TheRPGSite

From the archives of USENET (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/net.games.frp) circa 1982

AD&D Sucks (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/net.games.frp/8PUOi_DNYmo)

unc!tim    
20/10/1982

In a possibly vain attempt to get some discussion on this group, I will now come out of the closet publicly and say I think that Advanced Dungeons and Dragons is a very poor excuse for a game.

Gary Gygax has no conception of how books are actually used in a play situation, and a very poor ability to understand hand-to-hand combat.Further, the magic system is totally counter- intuitive. Finally, the importance of magic items (as well as the ideas of class and level) depersonalizes characters, leading to a "rogue"-type environment. (Oh yes, the description of gods in terms of hit dice, etc., is totally useless to the DM, and the unarmed combat system is an atrocity; sorry to have forgotten these.) The only reason that AD&D is the most popular FRP game around is that it has a major lead on the others--unfortunately, TSR has not used this time to improve the rules, only to lengthen them.

The only game I know of that's worse than AD&D, aside from basic D&D, is Tunnels and Trolls. Both RuneQuest and The Fantasy Trip provide much better alternatives, and I am told that SPI's DragonQuest (now owned by TSR) is hard to learn but very smooth once one learns it. I strongly recommend that any AD&D player buy RuneQuest and play a few games before further glorifying their rather primitive game.

        I suppose I should be afraid to sign my name,
        Tim Maroney (unc!tim)

Damn, I thought it was going to be about how necromancy sucks in AD&D, and I agree with that sentiment regardless of D&D edition actually. This? Meh.

rabbit!jj    
20/10/1982


        Well, who do you think is going argue with you?  Not me, and I've only been using ad&d (yes, Gary, it's copyrighted) for about 4 years to administer a huge campaign.  The magic rules are ridiculous, the hand-hand combat makes less sense than using a quarterstaff (and a quarterstaff DOESN't help your AC , com on now, I use a staff, and see if I am as easy to hit when I have a staff as when I do not).
        The reason that I used ad&d was that it was the only well described system on the market when I started DM'ing.  
        Face it, d&d was the FIRST system generally out, and it was  certainly better than anything else (i.e. nothing).  Since it couldn't benefit from experience, it has lots of problems.

        Hopefully, a revision will come out someday that UPDATES ad&d to the current level of complexity and sophistication, and provide a system that is a bit more playable in the long run.

        As for the "organization" of the books, I couldn't agree more.  

        Take a look at DragonQuest (tm-BANTAM BOOKS!!!!!!) to see  something that is better organized.  DQ's rights, except for movie rights, are now owned by Bantam, who is distributing it with their normal line to lots of bookstores, which should increase the distribution of the game quite a bit.  For some strange reason, TSR still owns the movie rights, whatever they amount to. Apparantly SPI had already made a deal with Bantam before TSR called in their loan, and TSR had to stick with it, and

Ok,so AD&D sucks shit. But what makes the others so much better ? What are the prices of better frp systems ? are they totally different or what (ie. are there levels ? ac,hp,etc.?) ?

        I'm almost not afraid to sign my name,

        Ben Walls
 ...cbosgd!bsw

watmath!bstempleton    
21/10/1982


For all who say AD&D sucks, I will have to agree that Gygax is far from perfect.  The following should be remembered - D&D is just a game, and is not supposed to be realistic.  If it were realistic, you would get chopped in half and spill real blood.  Quite often you want to play a non-realistic scheme.  The combat system is one that can be understood by novices and this is good for the game.

Secondly, just about everybody plays d&d quite differently, so nobody really pays that much attention to the tsr rules.  They are a handy thing to base something on, and something that somebody from accross the continent can play with.  If anybody in my dungeon quotes gygax, I just say:  Oh, so that's how he plays it.  Interesting.

I have played with many many combat and magic systems, and find that many people, in their desire to do better, often do worse.

physics:els    
21/10/1982


        I learned my D&D before the other thing was around.  I like to think
that I play the way the game was meant to be played, by using a few tables anda copy of Greyhawk as a LOOSE guideline, arbitrarily remolding things to suitmy whims.  This puts the DM in a much more omnipotent role.  Combat is much more realistic if the DM randomly makes a character slip and fall under the swords of 15 berserkers, etc.  Magic may also be made less silly.  Besides, I enjoy the look of despair on the faces of AD&Ders when I throw them a curve!


                              els[Eric Strobel]
                              pur-ee!pur-phy!els

Quote from: Rincewind1;891701Damn, I thought it was going to be about how necromancy sucks in AD&D, and I agree with that sentiment regardless of D&D edition actually. This? Meh.

What's wrong with it?

Also these calls for more sophistication... hah.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;891708What's wrong with it?

Also these calls for more sophistication... hah.

Bland, poorly executed mechanically, poorer mechanically than many other options that are usually widely accepted in settings, and most importantly - why the hell Clerics can cast Animate Dead sooner than Magic Users?

I miss the days of Usenet pre-Eternal September.

Quote from: estar;891707physics:els    
21/10/1982


        I learned my D&D before the other thing was around.  I like to think
that I play the way the game was meant to be played, by using a few tables anda copy of Greyhawk as a LOOSE guideline, arbitrarily remolding things to suitmy whims.  This puts the DM in a much more omnipotent role.  Combat is much more realistic if the DM randomly makes a character slip and fall under the swords of 15 berserkers, etc.  Magic may also be made less silly.  Besides, I enjoy the look of despair on the faces of AD&Ders when I throw them a curve!


                              els[Eric Strobel]
                              pur-ee!pur-phy!els

Hah, the OSR in a nutshell, back in 1982.

What a find, Estar!

These arguments... it's been 34 years and NOTHING HAS ESSENTIALLY CHANGED. Same arguments, said the same way.

You could post these to TBP or any other board, and no one would tell they were Oh So Ancient.

Heh.

Dude was right on the unarmed combat system.  Yikers that is a mess.

Kind of funny seeing him suggest Runequest.  While I am a bit younger, my group tried exactly that in the late 80s for pretty much the same reasons dude complained about way back when.  Character creation took so long we got bored, then rolled up some ADnD characters real quick and did some adventuring.  :)

Heh... I had to go look and see if I was in the thread, because I participated in a few usenet RPG flamewars back in the day. But I think that's even before MY usenet days.

EDIT: On a related note, I used to know -- and argue with -- our own Justin Alexander on usenet back in the day.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;891788These arguments... it's been 24 years and NOTHING HAS ESSENTIALLY CHANGED. Same arguments, said the same way.

You could post these to TBP or any other board, and no one would tell they were Oh So Ancient.

Heh.

  Your math's off--34 years. :)

  Consider the audience and the environment: Anyone using Usenet in 1982 is likely to be in the hard sciences, and the hobby was pushing towards high-detail, high-realism games in those days, as I understand it. (I was three years old and most interested in stop signs and trains, IIRC. :D) For that kind of audience, and before D&D has managed to generate its own nostalgic or subgenre appeal, AD&D is likely to look less impressive.

AD&D vs RuneQuest. I was there.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;891788These arguments... it's been 24 years and NOTHING HAS ESSENTIALLY CHANGED. Same arguments, said the same way.

You could post these to TBP or any other board, and no one would tell they were Oh So Ancient.

Heh.

Thirty four.

Ah Usenet, I was a small child when that was popular. By the time I actually started surfing the internet in 2003, it was closer to its current form and Usenet was largely dead. But I do love reading old preserved Usenet discussons from the 90's. Another interesting one was the White Wolf Usenet group. Google has preserved most of the threads from that particular group.

Dude was completely right about the unarmed combat system. It blows goats. We have proof.

Cool find. :D

Christ. This really is ancient. Fuck me. This is 1982. The clashes arises from a lack of shared wargaming experience and culture is already apparent.

That, and classical "RQ-cool-kids" D&D-bashing. I think back in 2006-9 we said the elitists should have stayed with Runequest.

But ole' Ron Bat-A-Wang never was allowed into them RQ-groups...

Quote from: estar;891698From the archives of USENET (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/net.games.frp) circa 1982

You rock Estar!! Thank you!

Quote from: Old One Eye;891791Kind of funny seeing him suggest Runequest.  While I am a bit younger, my group tried exactly that in the late 80s for pretty much the same reasons dude complained about way back when.  Character creation took so long we got bored, then rolled up some ADnD characters real quick and did some adventuring.  :)

Well ... the tide had turned by 1982, but for a couple of years there a large faction thought that RQ was going to pass D&D in popularity.  I've seen a good bit of debate down the years whether it failed to do so despite of or because of Glorantha, but I do believe that the publication of AD&D was the critical event in the chain.

Interesting, because when I've played AD&D through OSRIC, due to the tenacious process of early equipment buying, the character generation took about as long as in RQ.

Quote from: Spinachcat;891872You rock Estar!! Thank you!

some other interesting threads

The release of Unearthed Arcana (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/net.games.frp/Unearthed/net.games.frp/xvG7C5vcF0g/OKb1DGq_hwAJ).

Gygax leaving TSR (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/net.games.frp/Gygax/net.games.frp/b276-iwBVhA/bxjxFzFKcusJ)

The first mention of GURPS (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/net.games.frp/GURPS/net.games.frp/ov7Iq7yP78g/-xa3f-7kwHoJ)

A windows into how one group of gamers played at college (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/net.games.frp/s6kfqCponiI).

AD&D's most significant flaw (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/net.games.frp/LbDhSZ8BihI)

A review of Rolemaster (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/net.games.frp/FoFGGuGsZPc)

Fantasy Hero was the fantasy RPG that I switched after abandoning AD&D. This is a post about it. (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/net.games.frp/champions/net.games.frp/q188wgISZkw/1HD-ohFdHogJ)

With the demise of net.games.frp rec.games.frp games (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/rec.games.frp) into being starting in 1987 then split into sub forums in mid 1991.

This is shitty backhanded edition warring, by the way.  At least be honest about it.

With that out of the way, screw history people's opinions on AD&D, I wanna post a reply to the dude who wants to use light (the spell) as a laser beam!  Behold:

Quotewild...@nmtvax.uucp    
11/22/85
Using a light spell as a laser

     This is a device I thought about for a possible campaign. Take some rough
crystal ( ruby, sapphire, emerald, but it has to be carmorundum , glass simply
will not do), and cut it into a cylindrical rod. Polish one end perperdicularly
and silver it. Polish the other end at about a five degree angle, and
partially silver it. Result: LASER CRYSTAL!

     To use, cast a light spell ( normally level 1 ) to originate from inside
the crystal. The crystal will concentrate the light into a cutting beam,
suitable for slicing prison bars, drilling holes into adamantine, or slicing
live dragon into dragon steaks.

Could anyone give me some suggestions for play restrictions on the use of
this device?

Now THAT is some player fuckery right there.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;891911This is shitty backhanded edition warring, by the way.  At least be honest about it.

With that out of the way, screw history people's opinions on AD&D, I wanna post a reply to the dude who wants to use light (the spell) as a laser beam!  Behold:



Now THAT is some player fuckery right there.

I used to work as a jeweler - no frigging way. Technological limitation - you'd not have the tools, technology and knowledge to do it within typical pseudomedieval D&D world. And I don't remember any Polish & Cut Gems (Space Engineering Level) spells. We're talking Hubble - level diamond dust sandpapering.

Reminds me of the general "sophisticated gamer" scorn to D&D in 1990's Israel, i.e. "D&D is unrealistic - play Rolemaster/Shadowrun/Earthdawn/any other typical 1980's rule-heavy system" and "D&D is childish and lacks REAL roleplay - play Vampire the Masquerade/Call of Cthulhu". If you were part of the "cool kids" you expressed scorn to D&D, as did some of the columns in the (few) gaming magazines here.

It also had a lot to do with AD&D 2E and B/X going out of print in Israel as the company publishing them in Hebrew translation (Mitzuv) went bankrupt and getting things from abroad was not so easy in the 1990's.

The entire thing died down - more or less - once D&D 3E came, not to mention once it was translated into Hebrew, and then EVERYONE was playing D&D. The Internet later diversified the hobby somewhat, but still D&D is the biggest game in town.

Quote from: Rincewind1;891923I used to work as a jeweler - no frigging way. Technological limitation - you'd not have the tools, technology and knowledge to do it within typical pseudomedieval D&D world. And I don't remember any Polish & Cut Gems (Space Engineering Level) spells. We're talking Hubble - level diamond dust sandpapering.

Yeah, plus the whole "S E R" part of LASER = "stimulated emission of radiation".  In other words, even assuming he could get the pieces he thinks he needs together (a really pretty highly polished gem and a really bright light) he's missing a medium and a mode of exciting that medium.

I'd be more inclined to honor a wish for "a working laser pistol!" than I would to allow you to "invent" a laser in an AD&D game.

And I wouldn't honor a wish for a laser gun at all.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;891932Yeah, plus the whole "S E R" part of LASER = "stimulated emission of radiation".  In other words, even assuming he could get the pieces he thinks he needs together (a really pretty highly polished gem and a really bright light) he's missing a medium and a mode of exciting that medium.

I'd be more inclined to honor a wish for "a working laser pistol!" than I would to allow you to "invent" a laser in an AD&D game.

And I wouldn't honor a wish for a laser gun at all.

I'd not actually in the second case - in WFRP 1e, if they met one of the futuristic implements, I'd honour it if they asked a Genie for something similar as they'd describe it (or Gods of Chaos). But in a "classic" AD&D world, I don't see how a character'd learn of it, unless of course they did travel into futuristic realms - which isn't impossible by the time they can cast Wish.

Quote from: estar;891904Fantasy Hero was the fantasy RPG that I switched after abandoning AD&D. This is a post about it. (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/net.games.frp/champions/net.games.frp/q188wgISZkw/1HD-ohFdHogJ)

  Interesting. I sold my 1st Edition Fantasy Hero years ago (and kind of regret it), but it sounds like the magic system in the playtest wound up being scrapped for something closer to what we know from later iterations.

1982? Wow, that's an old post! I think I first heard about Usenet about 1985.

This post mirrors the opinion of me and my friends circa 1980-82 regarding AD&D and The Fantasy Trip. I played TFT before I played AD&D, and when I tried AD&D, I was appalled (also because the players I knew were 5th graders who had no idea what they were doing), and it mainly served as fodder for endless derisive comments and put-downs, especially since we already knew TFT, which is much less abstract and more relate-able & tactical in its combat.

I had heard of 0D&D even before then though, and liked what I heard (though even the hearsay made clear that players made up most of their own rules). But when I later got & read the White Box rules, they seemed incomplete, weird, and even less usable than AD&D (though at least they left plenty of room & inspiration for making up your own rules & rulings).

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;891795Your math's off--34 years. :)

  Consider the audience and the environment: Anyone using Usenet in 1982 is likely to be in the hard sciences, and the hobby was pushing towards high-detail, high-realism games in those days, as I understand it. (I was three years old and most interested in stop signs and trains, IIRC. :D) For that kind of audience, and before D&D has managed to generate its own nostalgic or subgenre appeal, AD&D is likely to look less impressive.

In our case, it also applied to somewhat-geeky kids as young as 10 years old, who happened to have already played wargames & TFT.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;891935Interesting. I sold my 1st Edition Fantasy Hero years ago (and kind of regret it), but it sounds like the magic system in the playtest wound up being scrapped for something closer to what we know from later iterations.

I cut up my copy and put int a binder that didn't last. Two years ago I was able to snag a copy off of ebay for a reasonable price. You can buy a copy from Noble Knights for under $10 (http://www.nobleknight.com/ViewProducts.asp_Q_ProductLineID_E_2137422552_A_ManufacturerID_E_39_A_CategoryID_E_12_A_GenreID_E_).

The way Fantasy Hero Magic work that you can customize design it to however you want. Reading it looks like the referee of that campaign used a cosmic power pool option to access a list of prebuilt spells. With the limitations jury rigged to work the way the reviewer described. It possible to get a FH Spell down to one point if you impose some harsh limitations. So it make sense that plowing more points into the "magic ability" get you better spell.

Quote from: Skarg;8919371982? Wow, that's an old post! I think I first heard about Usenet about 1985.

Fun trivia: the US TV show Benson (itself a spinoff of Soap) had a "serious" episode where the Governor's mansion was used as a national HQ during a simulation of a nuclear attack; there was a computer terminal set up, and the person using it explained how the US had a redundant communication system via computer it could use in the event of a nuclear war, and part of it was the system he was using which was Usenet.

That is in and of itself terrifying: after the bombs, a few hundred thousand (or thousand, or few hundred) of morose USAF and SAC personnel making Usenet posts at the end of the world.

"
From: !SAC!NORAD!COLORADO@SAC.MIL

Site 19 ran out of filters for their scrubbers.  Cdr. said 23 people have already started to show signs of rad poisoning.  Site 4's reservoir tank was cracked by a near-miss: they have no potable water; estimate 2-3 weeks before they have to either open up, or die of thirst.

As an aside, holy shit have you guys ever read the rules on Ear Seekers in the Monster Manual?  Gary Gygax sucks!"

Quote from: Rincewind1;891934I'd not actually in the second case - in WFRP 1e, if they met one of the futuristic implements, I'd honour it if they asked a Genie for something similar as they'd describe it (or Gods of Chaos). But in a "classic" AD&D world, I don't see how a character'd learn of it, unless of course they did travel into futuristic realms - which isn't impossible by the time they can cast Wish.

Well, there's S3 Expedition to the Barrier Peaks; it introduces a raft of high-tech items to players.

If a party was high level enough to come through that adventure and in possession of a few high tech items, I would permit a carefully worded Wish or even limited wish to allow them an always-charged laser gun or Powered Armor suit as found in the game, because at 9th-14th level (as the module is targeted), and considering the challenges in it, they've earned those small boons, yes?

There were also rules for Gamma World crossovers in the DMG, that way someone could get their hands on a laser.

If there's any definition of gaming geekery needed, one just has to look right in this thread, where people discuss at length why that laser scheme wouldn't work, instead of falling back on:

QuoteGM (gazing narrowly at eager player, before lashing out to slap him across the face): What kind of powergaming fuckwit are you?

PGFW: Ow!

GM (slaps him again): Never do that again!

PGFW:  Ow!

Some things just require more of a direct method than others.

(That being said, I'm likely undermining my argument by admitting I just looked up exactly how much power an industrial cutting laser requires, and a modern industrial CO2 machine the size of a compact car, operating on 3000 watts -- about 50 times the throughput of the average light bulb -- can cut through a quarter-inch of steel.)[/COLOR]

Quote from: Ravenswing;891965(That being said, I'm likely undermining my argument by admitting I just looked up exactly how much power an industrial cutting laser requires, and a modern industrial CO2 machine the size of a compact car, operating on 3000 watts -- about 50 times the throughput of the average light bulb -- can cut through a quarter-inch of steel.)[/COLOR]

The machine may be the size of a compact car. But the laser itself is in essence a large cabinet with a thick 20 ft to 30 ft cable running out of that terminates in the cutting head.

I work for a metal cutting machine manufacturer where we make plasma torch cutters and water jet cutter torch.

If I remember correctly you need 440 volt power running to the cabinet.

Quote from: estar;891981The machine may be the size of a compact car. But the laser itself is in essence a large cabinet with a thick 20 ft to 30 ft cable running out of that terminates in the cutting head.

I work for a metal cutting machine manufacturer where we make plasma torch cutters and water jet cutter torch.

If I remember correctly you need 440 volt power running to the cabinet.

A plasma torch cutter's a whole 'nother animal, though.

Quote from: Ravenswing;892015A plasma torch cutter's a whole 'nother animal, though.

Yes it is however we went through training on laser to evaluate whether we should make machines to use them. So I am familiar with some of the specifics.

In the end while today laser is a mature technology, it is not particularly suited as a weapon. Even in a fantasy game, I would not allow a crystal to "las" because you polished and put a light spell in it.

Quote from: estar;892027In the end while today laser is a mature technology, it is not particularly suited as a weapon. Even in a fantasy game, I would not allow a crystal to "las" because you polished and put a light spell in it.

Not unless the caster is willing to accept that the light spell produces several thousand watts of energy, and what that means in terms of thermal bloom every time he fires one up ...

Not having seen the original thread, though, I've no idea if anyone called the chump on metagaming grounds.  Since when does a PC raised on medieval fantasy tech know from cutting lasers?

Oh, I forgot:

Damn, it's true what they say about RPGs. After 34 years, nothing changed. D&D still sucks.

I do not see the problem running an adventure where the PCs seek out the world's most expert gem cutter, spend a couple months with them trying out different designs, and ultimately succeeding in creating the world's first magical laser pointer.  Maybe there is a bard in the group and they can put on laser light shows to entertain the king?  Not sure how useful a laser pointer would be.

Quote from: Old One Eye;892158Not sure how useful a laser pointer would be.

You could use it to execise the group's halfling as it chases the dot around the floor of the tavern.

Quote from: Rincewind1;892149Oh, I forgot:

Damn, it's true what they say about RPGs. After 34 years, nothing changed. D&D still sucks.

Hey, Rincewind!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKexAFJNuWY

Wow, I was just coming INTO gaming with my early stumbling games of D&D back then. I didn't even know USEnet was a thing thing. I don't think I got into the forum/usenet scene until very late 80s.

Quote from: Mostlyjoe;892321Wow, I was just coming INTO gaming with my early stumbling games of D&D back then. I didn't even know USEnet was a thing thing. I don't think I got into the forum/usenet scene until very late 80s.

Even before usenet there was the same kind of back and forth bickering going on in The Dragon print forum. It must have been frustrating trying to maintain an ongoing debate when the editors decided whose blathering would get published in a particular issue.

Quote from: estar;891698From the archives of USENET (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/net.games.frp) circa 1982

AD&D Sucks (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/net.games.frp/8PUOi_DNYmo)

On a somber note, the original poster appears to have died at a young age (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002845.html).

I love that one of that necro-poster's first bits of advice is to check out The Fantasy Trip. That's what I was mostly playing at that time (and what I mostly play to this day...), but a lot of people in the hobby today don't know anything about it.

Quote from: Larsdangly;892535I love that one of that necro-poster's first bits of advice is to check out The Fantasy Trip. That's what I was mostly playing at that time (and what I mostly play to this day...), but a lot of people in the hobby today don't know anything about it.

Also the best example of the dividing line between what is a wargame and what is roleplaying game. There is Melee/Wizard on the wargame side and The Fantasy Trip on the other both using in essence the exact same rules.

Quote from: Larsdangly;892535I love that one of that necro-poster's first bits of advice is to check out The Fantasy Trip. That's what I was mostly playing at that time (and what I mostly play to this day...), but a lot of people in the hobby today don't know anything about it.

And it's a crying shame.  A simple, elegant game, and I very nearly went back to it instead of GURPS when I restarted my campaign in '03.  I'd still recommend TFT to any newbie GM.

I've played a lot of GURPS and don't have anything bad to say about it as a system. But TFT kicks the shit out of it when it comes to fun at the table. One of those games that is loved by pretty much everyone who has played it (unfortunately a small crowd!).

While we are on this tiny corner of this small subject, I'm finally getting around to producing a distributable version of my pretty extensive set of TFT house rules (i.e., scrubbed of original writing and artwork like a proper OSR retroclone, so it doesn't violate copyright). If anyone is interested, let me know.

Quote from: Larsdangly;892765I've played a lot of GURPS and don't have anything bad to say about it as a system. But TFT kicks the shit out of it when it comes to fun at the table. One of those games that is loved by pretty much everyone who has played it (unfortunately a small crowd!).

While we are on this tiny corner of this small subject, I'm finally getting around to producing a distributable version of my pretty extensive set of TFT house rules (i.e., scrubbed of original writing and artwork like a proper OSR retroclone, so it doesn't violate copyright). If anyone is interested, let me know.

What to stop somebody from putting everything into Dexterity?

Your question is a little hard to interpret because you don't explain whatever point you are trying to make. Are you asking me what factors in TFT would lead a player to invest in things other than DX? Or are you implying that all players should want to do that in TFT and you want to know what I changed in my house rules to mitigate this? Or something else?

Quote from: Larsdangly;892779Your question is a little hard to interpret because you don't explain whatever point you are trying to make. Are you asking me what factors in TFT would lead a player to invest in things other than DX? Or are you implying that all players should want to do that in TFT and you want to know what I changed in my house rules to mitigate this? Or something else?

Sorry, a friend and me tried Melee and Wizard he "broke" it by making a high DEX fighter. I kept feeling that i was missing a point as to why everybody doesn't make a character like he did.

An extreme, high DX fighter is easy to defeat, assuming we are talking about two combatants who have the same point total and access to any equipment they want. Very high DX buys you precedence in the action order and a high chance of success at your DX rolls. But it doesn't protect you from whatever your opponent does next. And high DX comes at the expense of other things, typically ST.

As an extreme example, imagine someone with ST 8, DX 16 and a dagger and small shield doing 1d6-1 damage and having 1 point of protection. He fights a more normal character having ST 11, DX 13 (11), leather armor, small shield and short sword. The high DX character hits 98 % of the time, but his distribution of damage done through armor is: 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 2, or an expected value of 0.5 points per turn, meaning it will take 18 turns to render his foe unconscious (on average; note I'm ignoring double and triple damage hits because I'm lazy). His foe hits him 62 % of the time with expected value for damage done through armor per blow of 5, meaning he is delivering an expected value of 3 points of damage per turn, rendering the high DX figure unconscious after 2 turns, on average.

This is an extreme example, but there are lots of only somewhat less extreme cases we could look at that make the same point.

The bottom line with TFT is that each of the major stats is a thing you want to maximize but with diminishing returns. The natural 'best value' for each differs somewhat, and changes with point total. And once you get away from the extremes and add in the various advantages of talents and peculiar weapons, there are quite a few strategies that get you to nearly equally good statistical outcomes. This makes for a game where it is easy to spot a rookie mistake, but hard to figure out whether there is anything like an 'optimal build'.

Quote from: Larsdangly;892765One of those games that is loved by pretty much everyone who has played it (unfortunately a small crowd!).

Not so small, and it had some really cool adventure settings like from the Treasure of the Unicorn Gold, or Security Station, and the MicroQuests Death Test 1 & 2. A lot of us played it at one time, the late 70's and early 80's. IIRC it came with the tiniest d6 ever made. Great to play in school.

Quote from: Larsdangly;892765If anyone is interested, let me know.

Yes please.  (Actually, Lars, if you're interested in my old TFT stuff, let me know ...

Quote from: estar;892791Sorry, a friend and me tried Melee and Wizard he "broke" it by making a high DEX fighter. I kept feeling that i was missing a point as to why everybody doesn't make a character like he did.

(shrugs) I doubt he "broke" the system at all.  He just likely had a high DEX fighter.

But sure, let's say he goes with STR 8, DEX 16, INT 8.  Right there, you've locked yourself out of all the better combat skills except for the basic weapons.  But even those skills are superfluous, because you don't have the STR necessary to wield anything beyond a dagger, a light club or a rock.  Not only do I not like your chances in battle, but you've got no skills useful for adventuring beyond that DEX score.

Quote from: Larsdangly;892765If anyone is interested, let me know.

Yes, I'd be interested as well.

I've previously done limited private distribution of documents that contain copyrighted material (just for personal use to a half dozen people). Rather than send that material out again to a couple new people, I am currently finishing up a project that basically re-does the whole thing as a 'copyright clean' retroclone, folding in decades worth of material (talents, jobs, spells, monsters) from my own campaign, and using some house rules that I have found effective at smoothing over some funny spots in the original without changing its basic character. I'm not quite ready to send the finished product out (where - google docs? Lulu?), but I should be within a couple of weeks. I'll come back here and post an informational announcement when it is done.

Quote from: Larsdangly;892812I I am currently finishing up a project that basically re-does the whole thing as a 'copyright clean' retroclone, folding in decades worth of material (talents, jobs, spells, monsters) from my own campaign, and using some house rules that I have found effective at smoothing over some funny spots in the original without changing its basic character. I'm not quite ready to send the finished product out (where - google docs? Lulu?), but I should be within a couple of weeks. I'll come back here and post an informational announcement when it is done.

I understand exactly where you are coming from.

Basically what my Majestic Wilderland supplement is and Majestic Wilderlands 2.0 extends that to a full ruleset because I want everything in one spot in a nice format.

40 years from now we'll still be seeing a lot of the same arguments, I'm sure.