The D&D Shorts Youtube channel published his account of what is going on behind the scenes at WotC, based on multiple leaks (how he proceeded to verify that they are legit is in the description).
In my post about the situation I mused if WotC had somehow already invested too much (in signed contracts and/or money) to be able to just step back. Apparently, the key to the recent brouhaha is that they want for D&D to become a digital experience (*) and they already invested hundreds of millions in their digital initiatives. This tracks with other sources who basically said that everything turns around VTTs and that WotC wants for them to disappear. D&DBeyond was bought just to be killed ($150 millions just for the first step??) Everything else aims to turn D&D into a "videogame model".
I believe the rest because it is terminally banal. The lower ranks play D&D, understand the market, are not listened to and now they are scared about their live hoods. The bunch of people who run the circus do not play D&D, and are clueless about the realities of the game and its community. They see M:TG as a $1 billion market while D&D brings home $100-150 millions/year. The aim is to increase this revenue... eight fold?? If there is an highway to suicide, it is this one.
Anyway, here is the video. Don't forget to check the description and the process used to collect this info.
(*) BTW, didn't Neverwinter Nights the computer game(s) already do that decades ago?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4kGMsZSdbY
Quote from: Reckall on January 22, 2023, 02:19:13 PM
(*) BTW, didn't Neverwinter Nights the computer game(s) already do that decades ago?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4kGMsZSdbY
It... tried. Bless it's heart, it tried.
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEjiALIAyoizZrPfm44deZfCo-Qv0S50mORXp4iKMG7lZumKxjMVvequzyocht1FBtIcSjfAL6lAWobfVtKUj5dGWdwVFD1c-j8bE5AjgXYPwn_UZdn6qGmZv-EmA5cpsnjjxXHWPoQrsIpkGX_VMHm0uI6aVeIeiy3myCMrBbLDX94JWXB1z-3iDz7D=w400-h266)
Kyle Reese tells the OGL 1.0 about WoTC's Digital Initiative:
"It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop... ever, until you are dead!"
Quote from: Reckall on January 22, 2023, 02:19:13 PM
The D&D Shorts Youtube channel published his account of what is going on behind the scenes at WotC, based on multiple leaks (how he proceeded to verify that they are legit is in the description).
In my post about the situation I mused if WotC had somehow already invested too much (in signed contracts and/or money) to be able to just step back. Apparently, the key to the recent brouhaha is that they want for D&D to become a digital experience (*) and they already invested hundreds of millions in their digital initiatives. This tracks with other sources who basically said that everything turns around VTTs and that WotC wants for them to disappear. D&DBeyond was bought just to be killed ($150 millions just for the first step??) Everything else aims to turn D&D into a "videogame model".
Agreed.
Wotzi is what poker players would call: Pot-Invested. They have too much riding to just fold now. They must see things through to the river if they want any chance of seeing a return.
D&D makes 150 million a year, and
they've already spent at least double that buying D&D beyond, and investing in the OneVTT.
Wreckers or checkers territory. This OGL shit is going to court.
The devious thing to do would be to apply for a court to issue a preliminary injunction against Wotzi rolling out OGL 1.2 until the issues with the irrevocability of OGL 1.0 get resolved.
That would really piss in their cheerios...
Quote from: Reckall on January 22, 2023, 02:19:13 PM
I believe the rest because it is terminally banal. The lower ranks play D&D, understand the market, are not listened to and now they are scared about their live hoods. The bunch of people who run the circus do not play D&D, and are clueless about the realities of the game and its community. They see M:TG as a $1 billion market while D&D brings home $100-150 millions/year. The aim is to increase this revenue... eight fold?? If there is an highway to suicide, it is this one.
...
Absolutely rings true. Especially the parts where WotC contradicts itself and is speaking out of both sides of its mouth regarding the $30.00 fees for the upcoming One VTT, with D&D beyond saying that they will never charge $30.00 fee's.
Most of the hobby will never realize that they are talking about two different things, and take Corp wotzi's word over insider source Wotzi employee's.
I was skeptical before but somehow less now.
Why would they charge for 'homebrew'? Because they would charge for the non-automation options. They would also charge for the map-making capabilities. I think them calling it homebrew makes more sense as internal communication between internal things, and not necessarily purely exec presentation.
That's all well and good, but what about this actually changes anything? And this is to say nothing about what upper level Hasbro has been up to, because you know they've got a finger in this.
I think it's obvious at least that Paizo brainstormed what to do if WotC went full Double Flying Dutchman Douchebag on them, and the speed other companies got behind the ORC makes me think they actually did some networking homework over the 5E years. Might be wrong on that, but Paizo getting pinched by 4E probably made them plan to fight back the next time.
But at the end of the day...who cares? D&D is a fossil of a game which only maintained it's marketshare thanks to OGL content. I think this incident and it's fallout over the next year is probably going to spell the end of D&D's majority marketshare, and frankly that can't end soon enough for my tastes.
Quote from: Jaeger on January 22, 2023, 04:22:22 PM
Quote from: Reckall on January 22, 2023, 02:19:13 PM
The D&D Shorts Youtube channel published his account of what is going on behind the scenes at WotC, based on multiple leaks (how he proceeded to verify that they are legit is in the description).
In my post about the situation I mused if WotC had somehow already invested too much (in signed contracts and/or money) to be able to just step back. Apparently, the key to the recent brouhaha is that they want for D&D to become a digital experience (*) and they already invested hundreds of millions in their digital initiatives. This tracks with other sources who basically said that everything turns around VTTs and that WotC wants for them to disappear. D&DBeyond was bought just to be killed ($150 millions just for the first step??) Everything else aims to turn D&D into a "videogame model".
Agreed.
Wotzi is what poker players would call: Pot-Invested. They have too much riding to just fold now. They must see things through to the river if they want any chance of seeing a return.
D&D makes 150 million a year, and they've already spent at least double that buying D&D beyond, and investing in the OneVTT.
Wreckers or checkers territory. This OGL shit is going to court.
The devious thing to do would be to apply for a court to issue a preliminary injunction against Wotzi rolling out OGL 1.2 until the issues with the irrevocability of OGL 1.0 get resolved.
That would really piss in their cheerios...
Quote from: Reckall on January 22, 2023, 02:19:13 PM
I believe the rest because it is terminally banal. The lower ranks play D&D, understand the market, are not listened to and now they are scared about their live hoods. The bunch of people who run the circus do not play D&D, and are clueless about the realities of the game and its community. They see M:TG as a $1 billion market while D&D brings home $100-150 millions/year. The aim is to increase this revenue... eight fold?? If there is an highway to suicide, it is this one.
...
Absolutely rings true. Especially the parts where WotC contradicts itself and is speaking out of both sides of its mouth regarding the $30.00 fees for the upcoming One VTT, with D&D beyond saying that they will never charge $30.00 fee's.
Most of the hobby will never realize that they are talking about two different things, and take Corp wotzi's word over insider source Wotzi employee's.
And sometimes, those high stakes gamblers lose big time. They push their bets too far, as though they have a royal flush; but in the end, they don't.
Quote from: Jaeger on January 22, 2023, 04:22:22 PM
Wotzi is what poker players would call: Pot-Invested. They have too much riding to just fold now. They must see things through to the river if they want any chance of seeing a return.
Just to build off this analogy, WotC has no pokerface. Their cards are on the table and everyone has called their bluff. Everything hinges on how much collateral they can offer to buy into the next hand.
IF Wotzi manages to release a good game they'll be competing with other MMORPGs but with 3 distinct advantages:
1.- Name recognition
2.- Single player mode
3.- The DM (Be it a good AI or human)
WoW charges $15 US month, which doesn't include ANY "free" cosmetics, I bet those who spend money playing MMORPGs spend very close to $30 US, which is Wotzi thinks they can get that price for the "All inclusive" subscription, I suspect the base one will be around the 15 dollar mark with microtransactions up the wazoo.
How many people (Normies) will try it? I bet they have crunched their numbers and it's worth the risk for them.
Now, IF they were to leave the VTTs alone and don't engage in lawfare against publishers then I wish them all the luck in the world.
If not, well I can buy me tabletop simulator or install maptools. Anyone of those solutions is not only cheaper than paying Wotzi it's also the way to give them the finger for being such douchebags.
As I mentioned in my comment on DnD Shorts' video, if TTRPG gamers and MMO players were interchangeable with each other, and TTRPGs could be replaced by MMOs it would've happened already, cuz MMOs have been a thing for DECADES. As mentioned in the OP, NWNs even tried to do this already—and it was a very successful game, with a very enduring community—yet it STILL didn't replace tabletop. It merely added an extra set of options for a subset of the community that overlapped with TTRPG gamers, but didn't replace TTRPGs, or even became the primary way to play D&D.
This is why all attempts to completely digitalize TTRPGs have failed and will continue to fail. The point of TTRPGs is that they don't have to be digital. And even when you play them through a digital environment you don't need special tools. You can just play through some type of chat or VOIP app, and make your character in a notepad or word file. You don't even need special fillable pdf character sheets, but even having those means you don't need a special $30 fucking dollars a month subscription platform to play.
These idiot execs are trying to build a more expensive MMO to replace a TTRPG that has never been replaced by MMOs in the vague and uncertain hope that D&D players (not just DMs, but PLAYERS) will pony up $30/mo, and it will FAIL—drastically! Now they're in panic mode after this debacle, going into sunken cost fallacy mode, trying to make this work however they can cuz they've invested so much into this already, but it will FAIL and end up costing Hasbro MILLIONS.
And by the way, the reason why NWN was so successful at what it did and endured so long was cuz it was open to the community, who could publish free community created content online without WotC or Bioware having to take a cut. It wasn't a walled off environment like the one these imbeciles are trying to make.
This is what you get when arrogant idiots who come from a different industry and think they can make an unrelated, but superficially similar industry work the same way as the industry they come from, because they're ALL the same thing, amirite? Except they're not, or they wouldn't still be separate industries DECADES after the video game industry kicked off and started coughing out video game "RPGs" and MMOs while TTRPGs always remained a thing—because they're NOT the same thing.
The fallout when this entire effort implodes and their quasi-MMO platform fails to replace TTRPGs will be GLORIOUS!
Quote from: Fheredin on January 22, 2023, 05:37:34 PM
That's all well and good, but what about this actually changes anything? And this is to say nothing about what upper level Hasbro has been up to, because you know they've got a finger in this.
What it changes is that we know how desperate Hasbro is for their plan to succeed and that their actual goal is to shut down the RPG industry (especially competitor VTTs) outside itself so it can drag everyone into semi-MMO paypig model.
Because while they have clearly been using money from other departments to cover it, between the movie (to say nothing of its marketing and distribution and gearing up the various tie-in products), buying D&D Beyond and buying the VTT material (plus whatever they've spent on development of their actual VTT walled garden)... is already around the revenue of 5e over its entire lifetime (at least half-a-billion dollars).
If OneD&D fails... D&D is DONE. You can't sink years of profits from an IP into an initiative and have it fail without the board/investors shutting the whole department down to reinvest in more profitable divisions. The Hasbro and WotC CEO's would absolutely be out on their asses.
Those are the stakes for the corporate goons... and why failure to achieve the goals of the OGL1.1 by any means necessary is simply not something they will allow.
Right now they're trying a more deceptive weasel-worded approach with 1.2, but their end goals are the same; with empty gestures (the "release the rules under CC-by-4.0" play which is only the material they couldn't actually copyright anyway) and poison pills all around.
Make no mistake... if they are this heavily invested they will go "zero-percent approval tyrant" and push out everything from the OGL1.1 anyway... they'd like to be liked as they attempt to drink the RPG industry dry of its blood to fill Hasbro's overextended coffers, but that's a side bennie they'll drop if it's clearly impossible just like a hungry vampire will eventually drop the pretenses if they aren't luring in the bictim and just take what they want.
If true, then the only language the suits upstairs understand is squeezing their wallets until they scream and are fired by their shareholders. Which means that there should be a full customer ignoring (one could call it a boycott, if they so choose; ;) I choose not to call it so) of ALL retail things Hasbro/WotC: movie, games, action figures, board games, CCG, t-shirts, video games, TTRPGs, lifestyle toasters, silicone rubber scrapers, etc.
Every. Single. Thing.
Don't talk about Hasbro or WotC beyond eye-rolling disinterest. ::) They chose not to exist anymore. They no longer want to offer goods and services to their customers, instead they expect tribute from their supplicants. And the fastest way to make a narcissistic, abusive, wanna-be-idol fall back to earth is apathy.
So ignore everything that gives them money, power, or attention. 8) Hasbro and WotC are dead, 2023. Long live used market D&D.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 22, 2023, 04:40:39 PM
Why would they charge for 'homebrew'? Because they would charge for the non-automation options. They would also charge for the map-making capabilities. I think them calling it homebrew makes more sense as internal communication between internal things, and not necessarily purely exec presentation.
Because they can.
It would make sense to have a cheap entry level that allows character creation and management based on the PHB, but entering your own custom classes and spells be a feature that costs more than the entry level.
Quote from: VisionStorm on January 22, 2023, 06:35:01 PM
As I mentioned in my comment on DnD Shorts' video, if TTRPG gamers and MMO players were interchangeable with each other, and TTRPGs could be replaced by MMOs it would've happened already, cuz MMOs have been a thing for DECADES. As mentioned in the OP, NWNs even tried to do this already—and it was a very successful game, with a very enduring community—yet it STILL didn't replace tabletop. It merely added an extra set of options for a subset of the community that overlapped with TTRPG gamers, but didn't replace TTRPGs, or even became the primary way to play D&D.
This is why all attempts to completely digitalize TTRPGs have failed and will continue to fail. The point of TTRPGs is that they don't have to be digital.
Exactly, and it's frustrating when some chucklehead comes along and tries to fit a square TTRPG peg into a round video game hole.
Go ahead and make a D&D MMO. Make a phone app with the D&D branding and monetize the fuck out of it. These approaches would be vastly superior, and would leave the existing game alone to generate brand interest.
Or, go the WOTC way, and blow up the brand and burn millions of dollars and have nothing to show for it beyond youtube commentators mocking their stupidity.
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 22, 2023, 06:42:15 PM
Quote from: Fheredin on January 22, 2023, 05:37:34 PM
That's all well and good, but what about this actually changes anything? And this is to say nothing about what upper level Hasbro has been up to, because you know they've got a finger in this.
What it changes is that we know how desperate Hasbro is for their plan to succeed and that their actual goal is to shut down the RPG industry (especially competitor VTTs) outside itself so it can drag everyone into semi-MMO paypig model.
Because while they have clearly been using money from other departments to cover it, between the movie (to say nothing of its marketing and distribution and gearing up the various tie-in products), buying D&D Beyond and buying the VTT material (plus whatever they've spent on development of their actual VTT walled garden)... is already around the revenue of 5e over its entire lifetime (at least half-a-billion dollars).
If OneD&D fails... D&D is DONE. You can't sink years of profits from an IP into an initiative and have it fail without the board/investors shutting the whole department down to reinvest in more profitable divisions. The Hasbro and WotC CEO's would absolutely be out on their asses.
Those are the stakes for the corporate goons... and why failure to achieve the goals of the OGL1.1 by any means necessary is simply not something they will allow.
Right now they're trying a more deceptive weasel-worded approach with 1.2, but their end goals are the same; with empty gestures (the "release the rules under CC-by-4.0" play which is only the material they couldn't actually copyright anyway) and poison pills all around.
Make no mistake... if they are this heavily invested they will go "zero-percent approval tyrant" and push out everything from the OGL1.1 anyway... they'd like to be liked as they attempt to drink the RPG industry dry of its blood to fill Hasbro's overextended coffers, but that's a side bennie they'll drop if it's clearly impossible just like a hungry vampire will eventually drop the pretenses if they aren't luring in the bictim and just take what they want.
I think that's a half-truth. It's definitely true this is a cash-grab, but I think the more pointed problem here is that none of the execs who appear to be leading this are actually D&D (or any TTRPG) players. No one who actually plays a tabletop RPG for fun would think this would work. This is a bunch of video game developers taking senior positions in an industry they don't actually understand and sinking the ship because they never bothered to understand it.
Quote from: Fheredin on January 22, 2023, 10:35:58 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 22, 2023, 06:42:15 PM
Quote from: Fheredin on January 22, 2023, 05:37:34 PM
That's all well and good, but what about this actually changes anything? And this is to say nothing about what upper level Hasbro has been up to, because you know they've got a finger in this.
What it changes is that we know how desperate Hasbro is for their plan to succeed and that their actual goal is to shut down the RPG industry (especially competitor VTTs) outside itself so it can drag everyone into semi-MMO paypig model.
Because while they have clearly been using money from other departments to cover it, between the movie (to say nothing of its marketing and distribution and gearing up the various tie-in products), buying D&D Beyond and buying the VTT material (plus whatever they've spent on development of their actual VTT walled garden)... is already around the revenue of 5e over its entire lifetime (at least half-a-billion dollars).
If OneD&D fails... D&D is DONE. You can't sink years of profits from an IP into an initiative and have it fail without the board/investors shutting the whole department down to reinvest in more profitable divisions. The Hasbro and WotC CEO's would absolutely be out on their asses.
Those are the stakes for the corporate goons... and why failure to achieve the goals of the OGL1.1 by any means necessary is simply not something they will allow.
Right now they're trying a more deceptive weasel-worded approach with 1.2, but their end goals are the same; with empty gestures (the "release the rules under CC-by-4.0" play which is only the material they couldn't actually copyright anyway) and poison pills all around.
Make no mistake... if they are this heavily invested they will go "zero-percent approval tyrant" and push out everything from the OGL1.1 anyway... they'd like to be liked as they attempt to drink the RPG industry dry of its blood to fill Hasbro's overextended coffers, but that's a side bennie they'll drop if it's clearly impossible just like a hungry vampire will eventually drop the pretenses if they aren't luring in the bictim and just take what they want.
I think that's a half-truth. It's definitely true this is a cash-grab, but I think the more pointed problem here is that none of the execs who appear to be leading this are actually D&D (or any TTRPG) players. No one who actually plays a tabletop RPG for fun would think this would work. This is a bunch of video game developers taking senior positions in an industry they don't actually understand and sinking the ship because they never bothered to understand it.
More specifically they don't understand the customer. TT gamers who are passionate about the industry WANT to create their own content. They want to tinker with mechanics and find what works best for their table. Take that away and they'll rightly accuse you of trying to destroy the game. Try to charge them extra money for the privilege and they'll go somewhere else.
Sure, there's a subset of players who only know 5e and nothing else (for whatever reason), but even they are starting to break away. WotC might capture and retain a few of them, but ultimately I see this little gamble of theirs failing. If I'm wrong and they find success, great! Good for them. I don't really care because I'll never be a customer. But I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't get some satisfaction from watching them crumble.
Their idea also just runs into hardware limitations. Gamers with the hardware to run their fancy VTT, would have the hardware to run powerful videogames. Many of their existing fans could be in a position to be incapable of giving WOTC money even if they wanted too. Whoops.
As for how its relevant: I would not suggest going the opposed lawsuit direction. If Wizards is willing to burn hundreds of millions on pissing contests, it won't blink twice on spending ones of millions on a lawsuit.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 23, 2023, 01:12:06 AM
Their idea also just runs into hardware limitations. Gamers with the hardware to run their fancy VTT, would have the hardware to run powerful videogames. Many of their existing fans could be in a position to be incapable of giving WOTC money even if they wanted too. Whoops.
As for how its relevant: I would not suggest going the opposed lawsuit direction. If Wizards is willing to burn hundreds of millions on pissing contests, it won't blink twice on spending ones of millions on a lawsuit.
Yes. Never interfere with an enemy when they are in the process of destroying themselves.
Another bit to add to the fire if you will is more weasel-wording that FoundryVTT picked up upon.
The license 1.2 states that by using any of the covered content you agree to be bound by the OGL1.2.
That content includes the SRD5.1 which is currently available under 1.0a. The deauthorization of OGL1.0a and it's statements about allowances for previous content sits outside the 1.2 license proper.
As Foundry points out... as presently written, by having any product using SRD5.1 material in it you "automatically" consent to OGL1.2 with all its restrictions on legal action you can take against WotC (ex. no class actions... if they come at you, no other party like the EFF or larger interested parties is allowed to become involved without you breaching a license you may have never realized you were agreeing to.
Basically, right now the ONLY safe move is to purge anything that even looks like SRD5.1 content (including covered concept stacks) ASAP. If you want to test WotC on deauthorizing the OGL1.0a do it with explicitly SRD3.5 material.
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 23, 2023, 08:21:15 AM
As Foundry points out... as presently written, by having any product using SRD5.1 material in it you "automatically" consent to OGL1.2 with all its restrictions on legal action you can take against WotC (ex. no class actions... if they come at you, no other party like the EFF or larger interested parties is allowed to become involved without you breaching a license you may have never realized you were agreeing to.
I'm no lawyer, but surely this automatic consent thing cannot be legal. "If you sign this agreement giving you a pound, you automatically consent to this other one I have in my pocket where you have to give me a fiver." Clearly that cannot be right.
MAYBE on a going-forward basis so long as it is well-telegraphed in 5.1 SRD. But I cannot believe you could impose something like this retroactively. It would become almost impossible ever to have any legal agreement.
DnDShorts has worked out these last few days that being a reporter is a lot harder than many people think. He had to retract all that stuff he said about not reading the surveys in the next video as all his source said.. no.. they defiantly read them and we regally receive reports based on the feedback... and I think it is in the best interest of everyone that he is doing what he is doing.. as in communicating with the gizmod reporter and having her handle things from now on.
Quote from: Marchand on January 23, 2023, 08:29:19 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 23, 2023, 08:21:15 AM
As Foundry points out... as presently written, by having any product using SRD5.1 material in it you "automatically" consent to OGL1.2 with all its restrictions on legal action you can take against WotC (ex. no class actions... if they come at you, no other party like the EFF or larger interested parties is allowed to become involved without you breaching a license you may have never realized you were agreeing to.
I'm no lawyer, but surely this automatic consent thing cannot be legal. "If you sign this agreement giving you a pound, you automatically consent to this other one I have in my pocket where you have to give me a fiver." Clearly that cannot be right.
MAYBE on a going-forward basis so long as it is well-telegraphed in 5.1 SRD. But I cannot believe you could impose something like this retroactively. It would become almost impossible ever to have any legal agreement.
"Cannot be legal" and "included in a license by a major corporation intending to hurt their competitors" are NOT mutually exclusive.
Foundry calling them out on that "loophole" is essentially telling everyone paying attention that thoss elements as written aren't actually legal and that Hasbro is still playing games with the license and NOT acting in good faith (which should be a surprise to no one).
Quote from: Fheredin on January 22, 2023, 10:35:58 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 22, 2023, 06:42:15 PM
Quote from: Fheredin on January 22, 2023, 05:37:34 PM
That's all well and good, but what about this actually changes anything? And this is to say nothing about what upper level Hasbro has been up to, because you know they've got a finger in this.
What it changes is that we know how desperate Hasbro is for their plan to succeed and that their actual goal is to shut down the RPG industry (especially competitor VTTs) outside itself so it can drag everyone into semi-MMO paypig model.
Because while they have clearly been using money from other departments to cover it, between the movie (to say nothing of its marketing and distribution and gearing up the various tie-in products), buying D&D Beyond and buying the VTT material (plus whatever they've spent on development of their actual VTT walled garden)... is already around the revenue of 5e over its entire lifetime (at least half-a-billion dollars).
If OneD&D fails... D&D is DONE. You can't sink years of profits from an IP into an initiative and have it fail without the board/investors shutting the whole department down to reinvest in more profitable divisions. The Hasbro and WotC CEO's would absolutely be out on their asses.
Those are the stakes for the corporate goons... and why failure to achieve the goals of the OGL1.1 by any means necessary is simply not something they will allow.
Right now they're trying a more deceptive weasel-worded approach with 1.2, but their end goals are the same; with empty gestures (the "release the rules under CC-by-4.0" play which is only the material they couldn't actually copyright anyway) and poison pills all around.
Make no mistake... if they are this heavily invested they will go "zero-percent approval tyrant" and push out everything from the OGL1.1 anyway... they'd like to be liked as they attempt to drink the RPG industry dry of its blood to fill Hasbro's overextended coffers, but that's a side bennie they'll drop if it's clearly impossible just like a hungry vampire will eventually drop the pretenses if they aren't luring in the bictim and just take what they want.
I think that's a half-truth. It's definitely true this is a cash-grab, but I think the more pointed problem here is that none of the execs who appear to be leading this are actually D&D (or any TTRPG) players. No one who actually plays a tabletop RPG for fun would think this would work. This is a bunch of video game developers taking senior positions in an industry they don't actually understand and sinking the ship because they never bothered to understand it.
It won't work. It can't. ::)
Hasbro Executives: "Let's destroy the entire TTRPG hobby and industry! All roleplaying games belong to us now. We'll force all those gamer retards to play our video game with an AI DM Chatbot! What's this nonsense about books and graph paper and dice? What? Who cares about this stupid OGL tabletop game industry? The entire RPG industry belongs to us anyway. No, I don't care if the plebes are mad. We'll just make these stupid gamer punks pay $$$$ through the nose every month. They're mindless idiot consumers, so they'll love it. And the great thing is that this will tie into a social credit score. We'll scour their social media accounts, so if they ever say anything on social media we don't like....we can just nuke their accounts....which means, no D&D for them!" 8)
"And if they don't love it, we'll deplatform these little fucks....and use weaponized lawfare to sue them into bankruptcy. Those little gamer turds owe us their money." >:(
P.S. I'm making a little joke here, because I honestly think that the giant management asset firms that fund Hasbro with ESG investment capital care more about power and control than about money. But I think this still captures the mindset of Hasbro executives. :)
Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 22, 2023, 09:07:31 PMExactly, and it's frustrating when some chucklehead comes along and tries to fit a square TTRPG peg into a round video game hole.
Except WotC has already had success converting M:TG into a digital game with Arena which has been a huge money maker for them. And Gloomhaven also has been a huge success (both as a boardgame and online) and it is basically a DM-less RPG. It looks to me like there is a market for a hybrid RPG/video game.
But there's also the issue that Hasbro wants to regain control of the D&D IP. So even if One D&D is a huge failure, if the result of it is the destruction of the OGL 1.0a, then Hasbro will have succeeded in their primary goal.
And there's always the option for a Two D&D.
Quote from: Effete on January 23, 2023, 12:37:37 AMMore specifically they don't understand the customer. TT gamers who are passionate about the industry WANT to create their own content.
Gamers that want to create their own content are not the primary customers of Hasbro. This has been true since the beginning. The entire RPG industry is built upon selling rules, settings, and adventures. Three things that players could create themselves.
Trying to build a business selling products to people that don't need them will never be a success. I can't blame Hasbro for marketing their products to the people that actually purchase products.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 23, 2023, 09:28:49 AM
Quote from: Effete on January 23, 2023, 12:37:37 AMMore specifically they don't understand the customer. TT gamers who are passionate about the industry WANT to create their own content.
Gamers that want to create their own content are not the primary customers of Hasbro. This has been true since the beginning. The entire RPG industry is built upon selling rules, settings, and adventures. Three things that players could create themselves.
Trying to build a business selling products to people that don't need them will never be a success. I can't blame Hasbro for marketing their products to the people that actually purchase products.
What you're selling is Convenience/Time Saving.
Sure, you can build a bespoke ruleset and try and balance it yourself over the course of weeks or months -or- you can buy this pre-built system and tweak it a little and be able to play in a couple hours.
Sure, you can build your own monsters from scratch at a cost of hours per session to prep them -or- you can buy this book filled with hundreds of monsters to cover everything you'd need.
Sure, you can design your own setting from scratch and fill it with unique NPCs and adventure hooks taking you hours or days of effort -or- you can buy this setting book that's done all that work for you.
Sure, you can make your own adventures and maps, but sometimes you just don't have time or are looking for inspiration.
People make billions providing customers with things they could, in theory, do for themselves. The value is in allowing people to skip the things they don't really want to do so they can get to the things they do.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 23, 2023, 09:28:49 AM
Quote from: Effete on January 23, 2023, 12:37:37 AMMore specifically they don't understand the customer. TT gamers who are passionate about the industry WANT to create their own content.
Gamers that want to create their own content are not the primary customers of Hasbro. This has been true since the beginning. The entire RPG industry is built upon selling rules, settings, and adventures. Three things that players could create themselves.
Trying to build a business selling products to people that don't need them will never be a success. I can't blame Hasbro for marketing their products to the people that actually purchase products.
Good points. We don't need to buy their rules, or their format for playing pretend. We can do all of that, ourselves. We always could.
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 23, 2023, 09:44:02 AM
What you're selling is Convenience/Time Saving.
Sure, you can build a bespoke ruleset and try and balance it yourself over the course of weeks or months -or- you can buy this pre-built system and tweak it a little and be able to play in a couple hours.
Sure, you can build your own monsters from scratch at a cost of hours per session to prep them -or- you can buy this book filled with hundreds of monsters to cover everything you'd need.
Sure, you can design your own setting from scratch and fill it with unique NPCs and adventure hooks taking you hours or days of effort -or- you can buy this setting book that's done all that work for you.
Sure, you can make your own adventures and maps, but sometimes you just don't have time or are looking for inspiration.
People make billions providing customers with things they could, in theory, do for themselves. The value is in allowing people to skip the things they don't really want to do so they can get to the things they do.
Yep. And when a company is in the business of selling a luxury item that people can do themselves, they are moving product, but they are really selling a service. They better keep that in mind, because every notch of convenience that slips out of the equation gets people thinking about doing it themselves.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 23, 2023, 11:03:00 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 23, 2023, 09:44:02 AM
What you're selling is Convenience/Time Saving.
Sure, you can build a bespoke ruleset and try and balance it yourself over the course of weeks or months -or- you can buy this pre-built system and tweak it a little and be able to play in a couple hours.
Sure, you can build your own monsters from scratch at a cost of hours per session to prep them -or- you can buy this book filled with hundreds of monsters to cover everything you'd need.
Sure, you can design your own setting from scratch and fill it with unique NPCs and adventure hooks taking you hours or days of effort -or- you can buy this setting book that's done all that work for you.
Sure, you can make your own adventures and maps, but sometimes you just don't have time or are looking for inspiration.
People make billions providing customers with things they could, in theory, do for themselves. The value is in allowing people to skip the things they don't really want to do so they can get to the things they do.
Yep. And when a company is in the business of selling a luxury item that people can do themselves, they are moving product, but they are really selling a service. They better keep that in mind, because every notch of convenience that slips out of the equation gets people thinking about doing it themselves.
There's a reason 2/3 of my GM's Guide is pre-built monsters and a good 1/4 is tools to help new GM's build their own settings and adventures (using completely random rolls if they want to... though I make the point that they're really intended more to provide a list of inspirations and to only bother rolling if nothing appeals to you). Technically the only hard mechanics you NEED out of my GM's Guide are specific terrain rules, the affliction and monster building rules and the rewards rules... IF you're an experienced GM who knows how to build your own settings and wants to make up their own monsters/diseases/curses.
But, for some, at the time unknown, reason I had decided to design my GM's Guide around providing advice and tools for new inexperienced GMs despite the fact that, with D&D as the gateway game, few GMs coming to a different system would really NEED such tools as the DMG would have been their primer on such things. Now, as the OGL burns on its funeral pyre and Hasbro looks to be abandoning the concept of homebrew in pushing its VTT I continue to think some higher power may have been guiding my seemingly nonsensical at the time design decisions. Maybe I'm just lucky... maybe I'll screw it up in the 11th hour yet, but regardless, I've got a whole bunch of tools for the convenience of new GMs already in place.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 23, 2023, 09:20:05 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 22, 2023, 09:07:31 PMExactly, and it's frustrating when some chucklehead comes along and tries to fit a square TTRPG peg into a round video game hole.
Except WotC has already had success converting M:TG into a digital game with Arena which has been a huge money maker for them. And Gloomhaven also has been a huge success (both as a boardgame and online) and it is basically a DM-less RPG. It looks to me like there is a market for a hybrid RPG/video game.
Yes, but the hardcopy versions of Gloomhaven and Magic still exist and are popular.
WOTC could make a digital hybrid thingamajoo of D&D, and not have to touch the OGL. But they are, because they want to
replace TTD&D, not supplement it.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 24, 2023, 06:21:16 AMYes, but the hardcopy versions of Gloomhaven and Magic still exist and are popular.
WOTC could make a digital hybrid thingamajoo of D&D, and not have to touch the OGL. But they are, because they want to replace TTD&D, not supplement it.
Deauthorizing the OGL is necessary for Hasbro to regain control of their D&D IP. This is equally true for their tabletop version as well as any potential VTT version.
I'm just surprised that Hasbro didn't do the deauthorization process separately from rolling out the VTT and a new game version.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 24, 2023, 09:05:49 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 24, 2023, 06:21:16 AMYes, but the hardcopy versions of Gloomhaven and Magic still exist and are popular.
WOTC could make a digital hybrid thingamajoo of D&D, and not have to touch the OGL. But they are, because they want to replace TTD&D, not supplement it.
Deauthorizing the OGL is necessary for Hasbro to regain control of their D&D IP. This is equally true for their tabletop version as well as any potential VTT version.
I'm just surprised that Hasbro didn't do the deauthorization process separately from rolling out the VTT and a new game version.
You keep saying this, they NEVER lost control of their IP, the OGL explicilty says they have it and it even grants them way more "copyright" than the law.
You know what THEY consider their IP? The stuff they could and did Trademark.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 24, 2023, 11:49:01 AM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 24, 2023, 09:05:49 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 24, 2023, 06:21:16 AMYes, but the hardcopy versions of Gloomhaven and Magic still exist and are popular.
WOTC could make a digital hybrid thingamajoo of D&D, and not have to touch the OGL. But they are, because they want to replace TTD&D, not supplement it.
Deauthorizing the OGL is necessary for Hasbro to regain control of their D&D IP. This is equally true for their tabletop version as well as any potential VTT version.
I'm just surprised that Hasbro didn't do the deauthorization process separately from rolling out the VTT and a new game version.
You keep saying this, they NEVER lost control of their IP, the OGL explicilty says they have it and it even grants them way more "copyright" than the law.
You know what THEY consider their IP? The stuff they could and did Trademark.
This is just being pedantic on your part.
By "reclaim their IP" what the non-lawyers colloquially mean is "eliminate the open license that allows third parties to use entire concept stacks in their entirety."
The main thing they're hoping to prevent is the ability of viable VTT modules using elements close enough to their IP to make an alternate VTT competitive. They think if VTT's have to choose between having D&D available on their system and animated magic missiles they can get gamers (and remember tabletop and video gamers are all the same to the head of WotC's digital team) to play on the platform that offers both together.
A big part of it is that the people behind these decisions really don't understand the market they're trying to capture... they're just importing their experiences from XBox and Farmville gatcha games with the assumption that a gamer is a gamer is a gamer and that the exact same models of revenue capture will work on this group of gamers.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 23, 2023, 09:28:49 AM
Quote from: Effete on January 23, 2023, 12:37:37 AMMore specifically they don't understand the customer. TT gamers who are passionate about the industry WANT to create their own content.
Gamers that want to create their own content are not the primary customers of Hasbro. This has been true since the beginning. The entire RPG industry is built upon selling rules, settings, and adventures. Three things that players could create themselves.
Trying to build a business selling products to people that don't need them will never be a success. I can't blame Hasbro for marketing their products to the people that actually purchase products.
Of course. I'm not blaming them for trying to make money either. I said as much in another post. If this turns into a success for them, great! No skin off my back since I won't be a customer.
But you cut half my post off, removing the context, and go off on a tangent. My point wasn't that gamers don't want easily referencable material, it was that they want the ability to tweek it to their liking. WotC new business model seems to impose strict rules-adherence and a paywall to add custom content. Nothing wrong with that, but it won't capture the TT gamer... it's going for the Cheeto-fingered video gamer market. Because that's exactly what it would be: a video game.
Quote from: Opaopajr on January 22, 2023, 07:56:21 PMlifestyle toasters, silicone rubber scrapers, etc.
You'll have to pry my matching Elminster toaster & Drizzt rubber scraper from my cold dead hands!!
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 23, 2023, 12:20:29 PMI've got a whole bunch of tools for the convenience of new GMs already in place.
Those are valuable for experienced GMs as well.
Particularly in how to GM your game instead of any generic RPG.
I personally enjoy game-specific GM advice because Paranoia isn't RuneQuest which isn't Cthulhu which isn't Traveller and although all 4 are RPGs and there's lots of baseline advice for GMing that covers all 4, there's a deep need for specific GM tools and advice on how to shine when running a specific RPG or setting.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 23, 2023, 01:12:06 AMAs for how its relevant: I would not suggest going the opposed lawsuit direction. If Wizards is willing to burn hundreds of millions on pissing contests, it won't blink twice on spending ones of millions on a lawsuit.
Agreed...although how do we know that WotC/Hasbro has spent hundreds of millions? That's a monstrous amount of cash for a tiny pond industry.
Also, if they did spend that money on their magical AI VTT fantasy metaverse, why worry about the OGL 1.0 because even Paizo isn't capable of spending that kind of money to horn in on their VTT dominance?
Quote from: Spinachcat on January 25, 2023, 03:25:26 AM
Quote from: Opaopajr on January 22, 2023, 07:56:21 PMlifestyle toasters, silicone rubber scrapers, etc.
You'll have to pry my matching Elminster toaster & Drizzt rubber scraper from my cold dead hands!!
;D If the Oven Mitts of Vecna are wrong, I don't want to be right.
Quote from: Spinachcat on January 25, 2023, 03:40:00 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 23, 2023, 01:12:06 AMAs for how its relevant: I would not suggest going the opposed lawsuit direction. If Wizards is willing to burn hundreds of millions on pissing contests, it won't blink twice on spending ones of millions on a lawsuit.
Agreed...although how do we know that WotC/Hasbro has spent hundreds of millions? That's a monstrous amount of cash for a tiny pond industry.
WotC has already spent ~$150 millions to buy D&D Beyond - allegedly just to bury it. Then, if the insider info given to D&D Shorts is to be believed, WotC already spent hundreds of millions to prop up their digital initiative. Even if this info is incorrect, they already burned up a year of earnings to bury D&D Beyond - pissing off of their customers BIG TIME as a side effect.
Quote from: Spinachcat on January 25, 2023, 03:40:00 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 23, 2023, 01:12:06 AMAs for how its relevant: I would not suggest going the opposed lawsuit direction. If Wizards is willing to burn hundreds of millions on pissing contests, it won't blink twice on spending ones of millions on a lawsuit.
Agreed...although how do we know that WotC/Hasbro has spent hundreds of millions? That's a monstrous amount of cash for a tiny pond industry.
Also, if they did spend that money on their magical AI VTT fantasy metaverse, why worry about the OGL 1.0 because even Paizo isn't capable of spending that kind of money to horn in on their VTT dominance?
As mentioned, DnDBeyond was $150 million.
Per the leaks, they think they can grow their VTT to be a $500 million per year property (which sounds a lot like a clueless exec just took their $100-150 million profits and multiplied it by Cynthia Williams' "only 20% of the player base buys things" to arrive at a figure... but I never underestimate the stupidity of execs who are chasing money).
The biggest threat they see is the ability of third parties to make better content than they do. So the new OGL and VTT policy are all about preemptively shutting down competition so if you want to game at all it has to be on the gatcha game VTT.
It's basically the same tactic all the big boys (Google, Microsoft) use of buying out or lawfaring any potential small competitor into oblivion before their better product can get any traction.
Remember when WotC mocked the idea of an MMO being a better experience than face to face play? Pepperidge Farms remembers;
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/41/73/06/417306379b6dafca85287167a6caf73e--free-to-play-nerd-cave.jpg)
Would be interesting if Shorts didnt fake information for ratings.