now she's at it again because Fred will not send money her way. There's nothing that she claims is wrong with Fate/Evil Hat itself.

"Wah!", cries the scorpion, "the bad man that I stung before won't give me funding, so I'll sting him again!" Unfortunately for Stacy I think at least some of the targets are acquiring an immunity to the poison.

Quote from: Brad;1084253LOL at this thread...the fedoras and mi'ladies out in full force. Hit on a girl in a bar? PREPOSTEROUS!

You guys sound like real social animals.

So you agree with the statement that the only reason women go to bars is to get hit on by hot dudes, and they have to expect that they'll get pawed by drunks?

And you still haven't mentioned how often you go to bars.

Quote from: Haffrung;1084261So you agree with the statement that the only reason women go to bars is to get hit on by hot dudes, and they have to expect that they'll get pawed by drunks?

And you still haven't mentioned how often you go to bars.

I agree with the statement that a normal woman FULLY EXPECTS there's a possibility to be hit on by a guy at a bar. Just like I fully expect some rando will start having a conversation with me about whatever game is on at the time I'm at the bar. But then again, I don't go to anti-social millennial bars where everyone is furiously posting on feminist messageboards with their phones. If a girl is at a gaming convention having a drink at a hotel bar and some dude starts chatting her up...so? Should the fisticuffs begin, a shining white knight keeping the dogs at bay? Protect the young maiden from unwanted contact at all costs!

RE: frequency, probably once a week on average, usually on Friday/Saturday nights, with the occasional Saturday or Sunday afternoon. But as stated, I go to like actual bars and stuff, not places socially inept rubes congregate to pretend they're out in public when they actually just want to shun all possible human contact.

Stacy is a dude right? I saw his/her photo on Twitter and it was born a dude, right? This would explain how mentally I'll he/she is.

Quote from: Lurtch;1084268Stacy is a dude right? I saw his/her photo on Twitter and it was born a dude, right? This would explain how mentally I'll he/she is.

No, woman.

Quote from: Brad;1084262places socially inept rubes congregate to pretend they're out in public when they actually just want to shun all possible human contact.

This kinda describes the classic English pub very well. :D

Quote from: S'mon;1084282No, woman.

Are you sure?

Quote from: Lurtch;1084295Are you sure?

Greetings!

Yeah, I forgot where, but I could swear that "Stacy" is a man, dressing up and pretending to be a "woman". So, he's a Transexual. Whatever, though. She's a freak, though, and a ranting SJW freakshow all by herself. I couldn't believe how hate-filled, and racist she is. I read several of her blog entries, where she goes on and on about how evil white males are, how evil and hateful White people are, and on and on. She's very misandrist and racist. She seems to hate normal men, and white people in general.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1084299Yeah, I forgot where, but I could swear that "Stacy" is a man, dressing up and pretending to be a "woman". So, he's a Transexual. Whatever, though. She's a freak, though, and a ranting SJW freakshow all by herself.

This is fucking bullshit. Disagreeing with their rants is fine - I do. But attacking people over their gender - particularly with false information that you don't even pretend to know - is utter crap.

You might claim to be a man, SHARK, but here you demonstrate that you're just a dickless wonder, who swims in gossip and lies for lack of any other substance.

Stacy was a woman (just finished breast cancer treatments). They no longer consider themselves to be a woman and use they/them pronouns. I think they are off base and sexist and racist, but using their suggested pronouns is no big deal and a minor courtesy.

Quote from: jhkim;1084303This is fucking bullshit. Disagreeing with their rants is fine - I do. But attacking people over their gender - particularly with false information that you don't even pretend to know - is utter crap.

I agree with jhkim here.  That was a bit rough SHARK.

Quote from: jhkim;1084303This is fucking bullshit. Disagreeing with their rants is fine - I do. But attacking people over their gender - particularly with false information that you don't even pretend to know - is utter crap.

You might claim to be a man, SHARK, but here you demonstrate that you're just a dickless wonder, who swims in gossip and lies for lack of any other substance.

Greetings!

Well, I have always assumed she was a woman. However, I have heard many claim otherwise. I suppose when she refers to herself as "They/Them" it isn't surprising that there is considerable doubt and uncertainty as to her gender.

I don't care what her fucking "gender" is. Evidently, Myrdin Potter assures us she is a woman.

Great. Sounds good to me.

Oh, and Jhkim? I'm a "dickless wonder"? Fuck you.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084304Stacy was a woman (just finished breast cancer treatments). They no longer consider themselves to be a woman and use they/them pronouns. I think they are off base and sexist and racist, but using their suggested pronouns is no big deal and a minor courtesy.

Greetings!

Ahh. Good to know, Myrdin Potter. Thank you.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Shasarak;1084305I agree with jhkim here.  That was a bit rough SHARK.

Greetings!

Hey there, Shasarak. Well, I thought she was a woman. I've read a number of people that have claimed otherwise, and well, with her referring to herself as "They/Them" or whatever, I can understand why many would be uncertain.

I wasn't certain myself.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Who cares what gender Stacy D is and what pronouns she prefers? She is as crazy as a shithouse rat and that is all you need to know.

Quote from: SHARK;1084308Well, I have always assumed she was a woman. However, I have heard many claim otherwise. I suppose when she refers to herself as "They/Them" it isn't surprising that there is considerable doubt and uncertainty as to her gender.

I don't care what her fucking "gender" is. Evidently, Myrdin Potter assures us she is a woman.

If you don't care what their gender is, then why are you (and Lurtch) asking about it and posting false claims about it?

It exactly the opposite. I don't care about their gender, and I'm saying your interest in their gender is bullshit.

Nick Reikeita just dropped the news:

Beard, Harris, Bullock & Hughes of Texas are suing B.J. Hensley, Stacey Dellaforino, Jessica Price and Christopher Helton on behalf of Frog God Games.

Steve Jackson games are 100% behind FGG.

Nick delivered a message on behalf of BHB&H:  "We will be in touch."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvqJ1mTkEuY

Quote from: jhkim;1084313If you don't care what their gender is, then why are you (and Lurtch) asking about it and posting false claims about it?

It exactly the opposite. I don't care about their gender, and I'm saying your interest in their gender is bullshit.

Greetings!

Clean the earwax out of your ears, Jhkim. I said I was uncertain what her fucking gender is. I did not purposely make any *false* claims about a goddamned thing. I don't have any fucking interest in what her gender is.

The point is, she evidently hates men, and is particularly hate-filled towards white people.

Now that that is clear, you can stop white knighting for her like a little bitch.

She's a woman. Great. Get the fuck over it. I wasn't sure what her gender is. Now it's more clear. Big fucking deal.

Is she blowing you, Jhkim? If you're so concerned about *accuracy* I've already stipulated that--according to S'mon and Murdin, she's a woman.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1084316Nick Reikeita just dropped the news:

Beard, Harris, Bullock & Hughes of Texas are suing B.J. Hensley, Stacey Dellaforino, Jessica Price and Christopher Helton on behalf of Frog God Games.

Steve Jackson games are 100% behind FGG.

Nick delivered a message on behalf of BHB&H:  "We will be in touch."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvqJ1mTkEuY

Greetings!

Excellent! I hope they they are successful.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1084316Nick Reikeita just dropped the news:

Beard, Harris, Bullock & Hughes of Texas are suing B.J. Hensley, Stacey Dellaforino, Jessica Price and Christopher Helton on behalf of Frog God Games.

Steve Jackson games are 100% behind FGG.

Nick delivered a message on behalf of BHB&H:  "We will be in touch."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvqJ1mTkEuY

Now that is some good news.

Quote from: jeff37923;1084311Who cares what gender Stacy D is and what pronouns she prefers? She is as crazy as a shithouse rat and that is all you need to know.

Greetings!

LOL! Exactly, Jeff. I don't know why what gender Stacy D is and what pronouns she prefers is so important to Jhkim. The fact that I voiced a speculation of uncertainty about her has Jhkim clutching his pearls.

Weird.:D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1084319Now that that is clear, you can stop white knighting for her like a little bitch.

Calm down, soldier.

What's that? You're upset at being addressed in a way you don't identify with? :p

Look, it's not our fault Americans like to give boys girl's names like Stacy. Even John Wayne was a Marion. Just name your kids properly, or they grow up confused and turn into Social Justice Warriors, or worse, Conservative Justice Warriors.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1084316Nick Reikeita just dropped the news:

Beard, Harris, Bullock & Hughes of Texas are suing B.J. Hensley, Stacey Dellaforino, Jessica Price and Christopher Helton on behalf of Frog God Games.

Steve Jackson games are 100% behind FGG.

Nick delivered a message on behalf of BHB&H:  "We will be in touch."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvqJ1mTkEuY

It's cliche to say that no lawsuit is a slam dunk, but considering how STUPID the SJWs going after Vic are--and how often SJWs in different scenes think and act alike--I am certain that Beard's firm will win this one easily. Stacy and company simply will NOT STOP GIVING THEM AMMO!

Nick Rekieta talked about it in his livestream last night: https://youtu.be/HMThCmRezFw?t=3444

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1084316Nick Reikeita just dropped the news:

Beard, Harris, Bullock & Hughes of Texas are suing B.J. Hensley, Stacey Dellaforino, Jessica Price and Christopher Helton on behalf of Frog God Games.

Steve Jackson games are 100% behind FGG.

Nick delivered a message on behalf of BHB&H:  "We will be in touch."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvqJ1mTkEuY

Yeah, I thought it would be Frog God not SJG taking action. Will be interesting to see how this develops, and whether they can demonstrate malevolent falsehood - my understanding is that libel is a tough sell in the USA, unlike here in UK. I wish them luck; apart from Hensley (AFAIK) the people they are taking action against have done immense harm to the RPG hobby IMO.

Edit: Do you have a link that isn't to Bad Boys 2? :D

Edit 2: Just thinking about this more. Suing Hensley (the person Webb apparently hit on at Paizocon) seems very odd, given that she seems to have behaved decently the whole time, and this is likely to cost a lot of public sympathy. This looks to me like a very US-lawyerly move that could well backfire badly (seen similar when my then-fiancee was enjoined in a suit against her landlady by lawyers working for parents of a girl who fell down stairs outside her apartment). I would have thought Robert Brookes (https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/78q70a/tabletop_gaming_more_harassment_claims_in_the/) would have been a much more obvious target. Of course there may be things we don't know.

Quote from: S'mon;1084331Edit: Do you have a link that isn't to Bad Boys 2? :D

Here ya go...
https://youtu.be/HMThCmRezFw?t=3440

Edit: Dang! Too slow.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;1084324Nick Rekieta talked about it in his livestream last night: https://youtu.be/HMThCmRezFw?t=3444

Thanks for link!

Quote from: Godfather Punk;1084335Here ya go...
https://youtu.be/HMThCmRezFw?t=3440

Edit: Dang! Too slow.

:)

OK so just watched the video. So it sounds as if Webb is saying he never actually hit on Hensley at all, and did not pester her, he just offered her a cigarette. Which then explains why they are looking to enjoin her in the suit. If that's so it seems odd that Frog God themselves published an apology for Webb's behaviour at the convention. But Matt Finch is pretty socjus-inclined. Still I suspect the truth is somewhere in between.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1084316Nick Reikeita just dropped the news:
Beard, Harris, Bullock & Hughes of Texas are suing B.J. Hensley, Stacey Dellaforino, Jessica Price and Christopher Helton on behalf of Frog God Games.
Steve Jackson games are 100% behind FGG.
Nick delivered a message on behalf of BHB&H:  "We will be in touch."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvqJ1mTkEuY

This is going to get really ugly, but what can you do? It was going to happen one day. People are going to find out that using outrage mobs to destroy someone's business and reputation is no longer on the scale of geek slapfights and bad forum politics. These choices can come with real consequences (going both ways), and courts of law don't work the same way as courts of public opinion.

Agreed about it getting ugly. Then again it was only a matter of time before legal pushback against SJWs would happen. Predictably TBP is having yet another meltdown on the topic. How dare FFG and SJgames not conform to their insane, entitled demands.

How many times can one be done with a company as a fan. I don't get yet remotely understand SJWS why would someone not defend themselves against brigading attempts.

Quote from: sureshot;1084355. I don't get yet remotely understand SJWS why would someone not defend themselves against brigading attempts.

Time, money and social pressure (the fear of public shaming).

Very effective means of coercion. But all good things must come to an end, eventually.

I did my part for the betterment of humankind, and posted the link to the Rekieta Law website on ENWorld.

I feel good (now if I could only stop shaking with glee and schadenfreunde... :-).

Quote from: jhkim;1084313If you don't care what their gender is, then why are you (and Lurtch) asking about it and posting false claims about it?

It exactly the opposite. I don't care about their gender, and I'm saying your interest in their gender is bullshit.

It would help explain why she is mentally ill.

Quote from: sureshot;1084355Agreed about it getting ugly. Then again it was only a matter of time before legal pushback against SJWs would happen. Predictably TBP is having yet another meltdown on the topic. How dare FFG and SJgames not conform to their insane, entitled demands.

How many times can one be done with a company as a fan. I don't get yet remotely understand SJWS why would someone not defend themselves against brigading attempts.

They are totalitarians. The only way for this to stop is to suck the oxygen (money) out of the room for these knuckleheads.

I'm glad Bill Webb is doing something. They are ruining his name, his business, and he has to fight back.

Quote from: Brad;1084262I agree with the statement that a normal woman FULLY EXPECTS there's a possibility to be hit on by a guy at a bar. Just like I fully expect some rando will start having a conversation with me about whatever game is on at the time I'm at the bar. But then again, I don't go to anti-social millennial bars where everyone is furiously posting on feminist messageboards with their phones. If a girl is at a gaming convention having a drink at a hotel bar and some dude starts chatting her up...so? Should the fisticuffs begin, a shining white knight keeping the dogs at bay? Protect the young maiden from unwanted contact at all costs!

Nice strawman. Spinachcat, a self-admitted non-drinker who doesn't go to bars, claimed the only reason women go to bars is to get picked up by hot dudes. He labours under a misconception pretty common to people who don't actually drink or go to bars that the're dens of wild debauchery.

Of course a woman (or man, for that matter) who goes to a bar can expect there's a chance a someone may hit on them. Doesn't mean it's why they're going out, or that they have no reason to get annoyed if someone is being an asshole.

Quote from: Brad;1084262But as stated, I go to like actual bars and stuff, not places socially inept rubes congregate to pretend they're out in public when they actually just want to shun all possible human contact.

So when you go to a bar with three friends and don't expect to speak to anybody else, you're socially inept rubes? When I went with 16 co-workers a couple weeks ago for a going-away party for a colleague and it ended up with a bunch of us hitting a couple more bars, getting hammered, and none of us (all married or in a relationship) hit on anyone or were hit on, we were being socially inept rubes?

I'm confident most of the people who go out to a bar on any given night in the city I live in have no intention of speaking to anybody except the people they came with and maybe the waitress or bartender. Pounding shooters and looking to get laid are perfectly fine things. They just aren't what most people who like to drink alcohol with friends are interested in doing most of the time. I mean half the people out at a bar around here are with their partner anyway. A buddy of mine goes out three nights a week with his wife. In your world, that means they're probably swingers?

Re: Bad Boys 2 - that's the standard mic-drop for things like that. :D  The stream was still going on when I sent it so I wanted to make sure I got all of the salient details before giving y'all a time-stamped

I agree that going after Hensley might be a tactical mistake, but my non-lawyer observation is that a tactic is to lean on a group of people in some cases like this to see if any of them will flip on the others.  Maybe that's what he's doing here?  Because her words (I believe, I honestly haven't followed the case that closely until now) seem to have been, look, this happened, I don't want to dwell on it, I want to move past it.  So I'm wondering - and this is purely speculation - if he's not looking for someone to say, "Look, I never approached other businesses or conventions to try and ban FGG or Bill Webb or Steve Jackson Games".

Because, and let's be 100% clear, that is the angle they're coming in at.  They are NOT suing based on slander, they are suing based on Tortious Interference (that is, interfering with business contracts).  The Slander is just the ketchup for the fries...their attorneys will likely try to invoke anti-SLAPP privilege on what their clients have said, and may even have a legitimate case for it, but the TI is...yeah.  That's going to be ugly.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3341[/ATTACH]

Quote from: Haffrung;1084360Nice strawman. Spinachcat, a self-admitted non-drinker who doesn't go to bars, claimed the only reason women go to bars is to get picked up by hot dudes. He labours under a misconception pretty common to people who don't actually drink or go to bars that the're dens of wild debauchery.

Of course a woman (or man, for that matter) who goes to a bar can expect there's a chance a someone may hit on them. Doesn't mean it's why they're going out, or that they have no reason to get annoyed if someone is being an asshole.



So when you go to a bar with three friends and don't expect to speak to anybody else, you're socially inept rubes? When I went with 16 co-workers a couple weeks ago for a going-away party for a colleague and it ended up with a bunch of us hitting a couple more bars, getting hammered, and none of us (all married or in a relationship) hit on anyone or were hit on, we were being socially inept rubes?

I'm confident most of the people who go out to a bar on any given night in the city I live in have no intention of speaking to anybody except the people they came with and maybe the waitress or bartender. Pounding shooters and looking to get laid are perfectly fine things. They just aren't what most people who like to drink alcohol with friends are interested in doing most of the time. I mean half the people out at a bar around here are with their partner anyway. A buddy of mine goes out three nights a week with his wife. In your world, that means they're probably swingers?

Replying so you know I saw this. IDGAF what you think or say, honestly. You're free to be a retard.

RE: whole point of this thread...yeah. A lawsuit because you're directly damaging a company's ability to make money due to your mental illness. Makes perfect sense to me. And the whole gender thing...Jesus. If someone told me they wanted to be called King Arthur, I'd probably think they were a lunatic, so dudes wanting to be called ma'am I'll lump into the same category. It's not a moral necessity to placate people who are obviously dealing with legitimate emotional/mental issues, and doing so actually undermines their ability to get help. Why people insist that helping these people entails buying into their delusions is beyond me.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084304Stacy was a woman (just finished breast cancer treatments). They no longer consider themselves to be a woman and use they/them pronouns. I think they are off base and sexist and racist, but using their suggested pronouns is no big deal and a minor courtesy.

No one has the right to tell me what pronouns I must use to refer to them.  Pronouns aren't used when you're in direct conversation with a person, but are instead used when you refer about someone to a third party and there is no right to insist how I communicate with another person or multiple people, whether it's about them or not.

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;1084365No one has the right to tell me what pronouns I must use to refer to them.  Pronouns aren't used when you're in direct conversation with a person, but are instead used when you refer about someone to a third party and there is no right to insist how I communicate with another person or multiple people, whether it's about them or not.

Of course they have the right to tell you what pronouns they prefer. It is not illegal. If you refuse, that is your choice. But they certainly have the right to tell you the pronouns they use.

Quote from: Melan;1084349This is going to get really ugly, but what can you do? It was going to happen one day. People are going to find out that using outrage mobs to destroy someone's business and reputation is no longer on the scale of geek slapfights and bad forum politics. These choices can come with real consequences (going both ways), and courts of law don't work the same way as courts of public opinion.

The joy of the modern Internet is that it makes it much easier to prove what someone said or incited when you're going for defamation.

Apparently if an rpg does not bend over backwards to support the bloodthirsty SJW mob they are supporting the Alt-right. Wow the entitlement never ends at TBP

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084368Of course they have the right to tell you what pronouns they prefer. It is not illegal. If you refuse, that is your choice. But they certainly have the right to tell you the pronouns they use.

I don't mean "right" in the strict sense, of course they have the freedom to say what they will.

What I meant, I suppose, was "fuck off with that bullshit."

Quote from: Brad;1084363It's not a moral necessity to placate people who are obviously dealing with legitimate emotional/mental issues, and doing so actually undermines their ability to get help. Why people insist that helping these people entails buying into their delusions is beyond me.

Wait, are we talking about the loons on RPGnet or Spinachcat? Because it's also not a moral necessity when confronted with one strain of batshit lunacy to embrace another strain of batshit lunacy. People who freak out at the very notion of someone making a pass at a woman are handwringing zealots. And people who think the only reason women go to bars is to get "pawed at by hot guys" are pathetic misogynists and probably incels to boot. The one isn't necessary to combat the other. Both are fucking obnoxious, and recognized as obnoxious by anyone who is honest and has a brain. Excusing the obnoxious idiots on your 'side' is why the Culture Warz or so toxic.

Quote from: sureshot;1084371Apparently if an rpg does not bend over backwards to support the bloodthirsty SJW mob they are supporting the Alt-right. Wow the entitlement never ends at TBP

   If you are not with them, you are with the enemies of civilization. (That becomes especially galling after seeing Stacy describe Notre Dame as a 'symbol of hate' last weekend ...)

Lawsuit was going to come on one of these eventually. If the BS the are spouting is true, then they have nothing to be afraid of.

What drives me crazy is, did this all start because Bill Webb handed a woman a pouch with cigarettes that included his room key and she took that as sexual harassment? When I travel back to India I have a pouch I hang around my neck with my passport, cash, ID, and room keys. It's very common to use these when you travel.

The other side never said what he did. They just lie and imply.

TBP put up a thread about the potential lawsuit.

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/frog-god-games-threatens-to-sue-bill-webbs-victim-and-others-read-redtext-in-post-13-before-replying-suit-not-yet-actually-filed.844987/

What's interesting is that everyone there seems to have a very dramatic opinion about it, while no one seems to have actually watched the video in question because it's "too toxic." Nobody has even mentioned the possibility that Bill Webb did not harass the alleged victim at all, it's all cries of "legally silencing the victim" without even knowing the details of what they're talking about (sort of like in the SJG thread).

They are essentially clapping their hands over their ears and screaming. How embarrassing.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1084381TBP put up a thread about the potential lawsuit.

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/frog-god-games-threatens-to-sue-bill-webbs-victim-and-others-read-redtext-in-post-13-before-replying-suit-not-yet-actually-filed.844987/

What's interesting is that everyone there seems to have a very dramatic opinion about it, while no one seems to have actually watched the video in question because it's "too toxic." Nobody has even mentioned the possibility that Bill Webb did not harass the alleged victim at all, it's all cries of "legally silencing the victim" without even knowing the details of what they're talking about (sort of like in the SJG thread).

They are essentially clapping their hands over their ears and screaming. How embarrassing.

LOL you can't view it without being logged in, I guess they're circling the wagons already.  How embarrassing! indeed.

These brainlets also seem to forget that this isn't about the (alleged) assault: this is about tortious interference.  You do not get to destroy a person's career based on conjecture.  People make crazy claims about other people all the time but what you cannot do is try to interfere in a contract.  That's not silencing victims, that's stopping someone from destroying a business.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1084382These brainlets also seem to forget that this isn't about the (alleged) assault: this is about tortious interference.  You do not get to destroy a person's career based on conjecture.  People make crazy claims about other people all the time but what you cannot do is try to interfere in a contract.  That's not silencing victims, that's stopping someone from destroying a business.

100%. It never ceases to amuse me how quickly and flagrantly these types claim victimhood (in the most deliberately inciteful way possible) before immediately turning around and using that claimed victimhood as a weapon to victimize and control others, up to and including the destruction of peoples lives, reputations, livelihoods and families.

Quote from: Lurtch;1084379What drives me crazy is, did this all start because Bill Webb handed a woman a pouch with cigarettes that included his room key and she took that as sexual harassment? When I travel back to India I have a pouch I hang around my neck with my passport, cash, ID, and room keys. It's very common to use these when you travel.

The other side never said what he did. They just lie and imply.

Nick Rekieta is claiming that this cigarette story what happened in his video, but I haven't seen that from any of the previous descriptions of the incident. The understanding that I had previously was that allegedly, Webb had drunkenly following a woman around the hotel, who described him as stalking her through the halls, until a con staff member intervened - who was then injured in some way. The woman had not wanted to make this public, but Robert Brookes observed this and filed a complaint to PaizoCon who investigated and made a judgement. This was the thread I read:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?4613-Harassment-At-PaizoCon-2017

If people were lying about either of those, then they should be held responsible. Though, Nick Rekieta seems irresponsible to me to not at least mention that this was the other side of the story. Has anyone seen this cigarette story from anywhere other than Rekieta's video? What is his source for that?

Gee. It's like, everyone has their side of the story, and you can't just #believewomen.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1084381TBP put up a thread about the potential lawsuit.

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/frog-god-games-threatens-to-sue-bill-webbs-victim-and-others-read-redtext-in-post-13-before-replying-suit-not-yet-actually-filed.844987/

What's interesting is that everyone there seems to have a very dramatic opinion about it, while no one seems to have actually watched the video in question because it's "too toxic." Nobody has even mentioned the possibility that Bill Webb did not harass the alleged victim at all, it's all cries of "legally silencing the victim" without even knowing the details of what they're talking about (sort of like in the SJG thread).

They are essentially clapping their hands over their ears and screaming. How embarrassing.

I dont' care to log into RPG.net. Does anyone have a link to this video?

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1084391I dont' care to log into RPG.net. Does anyone have a link to this video?

It's right here, starts at 54 minutes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMThCmRezFw&feature=youtu.be&t=3440

The guy doing the YouTube video seemed pretty vague on the facts, so I would not consider him to be a very good source of new facts. I don't post on the other site so I cannot read their new thread, but thinking this is just a nuisance lawsuit is not the best approach as I did some searching and the lawyer that was hired has won an actual judgment in the past. I would be careful about what I said.

The outcome is pretty clear - their allegations are true and provable and the lawsuits die and it invigorates them or they are not true and the court then will determine if they are damaging (slander/libel). Without being part of the process and seeing the testimony, nothing else to do but wait and be more cautious about comments.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084397The guy doing the YouTube video seemed pretty vague on the facts, so I would not consider him to be a very good source of new facts. I don't post on the other site so I cannot read their new thread, but thinking this is just a nuisance lawsuit is not the best approach as I did some searching and the lawyer that was hired has won an actual judgment in the past. I would be careful about what I said.

The outcome is pretty clear - their allegations are true and provable and the lawsuits die and it invigorates them or they are not true and the court then will determine if they are damaging (slander/libel). Without being part of the process and seeing the testimony, nothing else to do but wait and be more cautious about comments.

  This is probably the wisest course for all of us, no matter how frustrating some of the participants can be. (I have to remind myself that just because folks like Stacy are leading the charge, it doesn't necessarily mean that there's nothing to it.)

   Of course, the truly wise course might just be to walk away from the industry and the 'online community' altogether and custom-build, play and run our own games. :)

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1084393It's right here, starts at 54 minutes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMThCmRezFw&feature=youtu.be&t=3440

Thankyew.

Oh it's Webb as plaintiff. Still glad we are establishing libel law's supremacy over TWITTER JUSTICE, but I was hoping it would be Steve Jackson so there'd be gas in the tank to fund things. Litigation can get expensive, which is why Nick's $140k GFM (https://www.gofundme.com/vic-kicks-back) for the Mignogna suit has been so important.

EDIT: On the adjunct discussion, if she tells you to stop, please be the gentleman you were raised to be and stop. If she (hopefully) digs it, you two might do as innumerable couples have done before you and forge a successful relationship from a chance meeting at the bar.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084397The guy doing the YouTube video seemed pretty vague on the facts, so I would not consider him to be a very good source of new facts.

The Youtuber Rekieta is actually pretty specific about some details of offering a cigarette with room key and id with them. The strange thing is that I've never heard that story previously for this incident, and it doesn't match any previous statement from either side of what happened. I'm curious where he got that. The only other source I see for information is an RPGnet thread (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/frog-god-games-threatens-to-sue-bill-webbs-victim-and-others-read-redtext-in-post-13-before-replying-suit-not-yet-actually-filed.844987/), which cites a tweet from lawyer Ty Beard that implies that the lawsuit exists, but has no other concrete information yet.

Quote from: Xisiqomelir;1084402If she (hopefully) digs it, you two might do as innumerable couples have done before you and forge a successful relationship from a chance meeting at the bar.

And then you get another 2-4 people to join you in plundering dungeons!

Quote from: HappyDaze;1084405And then you get another 2-4 people to join you in plundering dungeons!

So that's how you call it ? You dirty, dirty mind ;-) !

Quote from: jhkim;1084404The Youtuber Rekieta is actually pretty specific about some details of offering a cigarette with room key and id with them. The strange thing is that I've never heard that story previously for this incident, and it doesn't match any previous statement from either side of what happened. I'm curious where he got that. The only other source I see for information is an RPGnet thread (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/frog-god-games-threatens-to-sue-bill-webbs-victim-and-others-read-redtext-in-post-13-before-replying-suit-not-yet-actually-filed.844987/), which cites a tweet from lawyer Ty Beard that implies that the lawsuit exists, but has no other concrete information yet.

If this is all about someone misinterpreting an offer of a cigarette I will owe some people an apology. I've been hard on Bill Webb and some of his defenders based on Frog God's statement after the event acknowledging Bill had done something wrong. Unfortunately, it'll likely be some months before this sorts it's way through a court. If this is truly over an offer of a cigarette I have to wonder why FGG admitted bad behavior to anything.

Quote from: wmarshal;1084412If this is truly over an offer of a cigarette I have to wonder why FGG admitted bad behavior to anything.

[*in his best Galaxy Quest voice impersonation*]
Never give up ! Never surrender !

Quote from: wmarshal;1084412If this is all about someone misinterpreting an offer of a cigarette I will owe some people an apology. I've been hard on Bill Webb and some of his defenders based on Frog God's statement after the event acknowledging Bill had done something wrong. Unfortunately, it'll likely be some months before this sorts it's way through a court. If this is truly over an offer of a cigarette I have to wonder why FGG admitted bad behavior to anything.

If true, I bet they they thought admitting guilt and promising to do better would make it go away. Unfortunately, that isn't something that works with SJWs.

Just watched the Rekieta stream about this and my jaw dropped open when he announced it in the middle of the comicsgate talk with TUG. Didn't realize this was going on, but after thinking about it a second or two, realized I shouldn't be surprised....

Hope they've gotten some lawyers ready.

Quote from: wmarshal;1084412If this is all about someone misinterpreting an offer of a cigarette I will owe some people an apology. I've been hard on Bill Webb and some of his defenders based on Frog God's statement after the event acknowledging Bill had done something wrong. Unfortunately, it'll likely be some months before this sorts it's way through a court. If this is truly over an offer of a cigarette I have to wonder why FGG admitted bad behavior to anything.

It's a question that I've seen more often come up with women's charges of harassment. i.e. "If he really harassed you, why were you silent for years and only came forward with these accusations now?"  In this case, though, the harassment accusation happened at the time, and this opposing story of how it was actually an innocent gesture has surfaced only over a year later.

Either way, there can be valid reasons to delay. Still, I don't even know if this is Webb's account of what happened - since Rekieta doesn't even say where he got that story.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084368Of course they have the right to tell you what pronouns they prefer. It is not illegal. If you refuse, that is your choice. But they certainly have the right to tell you the pronouns they use.

I thought that it was in Canada. I know that these same Social Justice Terrorists are trying to make it a crime in the US.

Quote from: jeff37923;1084421I thought that it was in Canada. I know that these same Social Justice Terrorists are trying to make it a crime in the US.

Greetings!

Hey Jeff! I read somewhere in the news that such laws and codes have already been established in America. As I recall, in New York and maybe other states, you can be arrested and fined, as well as fired and evicted if you refer to Trans what the fuck by what they consider to be an improper pronoun. So, evidently it's already here, with other cities and states considering adopting similar laws to "protect" the trans people.

Crazy stuff, my friend.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3342[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3343[/ATTACH]

One popular story is that in the supposed incident at Paizo Con, Bill Webb assaulted someone. Above is what actually happened. Someone took it upon themselves to grab him and hurt themselves.

Makes you wonder how much more exaggeration there is around this?

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084425[ATTACH=CONFIG]3342[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3343[/ATTACH]

One popular story is that in the supposed incident at Paizo Con, Bill Webb assaulted someone. Above is what actually happened. Someone took it upon themselves to grab him and hurt themselves.

Makes you wonder how much more exaggeration there is around this?

A whole lot

I feel bad for the people who've gotten dragged by the SJ crowd but I'm hoping that when the dust settles, a whole lot of the SJWs just fuck right off into the sunset and never come back to RPGs or wargaming ever again.

You just can't trust the sjws.  If your the enemy, then all tactics are good tactics no matter how deceitful it is.  Their saying is literally, "There is no bad tactics.  Just bad targets."

Quote from: SHARK;1084424Hey Jeff! I read somewhere in the news that such laws and codes have already been established in America. As I recall, in New York and maybe other states, you can be arrested and fined, as well as fired and evicted if you refer to Trans what the fuck by what they consider to be an improper pronoun. So, evidently it's already here, with other cities and states considering adopting similar laws to "protect" the trans people.

I have not seen anything like this, and the U.S. has stronger free speech protections than Canada. Without any sort of reference, I don't consider this evident.

New York does now have employment protection for transgender people - in the sense that an employer cannot fire an employee solely for being transgender, just as they cannot fire them just for being white, or just for being Catholic. That's very different than your claim, though. Free speech protects that you can use offensive language without being arrested or fined - but you can indeed be fired or evicted for it, because most employment is at will. If I call my boss a freak or a deviant, then they can fire me for it.

Quote from: wmarshal;1084412... based on Frog God's statement after the event acknowledging Bill had done something wrong.

wmarshal, please bear with me - I'm not actually responding to you per se, but have keyed in on the bit quoted above to get on my soapbox about a larger trend I've seen. Feel free to ignore me as you see fit.

This (the quoted portion) appears to be how most people interpreted that statement from FFG, but that's a shaky interpretation at best. The "admission of guilt" part of their statements reads,

Quotemy understanding based on my investigation was that Bill Webb took an action and engaged in speech that could be construed as a sexual advance or as gender-dismissive

(emphasis mine)

"Could be construed as" does not equal "admits to having done so". It means, at absolute best, that Matt Finch, the writer of the statement (who spends a great deal of the actual written response stating how vague the whole situation is) can see how some action or speech might be taken a certain way. That's it. It's a far, far cry from an actual admission of wrongdoing.

Far too many people, if they've bothered reading that statement at all, have latched onto that bit and said, "oh, well, if it can be taken that way, then it must have been that way and they're admitting it"! I'm willing to bet dollars to pesos that most people didn't bother with actually reading the statement. They've instead taken it for granted that "reliable sources" have read the statement and because they say there was an unequivocal admission of guilt, then there must be one.

And lest anyone come along and conclude that my little rant here is a defense of Bill Webb. It's not. I don't know the guy and I wasn't there. He could be guilty as sin for all I know. All I'm pointing out is that there's an awful lot of people who repeat with conviction that there's been some admission of guilt. After several days of obsessing over digging into the data at hand on this like some sick voyeur (it's like not being able to look away when you damn well know you should), I do not share that conclusion.

Matt Finch stating that there's grounds for an apology to be issued is also not an admission of guilt. I myself, being a grown adult of reasonably sound mind, will often apologize not for something I've done nor the intent with which I've done it, but for how someone else might have received a thing I've done or said. It's called having empathy for the other  person's perspective. It's acknowledging that sometime misunderstandings happen, and that I'll try to be better next time.

That's what I took away from reading FGG's statement.

I guess to close this out I'll say I'm sorry to all of you in general if this is ground already well tread. I chose not to pay the slightest attention to the situation in 2017, and given the involvement of SJG now, I decided to look into it now - with some small amount of regret (I feel like the whole thing makes me dirty somehow).

Quote from: jhkim;1084431I have not seen anything like this, and the U.S. has stronger free speech protections than Canada. Without any sort of reference, I don't consider this evident.

I believe they're referring to California's SB-219.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180SB219

QuoteAmong other things, the bill would make it unlawful, except as specified, for any long-term care facility to take specified actions wholly or partially on the basis of a person's actual or perceived sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression, or human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) status, including, among others, willfully and repeatedly failing to use a resident's preferred name or pronouns after being clearly informed of the preferred name or pronouns, or denying admission to a long-term care facility, transferring or refusing to transfer a resident within a facility or to another facility, or discharging or evicting a resident from a facility.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1084433I believe they're referring to California's SB-219.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180SB219

Greetings!

Exactly, Ratman. I read of something similar about that, as well as employees being fired, and tenants in apartments being evicted--if they didn't use the right pronoun prefered by the trans.

It's fucking BS.

And, Jhkim, I don't have the link to the story I read about happening in New York. It's all just a trainload of more special rights for trans, and punishing normal people. I don't think that's right. You can look up whatever they have going on in New York and California. It's there, and it's happening. More special rights and coddling for mentally ill people, and punishing normal people that don't buy into their mental delusion and illness.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1084433I believe they're referring to California's SB-219.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180SB219

That bill is specifically about regulating how an employee treats someone who is their *patient* in a long-term senior care facility. That's very different than a general free-speech case.

I will absolutely fight for the right of a bigot to be able to call someone a n***er or a f***ot or similar on the street. That's their free speech right. If someone is a *patient* of a bigot, though, that's a different situation - especially if they're a senior citizen who probably has limited ability to change doctors or facilities. I'm OK with some regulation of on-the-job treatment of patients.

Quote from: SHARK;1084436Exactly, Ratman. I read of something similar about that, as well as employees being fired, and tenants in apartments being evicted--if they didn't use the right pronoun prefered by the trans.

It sounds like what you're seeking is special rights for bigots to be able to say whatever they like and not get fired. I don't support that. If I call my boss a f***ot, then I can expect to get fired. Likewise, if I persistently call my male boss "she", then similarly, I can expect to get fired. That's on-the-job behavior that I control. Being able to fire me isn't some special right for trans people - it's a right that bosses generally have. If I insult or am rude to a conservative boss, they could fire me too.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1084316Nick Reikeita just dropped the news:

Beard, Harris, Bullock & Hughes of Texas are suing B.J. Hensley, Stacey Dellaforino, Jessica Price and Christopher Helton on behalf of Frog God Games.

Steve Jackson games are 100% behind FGG.

Nick delivered a message on behalf of BHB&H:  "We will be in touch."

Wow things just got real.

Quote from: jhkim;1084439That bill is specifically about regulating how an employee treats someone who is their *patient* in a long-term senior care facility. That's very different than a general free-speech case.

I will absolutely fight for the right of a bigot to be able to call someone a n***er or a f***ot or similar on the street. That's their free speech right. If someone is a *patient* of a bigot, though, that's a different situation - especially if they're a senior citizen who probably has limited ability to change doctors or facilities. I'm OK with some regulation of on-the-job treatment of patients.

In this case, it's a criminal offense. I'm all for employers being able to set reasonable expectations on employees, and being able to fire them for unacceptable behavior. But this isn't about the employer, this is about the government stepping in an making it a criminal case. (If I am reading the bill correctly)

Quote from: Antiquation!;1084381TBP put up a thread about the potential lawsuit.

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/frog-god-games-threatens-to-sue-bill-webbs-victim-and-others-read-redtext-in-post-13-before-replying-suit-not-yet-actually-filed.844987/

What's interesting is that everyone there seems to have a very dramatic opinion about it, while no one seems to have actually watched the video in question because it's "too toxic." Nobody has even mentioned the possibility that Bill Webb did not harass the alleged victim at all, it's all cries of "legally silencing the victim" without even knowing the details of what they're talking about (sort of like in the SJG thread).

They are essentially clapping their hands over their ears and screaming. How embarrassing.

I'd love to see FGG sue rpg.net out of existence for their support of this nonsense.

Quote from: goblinslayer;1084442I'd love to see FGG sue rpg.net out of existence for their support of this nonsense.

I'd say that's nearly impossible but I've heard rumors that Anime News Network could be looking down the barrel of a lawsuit with the Mignogna case, too, so hope springs eternal.

Quote from: jhkim;1084439It sounds like what you're seeking is special rights for bigots to be able to say whatever they like and not get fired. I don't support that. If I call my boss a f***ot, then I can expect to get fired. Likewise, if I persistently call my male boss "she", then similarly, I can expect to get fired.

Calling a woman a woman is not bigotry. It's a statement of fact. Trans ideology requiring mandated pronouns is an attack on reality that goes beyond previous Progressive causes. It's very like requiring people to say that the Sun goes round the Earth.

Can we split off the Pronouns thread on its own and focus on the boom which is about to be lowered upon Price et al?

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1084447Can we split off the Pronouns thread on its own and focus on the boom which is about to be lowered upon Price et al?

First, it's so very unsettling to see how much fame Jessica Price has amassed for herself following her ArenaNet shenanigans in particular. I didn't know who this Stacy person was coming into this thread, but JP...sadly yes.

Second, I haven't actually heard of something being filed in an actual court. Just some innuendo about it "coming". But most lawyers I know are very tight lipped about this kind of thing. Has there actually been some kind of legal action or is this all just a bunch of huffing and puffing? I did watch the youtube vid, but that didn't strike me as very reliable as a source.

Quote from: jhkim;1084439That bill is specifically about regulating how an employee treats someone who is their *patient* in a long-term senior care facility. That's very different than a general free-speech case.

I will absolutely fight for the right of a bigot to be able to call someone a n***er or a f***ot or similar on the street. That's their free speech right. If someone is a *patient* of a bigot, though, that's a different situation - especially if they're a senior citizen who probably has limited ability to change doctors or facilities. I'm OK with some regulation of on-the-job treatment of patients.



It sounds like what you're seeking is special rights for bigots to be able to say whatever they like and not get fired. I don't support that. If I call my boss a f***ot, then I can expect to get fired. Likewise, if I persistently call my male boss "she", then similarly, I can expect to get fired. That's on-the-job behavior that I control. Being able to fire me isn't some special right for trans people - it's a right that bosses generally have. If I insult or am rude to a conservative boss, they could fire me too.

Greetings!

No, Jhkim. I'm not seeking special rights for anyone. That includes any kinds of regulations or laws forcing normal people to participate in mentally ill people's delusions. Noone should be penalized in any way, because they didn't use some "prefered pronoun."

The whole ramping up and codification of speech codes, "hate speech" "Speech is violence" and all the other BS that SJW's love to circle-jerk themselves with is the problem. The constant intrusion of free speech so that SJW's can live in Happy Barneyland. And no, directly insulting your boss by what normal people hold isn't the issue. It is the constant wormy interpretation of whiny SJW's that is corrosive to our society. Inventing new words, and inventing new ways for someone, anyone, everywhere to always somehow be offended. And, of course, with the constant moving goal-posts of SJW's and their twisted definition of words and language usage, the definition is always growing. Then, well, if someone is offended, that means someone has to be fired, fined, or imprisoned, and or otherwise have their careers ruined. It's all part of the same float of horse shit that SJW's normally wallow in, Jhkim.

So, I don't think that new laws and new regulations and new policies need to be made for the benefit of SJW's, trans, and so on. Anyone really. Existing laws are fine. Not using some stupid pronoun isn't a crime--and shouldn't be. Noone should be punished in any way because they didn't use someone's "preferred pronoun." That's just fucking stupid. Being called by a specific pronoun--or not--is not a a special right. No one gives a fuck about someone's "preferred pronoun" except in circles of snivelling, pearl-clutching SJW's.:D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: S'mon;1084445Calling a woman a woman is not bigotry. It's a statement of fact. Trans ideology requiring mandated pronouns is an attack on reality that goes beyond previous Progressive causes. It's very like requiring people to say that the Sun goes round the Earth.

Greetings!

Exactly, my friend.:D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1084444I'd say that's nearly impossible but I've heard rumors that Anime News Network could be looking down the barrel of a lawsuit with the Mignogna case, too, so hope springs eternal.

Greetings!

Hope Springs eternal indeed! I imagine Jessica Price and Stacy D and Chris Helton will all be so shocked that they actually have to stand before a judge and answer for the things they have said.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Haffrung;1084375Wait, are we talking about the loons on RPGnet or Spinachcat? Because it's also not a moral necessity when confronted with one strain of batshit lunacy to embrace another strain of batshit lunacy. People who freak out at the very notion of someone making a pass at a woman are handwringing zealots. And people who think the only reason women go to bars is to get "pawed at by hot guys" are pathetic misogynists and probably incels to boot. The one isn't necessary to combat the other. Both are fucking obnoxious, and recognized as obnoxious by anyone who is honest and has a brain. Excusing the obnoxious idiots on your 'side' is why the Culture Warz or so toxic.

What the literal fuck are you talking about?  Have no idea, honestly.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1084450First, it's so very unsettling to see how much fame Jessica Price has amassed for herself following her ArenaNet shenanigans in particular. I didn't know who this Stacy person was coming into this thread, but JP...sadly yes.

Second, I haven't actually heard of something being filed in an actual court. Just some innuendo about it "coming". But most lawyers I know are very tight lipped about this kind of thing. Has there actually been some kind of legal action or is this all just a bunch of huffing and puffing? I did watch the youtube vid, but that didn't strike me as very reliable as a source.

Well, at the risk of "Somebody said something on the internet" quoting, Ty Beard has stated he's going to have at least one of them up in front of a judge.  It is definitely not in the best interest of an attorney, representing FGG (ostensibly) to publicly lie about a filing.  All jokes about lawyers and lying aside, he made a public statement of it.  And he told one of the people hounding Vic Mignogna "We will be in touch." and lo and behold a couple weeks later, he was (papers have been filed).  So something bad has happened, or something bad is about to happen.

As far as Price goes, my first blush with her was hearing about things between her and Paizo.  Then her dust up with Frank Mentzer.  Then her dust up with ArenaNet.  Now she's inserted herself into something that initially BJ Hensley said didn't happen at all.

So she's been at this a good while.

Quote from: SHARK;1084455Inventing new words, and inventing new ways for someone, anyone, everywhere to always somehow be offended.

Amen! Now let's apply that and stop using the term SJW to refer to these activist leftists, since that term was taking an existing term and inventing a new way to use it so that we would always have something to be offended about.

Also, Happy Barneyland is probably a relatively new way to express one's own offense and outrage and make oneself somehow offended.

(I'm not saying you're wrong. In fact, I quite agree with most of your points. I'm just less, you know... offended by it and saying we should all take a heavy dose of the medicine in the quoted line. Especially with the realization that someone was profiting off of my being outraged. And right now, this train of thought seems to be going away from things we could be less offensive about: gaming.)

Social justice isn't even justice at all.  It is bigotry disguised as justice to mock the very real concept of justice.

Quote from: jhkim;1084439It sounds like what you're seeking is special rights for bigots to be able to say whatever they like and not get fired.

Not really, it sounds like you are trying to insinuate that SHARK is guilty of WrongThink in your view and that justifies you claiming that he is a bigot. Where I come from, we call that "smearing" or "character assassination".

Quote from: Tanin Wulf;1084466Amen! Now let's apply that and stop using the term SJW to refer to these activist leftists

I agree, Social Justice Terrorists seems to be a much better fit.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1084316Nick Reikeita just dropped the news:

Beard, Harris, Bullock & Hughes of Texas are suing B.J. Hensley, Stacey Dellaforino, Jessica Price and Christopher Helton on behalf of Frog God Games.

Nick delivered a message on behalf of BHB&H:  "We will be in touch."

This should be interesting. One of the partners of BHB&H is a United States Senator.  Ty Beard, the founder of BHB&H, has taken a personal interest in this, and he specializes in libel and slander lawsuits, ...ooops.

(https://i.imgur.com/DVZbvSb.png)

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1084444I'd say that's nearly impossible but I've heard rumors that Anime News Network could be looking down the barrel of a lawsuit with the Mignogna case, too, so hope springs eternal.

The moderators there are making statements that Bill Webb is a well documented sexual harasser. They are participating in the discussion. Usually a site is somewhat safe from content posted in their forums, but in this case I have to wonder.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1084477This should be interesting. One of the partners of BHB&H is a United States Senator.  Ty Beard, the founder of BHB&H, has taken a personal interest in this, and he specializes in libel and slander lawsuits, ...ooops.

(https://i.imgur.com/DVZbvSb.png)

Gonna be a hot time in the old town tonight!

Shots Fired (https://youtu.be/HMThCmRezFw?t=9687)!

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084017He also was not disinvited as a special guest/guest of honor, he backed out himself rather than cause more issues for the con organizers.

Which really pissed them off, because it's hard to call someone toxic when they're being anything but.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1084156So, my contention remains why we're litigating this case here at all.

It never hurts to collect and correlate facts.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084169No one needs to prove anything to me in particular. I depend on con organizers to make decisions and the right start if there is an accusation is to remove the accused from the site of the accusation is even reasonable. I had to investigate workplace fraud years ago earlier in my career and worked in the same team that investigated sexual harassment claims (that was HR, I am in Finance). I quickly went from assuming everyone was innocent to suspend them and investigate with an almost certain chance that the accusation is true enough that you don't want the accused working at your company anymore.

And you know what? I'd be OK with that if there were reparations for being falsely or unfairly accused in these situations. Without that a life can be ruined on an accusation. which is not a thing I'm willing to tolerate.

Quote from: Dan Davenport;1084184The Tangency cesspool finally overflowed and filled up the rest of the site.

#ContainmentBreach

Quote from: David Johansen;1084199I've got mixed feelings about Tangency.  I learned a lot there, about logic, and debating, and people.

It was great back in the day, but everything changed when the fire nation attacked...

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1084316Nick Reikeita just dropped the news:

Beard, Harris, Bullock & Hughes of Texas are suing B.J. Hensley, Stacey Dellaforino, Jessica Price and Christopher Helton on behalf of Frog God Games.

Steve Jackson games are 100% behind FGG.

Nick delivered a message on behalf of BHB&H:  "We will be in touch."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvqJ1mTkEuY

Interesting.

Quote from: S'mon;1084331my understanding is that libel is a tough sell in the USA, unlike here in UK

That's why they're going with Tortious Interference.

Quote from: S'mon;1084331Suing Hensley (the person Webb apparently hit on at Paizocon) seems very odd, given that she seems to have behaved decently the whole time, and this is likely to cost a lot of public sympathy.

Maybe, but her statements are so inconsistent yet fundamental to the case there isn't really any other choice. She's also allied with and endorsed those trying to take Bill down.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1084381TBP put up a thread about the potential lawsuit.

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/frog-god-games-threatens-to-sue-bill-webbs-victim-and-others-read-redtext-in-post-13-before-replying-suit-not-yet-actually-filed.844987/

Shame you have to have an account to see it.

Quote from: jhkim;1084384Nick Rekieta is claiming that this cigarette story what happened in his video, but I haven't seen that from any of the previous descriptions of the incident.

Quote from: jhkim;1084384Has anyone seen this cigarette story from anywhere other than Rekieta's video? What is his source for that?

Quote from: jhkim;1084404The Youtuber Rekieta is actually pretty specific about some details of offering a cigarette with room key and id with them. The strange thing is that I've never heard that story previously for this incident, and it doesn't match any previous statement from either side of what happened. I'm curious where he got that.

The source is Bill Webb, and the reason you haven't heard it before is because he hasn't said anything in his defense until now.

Quote from: wmarshal;1084412If this is truly over an offer of a cigarette I have to wonder why FGG admitted bad behavior to anything.

Quote from: Lurtch;1084414I bet they they thought admitting guilt and promising to do better would make it go away. Unfortunately, that isn't something that works with SJWs.

This.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084425[ATTACH=CONFIG]3342[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3343[/ATTACH]

One popular story is that in the supposed incident at Paizo Con, Bill Webb assaulted someone. Above is what actually happened. Someone took it upon themselves to grab him and hurt themselves.

Makes you wonder how much more exaggeration there is around this?

Do you have archives or direct links to these #Tweets? Because the images are small, cannot be found on Google, and cannot be archived from here because they're attachments.

Quote from: jeff37923;1084474I agree, Social Justice Terrorists seems to be a much better fit.

Technically, more accurate, as well.

https://twitter.com/amazonchique/status/1119247088582189056?s=21

Posted this before but did not post for some reason.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084482The moderators there are making statements that Bill Webb is a well documented sexual harasser. They are participating in the discussion. Usually a site is somewhat safe from content posted in their forums, but in this case I have to wonder.

Safe harbor provisions usually only apply when you're not an active curator of the content. I'm not an expert on what all the ins and outs are there, but I think there might be a strong argument to make that TBP does not fall under safe harbor. Maybe.

Quote from: jeff37923;1084474I agree, Social Justice Terrorists seems to be a much better fit.

I'd prefer, "People not deserving of my contempt." Much like actual terrorists. Contempt requires a lot of work.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1084491And you know what? I'd be OK with that if there were reparations for being falsely or unfairly accused in these situations. Without that a life can be ruined on an accusation. which is not a thing I'm willing to tolerate.

There is, but it requires the party who made the false accusation to actually have some assets worth going after them for.

Quote from: S'mon;1083526They have been trying to expand the definition of harassment to single interactions. A guy asks a girl out and she says no, they want that to be harassment if she didn't enjoy the approach. So being hit on by a charming bad boy is not harassment but being hit on by an awkward nerd is.

Lets not forget the whole ploy of "Oh I said yes at the time but now I dont like him so that was really rape."

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084507https://twitter.com/amazonchique/status/1119247088582189056?s=21

Posted this before but did not post for some reason.

Thank you! And it looks like someone archived it a hour ago too ;)

Concerningly, this did not come up on either a #Google or #Twitter search for me.

Quote from: Tanin Wulf;1084516There is, but it requires the party who made the false accusation to actually have some assets worth going after them for.

And that's the problem.

People with nothing to lose have been given the power to bring whoever they want down to their level.

#CrabBucket.

Quote from: Haffrung;1084098There's nothing wrong with getting drunk, even if you're married and a father.

Off topic maybee. From decades of experience with multiple family members and now a former player who drink heavily and get drunk. I have to very disagree with the idea that there is nothing wrong with getting drunk. There is alot wrong. The least of which is judgement impairment and then stepping up from there. And unfortunately I have seen every step up all the way to attempted homicide and attempted suicide. And in one case it cost someone their life and utterly destroyed anothers.

Or were you really meaning getting slightly tipsy or just a mild buzz? But even that can and often will leave judgement impaired a little.

Where this comes back on topic on the Webb case is the question of wether he was actually drunk? Or was he just buzzing and probably not thinking exactly clearly?

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1084191Besides, turn over your average internet SJW and you've got a more-than-even-chance of finding a degenerate anyway.  Normal, non-controversial (to anyone else) behavior such as flirting, or so on, that's a sin to them.  But the bulk of them will defend degenerate behavior, or at least engage in hypocrisy about it.

The hypocrisy runs deep in some SJW circles, that's for sure, and not only on the internet. My wife's former boss was a very influential professor and dean whose line of work was, basically, social justice for workers. I know for a fact that she's had some influence on political candidates like Hillary Clinton. She's working for equality and better work conditions around the world. Her stances on official issues would go from (in my view) reasonable (such as better rules for maternal/paternal leave for workers) to a bit cuckoo (both men and women should be able to do either male or female roles in Hollywood, because there's no difference apparently). But she was a complete hypocrite, as it is really all about her career. She would whip her own employees around like something I have rarely heard of from the most cynical bosses, making them work ungodly (and illegal) amount of hours with no overtime, and giving her workers psychological problems in the process. If she disagreed with someone she would ridicule and grind them to dust at official meetings, so everyone could see how "stupid" they were. The university did not catch on to any of this until she picked a fight with the university leadership, and she's now been demoted (although in her words she "decided not to renew her deanship").

For the record, hypocrisy can be found in all sorts of places, but in some cases it just seems so jarring given their line of their "life's work". Sorry, just needed to rant a bit :D

Quote from: Omega;1084524Off topic maybee. From decades of experience with multiple family members and now a former player who drink heavily and get drunk. I have to very disagree with the idea that there is nothing wrong with getting drunk. There is alot wrong. The least of which is judgement impairment and then stepping up from there. And unfortunately I have seen every step up all the way to attempted homicide and attempted suicide. And in one case it cost someone their life and utterly destroyed anothers.

Or were you really meaning getting slightly tipsy or just a mild buzz? But even that can and often will leave judgement impaired a little.

Where this comes back on topic on the Webb case is the question of wether he was actually drunk? Or was he just buzzing and probably not thinking exactly clearly?

Really...

Quote from: jhkimNick Rekieta is claiming that this cigarette story what happened in his video, but I haven't seen that from any of the previous descriptions of the incident.

Quote from: jhkimHas anyone seen this cigarette story from anywhere other than Rekieta's video? What is his source for that?

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1084491The source is Bill Webb, and the reason you haven't heard it before is because he hasn't said anything in his defense until now.

Thanks. Has Webb posted his account of this anywhere, or was it a private communication to Rekieta?

I found Rekieta's video misleading, because makes it sound like the cigarette story is what others are accusing Webb of - when his video is the first mention of the story, and it has no resemblance to the prior accusation. Right or wrong, the accusation is that he drunkenly stalked a woman through the halls until a con staff member intervened to stop him.

I almost regret that I do not have an account at rpg.net so I cannot read the other thread, and then I remember why I would not want to post there.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084547I almost regret that I do not have an account at rpg.net so I cannot read the other thread, and then I remember why I would not want to post there.

RPG.net is the cancer that is killing table top gaming.

Which is a goal of a great number of its users, I would wager.

Quote from: jhkim;1084538Thanks. Has Webb posted his account of this anywhere, or was it a private communication to Rekieta?

I found Rekieta's video misleading, because makes it sound like the cigarette story is what others are accusing Webb of - when his video is the first mention of the story.

This entire statement is not true except for perhaps, the very first part. What you probably meant to say though, is that you found Rekieta's video confusing because this is perhaps the very first time you have heard an account of just some of what may have actually happened at the convention, right? Also what do you suppose the odds are, ...this is what actually occurred two years ago?

Quote from: jhkimThanks. Has Webb posted his account of this anywhere, or was it a private communication to Rekieta?

I found Rekieta's video misleading, because makes it sound like the cigarette story is what others are accusing Webb of - when his video is the first mention of the story.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1084562This entire statement is not true.

Can you clarify what you mean there?  Has there been a previous mention of the cigarette story?  If so, could you link it?  I haven't seen it in previous discussion, and Anon Adderlan seemed to confirm that.

Quote from: jhkim;1084563Can you clarify what you mean there?  Has there been a previous mention of the cigarette story?  If so, could you link it?  I haven't seen it in previous discussion, and Anon Adderlan seemed to confirm that.

No. Yes. No. Probably the best place for people to learn about this is on Nick Reiketa's Youtube channel, since it seems that attorneys are now using media and public forums to demonstrate some of the finer points of law. It is obviously illegal in Texas to damage someone's business or reputation by making unsubstantiated or false claims about them, which seems perfectly reasonable to me.

This is a free country, and everyone is free to dislike who they want. It is not ok though for the general public to destroy anyone's livelihood though, or to continuously harrass, stalk, or lie about them, or to damage their reputation or friendships.

Definition of libel
a published false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation; a written defamation.
synonyms:   defamation, defamation of character, character assassination, calumny, misrepresentation, scandalmongering; aspersions, denigration, vilification, disparagement, derogation, insult, slander, malicious gossip, tittle-tattle, traducement;
lie, slur, smear, untruth, false insinuation, false report, smear campaign, slight, innuendo, rumor;
informal mudslinging; informal bad-mouthing;

Definition of defamation of character
"Defamation of character" is a catch-all term for any statement that hurts someone's reputation. Written defamation is called "libel," while spoken defamation is called "slander." Defamation is not a crime, but it is a "tort" (a civil wrong, rather than a criminal wrong).

Quote from: GameDaddy;1084569No. Yes. No. Probably the best place for people to learn about this is on Nick Reiketa's Youtube channel, since it seems that attorneys are now using media and public forums to demonstrate some of the finer points of law. It is obviously illegal in Texas to damage someone's business or reputation by making unsubstantiated or false claims about them, which seems perfectly reasonable to me.

I completely agree that making false claims to damage someone's business should be punished. If Brookes and/or Hensley lied about what Webb did at PaizoCon 2017 - then they and anyone knowingly passing along their lies should be held responsible. If those claims were truthful, though, then they should not be punished.

I have no opinion on whether Brookes and/or Hensley lied at this point.

Reiketa's Youtube video fails to mention what Brookes and Hensley actually said, and instead reports only this cigarette story. Regardless of whether the cigarette story is true or not, that's not what Webb has been accused of. I'd be interested to hear his side of the story, and I'd prefer to hear it as he tells it rather than second-hand through Reiketa.

https://twitter.com/sphynxian/status/882439561237995520?s=21

This is one of the original reports that started everything. Note the actual report and note the distortions that have appeared since then.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084577https://twitter.com/sphynxian/status/882439561237995520?s=21

This is one of the original reports that started everything. Note the actual report and note the distortions that have appeared since then.

The actual report says nothing. That Twitter thread gives you nothing. We don't know anything.

Quote from: Tanin Wulf;1084513Safe harbor provisions usually only apply when you're not an active curator of the content. I'm not an expert on what all the ins and outs are there, but I think there might be a strong argument to make that TBP does not fall under safe harbor. Maybe.

Well, making someone a moderator sure seems like it would be a slam dunk if you wanted to establish an express authority argument for agency.  Once you have people controlling expression and making definitive statements as an agent of the site, I would think safe harbor would be out of the question.

Quote from: Xisiqomelir;1084402On the adjunct discussion, if she tells you to stop, please be the gentleman you were raised to be and stop. If she (hopefully) digs it, you two might do as innumerable couples have done before you and forge a successful relationship from a chance meeting at the bar.

This is one of the mistakes that we've made (myself, quite notably so) in this thread, and in similar, other ones:

We're being distracted by discussions that are accessible to us. We don't need to define and micro-define "drinking", "gentlemanship", or "harassment", even though that's tempting: We need to assess which of the stories we're being told in this one case is true.  That we're not willing to adopt the accuser's general worldview or sign system doesn't make us partisan. It makes us objective.

Webb has repeatedly been called a "well documented sexual harasser". Nobody is being "anti-women" or "pro-harassment" for saying that we won't accept those severe allegations at face value.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084482The moderators there are making statements that Bill Webb is a well documented sexual harasser. They are participating in the discussion. Usually a site is somewhat safe from content posted in their forums, but in this case I have to wonder.

This is why the lawsuit is so interesting; if this extends to RPGNet - or to places like this one, as well -, it could bring lasting change to the scene as a whole. - Stuff like what happened to me suddenly could become significant; I was handed a temp-ban for asking for further explanations of the allegations against Webb.

If it could be proven that Skatos Ltd. (?) ordered their unpayed employees/mods, in any way, to go hard on Webb, then that could be tough for them because this could well be characterized as Applecline trying to get rid of a competitor.

Quote from: jhkim;1084574I completely agree that making false claims to damage someone's business should be punished. If Brookes and/or Hensley lied about what Webb did at PaizoCon 2017 - then they and anyone knowingly passing along their lies should be held responsible. If those claims were truthful, though, then they should not be punished.

This. The people accusing Webb of harassment are making statements that are damaging his reputation, both as a professional, and as a private individual. So, they are in dire need back them up, or to apologize.

I think that Paizo Con did the right thing a few years ago if they asked Bill Webb to leave. The policy of believing the accuser, taking them seriously is important for safety for con attendees. Believing the accuser means taking action as if the accusation was true and treating it seriously. It does not mean unquestioning acceptance of an investigation reveals otherwise and it does not mean launching a crusade against the accused on social media.

It appears that Total Con is inviting Bill Webb back. He has attended several other cons since the incident took place. The initial report by his partners said they instructed him to act differently. Since I trust the con organizers in many other ways, I am willing to accept their judgment on a guest. If I disagree, I can either not go or I can go and avoid the guest. I also don't mind complaining about it in public in terms of attending the con, but there are limits to this.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084608It appears that Total Con is inviting Bill Webb back. He has attended several other cons since the incident took place. The initial report by his partners said they instructed him to act differently. Since I trust the con organizers in many other ways, I am willing to accept their judgment on a guest. If I disagree, I can either not go or I can go and avoid the guest. I also don't mind complaining about it in public in terms of attending the con, but there are limits to this.

TBP brigading SJW mob is having another meltdown. I swear whenever things do not go exact their way their so called fake naivety and innocence makes my day. "What do you mean totalcon invited Webb back. How dare they? " Sorry but most SJWs do not buy product and all they do is make a lot of white noise until they get what they want. Then they go off so why would most cons or rpg companies give a fuck.

It's funny to me seeing TBP gamers list all the rpgs that are now banned from their collection. Pretty soon all they will have for enjoyment is an adult coloring book and crayons.

They don't get that Frog God Games and Bill Webb was a guest last year and that must have been a very good experience to want him back. I don't think there is much upside constantly kowtowing to the perpetually outraged.

However, cons need a good and enforced anti-harassment policy. There are problem attendees and the general public should be safe within reason. If there is a reported issue, then ask the accused to leave unless it is a ridiculous accusation. There is always time to look into it later, error in the side of safety.

The internet concern mobs are stupid and they parse words too much and that does not make anyone any more safe.

They'll pry my coloring books and crayons from my cold, dead hands. :mad:

That said, I feel it is good this totalitarian group think is facing legal repurcussions for dabbling into unprotected speech for means of vigilantism. We made such speech unprotected for a very good reason. This is an old issue (older than the USA, by far) and we already built tools to prevent its excesses -- use them! :)

Of course some on TBP have to point out that the honor guest list is all male of course. If the offer is made yo invite women and they refuse for whatever reason. Are cons suddenly supposed to stop inviting guests of honor simply because it's an all male list. It shows the perpetually outraged have no clue how to run a business let alone a gaming con imo.

So I'm going to go to a con with no guest list because said con biwed to SJW pressure and could not get woman guest of honor to attend so they invite no guest of honor. So I'm paying for the pleasure of gaming when I can stay at home and so for free no thanks.

Quote from: sureshot;1084618Of course some on TBP have to point out that the honor guest list is all male of course. If the offer is made yo invite women and they refuse for whatever reason. Are cons suddenly supposed to stop inviting guests of honor simply because it's an all male list. It shows the perpetually outraged have no clue how to run a business let alone a gaming con imo.

So I'm going to go to a con with no guest list because said con biwed to SJW pressure and could not get woman guest of honor to attend so they invite no guest of honor. So I'm paying for the pleasure of gaming when I can stay at home and so for free no thanks.

Greetings!

LOL. Indeed, my friend. Who gives a fuck if there aren't any women on the fucking hornoured gues list? Geesus. I know there are some women involved with the gaming industry in professional ways. From year to year it's not some terrible atrocity if there are no women on the honoured guest list. There will be lots of women attending the cons though as ordinary guests. That's just fine. All these morons wanting a crying, shrieking shit-storm over the stupidist of things.:D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Rafael;1084604Webb has repeatedly been called a "well documented sexual harasser". Nobody is being "anti-women" or "pro-harassment" for saying that we won't accept those severe allegations at face value.

I've played in Bill Webb's convention games what, three or four times? Seen him at at least six conventions total. That dude is 1) super friendly, 2) extremely high strung, 3) and drinks heavily. His wife and kids are usually with him, which makes this whole thing seem suspect...at 2AM when someone has been drinking throughout the entire day still seems 100% lucid and "into gaming", while talking about his kids in front of a bunch of gamers with his wife present, it almost makes zero sense to me he'd be hitting on some young girl. Like when would he have the time? The dude is frantic as shit, running a ton of games and basically shilling his company. I'm inclined to agree with the whole offered the girl a cigarette and she freaked out. Even if it was a pass, so what? FGG telling Bill Webb to avoid talking to young autistic millennials who take everything out of context? Could totally see that happening. Bill Webb sexually assaulting someone? Nope.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084615However, cons need a good and enforced anti-harassment policy. There are problem attendees and the general public should be safe within reason. If there is a reported issue, then ask the accused to leave unless it is a ridiculous accusation.

You don't need an exploitable "anti-harassment policy" to do that, though.

Makes me wonder if bars and pubs now need anti-harassment policies to kick out drunks.

They even may be freaking out over a placeholder list that just is a copy from last year.

S'mon, I am sorry, but any good policy can be exploited if someone has bad intentions. More often than not a good policy that encourages reporting of issues helps. It keeps the creeps more in check and encourages them to be reported and taken care of. It was not the Paizo policy and action that was an issue, it was the assumption mob afterwards. In the original Enworld thread you were fine throwing Webb under the bus if he was drunk and misbehaving.

Quote from: Almost_Useless;1084584Well, making someone a moderator sure seems like it would be a slam dunk if you wanted to establish an express authority argument for agency.  Once you have people controlling expression and making definitive statements as an agent of the site, I would think safe harbor would be out of the question.

It's not quite that cut and dry though. YouTube still falls under Safe Harbor provisions, even though it is actually capable of curating its content (although that may come under fire very soon as part of the reason the Safe Harbor parts of the DCMA were put in place was because companies were saying, "We seriously cannot curate this much data!" Well... now you're showing you can, so either stop curating it or be subject to the lawsuit).

For instance, there are many things said on this board that could be viewed as defamation or libel (but good luck proving damages beyond nominal). Should the Pundit be held accountable for all those things said on his board? Your answer may color how you would apply Safe Harbor provisions (which is what a jury would likely have to do).

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084627In the original Enworld thread you were fine throwing Webb under the bus if he was drunk and misbehaving.

LOL. Do you have a cite?

I've always said that misbehaving drunks should be ejected from the premises. I'm pretty sure I never called for Webb to have his livelihood destroyed.

Edit: Do you mean this (http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?4613-Harassment-At-PaizoCon-2017)?

S'mon - Tuesday, 24th October, 2017, 06:24 PM Report Post
This Robert Brookes is certainly a busy little bee. That's two scalps in less than a week.

I expect Webb did make an off-colour remark. I'd be a lot more surprised if he really physically attacked a Paizo employee, so I wonder what was behind that allegation.

& then
S'mon - Tuesday, 24th October, 2017, 11:17 PM Report Post
Yes, this drunkenly following her around the hotel thing sounds pretty bad.

& then
S'mon - Wednesday, 25th October, 2017, 08:08 AM Report Post
Quote Originally Posted by billd91  View Post
>>My wife and daughter aren't as safe as I am in this world<<
That's not true and you'd be unwise to believe it; men are a lot more likely to be physically attacked than women.

That's just the first 2 pages, but I'm mostly seeing me push back, if anything, and being criticised for lack of outrage. Quite brave of me in fact. To quote Captain Marvel, I was quite the noble warrior hero.  :p

I didn't go off on an anti-SocJus rant because (a) I'd be banned and (b) if Hensley had been harrassed that would be the wrong thing to do. I don't believe in "Believe All Women" but I don't believe in "Disbelieve* All Women" either.

*I guess the wonder of theRPGsite is you can be attacked here both for not Believing AND for not Disbelieving! :D

Quote from: S'mon;1084624You don't need an exploitable "anti-harassment policy" to do that, though.

Makes me wonder if bars and pubs now need anti-harassment policies to kick out drunks.

That's a good question. Why do gaming conventions need a different set of rules from bars?

Quote from: S'mon;1084624You don't need an exploitable "anti-harassment policy" to do that, though.

Makes me wonder if bars and pubs now need anti-harassment policies to kick out drunks.

Greetings!

Hey there my friend! Good points. I don't really understand all of the sobbing hysteria that conventions need to form committees, and have uber anti-harassment policies in place, and blah, blah, blah. Fucking many years ago, I used to do professional security, at various businesses and locations. Most "policies" is having a pair of large, buffed and hard charging professional security officers pull some jackass into a side hall, after questioning any other salient parties, and saying, hey, fuckstick, act like a jackass to her again, or anyone, and one of two things happen; (1) We throw you the fuck out of here; (2) If you are really clueless, we not only throw you the fuck outta here, but we also have our friends in the police waiting at the door to arrest you, and take you to jail.

Are we clear?:D

Such policies work wonders in all manner of social entanglements where there are "patrons" as guests at a location where management expects people to have fun, and conduct themselves with courtesy, manners, and decorum. This isn't rocket science. Whether such security teams are uniformed, or merely wearing suit and tie, armed and unarmed, such security forces work quite well. That's why there's a bazillion businesses and locations everywhere that employ them.

Except when dealing with drunk people, such security presence works the vast majority of the time, with few problems. Bar and club security typically have riders which permit them swift physical responses against whatever drunk problems there may be. I have a couple of Hispanic friends that do security. Big, hard looking guys, armed to the teeth. At their clubs, yeah, patrons say oh, I'm sorry sir, right away. They fucking behave or they get fucking jackhammered. These guys don't fucking play games. There's a fuckload of interpersonal arguments and problems between patrons/guests/customers/fans that get sorted out just fine with no threats required, merely forcing two parties to shut the fuck up, calm down, and show some respect for each other. And so on, lots of actual disputes and issues dealt with successfully, all without social media drama and all the hand-wringing BS.

I'm honestly having a hard time believing that if these fucking conventions actually had some on-point professional security, that there would be virtually zero problems. There is no need for "Anti-Harassment" policies. Just some professional security teams and management that doesn't tolerate BS from anyone.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Haffrung;1084633That's a good question. Why do gaming conventions need a different set of rules from bars?

Well, just to get started, bars are for adults age 21+. gaming conventions cater to all ages.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1084637Well, just to get started, bars are for adults age 21+. gaming conventions cater to all ages.

Explain why this indicates an anti-harassment policy.

(I regularly play D&D in pubs with children BTW, my own & those of friends etc.)

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084608I think that Paizo Con did the right thing a few years ago if they asked Bill Webb to leave. The policy of believing the accuser, taking them seriously is important for safety for con attendees. Believing the accuser means taking action as if the accusation was true and treating it seriously. It does not mean unquestioning acceptance of an investigation reveals otherwise and it does not mean launching a crusade against the accused on social media.

It appears that Total Con is inviting Bill Webb back. He has attended several other cons since the incident took place. The initial report by his partners said they instructed him to act differently. Since I trust the con organizers in many other ways, I am willing to accept their judgment on a guest. If I disagree, I can either not go or I can go and avoid the guest. I also don't mind complaining about it in public in terms of attending the con, but there are limits to this.

"Believing the accuser" always leads to ugly results, lynchings back in the day and now virtual lynchings. No, the convention needs to investigate prior to taking any action, and both the name of the accuser, the accused and the thing must be kept under wraps unless it's proven that something happened, BY THE EFFING POLICE!

The convention isn't a law enforcement organization and knows jack shit about investigating a crime, things have come to a point that if you didn't go to the police and start talking in social media I assume you're lying.

Innocent until proven guilty isn't only the law, it's a good idea, rather 10 guilty ppl go free than 1 innocent is unjustly incarcerated.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1084645"Believing the accuser" always leads to ugly results, lynchings back in the day and now virtual lynchings. No, the convention needs to investigate prior to taking any action, and both the name of the accuser, the accused and the thing must be kept under wraps unless it's proven that something happened, BY THE EFFING POLICE!

The convention isn't a law enforcement organization and knows jack shit about investigating a crime, things have come to a point that if you didn't go to the police and start talking in social media I assume you're lying.

Innocent until proven guilty isn't only the law, it's a good idea, rather 10 guilty ppl go free than 1 innocent is unjustly incarcerated.

Greetings!

I agree, GeekyBugle. However, whenever any of us have suggested or referenced others that have said such people should call the police, in such matters the alleged "victims" and all of the sobbing cucks bristle at you for suggesting getting the police involved and filing charges. They always have a dozen convenient excuses about why the police were not called, or why filing a report with police won't somehow be sufficient.

Amazing. If you or a friend, etc, where harassed in some other venue--parades, concerts, events, what have you--security would be called, and the problem swiftly dealt with, and/or police would be summoned, reports made, and the problm solved. Somehow, though, none of those normal procedures are sufficient for a game convention.

Instead, we have to have endless social media drama and lynch mobs, ruin companies and reputations, and have ideological boycotts. All with zero real evidence, but lots of shrieking and sobbing.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Brad;1084623I've played in Bill Webb's convention games what, three or four times? Seen him at at least six conventions total. That dude is 1) super friendly, 2) extremely high strung, 3) and drinks heavily. His wife and kids are usually with him, which makes this whole thing seem suspect...at 2AM when someone has been drinking throughout the entire day still seems 100% lucid and "into gaming", while talking about his kids in front of a bunch of gamers with his wife present, it almost makes zero sense to me he'd be hitting on some young girl. Like when would he have the time? The dude is frantic as shit, running a ton of games and basically shilling his company. I'm inclined to agree with the whole offered the girl a cigarette and she freaked out. Even if it was a pass, so what? FGG telling Bill Webb to avoid talking to young autistic millennials who take everything out of context? Could totally see that happening. Bill Webb sexually assaulting someone? Nope.

My experiences with Bill are very similar and my conclusion's the same.

Quote from: SHARK;1084648Greetings!

I agree, GeekyBugle. However, whenever any of us have suggested or referenced others that have said such people should call the police, in such matters the alleged "victims" and all of the sobbing cucks bristle at you for suggesting getting the police involved and filing charges. They always have a dozen convenient excuses about why the police were not called, or why filing a report with police won't somehow be sufficient.

Amazing. If you or a friend, etc, where harassed in some other venue--parades, concerts, events, what have you--security would be called, and the problem swiftly dealt with, and/or police would be summoned, reports made, and the problm solved. Somehow, though, none of those normal procedures are sufficient for a game convention.

Instead, we have to have endless social media drama and lynch mobs, ruin companies and reputations, and have ideological boycotts. All with zero real evidence, but lots of shrieking and sobbing.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Hey there Shark!

They don't want the police involved because then they loose the power to destroy lives without a single shred of evidence, never mind what excuses they give you, it's only excuses.

And worst of all, lets say something did happen, is the accuser's word enough to prove who did it? Not in a court of law, and this is smart, because if you jail an innocent then the guilty party is still out there, free to do it over and over again and it will be harder to find him/her.

So, in every case if you really want the guilty to pay you need to involve the police and let them investigate and accept the outcome, sure some guilty ppl will go free for lack of evidence. Way better than getting an innocent in jail and have the serial offend free to do bad shit no?

Therefore, since it doesn't make sense to ask "believe the "victim"". I must assume it's not about justice but about power.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1084651Hey there Shark!

They don't want the police involved because then they loose the power to destroy lives without a single shred of evidence, never mind what excuses they give you, it's only excuses.

And worst of all, lets say something did happen, is the accuser's word enough to prove who did it? Not in a court of law, and this is smart, because if you jail an innocent then the guilty party is still out there, free to do it over and over again and it will be harder to find him/her.

So, in every case if you really want the guilty to pay you need to involve the police and let them investigate and accept the outcome, sure some guilty ppl will go free for lack of evidence. Way better than getting an innocent in jail and have the serial offend free to do bad shit no?

Therefore, since it doesn't make sense to ask "believe the "victim"". I must assume it's not about justice but about power.

Greetings!

Exactly, GeekyBugle! Damn straight. It isn't a damn thing to do with "justice"--and everything to do with power. Pundit in his videos talks all the time about how SJW's are seeking to invade our hobby, and gain power to control it, in virtually every way. Of course, none of these simpering twits would *ever* lie through their teeth, making false accusations, would they?:D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1084653Greetings!

Exactly, GeekyBugle! Damn straight. It isn't a damn thing to do with "justice"--and everything to do with power. Pundit in his videos talks all the time about how SJW's are seeking to invade our hobby, and gain power to control it, in virtually every way. Of course, none of these simpering twits would *ever* lie through their teeth, making false accusations, would they?:D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Those bastions of moral virtue lie? Surely you jest good sir! :D

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1084656Those bastions of moral virtue lie? Surely you jest good sir! :D

Greetings!

LOL!!!! Ah, yes. I love it.:D Oh, and GeekyBugle?

Welcome to the forum here, friend!

This is the best game forum site on the internet. Unlike many sites filled with crazed troglodytes, and supervised by jackboot moderators with delusions of power--here you will find a very high percentage of outstanding people, from many different backgrounds. You may be surprised to learn that many here are military veterans; we have a good array of writers, scholars, and game designers; there are several professors, mathematicians, a few scientists from physics to biology; also musicians and artists; and computer tech people in abundance. The professional and educational experiences of many are all very diverse, interesting, and entertaining at times as well from lots of cool little stories from their lives.

Pour a drink, light up a fine cigar. The "Smoking Lamp" is lit. Make yourself at home here amongst the crew.;)

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1084658Greetings!

LOL!!!! Ah, yes. I love it.:D Oh, and GeekyBugle?

Welcome to the forum here, friend!

This is the best game forum site on the internet. Unlike many sites filled with crazed troglodytes, and supervised by jackboot moderators with delusions of power--here you will find a very high percentage of outstanding people, from many different backgrounds. You may be surprised to learn that many here are military veterans; we have a good array of writers, scholars, and game designers; there are several professors, mathematicians, a few scientists from physics to biology; also musicians and artists; and computer tech people in abundance. The professional and educational experiences of many are all very diverse, interesting, and entertaining at times as well from lots of cool little stories from their lives.

Pour a drink, light up a fine cigar. The "Smoking Lamp" is lit. Make yourself at home here amongst the crew.;)

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Thanks for the welcome, I know Pundit, have made one livestream with him on my channel of the same name. We agree there's a problem in the TTRPG industry and have been saying so for sometime now. Even when many told us we were wrong, seeing things, reading too much etc.

Hardly a week goes by without something coming to light that proves us right. We need to build an alternative to drivethru, we need to boycott any con that bends the knee to the Baizuo, same with the game publishers.

Too early here to drink, but will be having a scotch latter, stopped smoking a little over a year ago. But you go ahead and smoke what you like.

Quote from: SHARK;1084636sorted out just fine with no threats required, merely forcing two parties to shut the fuck up, calm down, and show some respect for each other.

Very good general advice, methinks.  From the playground to the boardroom!  

QuoteI'm honestly having a hard time believing that if these fucking conventions actually had some on-point professional security, that there would be virtually zero problems. There is no need for "Anti-Harassment" policies. Just some professional security teams and management that doesn't tolerate BS from anyone.

I guess the problem is the cost.

The biggest con I go to is UK Games Expo. Its internal security (i.e. really badge checking for room entry) is by gamer volunteers. I guess that does bring in problems of gamer/geek social fallacies-is-the wrong-word-but-the-observation-is-not-unhelpful thing. I don't know what briefing/training those guys get.

The bars are secured by hotel or convention venue staff.

Now, the tickets for the con aren't very expensive compared to the overall costs of travel and hotels but I assume that they are priced with an understanding that if they were more expensive it would hit attendance. Most attendees are not old fart grognards like me but as we normally go as a family, the £80 for the family for three days isn't negligible. (i.e. that's 2 -3 game books or board games).

What's the marginal cost for expert security?  For many rooms for very long days of gaming? I think if that ticket hit £100 if would be a problem.  The Saturday only adult ticket is £13. I imagine that if that went up to £15 it would have little effect.  

I think it's only busy city centre clubs that have serious security in England. If you need crowd control it's because you have a crowd and that's a lot of alcohol income funding it per hour.

Cheers!

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1084659Thanks for the welcome, I know Pundit, have made one livestream with him on my channel of the same name. We agree there's a problem in the TTRPG industry and have been saying so for sometime now. Even when many told us we were wrong, seeing things, reading too much etc.

Do you have a link to your channel?

Quote from: Snowman0147;1084667Do you have a link to your channel?

Sure do, isn't posting it against the rules?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjC7-w5KDKNiD-k0tVo1DPw?view_as=subscriber

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1084668Sure do, isn't posting it against the rules?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjC7-w5KDKNiD-k0tVo1DPw?view_as=subscriber

Don't know, but could had done by pm.  I should had asked about that in pm now that I am thinking on it.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1084672Don't know, but could had done by pm.  I should had asked about that in pm now that I am thinking on it.

Yeah, should have tought of that, I'm turning into a boomer.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1084673Yeah, should have tought of that, I'm turning into a boomer.

I think we both are turning into boomers.

For those not following both threads related to Bill Webb at the moment, I'm also posting this here. He has come out with an official statement related to the incidents in question.

https://froggodgames.com/frogs/statement-by-bill-webb/?fbclid=IwAR2SnzK2mmpX5HgZnm8r3vVik-Azjh47kw6NBE3BLOGTgrK9pk-3TO393X4

Quote from: Antiquation!;1084676For those not following both threads related to Bill Webb at the moment, I'm also posting this here. He has come out with an official statement related to the incidents in question.

https://froggodgames.com/frogs/statement-by-bill-webb/?fbclid=IwAR2SnzK2mmpX5HgZnm8r3vVik-Azjh47kw6NBE3BLOGTgrK9pk-3TO393X4

Apologizing didn't help Vic Mignogna not one single bit, I don't know why Bill Webb thinks this will help him.  If he starts off on the "I was wrong" foot, he is handing his opponents 30% of the points.  He's conceding the first quarter of the game, and it's not entirely obvious if he can make up the points.  If Ty Beard is representing him I sincerely, sincerely hope he OK'd this before Bill put it up.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1084676For those not following both threads related to Bill Webb at the moment, I'm also posting this here. He has come out with an official statement related to the incidents in question.

https://froggodgames.com/frogs/statement-by-bill-webb/?fbclid=IwAR2SnzK2mmpX5HgZnm8r3vVik-Azjh47kw6NBE3BLOGTgrK9pk-3TO393X4

Poor sap, does he think the hyenas are going to read that and go away? Doesn't he know to them even speaking to a woman without her consent is the same as sexual assault? (Grabs a humongous pop corn bag and prepares for the category 5 shitstorm about to ensue.)

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1084677Apologizing didn't help Vic Mignogna not one single bit, I don't know why Bill Webb thinks this will help him.  If he starts off on the "I was wrong" foot, he is handing his opponents 30% of the points.  He's conceding the first quarter of the game, and it's not entirely obvious if he can make up the points.  If Ty Beard is representing him I sincerely, sincerely hope he OK'd this before Bill put it up.

On the one hand, yes. Apologizing is taken as admission of guilt, and encourages further harassment.
On the other had, his statement also contradicts all the other claims, about spiking drinks, raping busses full of nuns, whateverthefuck is floating around out there on the outrage train.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1084677Apologizing didn't help Vic Mignogna not one single bit, I don't know why Bill Webb thinks this will help him.  If he starts off on the "I was wrong" foot, he is handing his opponents 30% of the points.  He's conceding the first quarter of the game, and it's not entirely obvious if he can make up the points.  If Ty Beard is representing him I sincerely, sincerely hope he OK'd this before Bill put it up.

Apologizing is an admission of guilt and the hyenas take it as sharks do blood in the water, now the attacks will accelerate and grow in intensity, I fully expect them to target his family too.

[Edit - the more subjective the situation, the more] Judges tend to mentally dismiss people who insist the matter before them is entirely the other person's fault.

Yes, I suspect this will incite more outrage from the idiots shortly. I'm still very curious to know what's going on behind the scenes with all of this.

I really hope Ty Beard is able to speak on this.  It's in his wheelhouse in so many ways.  Back when it first dropped he seemed to think it was more of a slam-dunk case than even the issue with Vic Mignogna.

If Webb hired a lawyer, then whatever statement he is making now is on the advice of the lawyer. So I would not worry about it. His company made a statement shortly after the incident that confirmed that something happened.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1084668Sure do, isn't posting it against the rules?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjC7-w5KDKNiD-k0tVo1DPw?view_as=subscriber

You could just have your channel link in your sig. The rule AFAIK is that you can't post just to shill.

Quote from: S'mon;1084690You could just have your channel link in your sig. The rule AFAIK is that you can't post just to shill.

Thanks, wasn't shilling tho, just put the link by request, but that's a good idea.

https://www.ces.tech/Navigation/Utility/Code-of-Conduct.aspx

Large professionally run trade events (conventions) have a policy. It is a good practice and gives warning in advance of the consequences of undesired behaviors.

Despite the straw man arguments up above in the thread, believing the accuser means treating their accusation seriously as if is true until facts say otherwise. That means that if a reasonable person could believe it to be true, at a con you remove the accused from the con. At a workplace, you remove them from the workplace (often on paid leave).

There is no legal standard of innocent unless proven guilty needed. You can be fired without a trial based on an accusation. You have recourse to the courts, but if a company was reasonable in their actions and had a clear policy in place, there is little chance of victory.

This is accepted widely in the convention and trade show industry and is the common and lawyer approved HR practice at most large companies. I see little merit in arguing that further, there should be a clear policy as it protects everyone, including the convention itself. The vast majority of convention attendees behave themselves appropriately and the policy is moot for them.

What is not covered by such policies as it is outside the convention is the use of libel and slander to attack and harass others. I believe that this is the case for Bill Webb. I believe that some people took and incident and distorted and amplified it for their own  purposes. Twitter and forum posts are not a convention committee who have access to the actual people close to the time of the event.

Actions on twitter and forum posts often far cross the line past advocating to bullying. TBP is a place where I think that there is too much of this bullying and suppression of reasonable discussion. I believe that there has been repeated use of claims in this case that the people know not to be true and that those claims are used to target the individual and the business improperly.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084692Large professionally run trade events (conventions) have a policy. It is a good practice and gives warning in advance of the consequences of undesired behaviors.

The problem is that most of the fandom conventions I have been to are run by fans, who can be considered enthusiastic amateurs with all that entails when compared to a professionally run trade event.

There may be a policy in place, but the problem I've often seen is that policy being implemented.

If the con removes someone and then determines that there is no need to take further action (ban from future cons), then there is little damage to the person. The issues I have seen are not the cons, it is people that will not be satisfied and argue it out in public.

Notice that Bill Webb did not say that he did nothing at the con. I would have been fine with the accuser overreacting at the time and Paizo Con handling it and that be the end of it (which was the request of all involved at the time). The discussion of arrest is a red herring, of Bill Webb's account is even mostly true there were no grounds for an arrest. It can be considered, but discussion after the fact should say considered and rejected as no reason to. Same for driving. He had a room at the hotel, he could have returned to his room and slept and left the next day no problem. The people spreading the story must have had poor intent. For example, the initial tweets make it clear that maybe someone was injured and that became a discussion on him assaulting someone. Now, two years later the person that was referred to admits that they hurt themselves.

Meanwhile, the conversation at the other site is all about justifying why they believe any crap posted that fits what they want to believe.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084627They even may be freaking out over a placeholder list that just is a copy from last year.

S'mon, I am sorry, but any good policy can be exploited if someone has bad intentions. More often than not a good policy that encourages reporting of issues helps. It keeps the creeps more in check and encourages them to be reported and taken care of. It was not the Paizo policy and action that was an issue, it was the assumption mob afterwards. In the original Enworld thread you were fine throwing Webb under the bus if he was drunk and misbehaving.

"Allways believe the accuser" is just as mentally stunted a policy as "Allways disbelieve the accuser." or "Do nothing."
It is horrifically open to abuse and from ample experience we know people will do this to total strangers just for "fun". And that is even before getting to the loons out there who think that "he looked at me from across the room" is harassment or outright rape. And it is how we have this problem of we can NEVER just believe the accuser.

Quote from: jeff37923;1084696The problem is that most of the fandom conventions I have been to are run by fans, who can be considered enthusiastic amateurs with all that entails when compared to a professionally run trade event.

There may be a policy in place, but the problem I've often seen is that policy being implemented.

That is true even with the so called "professionally" run cons. In fact some times it is even worse.

Here is Bill Webb's first statement: https://www.tenkarstavern.com/2019/04/statement-by-bill-webb.html

After reading this I'm inclined to believe what he is saying and the whole hoopla is fucking crazy. The whole thing is because e put his arm around, somebody he thought was a friend, and called her "sweetie" and the smoking thing. I'm sorry but anybody who gets the vapors over that is fucking crazy and shouldn't be treated serious. We have the nuts at RPG.net and ENWorld calling him a harasser and a predator over this.

I cannot wait to vote for Trump next year and for these people to, officially, break.

Quote from: Omega;1084705"Allways believe the accuser" is just as mentally stunted a policy as "Allways disbelieve the accuser." or "Do nothing."
It is horrifically open to abuse and from ample experience we know people will do this to total strangers just for "fun". And that is even before getting to the loons out there who think that "he looked at me from across the room" is harassment or outright rape. And it is how we have this problem of we can NEVER just believe the accuser.

No, you believe the accusation is serious (believe the accuser). The accusation is "he looked at me with rape eyes across the room". You then evaluate the accusation to make sure you understand it. Maybe the accuser is being emotional and you find out from talking to them that there is a restraining order in place.

This all comes from not enough attention being given in the past. And, again, this is common HR practice as well, not a convention thing or a "woke" thing.

Now, if the accusation is shown to be false, you then react to that, but in the interests of safety you need to "believe" it as in act if it were true from the beginning.

Long-time lurker, 1st-time poster here. Hello!

The "SJWs" have had a long run of semi-slander @ Bill Webb, Frank Mentzer, and other persons identified with the "OSR". Remember it was Webb who teamed with Clark Peterson to bring an "OSR-like vibe" WITH White Wolf (a traditional 'narrative' game company). The WW faithful probably never forgave this slight.

So the WW SJWs go after Webb online, with the named defendants in the new lawsuit, stalking Webb wherever he tries to do business. Obviously actionable from a legal perspective but, the harassers can't see this blinded by their emotional link to WW. They trash Webb for YEARS over an event that has serious issues in how it was reported, largely online. Webb endures the harassment, until, FGG makes a deal with Steve Jackson Games.

SJG is looking to return to relevance with a company (FGG) noted across the industry for adventure design. Makes sense. But, the SJWs show up to crush the deal. Webb did something wrong years ago and no one should do business with him. Period.

Problem is, this is SJG. Steve Jackson's no pauper. And he has what he needs to not be pushed around online by the SJWs. GURPS. Munchkin. The Ogre 6e kickstarter was one of the largest-funded EVER. He's was the youngest TTRPG designers inducted into the Origins Hall of Fame.

Do you really want to f*** with this guy? Sure, the SJWs do. I think, they will regret it.

I think, since SJG is based out of Texas and the law firm for the suit is also, based out of
Texas, this could get very ugly for the SJWs.

And, it's good for the hobby. SJWs have been imposing themselves on us for over a decade.
They tell us "playing way X is WRONG" despite guidebooks that read otherwise. SJWs want
TTRPG gamers to embrace a 'certain policy' that fits their agenda. Many SJW 'gamers' represent
an idea that TTRPGs should be played ' a certain way'.

And this is wrong. You cannot force gamers to play the way you want. You cannot dictate play
across the hobby 'because you say so'. You cannot change organized play events simply because
you want to. Organized play is a HUGE cash-cow for WoTC & Paizo. We've seen PF shift along SJW lines,
but D&D can't afford to alienate games with SJW-sensitive revisions to Organized Play.

You think the change is coming, but the game will not allow it. This lawsuit is proof: find the
most vocal SJWs and make them prove what they have been spewing across the internet for
years.

From what I've seen, the SJWs have made the plaintiff's case. They've, in my opinion, defamed
and slandered Bill Webb BEYOND what he's done AND impacted his ability to do business with
other companies. So, 'YAY' for the SJWs, but, 'NO' - a line was crossed and let's work it all out
in court.

The defendants will lose. They can settle to avoid serious damage, but the long-term effects to
sites like RPG.net & Enworld.com COULD be disastrous. Those sites foster SJW ideology, and they
would be the next tier of legal action.

I could be completely incorrect here. Thoughts?

Boy I really love differing opinions. However honestly my opinion should be considered the standard opinion; other opinions should also be considered below mine since I have the moral high ground according to what I feel.

I don't particularly care for facts or concrete observations or testimonies. I think we should skewer people based on my opinions because they deserve to be because I say so (and so do my friends). I'm also not shy about organizing media campaigns around skewering people on them because they definitely do deserve to be. It's actually extremely righteous of me to be honest. Do you not agree? Well, I'm going to skewer you too.

I will also bury any opinion you have on the subject perceived to be underneath my own commentary and those of my cohorts. I do value rational discourse very much and above all, and I am entirely willing to discuss anything so long at it is my opinion. Thank you for your valuable and independent thoughts and perspectives on these matters. I will be sure to have your thoughts curated on your behalf for the benefits of others in case you care to deviate from what I fully believe to be true, despite the fact that I'm not sure I have actually read anything about the issue in question; however I am VERY sure I know what I'm talking about and how offended I am and what the truth REALLY is. Seriously just trust me.

Please stop presenting me your so-called "evidence." Not interested.

I say, at this point, let the courts decide what makes sense here.

I'm tired of internet opinion. Even mine. Let us see what the law has to say, then move forward towards the best gaming experience possible.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084711No, you believe the accusation is serious (believe the accuser). The accusation is "he looked at me with rape eyes across the room". You then evaluate the accusation to make sure you understand it. Maybe the accuser is being emotional and you find out from talking to them that there is a restraining order in place.

This all comes from not enough attention being given in the past. And, again, this is common HR practice as well, not a convention thing or a "woke" thing.

Now, if the accusation is shown to be false, you then react to that, but in the interests of safety you need to "believe" it as in act if it were true from the beginning.

It also used to be common practice to enslave people, or where I'm from to eat their still beating heart. This is an argument from tradition, the fact that is tradition (common practice) doesn't make it okey.

I remove you from the convention, doesn't have a huge impact true, but then the woke crowd can use that to point at you as a sexual harasser.

Now, in the workplace, if you're suspended during the investigation (for reasons) so should be the accuser, and if I fire you prior any investigation then there's harm. Not only the job loss but again the woke crowd can us it and point at you as a sexual harasser.

You can take the accusation seriously without believing it happened, and that's how it should be. Anything else in unjust to the accuser and the accused. And it's fertile ground for abuse.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1084719It also used to be common practice to enslave people, or where I'm from to eat their still beating heart. This is an argument from tradition, the fact that is tradition (common practice) doesn't make it okey.

I remove you from the convention, doesn't have a huge impact true, but then the woke crowd can use that to point at you as a sexual harasser.

Now, in the workplace, if you're suspended during the investigation (for reasons) so should be the accuser, and if I fire you prior any investigation then there's harm. Not only the job loss but again the woke crowd can us it and point at you as a sexual harasser.

You can take the accusation seriously without believing it happened, and that's how it should be. Anything else in unjust to the accuser and the accused. And it's fertile ground for abuse.

This is not an appeal to tradition, this is a pretty new practice in corporate HR and it comes from companies being sued for and losing tons and tons of money. Now there are policies and procedures that protect the accuser. Same thing for cons these days. Don't want to have a harassment policy because you want to make a stand because all gamer are nice? Legal liability goes up. Ignore a complaint and something bad happens?  Very negative liability results.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084721This is not an appeal to tradition, this is a pretty new practice in corporate HR and it comes from companies being sued for and losing tons and tons of money. Now there are policies and procedures that protect the accuser. Same thing for cons these days. Don't want to have a harassment policy because you want to make a stand because all gamer are nice? Legal liability goes up. Ignore a complaint and something bad happens?  Very negative liability results.

Appeal to tradition (also known as argumentum ad antiquitatem,[1] appeal to antiquity, or appeal to common practice) is an argument in which a thesis is deemed correct on the basis that it is correlated with some past or present tradition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition

Nah, that is just dismissive bullshit where you attach something to a tired argument fallacy instead of actually looking at the argument. I listed the reasons why it is good, I did not say that others do it so you should. How about thinking a little instead of misusing logical fallacies? Explain why there should be no policy and why the default should not be to treat any accusation seriously (believe the accuser).

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084730Nah, that is just dismissive bullshit where you attach something to a tired argument fallacy instead of actually looking at the argument. I listed the reasons why it is good, I did not say that others do it so you should. How about thinking a little instead of misusing logical fallacies? Explain why there should be no policy and why the default should not be to treat any accusation seriously (believe the accuser).

Care to cite where I say there should be no policy or matters shouldn't be investigated?

Quote from: SHARK;1083763I don't know much about DF or K and K. I have nothing against either of them. I don't know who K and K is.

I know I'm way late too the party on this (catching up on threads I haven't been reading...), but here's my take:

I've never had a problem on Dragonsfoot or on the Knights & Knaves Alehouse. (I'm a member at both sites.)

I think of Dragonsfoot as a "mainly TSR D&D" site. That's all the TSR D&D editions. Other games, too, but mainly TSR D&D. The discussions there are wide-ranging, incorporating everything from original D&D through B/X and BECMI to 2e AD&D. They have separate forums for the different editions. You can talk about "mixing editions," but it's polite to avoid doing that in the edition-specific forums (although each edition-specific forum has its own set of "social norms" -- you might get some flack for talking about 2e stuff in the 1e forum, but you're probably fine talking about 1e stuff in the 2e forum, for example). You can talk about other games, too, but mainly in their specific forums (if the game has one) or "Other Games" forum (if it doesn't).

I think of the Knights & Knaves Alehouse as a place with a laser-like focus on 1e AD&D and (to a lesser extent) original D&D. If you're interested in the site's focus, there's no better place for high quality discussion of those games without a lot of tangents/distractions. If you want to talk about B/X or BECMI or 2e or 3e/4e/5e, or how you're mashing up 5e with 1e for a Planescape campaign, then the Alehouse is not the site for you. There is some discussion of other games in designated forums, but it is minimal compared to the 1e and original D&D stuff, and the scope of "other games" is limited to what the site considers to be within its focus. (The Alehouse is also the "home/birthplace" of OSRIC -- the 1e AD&D retro-clone -- but there's not really much OSRIC-specific discussion, there. Rather than talking about OSRIC, everyone tends to talk about 1e AD&D.)

DF is more "big tent" and forgiving of off-topic posting. The Alehouse is more focused and much less tolerant of off-topic posting. I think that's why the Alehouse rubs some the wrong way. But like I said, I've never had a problem there, and if you're interested in 1e AD&D and original D&D, the signal-to-noise ratio is very good. If the Alehouse's focus on 1e and original D&D (and exclusion of other editions) pisses you off, just walk away. You'll be happier and the denizens of the Alehouse won't care if you're pissed off or not, in any case.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1084717I say, at this point, let the courts decide what makes sense here.

I'm tired of internet opinion. Even mine. Let us see what the law has to say, then move forward towards the best gaming experience possible.

Problem is. This is not just "internet opinion" this is the lunacy spilling over into real life more and more. Jobs ruined. Reputations ruined. Probably people falsely sent to jail or worse.

We have seen it before with the old "prude patrol" and "moral guardians" who sure as hell did not stop at just online or handing out pamphlets before the internet really kicked off. It is too easy to dismiss those silly pamphlets and say "I am tired of these pamphlets preaching that Mickey Mouse is pornography." until one day you go to Disney World and theres no mouse. These things start small and then spread their venom until enough are poisoned that they can try attacking those they disapprove. And then it usually escalates from there.

Unfortunately the sad truth is that if the lawsuits are successful it likely wont stop these nuts from going after someone else as more often people will cave in or bend knee because they dont have the clout to fight back. Or are allready infiltrated.

But remember. This is all for your own good! We have to clean up the industry so people will respect us.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084711No, you believe the accusation is serious (believe the accuser). The accusation is "he looked at me with rape eyes across the room". You then evaluate the accusation to make sure you understand it. Maybe the accuser is being emotional and you find out from talking to them that there is a restraining order in place.

This all comes from not enough attention being given in the past. And, again, this is common HR practice as well, not a convention thing or a "woke" thing.

Now, if the accusation is shown to be false, you then react to that, but in the interests of safety you need to "believe" it as in act if it were true from the beginning.

I hereby accuse Myrdin Potter of looking at me with rape eyes from across the room last month when I visited the company he works for.  I demand that his employer "believe the accuser", "act as if it were true", and put him on indefinite unpaid leave (or just fire his ass, since you don't really want someone like that on your payroll, do you?), until it can be proven that I don't even know what company he works for and almost certainly haven't set foot in the same nation as him at any point in the last year.

That is why a blind "believe the accuser and act as if the accusation is true until it can be proven false" policy is a bad policy.  It's practically designed to ensure that the innocent will be punished for things they didn't do, regardless of whether the incorrect accusation came about through malice, through a simple misunderstanding, or "for the lulz".

Quote from: nDervish;1084747I hereby accuse Myrdin Potter of looking at me with rape eyes from across the room last month when I visited the company he works for.  I demand that his employer "believe the accuser", "act as if it were true", and put him on indefinite unpaid leave (or just fire his ass, since you don't really want someone like that on your payroll, do you?), until it can be proven that I don't even know what company he works for and almost certainly haven't set foot in the same nation as him at any point in the last year.

That is why a blind "believe the accuser and act as if the accusation is true until it can be proven false" policy is a bad policy.  It's practically designed to ensure that the innocent will be punished for things they didn't do, regardless of whether the incorrect accusation came about through malice, through a simple misunderstanding, or "for the lulz".

Greetings!

Exactly. Believe the Accuser? LOL. How about you withhold judgement, make an investigation without punishing or penalizing anyone first? We've seen plenty of "accusers" of rape, racism, homophobia--all been hoaxes. Absolute fucking frauds. "Believe the Accuser!" is for cucks. Don't believe shit. You investigate, corroborate, interrogate, multiple testimonies, analysis, and gather evidence, review evidence, cross-check, cross-reference, and cross-examine evidence and testimony, and squeeze the truth out of suspects, witnesses, and so on. All that good stuff is how truth is determined.

So many of these Liberal frauds get their asses jackhammered when they are dragged into a room with police detectives and explained if they are fucking lying they are going to fucking prison for the next 5 or 10 years of their life...as the detectives bring in boxes of files, interviews, video footage, cell phone records, analysis of all that lined up with what the moron lying fuck has claimed....oh, yeah! Suddenly their story changes...the weeping and sobbing begins...as they confess they fucking lied and made everything up...then they sob and beg for mercy...LOL.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: nDervish;1084747I hereby accuse Myrdin Potter of looking at me with rape eyes from across the room last month when I visited the company he works for.  I demand that his employer "believe the accuser", "act as if it were true", and put him on indefinite unpaid leave (or just fire his ass, since you don't really want someone like that on your payroll, do you?), until it can be proven that I don't even know what company he works for and almost certainly haven't set foot in the same nation as him at any point in the last year.

That is why a blind "believe the accuser and act as if the accusation is true until it can be proven false" policy is a bad policy.  It's practically designed to ensure that the innocent will be punished for things they didn't do, regardless of whether the incorrect accusation came about through malice, through a simple misunderstanding, or "for the lulz".

I would be perfectly fine if you tried it at the company I work for. The procedure is pretty clear, the accusation would be treated seriously and the HR rep would do a quick assessment of the validity of the claim. If it is obviously baseless, determined by asking you a few questions, it would be done.

It is so unlikely that a baseless accusation would be made that the default is to assume otherwise. There is more risk to not assume otherwise than there is to do so. Maybe I do have rape eyes and failure to act will cause big damage to the company.

My state also has good protection of workers built into the law and case results, so if I was harmed by a negligent action, I would have recourse.

So your straw man argument just shows you want to protect rapists on the small chance that someone will make a false accusation and that you want to increase risk to victims and the company by imposing some legal standard that the corporation is not required to uphold. Even in legal cases, arrests are public and you will be held before trial. Unless there is some horrible personal malice, the state is not held responsible for arresting innocent people. Only the trial has the much higher standard you are demanding.

This particular straw man argument has been well considered by the general industry and rejected. It does open the door for exploitation, but so far that trade-off seems to be worth it.

Margaret Atwood pointed out the folly of always believing the accuser in this column:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/am-i-a-bad-feminist/article37591823/

QuoteMy fundamental position is that women are human beings, with the full range of saintly and demonic behaviours this entails, including criminal ones. They're not angels, incapable of wrongdoing. If they were, we wouldn't need a legal system...

This structure – guilty because accused – has applied in many more episodes in human history than Salem. It tends to kick in during the "Terror and Virtue" phase of revolutions – something has gone wrong, and there must be a purge, as in the French Revolution, Stalin's purges in the USSR, the Red Guard period in China, the reign of the Generals in Argentina and the early days of the Iranian Revolution. The list is long and Left and Right have both indulged. Before "Terror and Virtue" is over, a great many have fallen by the wayside. Note that I am not saying that there are no traitors or whatever the target group may be; simply that in such times, the usual rules of evidence are bypassed.

Such things are always done in the name of ushering in a better world. Sometimes they do usher one in, for a time anyway. Sometimes they are used as an excuse for new forms of oppression. As for vigilante justice – condemnation without a trial – it begins as a response to a lack of justice – either the system is corrupt, as in prerevolutionary France, or there isn't one, as in the Wild West – so people take things into their own hands. But understandable and temporary vigilante justice can morph into a culturally solidified lynch-mob habit, in which the available mode of justice is thrown out the window, and extralegal power structures are put into place and maintained. The Cosa Nostra, for instance, began as a resistance to political tyranny.

This particular case doesn't require that you take a global philosophical stance about the nature of accusations because there isn't a clearly articulated accusation from a primary source on the table. For a recent comparison, it is very different from the Brett Kavanaugh drama last year. In that case, his accuser sat down under oath and stated clearly what he had done. While I understand that her testimony is not sufficient to convict him in a court of law, I found her believable, my opinion is that there is a good chance he is a lying piece of shit, and the people who frothed at the mouth to defend him are political opportunists and/or bug-eyed misogynists. This is not the gaming world's version of those events. The aggrieved party hasn't publicly explained what she believe occurred. The third hand accounts rattling around the internet are vague, contradictory and in some cases seem to have been made up or confused with other events and people. And if you tried to guess what did happen you would conclude it was perhaps a '2' on the '1-10' sliding scale of sexual harassment and assault.

There is no winning for SJGames or anyone really wgen dealing with SJWs. They are so mentally ill thst everything, anything, everyone , anyone bothers them.

SJGames did not react fast enough to the situstion, the wording of their response offensive etc..., by not saying anyrhing they endorse Webb actions, they get told the company cannot due to legal "lies! It is an excuse they support webb".

In any case most of the SJWs riding in on theor horses called suddenly fully woke will still play and buy products from their supposedly banned companies. I too can say
I will no longer buy, promote or run any products from SJGames. Whose to say behind closed doors or away from social media I'm doing the exact opposite.

It seems a rpg culture war is beginning and the SJWs insust on fighting it to the bitter end even if it destroys the hobby.

Quote from: Haffrung;1084766Margaret Atwood pointed out the folly of always believing the accuser in this column:

Mighty ironic from one of the patron saints of the "white men are EEEVUL" crowd, and the author of that one wretchedly bad book.

Quote from: sureshot;1084773It seems a rpg culture war is beginning and the SJWs insust on fighting it to the bitter end even if it destroys the hobby.

It was already on seven or eight years ago, just at a lower temperature. My hunch, though, is that the SJWs have overplayed their hand, and the pendulum is already swinging the other way. People across society are wising up as they realise what the SJWs have in store for them, their children and their way of life.

Quote from: Melan;1084779Mighty ironic from one of the patron saints of the "white men are EEEVUL" crowd, and the author of that one wretchedly bad book.

They basically threw her out of the club for writing that article.

They shot Bukharin, too. ;)

Quote from: Melan;1084781They shot Bukharin, too. ;)

"Get back to Georgia, dead boy!"

(I know that was Beria, not Bukharin, but I couldn't find a blackly humorous quote on the death of Bukharin.)

Quote from: Melan;1084779MMy hunch, though, is that the SJWs have overplayed their hand, and the pendulum is already swinging the other way. People across society are wising up as they realise what the SJWs have in store for them, their children and their way of life.

I think the recent "Abolishing Whiteness" stuff where they have to defend themselves as "No we don't LITERALLY mean killing all white people" may have been a mis-step. But really ever since SJWs acquired a name they have been on the decline. It's not like 2008 where Liberals just assumed they should accept whatever SJW madness came up next.

Quote from: Melan;1084779It was already on seven or eight years ago, just at a lower temperature.

They have been at it for about a century - really since WW1 ended without a worker's revolt, and Gramsci then the Frankfurt School realised they needed a different approach. We had Political Correctness in 1990 and it's been getting a lot worse since. In Britain they took power with Blair in 1997 and abolished traditional concepts of Liberty in favour of increasingly harsh totalitarian repression. The dangerhair SJWs are just one extreme end of it.

I used to think they were always going to win, and they currently control all the commanding heights, but they seem to have lost all moral authority among the general population.

Quote from: S'mon;1084793They have been at it for about a century - really since WW1 ended without a worker's revolt, and Gramsci then the Frankfurt School realised they needed a different approach. We had Political Correctness in 1990 and it's been getting a lot worse since. In Britain they took power with Blair in 1997 and abolished traditional concepts of Liberty in favour of increasingly harsh totalitarian repression. The dangerhair SJWs are just one extreme end of it.

I used to think they were always going to win, and they currently control all the commanding heights, but they seem to have lost all moral authority among the general population.

Greetings!

Hey S'mon! Yes, I agree. On some days, I think our society is filled with too many room-temperature IQ morons, and we are essentially doomed to leaping into the abyss of shit, where the globalist/socialist elite rule over us, with hordes of frothing at the mouth SJW shock troops to perpetually harass and dominate our society into a weird, dystopian slavery. I often believe that is the fate we are headed towards, as our society is too stupid, too self-absorbed, and too weak--or simply too few in number--to do anything other than submit to the new tyranny.

Then, on other days, I see little glimmers of hope, small fires breaking forth here and there, relentlessly committed to standing strong, and turning the cultural tide. Which gives me some small hope that a ferocious struggle, or a series of struggles, shall play out where we gradually take back our culture, and restore health, sanity, and vigor to our nations, and our civilization.

I bounce hopelessly back and forth, as in one week or a period, I see nothing but a cascade of stupidity and defeat. Then I see little battles being waged and islands of sanity and resistance forming, both high and low, from normal working people being fed up with the nonsense and tyranny, to groups of academics, lawyers, politicians and other leaders stepping forth, boldly risking their wealth, careers, and reputations, to stand firm, and resist the SJW gloablist tyranny. I'm enough of an idealist to believe we shall win through eventually.:D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1084799I'm enough of an idealist to believe we shall win through eventually.:D

Well I know they can't win, because they are fundamentally opposed to reality. It's a question of how much damage they can do.

The point of a lawsuit is to end the damage done by internet bullies like Chris Helton & the other named defendants. If the suit moves forward, those people would need to explain
why they have said what they said and why.

Their position is indefensible. Legally. Largely because they incorporated an internet-bred body of lies to vilify Bill Webb. He's come out saying just that.

What if you posted a mistake here and everytime you made subsequent posts, a group of people reminded everyone of that bad post you made. What if You were a game designer
trying to sell your product and everytime you showed up, that group reminded everyone of that mistake you made. What if you showed up at a con and those same people
reminded everyone of that bad post you made AND IT COST YOU SALES. What if you partnered with another company and this same group reminded everyone of that old post
ypu made AND IT COST YOU SALES.

If you got tired of it and sued, those people would need a GOOD attorney or two.

Quote from: S'mon;1084800Well I know they can't win, because they are fundamentally opposed to reality. It's a question of how much damage they can do.

I'm starting to feel that we're all stuck in a live action game of Mage...

Quote from: HappyDaze;1084824I'm starting to feel that we're all stuck in a live action game of Mage...

Well they believe that Narrative = Reality. But Reality doesn't agree. :D

Quote from: sureshot;1084773It seems a rpg culture war is beginning and the SJWs insust on fighting it to the bitter end even if it destroys the hobby.

Well atomization of everything is the point of factionalism. In that way there can be no organized resistance, just isolating anomie. :)

Honestly, does no one want to play an In Nomine SJG PbP game with me? :p We could pretend to embody these values to their neurotic and destructive conclusion, wallowing in its crapulence like a Swedish LARP. It'll be fun! :D

Quote from: Brad;1084623I've played in Bill Webb's convention games what, three or four times? Seen him at at least six conventions total. That dude is 1) super friendly, 2) extremely high strung, 3) and drinks heavily. His wife and kids are usually with him, which makes this whole thing seem suspect...at 2AM when someone has been drinking throughout the entire day still seems 100% lucid and "into gaming", while talking about his kids in front of a bunch of gamers with his wife present, it almost makes zero sense to me he'd be hitting on some young girl. Like when would he have the time? The dude is frantic as shit, running a ton of games and basically shilling his company. I'm inclined to agree with the whole offered the girl a cigarette and she freaked out. Even if it was a pass, so what? FGG telling Bill Webb to avoid talking to young autistic milennials who take everything out of context? Could totally see that happening. Bill Webb sexually assaulting someone? Nope.

I get where you're coming from, and I agree, in principle - if he is generally a nice guy, as many here have vouched for, then it's ever the more outrageous what is being done to him. But we have to be careful not to get distracted by the usual rhetorics of "the great culture war": Whether he hurt BJ Hensley's feelings is not the question. It's about whether he actually did something that could be considered an illegal act, or not.

IMO that's the distinction to make that get's a little bit overlooked: Webb is accused of criminal behavior - if not by Hensley herself, then by others. These others voicing their general dislike for him, or for harassing behavior in general, is a completely different topic. Them raging on about the general matter is not even necessarily bad - only them trying to project any fantasy scenarios on what happened between Webb and Hensley.

This is also why I consider breaking the news through that amped-up YouTube podcaster such a stupid move. Granted, it WAS funny. But if Webb ever had the high ground, then he's lost it now.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1084824I'm starting to feel that we're all stuck in a live action game of Mage...

Quote from: S'mon;1084855Well they believe that Narrative = Reality. But Reality doesn't agree. :D

Which is why I never liked Mage. It had that tone of "this is how the Real World works - now play it in your game!" without ever explicitly saying so.

The irony of all the shit over at RPGkremlin is the sheer fucking hypocrisy. Bill Webb was being castigated for not being publicly contrite. The minute he raises his head above the parapet and IS publicly contrite, out come the Death Squads to shoot him down. He mentioned his victim's name: so what? Everyone knew it already. Those bastards don't want contrition: they don't want apologies, exemplars of good behaviour or anything else. They just want Webb's head on a spike, just like they wanted (and more or less got) Mentzer's. These guys may have been clumsy and dumb, but they're not malicious. There are plenty of accusations of Webb being some kind of serial convention lecher, but evidence is thin on the fucking ground.

And as for going after SJG? Bullshit. FGG is more than the sum of its parts, and SJG is savvy enough to know this. They've most likely done a fuck of a lot more investigation into Paizogate than Helton, Delofarno and Price ever have, and reached an informed fucking conclusion that's driving their business decision. But that's anathema to the Purple Stalinists. Suing this hand-wringing trio of character assassins is going to set an example that I hope the SJWs will actually take note of. Just as they want to make some examples of Webb, Mentzer, and whichever poor sap is next, they need a few of their own to be made an example of. That's the Chicago Way.

So here's what I'm doing for my small part. As CoreyHaim8myDog, a line editor for Modiphius, is one of the vocal supporters of the SJG/FGG pogrom,  I'm going to use their tactics against them. Guilt by association right? So here's a representative of a respected RPG company openly advocating the boycotting of two other respected RPG companies. I'm therefore done with Modiphius. I have a few of their books, and the whole fucking lot is going to my nearest Thrift Store tomorrow morning. I won't spend another nickel with them. Fuck, I was looking forward to Dune, but if Modiphius is going to allow one of their employees to target other members of the industry in this way, fuck 'em. The game works in two directions. I will continue to buy from SJG. I will buy stuff from Frog God. I'll make up my own mind as to who's innocent and who's guilty based on the available evidence, and it's pretty fucking evident that CoreyHaim8myDog is helping to drive a lynch mob.

I wonder if Modiphius is even aware an employee is doing that. I can't imagine any company would be happy about that behavior.

Quote from: myleftnut;1084907I wonder if Modiphius is even aware an employee is doing that. I can't imagine any company would be happy about that behavior.

Me neither. But there he is, shooting his mouth off, agitating, all the while with his tag line displaying his industry credentials. I guess it all depends on how Woke the Modiphius management structure is, and if they, as a company, are going to come out in support of their line manager, or back the industry itself.

Quote from: myleftnut;1084907I wonder if Modiphius is even aware an employee is doing that. I can't imagine any company would be happy about that behavior.

Well, we are talking about the same company that "accidentally" hid Gareth Michael Skarka's writing credits in the new Star Trek stuff until they got called on it.

What's so very cool: how Rpg.net mods allow their own site rules to be broken in order to attack people they do not like:

RPG.NET RULES:

Rule 0: The mission statement of this forum is "Keep the forums friendly and welcoming to as wide a range of gamers as possible." --- bullshit. How is bullying game designers 'friendly'?

Rule 4: Respect the privacy of your fellow gamers. Do not post emails or private messages without explicit written permission of all those involved. Do not use any posts or part of posts from these forums for commercial purposes without the express permission of each person involved. "Doxxing" anyone is cause for an immediate permanent ban. --- more bullshit. The SJW's & Mods post lies about Webb taken from all over the web, plus any toxin an SJW has posted on their site previously. Doxxing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxing) link included.

Rule 6 ("Rule 9"): Do not ask for medical, legal or other professional advice. Do not offer medical, legal, or other professional advice. Do not request emergency crisis counseling or solicit personal financial donations. If you're not sure if what you'd be asking counts, ask yourself "If the advice here is bad, is someone going to be harmed?" --- posters are in the threads discussing how to destabilize Frog God Games and Steve Jackson Games.

SJWs don't even understand the more they post their toxic ideology, the deeper the hole they dig for themselves. I hope Beard files and wins against them - then goes after RPG.net, ENWORLD and every other SJW troll-cave.

QuoteI hope Beard files and wins against them - then goes after RPG.net, ENWORLD and every other SJW troll-cave.

Agree with you on this 100%. Webb really has no other recourse. He's tried staying silent; he's tried to explain his position; he's tried to show he's changed when attending conventions. None of that is acceptable and the attacks still come. Suing Helton, Stacey D and Price - along with any other instigators of this Stalinist witch hint - needs to happen, and that should include RPGnet for providing a willing platform and constant encouragement for the activity. But one battle at a time.

I don't know who's right, even though it increasingly appears that Bill Webb is. I only hope that if he is, then FGG rightfully sues the seemingly lying, slandering fucks so deep into the dirt that they can't see daylight for a decade.

I suppose it's clear I'm not entirely impartial, though.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1084951I don't know who's right, even though it increasingly appears that Bill Webb is. I only hope that if he is, then FGG rightfully sues the seemingly lying, slandering fucks so deep into the dirt that they can't see daylight for a decade.

I suppose it's clear I'm not entirely impartial, though.

  Well, now that Webb has given his side of the story, there are three possibilities:

  1. Webb is deliberately lying or misrepresenting himself and/or the situation, whether through flat-out lying or using a minor incident to deflect attention from major ones.
  2. Webb is misrepresenting things, but not deliberately--difference of perspective, memory lapse due to time, alcohol, and/or other factors.
  3. Webb is telling the truth.

  Are there any solid testimonies or pieces of information that could help determine which it is? Because I haven't followed this story closely, but the latest blow-up on RPGNet seems long on rumor, innuendo and accusation, short on details--and even if I could ask over there (I locked my account two years ago), I'd be accused of JAQing/sealioning/trying to protect the abuser.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1084970Are there any solid testimonies or pieces of information that could help determine which it is? Because I haven't followed this story closely, but the latest blow-up on RPGNet seems long on rumor, innuendo and accusation, short on details--and even if I could ask over there (I locked my account two years ago), I'd be accused of JAQing/sealioning/trying to protect the abuser.

I think the possibilities you present are fairly self-evident and most rational third parties could agree upon, yes.

As to solid testimonies, only those from the alleged victims who as far as I've read at least 2 of the 3 (not speaking of people who were present who appear to agree, but they're at least partially removed from the events in question) essentially corroborated Webb's story and said it's been a misunderstanding and that it's over now. The only account I've read related to the con injury was someone who was not physically capable of interjecting with him but still did so, and injured themselves in the process (reasons unclear, supposedly he was following someone but the waters are muddied there from both sides as far as accounts). Aside from that, lots of hearsay about him being a drunken lout at cons who continually harassed women at bars from people whose friends told them about how bad he behaved. Then more hearsay from people who met him in person and said he was fine and agreeable and never did a thing wrong and that he has been a great guy and kept his family with him at nearly all times.

I don't know and I don't claim to know. Someone else may be able to shed more light.

I can only say Webb appears to be mostly in the clear, from my perspective. Hopefully the law will sort it out. Whoever did wrong deserves justice. Whoever didn't does not deserve a witch hunt, regardless.

RPG.net is a bunch of fucking fanatics who literally prevent the presentation of actual evidence. Read those threads but don't drink the kool-aid. Also "sealioning" is a fucking embarrassing joke term that completely invalidates its own use by even being posted.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1084974I think the possibilities you present are fairly self-evident and most rational third parties could agree upon, yes.

As to solid testimonies, only those from the alleged victims who as far as I've read at least 2 of the 3 (not speaking of people who were present who appear to agree, but they're at least partially removed from the events in question) essentially corroborated Webb's story and said it's been a misunderstanding and that it's over now. The only account I've read related to the con injury was someone who was not physically capable of interjecting with him but still did so, and injured themselves in the process (reasons unclear, supposedly he was following someone but the waters are muddied there from both sides as far as accounts). Aside from that, lots of hearsay about him being a drunken lout at cons who continually harassed women at bars from people whose friends told them about how bad he behaved. Then more hearsay from people who met him in person and said he was fine and agreeable and never did a thing wrong and that he has been a great guy and kept his family with him at nearly all times.

I don't know and I don't claim to know. Someone else may be able to shed more light.

I can only say Webb appears to be mostly in the clear, from my perspective. Hopefully the law will sort it out. Whoever did wrong deserves justice. Whoever didn't does not deserve a witch hunt, regardless.

RPG.net is a bunch of fucking fanatics who literally prevent the presentation of actual evidence. Read those threads but don't drink the kool-aid. Also "sealioning" is a fucking embarrassing joke term that completely invalidates its own use by even being posted.

Greetings!

SEALIONING!!!:D Fuck, that term is so ridiculous I love it! LOL. I think Jeff or Ratman told me what it meant. I honestly didn't know what the hell it meant until a few days or whatever ago. I still love it! It's such a stupid thing. Like Surehot grinds on the SJW's all the time for making new words up. I have also mentioned it in the past--I learned years ago, now, how the Liberals get all this shit from fucking Marxism, where they twist and distort the meaning of everyday, normal words, and they freight-train in whole new definitions for expressions, then they also make up whole new words out of nothing--all designed to verbally and socially silence you, and paralyze your resistance to their argument in the public square. I've seen this done all over in college; in magazine articles; on talk shows; on interviews on news programs; as well as in political talks and debates. It's a toxic, fucked up philosophy pioneered by Marx, and Foucalt, and some other Communist troglodytes over the years, designed to make language itself a weapon to destroy Western Civilization, and crush the Communist's political and cultural opponents.

Good commentary, my friend!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

It's not so much wanting to grind on SJWs so much as it not getting better with them. Instead it seems to be getting worse with them. Nothing is ever good enough. No amount of apologizing public or privately seems to make a difference to them. Sheer basic decency and common sense take 10th place to the narrative. As a company one is expected to go bankrupt because one cannot work with an opponent of the sJW bloodthirsty mob. Company going bankrupt and it could be saved with a business deal with FGG for example. Too bad so sad ol chum you go bankrupt or they make sure to ensure that one does. Unfortunately at the moment the most extreme insane SJWs seem to be a very vocal voice in the hobby. The rest seem like sheep for fear of being ostracized by the SJWs. To be honest your not much of person if for the sake of one hobby one throws away all self respect to continue being part of it.

It's just so extreme.  These actions trivialize actual victims of sexual abuse because anyone capable of critical thought can see how hollow and selfish it is.  I also believe there's a large population of people on the site who know this is going too far but they are afraid of speaking up. The site has a very clear hierarchy of elites.

Quote from: myleftnut;1084993It's just so extreme.  These actions trivialize actual victims of sexual abuse because anyone capable of critical thought can see how hollow and selfish it is.  I also believe there's a large population of people on the site who know this is going too far but they are afraid of speaking up. The site has a very clear hierarchy of elites.

I think a major red flag for me is if you are posting about being sexually abused online.

I mean I am not saying that you are a Jussie Smollett but why are you acting like a Jussie Smollett?   o_O

Quote from: myleftnut;1084993It's just so extreme.  These actions trivialize actual victims of sexual abuse because anyone capable of critical thought can see how hollow and selfish it is.  I also believe there's a large population of people on the site who know this is going too far but they are afraid of speaking up. The site has a very clear hierarchy of elites.

Unfortunately this has been going on for far longer than the current SJW nuttery. And it undermined and trivialized actual victims long ago. This is why I say that "allways believe the victim" is absolutely wrong.

Quote from: myleftnut;1084993It's just so extreme.  These actions trivialize actual victims of sexual abuse because anyone capable of critical thought can see how hollow and selfish it is.  I also believe there's a large population of people on the site who know this is going too far but they are afraid of speaking up. The site has a very clear hierarchy of elites.

Which does not impress me and I consider them pathetic in the extreme. If it was part time or full-time paid job with benefits to go to rpg.net then I can get not saying anything. Being afraid because they might be banned from a gaming site for saying something against an increasingly repressive and regressive totalitarian site. Are they that desperate for validation or simply attention losers the bunch of them and no respect for any of them too afraid to speak up. It's not like rpg.net is the only rpg forum on the Internet.

Quote from: SHARK;1084983Greetings!

SEALIONING!!!:D Fuck, that term is so ridiculous I love it! LOL. I think Jeff or Ratman told me what it meant. I honestly didn't know what the hell it meant until a few days or whatever ago. I still love it! It's such a stupid thing. Like Surehot grinds on the SJW's all the time for making new words up. I have also mentioned it in the past--I learned years ago, now, how the Liberals get all this shit from fucking Marxism, where they twist and distort the meaning of everyday, normal words, and they freight-train in whole new definitions for expressions, then they also make up whole new words out of nothing--all designed to verbally and socially silence you, and paralyze your resistance to their argument in the public square. I've seen this done all over in college; in magazine articles; on talk shows; on interviews on news programs; as well as in political talks and debates. It's a toxic, fucked up philosophy pioneered by Marx, and Foucalt, and some other Communist troglodytes over the years, designed to make language itself a weapon to destroy Western Civilization, and crush the Communist's political and cultural opponents.

Good commentary, my friend!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yes "sealioning" is up there together with "cultural appropriation" as far brain dead arguments go. Notice that Gamergate artists often use a sealion in their art to poke fun at it. :D

http://img02.deviantart.net/7d82/i/2016/068/9/9/gamergate_beach_party_by_ashion-d9ujpuh.jpg

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084756I would be perfectly fine if you tried it at the company I work for. The procedure is pretty clear, the accusation would be treated seriously and the HR rep would do a quick assessment of the validity of the claim. If it is obviously baseless, determined by asking you a few questions, it would be done.

Glad to hear that your employer has at least some level of common sense about it.  However, I've encountered multiple "believe the accuser" advocates who maintain that performing even the most basic sniff-test of the accusation, such as "have Myrdin Potter and ndervish ever been within 1000 miles of each other?", is a failure to "believe the victim".  ("If you believe them, why are you questioning their statment?").  Not everyone has your employer's good sense.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084756It is so unlikely that a baseless accusation would be made that the default is to assume otherwise. There is more risk to not assume otherwise than there is to do so.

I submit that "believe the accuser" policies, while they may be effective at increasing the chance of genuine incidents being reported, also greatly increase the chance of false accusations, because these policies make it easy to weaponize accusations.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084756So your straw man argument just shows you want to protect rapists on the small chance that someone will make a false accusation and that you want to increase risk to victims and the company by imposing some legal standard that the corporation is not required to uphold.

There's a huge excluded middle between "uncritically believe all accusations" and "trying to protect rapists" which might like a word with you.

Regardless of the accusation, my position is that it should be assessed in light of available evidence and action taken based on that.  It should be neither uncritically accepted at face value, nor uncritically dismissed.

In the particular case of rape or sexual assault, it is exceptionally important not to err in either direction.  You can't err on the side of disbelief because, as you said, that increases the risk to victims (both actual and potential).  But you also can't err on the side of unquestioning belief because accusations of rape or sexual misconduct have an unusually strong ability to destroy the lives of the accused even if they are later proven to be absolutely, unquestionably innocent.  Destroying the lives of innocent people is unacceptable, and this applies equally to both the accuser and the accused.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084756This particular straw man argument has been well considered by the general industry and rejected. It does open the door for exploitation, but so far that trade-off seems to be worth it.

The trade-off may or may not be worth it in the context of (I presume) US business operations (I left the US a decade ago and I don't go anywhere near HR or corporate policy, so I don't know either way), but "believe the accuser" seems to be exploited in the court of public opinion on a distressingly regular basis.

I think people read too extreme a view in "believe the accuser". It means treat it seriously, especially in the short term. It does not mean March the accused out in front of a firing squad and be done with them. There actually was a good post on the site we're squawking about on why innocent until proven guilty is important for the state legal system. Companies or a con are not required or expected to follow such procedures and there are ample legal procedures to handle times when it goes wrong.

For a con, all it means is delegate the accused from the accuser, make sure there is not immediate danger and the basic smell test applies (like the accused was in front of an audience on the other side of the hotel when the incident supposedly happened) and then act. Removing someone from a con is not the end of the world.

What is happening here is that people are making wild assumptions based on 1/2 truths. Like there was an initial report that Webb injured someone. So the story is he punched or assaulted someone when that never happened. People that were not there are taking it upon themselves to interfere with business. That moves them toward and maybe into an actionable area.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084756So your straw man argument just shows you want to protect rapists

You should take a good hard look at what you wrote there.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1085037I think people read too extreme a view in "believe the accuser". It means treat it seriously, especially in the short term. It does not mean March the accused out in front of a firing squad and be done with them.

I certainly commonly see "believe the accuser" used to mean unconditional belief. The highly politicised UK police have recently got in trouble for this when rape and abuse claims collapsed because they unconditionally believed accusers and didn't do proper checks for credibility. So it goes far beyond SJWs on RPGnet. The Obama administration basically forced US colleges in receipt of public funds to take an unconditional-belief approach.

I definitely think "take accusations seriously" is good practice. Huge amounts of harm have been done by ignoring accusations, eg the Rotherham and other 'grooming' (sexual enslavement & rape) gangs here in the UK. Or frequent pre-#MeToo (and ongoing) cases in Hollywood. But one still needs to exercise basic common sense and be willing to hear both sides. Unfortunately this often does not happen.

Quote from: Trond;1085022Yes "sealioning" is up there together with "cultural appropriation" as far brain dead arguments go. Notice that Gamergate artists often use a sealion in their art to poke fun at it. :D

http://img02.deviantart.net/7d82/i/2016/068/9/9/gamergate_beach_party_by_ashion-d9ujpuh.jpg

But, but... I'm an Otherkin, and I identify as a non-binary sea lion, and so I'm extremely stressed that my beautiful amphibious species is used in such a non-respectful manner. Must... have... seabed safe space ! [*faints*].

Man, that was fun. Perhaps someone could market an RPG about SJWs where one plays a psychotic brat intent on infecting the Western patriarchal world with his/her/its/iz/WTF brand of insanity (but WITH SUPERPOWERS ! Because, why the Hell not :-D !)

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1085037I think people read too extreme a view in "believe the accuser". It means treat it seriously, especially in the short term. It does not mean March the accused out in front of a firing squad and be done with them. There actually was a good post on the site we're squawking about on why innocent until proven guilty is important for the state legal system. Companies or a con are not required or expected to follow such procedures and there are ample legal procedures to handle times when it goes wrong.

For a con, all it means is delegate the accused from the accuser, make sure there is not immediate danger and the basic smell test applies (like the accused was in front of an audience on the other side of the hotel when the incident supposedly happened) and then act. Removing someone from a con is not the end of the world.

What is happening here is that people are making wild assumptions based on 1/2 truths. Like there was an initial report that Webb injured someone. So the story is he punched or assaulted someone when that never happened. People that were not there are taking it upon themselves to interfere with business. That moves them toward and maybe into an actionable area.

The problem is that there simply isn't enough evidence in many cases, so even if you take the accusations seriously, but you still want to check if the claim is believable (which is reasonable) you will find that you have no idea what actually happened in many cases. So, in many cases (whether we're talking about the police or a convention) the activists will come up with "survivors" who felt that they were not being taken seriously enough. This is why there has been a push towards believing the victim, which of course will lead to mistakes the other way, accusing someone who's innocent of sexual misconduct. Another issue is that there is already a bias towards believing women (http://healthland.time.com/2010/12/13/study-why-we-think-women-are-more-trustworthy-than-men/), which has been shown in several studies. In fact, I think a lot of the push for "trusting women" comes from the fact that people think women are more trustworthy. But why would she lie? Turns out for a whole range of reasons (regret, personal vendetta, blackmail etc.) or she might simply have very poor judgement on what constitutes sexual misconduct (see the Ansari #metoo case) or be highly strung and on edge for psychological reasons.

Quote from: SHARK;1084983SEALIONING!!!:D Fuck, that term is so ridiculous I love it! LOL. I think Jeff or Ratman told me what it meant. I honestly didn't know what the hell it meant until a few days or whatever ago.

I only figured out what the hell it meant from the same post, ha! Reading through TBP's bans and seeing "sealioning" mentioned multiple times was getting eerie and confusing. Now it's just eerie and idiotic.

That that the act of posting a dissenting opinion or even just asking for (or presenting) real, actual evidence on an "apolitical" "gaming" forum is being equivocated to breaking into someone's private home and shouting them down is fucking ridiculous. I mean, what a set of fucking mental gymnastics. It would almost be impressive if it weren't being used as such a pitiful tool for propaganda and silencing others.

Quote from: SHARK;1084983I have also mentioned it in the past--I learned years ago, now, how the Liberals get all this shit from fucking Marxism, where they twist and distort the meaning of everyday, normal words, and they freight-train in whole new definitions for expressions, then they also make up whole new words out of nothing--all designed to verbally and socially silence you, and paralyze your resistance to their argument in the public square.

Yes. This sort of thing pisses me off. Particularly the fact that, as you say, this is occurring so commonly on college campuses which is the exact place developing minds SHOULD be hearing dramatically conflicting/dissenting opinions, philosophies, perspectives, etc. and formulating their own. Campuses and classrooms are being used as soapboxes and mouthpieces for overwhelmingly liberal college professors.

As far as gaming, I deeply hope that this drivel TBP is shoveling drives more people away to places with more a more balanced array of opinions (and less batshit fucking insane moderation). Would be nice to have even more new members!:p

Quote from: SHARK;1084983Greetings!

SEALIONING!!!:D Fuck, that term is so ridiculous I love it! LOL. .........

Found this on RPG.net

QuoteModerator Text:
Anyone who sealions for known harassers or concern-trolls about "but what about the effect this will have on those poor companies who hire harassers!" in this thread is going to eat a lengthy ban.

At what point do we start wondering if the whole thing is actually parody?

Quote from: Trond;1085225Found this on RPG.net



At what point do we start wondering if the whole thing is actually parody?

Greetings!

LOL!:D Definitely, my friend! You know, sometimes I try and imagine myself being on the inside of their mind, you know? I think, man, some person can't actually say that or write that--precisely your example quote there, Trond!--and keep a straight face, right? You know what I'm trying to say? Doesn't the Stupid Train of what they're saying ever catch up to them, you know, like a backed up toilet, where they look at it, and think, "Goddamn. What the fuck am I thinking?" You know? The nonsense of their entire thinking is just so absurd, it's like the incoherent, emotional babbling of a 12 year old with snot bubbling down their face from their nose. Like many such dim kids, they seem blissfully unaware of the fact that they merely keep licking their tongue up and slurping their snot into their mouth. Only later do they suddenly sniff, and wipe their nose with newfound awareness instead of mindlessly slurping it back down. I guess they never reach that moment of self-awareness.:D

The really disturbing part, though, my friend, is I remember having colleagues in my classes--"Women's Studies" and such BS--where they were fully aware of their ideology, and were entirely committed to it, like they sold their soul to it in exchange for some future spiritual redemption. They smugly reassured themselves that THEY were the "plugged in" righteous elite, while YOU were the primitive, evil, misogynist, homophobic, imperialist, warmonger.

I got told that by more than a few preening little 18 year old strumpets in class because I merely said that I was Christian, Traditional, women shouldn't be serving in combat arms, and America needed to always be strong, and needed to stand against Muslim fanatics around the world. I had to tell them that their smug "opinions" on foreign affairs, and how a successful military operates didn't impress me in the slightest. When they were still in diapers, and sucking on their mother's tit, I was carrying an M-16 and jumping out of helicopters, serving our nation, and ready to fight against the Soviets, or any other of our enemies around the globe. I told them, think about your scope of learning, you have just recently graduated from high school; for the vast majority of your short, smug life, your biggest concern has been what Barbie dolls to play with, or what stuffed animal you were going to talk to. Meanwhile, I have placed my life on the line for my country; I've been shot at; I've seen blood spilled out right in front of me; I've been on my own; paying bills; and I've been married, paying taxes, and voted in elections almost as long as you've been alive.

And yet, you actually have the smug arrogance to presume YOU can sit here, all self-righteous, and pretend to tell ME how geo-politics actually works, and what should be important for our society, our military, and our government? LOL. I have been alive long enough to learn and know many things that you are simply incapable of even comprehending, because you haven't been alive long enough; you haven't read enough; you haven't worked and struggled enough; you haven't experienced enough.

I hate to break it to you cupcake, but you and your little friends here had best get up early in the morning, and spend another ten years of working, studying, and learning, before you can even begin to have a serious and worthwhile discussion with me, or someone like me. That's just the truth.

They were brainwashed though, and entirely committed to the socialist/globalist/feminist agenda and ideology. It's like a wierd disease of the mind, Liberalism. The SJW strain of the disease has matastasized, and transformed them now into pod-people, like Donald Sutherland!:D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Trond;1085225Found this on RPG.net
At what point do we start wondering if the whole thing is actually parody?

Not parody. Insanity. Some of these nuts are so divorced from reality it makes one wonder just how crazy they act offline. Because from experience these nuts never stop at online.

Quote from: Trond;1085225Found this on RPG.net



At what point do we start wondering if the whole thing is actually parody?

In Marxist countries they have a history of having sessions where neighbors need to tell on each other for their nonrevolutionary thinking and sins. If you don't have enough dirt to dish on each other you can be punished. Kids are encouraged to eat on their parents. RPG.net will start having those sessions soon. Watch.

Quote from: Trond;1085069The problem is that there simply isn't enough evidence in many cases, so even if you take the accusations seriously, but you still want to check if the claim is believable (which is reasonable) you will find that you have no idea what actually happened in many cases. So, in many cases (whether we're talking about the police or a convention) the activists will come up with "survivors" who felt that they were not being taken seriously enough. This is why there has been a push towards believing the victim, which of course will lead to mistakes the other way, accusing someone who's innocent of sexual misconduct. Another issue is that there is already a bias towards believing women (http://healthland.time.com/2010/12/13/study-why-we-think-women-are-more-trustworthy-than-men/), which has been shown in several studies. In fact, I think a lot of the push for "trusting women" comes from the fact that people think women are more trustworthy. But why would she lie? Turns out for a whole range of reasons (regret, personal vendetta, blackmail etc.) or she might simply have very poor judgement on what constitutes sexual misconduct (see the Ansari #metoo case) or be highly strung and on edge for psychological reasons.

For a con? In a they said type situation you probably default to asking the accused to leave. Sucks if they are really not an issue, but if the accusation is plausible but no hard evidence it is the safest thing to do.

Beyond being mentally ill they are a bunch of hypocrites. They get angry, offended and triggered because some in the hobby are salivating and frothing at the mouth that some SJWs might be getting sued. Though it is okay for them to do it to those they hate, dislike because "reasons and feelz".

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1085263For a con? In a they said type situation you probably default to asking the accused to leave. Sucks if they are really not an issue, but if the accusation is plausible but no hard evidence it is the safest thing to do.

Is it the safest thing to do? Notice the Bill Webb situation, and how the mob has been after him for some time now. Did he rape someone? Nope, but the hysteria might make people think that this is what he was trying to do. Let's say he actually propositioned Hensley* to come to his room (he denies this, but let's say it's true). He may also have "shudder"....hugged her or something? It looks like everyone agrees that the "violence" part of it was more like an accident or completely made up in the internet hysteria. And this is something the whole gaming community has been buzzing about ever since, trying to ostracize the guy from other cons and also from gaming publishers? Are women really THAT fragile?  WTF?

*And of course BJ Hensley's twitter is exactly what you expect. Bragging about all-girl gaming groups, believing all women, and campaigning for trans children. Somehow I think another woman would have handled it very differently.

(https://i.imgur.com/PFgMsn5.jpg)

Any convention that thinks its the Morality Police isn't going to last. They don't have the resources or the experience to "investigate" anything.

Cons are there to host games and vendors. Nothing more, nothing less.

The hotel may or may not decide to play Morality Police, but in most cases, they will default to "call the cops if you have an issue." Drunks getting drunky? Yeah, that's how hotel bars make money. They'll toss a belligerent drunk, but that's only to ensure the bar scene keeps cranking in those dollars.

As for "believe women", that's fucking ridiculous. Don't believe humans. Believe facts and evidence.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1085369As for "believe women", that's fucking ridiculous. Don't believe humans. Believe facts and evidence.

Wow. How about you pump the brakes you assault-supporting, victim-denying subhuman alt-right sexist cishet systematically priveleged white male.

Got any products I can boycott btw?

Quote from: Spinachcat;1085369As for "believe women", that's fucking ridiculous. Don't believe humans. Believe facts and evidence.

So, these facts and evidence just walk on up to you and introduce themselves?

Silly me, I thought that you had to have a complaint of some kind (unless you saw it yourself), and then use some basic reasoning skills to decide what to do about it. I guess there is no need to talk to anyone, it is all obvious and presents itself to you.

And you certainly should go to the hotel for every complaint of someone behaving poorly enough that you don't want them at the con anymore. Hotels love dealing with every problem and they open their doors happily to groups that have no self policing ability.

There also is no reason to have a policy on harassment and to be clear that anyone can be removed from the event with no refund if the con staff decides to. I mean, pretty much every professional event organization suggests it to reduce liability, but with all of these facts and evidence, no problem so no need.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1085398So, these facts and evidence just walk on up to you and introduce themselves?

Silly me, I thought that you had to have a complaint of some kind (unless you saw it yourself), and then use some basic reasoning skills to decide what to do about it. I guess there is no need to talk to anyone, it is all obvious and presents itself to you.

And you certainly should go to the hotel for every complaint of someone behaving poorly enough that you don't want them at the con anymore. Hotels love dealing with every problem and they open their doors happily to groups that have no self policing ability.

There also is no reason to have a policy on harassment and to be clear that anyone can be removed from the event with no refund if the con staff decides to. I mean, pretty much every professional event organization suggests it to reduce liability, but with all of these facts and evidence, no problem so no need.

People have been telling you that : Taking an accusation seriously and investigating =/= "Believe the "victim" " It means the opposite, do not believe in anyone and investigate. But you keep on straw-manning it to mean do not investigate.

Serious question: Do you really think all of us who think Investigating =/= Believing want more rapes/harassment to occur?

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1085448People have been telling you that : Taking an accusation seriously and investigating =/= "Believe the "victim" " It means the opposite, do not believe in anyone and investigate. But you keep on straw-manning it to mean do not investigate.

Serious question: Do you really think all of us who think Investigating =/= Believing want more rapes/harassment to occur?

I think you are asking the wrong questions, in the wrong place, at the wrong time. Since our thread was closed, you are now targeting someone else here in a hostile manner. GTFO you sjw loser.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1085454I think you are asking the wrong questions, in the wrong place, at the wrong time. Since our thread was closed, you are now targeting someone else here in a hostile manner. GTFO you sjw loser.

How christian of you.

Edited, not gonna become you.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1085448People have been telling you that : Taking an accusation seriously and investigating =/= "Believe the "victim" " It means the opposite, do not believe in anyone and investigate. But you keep on straw-manning it to mean do not investigate.

Serious question: Do you really think all of us who think Investigating =/= Believing want more rapes/harassment to occur?

Yes, I do believe that. If you do not act as if the complaint is true (believe the accuser), then you are both likely not to investigate it and to discourage reporting of problems. Since it would not take much time to do some basic research on the basis for "believe the woman", and would rather argue for some form of higher standard before doing anything, you must want more harassment and rapes. If you did the tiniest bit of research you could find why law enforcement, professional trade organizations, HR organizations, general legal advice, etc. all support believing the accuser, but you would rather not using an extreme position. So the logical conclusion is that you are fine with more rapes and harassment.

At no point am I saying continuing to believe the accuser if it becomes evident that they are wrong. I am
not saying be like the sheep on the other site that think that a concept around immediate safety means launch and/or participate in continuous attacks on someone and their business.

We are talking about workplace safety and having a safe gaming space. You seem to be unwilling to do something simple to make it safer so you must want more danger and cons to go bust or be unable to secure space.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1085460Yes, I do believe that. If you do not act as if the complaint is true (believe the accuser), then you are both likely not to investigate it and to discourage reporting of problems. Since it would not take much time to do some basic research on the basis for "believe the woman", and would rather argue for some form of higher standard before doing anything, you must want more harassment and rapes. If you did the tiniest bit of research you could find why law enforcement, professional trade organizations, HR organizations, general legal advice, etc. all support believing the accuser, but you would rather not using an extreme position. So the logical conclusion is that you are fine with more rapes and harassment.

At no point am I saying continuing to believe the accuser if it becomes evident that they are wrong. I am
not saying be like the sheep on the other site that think that a concept around immediate safety means launch and/or participate in continuous attacks on someone and their business.

We are talking about workplace safety and having a safe gaming space. You seem to be unwilling to do something simple to make it safer so you must want more danger and cons to go bust or be unable to secure space.

Right, then It's useless to try and talk with you, since you're willing to assume the worst in those who don't agree with you. Have a good day.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1085462Right, then It's useless to try and talk with you, since you're willing to assume the worst in those who don't agree with you. Have a good day.

I am not assuming shit about you, I am doing a plain reading of what you are saying. If you don't like the conclusion, stop posting like an idiot.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1085369Any convention that thinks its the Morality Police isn't going to last. They don't have the resources or the experience to "investigate" anything.

Cons are there to host games and vendors. Nothing more, nothing less.

1: Seen this back in the 90s with an art/comic con. The moral guardians had been bitching more and more each year to "clean up the industry" and get rid of everything that offended them. "So the mainstream will respect us!" of course. It wasnt good enough to harass artists and vendors one at a time. They went after the biggest con for that venue and ruined it the year I was attending by threatening the hotel it was hosted at. The next year they had took over and were running the con. It lasted about one more year then folded as people run out or suppressed just started a new convention which proceeded to overshadow the original. And thus a con that had been around for a decade died.

2: You'd like to think that. But cons oft end up battlefields behind the scenes. The sheer viciousness of artist wars alone is appalling.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1085393How about you pump the brakes you assault-supporting, victim-denying subhuman alt-right sexist cishet systematically priveleged white male.

LOL!!!

Why pump the brakes when I can gun the engine! :D

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1085398So, these facts and evidence just walk on up to you and introduce themselves?

Investigating = / = Believing.

Investigating = Investigating.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1085398And you certainly should go to the hotel for every complaint of someone behaving poorly enough that you don't want them at the con anymore. Hotels love dealing with every problem and they open their doors happily to groups that have no self policing ability.

If a problem happens in convention area, that's one thing, and most likely governed by the hotel's rules laid out in the rental agreement because the hotel is foremost concerned about its own liability.

If it happens outside the convention area (aka, the hotel bar), that's the hotel's issue and there's no reason for the con to be involved. BTW, for small cons, its very common for the con to be one of several events happening simultaneously at the venue.

Hotels deal with guest issues all the time. Drunken wedding brawls aren't a new thing for them.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1085398There also is no reason to have a policy on harassment and to be clear that anyone can be removed from the event with no refund if the con staff decides to. I mean, pretty much every professional event organization suggests it to reduce liability, but with all of these facts and evidence, no problem so no need.

Of course, the harassment policy will "reduce liability" because its a necessary legal dodge in our overly litigious world. Just like every "terms and conditions" when you visit websites. There's nothing noble about any of that bullshit. It's CYA. Nothing less and nothing more.

But an event increases their liability if they start playing Judge Dredd.

Most game con organizers aren't even professional con organizers! They're mostly volunteers. They don't have any investigation background, nor any legal standing to do an investigation into violent incident.

As for the "he said, she said" nonsense, cons need to remind adults they are responsible for themselves in public and to act accordingly. It appears impossible for gamers to imagine, but real women maneuver through the real world everyday without white knights hovering over them. The majority of women, just like men, handle their own shit.

But imagining that would require belief that women can handle themselves.

That's something I do believe.

In fact, I believe most women can handle their shit FAR BETTER than the clowns crapping about safe spaces.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1085460We are talking about workplace safety and having a safe gaming space. You seem to be unwilling to do something simple to make it safer so you must want more danger and cons to go bust or be unable to secure space.

Safe gaming space!!! LOL!!! OMG that's so cute.

Cons that stand up to SJW bullshit will THRIVE, not go bust.

The laughable lie about "dangerous game conventions" is asinine stupidity, but on the bright side, hopefully will keep away morons.

Quote from: Omega;1085465But cons oft end up battlefields behind the scenes. The sheer viciousness of artist wars alone is appalling.

I've done plenty of con organizing and you're 100% right. I bailed out of multiple cons due to departmental power plays and truly idiotic self-destruction of great events because people forgot their job was to host games and vendors.

Unless a con has strong leadership, the high school nonsense behind the scenes can become a nightmare. Your story about the artist con sounds very, very familiar. I've been doing cons for nearly 4 decades and I've seen numerous wonderful cons become shitholes and then poof, dead. It's a sad thing, but humans are ego monsters.

Just a reminder to everyone: please keep this within the topic of the RPG hobby. This is NOT a thread to discuss the larger issue of metoo or accusations of harassment in general, just the ones in the RPG hobby in particular.

LOL, ok so four (4) people, one right after another (including myself) spoke out against the moderation in the SJG thread over on TBP.

IMMEDIATE threadlock. Perfect. I love it.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1085607LOL, ok so four (4) people, one right after another (including myself) spoke out against the moderation in the SJG thread over on TBP.

IMMEDIATE threadlock. Perfect. I love it.

Why do you keep posting there?

The Human Resource version of "believe the victim" is a gross distortion of a (valid) psychological counseling technique.  Trying to apply it to anything gaming related is even more of a distortion, with less training, less understanding, and thus more opportunity to, well, achieve a level of foolishness not available to your mere mortal, average fool.  It's something you'd need to work up to gradually, by say, hanging around a group of screaming people with logic problems for long periods of time.

"Believe the victim" doesn't mean "Take the accusations seriously."  That's the distortion.  What it means is something more akin to:  While engaged in counseling and trying to determine why the person who has suffered trauma is suffering it, there are ways of asking questions and listening that are beneficial and others that are harmful.  Mainly, it refers to feelings.  If the victim freaks out when spiders are encountered, take them at their word that they freak out about spiders.  Don't assume they know why they freak out when spiders are encountered, though.  The more nasty the trauma, the more likely they won't know--which is probably why they are in counseling in the first place.  

Given that distinction, I hope it is obvious why the statement "believe the victim" is meaningless in an RPG context.  An RPG convention has a much more limited form of the same concerns that an HR department does.  Essentially, they need to be seen to have exercised some diligence in any nasty situation that might reflect on their bottom line, ability to continue to operate, legal responsibility, etc.  Such decisions can be made to help particular people, but more often they are made for public relations reasons, vague legal worries, or more often simple bureaucratic inertia.

So let's stop pretending that the convention banning anyone for anything short of illegal acts or repeated harassment has anything to do with "victims" at all.  It's the convention looking out for itself.  Nothing wrong with that as far as it goes.  Such groups make hard decisions all the time about who they want to attract or repel, and then they take the benefits and costs that go with those decisions.  The preening over looking out for victims is self-indulgent nonsense.  "Take problems seriously" is good at the convention level (or any level).  Pretending that "believe the victim" has anything to do with it, is delusional.

Quote from: Lurtch;1085611Why do you keep posting there?

I generally neither post nor browse there, but as a long-time SJG supporter I wanted to watch this particular shitshow.

Was actually hoping they would ban me for decrying the moderation; I can only imagine the reason they didn't ban us was some attempt at conjuring the appearance of impartiality.

Introspection interferes with the "Two Minutes of Hate" that thread was going for. User got banned for wanting to discuss his hesistancy in boycotting SJG. The problem wasn't that the user was somewhat clumsy in expressing his doubts, but that he was slowing down the flow. I doubt they can leave that thread end as it is, so see if they try to edit out the doubters regarding the moderation as being just the work of sea lions/trolls/etc.

Quote from: wmarshal;1085621I doubt they can leave that thread end as it is, so see if they try to edit out the doubters regarding the moderation as being just the work of sea lions/trolls/etc.

That would be very interesting to see, and hardly unexpected at this point. Scrubbing it clean so they can point people to it later on for ""information"" on what happened.

Now that there is a lawsuit Stacy has decided to ignore the actions she took against SJG, GaryCon etc.

https://m.facebook.com/sdellorfano/posts/2472197469459742

Per the above statement it's all just about Bill Webb. Maybe it should be (Or not. We should find out more as the process rolls on.), but she pretends she didn't lead a boycott against Gary Con or try to rile up an internet mob against SJG. No mention of those actions though it's almost guaranteed those will play a significant role in suit.

Quote from: wmarshal;1085631Now that there is a lawsuit Stacy has decided to ignore the actions she took against SJG, GaryCon etc.

https://m.facebook.com/sdellorfano/posts/2472197469459742

Per the above statement it's all just about Bill Webb. Maybe it should be (Or not. We should find out more as the process rolls on.), but she pretends she didn't lead a boycott against Gary Con or try to rile up an internet mob against SJG. No mention of those actions though it's almost guaranteed those will play a significant role in suit.

Since Stacy thinks that violating consent is ALWAYS a big deal and Bill thinks that tortious interference is ALWAYS a big deal then we just need to see what the legal system thinks.

Quote from: wmarshal;1085631Now that there is a lawsuit Stacy has decided to ignore the actions she took against SJG, GaryCon etc.

https://m.facebook.com/sdellorfano/posts/2472197469459742

Per the above statement it's all just about Bill Webb. Maybe it should be (Or not. We should find out more as the process rolls on.), but she pretends she didn't lead a boycott against Gary Con or try to rile up an internet mob against SJG. No mention of those actions though it's almost guaranteed those will play a significant role in suit.

I cannot stand that woman. Notice how she offered no specific just lying and implying. I don't think there will be lawsuit but I hope there is and she's taken for everything she has.

Hopefully Bill Webb learned not to engage with SJWs anymore.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1085607LOL, ok so four (4) people, one right after another (including myself) spoke out against the moderation in the SJG thread over on TBP.

IMMEDIATE threadlock. Perfect. I love it.

Oh how fucking glorious! You can feel the panic rising as the objections rise. Yet instead of owning their actions (like, y'know, they've been insisting SJG, Webb and FGG do), or apologizing and backing down (like, y'know, SJG should be doing), they squeal, panic, and lock the shit-show so they don't have to listen to the unwashed fucking masses. Fucking hypocrits.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3349[/ATTACH]

Quote from: Antiquation!;1085616I generally neither post nor browse there, but as a long-time SJG supporter I wanted to watch this particular shitshow.

Was actually hoping they would ban me for decrying the moderation; I can only imagine the reason they didn't ban us was some attempt at conjuring the appearance of impartiality.

You do know that you four just made the list, right?

If I was a betting man I would wager that you are all gone in under 4 weeks.

According to Stacy, the crime is that Webb drinks. Again, I searched public records back 10 years and no sign of a DUI or other such problems which are pretty common for people with drinking issues.

The "Frog" that "misgendered" them is an independent contractor, not part of the company. I read the Facebook thread where this supposedly happened and it did not happen as Stacy said it did. When they were working as a contractor for FGG, they identified as a woman.

They are not the morality police about drinking, they do not run the cons or own or operate the hotels and since they just doubled down on the "victims told me" narrative, they will face more questioning under oath.

They also just admitted that Webb's account in accurate. There is an insinuation that there is more, but, again, no details.

I wonder if the angry horde at the purple side will be able to accept the facts that maybe this is not so cut and dry, and that an outrage mob and banning for any questions maybe is not the best action. Maybe they are trusting the wrong people.

Aha!  OK, so the Facebook post links to a statement from Bill Webb on the Frog God Games site, which I gather is the source of the Youtuber video that was posted earlier.

https://froggodgames.com/frogs/statement-by-bill-webb/

I'm comparing this first with Christopher Helton's summary of statements on ENWorld.  

http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?4613-Harassment-At-PaizoCon-2017

Helton's summary was vague that In an incident involving alcohol, Webb allegedly sexually harassed another guest at the convention and when a staffer attempted to intervene and injury occurred with the staffer. Webb doesn't mention that someone was injured or what happened to them. Matt Finch of Frog God Games gave an also vague statement that Bill Webb took an action and engaged in speech that could be construed as a sexual advance or as gender-dismissive - which also doesn't mention an injury.

The other point is the statements from Paizo CEO Lisa Stevens and the target BJ Hensley on the Paizo boards, which apparently was quoted later as she initially didn't want it to be public - but of course now is.

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uoph?Open-Letter-From-Paizo-CEO-Lisa-Stevens

Hensley's statement was not details but she did say that the behavior was very inappropriate and unwanted, and that the individual stalked her though the halls while too drunk to drive. It doesn't sound to me like Hensley is talking about the cigarette offer or the arm around her, but rather something more.


My impression is that Stevens and Hensley had originally wanted this resolved quietly with Webb's agreement. However, Helton and Dellorfano insisted on further action against Webb, such that he is now suing all of them. It sounds like Webb is admitting to certain acts and apologizing for those, but is denying other actions that Hensley alludes to.

Quote from: jhkim;1085654Aha!  OK, so the Facebook post links to a statement from Bill Webb on the Frog God Games site, which I gather is the source of the Youtuber video that was posted earlier.

https://froggodgames.com/frogs/statement-by-bill-webb/

I'm comparing this first with Christopher Helton's summary of statements on ENWorld.  

http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?4613-Harassment-At-PaizoCon-2017

Helton's summary was vague that In an incident involving alcohol, Webb allegedly sexually harassed another guest at the convention and when a staffer attempted to intervene and injury occurred with the staffer. Webb doesn't mention that someone was injured or what happened to them. Matt Finch of Frog God Games gave an also vague statement that Bill Webb took an action and engaged in speech that could be construed as a sexual advance or as gender-dismissive - which also doesn't mention an injury.

The other point is the statements from Paizo CEO Lisa Stevens and the target BJ Hensley on the Paizo boards, which apparently was quoted later as she initially didn't want it to be public - but of course now is.

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uoph?Open-Letter-From-Paizo-CEO-Lisa-Stevens

Hensley's statement was not details but she did say that the behavior was very inappropriate and unwanted, and that the individual stalked her though the halls while too drunk to drive. It doesn't sound to me like Hensley is talking about the cigarette offer or the arm around her, but rather something more.


My impression is that Stevens and Hensley had originally wanted this resolved quietly with Webb's agreement. However, Helton and Dellorfano insisted on further action against Webb, such that he is now suing all of them. It sounds like Webb is admitting to certain acts and apologizing for those, but is denying other actions that Hensley alludes to.

But hey. Let's boycott SJG and Frog God and any Con that invites Bill Webb because every event is so crystal clear.

Quote from: Shasarak;1085640You do know that you four just made the list, right?

If I was a betting man I would wager that you are all gone in under 4 weeks.

And that is the terrible thing about RPG.net. It can be a fairly nice place. I have never had a problem over there. I have though seen some pretty crack-headed statements over there though by members and just tend to avoid those threads.

Quote from: Shasarak;1085640You do know that you four just made the list, right?

If I was a betting man I would wager that you are all gone in under 4 weeks.

Or even sooner than that. While getting insulted by a mod and they will invent an new wird such as cross forum micro aggression pillinstion or something to that effect.

I still don't get that first copied tweet in Webb's statement.

QuoteTo my knowledge, Bill has never hit anyone. The confusion came b/c the report said that someone was injured stopping him, but that was a case of "I'm not on physical shape to confront a drunk and injured my arm pulling him away," not Bill being violent.

I don't know how physically pulling a drunk away from someone doesn't equate to physically confronting the drunk? I'm guessing it's more to do with "there was no rollaround fighting". Either way, Webb doesn't explain that or deny that, and I don't know if we have other information about that incident.

But ISTM if someone gets injured pulling a drunk off / away from another person, that injury is ultimately on the drunk, even if the injury was unintended.

Quote from: wmarshal;1085631Now that there is a lawsuit Stacy has decided to ignore the actions she took against SJG, GaryCon etc.

https://m.facebook.com/sdellorfano/posts/2472197469459742

Per the above statement it's all just about Bill Webb. Maybe it should be (Or not. We should find out more as the process rolls on.), but she pretends she didn't lead a boycott against Gary Con or try to rile up an internet mob against SJG. No mention of those actions though it's almost guaranteed those will play a significant role in suit.

Stacy really needs to stop posting things online and consult an attorney. She's giving the plaintiffs more ammo to use against her

Quote from: Omega;1085722And that is the terrible thing about RPG.net. It can be a fairly nice place. I have never had a problem over there. I have though seen some pretty crack-headed statements over there though by members and just tend to avoid those threads.

Honestly, if you stuck to just the D&D Forum you'd probably think it was a relatively normal place. Sure, there's a thread on "decolonizing D&D" about halfway down the first page, but there's also plenty of "Let's Read" threads, one on fantastic elements you could put in your game and general how to deal with running/playing the game issues.

If that was the place you visited, you'd probably think the most common reason for banning was edition warring.

Quote from: Chocolate Sauce;1085733Stacy really needs to stop posting things online and consult an attorney. She's giving the plaintiffs more ammo to use against her

So much this.

Quote from: Chocolate Sauce;1085733Stacy really needs to stop posting things online and consult an attorney. She's giving the plaintiffs more ammo to use against her

She's too dumb to know that continuing to slander a guy like this is also grounds for a lawsuit.

"That's BJ's story to tell, just know that it wasn't this one, isolated incident." - ORLY? 1) BJ Hensley hasn't said shizzle yet and 2) isn't this just making up more unsubstantiated nonsense?

Quote from: wmarshal;1085631Now that there is a lawsuit Stacy has decided to ignore the actions she took against SJG, GaryCon etc.

https://m.facebook.com/sdellorfano/posts/2472197469459742

Per the above statement it's all just about Bill Webb. Maybe it should be (Or not. We should find out more as the process rolls on.), but she pretends she didn't lead a boycott against Gary Con or try to rile up an internet mob against SJG. No mention of those actions though it's almost guaranteed those will play a significant role in suit.

From Stacy:
"He wants you to think this is about behavior he *didn't* do, but it's not about that at all. This is strictly, 110% about things he's already said he did."
Which was.....? I can't believe how much of this shit I have read now, and it's STILL not clear what this egregious action actually was.

Quote from: sureshot;1085726Or even sooner than that. While getting insulted by a mod and they will invent an new wird such as cross forum micro aggression pillinstion or something to that effect.

Moderator sealion dogpiling? :D

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1085614The Human Resource version of "believe the victim" is a gross distortion of a (valid) psychological counseling technique.  Trying to apply it to anything gaming related is even more of a distortion, with less training, less understanding, and thus more opportunity to, well, achieve a level of foolishness not available to your mere mortal, average fool.  It's something you'd need to work up to gradually, by say, hanging around a group of screaming people with logic problems for long periods of time.

"Believe the victim" doesn't mean "Take the accusations seriously."  That's the distortion.  What it means is something more akin to:  While engaged in counseling and trying to determine why the person who has suffered trauma is suffering it, there are ways of asking questions and listening that are beneficial and others that are harmful.  Mainly, it refers to feelings.  If the victim freaks out when spiders are encountered, take them at their word that they freak out about spiders.  Don't assume they know why they freak out when spiders are encountered, though.  The more nasty the trauma, the more likely they won't know--which is probably why they are in counseling in the first place.  

Given that distinction, I hope it is obvious why the statement "believe the victim" is meaningless in an RPG context.  An RPG convention has a much more limited form of the same concerns that an HR department does.  Essentially, they need to be seen to have exercised some diligence in any nasty situation that might reflect on their bottom line, ability to continue to operate, legal responsibility, etc.  Such decisions can be made to help particular people, but more often they are made for public relations reasons, vague legal worries, or more often simple bureaucratic inertia.

So let's stop pretending that the convention banning anyone for anything short of illegal acts or repeated harassment has anything to do with "victims" at all.  It's the convention looking out for itself.  Nothing wrong with that as far as it goes.  Such groups make hard decisions all the time about who they want to attract or repel, and then they take the benefits and costs that go with those decisions.  The preening over looking out for victims is self-indulgent nonsense.  "Take problems seriously" is good at the convention level (or any level).  Pretending that "believe the victim" has anything to do with it, is delusional.

This is correct. Someone should have quoted it sooner saying so.

We are fleshy human blobs and should react to each other with compassion and empathy in our direct interactions.

Quote from: Chris24601;1085734Honestly, if you stuck to just the D&D Forum you'd probably think it was a relatively normal place. Sure, there's a thread on "decolonizing D&D" about halfway down the first page, but there's also plenty of "Let's Read" threads, one on fantastic elements you could put in your game and general how to deal with running/playing the game issues.

If that was the place you visited, you'd probably think the most common reason for banning was edition warring.

I agree.  There's a lot of good discussion over there, but there's also a lot of politics that creeps into some threads.  I usually just tend to ignore those threads and stick with the gaming-only messages, but sometimes it's difficult.

As I get older, I see the wisdom in the old "don't talk politics or religion" stance.  It gets really old when someone starts talking politics and all of a sudden the forums polarize.

Is Stacy's Facebook statement longer with different details than when it was first posted?

Quote from: wmarshal;1085631Now that there is a lawsuit Stacy has decided to ignore the actions she took against SJG, GaryCon etc.

https://m.facebook.com/sdellorfano/posts/2472197469459742

Per the above statement it's all just about Bill Webb. Maybe it should be (Or not. We should find out more as the process rolls on.), but she pretends she didn't lead a boycott against Gary Con or try to rile up an internet mob against SJG. No mention of those actions though it's almost guaranteed those will play a significant role in suit.

Wow, this was an unbearable read. Good to see everything has been completely sorted out though!:rolleyes: Also I'm not sure what "aggressively misgendered" means but now the accusations are spreading to MORE FGG employees! Ha! "Attacked, threatened, blacklisted, brigaded, more"????? "For your victims, it's a lifetime sentence" LOL! Apparently the lawyer is alt-right too, by the way. Who knew!

This rollercoaster just refuses to stop. How long until she accuses herself of something and collapses into a singularity of her own making?

I love how she's essentially calling for Bill's head at this point. "Bill, it's simple. Resign. Take a couple years off from the con circuit." "You do that, we lay off." A lynch mob coming after him after his sentencing in their court of public opinion, and seemingly attempted blackmail and blatantly publicized deliberate harassment as well. Ridiculous.

I hope the suit happens and she gets sued into the dirt.

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1085637Oh how fucking glorious! You can feel the panic rising as the objections rise. Yet instead of owning their actions (like, y'know, they've been insisting SJG, Webb and FGG do), or apologizing and backing down (like, y'know, SJG should be doing), they squeal, panic, and lock the shit-show so they don't have to listen to the unwashed fucking masses. Fucking hypocrits.

Hypocrites indeed. Although I'm not sure they have the mental faculties necessary to feel panic, let alone summon rational thought or self-awareness.

Quote from: Shasarak;1085640You do know that you four just made the list, right?

If I was a betting man I would wager that you are all gone in under 4 weeks.

God I hope so. I could use some more personal vindication.

Quote from: Trond;1085740Moderator sealion dogpiling? :D

This is just nonsensical enough to be possible. Or possibly "red-text bully sympathy trolling".

Quote from: Motorskills;1085729But ISTM if someone gets injured pulling a drunk off / away from another person, that injury is ultimately on the drunk, even if the injury was unintended.

Actually, if that drunk wasn't an imminent physical threat to someone, then putting hands on them can be a crime. Even if the drunk is talking shit (so long as they are not making credible threats), there is no need to put hands on them. Just call the police and let them deal with the disruptive asshole.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1085751Actually, if that drunk wasn't an imminent physical threat to someone, then putting hands on them can be a crime. Even if the drunk is talking shit (so long as they are not making credible threats), there is no need to put hands on them. Just call the police and let them deal with the disruptive asshole.

And that assumes that Webb was actually drunk. Considering the lack of facts so far coming from the accusations, they could have easily assumed he was drunk and he wasn't.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1085753And that assumes that Webb was actually drunk. Considering the lack of facts so far coming from the accusations, they could have easily assumed he was drunk and he wasn't.

Actually, it wouldn't matter if he were drunk or not. All that matters is if her is an imminent physical threat.

Oh lord.

https://transfelinism.wordpress.com/2019/05/02/sincerely-with-love-steve-jackson-doesnt-care-about-victims-of-sexual-harassment/

Quote from: PUBLISHED BY DISGRUNTLED CATGIRLI'm Asian, trans, and pansexual. I'm also an Anarchist, Atheist, and Transhumanist. I code AIs by day, write games by night, and fight social injustice the rest of the time.

Mmmmmkaaaay...

Quote from: kythri;1085759Mmmmmkaaaay...

Haha holy shit, I'd managed to miss that.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1085758Oh lord.

https://transfelinism.wordpress.com/2019/05/02/sincerely-with-love-steve-jackson-doesnt-care-about-victims-of-sexual-harassment/

Ah, Wormmonda. This is the piece of work that quite recently decided to do an assassination job on some Kickstarter Heartbreaker, by calling out how utterly Nazi they were for creating a game that eschewed the NuThink and espoused 'traditional' fantasy values. And to be truthful, there was a grain of truth in some of what she/it/whatever was saying. But just like Delafornicate, she sees it as something of her job description to deliberately hunt for and character assassinate what she perceives to be Sins Against the Victims and Righteous Innocents, twisting away with increasing vitriol, until she whips up a spiteful hate mob of blood-baying fuck-knuckles.

So I don't buy her "I'm no longer an active member of the RPGnet forums, but I still lurk there every once in a while to get my gaming news", because she was plenty active quite recently.

Unpleasant piece of work.

The more I read stuff like this... the more I am concerned for our society-at-large.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1085753And that assumes that Webb was actually drunk. Considering the lack of facts so far coming from the accusations, they could have easily assumed he was drunk and he wasn't.

We've had people on this forum confirm that Webb is (was) a habitual drunk at conventions and was "high-strung". His decision-making abilities seem flawed at best*. And AFAIK, Webb isn't denying that he was drunk, that put his arms around a colleague and called her 'sweetie', which is unprofessional at best (especially to a subordinate / contractor).

*Edit: which is why using some low level of force to remove him from the situation could be justified, for the safety of others. IANAL / IANALEO.

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1085761Unpleasant piece of work.

By her writing, she appears to be fairly unhinged.

Quote from: Chunkthulhu;1085765The more I read stuff like this... the more I am concerned for our society-at-large.

You and me both, brother.

Quote from: Chunkthulhu;1085765The more I read stuff like this... the more I am concerned for our society-at-large.

You and me both, brother.

Fairly? Understatement of the week.

https://froggodgames.com/frogs/joint-statement-of-bj-hensley-and-frog-god-games/?fbclid=IwAR2xl73p4vKPnRjGDZpmlw-bmbqNzCHdDq74ZxRx2V3_QLYwROztbDb1tm0

QuoteJoint Statement of BJ Hensley and Frog God Games

Nearly two years ago, both BJ Hensley and Bill Webb attended Paizo Con 2017 representing their respective companies. On the first day of the convention, Bill Webb engaged in several inappropriate and unprofessional interactions with BJ Hensley. Since then, many third parties have commented, weighed in, and in some cases, exaggerated what happened. BJ Hensley and Frog God Games now jointly call for a cessation of attacks by all third parties on either/both BJ Hensley and Frog God Games.

In concert with this desire, both parties have agreed not to engage in any litigation against the other. Everyone involved simply wants resolution and peace. Both parties want this to be a teachable moment that does not further divide but encourages everyone to consider how they can improve their own behaviors and the behaviors of those around them.

Finally, both parties believe that all members, companies, and conventions involved in the tabletop gaming industry need to adhere to and actively promote a higher code of conduct that ensures respect, safety, and welcome spaces for each and every participant in the tabletop gaming hobby.

As a gesture of good faith Frog God Games will donate the charitable portion of one of their next charity bundles to RAINN (Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network) in addition to an immediate donation to RAINN in the amount of $1,000.00.

Additional Note from Frog God Games

In light of this joint statement, we would like to reiterate our request to our fans that they not make attacks on BJ in any way. As noted above, there are people who have exaggerated her words for their own benefit, but she has repeatedly and publicly attempted to stop that escalation. She is not the wrongdoer, and we ask that everyone please keep this in mind.

This will still not satisfy the mob.

Quote from: shoplifter;1085771This will still not satisfy the mob.

I would be surprised if it doesn't incite them. "Paying 1k is just lip service, they're trying to sweep this under the rug! Just because they say she did nothing wrong means nothing because Bill Webb hasn't stepped down yet so they're still victim-shaming! Worse, they're making excuses about it and saying some of the alleged victims may have EXAGGERATED the facts wtf??? Grab your firebombs, boys (he/him) and girls (she/her)!"

I may have actually made the understatement of the week

It boggles my mind that both parties have come out with a joint statement asking for everyone to cool their jets, and we're seriously considering that it's going to further incense unrelated and uninvolved parties.  Because that might (probably?) actually happen.  I just... I got nothing.

Yep. It's a mad, mad world out there.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1085757Actually, it wouldn't matter if he were drunk or not. All that matters is if her is an imminent physical threat.

Of course, but that is not the claim.

Quote from: Motorskills;1085766We've had people on this forum confirm that Webb is (was) a habitual drunk at conventions and was "high-strung". His decision-making abilities seem flawed at best*. And AFAIK, Webb isn't denying that he was drunk, that put his arms around a colleague and called her 'sweetie', which is unprofessional at best (especially to a subordinate / contractor).

*Edit: which is why using some low level of force to remove him from the situation could be justified, for the safety of others. IANAL / IANALEO.

There are also claims that he is able to DM and interact just fine at this supposed level of being drunk. No one will deny that he does drink (FGG also made a really untimed comment on that), but Webb did not say he was drunk or try and use it as an excuse. Many people drink at conventions, but the accusation is that he is a drunk. Since many other so called facts that were mentioned are not confirmed by Webb's account, I hold it quite possible that he was not drunk at the time of the incident and that discussion is just people with bad motives trying to smear Webb.

Quote from: shoplifter;1085771https://froggodgames.com/frogs/joint-statement-of-bj-hensley-and-frog-god-games/?fbclid=IwAR2xl73p4vKPnRjGDZpmlw-bmbqNzCHdDq74ZxRx2V3_QLYwROztbDb1tm0


This will still not satisfy the mob.

Nope. It's a sign of weakness. They'll press harder now.

I think Stacy is having some tears regarding that joint statement.

https://mobile.twitter.com/StacyRex/status/1124010040313229314

Bill Webb may or may not be an ass, but BJ decided for herself that she did not want the incident put on blast. Stacy and Chris couldn't let the opportunity to white knight for BJ pass, and now they find themselves in a jam of their own making.

Quote from: Motorskills;1085766We've had people on this forum confirm that Webb is (was) a habitual drunk at conventions and was "high-strung". His decision-making abilities seem flawed at best*. And AFAIK, Webb isn't denying that he was drunk, that put his arms around a colleague and called her 'sweetie', which is unprofessional at best (especially to a subordinate / contractor).

*Edit: which is why using some low level of force to remove him from the situation could be justified, for the safety of others. IANAL / IANALEO.

Yeah, he drinks a lot. The only flawed decision he made is assuming SJWs can be interacted with normally.

Quote from: Chunkthulhu;1085765The more I read stuff like this... the more I am concerned for our society-at-large.

I wouldn't be. These nutbags represent something like 1% of 1% of society in general. They just happen go be noisy as fuck on the internet. Probably because they have nothing better to do all day, any given day.

My biggest concern is for younger folks who for some reason think it's cool to be seen as part of this fringe extremist corner of our culture. And my only hope for them is that this is some kind of fad that will have its day and fade into obscurity, where it belongs.

Oh, and I doubt that bitch could code her way out of a paper bag, much less write an AI.

Perhaps this will be their thing they look back on, like older generations do for photos of themselves from the 80s, and go, "Holy shit, what was I thinking?"

Good to see FGG and B.J. Hensley have reached an understanding, and can treat this the way sane grownups should treat it: as a misstep, and not a life- and career-ruining crime. Not that it will put the snakes to rest, but hey. Sane grownups.

Now then,

Quote from: Antiquation!;1085758Oh lord.

https://transfelinism.wordpress.com/2019/05/02/sincerely-with-love-steve-jackson-doesnt-care-about-victims-of-sexual-harassment/

"Disgruntled Catgirl" is as far as you have to read to make an educated guess about the poster's mental health, and the avatar/word salad combo is not helping.

This is followed by the inevitable question: why should anyone take people with severe identity disorders seriously?

Quote from: Melan;1085797This is followed by the inevitable question: why should anyone take people with severe identity disorders seriously?

We shouldn't. I mean, we should treat identity disorders seriously as a subject matter, but the second you start taking what they say at face value and feeding into the inclinations and delusions of those individuals and pandering to them you really only contribute to exacerbating and effectively legitimizing their condition(s), with a greater risk of pushing to normalize such conditions and behaviors and increasingly attaching a stigma to people who oppose supporting and perpetuating such disorders.

This sort of feeds into a greater topic of mental health (which interests me greatly, as my fianceé's sister has been institutionalized for severe delusions/paranoia/mania multiple times, she's currently been there over two months), but I don't want to run the thread off-topic.

In any case, yes, anyone with an avatar + name combo like that is a HUGE red flag. As are a good deal of the username tags you would see over at TBP (Social Justice Barbarian, "(he/him)" etc.).

Quote from: PUBLISHED BY DISGRUNTLED CATGIRLI'm Asian, trans, and pansexual. I'm also an Anarchist, Atheist, and Transhumanist. I code AIs by day, write games by night, and fight social injustice the rest of the time.

Holy fuck, it's the Royal Flush of Lunacy Poker.....

Quote from: jeff37923;1085811Holy fuck, it's the Royal Flush of Lunacy Poker.....

LOL! Well put.

Quote from: Motorskills;1085766We've had people on this forum confirm that Webb is (was) a habitual drunk at conventions and was "high-strung". His decision-making abilities seem flawed at best*. And AFAIK, Webb isn't denying that he was drunk, that put his arms around a colleague and called her 'sweetie', which is unprofessional at best (especially to a subordinate / contractor).

*Edit: which is why using some low level of force to remove him from the situation could be justified, for the safety of others. IANAL / IANALEO.

Got some links to prove your assertion?

Should be easy since the source is "people on this forum".

Quote from: MotorskillsWe've had people on this forum confirm that Webb is (was) a habitual drunk at conventions and was "high-strung". His decision-making abilities seem flawed at best*. And AFAIK, Webb isn't denying that he was drunk, that put his arms around a colleague and called her 'sweetie', which is unprofessional at best (especially to a subordinate / contractor).

*Edit: which is why using some low level of force to remove him from the situation could be justified, for the safety of others. IANAL / IANALEO.

Quote from: jeff37923;1085814Got some links to prove your assertion?

Should be easy since the source is "people on this forum".

I suspect Motorskills is referring to Post #396 (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?40422-The-Woke-morons-are-going-after-Steve-Jackson-Games&p=1084623&viewfull=1#post1084623):

Quote from: Brad;1084623I've played in Bill Webb's convention games what, three or four times? Seen him at at least six conventions total. That dude is 1) super friendly, 2) extremely high strung, 3) and drinks heavily. His wife and kids are usually with him, which makes this whole thing seem suspect...at 2AM when someone has been drinking throughout the entire day still seems 100% lucid and "into gaming", while talking about his kids in front of a bunch of gamers with his wife present, it almost makes zero sense to me he'd be hitting on some young girl. Like when would he have the time? The dude is frantic as shit, running a ton of games and basically shilling his company. I'm inclined to agree with the whole offered the girl a cigarette and she freaked out. Even if it was a pass, so what? FGG telling Bill Webb to avoid talking to young autistic millennials who take everything out of context? Could totally see that happening. Bill Webb sexually assaulting someone? Nope.

And followup Post #407 (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?40422-The-Woke-morons-are-going-after-Steve-Jackson-Games&p=1084649&viewfull=1#post1084649):

Quote from: EOTB;1084649My experiences with Bill are very similar and my conclusion's the same.

Quote from: jeff37923;1085811Holy fuck, it's the Royal Flush of Lunacy Poker.....

That made me LOL so hard I spit my coffee all over my screen. Thanks for that.

He might be referring to a post that I remember agreeing with.

But if so, let me be clear: every year I've gone to GC or NTRPG, many people attending the con are/were just as tipsy as Bill Webb at any given time.  And at no time would I be worried about any female in my family getting assaulted by Bill Webb.  Lots of people like to have a few drinks at the con.  (And next year's con room rates are generally contingent on the hotel making X amount of money at the bar/kitchen this year)

Quote from: jhkim;1085817I suspect Motorskills is referring to Post #396 (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?40422-The-Woke-morons-are-going-after-Steve-Jackson-Games&p=1084623&viewfull=1#post1084623):


And followup Post #407 (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?40422-The-Woke-morons-are-going-after-Steve-Jackson-Games&p=1084649&viewfull=1#post1084649):

Neither of your quotes support Motorskill's assertion that "Webb is (was) a habitual drunk at conventions and was "high-strung".

Got anything that proves Motorskill's assertion correct?

Quote from: jeff37923;1085814Got some links to prove your assertion?

Should be easy since the source is "people on this forum".

I've seen Bill very drunk and flirtatious at cons, so I can verify that. I'm not sure what exactly is meant by "high-strung". Other people at cons are drunk and flirtatious, and that in and of itself I wouldn't think warrants banishment from the gaming community. I was NOT a witness to the incident at Paizo Con, which is the only incident I'm aware of with any specificity. Anything else seems to be people saying essentially "they've heard things through the grapevine" which isn't worth anything more than bad gossip. The initial FGG statement after PaizoCon led me to believe that Bill had done something that would be worthy of sanction, but between BJ asking to let it be, and Bill's version making it seem more an incident of being more like Joe Biden failing to respect personal boundaries rather than outright stalking, I've become inclined to think the Paizo incident should've stayed between BJ and Bill without others demanding to come in to the situation and "rescue" BJ against her will. I think BJ has the right to set her boundaries, and to feel freaked out if she feels they've been crossed, but others hyping this incident to demand Bill's exile is terrible. Joe Biden is still allowed to be the likely nominee of the Democratic party, right?

Quote from: jeff37923;1085824Neither of your quotes support Motorskill's assertion that "Webb is (was) a habitual drunk at conventions and was "high-strung".

Got anything that proves Motorskill's assertion correct?

Please reread the quotes, jeff37923. I am adding bold in the statement below to highlight those parts.

Quote from: BradI've played in Bill Webb's convention games what, three or four times? Seen him at at least six conventions total. That dude is 1) super friendly, 2) extremely high strung, 3) and drinks heavily.

Quote from: jhkim;1085836Please reread the quotes, jeff37923. I am adding bold in the statement below to highlight those parts.

Yeah, and that has nothing to do with him being called a drunk, which is just a way of saying alcoholic or someone who can't handle their booze. Bill Webb is nothing of the sort.

At this point, I'd prefer to respect Hensley and Webb's request in this matter. I've been posting factual references just to clarify what has been said, but I think now the attempt to beat drums is just a way to fan more outrage.

Some posters seem to be pushing that Hensley was lying and/or overreacting, and that Webb didn't do anything significantly wrong. But it seems to me from their statement that they are agreed he did wrong, that he apologized, and that they would prefer to leave it at that. I'm fine to accept that.

The thread is so much more fun when its about throwing mud at the woke morons, anyway. Cause that's always fun.

Quote from: jeff37923;1085824Neither of your quotes support Motorskill's assertion that "Webb is (was) a habitual drunk at conventions and was "high-strung".

Got anything that proves Motorskill's assertion correct?

Just lying and implying. But Motorskills is an idiot.

Getting drunk at a convention doesn't not a habitual drunk make.

Quote from: Chocolate Sauce;1085733Stacy really needs to stop posting things online and consult an attorney. She's giving the plaintiffs more ammo to use against her

Hush you! STACY KEEP POSTING!!!!

The LOLZ must flow!!

Quote from: Dr. Benton Quest;1085743As I get older, I see the wisdom in the old "don't talk politics or religion" stance.

That's why I ban politics at my game table, regardless if I agree with the politics discussed.

Elfgame time is sacred!

Quote from: Antiquation!;1085758https://transfelinism.wordpress.com/2019/05/02/sincerely-with-love-steve-jackson-doesnt-care-about-victims-of-sexual-harassment/

OMG. That's awesome!!!

Who knew you could take Crazy to the Crazy power?

Quote from: Chunkthulhu;1085765The more I read stuff like this... the more I am concerned for our society-at-large.

Society is fucked. Enjoy the fall, its like a waterslide!

BTW, forum member Opaopajr is our high priest of DEL-All. It's way more fun than Alt-Right or Ctrl-Left and involves asteroids.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1085777Nope. It's a sign of weakness. They'll press harder now.

Agreed. Never ever apologize to clowns.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1085792These nutbags represent something like 1% of 1% of society in general. They just happen go be noisy as fuck on the internet. Probably because they have nothing better to do all day, any given day.

Except most media and academia have either been converted to their cause, or pander to them.

When you have the mainstream media, the schools and social media, your reach is far greater than just being "noisy as fuck".

Quote from: jeff37923;1085811Holy fuck, it's the Royal Flush of Lunacy Poker.....

Notice the "pansexual" part? AKA "I'll fuck anything." Anything includes kids and animals.

That's a far different statement than being bisexual or even being open to a variety of fetishes.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1085863Anything includes kids and animals.

And trees, you dendrophobe.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1085863Notice the "pansexual" part? AKA "I'll fuck anything." Anything includes kids and animals.

That's a far different statement than being bisexual or even being open to a variety of fetishes.

I just assumed that was their way of saying "I'd be willing to fuck anything, but nothing has ever offered."

...although it definitely took some chutzpah for them to refer to the attorney as a 'nutcase'.

Quote from: shoplifter;1085771This will still not satisfy the mob.

Partially because there are people out there who fan the flames of hate. For fun. Posing as one side or the other. But in realith neither. Just there to instigate. No. Really. A few years back I found out a customer of mine was doing this and I stopped dealing with them thereafter.

Quote from: Chunkthulhu;1085774It boggles my mind that both parties have come out with a joint statement asking for everyone to cool their jets, and we're seriously considering that it's going to further incense unrelated and uninvolved parties.  Because that might (probably?) actually happen.  I just... I got nothing.

That is the simple fact of how insane these SJWs are. Nothing you do will appease them. Nothing. Even if Webb, FGG and SJG all went out of business right now and admitted total guilt they'd still demand more.

Quote from: kythri;1085866And trees, you dendrophobe.

And pink haired anime holograms if userpic checks out!

Quote from: Chunkthulhu;1085774It boggles my mind that both parties have come out with a joint statement asking for everyone to cool their jets, and we're seriously considering that it's going to further incense unrelated and uninvolved parties.  Because that might (probably?) actually happen.  I just... I got nothing.

Here's the thing though, if they keep pushing it despite BJ Hesnley and FGG having released the statement that might be casus belli for Ty Beard.  And then paperwork starts flying out.  Honestly it's a perfect trap.  How long can Stacy D., Chris Helton, and Jessica Price keep their mouths shut?  How long can they put up with it?

Quote from: Lurtch;1085856Just lying and implying. But Motorskills is an idiot.

Getting drunk at a convention doesn't not a habitual drunk make.

Eh, drunk enough to put his arm around someone that didn't want it, (by Webb's own admission), parse that however you want. I know lots of people that like plenty of alcohol at conventions. A minority of them make bad decisions as a result. Webb appears to be in that category, YMMV.

I'm fine with the joint statement from Hensley and Webb, though I will see of Webb follows Hensley's previous request (?) / suggestion (?) to avoid cons for a while. The donation to charity is a good action as well. We'll see.

Quote from: Motorskills;1085890I'm fine with the joint statement from Hensley and Webb, though I will see of Webb follows Hensley's previous request (?) / suggestion (?) to avoid cons for a while. The donation to charity is a good action as well. We'll see.

I don't recall Hensley ever making this request. I know that 3rd parties have made demanded Bill be banned by cons, but not by Hensley herself. Do you have a link to such a request made by Hensley?

Her original statement on the Paizo forums is disturbing to read. It does not seem to match Bill's statement. However, it's perfectly possible for Hensley's experience to be different from Bill's recollection of the event, but they decided 2 years ago to try to put this behind them.

I don't think Stacy, Chris and Jessica, who keep on bringing this back up, are doing so in good faith, but rather to gain status and financial backing for their various projects/brands.  Now that they've carried their own vendetta (Not Hensley's since she asked for this to be over with) against FGG to the point of attacking the contracts FGG has with other parties it looks like they're getting sued. When Bill withdrew as a GoH from Gary Con all three should have declared victory and moved on if they were smart/sincere. But they're not so here we are.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1085758Oh lord.

https://transfelinism.wordpress.com/2019/05/02/sincerely-with-love-steve-jackson-doesnt-care-about-victims-of-sexual-harassment/

Holy shit. That's crazy. Here I was starting to think the world was getting back to normal and then this. Is she serious?

Quote from: shoplifter;1085771https://froggodgames.com/frogs/joint-statement-of-bj-hensley-and-frog-god-games/?fbclid=IwAR2xl73p4vKPnRjGDZpmlw-bmbqNzCHdDq74ZxRx2V3_QLYwROztbDb1tm0




This will still not satisfy the mob.

Well it makes me happy.

Quote from: wmarshal;1085898I don't recall Hensley ever making this request..

It's a reply to Stacy's FB post. (https://m.facebook.com/sdellorfano/posts/2472197469459742)

Quote from: Jason Coplen;1085903Holy shit. That's crazy. Here I was starting to think the world was getting back to normal and then this. Is she serious?

No, go look at other posts, that's not the work of a sane person.

Well, OK, she might be serious, but not sensible.

Quote from: jhkim;1085847At this point, I'd prefer to respect Hensley and Webb's request in this matter. I've been posting factual references just to clarify what has been said, but I think now the attempt to beat drums is just a way to fan more outrage.

Quote from: Motorskills;1085890I'm fine with the joint statement from Hensley and Webb, though I will see of Webb follows Hensley's previous request (?) / suggestion (?) to avoid cons for a while. The donation to charity is a good action as well. We'll see.

"If you can't show proof, your claims go *poof*."

You know, for some reason I'm reminded of the fable The Emperor's New Clothes, though I can't imagine why. ;)

The joint statement is a sensible move, and all reasonable people will accept the position both parties want to take and let life move on.

So it'll be interesting to see how the Purple Brained Bastards over at RPGKremlin react, and if Helton, Delofarno and Price maintain their vendetta. The joint statement makes no mention of the Gang of Three being immune to litigation. If they have a brain cell between them, they'll shut the fuck up. Let's see if they take the hint.

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1085958The joint statement is a sensible move, and all reasonable people will accept the position both parties want to take and let life move on.

So it'll be interesting to see how the Purple Brained Bastards over at RPGKremlin react, and if Helton, Delofarno and Price maintain their vendetta. The joint statement makes no mention of the Gang of Three being immune to litigation. If they have a brain cell between them, they'll shut the fuck up. Let's see if they take the hint.

I honestly don't think that Gang of Three is unintelligent, but unwise and/or just crazy. Maybe socially retarded?

I honestly don't think that Gang of Three is unintelligent, but unwise and/or just crazy. Maybe socially retarded?

My bad: "...iota of common sense between them..."

You're right; they're not stupid, but they are on a crusade, and fanaticism frequently means intelligence takes a back seat.

Quote from: Motorskills;1085890Eh, drunk enough to put his arm around someone that didn't want it, (by Webb's own admission), parse that however you want. I know lots of people that like plenty of alcohol at conventions. A minority of them make bad decisions as a result. Webb appears to be in that category, YMMV.

I'm fine with the joint statement from Hensley and Webb, though I will see of Webb follows Hensley's previous request (?) / suggestion (?) to avoid cons for a while. The donation to charity is a good action as well. We'll see.

I think its more a problem of getting drunk at a con now... We now live in a time where there are people either primed for or actively looking for chances to accuse someone of harassment over just about anything. Pre-2010 or so Webbs antics would have been most likely laughed off by the girl. Or her just getting annoyed. Which may be what actually happened? Getting drunk at a con is no longer a safe thing to do. (Was not exactly safe before either.) Sooner, or later, probably sooner, you are going to step on a landmine.

Quote from: Omega;1085968I think its more a problem of getting drunk at a con now... We now live in a time where there are people either primed for or actively looking for chances to accuse someone of harassment over just about anything. Pre-2010 or so Webbs antics would have been most likely laughed off by the girl. Or her just getting annoyed. Which may be what actually happened? Getting drunk at a con is no longer a safe thing to do. (Was not exactly safe before either.) Sooner, or later, probably sooner, you are going to step on a landmine.

Well of course. It was never okay to put your arm around someone else, it just wasn't reacted to in the same way. Webb might have known better - probably did know better - alcohol likely played a factor in his actions, not that that excuses anything.

What's that they say about police brutality? It isn't getting worse, it's getting filmed.
Likewise in the MeToo era, it's not that this stuff never happened before, it's that people are no longer staying quiet about it. Sure there's a debate to be had about the calls for boycotts of companies etc, but I for one am okay with individuals getting called out on this stuff.

The Purple Brained Bastards at RPGkremlin speak...

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/frog-god-games-has-made-a-statement-on-bill-webb-and-his-harassment-at-paizocon-mod-note-see-redtext-in-op.845447/

And true to form, leap in with daggers drawn and teeth bared. Leading the charge: CrazyCatGirl herself, who doesn't really use RPGnet these days, except when there's a juicy pogrom to be had.

What a poxy bunch of fucking shits. Scum, the fucking lot of them.

BJ Hensley's made her own statement on facebook. Took me all of a minute to find it.

https://www.facebook.com/bj.hensley.1/posts/10156399940262861

The SJW's denying agency to the victim of the incident would almost be funny if their insane zealotry wasn't so scary. They immediately go into either assuming Hensley was forced into the statement or accuse her for selling out. They are being denied a crusade to give their lives greater meaning. It'll be interesting to see how many double down, and how many pause to take examine how they were getting manipulated by Stacy, Chris and Jessica.

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1085983The Purple Brained Bastards at RPGkremlin speak...

How hilariously predictable.

Edit: I think it's fucking hilarious that Phil Reed's TBP "custom title" is "Unwanted Commentator."

Quote from: Motorskills;1085978Well of course. It was never okay to put your arm around someone else, it just wasn't reacted to in the same way.

Like in general or what..?

Also looked at that RPG.net thread...why does this remind me of the Mueller report? Surely she HAS to have been coerced into making this statement even though it's been repeated many times she was 100% complicit.

Kudos to Terrible Tony (post #19) for actually doing something sensible. I hope others follow suit.

Or is he gonna get crapped on by the Stalinist Self-Righteously-Offended Squad and then banned by the Moderator Stalinist Execution Team?

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1086001Kudos to Terrible Tony (post #19) for actually doing something sensible. I hope others follow suit.

Or is he gonna get crapped on by the Stalinist Self-Righteously-Offended Squad and then banned by the Moderator Stalinist Execution Team?

I think he doomed that thread to being closed. The direction the thread was headed in wouldn't suit them. Hensley asked that the matter be closed back in 2017, and if Stacy, Chris, Jessica and PST had honored that request this train wreck of the outrage mob could have been avoided altogether. I don't think they're honoring Hensley's request out of respect for her wishes, but because they wound up in a losing position.

With the threads on TBP being closed, and the 3rd parties that were attacking SJG laying low should we consider keeping clear of the PaizoCon incident as much as possible? With the joint statement it seems a moot point. I'm sure Stacy and gang will give us more to talk about before long, but the specific incident at PaizoCon seems to be a "dead horse" practically speaking.

QuoteI think he doomed that thread to being closed. The direction the thread was headed in wouldn't suit them. Hensley asked that the matter be closed back in 2017, and if Stacy, Chris, Jessica and PST had honored that request this train wreck of the outrage mob could have been avoided altogether. I don't think they're honoring Hensley's request out of respect for her wishes, but because they wound up in a losing position.

Right on the money there.

QuoteWith the threads on TBP being closed, and the 3rd parties that were attacking SJG laying low should we consider keeping clear of the PaizoCon incident as much as possible. With the joint statement it seems a moot point. I'm sure Stacy and gang will give us more to talk about before long, but the specific incident at PaizoCon seems to be a "dead horse" practically speaking.

Agree with you 100%. They'll already be on the hunt for their next unsuspecting victim.