Quote from: Theory of Games on January 29, 2021, 09:04:58 PM
Because white men are that ULTIMATE EVIL.

I'm a civic nationalist, so I'm hoping for multi-racial "white supremacists" of both genders to become the "ultimate evil" in the quaking hearts of SJWs everywhere as they shit themselves in panic.

But whatever happens, I look good in a black hat.

Quote from: Theory of Games on January 29, 2021, 09:04:58 PM
The greater hobby question is: Do YOU want that?

I want WotC to destroy itself and I'm cool with D&D being destroyed too by the SJW idiot fest. I don't care how that's achieved as long as WotC collapses under the weight of its own stupidity.

It doesn't even matter if OSR games get "banned" from the hobby. As long as printers exist, you can introduce a table of deplorables to non-political gaming and there's always some people who enjoy what the OSR offers.

Quote from: Spinachcat on January 31, 2021, 06:11:23 PM
It doesn't even matter if OSR games get "banned" from the hobby. As long as printers exist, you can introduce a table of deplorables to non-political gaming and there's always some people who enjoy what the OSR offers.

  Given current trends, I think non-Official/Progressive games may be best served by going 'underground' for a while--keep it to small circles of friends and the sympathetically minded, so folks don't call down cancellation strikes on you for Gaming Wrong in Public.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 31, 2021, 05:03:57 PM
That said, I think there is one way in which OSR has wound up on the "conservative" side of modern debates by default: OSR is all about preserving a specific type of entertainment experience for its own sake, without needing any kind of advocacy message -- even a conservatively agreeable one -- to be embedded in it to call it "worthwhile".

The New School seems to me very much about the idea that a game has to be about some important real-world topic to be worthy of respect and emotional investment, and while in principle the topic itself could be anything, in practice, this perspective on the world lines up so precisely with the whole "the personal is political / everything is political" stance of SJ philosophy that it's unsurprising most of those who approach game design this way do so with SJ planks in mind.

Politics aside, I don't think that there is any single "Old School" or "New School". New School includes narrow topic-specific games like Apocalypse World and Fiasco, but it also includes generic systems like Fate Core.

Quote from: jhkim on January 31, 2021, 09:52:05 PM
Politics aside, I don't think that there is any single "Old School" or "New School". New School includes narrow topic-specific games like Apocalypse World and Fiasco, but it also includes generic systems like Fate Core.

  I'd split the difference. There's definitely an "Old School" movement, although some of its boundaries get a bit fuzzy at times. "New School," by contrast, is meaningless beyond 'not Old School.'

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 01, 2021, 07:25:54 AM

Quote from: jhkim on January 31, 2021, 09:52:05 PM
Politics aside, I don't think that there is any single "Old School" or "New School". New School includes narrow topic-specific games like Apocalypse World and Fiasco, but it also includes generic systems like Fate Core.

  I'd split the difference. There's definitely an "Old School" movement, although some of its boundaries get a bit fuzzy at times. "New School," by contrast, is meaningless beyond 'not Old School.'

I'd say there's an OSR movement, but it doesn't cover everything that is "Old School". It seems wrong to me to call stuff I played in 1981 as "New School". RPGs have had a lot of variety since very early on.

Quote from: jhkim on January 31, 2021, 09:52:05 PMPolitics aside, I don't think that there is any single "Old School" or "New School". New School includes narrow topic-specific games like Apocalypse World and Fiasco, but it also includes generic systems like Fate Core.

Fair point, but I would argue that in its own way, the entire design approach for FATE as a system rests on certain assumptions more common to what I've called the "New School" (stipulating here that all such retroactively assigned generalizations will have exceptions, outliers and oddities) than to its predecessors:

- The emphasis on a character's core abilities (aspects) as unique personal descriptors rather than impersonal numerical scores, whose game effectiveness relies not on straightforward higher-vs.-lower values (all aspects give only a flat +2 bonus when invoked) but on the frequency with which they can be justified as applicable, which is typically reliant on the player's verbal cleverness.

- The quantification of character power resources (fate points) not as an "internal" resource managed in theory by the character for primarily tactical reasons (e.g. hit points, fatigue points, mana points, willpower points, spells, ammunition etc.), but as an "external" resource explicitly deployed by the player for primarily dramatic reasons; all FATE games rely on a player deliberately allowing or even seeking out things that will harm, inconvenience or disadvantage his character precisely so that he can have the fate points he needs to succeed in the challenges and conflicts he really wants to win.

- The structuring of conflict not around long lists of established tactical options but around extremely generic action types (attack, block, maneuver) the effectiveness of which, again, depends not on analyzing permutations for the best option but on verbal cleverness in justifying applicability.

- The deliberate limiting of numerical quantification, when used, to the absolute minimum of single-digit addition and subtraction and nothing else, to the degree that even the standardized randomizer ranges only from -4 to +4.

To me these features highlight the design approach of the New School: the emphasis on verbal ability, fluidity and improvisation over mathematical ability, standardization and memorization. This in itself has no necessarily political dimension, but when such dimensions are overlaid upon the games thus produced, I don't think it's entirely arbitrary which philosophy finds which approach more congenial.

Quote from: jhkim on February 01, 2021, 10:45:24 AMI'd say there's an OSR movement, but it doesn't cover everything that is "Old School". It seems wrong to me to call stuff I played in 1981 as "New School". RPGs have had a lot of variety since very early on.

Yeah, by 1983 you had Champions with full point build characters and personality mechanics as well as James Bond 007 which gave players point that they could specifically use to change aspects of the game world. Both things that are considered "New School" today.

But I've always rejected the idea that D&D 3e was a "New School" game when it was nothing but a cleaned up version of D&D 2e. Everything the OSR complained about 3e could be found in 2e from point builds to feats and skills (WP and NWP).

Quote from: Theory of Games on January 29, 2021, 09:04:58 PM
I see D&D changing again. From the 3e BS that transformed the game, to something closer to FATE. DIY classes and races. 6e COULD BE a fully freeform game where players make characters from pure imagination, with ability bonuses being WTF.

Um... news flash... But there was an article in Dragon wayyyyyy back on a freeform system of creating characters for BX, and 2e D&D had the freeform class system in the core books.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on January 30, 2021, 07:05:32 AM
Also: and that's very important thing. Lots of people around seems to be somehow pained there are multiple editions.

While in comics or films, retcons are sort of destroying story, destroying continuation - I mean in terms of DC and Marvel it doesn't matter because continuity of their worlds was gangraped multiple times each 2 years since 60s, but in other situations it can be annoying. But with RPG - it doesn't matter. It fucking doesn't matter.

1: I think for some the problem with multiple editions past 2e is that the changes are too large. Before that the differences from AD&D to 2e were not huge. And the transitions from O to B to BX to BECMI were also not so large as to put some fans off. On the flip side Gamma World has not had a consistent setting or rules ever from edition to edition.

It is not so much that people dont like new editions. They hate obvious cash grabs trying to milk the customer base. Or changes so extensive its barely recognizable. This was 4es problem. Its not D&D.

2: The retcon disease did not start till DC did Crisis. And even after that things were still overall the same. But then DC got the "Crisis Disease" and so far theres no cure in sight and the patient is starting to look terminal. Marvel was for a loooooong time fairly stable. You just got big uphevals to individuals or on rare occasion larger events. But nothing totally world changing. That changed in the 2000s. But Marvel has been self destructing with its feminist agenda and then SJW agenda disease and its well past terminal at this point.

QuoteThe only way I could see this happening is if there was some sort of PDF generation app. You load the app and start selecting options: race+class or race-as-class, vancian magic or spell points, hit points or wound levels, pick which races and classes you want, how historical your game world is, gold standard or silver standard, alignment or nah, etc. Then you click the button and it generates a pdf rulebook that includes every option you picked and none that you didn't. This way every group would have their own custom set of rules.

Other designers could create mods for the app to add things like sci-fi or horror or adding new monsters or spells, etc.

Sorta like a Skyrim for tabletop RPGs.

That's cool idea, but I doubt it's possible to do it clearly. Too much of wibbly-wobbly parts.
And of course fans of any given edition would whine that they cannot find a group as their table wanna play some different lame combination not True D&D
At least with specific editions is easier to get overall vibe and rules are planned to go together.

Quote(pedant)Strictly speaking that would be demons of lust, and they'd be after everybody.(/pedant) But yeah, I see your point.

Implying mighty and vicious demons of gay would agree to be classified with mere straight succubi and incubi. Ha!

QuoteThat said, I think there is one way in which OSR has wound up on the "conservative" side of modern debates by default: OSR is all about preserving a specific type of entertainment experience for its own sake, without needing any kind of advocacy message -- even a conservatively agreeable one -- to be embedded in it to call it "worthwhile".

Agree.

QuoteThe New School seems to me very much about the idea that a game has to be about some important real-world topic to be worthy of respect and emotional investment, and while in principle the topic itself could be anything, in practice, this perspective on the world lines up so precisely with the whole "the personal is political / everything is political" stance of SJ philosophy that it's unsurprising most of those who approach game design this way do so with SJ planks in mind.

That I disagree quite strongly. For me first and foremost of what's called The New School are games Powered by the Apocalypse and/or Forged in the Dark.
For me decisive elements of this style of game are a) game should simulate story and progress of story, not singular actions b) importance of possition and effect as elements negotiable with DM - how risky are your deeds, and how rewarding for your purposes. c) more varied roll results than win/lose usually with win with consequence. d) limited simulating of PC character, most specific skills and so on are assumed based on fictional description and position/effects can changed base on who's trying to do what, e) usually more narrow focus of gameplay and more structured scenarios.

QuoteNew School includes narrow topic-specific games like Apocalypse World and Fiasco, but it also includes generic systems like Fate Core.

Not sure if Fate counts, though it was most definitely important for it. But then as other guys here noted - most of NS elements were around in various forms for a long time before they become more unified trend.

Quote1: I think for some the problem with multiple editions past 2e is that the changes are too large. Before that the differences from AD&D to 2e were not huge. And the transitions from O to B to BX to BECMI were also not so large as to put some fans off. On the flip side Gamma World has not had a consistent setting or rules ever from edition to edition.

Sure, but then one can agree that there are four separate games under guise of D&D. Each is well still playable.
And even then changes are less that between Warhammer 2 and 3 XD.
Maybe people should well not expect new editions to be just erratas.

QuoteIt is not so much that people dont like new editions. They hate obvious cash grabs trying to milk the customer base. Or changes so extensive its barely recognizable. This was 4es problem. Its not D&D.

I consider making edition 6 of CoC that is refined version of 5e that is... and so on, much more obvious cash grab than making basically new game under the same logo. With new game you get you know - new ways to play.

Quote2: The retcon disease did not start till DC did Crisis. And even after that things were still overall the same. But then DC got the "Crisis Disease" and so far theres no cure in sight and the patient is starting to look terminal. Marvel was for a loooooong time fairly stable. You just got big uphevals to individuals or on rare occasion larger events. But nothing totally world changing. That changed in the 2000s. But Marvel has been self destructing with its feminist agenda and then SJW agenda disease and its well past terminal at this point.

I always have a feeling that custom of retconning - by convoluted explanations - any mayor changes that endangered stability of main lines for both Marvel and DC are quite old practice.
Not speaking only about whole world - retcons and reboots - but things like constant fake deaths and resurrections.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 31, 2021, 12:24:58 PM
The only way I could see this happening is if there was some sort of PDF generation app. You load the app and start selecting options: race+class or race-as-class, vancian magic or spell points, hit points or wound levels, pick which races and classes you want, how historical your game world is, gold standard or silver standard, alignment or nah, etc. Then you click the button and it generates a pdf rulebook that includes every option you picked and none that you didn't. This way every group would have their own custom set of rules.

Other designers could create mods for the app to add things like sci-fi or horror or adding new monsters or spells, etc.

Sorta like a Skyrim for tabletop RPGs.

The way you do that is build a kitchen sink system with some well defined optional rules that allow you; between curated options and optional rules; to have the system you want.

It's honestly why I did take the time to include an optional rules section in my own system so it could be tailored towards different styles of play. By default it's Big Damned Heroes in style, but there's optional rules for beginning at anywhere from level 0 to a level -3 where you're literally a non-combatant without even a class.

Likewise, default attributes are a choice of arrays, but I also included point buy and a couple methods of random generation as optional rules for those who prefer that. The same for rolling random species and background. For those who don't want class customization there's an option for default talents. For those who prefer Theater of the Mind combat, there's options for that (truth do tell, I've used those more in playtests than the default battlemap rules).

In the opposite direction, for those who like 3e style skill point allocation, there's an optional rule for that.

Throw out the more gonzo species and limit the classes and you can emulate the more limited options of really old school games quite easily.

The trick is to build in a lot of options for the system initially so making changes is more about curating and selecting rather than having to build from scratch. That way it's easy for GMs/Players to adjust the system to fit.

I had hoped OSR would grow beyond "games built on TSR D&D", but that did not happen much. The fan built D6 and D100 games never got much traction in the hobby compared to how many TSR clones have been adopted and played.

We can't even say Old Games vs. New Games as a logical divide because storygames aren't new anymore. Even the divide between Traditional RPG vs. Narrative RPG barely works anymore.

Like everything else in society, it's really about the political divide now.

As I've said before, survivors of the "Satanic Panic" now having to deal with
the SJW Storm.

It seems they can't be satisfied with just playing D&D. They need to cripple all aspects of what the game is. Hence, I ask the OSR to stand strong ---- because D&D as we know it, might fail.

The OSR can become, when WotC falls, EVERYTHING D&D. It's a hefty obligation, but if they're worthy, a good one. That generates wealth. Remember Paizo built a fortress when D&D fell.

The right adaptation of the Rules Cyclopedia + 5e should do well. Keep your minds open to a new generation of gamers.

I refuse to limit myself to a single rpg. I will play all of them. I prefer Savage Worlds and OSR (B/X).

When 6E comes out, I will probably play that too. I don't care about putting things in boxes, that's a progressive problem

Quote from: Spinachcat on February 01, 2021, 08:22:07 PM
I had hoped OSR would grow beyond "games built on TSR D&D", but that did not happen much. The fan built D6 and D100 games never got much traction in the hobby compared to how many TSR clones have been adopted and played.
...

That was the absolute intention of the d20 OGL.

It was great for the proliferation of D&D based systems, but also heavily marginalized most other systems before they gradually realized what was happening and released OGL's of their own.

Now it's probably too little too late.

Systems like OpenQuest d100, open d6, etc... need a "flagship" complete game to lead the way first like D&D is to OGL, to get people to take notice of what they can do.