Quote from: Caesar SlaadD20 Modern, Nonlethal damage and autofire rules

The nonlethal rules squeak by because most people don't realize what they are and assume it's the same in D&D.

Thanks. I house ruled and just amped it up to 25.

Quote from: Cold Blooded GamesThanks. I house ruled and just amped it up to 25.

Heh. That's one way of dealing with it, to be sure.

Quick question-- does anyone ever make it to Giant Slayer in your campaigns?

Quote from: NicephorusThe nonlethal rules squeak by because most people don't realize what they are and assume it's the same in D&D.

Including some authors, it appears.

Read the sand slave description in the menace manual. :cool:

Quote from: Cold Blooded GamesThe Warhammer strength stat. A well developed human can reach the 7 strength stat of a giant. WTF!!! There's no proper proportioning or scale there whatsover. A 9 foot, muscle bound Ogre, I know lets give a strength of 4 the same as that spindly Elf - bad design on the most basic level.

I understand that the purpose of the thread isn't to defend systems.  But that strength stat relevant to the size of the creature and the STR bonus for damage is about how much strength gets applied to damage.  It actually works really well in Warhammer and gives you different results depending on how you want your story to work.

The literal sense you have humans of near Hurculean strength capable of being as strong as a giant.  Making PC's capable of being legendary characters of epic proportions.

Or you can take it the more natural way and compare it to the being applying the strength.  For example a 150lb human with strength 30 wouldn't need to make a strength check to life something weight 150lbs.  That's pretty typical that most average people can lift something weight up to their own body weight.  I'm not talking over their head, but certainly flipping it up to your shoulders no problem.  Same with our 500lb giant that can easily lift a 500lb object onto it's shoulders with no need to roll.  But our human of 30 strength would certainly need to roll it.   Our giant on the other hand wouldn't need to make a strength check until it hit possibly 700-800 lbs.

Quote from: kryystI understand that the purpose of the thread isn't to defend systems.

...but you knew it was coming...

Warhammer FRP. I played this game ages ago so my memory of it is a bit hazy. But I clearly remember that it had some kind of sanity/insanity rule (a bit like CoC). And I very, very clearly remember having long fights about this with the GM to the point that I should have been asked to leave. But I was his only player, so ...

I thought (and I still think) that a sanity rule in a Fantasy world is a stupid idea, especially for a world like Warhammer. If you are a badass fighter in "a grim world of perilous adventure", you expect to see and witness horrible things. If your band of tough hombres sees a walking skeleton you are supposed to crack jokes and not go: "Oh my! Do you see that? That is horrible. Horrible!"
"I say! I think I will have nightmares."
That is so NOT Warhammer.

Sanity rules outside of horror games: Bad idea.

D20 Modern (or any variant...besides CoC) handgun rules. It doesn't make sense that handguns/machineguns/bazookas are not at all scary to any group of adventurers.

So I had to add the Massive damage rules from CoC D20 to all my modern d20 games, and be an asshole with old fashioned coup de grace (Instant death, or instant -9 {or -(Con-1)} HP with a saving throw).

Quote from: KrakaJakD20 Modern (or any variant...besides CoC) handgun rules. It doesn't make sense that handguns/machineguns/bazookas are not at all scary to any group of adventurers.

So I had to add the Massive damage rules from CoC D20 to all my modern d20 games, and be an asshole with old fashioned coup de grace (Instant death, or instant -9 {or -(Con-1)} HP with a saving throw).

Really, the only difference is where the massive damage threshold is set.

I think making MDT = Con (as in D20 modern) is too generous and makes con too important. MDT = 10 is about right for CoC, but might be too gritty for some games. I personally split the difference and go 10+(Con mod).

Quote from: YsbrydWarhammer FRP. I played this game ages ago so my memory of it is a bit hazy. But I clearly remember that it had some kind of sanity/insanity rule (a bit like CoC). And I very, very clearly remember having long fights about this with the GM to the point that I should have been asked to leave. But I was his only player, so ...

I thought (and I still think) that a sanity rule in a Fantasy world is a stupid idea, especially for a world like Warhammer. If you are a badass fighter in "a grim world of perilous adventure", you expect to see and witness horrible things. If your band of tough hombres sees a walking skeleton you are supposed to crack jokes and not go: "Oh my! Do you see that? That is horrible. Horrible!"
"I say! I think I will have nightmares."
That is so NOT Warhammer.

Sanity rules outside of horror games: Bad idea.

I like Sanity rules in general for WFRP, but it was horribly implemented.  I think it has its place - WFRP is, in tone, somewhere between D&D and CoC - but, all things considered, characters should hopefully not be going insane at quite that rate.

As written, though, it's a bear to deal with.  I mean, every single critical hit gives a character an insanity point, lethal or not.  Early wizards get an insanity point 1 out of 6 times they try to cast a spell.  Hell, PCs in my game would have gone insane after the first adventure if I did that.

To top it off, the insanities are generally crippling burdens, excepting maybe your average phobias.

-O

Quote from: kryystI understand that the purpose of the thread isn't to defend systems.  But that strength stat relevant to the size of the creature and the STR bonus for damage is about how much strength gets applied to damage.  It actually works really well in Warhammer and gives you different results depending on how you want your story to work.

The literal sense you have humans of near Hurculean strength capable of being as strong as a giant.  Making PC's capable of being legendary characters of epic proportions.

Or you can take it the more natural way and compare it to the being applying the strength.  For example a 150lb human with strength 30 wouldn't need to make a strength check to life something weight 150lbs.  That's pretty typical that most average people can lift something weight up to their own body weight.  I'm not talking over their head, but certainly flipping it up to your shoulders no problem.  Same with our 500lb giant that can easily lift a 500lb object onto it's shoulders with no need to roll.  But our human of 30 strength would certainly need to roll it.   Our giant on the other hand wouldn't need to make a strength check until it hit possibly 700-800 lbs.

I understand what you are saying but its fuzzy design to leave that kind of thing to interpretation. And besides 6 strength is still way to low a damage modifier for a 20 foot giant. Stats should be about proper scale; they are after all attempting to represent and model a physical reality.

That is why D20 modern is taking some flak in this thread also with the way it handles handgun damage. For me if one bullet from a lowly .22 handgun to the head does not have at least the potential however small of killing a non-supernatural human character then then design is broken as far as I am concerned because it does not accurately mirror reality. When people can get shot point blank in the head with a .45 slug and absorb it with the truck full of hit points they've amassed then you've crossed over into Cartoon land.

Quote from: YsbrydWarhammer FRP. I played this game ages ago so my memory of it is a bit hazy. But I clearly remember that it had some kind of sanity/insanity rule (a bit like CoC). And I very, very clearly remember having long fights about this with the GM to the point that I should have been asked to leave. But I was his only player, so ...

I thought (and I still think) that a sanity rule in a Fantasy world is a stupid idea, especially for a world like Warhammer. If you are a badass fighter in "a grim world of perilous adventure", you expect to see and witness horrible things. If your band of tough hombres sees a walking skeleton you are supposed to crack jokes and not go: "Oh my! Do you see that? That is horrible. Horrible!"
"I say! I think I will have nightmares."
That is so NOT Warhammer.

Sanity rules outside of horror games: Bad idea.

I'd have to agree that WHFRP sanity rules are insane, but still like them for fantasy RPGs you just don't use them unless facing something of Cthulhuic proportions that can get inside your mind.  That or reading the dread 1040 Schedule SE instructions, horror I tell you, pure horror.

Quote from: obrynI like Sanity rules in general for WFRP, but it was horribly implemented.  I think it has its place - WFRP is, in tone, somewhere between D&D and CoC - but, all things considered, characters should hopefully not be going insane at quite that rate.

As written, though, it's a bear to deal with.  I mean, every single critical hit gives a character an insanity point, lethal or not.  Early wizards get an insanity point 1 out of 6 times they try to cast a spell.  Hell, PCs in my game would have gone insane after the first adventure if I did that.

To top it off, the insanities are generally crippling burdens, excepting maybe your average phobias.

-O

Personally I love the insanity rules. They mesh very well with the paucity clear cut heroes in the Old World-- anyone who spends enough time fighting the-horrors-that-should-not-be ends up effected to some extent.

It's also worth noting that some disorders are far more crippling than others, and should be allocated on whether or not they are appropriate for both the character and the circumstances in which they manifest. Alcoholism, kleptomania and specific phobias are all debilitating, but they certainly don't make the character unplayable.

I almost consider them to be badges of honour.

Quote from: Cold Blooded GamesThat is why D20 modern is taking some flak in this thread also with the way it handles handgun damage. For me if one bullet from a lowly .22 handgun to the head does not have at least the potential however small of killing a non-supernatural human character then then design is broken as far as I am concerned because it does not accurately mirror reality. When people can get shot point blank in the head with a .45 slug and absorb it with the truck full of hit points they've amassed then you've crossed over into Cartoon land.

You appear to have misunderstood the concept of a hit point.

Quote from: James McMurrayYou appear to have misunderstood the concept of a hit point.

I was thinking the same thing.

-O