Quote from: DrewPersonally I love the insanity rules. They mesh very well with the paucity clear cut heroes in the Old World-- anyone who spends enough time fighting the-horrors-that-should-not-be ends up effected to some extent.

It's also worth noting that some disorders are far more crippling than others, and should be allocated on whether or not they are appropriate for both the character and the circumstances in which they manifest. Alcoholism, kleptomania and specific phobias are all debilitating, but they certainly don't make the character unplayable.

I almost consider them to be badges of honour.

so does my group.  nothing is more "grim & perilous" than half your adventuring party all whacked out with disorders and drug addictions (madman's cap, anyone?)  ymmv, of course, but we LOVE it.

Quote from: beeberso does my group.  nothing is more "grim & perilous" than half your adventuring party all whacked out with disorders and drug addictions (madman's cap, anyone?)  ymmv, of course, but we LOVE it.

I'm not against being "whacked out" (but you don't need rules for that). I'm against the idea that as a hero in a "grim & perilous" world you can be literally frightened out of your mind by blood, gore and nasty creatures. Doesn't seem very heroic to me. Ymmv, of course.

Quote from: beeberso does my group.  nothing is more "grim & perilous" than half your adventuring party all whacked out with disorders and drug addictions (madman's cap, anyone?)  ymmv, of course, but we LOVE it.

Absoloutely. As in reality many of the really tough old bastards in Warhammer are damaged goods, whether it be through crits, mental imbalance or the taint of the enemy.

It's still an heroic game. It's just that the consequences of heroism are much steeper than in your standard fantasy setting.

D&D: You faced the foul ghouls in their lair and saved the town! Huzzah!

WFRPG: You faced the foul ghouls in their lair, and despite having wet yourself you overcame the fear and prevailed. You won't sleep soundly for a long time to come and your knee will never be the same, but the town has been saved! Triple huzzah!

The possibility of insanity, gut-wrenching terror, and maiming make the character all the more heroic when he succeeds. Heroism doesn't come from your successes, it comes from the obstacles in your path along the way.

QuoteHeroism doesn't come from your successes, it comes from the obstacles in your path along the way.

Dear God in heaven do I wish more gamers fucking understood this.

Quote from: James McMurrayD&D: You faced the foul ghouls in their lair and saved the town! Huzzah!

WFRPG: You faced the foul ghouls in their lair, and despite having wet yourself you overcame the fear and prevailed. You won't sleep soundly for a long time to come and your knee will never be the same, but the town has been saved! Triple huzzah!

But these foul ghouls they should not frighten you that much because you live in a Fantasy world. In a world permeated by magic. They should be just another enemy to fight. You, as a person living in that world, should expect to see undeads, demons or any supernatural creatures. In a horror game you are frightened by them because they do not belong in your world and because it's part of the genre.
But I do understand your point of view and so have to conclude and accept that WFRP is just not for me. For me the setting is broken. Which is actually the point of this thread.

Great random generators btw!

Quote from: YsbrydBut these foul ghouls they should not frighten you that much because you live in a Fantasy world. In a world permeated by magic. They should be just another enemy to fight. You, as a person living in that world, should expect to see undeads, demons or any supernatural creatures. In a horror game you are frightened by them because they do not belong in your world and because it's part of the genre.
But I do understand your point of view and so have to conclude and accept that WFRP is just not for me. For me the setting is broken. Which is actually the point of this thread.

Great random generators btw!

Dude, go read some shit about medieval culture.  Seriously.  It doesn't work that way.

Quote from: J ArcaneDude, go read some shit about medieval culture.  Seriously.  It doesn't work that way.

Sorry, what? :confused:

Where did I write anything about medieval culture? I was talking about a fantasy game not a medieval game. And what "doesn't work that way"? If it "doesn't work that way", why is WFRP the only fantasy game I know of with an insanity rule?
Not meant as an attack but I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.
And I hope you are not trying to tell me that I'm wrong in not liking a certain game because that would be a bit silly, wouldn't it.

Medieval cultures believed in all kinds of fantastical shit.  And they were piss-fucking scared of pretty much all of it, 'cause that shit ain't natural.  

You're applying a modernized mindset od desensitization to a period and type of culture where it does not apply.

It's a load of weak, lazy thinking, and misses the entire point and feel of the gameworld.

Quote from: J ArcaneMedieval cultures believed in all kinds of fantastical shit.  And they were piss-fucking scared of pretty much all of it, 'cause that shit ain't natural.  

You're applying a modernized mindset od desensitization to a period and type of culture where it does not apply.

It's a load of weak, lazy thinking, and misses the entire point and feel of the gameworld.

Yes, if medieval knights would have fought against ghouls they could have actually lost their minds. That's exactly my point. But in a fantasy world that "shit" IS natural, so to speak. As are dwarfs, elves, dragons, ... That's why IMHO "fantasy" knights should not lose their minds when they fight ghouls.

As to your last point. This is a thread about PERSONAL dislikes. So, please stop lecturing me in this condescending manner.  Thanks.

Quote from: Cold Blooded GamesI understand what you are saying but its fuzzy design to leave that kind of thing to interpretation. And besides 6 strength is still way to low a damage modifier for a 20 foot giant. Stats should be about proper scale; they are after all attempting to represent and model a physical reality.

Personally I like the freedom in the way the rules were structured.  While I can understand the point.  I think it comes from to many people that (not saying this is your case) making some stupid assumption that WFRP is D20.  They come into expecting all the rules to be ground out in front of them in massive detail.  WFRP though is a much more free form game.  Less rules overall, less hard details of how the rules must work in specific situations.

Now when it comes to the giant with 6 strength.  That strength bonus represents how much damage can be applied in battle.  6 is a rather significant number specially if you consider a giants attacks are harder to defend against and all of them are impact, plus strike might blow etc....  They average around 14 damage per hit.  That's enough to kill an average NPC in one shot.  It all rather balances out quite nicely.  It still may be a deal breaker for you and that's fine.  But the fact is the rules work rather well in game play.  If you issolate them then they seem broken.  But overall it's a fantastic flowing system.

QuoteThat is why D20 modern is taking some flak in this thread also with the way it handles handgun damage. For me if one bullet from a lowly .22 handgun to the head does not have at least the potential however small of killing a non-supernatural human character then then design is broken as far as I am concerned because it does not accurately mirror reality. When people can get shot point blank in the head with a .45 slug and absorb it with the truck full of hit points they've amassed then you've crossed over into Cartoon land.

I agree with what your saying in this point.  But that's not how Hit Points are modeled in D20.  I think that they way they are modeled doesn't work well.  But for what they are, they are not a 1=1 representation of how much damage alone a person can take.  They incorporate luck and other factors as well.  So in most cases a point blank shot to the head would be considered a coup-de-grace and usually death.  Same as slitting a sleeping persons throat.  The hit points insinuate that you've managed to luckily move just enough at the last minute that the bullet grazed you.  If there is a to-hit-roll involved then hit points come into effect and luck plays a factor.

Quote from: YsbrydBut these foul ghouls they should not frighten you that much because you live in a Fantasy world. In a world permeated by magic. They should be just another enemy to fight. You, as a person living in that world, should expect to see undeads, demons or any supernatural creatures. In a horror game you are frightened by them because they do not belong in your world and because it's part of the genre.
But I do understand your point of view and so have to conclude and accept that WFRP is just not for me. For me the setting is broken. Which is actually the point of this thread.

Great random generators btw!

You are clearly demonstrating that you don't understand what the world is about.  While the average person believes in undead, monsters and everything else.  They never expect to see them face on, green skins and in worse case situations beastmen or mutants, maybe.  That's the same for PC's they start out in this world as normal people that start into a life of adventure.  That's when they start to run into the horrors and that's what can lead to their insanity.  Proof that the horrors are real.  Yet inspite of that they keep pushing on.

Quote from: kryystYou are clearly demonstrating that you don't understand what the world is about.  While the average person believes in undead, monsters and everything else.  They never expect to see them face on, green skins and in worse case situations beastmen or mutants, maybe.  That's the same for PC's they start out in this world as normal people that start into a life of adventure.  That's when they start to run into the horrors and that's what can lead to their insanity.  Proof that the horrors are real.  Yet inspite of that they keep pushing on.

And how is that different from most other fantasy games? Do little, innocent hobbits go insane when they see a Nazgul? No. Do they expect to ever meet one? No. Going insane is not part of the Fantasy genre. When I accept to play in a Fantasy RPG I do not expect to have to deal with insanity. (And when I post on an internet forum I do not expect the Spanish Inquisition )
I do know what the world of Warhammer is about and I know what the rules try to achieve but I (ME, MYSELF) don't like it. OK? I don't want to play in that world. And I don't like the concept of insanity rules OUTSIDE of horror games. The concept seems off. TO ME. In a fantasy game, I want to die a heroic death, not go insane. Therefore, I already acknowledged that WHFRP is not for ME. Therefore I didn't like to play in that setting. Which is the point of this thread. What else can I do? :confused:
Could we PLEASE move on now?

I think it is just fine that you don't want horror/insanity rules in your fantasy and you don't want to play WFRP. Fine.

I have to point out that something very much like horror or insanity is every bit a part of Tolkien. After all one interpretation is that Frodo and Bilbo were so tainted and torn and scared and driven to a certain type of insanity that they really needed to go to the undying lands.

Not to mention that a big part of the story is overcoming your fears to do the right thing.

I'm not yelling, I'm not even breathing heavy, if you disagree with me I'm alright. I just had to comment. I'm weird that way.

Quote from: YsbrydBut these foul ghouls they should not frighten you that much because you live in a Fantasy world. In a world permeated by magic. They should be just another enemy to fight. You, as a person living in that world, should expect to see undeads, demons or any supernatural creatures. In a horror game you are frightened by them because they do not belong in your world and because it's part of the genre.

Guns, grenades, tanks, and their ability to spray you with another man's intestines are all part of our world's genre. And yet we still have countless numbers of brave men and women who go to war and come back as irrevocably scarred heroes. There's a difference between knowing something is real and facing it down in a life or death situation.
 

QuoteBut I do understand your point of view and so have to conclude and accept that WFRP is just not for me. For me the setting is broken. Which is actually the point of this thread.

Can't fault you there.

QuoteGreat random generators btw!

Thanks!