So I recently ran a one-shot for my group with the Witcher RPG...
I'm a big Witcher fan (Books). I really, really, wanted to like this game.
But The Witcher RPG is as if someone set out to design an Interlock Fantasy RPG; but they had only ever played Interlock RPG's, and the Witcher video games. (It is clearly more closely modeled on the Video game than the books...)
There are some ideas I actually like. It's just that it seems that they chose to implement them in the most clunky way that they could think of. There is a game in there; it just has too much fiddly clutter to be ready for prime time.
Don't even get me started on the pagecount devoted to crafting in the game...
In my opinion; Keeping things more in-line with the crunch level of the Quickstart was the way they should have gone.
Cut the skill list in half, keep crits at just +10 over defense. And honestly, defenses could be made static, speeding up combat by a lot.
I also think that hit locations should only be rolled when you score a crit, with the locations SP affecting the potential crit. The 'armor stacking rules' from the main book could be used to work out a general SP for what you are wearing overall. Similar with the weapon damage rules - stuff that should only come into play on a crit or fumble.
The spells do need actual casting rolls to a TN though. For most of them you are just rolling to see if you hit a fumble, which I found a bit odd.
The Witcher RPG was a missed opportunity for R.Tal. They could have distilled Interlock into a tight fantasy system, that played fast at the table, and delivered a solid Witcher RPG fix. Instead you get a game that has all needless fiddly bits of previous R.Tal games brought forward to today.
R.Tal just has sloppy game design these days. Even CPRed has known system issues from the jump. Seth Skorkowsky did a good breakdown of it's issues on his youtube channel. (And he's a fan...)
It's just inexcusable. When you say that you have worked on a game for 3 years; Why must I still Un-Bork your system when it hits my table?
Sad really, as there is nothing inherently broken with the underlying the Stat+Skill+die roll system. It just seems that they just can't help themselves but to bork it up if given half a chance...
Both Witcher RPGs are commonly hated in Poland.
Cyberpunk 2020, Mekton, and Castle Falkestein were all products developed by Maximum Mike where as both Cyberpunk Red and The Witcher are products largely developed by his daughter in law, Lisa Pondsmith. On one hand, she steered R. Talsorian games away from the rocks and made the old games very available and on the other, she's a shit game designer. The only reason that The Witcher and Cyberpunk Red are playable at all is that Fuzion, designed by Mike, is a good core game system.
I don't take quite your negative view on it all though, I think the right collection of homebrew solutions could make this game a true top notch game experience. What Interlock Unlimited did for Cyberpunk 2020 could be done by a similar project for The Witcher. I agree that a game should be shipped ready to play rather than a beta level proof for the GM to tweak and fix. I'm doing reviews of games I own and I find a lot of attempts to make crunchy games are far worse. (Dark Stars, Altered Carbon, Katana-Ra, and Deal are all examples of flat out broken games sold as finished products.)
Mike himself is semi retired from all of it and really only comes out for PR reasons. (I think the failure of Cyberpunk 3.0 broke his will. The books were trash though and as I look at them I can't believe they were thought ready for print.)
Quote from: Jaeger on December 02, 2023, 06:49:17 PM
But The Witcher RPG is as if someone set out to design an Interlock Fantasy RPG; but they had only ever played Interlock RPG's, and the Witcher video games. (It is clearly more closely modeled on the Video game than the books...)
What a surprise, an RPG made by a company that has a business deal with the software house who made Cyberpunk 2077 and the Witcher series and whose in-house system is Interlock has made an Interlock game based on the Witcher videogames.
I'm really shocked.
Quote from: BadApple on December 03, 2023, 02:09:35 AM
Cyberpunk 2020, Mekton, and Castle Falkestein were all products developed by Maximum Mike where as both Cyberpunk Red and The Witcher are products largely developed by his daughter in law, Lisa Pondsmith. On one hand, she steered R. Talsorian games away from the rocks and made the old games very available and on the other, she's a shit game designer. The only reason that The Witcher and Cyberpunk Red are playable at all is that Fuzion, designed by Mike, is a good core game system.
Let me do a mild correction: Lisa Pondsmith is Maximum Mike's *wife*. She's been with the company since before it was an actual company. While she's never been a mainline designer, she's always been part of the design process. I can confirm personally. Mike's son, Cody, is the primary designer in this case... and yeah, I'm not impressed. The CDRed book had/has elements that are good. BUT... I can see where his instincts steered the mechanics away from the grittiness of the original (which really required very little changing outside of the mainline Netrunning sub-systems which were always shitty in implementation, cool in conception). All I can say is as someone that has run CP2020 for decades... I don't use CPRed *at all*. Nor do I use the Witcher, due to the odd design choices.
Quote from: BadApple on December 03, 2023, 02:09:35 AMI don't take quite your negative view on it all though, I think the right collection of homebrew solutions could make this game a true top notch game experience. What Interlock Unlimited did for Cyberpunk 2020 could be done by a similar project for The Witcher. I agree that a game should be shipped ready to play rather than a beta level proof for the GM to tweak and fix. I'm doing reviews of games I own and I find a lot of attempts to make crunchy games are far worse. (Dark Stars, Altered Carbon, Katana-Ra, and Deal are all examples of flat out broken games sold as finished products.)
Mike himself is semi retired from all of it and really only comes out for PR reasons. (I think the failure of Cyberpunk 3.0 broke his will. The books were trash though and as I look at them I can't believe they were thought ready for print.)
I generally agree with you here. I think it's all fixable. The tragedy is it shouldn't have required as much effort as it does to fix it. Ahh well.
Quote from: NotFromAroundHere on December 03, 2023, 04:27:12 AM
Quote from: Jaeger on December 02, 2023, 06:49:17 PM
But The Witcher RPG is as if someone set out to design an Interlock Fantasy RPG; but they had only ever played Interlock RPG's, and the Witcher video games. (It is clearly more closely modeled on the Video game than the books...)
What a surprise, an RPG made by a company that has a business deal with the software house who made Cyberpunk 2077 and the Witcher series and whose in-house system is Interlock has made an Interlock game based on the Witcher videogames.
I'm really shocked.
You really should not have been. Interlock is R.Tal's house system.
Quote from: BadApple on December 03, 2023, 02:09:35 AM
...
I don't take quite your negative view on it all though, I think the right collection of homebrew solutions could make this game a true top notch game experience. What Interlock Unlimited did for Cyberpunk 2020 could be done by a similar project for The Witcher. I agree that a game should be shipped ready to play rather than a beta level proof for the GM to tweak and fix...
My main gripe is that it shouldn't even be necessary. It's not like R.Tal doesn't have a vibrant fan community?
"Hey, doing an Interlock version of the Witcher, need solid dude's to help me playtest the shit out of it to make it the best Witcher RPG it can be..."
He would get plenty of replies. There's just no excuse. Cody said he worked on it for three years...
I've played tighter designed homebrew games in the past few years than what we got in the Witcher RPG.
Personally, I still think that going with the level of crunch in the Quickstart rules, with the corrections I suggested, would have been the way to go. It still would have been a solid mid-crunch game, played faster at the table, and we might have gotten something worthy of the Witcher IP.
Quote from: Wrath of God on December 02, 2023, 08:30:32 PM
Both Witcher RPGs are commonly hated in Poland.
Curious if you know: Last time I looked around, WHFRP 2e was really popular in Poland. Has that changed much?
Quote from: tenbones on December 04, 2023, 05:21:01 PM
... The CDRed book had/has elements that are good. BUT... I can see where his instincts steered the mechanics away from the grittiness of the original (which really required very little changing outside of the mainline Netrunning sub-systems which were always shitty in implementation, cool in conception). All I can say is as someone that has run CP2020 for decades... I don't use CPRed *at all*. Nor do I use the Witcher, due to the odd design choices.
Ran the CPRed quickstart as well for my group.
A lot of the same complaints that I have about the Witcher RPG. Granted, for the Witcher I have the main rulebook to compare the QS to. For CPRed I only have the CP2020 rules...
Afterwards I was still left scratching my head:
"How many years spent in development, and this is what you came up with as an improvement!?"
Quote from: Jaeger on December 04, 2023, 08:26:23 PM
You really should not have been. Interlock is R.Tal's house system.
No. Really ? I didn't know (looks sideways at his collection of Talsorian games dating back to the 90s).
tenbones, thanks for clarifying for me. I don't mean any disrespect to the Pondsmith family by getting the nature of their relationship wrong. I am embarrassed by that mistake.
Jaeger, I fully agree that a book should be ready to play as is. Sadly, this is rarely the case. I'm going through games to review and finding many of them are just not playable. This includes some really high end production level stuff that just fails. Altered Carbon was my biggest disappointment. In an attempt to protect their IPs, many games are released without a lot of the needed play testing and feedback.
Cyberpunk Red and The Witcher both use Fuzion as a core, not Interlock. It's a somewhat simpler version of Interlock and I was first aware of it with the introduction of Cyberpunk 3.0. I am a much bigger fan of Interlock than I am Fuzion by a long shot. My only complaint with Interlock is that crits and fumbles happen way too frequently.
I wish that R, Talsorian Games had published an SRD for Cyberpunk 2020/Interlock and released it under an open license. That would have give a few really awesome concepts a chance to flourish and I think it would have made R. Talsorian stronger as well. Ah well, we can all cry for the losses we suffer at the hands of those afraid to loose control of their IPs.
Quote from: NotFromAroundHere on December 05, 2023, 03:04:28 AM
Quote from: Jaeger on December 04, 2023, 08:26:23 PM
You really should not have been. Interlock is R.Tal's house system.
No. Really ? I didn't know (looks sideways at his collection of Talsorian games dating back to the 90s).
That does make being shocked that Interlock was used quite shocking, given that you should not have been shocked.
Quote from: BadApple on December 05, 2023, 03:56:57 AM
...
Jaeger, I fully agree that a book should be ready to play as is. Sadly, this is rarely the case. I'm going through games to review and finding many of them are just not playable. This includes some really high end production level stuff that just fails. Altered Carbon was my biggest disappointment. In an attempt to protect their IPs, many games are released without a lot of the needed play testing and feedback.
This is true. The average state of game design out there is actually quite poor. Which is rather inexplicable as you only need a few gaming groups playtesting to catch most issues.
Quote from: BadApple on December 05, 2023, 03:56:57 AM
Cyberpunk Red and The Witcher both use Fuzion as a core, not Interlock. It's a somewhat simpler version of Interlock and I was first aware of it with the introduction of Cyberpunk 3.0. I am a much bigger fan of Interlock than I am Fuzion by a long shot. My only complaint with Interlock is that crits and fumbles happen way too frequently.
This is truth. The Witcher and CPRed are swingy as fuck.
After playing the QS sessions I went back to the boxed sets to see if any ankle bracelets with pineapple motifs came with the set. If you think a d20 or d100 can be swingy, pffttt... they got nothing on Interlock/fuzion.
At any given time you are one good roll away from being one-shotted dead.
Granted, that can work in the players favor as well: The PC's in the Witcher game only survived because they got a great series of rolls that did a 180 on what was virtually a guaranteed TPK situation.
And in R.Tals defense; they do tell you straight-up that these are deadly games.
But there is good reason that I have seen at least one variant that used a d12 in place of the d10 to try and tame some of the madness.
Quote from: BadApple on December 05, 2023, 03:56:57 AM
I wish that R, Talsorian Games had published an SRD for Cyberpunk 2020/Interlock and released it under an open license. That would have give a few really awesome concepts a chance to flourish and I think it would have made R. Talsorian stronger as well. Ah well, we can all cry for the losses we suffer at the hands of those afraid to loose control of their IPs.
Given the current level of their design skills, they might have good reason not to...
A shame really, as I have been wanting to find a good skill based fantasy RPG that was
not d100 roll-under based.
Quote from: Jaeger on December 05, 2023, 06:04:02 PM
A shame really, as I have been wanting to find a good skill based fantasy RPG that was not d100 roll-under based.
You might want to give Sword of Cepheus a look. It's based on Traveller.
https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/304840/the-sword-of-cepheus
QuoteCurious if you know: Last time I looked around, WHFRP 2e was really popular in Poland. Has that changed much?
It's popularity is both blessing and curse, especially due to certain abberant ways to run WH invented in Poland (Autumn Tale).
But generally all three standard editions - 1, 2, 4 were very popular in Poland, and still are, though of course with expansion of market its dominance faltered.
Is it - even taken all 3 together most played system - I'm not sure honestly. It's between Warhammer, D&D-family and CoC.
I guess Cody was the main developer for The Witcher, and he's working on another title. I can't remember the name, but I've heard a lot of people saying it's gonna be a RIFTS clone. I have no idea what that is, but I genuinely hope Cody can tap into his father's talent and do something good. It be nice to see him be able to pick up the flag.
That being said, I gotta agree with tenbones too: after I bought the Cyberpunk RED book, I didn't feel the need to switch to it. 2020 has its issues, but it didn't feel like enough of a change to justify migrating to the new version. On top of that, the two sourcebooks they released seemed to have fallen pretty flat too.
Quote from: BadApple on December 05, 2023, 06:52:16 PM
You might want to give Sword of Cepheus a look. It's based on Traveller.
https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/304840/the-sword-of-cepheus
I actually have it. It doesn't quite hit the vibe I'm looking for - still very much high fantasy.
My disappointment with the Witcher is compounded by the fact that I really like some elements of the system.
Skill based, one polyhedral for action rolls, d6'd for everything else. It ticks a lot of boxes for me. To the point that in spite of my opinion of the game as is; I'm still internally debating if it would be worth my while to homebrew it into something worthy.
Quote from: Wrath of God on December 05, 2023, 08:12:32 PM
QuoteCurious if you know: Last time I looked around, WHFRP 2e was really popular in Poland. Has that changed much?
It's popularity is both blessing and curse, especially due to certain abberant ways to run WH invented in Poland (Autumn Tale).
But generally all three standard editions - 1, 2, 4 were very popular in Poland, and still are, though of course with expansion of market its dominance faltered.
Is it - even taken all 3 together most played system - I'm not sure honestly. It's between Warhammer, D&D-family and CoC.
Holy crap. I was able to find a guy reading through some of those articles (talking about them in english) on TBP. There is some "interesting" stuff there to say the least...
Nobody ever did a proper Polish language retro-Clone of WHFRP 2e over there? It seems that is an untapped market if properly supported...
Quote from: 1stLevelWizard on December 06, 2023, 10:12:22 AM
...
That being said, I gotta agree with tenbones too: after I bought the Cyberpunk RED book, I didn't feel the need to switch to it. 2020 has its issues, but it didn't feel like enough of a change to justify migrating to the new version. On top of that, the two sourcebooks they released seemed to have fallen pretty flat too.
It's a shame as R.Tal has a great back catalogue to re-vamp for a proper new edition.
I dunno - I just can't help but think that with CPRed, and the Witcher, that there was a lot of opportunity left on the table.
QuoteIt's a shame as R.Tal has a great back catalogue to re-vamp for a proper new edition.
I dunno - I just can't help but think that with CPRed, and the Witcher, that there was a lot of opportunity left on the table.
There was a bit of mixed messaging too. When I got my copy of Cyberpunk 2077 for Christmas, I found out there was a bunch of free stuff with it. One of those freebies was a PDF copy of the 2020 rules labeled, "Cyberpunk 2020 Guidebook." I don't know why R. Talsorian didn't coordinate with CPRed to put in a slimmed down copy of the RED rules like you'd find in the starter set.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's great R. Talsorian supports their older systems. But if someone just played 2077 they're likely gonna be more interested in the RED setting of 2045. That would've been the perfect opportunity to give 2077 players a way to look into the tabletop game.
Quote from: Jaeger on December 07, 2023, 03:29:16 PM
Quote from: BadApple on December 05, 2023, 06:52:16 PM
You might want to give Sword of Cepheus a look. It's based on Traveller.
https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/304840/the-sword-of-cepheus
I actually have it. It doesn't quite hit the vibe I'm looking for - still very much high fantasy.
My disappointment with the Witcher is compounded by the fact that I really like some elements of the system.
Skill based, one polyhedral for action rolls, d6'd for everything else. It ticks a lot of boxes for me. To the point that in spite of my opinion of the game as is; I'm still internally debating if it would be worth my while to homebrew it into something worthy.
I understand your frustrations. I have been doing a lot of home brew for my own fantasy game to the point were it isn't recognizable as any product. I use Cepheus Engine as a core and I use my own magic system and setting. I also borrowed from several other games for mechanics and set pieces.
Here's one more Cepheus Engine product to look at, 1520:HRE. It's a late medieval historical RPG but it is very easy to bolt on fantasy elements to taste. It would make a really good setting for a Witcher type campaign. I did a review a few months back: https://www.therpgsite.com/reviews/1520hre-2d6-adventure-in-the-holy-roman-empire/
I'm really not trying to sell you a game, I just thought I'd give you some options based on your statements.
Quote from: 1stLevelWizard on December 07, 2023, 05:13:06 PM
...
There was a bit of mixed messaging too. When I got my copy of Cyberpunk 2077 for Christmas, I found out there was a bunch of free stuff with it. One of those freebies was a PDF copy of the 2020 rules labeled, "Cyberpunk 2020 Guidebook." I don't know why R. Talsorian didn't coordinate with CPRed to put in a slimmed down copy of the RED rules like you'd find in the starter set.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's great R. Talsorian supports their older systems. But if someone just played 2077 they're likely gonna be more interested in the RED setting of 2045. That would've been the perfect opportunity to give 2077 players a way to look into the tabletop game.
Why the CPRed setting is 2045 and not the same as the 2077 video game that far more people would be familiar with is utterly inexplicable to me.
And on top of that there are enough little rules differences that the Witcher and CPRed are not really cross compatible...
I mean, come on man! How could you miss that?
The "Why the Red" question was directly answered back in the concept stage. They didn't want to spoil any of the surprise aspects of CP2077 with CPR. In theory there's supposed to be a sourcebook or new edition covering 2077 at some later date (probably when CDPR is done with the setting).
So the trend I've seen as a long-time fan of RTG's stuff has been that during the initial hiatus that Pondsmith took from game development, where he went and worked for Microsoft doing the writing and story development for Crimson Skies was that he took a feeling away that RPGs could be more popular if they incorporated some of the design elements of video games into them. Specifically, he called out modularity, limited exposure of choices during initial character creation, and a unification of system chunks that limited the minigames of a system where possible.
He came back from that job and immediately put together CP 3.0, which we all know was a horrible flop, for reasons beyond the most inexplicable design choices (green text! GI Joes!) like the bodgered fuzion system that it was using and the clannishness of the class system that required extensive squinting to bring group of diverse characters together. It just didn't work. From here I conjecture that he got frustrated and backed off cyberpunk for a while.
Cue CDPR working on their "next thing" after the Witcher, an offer to Pondsmith for the license to make a game based on his RPG, and a relationship that probably started with "Yeah, you can use my setting, but I still get reciprocal rights to make the games for it" and "Oh, also, we could do a lot of the game development based on your existing IP, and pull some people in that way."
As for the differences between the Witcher TTRPG and CP Red, Mike was specifically forbidden (according to Lisa) from getting involved in the process there, because in her words "He's a horrible power gamer", the Witcher was entirely Lisa and Cody's project, while he stayed involved (as a member of the team) with the development for CPR.
All that aside, I've run both, and IMO CPR is the more useful of the two, although I HATE HATE HATE the overgeneralization of things in it. As someone who can still quote table blocks from Blackhand's Street Weapons at need, I liked having those little additional bits of customization where you could feel the sort of preferences that exist in the real life gun community (while they ducked the 9mm vs .45ACP argument, they left it in in the 10mm vs 11mm.. 2d6+3 vs 3d6 makes for discussions like "Well, it might not have the max trauma (stopping power), but the 10mm is just more reliable for penetration purposes...). I liked the adjustment to how improvement points worked, but I did feel like there was a bit too much videogameness to some of the special abilities, like the Cop just being able to effectively summon a patrol car. Like how do you resolve that as a GM in an Edgerun? Do you tell the player they had better not use it, or just let them and give them the real consequences of calling in the cops. <shrug>
As for the Witcher, I really quickly stopped liking the crit system. It made everything REALLY deadly for the players, and took too long to resolve for all the NPCs. So I pretty much ditched the "hit by this much and it's a crit" aspect and left it at "roll a 10." I also didn't like the damage numbers much, and I wish there was more of a gradual increase in damage; when you look at two weapons only a couple tiers apart with a difference of +3d6 it seems excessive. A lot of the roles also felt pretty superfluous, and there was something missing even from the Man At Arms by comparison to the Witcher. (Yes, I get that they're SUPPOSED to be the point of the setting, but I always feel like others should be able to play without saying "I suck because I'm not a ..." be it Witcher, Solo, Jedi, whatever).
More generally, for both systems I didn't like the inclusion of hit points rather than the damage tracker. I always prefer to count UP the damage someone has taken rather than down, and I like the variable idea of saving to avoid being stunned or dying.
In a short while you'll be able to get Baptism of Fire, which is an OSR game and inspired by the same historical/mythological sources as The Witcher, I believe.
QuoteIn a short while you'll be able to get Baptism of Fire, which is an OSR game and inspired by the same historical/mythological sources as The Witcher, I believe.
No like not even close.
Witcher world is postmodern fantasy with kinda D&D like races, set in world of late medieval/reneissance, with many asynchronic elements (because this medieval is in fact post-apocalyptic humanity that jumped to other dimension thank you very mach). In terms of sources and inspirations - while there are some elements of Slavic folklor like striga as quite iconic villain, Sapkowski scoffs of idea of Slavic fantasy, because of lack of proper mythology and legendarium compared to Western Europe, and general gist of his world is Germano-Celtic with Arthurian undertones. It's also very Polish in certain sense - but it's 90's Poland not medieval Poland, not even mentioning times of Piast's baptism.
I have great disdain for DIVERSE casting of Netflix adaptation (especially since it was diverse in most handwaveing way) but all defenders of books making claims about it being based on medieval Poland and Slavic mythology were just full of bullshit.
Quote from: Wrath of God on December 16, 2023, 09:05:29 PM
QuoteIn a short while you'll be able to get Baptism of Fire, which is an OSR game and inspired by the same historical/mythological sources as The Witcher, I believe.
No like not even close.
Witcher world is postmodern fantasy with kinda D&D like races, set in world of late medieval/reneissance, with many asynchronic elements (because this medieval is in fact post-apocalyptic humanity that jumped to other dimension thank you very mach). In terms of sources and inspirations - while there are some elements of Slavic folklor like striga as quite iconic villain, Sapkowski scoffs of idea of Slavic fantasy, because of lack of proper mythology and legendarium compared to Western Europe, and general gist of his world is Germano-Celtic with Arthurian undertones. It's also very Polish in certain sense - but it's 90's Poland not medieval Poland, not even mentioning times of Piast's baptism.
I have great disdain for DIVERSE casting of Netflix adaptation (especially since it was diverse in most handwaveing way) but all defenders of books making claims about it being based on medieval Poland and Slavic mythology were just full of bullshit.
I feel like the Slavic stuff may actually be heavier in the videogame(s) especially around the Velen area (named for an old Slavic god iirc) in the 3rd one.
I mean in 1st game there were whole chapter mixing Adam Mickiewicz - famous Polish romantic poet lore with kinda Cthulhu lore.
Needless to say without any basic in books, and nevertheless still quite far from BoF period.
There is Slavic god - Veles - equivalent to Vedic Varuna, but I'm not sure if Velen name is based on him. Wiki implies it's named after elven holiday - and those as all Elven languages in Witcher are Celtic.
Quote from: Wrath of God on December 16, 2023, 09:05:29 PM
QuoteIn a short while you'll be able to get Baptism of Fire, which is an OSR game and inspired by the same historical/mythological sources as The Witcher, I believe.
No like not even close.
Witcher world is postmodern fantasy with kinda D&D like races, set in world of late medieval/reneissance, with many asynchronic elements (because this medieval is in fact post-apocalyptic humanity that jumped to other dimension thank you very mach). In terms of sources and inspirations - while there are some elements of Slavic folklor like striga as quite iconic villain, Sapkowski scoffs of idea of Slavic fantasy, because of lack of proper mythology and legendarium compared to Western Europe, and general gist of his world is Germano-Celtic with Arthurian undertones. It's also very Polish in certain sense - but it's 90's Poland not medieval Poland, not even mentioning times of Piast's baptism.
I have great disdain for DIVERSE casting of Netflix adaptation (especially since it was diverse in most handwaveing way) but all defenders of books making claims about it being based on medieval Poland and Slavic mythology were just full of bullshit.
Huh. Well, having not read the books, I didn't realize that.
So, what you're saying is that we shouldn't...
Quote from: Wrath of God on December 16, 2023, 09:05:29 PM
QuoteIn a short while you'll be able to get Baptism of Fire, which is an OSR game and inspired by the same historical/mythological sources as The Witcher, I believe.
No like not even close.
Witcher world is postmodern fantasy with kinda D&D like races, set in world of late medieval/reneissance, with many asynchronic elements (because this medieval is in fact post-apocalyptic humanity that jumped to other dimension thank you very mach). In terms of sources and inspirations - while there are some elements of Slavic folklor like striga as quite iconic villain, Sapkowski scoffs of idea of Slavic fantasy, because of lack of proper mythology and legendarium compared to Western Europe, and general gist of his world is Germano-Celtic with Arthurian undertones. It's also very Polish in certain sense - but it's 90's Poland not medieval Poland, not even mentioning times of Piast's baptism.
I have great disdain for DIVERSE casting of Netflix adaptation (especially since it was diverse in most handwaveing way) but all defenders of books making claims about it being based on medieval Poland and Slavic mythology were just full of bullshit.
That's not even bringing in the controversy about how much of the Witcher is cribbed (some would say plagiarized) from Michael Moorcock.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkiP64adGjY
Not to mention the elements that look suspiciously like they were pinched from Dungeons and Dragons:
(https://i.postimg.cc/668N815B/Genie-Capture.jpg)
The D&D influence is most obvious in the book of short stories set in the Witcher universe.
But I've always gotten the vibe that it's the authors D&D game with some homebrewed stuff, rather than being based on authentic Polish/Slavic mythology
Well, then get the Real Thing with the upcoming Baptism of Fire instead! It has a Witch Hunter class, regardless!
QuoteThat's not even bringing in the controversy about how much of the Witcher is cribbed (some would say plagiarized) from Michael Moorcock.
While Sapkowski generally is using Western canon of fantasy a lot in his books, I generally consider claims that Geralt is Elric clone to be utterly bullshit.
Not to mention utter lack of essential Moorcockian aspects like Order vs Chaos.
QuoteNot to mention the elements that look suspiciously like they were pinched from Dungeons and Dragons:
See that's because they are pinched from D&D, that's not real secret or controversy. :P
You also have dwarves, gnomes, halflings taken from D&D (though not half-orcs).
QuoteWell, then get the Real Thing with the upcoming Baptism of Fire instead! It has a Witch Hunter class, regardless!
That's kinda weird setting-wise.
Historically I'd say in this regions something reminding Witch-Hunter would appear like at best in late medieval period.
Of course there would be tension between pagans and Christians, but not like specific Christian units to hunt witches - in fact generally in Slavic territories witches were slowly christianised - to this day you have residuum of it among Szeptuchas (whispering women) popular among Belarussian and Ruthenian minorities in Poland.
To deal with evil witch in Medieval Slavic setting you would either send benevolent witch or volchv or priest if pagan, or well cleric with some retinue of warriors if Christian.
Quote from: Wrath of God on January 14, 2024, 09:50:48 AM
QuoteThat's not even bringing in the controversy about how much of the Witcher is cribbed (some would say plagiarized) from Michael Moorcock.
While Sapkowski generally is using Western canon of fantasy a lot in his books, I generally consider claims that Geralt is Elric clone to be utterly bullshit.
Not to mention utter lack of essential Moorcockian aspects like Order vs Chaos.
The Order vs. Chaos dichotomy does pop up several times in both the books and games, including several conversations about it. it's just more of a background element than a central narrative conflict. Nevertheless, I generally agree with you. I think it's fair to say that Geralt's aesthetics seem to have been inspired by Elric, but as soon as you read the books it's clear that their personalities, goals and narrative arcs are quite different (except that they both die at the end.)
My stance on this kind of "plagiarism" is that it's all about what you do with it. Warhammer is the go-to example. Both Warhammer Fantasy and 40k have tons of elements that are very obviously pulled from other fiction: The Tyranids from Geiger's aliens; the fantasy dark elves from Melnibone, the 40k dark elves from Hellraiser, the high elves and dwarfs from D&D, elements of the Imperium from Dune, the list goes on and on. I suspect that Gotrek and Felix were a conscious effort to give Warhammer it's own Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Ciaphus Cain was inspired by Harry Flashman. And that's not even touching on the historical influences. The thing is that when you take all those influences, blend them together, and then build 30 years of your own lore on top of that, I don't really think the plagiarism accusation is viable anymore. At some point you have to recognize it's become its own thing.
The Witcher setting is kind of the same. It's a hodge-podge of recognizable elements from literature and history, but it's got enough of its own flavor that I'm not too bothered about it. I've got my issues with the Witcher novels, but they're less about plagiarism than they are about pacing.
Quote from: Wrath of God on January 14, 2024, 09:50:48 AM
QuoteThat's not even bringing in the controversy about how much of the Witcher is cribbed (some would say plagiarized) from Michael Moorcock.
While Sapkowski generally is using Western canon of fantasy a lot in his books, I generally consider claims that Geralt is Elric clone to be utterly bullshit.
Not to mention utter lack of essential Moorcockian aspects like Order vs Chaos.
QuoteNot to mention the elements that look suspiciously like they were pinched from Dungeons and Dragons:
See that's because they are pinched from D&D, that's not real secret or controversy. :P
You also have dwarves, gnomes, halflings taken from D&D (though not half-orcs).
QuoteWell, then get the Real Thing with the upcoming Baptism of Fire instead! It has a Witch Hunter class, regardless!
That's kinda weird setting-wise.
Historically I'd say in this regions something reminding Witch-Hunter would appear like at best in late medieval period.
Of course there would be tension between pagans and Christians, but not like specific Christian units to hunt witches - in fact generally in Slavic territories witches were slowly christianised - to this day you have residuum of it among Szeptuchas (whispering women) popular among Belarussian and Ruthenian minorities in Poland.
To deal with evil witch in Medieval Slavic setting you would either send benevolent witch or volchv or priest if pagan, or well cleric with some retinue of warriors if Christian.
The witch-hunter is a class to reflect the cunning (as in intellect but also in the 'magic' sense) Christians who would investigate and fight dangerous cults, evil witches and monsters wherever they might be found (and in early Piast Poland all of the above were found almost everywhere). It is in fact a Christianized version of the Wolchw/Kresnik.
R. Talsorian has great products when it comes to fluff and dripping with ideas and style... But every single one of their systems I've found to be, lacking for a better word.
The Cyberpunk system, even in it's current iteration of "RED" is a hot mess. It boggles me that Kevin Crawford put out one of the most functional Cyberpunk Systems ever created in a single book, based on fucking OSR rules no less (Cities without Number) that neither Shadowrun or Cyberpunk can match.
It doesn't surprise me the Witcher system isn't up to snuff either. Here I'd heard there were some interesting mechanical parts of it too.
Quote from: Orphan81 on January 22, 2024, 01:27:31 AMThe Cyberpunk system, even in it's current iteration of "RED" is a hot mess. It boggles me that Kevin Crawford put out one of the most functional Cyberpunk Systems ever created in a single book, based on fucking OSR rules no less (Cities without Number) that neither Shadowrun or Cyberpunk can match.
Functional, and thematic/flavorful are two very different things though. It's cool that you enjoy an OSR based Cyberpunk game, but that's like trying to play 9 holes of golf with a cricket bat. Can you do it? Sure. Does it give you a good game of golf? No.
I know there are people that use some iteration of D&D for everything they run, but then some people eat the same meal every day too. Give me games with thematic rules, built to simulate the setting, and I'll tweak them into functionality.
Quote from: Grognard GM on January 22, 2024, 11:01:58 AM
Quote from: Orphan81 on January 22, 2024, 01:27:31 AMThe Cyberpunk system, even in it's current iteration of "RED" is a hot mess. It boggles me that Kevin Crawford put out one of the most functional Cyberpunk Systems ever created in a single book, based on fucking OSR rules no less (Cities without Number) that neither Shadowrun or Cyberpunk can match.
Functional, and thematic/flavorful are two very different things though. It's cool that you enjoy an OSR based Cyberpunk game, but that's like trying to play 9 holes of golf with a cricket bat. Can you do it? Sure. Does it give you a good game of golf? No.
I know there are people that use some iteration of D&D for everything they run, but then some people eat the same meal every day too. Give me games with thematic rules, built to simulate the setting, and I'll tweak them into functionality.
I've played every iteration of Shadowrun and Cyberpunk. I was the lead designer on Savage World's "Interface Zero 2.0".
I don't believe the OSR is the best at everything by a long shot.
When I say Kevin Crawford's "Cities without Number" is the most functional, playable, and fun Cyberpunk RPG system, I'm not fucking talking bullshit.
There's literally a free version that just leaves out the Chapter that tells you how to do Shadowrun.
Check it out for yourself.
https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/449873/cities-without-number-free-version
Quote from: Orphan81 on January 22, 2024, 03:09:51 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on January 22, 2024, 11:01:58 AM
Quote from: Orphan81 on January 22, 2024, 01:27:31 AMThe Cyberpunk system, even in it's current iteration of "RED" is a hot mess. It boggles me that Kevin Crawford put out one of the most functional Cyberpunk Systems ever created in a single book, based on fucking OSR rules no less (Cities without Number) that neither Shadowrun or Cyberpunk can match.
Functional, and thematic/flavorful are two very different things though. It's cool that you enjoy an OSR based Cyberpunk game, but that's like trying to play 9 holes of golf with a cricket bat. Can you do it? Sure. Does it give you a good game of golf? No.
I know there are people that use some iteration of D&D for everything they run, but then some people eat the same meal every day too. Give me games with thematic rules, built to simulate the setting, and I'll tweak them into functionality.
I've played every iteration of Shadowrun and Cyberpunk. I was the lead designer on Savage World's "Interface Zero 2.0".
I don't believe the OSR is the best at everything by a long shot.
When I say Kevin Crawford's "Cities without Number" is the most functional, playable, and fun Cyberpunk RPG system, I'm not fucking talking bullshit.
There's literally a free version that just leaves out the Chapter that tells you how to do Shadowrun.
Check it out for yourself.
https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/449873/cities-without-number-free-version
Neon Blood and Zaibatsu are much better than Cities without Numbers.
That said, I don't dislike Crawford's foray into the genre. I've been reading and play testing many of the available cyberpunk games out there and his is one of the better ones out there. He also gave away the book for free and the only parts paywalled in the deluxe version aren't really going to be missed by most players and GMs.
Quote from: BadApple on January 22, 2024, 03:40:44 PM
Neon Blood and Zaibatsu are much better than Cities without Numbers.
That said, I don't dislike Crawford's foray into the genre. I've been reading and play testing many of the available cyberpunk games out there and his is one of the better ones out there. He also gave away the book for free and the only parts paywalled in the deluxe version aren't really going to be missed by most players and GMs.
That depends on what you want to go for. My favorite Cyberpunk games are teams of Mercenaries taking on various jobs in the setting. I think Crawford's take on that style of play... I.E... being "Edge Runners" or "Shadow Runners" is better than any other I've seen. The math is tight, there are no classes, (Or technically everyone is the new class "Operator" if you want to export it to the other settings Crawford's made) but there's still plenty of customization and chrome variety as you earn cash and level up.
It's dangerous at low level, but characters become much more competent "Street legends" as they get to higher levels.
It rewards tactical thinking and punishes going in guns blazing.
Why do you see Neon Blood and Zaibatsu as being better?
Quote from: Orphan81 on January 22, 2024, 03:51:50 PM
Quote from: BadApple on January 22, 2024, 03:40:44 PM
Neon Blood and Zaibatsu are much better than Cities without Numbers.
That said, I don't dislike Crawford's foray into the genre. I've been reading and play testing many of the available cyberpunk games out there and his is one of the better ones out there. He also gave away the book for free and the only parts paywalled in the deluxe version aren't really going to be missed by most players and GMs.
That depends on what you want to go for. My favorite Cyberpunk games are teams of Mercenaries taking on various jobs in the setting. I think Crawford's take on that style of play... I.E... being "Edge Runners" or "Shadow Runners" is better than any other I've seen. The math is tight, there are no classes, (Or technically everyone is the new class "Operator" if you want to export it to the other settings Crawford's made) but there's still plenty of customization and chrome variety as you earn cash and level up.
It's dangerous at low level, but characters become much more competent "Street legends" as they get to higher levels.
It rewards tactical thinking and punishes going in guns blazing.
Why do you see Neon Blood and Zaibatsu as being better?
Here's my reviews: https://www.therpgsite.com/reviews/badapple-reviews-cyberpunk-games/
With Neon Blood, it's a tight and well built game using the d20. Most everything you said about CWN applies but it's just smoother and quicker with my play test team. It's also got some really good material for it in the form of adventure modules and expansions that fit into the game like a glove. It's obvious to me the team loves it and is working with it to push it forward.
Zaibatsu is based on Traveller. The Traveller 2d6 skills system has been around almost as long as D&D have been and for good reason. I've been running cyberpunk games with Traveller for years so I know it's a near perfect system for the genre. Zozer games takes that and tweaks it to fit the genre even better. Admittedly, Zaibatsu is quite a bit more focused as it's written than CWN or other cyberpunk games but it takes almost no imagination to take the system and use it for your own interpretation on a team of operators or edge runners. It also has some low key but well done tweaks to the old cyberpunk tropes that I think are awesome. Finally, you can use a lot of the material for other Traveller games (including Zozer's own Hostile, this was intentional) in Zaibatsu with little to no conversion.
In both cases, PC development is a more gradual slope that the leveling system that Crawford uses. I think this is the right way to do Cyberpunk. Crawford's view of cyberpunk seems stuck in 1992 and the genre has since grown. I think these two games do a lot to bring the past with them into the current world of cyberpunk stories.
Quote from: BadApple on January 22, 2024, 04:20:05 PM
Crawford's view of cyberpunk seems stuck in 1992 and the genre has since grown. I think these two games do a lot to bring the past with them into the current world of cyberpunk stories.
This is something I've come to more and more prefer when it comes to Cyberpunk. In my own opinion, I'm starting to prefer the Cyberpunk tabletop's setting of "Alternate History Future" to the attempts at trying to make Cyberpunk stories relevant when we basically live in the modern day Cyberpunk Apocalypse.
Because all of the modern day Cyberpunk stories are really just Transhumanism stories and are more along the lines of "Altered Carbon" than "Neuromancer"... and for my money, Neuromancer and SnowCrash are just more fun settings to play in than Altered Carbon.
As for Traveler rules for Cyberpunk, I already prefer "Stars without Number" to Traveler's own rules, and as it is... Kevin's skill system runs on 2d6 roll and not a D20 roll anyway... so I look at it as sort of the best of both worlds.
These days I'm starting to think it really comes down to *what* kind of Cyberpunk game you want to play. If you want something like Cyberpunk 2077 or Shadowrun, I'd go with Cities without Number.... If you want something more akin to the setting presented in Cyberpunk 2020 than hell... Vampire the Masquerade with some reskinning is better for that.
Quote from: Orphan81 on January 22, 2024, 04:53:27 PM
Quote from: BadApple on January 22, 2024, 04:20:05 PM
Crawford's view of cyberpunk seems stuck in 1992 and the genre has since grown. I think these two games do a lot to bring the past with them into the current world of cyberpunk stories.
This is something I've come to more and more prefer when it comes to Cyberpunk. In my own opinion, I'm starting to prefer the Cyberpunk tabletop's setting of "Alternate History Future" to the attempts at trying to make Cyberpunk stories relevant when we basically live in the modern day Cyberpunk Apocalypse.
Because all of the modern day Cyberpunk stories are really just Transhumanism stories and are more along the lines of "Altered Carbon" than "Neuromancer"... and for my money, Neuromancer and SnowCrash are just more fun settings to play in than Altered Carbon.
As for Traveler rules for Cyberpunk, I already prefer "Stars without Number" to Traveler's own rules, and as it is... Kevin's skill system runs on 2d6 roll and not a D20 roll anyway... so I look at it as sort of the best of both worlds.
These days I'm starting to think it really comes down to *what* kind of Cyberpunk game you want to play. If you want something like Cyberpunk 2077 or Shadowrun, I'd go with Cities without Number.... If you want something more akin to the setting presented in Cyberpunk 2020 than hell... Vampire the Masquerade with some reskinning is better for that.
First, transhumanisim has always been a part of cyberpunk. Neuromancer featured transhumanisim heavily in a couple of different ways. It actually did deep examination of the idea better that Altered Carbon did. A lot of people either gloss over or forget that as well as the fact the book ends with interstellar communications between AI from different planets. (Aliens are a thing in The Sprawl series.)
Second, more of the modern cyberpunk steps away from the "darkest night" dystopia and leans more into how various forms of communication changes society and how not even the best societies are the best for all of it's members. Sure, Altered Carbon was heavy into transhumanism and the show brought it to the fore but it's not the only newer cyberpunk fiction out there. IMO, The Expanse is a much better representation of modern cyberpunk than Altered Carbon and it wasn't heavily into transhumanism at all.
If all you want is a retro "guns and robot arms against corpos" then CWN is a good game. Honestly, that's way more shallow than I want. Even then, CWN is cyberepunk as it was even before SnowCrash. Crawford is a good games designer and the mechanics of his game are very good. However, he's taking some mechanics designed for one style of play and trying to fit them into a genre that really doesn't fit. (if a PC can shrug off small arms fire in street clothes just because he's a high level then there is a problem) Also, it's like he gets the tropes and the looks without understanding the underlying conflict, the deeper meaning of the genre. On top of which, he's chosen to adapt a very small sliver of the cyberpunk genre when there was so much out there in both depth and variety, even if you were to push the pause button at 1992. It's like he got his whole understanding about cyberpunk by googling it, reading a couple of blog posts, and looking at pictures. It doesn't even have the depth of Neuromancer and Cyberpunk 2020.
If you want a real understanding for the cyberpunk genre stripped of all it's superficial tropes, read Saturn Apartments.
Quote from: BadApple on January 23, 2024, 07:54:40 AM
Quote from: Orphan81 on January 22, 2024, 04:53:27 PM
Quote from: BadApple on January 22, 2024, 04:20:05 PM
Crawford's view of cyberpunk seems stuck in 1992 and the genre has since grown. I think these two games do a lot to bring the past with them into the current world of cyberpunk stories.
This is something I've come to more and more prefer when it comes to Cyberpunk. In my own opinion, I'm starting to prefer the Cyberpunk tabletop's setting of "Alternate History Future" to the attempts at trying to make Cyberpunk stories relevant when we basically live in the modern day Cyberpunk Apocalypse.
Because all of the modern day Cyberpunk stories are really just Transhumanism stories and are more along the lines of "Altered Carbon" than "Neuromancer"... and for my money, Neuromancer and SnowCrash are just more fun settings to play in than Altered Carbon.
As for Traveler rules for Cyberpunk, I already prefer "Stars without Number" to Traveler's own rules, and as it is... Kevin's skill system runs on 2d6 roll and not a D20 roll anyway... so I look at it as sort of the best of both worlds.
These days I'm starting to think it really comes down to *what* kind of Cyberpunk game you want to play. If you want something like Cyberpunk 2077 or Shadowrun, I'd go with Cities without Number.... If you want something more akin to the setting presented in Cyberpunk 2020 than hell... Vampire the Masquerade with some reskinning is better for that.
First, transhumanisim has always been a part of cyberpunk. Neuromancer featured transhumanisim heavily in a couple of different ways. It actually did deep examination of the idea better that Altered Carbon did. A lot of people either gloss over or forget that as well as the fact the book ends with interstellar communications between AI from different planets. (Aliens are a thing in The Sprawl series.)
Second, more of the modern cyberpunk steps away from the "darkest night" dystopia and leans more into how various forms of communication changes society and how not even the best societies are the best for all of it's members. Sure, Altered Carbon was heavy into transhumanism and the show brought it to the fore but it's not the only newer cyberpunk fiction out there. IMO, The Expanse is a much better representation of modern cyberpunk than Altered Carbon and it wasn't heavily into transhumanism at all.
If all you want is a retro "guns and robot arms against corpos" then CWN is a good game. Honestly, that's way more shallow than I want. Even then, CWN is cyberepunk as it was even before SnowCrash. Crawford is a good games designer and the mechanics of his game are very good. However, he's taking some mechanics designed for one style of play and trying to fit them into a genre that really doesn't fit. (if a PC can shrug off small arms fire in street clothes just because he's a high level then there is a problem) Also, it's like he gets the tropes and the looks without understanding the underlying conflict, the deeper meaning of the genre. On top of which, he's chosen to adapt a very small sliver of the cyberpunk genre when there was so much out there in both depth and variety, even if you were to push the pause button at 1992. It's like he got his whole understanding about cyberpunk by googling it, reading a couple of blog posts, and looking at pictures. It doesn't even have the depth of Neuromancer and Cyberpunk 2020.
If you want a real understanding for the cyberpunk genre stripped of all it's superficial tropes, read Saturn Apartments.
Yes but Classic Cyberpunk has always been a REJECTION of Transhumanism and that's one of the things I love about it and I dislike about the direction of things like Altered Carborn and games like Eclipse Phase.
The analogy I've heard goes something like this... a Transhumanist points to their new phone and all the wonderful things it can do for you and how it's improved your life... The Cyberpunk points out how you're still in the same place you've always been and how the Phone has actually made your life worse.
I don't view The Expanse as being "Cyberpunk" either, but rather as well.... Hard Science Fiction. It's a little difficult for me to see where the Cyberpunk elements of massive Corporations controlling everyone's lives and the trading away our very humanity with Technology fits into a setting that's mainly about Politics.
Don't get me wrong, I *LOVE* the Expanse.. but it's mainly a story of nation states in space and the people caught up with their machinations. If we start stretching what "Cyberpunk" is to include The Expanse and say "Oh that's totally cyberpunk" rather than a Hard Scifi story that has some elements of Cyberpunk... than the definition of "Cyberpunk" begins to become meaingless.
Suddenly any Science Fiction story about people struggling in the wake of massive entities becomes Cyberpunk.
And I just disagree with that.
Quote from: Orphan81 on January 23, 2024, 12:17:49 PM
Yes but Classic Cyberpunk has always been a REJECTION of Transhumanism and that's one of the things I love about it and I dislike about the direction of things like Altered Carborn and games like Eclipse Phase.
The analogy I've heard goes something like this... a Transhumanist points to their new phone and all the wonderful things it can do for you and how it's improved your life... The Cyberpunk points out how you're still in the same place you've always been and how the Phone has actually made your life worse.
I don't view The Expanse as being "Cyberpunk" either, but rather as well.... Hard Science Fiction. It's a little difficult for me to see where the Cyberpunk elements of massive Corporations controlling everyone's lives and the trading away our very humanity with Technology fits into a setting that's mainly about Politics.
Don't get me wrong, I *LOVE* the Expanse.. but it's mainly a story of nation states in space and the people caught up with their machinations. If we start stretching what "Cyberpunk" is to include The Expanse and say "Oh that's totally cyberpunk" rather than a Hard Scifi story that has some elements of Cyberpunk... than the definition of "Cyberpunk" begins to become meaingless.
Suddenly any Science Fiction story about people struggling in the wake of massive entities becomes Cyberpunk.
And I just disagree with that.
I agree that cyberpunk is a about the rejection, or at least the critical examination, of the computerization of information and communication. Transhumanism is clearly a piece of this. It could be from the exterior, as in Neuromancer, or from the interior, like Altered Carbon. (I also agree that Altered Carbon could stand to be more direct in it's critical examination of transhumanism.)
Cyberpunk is a storytelling genre that is of the nexus of two things:
1. The critical examination of the computerization of information and communication, ie
cyber2. Characters that feel disenfranchised by society and adopt a lifestyle that is incompatible with mainstream culture, ie
punk Anything else is just dressing. Cyberpunk can and does blend well with other scifi so it could be a cyberpunk/space opera or a cyberpunk/hard scifi.
Mega corporations need not be an element. In fact, many great cyberpunk works don't feature corporations at all. Brazil is an excellent example of this. I would argue that corrupt or just incompetent governments are more frequently used.
Heavy handed dystopias don't have to be a main feature either. (One of my favorite cyberpunk stories was about a guy in a utopian future that was a cyberpunk out of irrational paranoia.) I had previously suggested that the Star Trek universe might make for some excellent cyberpunk storytelling and game play.
There need not be any form of "hero quest" either. I would argue that form of storytelling is of some other genre. The "punks" in Bladerunner were the androids and were the antagonists though made intentionally easy to empathize with. The "punks" in Neuromancer were criminals out for a big score, not to fix society.
The Expanse featured "punks" in the form of the crew of the Rossi and communication and the control of information featured as a key element of the stories. That said, it is a blended genre story with strong elements of hard scifi and grounded space opera. (You could also throw in international political thriller as well.)
Circling back to where we started, I think CWN is a good game and I'm glad you and your table found something you're really enjoying. My opinion holds as to where it stands in contrast to other games but the good game at your table beats out a hundred great games never played.
Quote from: BadApple on January 22, 2024, 04:20:05 PM
In both cases, PC development is a more gradual slope that the leveling system that Crawford uses. I think this is the right way to do Cyberpunk. Crawford's view of cyberpunk seems stuck in 1992 and the genre has since grown. I think these two games do a lot to bring the past with them into the current world of cyberpunk stories.
Cyberpunk is meant to be an allegorical criticism of corporate/government corruption and rising totalitarianism. It has now instead been largely turned into nostalgia memberberries ("It's like the 80s, but in the FUTURE").
The only way to do a real Cyberpunk RPG today would be if the villain were basically the globalist managerial class and the WEF. Which is why I would ironically be the best qualified person on earth to make that RPG, and am terrified of doing it, because I bank a lot on my games not being political, and this one would be obviously and plainly political because that's the only way for it to be Cyberpunk.
Quote from: RPGPundit on January 25, 2024, 11:38:08 AM
Quote from: BadApple on January 22, 2024, 04:20:05 PM
In both cases, PC development is a more gradual slope that the leveling system that Crawford uses. I think this is the right way to do Cyberpunk. Crawford's view of cyberpunk seems stuck in 1992 and the genre has since grown. I think these two games do a lot to bring the past with them into the current world of cyberpunk stories.
Cyberpunk is meant to be an allegorical criticism of corporate/government corruption and rising totalitarianism. It has now instead been largely turned into nostalgia memberberries ("It's like the 80s, but in the FUTURE").
The only way to do a real Cyberpunk RPG today would be if the villain were basically the globalist managerial class and the WEF. Which is why I would ironically be the best qualified person on earth to make that RPG, and am terrified of doing it, because I bank a lot on my games not being political, and this one would be obviously and plainly political because that's the only way for it to be Cyberpunk.
I run a cyberpunk game using Hostile from Zozer Games and this is largely how I do it. A large part of the dystopia comes from inept government workers and rich philanthropists that are so detached they don't understand how normal people see them or the harm they do in their "charitable" works. It is in large part what I think the future would look like if groups like the WEF actually succeeded. Of course I still have the malevolent puppet masters working in the shadows.
One of the big challenges would be if you made the setting too on the nose that it would cease to be a fun place to play and take on such a dreary tone as to repel players and GMs alike. I think Neurocity suffers from this despite being quite excellent in every other regard.
I would say that cyberpunk can be more introspective than social critique, examining the individuals who choose to reject society rather than examining the society they rejected. Even then, this does work better when that rejection is valid and reflects a more modern social structure. In part, this was my reasoning for arguing that Star Trek might make an excellent setting for a cyberpunk adventure; the idea that even a fully realized utopia will leave some out in the cold.
Quote from: BadApple on December 03, 2023, 02:09:35 AM
I don't take quite your negative view on it all though, I think the right collection of homebrew solutions could make this game a true top notch game experience.
We should not have to fix things for the game designer. Thats White Wolf and WotC's mentality. "Make the DM and players do the work for us!"
Quote from: Omega on January 25, 2024, 07:53:31 PM
Quote from: BadApple on December 03, 2023, 02:09:35 AM
I don't take quite your negative view on it all though, I think the right collection of homebrew solutions could make this game a true top notch game experience.
We should not have to fix things for the game designer. Thats White Wolf and WotC's mentality. "Make the DM and players do the work for us!"
It is playable RAW but clunky. I have reviewed far, far worse games in the area of needing to be fixed before playing. IMO, almost nothing is playable right out of the box and everything gets homebrewed. That said, I wouldn't offer up any modern R. Talsorian games as recommendations.
I do agree with the sentiment though; I wish games were more carefully constructed and didn't need a GM to kitbash a game to get enjoyment out of it. 99% of them need it though.
Quote from: RPGPundit on January 25, 2024, 11:38:08 AM
Quote from: BadApple on January 22, 2024, 04:20:05 PM
In both cases, PC development is a more gradual slope that the leveling system that Crawford uses. I think this is the right way to do Cyberpunk. Crawford's view of cyberpunk seems stuck in 1992 and the genre has since grown. I think these two games do a lot to bring the past with them into the current world of cyberpunk stories.
Cyberpunk is meant to be an allegorical criticism of corporate/government corruption and rising totalitarianism. It has now instead been largely turned into nostalgia memberberries ("It's like the 80s, but in the FUTURE").
The only way to do a real Cyberpunk RPG today would be if the villain were basically the globalist managerial class and the WEF. Which is why I would ironically be the best qualified person on earth to make that RPG, and am terrified of doing it, because I bank a lot on my games not being political, and this one would be obviously and plainly political because that's the only way for it to be Cyberpunk.
You do realize you have to make that RPG now, right?
Quote from: RPGPundit on January 25, 2024, 11:38:08 AM
Quote from: BadApple on January 22, 2024, 04:20:05 PM
In both cases, PC development is a more gradual slope that the leveling system that Crawford uses. I think this is the right way to do Cyberpunk. Crawford's view of cyberpunk seems stuck in 1992 and the genre has since grown. I think these two games do a lot to bring the past with them into the current world of cyberpunk stories.
Cyberpunk is meant to be an allegorical criticism of corporate/government corruption and rising totalitarianism. It has now instead been largely turned into nostalgia memberberries ("It's like the 80s, but in the FUTURE").
The only way to do a real Cyberpunk RPG today would be if the villain were basically the globalist managerial class and the WEF. Which is why I would ironically be the best qualified person on earth to make that RPG, and am terrified of doing it, because I bank a lot on my games not being political, and this one would be obviously and plainly political because that's the only way for it to be Cyberpunk.
If you choose to make a cyberpunk game, do it under another pseudonym and make sure you're ready for the end of RPG revenue for some time.
Quote from: Brad on January 25, 2024, 09:08:59 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on January 25, 2024, 11:38:08 AM
Quote from: BadApple on January 22, 2024, 04:20:05 PM
In both cases, PC development is a more gradual slope that the leveling system that Crawford uses. I think this is the right way to do Cyberpunk. Crawford's view of cyberpunk seems stuck in 1992 and the genre has since grown. I think these two games do a lot to bring the past with them into the current world of cyberpunk stories.
Cyberpunk is meant to be an allegorical criticism of corporate/government corruption and rising totalitarianism. It has now instead been largely turned into nostalgia memberberries ("It's like the 80s, but in the FUTURE").
The only way to do a real Cyberpunk RPG today would be if the villain were basically the globalist managerial class and the WEF. Which is why I would ironically be the best qualified person on earth to make that RPG, and am terrified of doing it, because I bank a lot on my games not being political, and this one would be obviously and plainly political because that's the only way for it to be Cyberpunk.
You do realize you have to make that RPG now, right?
I keep having other projects to work on. Though I guess at some point, assuming our society keeps slouching toward that dystopia, I'll have to write it.