The Ultimate Thread Necromancy - AD&D Sucks

[Armchair Gamer]

Fantasy Hero was the fantasy RPG that I switched after abandoning AD&D. This is a post about it.

  Interesting. I sold my 1st Edition Fantasy Hero years ago (and kind of regret it), but it sounds like the magic system in the playtest wound up being scrapped for something closer to what we know from later iterations.

[Skarg]

1982? Wow, that's an old post! I think I first heard about Usenet about 1985.

This post mirrors the opinion of me and my friends circa 1980-82 regarding AD&D and The Fantasy Trip. I played TFT before I played AD&D, and when I tried AD&D, I was appalled (also because the players I knew were 5th graders who had no idea what they were doing), and it mainly served as fodder for endless derisive comments and put-downs, especially since we already knew TFT, which is much less abstract and more relate-able & tactical in its combat.

I had heard of 0D&D even before then though, and liked what I heard (though even the hearsay made clear that players made up most of their own rules). But when I later got & read the White Box rules, they seemed incomplete, weird, and even less usable than AD&D (though at least they left plenty of room & inspiration for making up your own rules & rulings).

[Skarg]

Your math's off--34 years.

  Consider the audience and the environment: Anyone using Usenet in 1982 is likely to be in the hard sciences, and the hobby was pushing towards high-detail, high-realism games in those days, as I understand it. (I was three years old and most interested in stop signs and trains, IIRC. ) For that kind of audience, and before D&D has managed to generate its own nostalgic or subgenre appeal, AD&D is likely to look less impressive.

In our case, it also applied to somewhat-geeky kids as young as 10 years old, who happened to have already played wargames & TFT.

[estar]

Interesting. I sold my 1st Edition Fantasy Hero years ago (and kind of regret it), but it sounds like the magic system in the playtest wound up being scrapped for something closer to what we know from later iterations.

I cut up my copy and put int a binder that didn't last. Two years ago I was able to snag a copy off of ebay for a reasonable price. You can buy a copy from Noble Knights for under $10.

The way Fantasy Hero Magic work that you can customize design it to however you want. Reading it looks like the referee of that campaign used a cosmic power pool option to access a list of prebuilt spells. With the limitations jury rigged to work the way the reviewer described. It possible to get a FH Spell down to one point if you impose some harsh limitations. So it make sense that plowing more points into the "magic ability" get you better spell.

[thedungeondelver]

1982? Wow, that's an old post! I think I first heard about Usenet about 1985.

Fun trivia: the US TV show Benson (itself a spinoff of Soap) had a "serious" episode where the Governor's mansion was used as a national HQ during a simulation of a nuclear attack; there was a computer terminal set up, and the person using it explained how the US had a redundant communication system via computer it could use in the event of a nuclear war, and part of it was the system he was using which was Usenet.

That is in and of itself terrifying: after the bombs, a few hundred thousand (or thousand, or few hundred) of morose USAF and SAC personnel making Usenet posts at the end of the world.

"
From: !SAC!NORAD!COLORADO@SAC.MIL

Site 19 ran out of filters for their scrubbers.  Cdr. said 23 people have already started to show signs of rad poisoning.  Site 4's reservoir tank was cracked by a near-miss: they have no potable water; estimate 2-3 weeks before they have to either open up, or die of thirst.

As an aside, holy shit have you guys ever read the rules on Ear Seekers in the Monster Manual?  Gary Gygax sucks!"

[thedungeondelver]

I'd not actually in the second case - in WFRP 1e, if they met one of the futuristic implements, I'd honour it if they asked a Genie for something similar as they'd describe it (or Gods of Chaos). But in a "classic" AD&D world, I don't see how a character'd learn of it, unless of course they did travel into futuristic realms - which isn't impossible by the time they can cast Wish.

Well, there's S3 Expedition to the Barrier Peaks; it introduces a raft of high-tech items to players.

If a party was high level enough to come through that adventure and in possession of a few high tech items, I would permit a carefully worded Wish or even limited wish to allow them an always-charged laser gun or Powered Armor suit as found in the game, because at 9th-14th level (as the module is targeted), and considering the challenges in it, they've earned those small boons, yes?

[dragoner]

There were also rules for Gamma World crossovers in the DMG, that way someone could get their hands on a laser.

[Ravenswing]

If there's any definition of gaming geekery needed, one just has to look right in this thread, where people discuss at length why that laser scheme wouldn't work, instead of falling back on:

GM (gazing narrowly at eager player, before lashing out to slap him across the face): What kind of powergaming fuckwit are you?

PGFW: Ow!

GM (slaps him again): Never do that again!

PGFW:  Ow!

Some things just require more of a direct method than others.

(That being said, I'm likely undermining my argument by admitting I just looked up exactly how much power an industrial cutting laser requires, and a modern industrial CO2 machine the size of a compact car, operating on 3000 watts -- about 50 times the throughput of the average light bulb -- can cut through a quarter-inch of steel.)[/COLOR]

[estar]

(That being said, I'm likely undermining my argument by admitting I just looked up exactly how much power an industrial cutting laser requires, and a modern industrial CO2 machine the size of a compact car, operating on 3000 watts -- about 50 times the throughput of the average light bulb -- can cut through a quarter-inch of steel.)[/COLOR]

The machine may be the size of a compact car. But the laser itself is in essence a large cabinet with a thick 20 ft to 30 ft cable running out of that terminates in the cutting head.

I work for a metal cutting machine manufacturer where we make plasma torch cutters and water jet cutter torch.

If I remember correctly you need 440 volt power running to the cabinet.

[Ravenswing]

The machine may be the size of a compact car. But the laser itself is in essence a large cabinet with a thick 20 ft to 30 ft cable running out of that terminates in the cutting head.

I work for a metal cutting machine manufacturer where we make plasma torch cutters and water jet cutter torch.

If I remember correctly you need 440 volt power running to the cabinet.

A plasma torch cutter's a whole 'nother animal, though.

[estar]

A plasma torch cutter's a whole 'nother animal, though.

Yes it is however we went through training on laser to evaluate whether we should make machines to use them. So I am familiar with some of the specifics.

In the end while today laser is a mature technology, it is not particularly suited as a weapon. Even in a fantasy game, I would not allow a crystal to "las" because you polished and put a light spell in it.

[Ravenswing]

In the end while today laser is a mature technology, it is not particularly suited as a weapon. Even in a fantasy game, I would not allow a crystal to "las" because you polished and put a light spell in it.

Not unless the caster is willing to accept that the light spell produces several thousand watts of energy, and what that means in terms of thermal bloom every time he fires one up ...

Not having seen the original thread, though, I've no idea if anyone called the chump on metagaming grounds.  Since when does a PC raised on medieval fantasy tech know from cutting lasers?

[Rincewind1]

Oh, I forgot:

Damn, it's true what they say about RPGs. After 34 years, nothing changed. D&D still sucks.

[Old One Eye]

I do not see the problem running an adventure where the PCs seek out the world's most expert gem cutter, spend a couple months with them trying out different designs, and ultimately succeeding in creating the world's first magical laser pointer.  Maybe there is a bard in the group and they can put on laser light shows to entertain the king?  Not sure how useful a laser pointer would be.

[Simlasa]

Not sure how useful a laser pointer would be.

You could use it to execise the group's halfling as it chases the dot around the floor of the tavern.