I see D&D changing again. From the 3e BS that transformed the game, to something closer to FATE. DIY classes and races. 6e COULD BE a fully freeform game where players make characters from pure imagination, with ability bonuses being WTF.

I could see the 6e Monster Manual being five pages. Describing one monster: The White Man. That's the SJWs main threat. Orcs, Dragons, demons --- they're the PCs --- and the white man is their "Monster".

"He's SO evil".

So a party of Orc, Kobold and Bugbear PCs combat the evil white man in his dungeon created for personal convenience. Because white men are that ULTIMATE EVIL. This is where it's going.

The greater hobby question is: Do YOU want that?

Insert "that's bait" meme here

Quote from: Theory of Games on January 29, 2021, 09:04:58 PM
The greater hobby question is: Do YOU want that?

I want D&D to be like poker or chess. A game people play with friends that isn't changing everytime there's a new corporate trend.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 29, 2021, 09:24:59 PM

Quote from: Theory of Games on January 29, 2021, 09:04:58 PM
The greater hobby question is: Do YOU want that?

I want D&D to be like poker or chess. A game people play with friends that isn't changing everytime there's a new corporate trend.

Same, but with the caveat that, like playing games with buddies, houserules are encouraged and embraced, and sometimes published for others

Quote from: Theory of Games on January 29, 2021, 09:04:58 PM
I see D&D changing again. From the 3e BS that transformed the game, to something closer to FATE. DIY classes and races. 6e COULD BE a fully freeform game where players make characters from pure imagination, with ability bonuses being WTF.

I could see the 6e Monster Manual being five pages. Describing one monster: The White Man. That's the SJWs main threat. Orcs, Dragons, demons --- they're the PCs --- and the white man is their "Monster".

"He's SO evil".

So a party of Orc, Kobold and Bugbear PCs combat the evil white man in his dungeon created for personal convenience. Because white men are that ULTIMATE EVIL. This is where it's going.

The greater hobby question is: Do YOU want that?

I see you subscribe to the Star Trek Movie model of releasing DnD editions.

https://images.app.goo.gl/GM91bwwPT5VdgbG99

Quote from: Theory of Games on January 29, 2021, 09:04:58 PM
So a party of Orc, Kobold and Bugbear PCs combat the evil white man in his dungeon created for personal convenience. Because white men are that ULTIMATE EVIL. This is where it's going.

The greater hobby question is: Do YOU want that?

I had a D&D campaign two years ago that was like this - the PCs were an orc paladin, kobold sorcerer, yuan-ti cleric, and a hobgoblin fighter. It was set in a mirror version of Greyhawk where those were all good-aligned races, while humans, elves, and dwarves were evil. I had a thread here about whether it was politically correct, or just a change of pace.

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/politically-correct-stuff-in-your-gaming-worlds/

As an alternative, I liked it. We didn't go that far with it, but it was fun to play out the action. In general, I think supporting different sorts of worlds and PCs is good. That said, I don't think it's that big a change. D&D has long supported different worlds and settings, not just Tolkien ripoffs - like Planescape, Spelljammer, and Maztica.

Quote from: Theory of Games on January 29, 2021, 09:04:58 PMThe greater hobby question is: Do YOU want that?

Not particularly, but I thought "resistance to 'new-school' RPG philosophy" was already one of the key planks of the OSR, wasn't it? Where does the OSR need to "hold stance" that it hasn't already been quite cheerfully holding?

For myself I admit I can't see D&D going down the road you imagine and still being even semi-successful, if nothing else because the same foe all the time would get boring. "Penthouses and Patriarchies" just doesn't evoke the same thrill. (And I say that as a person who was never particularly into the OSR myself, if only because I always had a weakness for point-buy systems.)

QuoteI want D&D to be like poker or chess. A game people play with friends that isn't changing everytime there's a new corporate trend.

This is basically impossible, and never was a thing. House rules were around from the get go - even encouraged - and that's exactly changing the game, even without corporate trend just by will of DMs and players. D&D by grace of being RPG cannot be like poker and chess. Never was, never will be, even if no new edition would be published ever. Deal with it. This is RPG. Learn new rules, improvise, read dozen games and so on. Wanna have STABLE RULES - play board games.

QuoteI see D&D changing again. From the 3e BS that transformed the game, to something closer to FATE. DIY classes and races. 6e COULD BE a fully freeform game where players make characters from pure imagination, with ability bonuses being WTF.

I could see the 6e Monster Manual being five pages. Describing one monster: The White Man. That's the SJWs main threat. Orcs, Dragons, demons --- they're the PCs --- and the white man is their "Monster".

"He's SO evil".

So a party of Orc, Kobold and Bugbear PCs combat the evil white man in his dungeon created for personal convenience. Because white men are that ULTIMATE EVIL. This is where it's going.

The greater hobby question is: Do YOU want that?

As a conservative player who was planning to make so call evil humanoid races to be socially and culturally diversed since 2005, and as Professor Tolkien was deeply troubled by intelligent mortal beings being "always good" or "always evil" - I'd say I will very gladly enjoy orcs, kobolds and bugbears as core adventuring races in D&D.
Demons and dragons not so much - but I'd gladly get rid of dragon strict subtypes as well, instead making them embodiments of primordial chaos, and make big random tables deciding shape, colour, horns, wings, breath weapon, magic abilities and so on of each and every dragon around :3

But of course I also want to keep White Men as diversed as they were - Germanic should be LE, Balts TN, Slavic CG, Celts CN, Greeks LN, Romans LG, Aryans NG, Semites NE and Albanians CE.

Also:

>3,5
>close to FATE

How about: bullshit.

QuoteSame, but with the caveat that, like playing games with buddies, houserules are encouraged and embraced, and sometimes published for others

Which exactly makes it impossible.

Also: and that's very important thing. Lots of people around seems to be somehow pained there are multiple editions.
While in comics or films, retcons are sort of destroying story, destroying continuation - I mean in terms of DC and Marvel it doesn't matter because continuity of their worlds was gangraped multiple times each 2 years since 60s, but in other situations it can be annoying. But with RPG - it doesn't matter. It fucking doesn't matter.
You have 35 editions of D&D. Good. They are vastly different - even better - you have a lot of material to pick your favourite. And if have some irrational need to be part of great world community of D&D players, and your ass hurts because each group plays different variation of RP game, then go to therapy or talk with your local priest, because that's some bullshit.

QuoteI had a D&D campaign two years ago that was like this - the PCs were an orc paladin, kobold sorcerer, yuan-ti cleric, and a hobgoblin fighter. It was set in a mirror version of Greyhawk where those were all good-aligned races, while humans, elves, and dwarves were evil. I had a thread here about whether it was politically correct, or just a change of pace.

Cool I planned a setting - I have yet to build, where I decided 13 races will be max for all world (all other beings will be unique mutants, planetoucheds, fairies and so on, not mortals) - and went with adopting both traditionally evil and good races - as diffferent but morally diversed people. I find it... well more interesting.
And in my rather normal Faerun campaign I have orc paladin of Tyr in team :3

I see nothing politically correct it, nor false diversity, nor even sjw (I keep those words separate - PC would be avoiding calling people based on some minorities - like let's say Cthulthans of Faerun - savages or barbarians, false diversity would be race swapping of ethnic groups, making some ancient cities as diverse as modern London, and so on, SJWs would be shaping narrative in a way blaming equivalents of European/American for evils of the world - often used together but ultimately not the same).

QuoteNot particularly, but I thought "resistance to 'new-school' RPG philosophy" was already one of the key planks of the OSR, wasn't it? Where does the OSR need to "hold stance" that it hasn't already been quite cheerfully holding?

Well yes but neither OSR is fundamentally conservative, nor New School fundamentally SJW.
I'd even say considering thematic focus of New School, that OSR sandbox style usually lacks - new school is probably better for making really conservative games - you can make whole story about ninja Vatican exorcists fighting demons of gay

And you can take OSR game and run it perfectly within leftist perspective - like old hippie FR of Greenwood, before TSR made it family friendly.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on January 30, 2021, 07:05:32 AMThis is basically impossible, and never was a thing. House rules were around from the get go - even encouraged - and -

There are an extraordinary number of variants of poker. And there is a difference between house rules and corporate rule changes.

Yes, there are also many variants of chess in fact.

QuoteAnd there is a difference between house rules and corporate rule changes.

Only if you are tournament player - which matters in poker and chess - but I have yet to see Corporate D&D Tournament. D&D is only amateur game - so it's all in hands of a group.
Unless you are afraid your players gonna like new rules better, but in such case that's kinda egoistical assholness - I want less diversity in possible rules, so my players were forced to play variant I like.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on January 30, 2021, 07:36:23 AMThere are an extraordinary number of variants of poker. And there is a difference between house rules and corporate rule changes.

Yeah, my post wasn't clear. I don't want D&D (or any RPG) to be standardized, just a regular type of game that people play without needing to play whatever is current just to find a group.

The only way I could see this happening is if there was some sort of PDF generation app. You load the app and start selecting options: race+class or race-as-class, vancian magic or spell points, hit points or wound levels, pick which races and classes you want, how historical your game world is, gold standard or silver standard, alignment or nah, etc. Then you click the button and it generates a pdf rulebook that includes every option you picked and none that you didn't. This way every group would have their own custom set of rules.

Other designers could create mods for the app to add things like sci-fi or horror or adding new monsters or spells, etc.

Sorta like a Skyrim for tabletop RPGs.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on January 30, 2021, 07:05:32 AMWell yes but neither OSR is fundamentally conservative, nor New School fundamentally SJW.
I'd even say considering thematic focus of New School, that OSR sandbox style usually lacks - new school is probably better for making really conservative games - you can make whole story about ninja Vatican exorcists fighting demons of gay

(pedant)Strictly speaking that would be demons of lust, and they'd be after everybody.(/pedant) But yeah, I see your point.

That said, I think there is one way in which OSR has wound up on the "conservative" side of modern debates by default: OSR is all about preserving a specific type of entertainment experience for its own sake, without needing any kind of advocacy message -- even a conservatively agreeable one -- to be embedded in it to call it "worthwhile".

The New School seems to me very much about the idea that a game has to be about some important real-world topic to be worthy of respect and emotional investment, and while in principle the topic itself could be anything, in practice, this perspective on the world lines up so precisely with the whole "the personal is political / everything is political" stance of SJ philosophy that it's unsurprising most of those who approach game design this way do so with SJ planks in mind.

Quote from: Theory of Games on January 29, 2021, 09:04:58 PM
I see D&D changing again. From the 3e BS that transformed the game, to something closer to FATE. DIY classes and races. 6e COULD BE a fully freeform game where players make characters from pure imagination, with ability bonuses being WTF.
...
The greater hobby question is: Do YOU want that?

I already have what I want, so I don't care what WotC does with D&D.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament on January 31, 2021, 05:38:36 PM

Quote from: Theory of Games on January 29, 2021, 09:04:58 PM
I see D&D changing again. From the 3e BS that transformed the game, to something closer to FATE. DIY classes and races. 6e COULD BE a fully freeform game where players make characters from pure imagination, with ability bonuses being WTF.
...
The greater hobby question is: Do YOU want that?

I already have what I want, so I don't care what WotC does with D&D.

Same here.