We're all Russian bots funded by Putin to Dehumanise his enemies by calling them NPCs.

Quote from: EOTB;1083400Put em up.  In the amount of time it took you to type that you could have shown the whole world.

Fine, we'll start with you first...

Here is a screenshot of a post over on DF showing what you actually think of the original TSR folks...

https://imgur.com/4HN14Y3


Then a few posts later. you off pontificating about Sherlock Holmes of all things... Not D&D, not old school gaming, nothing really about RPGs, Nothing I would want to visit your message board for, to be sure.

https://imgur.com/2sgphq5

Here, lets take a quick look at DF back in 2004, shall we? We'll use this to compare with how Dragonsfoot looks today, this is important because there have been some subtle changes over the years, and those changes have taken the focus away from original D&D and 1eAD&D, and on to other things. These changes have taken the focus away from many of the original contributors especially and including the Alumni of TSR, all justified, the mods there say. I respectfully disagree here and now, and I'll provide some specific reasons why, shortly...

Dragonsfoot as it looked in August 2004

https://imgur.com/igfQlrq

Notice here that there is a General Discussion area, a classified, and then, right at the the top 1eAD&D, 2e AD&D, Classic D&D, and also Gary's Greyhawk, there is also a space for players (board guests) to place their campaign journals... This is all of the original D&D and early years of TSR.

Here is another screenshot from January of 2005 of the General Discussion area...



Notice here, the stickied threads right at the top of the General Discussion area, these threads highlight the original TSR crew that were kind enough to share their early gaming and RPG experiences. This was a big draw for old school gamers, and an endorsement of Dragonsfoot.

Here in 2015 the TSR Q&A Threads were moved away from the General Discussion area and "Isolated" into their own thread separate. I really wish I could find some of the ongoing posts from discussions from that time, because there were some heated confrontations behind all of this, and behind this decision.



Now here is a screenshot from January of 2016, notice that you don't see any of the threads leading to the original 1e, 2e & classic D&D posts from TSR anymore. Out of sight, out of mind, eh? As I alleged earlier, and now proven... DRAGONSFOOT - GUILTY OF REMOVING OR CONCEALING ORIGINAL D&D AND TSR POSTS & THREADS provided by many original fans of the game...



Here is Dragonsfoot as it appears right now, in 2019...



You can see the 1eAD&D thread, and the classic D&D threads, way down on the list... The psychological implications of this placement indicate that original D&D and AD&D are no longer viewed by the mods there as important. This is ironic considering that the original draw to this site was because of TSR's original D&D and AD&D. This is also what drew the TSR alumni to the site, who were happy to share, but many of them, even before Frank was banned, stopped sharing there, I wonder if anyone there cared to ask why?... The TSR Alumni threads were then separated from the rest of the threads, and what is implied with this, in unspoken terms, is that they should not be considered as RPG Gamers on par with the rest of the gamers that are a part of Dragonsfoot.

This is why I stopped visiting, and contributing at Dragonsfoot.

I believe this also sent a message, a message that may have been perhaps unintended, to those Woke Morons that make up the SJW, and that message is, that it's ok to diss on the crew that made up the original RPGs, because they are Evvvuulll and not worthy of respect. Congratulations, the SJW have certainly endorsed your message, and appear quite unwilling to put away their torches and pitchforks.

QuoteYou MAY NOT use the terms "agenda", "ideology", "politics", or "propaganda" in relation to the inclusion of people slightly different to you in gaming products or other media, use pejorative terms such as "social justice warrior" or "virtue signalling" to dismiss the opinions of those you disagree with...

Jonathan Haidt has it exactly right: These people have come to regard whole realms of discourse as essentially sacred. Like the devoutly religious, they're motivated by Truths that cannot be challenged. I think a lot of them don't even understand the ideological and academic underpinnings of their beliefs. They just subscribe to a whole host of assumptions because it's what good people in their sub culture do. And they can't imagine that anyone who challenges those assumptions has any motivation except malice. Skepticism, reason, nuance, and empiricism are not welcome.

As I remarked in the BGG thread, the problem isn't that a bunch of zealots are going through a moral panic. The problem is that a much larger group of people - site owners, mods, publishers, and gamers - have gone along with this moral panic out of misplaced loyalty. Or cowardice of being the next target of the zealots. I doubt more than 25 per cent of the people who post on ENWorld agree with those terms. But they go along with them anyway. Sad.

Hey Gamedaddy the first few attachments are coming across as link invalid.

Gamedaddy, none of your attachment links seem to work.

Looks like a technical issue with the vBulletin Board here. I have relinked all of the screenshots to images I have stored over on Imgur, so that if you click on them now, you'll see them clearly.

Well, TBP has picked it up. With the same result thus far that you would expect.

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/sjg-offering-partial-refunds-and-continuing-to-work-with-bill-webb.844606/

Quote from: Antiquation!;1083439Well, TBP has picked it up. With the same result thus far that you would expect.

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/sjg-offering-partial-refunds-and-continuing-to-work-with-bill-webb.844606/

Well at least I can say this issue is real now.

Not sure what the overlap between TBP story game enthusiast and GURPS players is but something tells me this won't affect SJG's bottom line.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1083438Looks like a technical issue with the vBulletin Board here. I have relinked all of the screenshots to images I have stored over on Imgur, so that if you click on them now, you'll see them clearly.

It's because you are using web pages as images. You need to use IMG tags with actual images.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1083439Well, TBP has picked it up. With the same result thus far that you would expect.

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/sjg-offering-partial-refunds-and-continuing-to-work-with-bill-webb.844606/

Color me shocked and surprised. Pretty soon some of them angry at SJgames will have no rpgs left on their shelves beyond one huge banner side to side in day glow orange written FULLY WOKE. Hopefully they don't cave to the mentally ill mob and goid on them for standing up so far to the SJWs.

Quote from: Haffrung;1083434Jonathan Haidt has it exactly right: These people have come to regard whole realms of discourse as essentially sacred. Like the devoutly religious, they're motivated by Truths that cannot be challenged.

And if you challenge their beliefs, you're branded an heretic. That is : a bad and morally failing person. You're not an ideological opponent as much as an unbeliever. This is very much a Christian perspective. That is, a retrograde and vitiated Chistian perspective. I've got nothing against Christianity: I just want to point out that, in my opinion, these people are the bastard children of Judeo-Christian culture and Marxist theories.

Quote from: HaffrungI think a lot of them don't even understand the ideological and academic underpinnings of their beliefs. They just subscribe to a whole host of assumptions because it's what good people in their sub culture do.

I agree. They've got their Dogma, and it's sufficient for them. I suspect they're attracted to the dogma in the first place because thinking (really thinking) is hard, and their dogmatic faith shields them somewhat from the troubling uncertainties of the contemporary world.

Quote from: HaffrungAnd they can't imagine that anyone who challenges those assumptions has any motivation except malice. Skepticism, reason, nuance, and empiricism are not welcome.

That's so very true. As all fanaticism-inclined minds, they tend to think of the other ones - those who don't share their views - as malevolent.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1083428Fine, we'll start with you first...

Here is a screenshot of a post over on DF showing what you actually think of the original TSR folks...

https://imgur.com/4HN14Y3


Then a few posts later. you off pontificating about Sherlock Holmes of all things... Not D&D, not old school gaming, nothing really about RPGs, Nothing I would want to visit your message board for, to be sure.

https://imgur.com/2sgphq5

Here, lets take a quick look at DF back in 2004, shall we? We'll use this to compare with how Dragonsfoot looks today, this is important because there have been some subtle changes over the years, and those changes have taken the focus away from original D&D and 1eAD&D, and on to other things. These changes have taken the focus away from many of the original contributors especially and including the Alumni of TSR, all justified, the mods there say. I respectfully disagree here and now, and I'll provide some specific reasons why, shortly...

Dragonsfoot as it looked in August 2004

https://imgur.com/igfQlrq

Notice here that there is a General Discussion area, a classified, and then, right at the the top 1eAD&D, 2e AD&D, Classic D&D, and also Gary's Greyhawk, there is also a space for players (board guests) to place their campaign journals... This is all of the original D&D and early years of TSR.

Here is another screenshot from January of 2005 of the General Discussion area...



Notice here, the stickied threads right at the top of the General Discussion area, these threads highlight the original TSR crew that were kind enough to share their early gaming and RPG experiences. This was a big draw for old school gamers, and an endorsement of Dragonsfoot.

Here in 2015 the TSR Q&A Threads were moved away from the General Discussion area and "Isolated" into their own thread separate. I really wish I could find some of the ongoing posts from discussions from that time, because there were some heated confrontations behind all of this, and behind this decision.



Now here is a screenshot from January of 2016, notice that you don't see any of the threads leading to the original 1e, 2e & classic D&D posts from TSR anymore. Out of sight, out of mind, eh? As I alleged earlier, and now proven... DRAGONSFOOT - GUILTY OF REMOVING OR CONCEALING ORIGINAL D&D AND TSR POSTS & THREADS provided by many original fans of the game...



Here is Dragonsfoot as it appears right now, in 2019...



You can see the 1eAD&D thread, and the classic D&D threads, way down on the list... The psychological implications of this placement indicate that original D&D and AD&D are no longer viewed by the mods there as important. This is ironic considering that the original draw to this site was because of TSR's original D&D and AD&D. This is also what drew the TSR alumni to the site, who were happy to share, but many of them, even before Frank was banned, stopped sharing there, I wonder if anyone there cared to ask why?... The TSR Alumni threads were then separated from the rest of the threads, and what is implied with this, in unspoken terms, is that they should not be considered as RPG Gamers on par with the rest of the gamers that are a part of Dragonsfoot.

This is why I stopped visiting, and contributing at Dragonsfoot.

I believe this also sent a message, a message that may have been perhaps unintended, to those Woke Morons that make up the SJW, and that message is, that it's ok to diss on the crew that made up the original RPGs, because they are Evvvuulll and not worthy of respect. Congratulations, the SJW have certainly endorsed your message, and appear quite unwilling to put away their torches and pitchforks.

Thank you.  That's exactly the sort of stuff I suspected was actually behind your drive-by on DF, and I'm quite willing to be disliked by anyone who thinks this is worth disliking someone over.  I think the TSR crew were horribad businessmen who are so horribad they still don't understand where they fucked up; and also that deep immersion roleplay is not generally desired by most people who could be prospects for a different type of D&D experience.  

HANG HIM HIGH, SAYS YOU

As to the "purging" of TSR alumni, what you fail to bring to light was how many people were requesting the threads be moved, because as the number of stickies at the top of the general forum grew to over a dozen, people were complaining that the 1st page of the general forum was too short, and topics were falling off onto the 2nd page very quickly.

People didn't like their threads going on to page 2 where they received much less engagement.  

NOTE: I'm just a user over there, but apparently not all users are engaged enough with the site to know its pulse.

Sunlight - its the best.

EDIT - here's a thread from the suggestions section.  Note the reasons.  Note the response.  Note the response to the response.  NOTE THE DATE.

https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=67047&hilit=stickies&p=1535669&view=show#p1535669

You sir, are projecting all of his idol's fuck-ups on to those who you think should shut up and take it for the good of what you want out of the hobby.

Quote from: sureshot;1083448Color me shocked and surprised. Pretty soon some of them angry at SJgames will have no rpgs left on their shelves beyond one huge banner side to side in day glow orange written FULLY WOKE. Hopefully they don't cave to the mentally ill mob and goid on them for standing up so far to the SJWs.

I have to say; as much as it bothers me that SJG is getting flak over this at all, I am at this moment receiving a sick sort of satisfaction from watching TBP work itself into one of its trademark froths over this and devour any comment even remotely perpendicular to their bizarre, goosestepping brand of groupthink.

You'd practically think Steve himself had come over to their houses and assaulted them personally.

Oh well. I suppose that means more GURPS/TFT/DF fans can look forward to finding some fresh print material at the bookstore. That is, assuming anyone in that thread has actually purchased material from SJG, or would have otherwise; the number of comments that are quite literally "That's really unfortunate. Up to today I had a lot invested in SJG emotionally" are staggering already (and they also hit my funny bone pretty hard).

Quote from: Antiquation!;1083466I have to say; as much as it bothers me that SJG is getting flak over this at all, I am at this moment receiving a sick sort of satisfaction from watching TBP work itself into one of its trademark froths over this and devour any comment even remotely perpendicular to their bizarre, goosestepping brand of groupthink.

You'd practically think Steve himself had come over to their houses and assaulted them personally.

Oh well. I suppose that means more GURPS/TFT/DF fans can look forward to finding some fresh print material at the bookstore. That is, assuming anyone in that thread has actually purchased material from SJG, or would have otherwise; the number of comments that are quite literally "That's really unfortunate. Up to today I had a lot invested in SJG emotionally" are staggering already (and they also hit my funny bone pretty hard).

Given a long enough timeline, everyone will eventually get banned from TBP.

Quote from: Lurtch;1083203If SJ Games backs down because Phil Reed would rather be liked by the woke social media people he desperately wants to be friends with over his actual customers I'm done with that company.

And Phil, as a Gamer of Color, I don't want to see you bend the knee to these people that are not your customers!

I hope he doesn't cave in. I can remember Phil Reed when he was running Propaganda Publishing in Cape Girardeau, Missouri. He was a friend of one of my roommates who was pretty conservative at the time and they used to play Half Life in our living room. I remember I submitted an article for a supplement of The Shattered Sky RPG with a free copy of the book as payment but I can't recall if it was ever published.