I'm of the opinion that the Star Wars EU had some great material for use in games as well as some pure crap that is best ignored. So, if you were running a Star Wars game, what would you keep and what would you throw away from the EU?
For me, I'd keep material from Rogue Squadron, Wraith Squadron, and the Thrawn Trilogy as well as the Modular Taskforce Cruiser and the idea of the World Devastators. The rest of the Dark Empire Sourcebook is crap and the comic series is pure bullshit and can get flushed. The Yuuzhan Vong are stupid as fuck and are best as a very minor side campaign item. The Jedi Academy series never added anything to my games nor did Tales of the Jedi. Shadows of the Empire was always very questionable.
The WEG source books are my main, uh... Sources of information. We tend to play in an undetermined period of time in the setting, usually sometime after A New Hope, but other than that, it's up in the air.
To be honest on the rare occasion I've run a game I do a Disney and add in from other sources (mostly WEG) as much or as little as required.
I use the WEG books and stuff from the Dark Forces games. I never liked the novels or the comic books, so I don't use them.
I use the WEB sourcebooks and the first three Zhan novels. When I run Star Wars I still run the old EU and fuck the new stuff. It's shit.
Well, WEG had it down and Lucas was an idiot for ignoring the timeline that was nicely developed and consistent when making the prequels. Anyway, for me, it's WEG, and Episodes IV, V, VI, Thrawn Trilogy and The Jedi Academy. Not certain on the Dark Empire sourcebook at all, though I owned it at one time (might still own it, don't recall offhand).
In fact, I'm designing my FFG Genesys Star Wars game based in part on FFG's SW game for skills but adopting in WEG's 1st Edition SW version of the Force, as well as utilizing WEG's timeline, equipment, vehicles, and so on. I am borrowing liberally from the prequels as well as TFA and TLJ as far as tech is concerned; there are some great designs of starships and stormtrooper armor and such in those movies that I like.
I've started my most recent game between Episodes IV and V and am going from there. In the future, I would like to run a game during the Knights of the Old Republic timeline too.
I honestly haven't read much EU. I've read Splinter of the Mind's Eye, the X-Wing trilogy by Stackpole, and Shadows of the Empire. I may nab bits and pieces of EU inspired stuff, like Black Sun is fine enough as an underworld organization working with the Empire. But the specifics I tweak freely.
Yuzan Vong are definitely out. A lot of the video game stuff, especially the X-Wing series are good for more spaceships. And the WEG sourcebooks are great to fill in bits and pieces of setting for RPG game purposes.
The first 40 issues or so of the Marvel Star Wars series and Brian Daley's Han Solo trilogy. That's it. Green rabbits, droid worlds, anti-droid prejudice, the Wheel, the Corporate Sector, Bollux.
I use what feels right for the game, whether it is from EU, or made up in my head.
I keep everything up to the end of the Vong War, gives me the opportunity to really change up some of the stereotypical worlds.
Then again, I also set the games well over a century after RotJ.
A lot of it is going to depend on when you are setting the game. Immediately after the Battle of Endor there isn't as much "bulk" as several years after (like after Thrawn). Also almost none of it has to have any effect on your players except for truly galaxy spanning events.
But honestly, as someone who lived and breathed EU as a teenager (1990 to 1998 roughly), I think the new canon is off to a much better start so why not just use that?
Nothing from the novels. I use these WEG books, which I think are the best of the bunch:
GG6 Tramp Freighters
GG9 Fragments from the Rim
GG10 Bounty Hunters
GG11 Criminal Organizations
Shadows of the Empire Guide
Shadows of the Empire Planets Guide
Platt's Smugglers Guide
Platt's Starports Guide
The Planets Collection
Wanted by Cracken
Quote from: KingCheops;1022619But honestly, as someone who lived and breathed EU as a teenager (1990 to 1998 roughly), I think the new canon is off to a much better start so why not just use that?
De gustibus non est disputandum. As someone who started the EU at the same time and kept with it to the bitter end, I still find my selected subset more satisfying than the IMO dull and cynical New Canon.
Personally, I'd like to do the New Jedi Order era with a different take on the Vong, or go back to the Tales of the Jedi era and ignore KOTOR's take--both of which make me an anomaly among fans.
Quote from: Vargold;1022611The first 40 issues or so of the Marvel Star Wars series and Brian Daley's Han Solo trilogy. That's it. Green rabbits, droid worlds, anti-droid prejudice, the Wheel, the Corporate Sector, Bollux.
Ohhh man how could I forget the Han Solo books? I read them over and over again as a kid. I loved those books. Bollux and Blue Max. Launching Stars' End into low orbit. Nutty flavored doughy food stuffed into a blowhole. Xim the Despot and the first battledroid army (which was actually pretty frightening). Repulsorlift limousines. Corporate Sector Authority.
Jaxxon wasn't it? And who was the Quixotic Jedi old dude again? Forgot his name.
Loved it! Thanks for the great memories, Vargold!
Quote from: Vargold;1022611The first 40 issues or so of the Marvel Star Wars series and Brian Daley's Han Solo trilogy. That's it. Green rabbits, droid worlds, anti-droid prejudice, the Wheel, the Corporate Sector, Bollux.
Quote from: CausticJedi;1022689Ohhh man how could I forget the Han Solo books? I read them over and over again as a kid. I loved those books. Bollux and Blue Max. Launching Stars' End into low orbit. Nutty flavored doughy food stuffed into a blowhole. Xim the Despot and the first battledroid army (which was actually pretty frightening). Repulsorlift limousines. Corporate Sector Authority.
Jaxxon wasn't it? And who was the Quixotic Jedi old dude again? Forgot his name.
Loved it! Thanks for the great memories, Vargold!
Vargold, CausticJedi, this one is for you! (http://www.generic-hero.com/lost/index.html) :D
Depends upon the style of my campaign.
(1) I've run some games with the notion that I want to go back to the roots as much as possible. That means the original movie (and novelization), Splinter of the Mind's Eye, the Daley Han Solo books, and that's about it. Some stuff cribbed from ESB and RotJ, such as the bounty hunters.
(2) My other favorite is a "movies plus Zahn" canon where I focus on movies IV-V-VI and the Timothy Zahn books. I like this one because it brings in Mara Jade and some other fun characters.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1022503The WEG source books are my main, uh... Sources of information. We tend to play in an undetermined period of time in the setting, usually sometime after A New Hope, but other than that, it's up in the air.
Same here. Only gotten to GM it once though so far.
I start in the Old Republic. I stay in the Old Republic.
This allows me to use ALL of the WeG modern-era Star Wars gear as "new breakthroughs". Otherwise I stick the the Old Republic lore and do my own thing.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1022628De gustibus non est disputandum. As someone who started the EU at the same time and kept with it to the bitter end, I still find my selected subset more satisfying than the IMO dull and cynical New Canon.
Fair enough. There are no denying the good parts of the EU -- original Thrawn, the Han Solo and Lando Calrissian trilogies, Rogue Squadron.
Quote from: KingCheops;1022619But honestly, as someone who lived and breathed EU as a teenager (1990 to 1998 roughly), I think the new canon is off to a much better start so why not just use that?
I'm fine with Rebels out of the new canon (Rogue One was also good), but I'm less cool with Luke Skywalker turning into Mopey McDipshit.
Well, I never had anything much to do with the EU at all. It intimidated the hell out of me, because by the time I even LOOKED at it it was umpty million books and comics and whatever. So, I never really looked.
In my current Star Wars-ish game setting, I set the Clone Wars eighty years before the Battle of Yavin, and had the newborn Luke and Leia in stasis for most of it. Ep 1 never happened. Anakin was found and brought up as a youngling. Most of Ep 2 was abridged. The Clone Wars and Ep 3 happened pretty much as presented, though with better acting. The Empire had time to make the Jedi into some hokey old religion. I ran a game campaign simultaneously with Ep 4, 5, and 6, where the PCs were, for example, in Cloud City, watching Han Solo getting frozen in Carbonite - they didn't know him from Adam, and it was happening in the background.
Two years ago I ran a new game set simultaneously with Ep 7, with new characters - some were Stormtroopers escaping from StarKiller Base after Finn and Poe created a distraction, with another group set on Jakku, who were children/younger relatives of the old PCs, with a couple of Luke's students who had escaped the bloodletting. I am currently taking these groups, now joined up, just after the events of Ep 8, which happened at the very beginning of our game, and they are dealing with the destruction of the Resistance.
Unlike most of you, I really love the new canon - Clone Wars, Rebels, Force Awakens, and Last Jedi. I think they are amazing.
Quote from: jeff37923;1022711Vargold, CausticJedi, this one is for you! (http://www.generic-hero.com/lost/index.html) :D
Ha! You are awesome, thanks!
*looks up character*
"Don-Wan Kihotay"? Ugh. Now I know why I forgot the name. Even as a kid, I recognized lousy puns when I read them.
Quote from: flyingmice;1022766Well, I never had anything much to do with the EU at all. It intimidated the hell out of me, because by the time I even LOOKED at it it was umpty million books and comics and whatever. So, I never really looked.
In my current Star Wars-ish game setting, I set the Clone Wars eighty years before the Battle of Yavin, and had the newborn Luke and Leia in stasis for most of it. Ep 1 never happened. Anakin was found and brought up as a youngling. Most of Ep 2 was abridged. The Clone Wars and Ep 3 happened pretty much as presented, though with better acting. The Empire had time to make the Jedi into some hokey old religion. I ran a game campaign simultaneously with Ep 4, 5, and 6, where the PCs were, for example, in Cloud City, watching Han Solo getting frozen in Carbonite - they didn't know him from Adam, and it was happening in the background.
Two years ago I ran a new game set simultaneously with Ep 7, with new characters - some were Stormtroopers escaping from StarKiller Base after Finn and Poe created a distraction, with another group set on Jakku, who were children/younger relatives of the old PCs, with a couple of Luke's students who had escaped the bloodletting. I am currently taking these groups, now joined up, just after the events of Ep 8, which happened at the very beginning of our game, and they are dealing with the destruction of the Resistance.
Unlike most of you, I really love the new canon - Clone Wars, Rebels, Force Awakens, and Last Jedi. I think they are amazing.
Oh, I love the movies, no matter the faults (and I know they have them). But as far as canon goes in games I run... well, it will depend. If I decide to play in the era of TLJ for example, I'm still ignoring the prequels as the timeline is completely borked when they were made.
Quote from: CausticJedi;1022776Oh, I love the movies, no matter the faults (and I know they have them). But as far as canon goes in games I run... well, it will depend. If I decide to play in the era of TLJ for example, I'm still ignoring the prequels as the timeline is completely borked when they were made.
Hi Jedi!
The prequels really have dick-all to do with the time of the Last Jedi, so that's easy enough to do. :D
Quote from: CausticJedi;1022776Oh, I love the movies, no matter the faults (and I know they have them). But as far as canon goes in games I run... well, it will depend. If I decide to play in the era of TLJ for example, I'm still ignoring the prequels as the timeline is completely borked when they were made.
The only reason I use the WEG stuff is because it's well establish and has been around, if out of print, for years. It's also mostly timeline neutral for the most part. As for the new films, and this is a side tangent, is that Rian Johnson has said that he was more or less given free reign to do what he wanted because there was no plan for this trilogy, which after watching the last three films (before he made that statement, I'd like to add), I can agree. They don't seem to have a coherent direction, which makes it hard for me and my friends to actually play in that part of the setting. So we don't. We go somewhere else.
Quote from: flyingmice;1022783Hi Jedi!
The prequels really have dick-all to do with the time of the Last Jedi, so that's easy enough to do. :D
Yeah, that's true. Vader's gone, Yoda's (technically) gone, Obi-Wan is gone, Luke is (essentially) gone... but no matter what, MACE WINDU LIVES ON. Being force-lightning blasted out a 1,000-story building window is nothing. Just a flesh wound, really. And we've all seen how missing an arm is a piddling nuisance if that. Seriously. Samuel Jackson needs to come back for the next movie, if nothing else but to say, "Use the motherfucking force, Rey!"
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1022784The only reason I use the WEG stuff is because it's well establish and has been around, if out of print, for years. It's also mostly timeline neutral for the most part. As for the new films, and this is a side tangent, is that Rian Johnson has said that he was more or less given free reign to do what he wanted because there was no plan for this trilogy, which after watching the last three films (before he made that statement, I'd like to add), I can agree. They don't seem to have a coherent direction, which makes it hard for me and my friends to actually play in that part of the setting. So we don't. We go somewhere else.
Interesting. I find that what's most irritating to me is that Lucas apparently gave his blessing on the timeline that WEG et al had come up with and made it official canon, yet went all apeshit stupid when it came to actually filming the prequel movies. So that's why I toss them, besides the overall poor dialog and some of the actors were just not there.
As far as a coherent direction, I suppose for myself, I'll wait until the next few films come out and I'll see. As I've said earlier, my current game is during the Rebellion era so that pretty much makes Episodes IV through infinity irrelevant for my purposes anyway.
Quote from: flyingmice;1022766Unlike most of you, I really love the new canon - Clone Wars, Rebels, Force Awakens, and Last Jedi. I think they are amazing.
There are parts of Rebels I really like. The storyline with Ahsoka was particularly good. I haven't had a chance to watch the latest episodes though.
Quote from: jeff37923;1022481I'm of the opinion that the Star Wars EU had some great material for use in games as well as some pure crap that is best ignored. So, if you were running a Star Wars game, what would you keep and what would you throw away from the EU?
For me, I'd keep material from Rogue Squadron, Wraith Squadron, and the Thrawn Trilogy as well as the Modular Taskforce Cruiser and the idea of the World Devastators. The rest of the Dark Empire Sourcebook is crap and the comic series is pure bullshit and can get flushed. The Yuuzhan Vong are stupid as fuck and are best as a very minor side campaign item. The Jedi Academy series never added anything to my games nor did Tales of the Jedi. Shadows of the Empire was always very questionable.
I stick to canon in the form of the films and TV series (Clone Wars and Rebels) for baseline continuity. They did bring in Thrawn as a character in Rebels, and he is very Thrawn complete with a canon novel by Timothy Zahn so it's not like they don't care about the EU. Disney still owns all the EU stuff, and the people who work on those shows try and sneak stuff back in, which is why Darth Bane appeared in the last season of Clone Wars (voiced by Mark Hamill no less), so he could be part of canon.
When it comes to storylines, I don't consider EU events to be canon for the purposes of running a Star Wars RPG UNLESS it doesn't conflict with existing canon, but I wouldn't even mention it unless it was somehow relevant to the game at the time. Characters and locations I am a bit more fluid with. My games have spent a lot of time on both Coruscant and Nar Shaddaa, both of which are ecumenopoli. Honestly I think the old KOTOR games as well as The Old Republic MMO have given me better source material for using them so far as locations go than any of the novels I have read. But the novels have all the neat NPCs, which you can cross reference with existing canon just in case someone at Disney found a way to sneak them in somehow. Others bring is as you find relevant. My Star Wars Galaxy would probably have an Admiral Daala out there. There would definitely be a Lumiya, because of course there would be a Lumiya and she might even hang out with Asajj Ventress once in a while, before getting her ass handed to her by Ahsoka. I bring in more Mandalorian lore than is currently canon because I always have lots of Mandalorians. But I kind of like how Mandalore is no longer the Space Outback and that it's portrayed as a very high tech society who embrace a martial tradition. But I'd still be tempted to use material from the Republic Commando series while I play the soundtrack to the game, and sing along with Vode An.
A good amount of the Old Republic stuff can still be used. Tatooine is still Tatooine. Nar Shaddaa, Coruscant is still Coruscant and not Had Abaddon like it could have been. The thing is that unless the characters are part of the Empire, or Jedi or part of some major group, a lot of canon or EU events just wouldn't matter. A game run in Hutt Space during the Rebellion period is not going to be a lot different than a game run in Hutt Space during the Old Republic. Rebels is a good example of an adventuring party whose adventures only rarely overlap, mostly in the form of cameos, with canon on occasion. The rest of the time they're doing their own thing.
The thing with Star Wars is that even without the EU, it is huge. Really big. When running Star Wars, only bring in what you need for your campaign, and don't even mention any of the other stuff. Rogue One and the latest trilogy? Not a Gungan nor Ewok to be seen anywhere. I haven't seen the latest movie yet, but I will. And at least with Porgs, those have a reason for existing. It was easier to turn Puffins into Porgs than it would have been to digitally delete all the Puffins from Luke's island. Most importantly though, it's your game and your mileage may vary. Feel free to break the mold. I once used a Gungan Engineer as an NPC, complete with the accent. The players were totally triggered until he installed a ray shield on the ship, and then suddenly he was invited to all the reindeer games. But I deviate from Lucas in that while I have had NPCs act as comic relief, they are not comic relief characters. Okay, that's a lie, I have had comic relief NPCs but they don't last more than a scene or two.
I consider canon fluid. Events will probably go as planned unless something changes them. It's not time travel, because to the PCs, this is the first time all this stuff is happening. Say you're playing an Imperial game and your PCs are all officers on the Death Star and one of them is really good at Hyperspace calculations because he min/maxed it in character creation, and said Imperial Officer says something to the effect of, "Um... Lord Vader. If I may? If you plug this thumb drive into your USB port, you'll see that I recalculated the Hyperjump to go just a little bit further, adjusted by a nano degree so we don't fly into the gas giant's gravity well, and with my calculations, we'll come out on the other side of the planet, and won't have to worry about little things like establishing a stable orbit. We pop in, destroy the Rebel base, and then be back in Coruscant in time for the Space Opera. The one you like, with the floating balls and snake things." Lord Vader approves, Captain Skippy is now Admiral Skippy for a while and peace is re-established in the Empire. And Vader gets to take credit, which means Skippy gets to live to be in the next movie.
Well, my Star Wars canon is Star Wars-Empire Strikes Back-Return of the Jedi. Like 'Alien' movies post 'Aliens', Terminator movies post T2, or Highlander or Robocop post the first one, anything else is strictly optional.
Quote from: jeff37923;1022711Vargold, CausticJedi, this one is for you! (http://www.generic-hero.com/lost/index.html) :D
Oh. My. Glob.
It's full of stars.
If I ever run Star Wars, it'd probably be Original Trilogy with very little taken from material outside that unless it feels to me like it fits with the stuff in those. (I might even retcon out the Ewoks, or at least the details of them fighting armored stormtroopers with sticks and stones.)
I'd be willing to skim some things to take bits and pieces from, perhaps starting with the WEG essentials books mentioned in the thread here about that.
Is the novel about Tarkin any good? That's one of the very few that I thought looked like it might possibly be interesting and to my taste.
Quote from: Skarg;1022997Is the novel about Tarkin any good? That's one of the very few that I thought looked like it might possibly be interesting and to my taste.
I quite enjoyed it. Tarkin is as ruthless a bastard as you expect and utterly brilliant. Felt a fair bit like a mystery novel.
Quote from: KingCheops;1023080I quite enjoyed it. Tarkin is as ruthless a bastard as you expect and utterly brilliant. Felt a fair bit like a mystery novel.
Have you read the Thrawn series? If so, how do they compare, character wise? I have to admit, I liked the concept of Thrawn studying the "racial art" of his opponents in order to defeat them in battle, even if it's about as unrealistic as a lightsaber.
Quote from: CausticJedi;1023132Have you read the Thrawn series? If so, how do they compare, character wise? I have to admit, I liked the concept of Thrawn studying the "racial art" of his opponents in order to defeat them in battle, even if it's about as unrealistic as a lightsaber.
Yup. I'd say that this was actually better quality writing and plot but the Thrawn trilogy holds a special place in my heart due to childhood memories. I haven't read the new Thrawn book.
Quote from: CausticJedi;1023132Have you read the Thrawn series? If so, how do they compare, character wise? I have to admit, I liked the concept of Thrawn studying the "racial art" of his opponents in order to defeat them in battle, even if it's about as unrealistic as a lightsaber.
Hey, man, you gotta respect a man who defeats his enemies with a weaponized BA in Art History. Full disclosure: this character was the exact thing that turned me off of the entire EU in the first place.
Quote from: CausticJedi;1023132Have you read the Thrawn series? If so, how do they compare, character wise? I have to admit, I liked the concept of Thrawn studying the "racial art" of his opponents in order to defeat them in battle, even if it's about as unrealistic as a lightsaber.
Hey, man, you gotta respect a man who defeats his enemies with a weaponized BA in Art History. Full disclosure: this character was the exact thing that turned me off of the entire EU in the first place.
Quote from: KingCheops;1023147Yup. I'd say that this was actually better quality writing and plot but the Thrawn trilogy holds a special place in my heart due to childhood memories. I haven't read the new Thrawn book.
LOL I didn't even know there was a new Thrawn book, but thanks. I'll go search Tarkin out and give a read.
Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;1023157Hey, man, you gotta respect a man who defeats his enemies with a weaponized BA in Art History. Full disclosure: this character was the exact thing that turned me off of the entire EU in the first place.
It didn't turn me off the EU (some of it's pretty cool, especially the objects, like ships, corporations, blasters and speeders) but it was possibly the dumbest thing I had ever heard of. Art is individualistic, it's often created by those who are considered strange and aberrant by their fellows. The exact opposite of what he'd want as a tactician.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1023179It didn't turn me off the EU (some of it's pretty cool, especially the objects, like ships, corporations, blasters and speeders) but it was possibly the dumbest thing I had ever heard of. Art is individualistic, it's often created by those who are considered strange and aberrant by their fellows. The exact opposite of what he'd want as a tactician.
Okay, to defend the indefensible for a moment, Thrawn is the only being ever to be able to do this thing, so perhaps it's more of a force-sense or perhaps how he expresses his intuition. He could have had a one-of-a-kind schooling and training in tactics and is simultaneously simply a prodigy. It may not even be "true" in-universe that he gains special insight through the artwork, but he "believes" it to be "true" so he seeks out artwork and gives the credit of his intuition to his studying art, rather than saying, "yeah, I dunno. I can just do it really, really well."
And actually, I kind of liked the idea of it. It was a novel approach at any rate.
Quote from: S'mon;1022838Well, my Star Wars canon is Star Wars-Empire Strikes Back-Return of the Jedi. Like 'Alien' movies post 'Aliens', Terminator movies post T2, or Highlander or Robocop post the first one, anything else is strictly optional.
I'm entirely with you on this.
Quote from: KingCheops;1023080I quite enjoyed it. Tarkin is as ruthless a bastard as you expect and utterly brilliant. Felt a fair bit like a mystery novel.
Thanks.
For me, the whole point of running a Star Wars game instead of making up my own space fantasy setting is being able to say "You've seen the movies, right? Well, there you go! Let's start!" I use the movies and toss the rest.
I don't even use most of the WEG stuff because of stupidity like making each unique alien into a prototype for their entire cloned species. For example, Greedo is a Rodian bounty hunter, therefore all Rodians are bounty hunters and their entire civilisation revolves around bounty hunting.
The only things the WEG books are useful for is the rules. The source books are not only badly written, they're badly written by people who are more interested in their own ass-pull than they are in trying to re-create what you see in the movies (sometimes I doubt the authors even watched the movies). This wouldn't be a big deal were it not for the fact that some of the less intelligent fans and EU writers started thinking that the movies (and later, the TV shows) were somehow supposed to follow the comic books, dime novels and video games rather than the other way around.
For example, the
Executor is listed in the WEG materials as being 5 miles long (5 times the length of a regular star destroyer), but clearly is more than double that length. Somehow this bit of stupidity ended up in "official" spin-off books and other media to the point that when Lucasfilm corrected such an obvious mistake (which is like claiming Chewbacca is only 3 feet tall), the EU/WEG devotees squealed like Ned Beatty in
Deliverance.
Aside from the movies themselves, the best sources for material are the Brian Daley books, the Art of Star Wars books, and the DK Incredible Cross-Sections books. Another great source is the Technical Commentaries by astrophysicist Curtis Saxton, which is available free of charge here:
Star Wars Technical Commentaries (http://www.theforce.net/swtc/index.html)Quote from: CausticJedi;1022562Well, WEG had it down and Lucas was an idiot for ignoring the timeline that was nicely developed and consistent when making the prequels.
What the fuck are you talking about?
Quote from: Elfdart;1023714The only things the WEG books are useful for is the rules. The source books are not only badly written, they're badly written by people who are more interested in their own ass-pull than they are in trying to re-create what you see in the movies (sometimes I doubt the authors even watched the movies). This wouldn't be a big deal were it not for the fact that some of the less intelligent fans and EU writers started thinking that the movies (and later, the TV shows) were somehow supposed to follow the comic books, dime novels and video games rather than the other way around.
For example, the Executor is listed in the WEG materials as being 5 miles long (5 times the length of a regular star destroyer), but clearly is more than double that length. Somehow this bit of stupidity ended up in "official" spin-off books and other media to the point that when Lucasfilm corrected such an obvious mistake (which is like claiming Chewbacca is only 3 feet tall), the EU/WEG devotees squealed like Ned Beatty in Deliverance.
Aside from the movies themselves, the best sources for material are the Brian Daley books, the Art of Star Wars books, and the DK Incredible Cross-Sections books. Another great source is the Technical Commentaries by astrophysicist Curtis Saxton, which is available free of charge here:
Star Wars Technical Commentaries (http://www.theforce.net/swtc/index.html)
What the fuck are you talking about?
Well, I'm fucking talking about the concept that fucking Lucas himself said that the fucking EU (at the time) was canon material; it was developed, fucking laid out, and seemed to make good sense about when the fucking Empire was fucking created, when the fucking Death Star was made, when the fucking Clone Wars were fought, and fucking so on.
Then Lucas fucking came along and made the fucking prequel films which fucking trashed the entire timeline that was fucking made up until then... the one he fucking said was a-ok then later not.
Some sure gave a lot of fucks... Wow.
I believe the quote in question was that as long as it didn't contradict the movies, then it was canon. Which allowed him to still make movies as he wished, and if the EU ended up contradicting, too bad, so sad, the EU lost.
Although I believe he may have tacitly ignored the Christmas special, in the same way he ignored mitochlorians for the rest of his prequels.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1023888I believe the quote in question was that as long as it didn't contradict the movies, then it was canon. Which allowed him to still make movies as he wished, and if the EU ended up contradicting, too bad, so sad, the EU lost.
Once again, you are exactly correct, Eager Young Space Cadet!
Which is Uncle George basically saying "I'm going to ignore the books, but knock yourselves out."
Quote from: CausticJedi;1023860Well, I'm fucking talking about the concept that fucking Lucas himself said that the fucking EU (at the time) was canon material; it was developed, fucking laid out, and seemed to make good sense about when the fucking Empire was fucking created, when the fucking Death Star was made, when the fucking Clone Wars were fought, and fucking so on.
Really? What exactly did Lucas change? I ask because the Prequels were more or less the result of having painted himself into a corner with the first three movies. I don't see how they could have been that much different.
QuoteThen Lucas fucking came along and made the fucking prequel films which fucking trashed the entire timeline that was fucking made up until then... the one he fucking said was a-ok then later not.
You're dumb. The movies have ALWAYS trumped the spin-off materials. Next you'll be telling me that because the toy Millennium Falcon only has one AA-gun emplacement and the one in the movie has two, the movies are somehow "wrong".
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1023888Some sure gave a lot of fucks... Wow.
I believe the quote in question was that as long as it didn't contradict the movies, then it was canon. Which allowed him to still make movies as he wished, and if the EU ended up contradicting, too bad, so sad, the EU lost.
Although I believe he may have tacitly ignored the Christmas special, in the same way he ignored mitochlorians for the rest of his prequels.
The midichlorians were mentioned in Revenge of the Sith. As for the Holiday Special, yeah it was a grease fire in an unsanitary diner but it wasn't nearly as bad as the Donnie & Marie Star Wars Special, complete with tap-dancing stormtroopers.
I don't think the idea was "examining the Mona Lisa lets you predict how the Rebels will attack the 3rd Death Star".
Thrawn was a master at tactics and intelligence analysis. Studying a race and cultures philosophy, art, religion, etc gives you insight into how they think, what matters to them. Using that as additional input on top of all the data everyone else is using, gives his mind a deeper understanding of the enemy that allows him to output his genius strategies.
He's like Sherlock Holmes, or House, etc. his brain works differently, allowing him some savant-level perception and analysis.
Quote from: jeff37923;1022481I'm of the opinion that the Star Wars EU had some great material for use in games as well as some pure crap that is best ignored. So, if you were running a Star Wars game, what would you keep and what would you throw away from the EU?
For me, I'd keep material from Rogue Squadron, Wraith Squadron, and the Thrawn Trilogy as well as the Modular Taskforce Cruiser and the idea of the World Devastators. The rest of the Dark Empire Sourcebook is crap and the comic series is pure bullshit and can get flushed. The Yuuzhan Vong are stupid as fuck and are best as a very minor side campaign item. The Jedi Academy series never added anything to my games nor did Tales of the Jedi. Shadows of the Empire was always very questionable.
I've only ran a one-shot. I chucked the whole EU, along with everything past the first 6 movies, because I simply haven't read it;).
Quote from: Elfdart;1023928Really? What exactly did Lucas change? I ask because the Prequels were more or less the result of having painted himself into a corner with the first three movies. I don't see how they could have been that much different.
http://deckplans.00sf.com/Research/Prequel.html I had run across this website years ago and happened to stumble across it again recently and I think this guy lays out a great argument with quotes and dates and such. Skim through that a bit to better understand my POV.
QuoteYou're dumb. The movies have ALWAYS trumped the spin-off materials. Next you'll be telling me that because the toy Millennium Falcon only has one AA-gun emplacement and the one in the movie has two, the movies are somehow "wrong".
Oh, come on and please grow up. "You're dumb." Fucking please. We're here arguing fantasy and make believe and I'm trying to get some enjoyment from it, but man, this 4chan attitude is somewhat a surprise.
The timeline that was established during the movies is too advanced, too compressed to make sense. That's my argument. The timeline that Lucas authorized as canon as written by WEG and other authors made sense as when things happened -- as I said, when the Death Star I and II were built, by whom; when Palpatine took over the galactic senate and created the Empire.... this last one is particularly jarring. We're expected to believe that in the space of nineteen years, the entire galaxy pretty much forgot all about jedi -- enough that Solo who was well-traveled by the time of A New Hope, didn't know much about them and (through Solo) we're to understand that his is a common perception.
In the EU, the Empire had been around for about fifty-ish years and the Clone Wars were fought before that happened.
Things like that.
Quote from: CRKrueger;1023931I don't think the idea was "examining the Mona Lisa lets you predict how the Rebels will attack the 3rd Death Star".
Thrawn was a master at tactics and intelligence analysis. Studying a race and cultures philosophy, art, religion, etc gives you insight into how they think, what matters to them. Using that as additional input on top of all the data everyone else is using, gives his mind a deeper understanding of the enemy that allows him to output his genius strategies.
He's like Sherlock Holmes, or House, etc. his brain works differently, allowing him some savant-level perception and analysis.
Yes, thank you! This is all I was trying to say. It may be as realistic as hyperspace travel, but I felt it was an interesting concept and I thought it was decently written.
Quote from: CausticJedi;1023984Yes, thank you! This is all I was trying to say. It may be as realistic as hyperspace travel, but I felt it was an interesting concept and I thought it was decently written.
Zahn's books were very well done. Consistent, good dialogue, the concepts and plot points were solid from beginning to end. And his take on the Clone Wars were *far* more interesting than Lucas's.
But that said. I still maintain the Old Republic era is vastly superior to anything in the modern era for gaming.
The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.
I am deleting my content.
I recommend you do the same.
Quote from: CausticJedi;1023983http://deckplans.00sf.com/Research/Prequel.html I had run across this website years ago and happened to stumble across it again recently and I think this guy lays out a great argument with quotes and dates and such. Skim through that a bit to better understand my POV.
Yeah, that's a really nice article by someone with thoughtful patience who cares about continuity. Such a relief to read that in comparison to the various flavors of quickdraw apologists and "it's Star Wars - nothing needs to make any sense because there are laser swords and space wizards".
Quote from: Justin Alexander;1024004Whenever somebody claims that Luke is 40-50 years old at the beginning of A New Hope, I'm always baffled by it.
I kind of like the idea that Anakin's children were put in cryogenic stasis pods for a few decades as part of hiding them from their father.
Quote from: CausticJedi;1023983We're expected to believe that in the space of nineteen years, the entire galaxy pretty much forgot all about jedi -- enough that Solo who was well-traveled by the time of A New Hope, didn't know much about them and (through Solo) we're to understand that his is a common perception.
According to Star Wars : The Essential Atlas, the Galaxy has 100 Quadrillion citizens over 50 million words. The number of Jedi that existed around the time of Order 66 was around 10000. So about one Jedi per ten billion sentient. How hard is it to imagine forgetting something that statistically less than a fraction of one per cent of the population has ever seen with their own eyes?
Quote from: CausticJedi;1023983We're expected to believe that in the space of nineteen years, the entire galaxy pretty much forgot all about jedi -- enough that Solo who was well-traveled by the time of A New Hope, didn't know much about them and (through Solo) we're to understand that his is a common perception.
From the prequels, I got the impression that the Jedi were ultra-rare. We see a lot of them because the movies are about them, but most people never see one. Extrapolating from this, I can see the average Joe Solo saying "Eh, never believed in 'em anyway. Buncha Republic propaganda."
Plus, in order for Darth Vader to help the Emperor hunt down and destroy the Jedi, as Ben Kenobi says in ANH, it would have to have occurred in Vader/Anakin's adult lifetime.
Quote from: Elfdart;1023928Really? What exactly did Lucas change? I ask because the Prequels were more or less the result of having painted himself into a corner with the first three movies. I don't see how they could have been that much different.
Quote from: tenbones;1023993Zahn's books were very well done. Consistent, good dialogue, the concepts and plot points were solid from beginning to end. And his take on the Clone Wars were *far* more interesting than Lucas's.
But that said. I still maintain the Old Republic era is vastly superior to anything in the modern era for gaming.
The Zahn books were considered among the best, and a lot of fans really liked Mara Jade and Thrawn and wanted them to be canon. However, the Zahn idea of the Clone Wars was cloned Jedi that went mad. So when the prequels were made, Thrawn and Jade were suddenly non-canon. But I also found out that there were a huge group of the fanbase didn't realize, or didn't want to, that they weren't. That's how beloved they had become.
Mara Jade should have been spaced a hundred words after she first appeared.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1024094Mara Jade should have been spaced a hundred words after she first appeared.
Eh, she was typical for the times, but at least she had flaws. Unlike the modern female heroine.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1024084The Zahn books were considered among the best, and a lot of fans really liked Mara Jade and Thrawn and wanted them to be canon. However, the Zahn idea of the Clone Wars was cloned Jedi that went mad. So when the prequels were made, Thrawn and Jade were suddenly non-canon. But I also found out that there were a huge group of the fanbase didn't realize, or didn't want to, that they weren't. That's how beloved they had become.
I haven't read the Zahn books.
I liked
Mara Jade and
Jacen, and
Corran Horn though. Some of the best Star Wars writing came out of those
New Jedi Order books published between 2000 and 2004, and these stories served as an inspiration for at least two of my
Star Wars campaigns, in one, the players faced off against the
Yuushan Vong invasion, and none of my players had read the books, so I had an absolutely tremendously good time, running a game where the player's were facing off against new types of ships, and force using aliens with completely unknown technology. It made for a very lively game.
In the other campaign I ran back in the first decade of the new millennium, I extrapolated, and made the players part of the crew of a Nebulon-B Pirate Frigate,
Free Lance, and then intersected the players story with the plot right out of the The
New Jedi Order: Dark Tide I: Onslaught story from Michael Stackpole where the players managed to get away from the
Yuushan Vong in deep space where the
Free Lance had setup an ambush for an Imperial convoy, and was instead ambushed by the
Yuushan Vong. The players got to save the ship while the captain made the blind jumps, and then they got away after the Frigate was attacked and forced to surrender by
Rogue Squadron.
Also these books and the Star Wars RPG from WOTC kept the Star Wars fans involved after the disastrous prequel trilogy.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1024094Mara Jade should have been spaced a hundred words after she first appeared.
I'm curious. Why should she have been flushed?
Well, it's just a personal opinion. But I hated the character instantly.
She was like chewing on tinfoil with a mouthful of fillings.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1024112Well, it's just a personal opinion. But I hated the character instantly.
She was like chewing on tinfoil with a mouthful of fillings.
Was there anything specific? (Honest question.)
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1024118Was there anything specific? (Honest question.)
She is a massive bitch when first introduced, and her constant "I hate you, I'm going to kill you and fuck you for wanting to know why" attitude got old very quickly.
Thankfully, it only lasted around 3 books.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1024131She is a massive bitch when first introduced, and her constant "I hate you, I'm going to kill you and fuck you for wanting to know why" attitude got old very quickly.
Thankfully, it only lasted around 3 books.
The "I'm better than Luke at everything!" shtick got old for me real quick.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1024131She is a massive bitch when first introduced, and her constant "I hate you, I'm going to kill you and fuck you for wanting to know why" attitude got old very quickly.
Thankfully, it only lasted around 3 books.
And she's really only particularly abrasive about it for the second half of the first book. After that, the edges start wearing off a bit.
Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;1024133The "I'm better than Luke at everything!" shtick got old for me real quick.
Well, that's a reasonable part of the character's attitude considering her background ... and since she nearly gets herself killed twice in the first book alone, it's pretty clearly just her attitude than an objective attribute. (She's definitely competent, but she's not a Mary Sue.)
What everybody above said.
Mara is one of my favorite characters, and the Luke/Mara pairing is probably the only 'ship' I've really backed, but even I have to acknowledge that the character can be annoying and rub people the wrong way, especially in the early books.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1024084The Zahn books were considered among the best, and a lot of fans really liked Mara Jade and Thrawn and wanted them to be canon. However, the Zahn idea of the Clone Wars was cloned Jedi that went mad. So when the prequels were made, Thrawn and Jade were suddenly non-canon. But I also found out that there were a huge group of the fanbase didn't realize, or didn't want to, that they weren't. That's how beloved they had become.
Zahn's Clone Wars idea made a lot more narrative sense. Think about it - the Jedi had largely disappeared by the time Episode IV happened. If we assume the Jedi/Sith were already super-rare, this was solid narrative in that making the Clone Wars a kind of internal Jedi-shadow war among themselves largely out of view of the public that already assumed they were urban myths aside from clear evidence they at one time existed, made perfect sense.
As opposed to having them be the leaders of a gigantic galaxy-wide war and a mere 19-years later everyone has largely forgotten about them. Drivel.
Plus it opens up some very dark possibilities which Zahn hinted at. Edit- And Thrawn and the Chiss are *awesome*.
Quote from: CausticJedi;1023983http://deckplans.00sf.com/Research/Prequel.html I had run across this website years ago and happened to stumble across it again recently and I think this guy lays out a great argument with quotes and dates and such. Skim through that a bit to better understand my POV.
I've been accused of being a "defender" of the Prequels, which is odd since movies that are among the most successful ever made don't really need to be defended. But one reason I have little patience for those who bash the movies is that not one of them has ever come up with a criticism that isn't dishonest, ignorant, willfully stupid, severely retarded, or all of the above. The site you linked to is exhibit Z, right behind the hour-long YouTube videos from the guy who also yuks it up about humping cats and mutilating women in his basement.
QuoteOh, come on and please grow up. "You're dumb." Fucking please. We're here arguing fantasy and make believe and I'm trying to get some enjoyment from it, but man, this 4chan attitude is somewhat a surprise.
You're still dumb.
QuoteThe timeline that was established during the movies is too advanced, too compressed to make sense. That's my argument. The timeline that Lucas authorized as canon as written by WEG and other authors made sense as when things happened -- as I said, when the Death Star I and II were built, by whom; when Palpatine took over the galactic senate and created the Empire.... this last one is particularly jarring. We're expected to believe that in the space of nineteen years, the entire galaxy pretty much forgot all about jedi -- enough that Solo who was well-traveled by the time of A New Hope, didn't know much about them and (through Solo) we're to understand that his is a common perception.
The others have already gone over this, but surely you didn't have your head
all the way up your ass when watching the movies, did you? When the Jedi were rare to begin with, exterminated to the point where only two remained and both were in hiding AND the Galactic Empire was a police state, people
made it point not to say much of anything about them. In any event, Solo knew enough about them to recognize "hokey religions and ancient weapons" when he saw them, and scoffed at the idea that Luke had actually become a Jedi Knight in ROTJ. So people remembered the Jedi.
QuoteIn the EU, the Empire had been around for about fifty-ish years and the Clone Wars were fought before that happened.
Well then the EU, like my toy Millennium Falcon, was wrong.
QuoteThings like that.
Oy vey. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1024094Mara Jade should have been spaced a hundred words after she first appeared.
The new canon nullifies her existence. What more do you want?
Quote from: Krimson;1024718The new canon nullifies her existence. What more do you want?
Like the Auditors and the Hogfather, I want her
to never have been!
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1024721Like the Auditors and the Hogfather, I want her to never have been!
Fixed Point in Time. I'm so sorry.
Today the Hogfather, tomorrow the world!