If WotC closes shop, none of the vanity press products of the most popular YouTube influencers are going to replace D&D. There is in fact only one game that can...
Domino has definitely been bribed to be so cute.
being the perceived first on the scene is always going to an advantage nobody can match. D&D has had it's lows and highs before.
The big issue in my mind is tabletop games don't have a large enough market cap to begin with, D&D being worth a billion dollars relies on TTRPGs as a whole simply being more mainstream than they currently are, and the vast majority of people in my social circles just aren't into them.
their best bet is to simply license more successful video games from the IP if they want to make real money. the market cap on video games is at this point larger than the film industry.
Funny, I seemed to have already replaced D&D. We called it Palladium books back in high school.
These days it's Tiny D6: Supers.
Fun fact about me: I've never played a D&D game, or even an OSR copycat. The closest I've come is some solo testing of the OSR game Chanbara.
Economically Pathfinder is going to "take over" in the sense of being the largest remaining market share still putting out new content, despite Pathfinder 2 being complete shit as a game. Given the nature of the hobby however, I expect people are just going to carry on with their D&D version of choice until the paper eventually rots out of the books, or Pathfinder 1 in the case of the people who think it's better than 3.5 as it's basically D&D with the serial numbers filed off. Thankfully we're under no obligation to be pried away from our already-purchased books and can continue on just fine without WotC.
How is
Tales of the Valiant doing?
After the OGL debacle, Kolbold Press launched a KS for TotV. It was meant to be a non-OGL 5E, with some of their own changes:
QuoteThe big-picture goals for Tales of the Valiant are:
1) Make the rules easier to read, understand, and use.
2) Reduce GM burden with encounter-building tools, exploration encounter tools, social encounter tools, and more.
3) Rebalance some existing elements such as feats (now known as talents) and subclasses.
4) Provide opportunities for PCs to make meaningful choices throughout every level of play.
5) Make spellcasting cooler.
6) Keep combat interesting for martial characters.
10,057 backers pledged $1,151,914. Delivered on April 2024, so it's been about a year. Did Shadowdark and/or 5.5E steal the thunder?
Greetings!
Let all the haters cry. SHADOWDARK is getting bigger and bigger. SHADOWDARK is going to continue going from success to success. SGADOWDARK is more and more popular, EVERY DAY.
The recent Shadowdark KS broke 2.4 MILLION DOLLARS. Easy.
More third-party creators are creating stuff for Shadowdark. More interviews, more coverage, more people playing and DMing Shadowdark than ever before.
The haters can choke on it.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 06:50:35 PMGreetings!
Let all the haters cry. SHADOWDARK is getting bigger and bigger. SHADOWDARK is going to continue going from success to success. SGADOWDARK is more and more popular, EVERY DAY.
The recent Shadowdark KS broke 2.4 MILLION DOLLARS. Easy.
More third-party creators are creating stuff for Shadowdark. More interviews, more coverage, more people playing and DMing Shadowdark than ever before.
The haters can choke on it.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Shark,
Just picked up a copy of Shadowdark. So far it looks good. I like the lack of PC darkvision and the casting rolls. I can see it becoming my OSR goto rules set. True test will be how it plays at the table.
Quote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 06:50:35 PMGreetings!
Let all the haters cry. SHADOWDARK is getting bigger and bigger. SHADOWDARK is going to continue going from success to success. SGADOWDARK is more and more popular, EVERY DAY.
The recent Shadowdark KS broke 2.4 MILLION DOLLARS. Easy.
More third-party creators are creating stuff for Shadowdark. More interviews, more coverage, more people playing and DMing Shadowdark than ever before.
The haters can choke on it.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
LOL My sentiments exactly, Shark!
Quote from: Valatar on April 20, 2025, 05:27:40 PMEconomically Pathfinder is going to "take over" in the sense of being the largest remaining market share still putting out new content, despite Pathfinder 2 being complete shit as a game. Given the nature of the hobby however, I expect people are just going to carry on with their D&D version of choice until the paper eventually rots out of the books, or Pathfinder 1 in the case of the people who think it's better than 3.5 as it's basically D&D with the serial numbers filed off. Thankfully we're under no obligation to be pried away from our already-purchased books and can continue on just fine without WotC.
Yeah, that's really the thing. If WOTC stops publishing 5e books, it's going to be a long time before anyone has to actually stop playing it. Especially if the third-party producers keep churning out material for it, 5e can go on pretty much indefinitely without WOTC's input.
Quote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 06:50:35 PMThe recent Shadowdark KS broke 2.4 MILLION DOLLARS. Easy.
Shark, 2.4 million dollars is
nothing in the business world. It's excellent for an indie RPG release, but it wouldn't even begin to make a ripple in the pond that is Hasbro, Mattel, et al. That's not a knock on Shadowdark or its rules (my group is on our third Shadowdark campaign and I've given my opinions in other threads... it's ok). But, the day that 2.4 million dollars is the largest RPG release by the leader in the industry, the TTRPG hobby will be effectively dead. Shadowdark is a decent game, but it's not going to replace D&D. It can feed on its corpse, but it'll never grow to be that size...
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 20, 2025, 08:06:03 PMQuote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 06:50:35 PMGreetings!
Let all the haters cry. SHADOWDARK is getting bigger and bigger. SHADOWDARK is going to continue going from success to success. SGADOWDARK is more and more popular, EVERY DAY.
The recent Shadowdark KS broke 2.4 MILLION DOLLARS. Easy.
More third-party creators are creating stuff for Shadowdark. More interviews, more coverage, more people playing and DMing Shadowdark than ever before.
The haters can choke on it.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
LOL My sentiments exactly, Shark!
Greetings!
*Laughing* Yeah, my friend! The absolute hatred, jealousy, the seething envy I have seen from a good number of the haters is just disgusting, and pathetic.
Yeah, Shadowdark is inspired from many ideas from many different games. And then, DOES IT ALL BETTER!
All the fat, bitter crybabies shrieking about some fucking obscure game or another, why *Their Favourite Game* is somehow vastly superior, blah, blah, blah.
Shadowdark takes many ideas, blends them together, and presents them with polish, simplicity, modularity, and *style*. All these shriking morons cry about their dweeb game in a fucking basement. They choked. They don't have Shadowdark's organization, presentation, diverse inspirations, and style. That's why no one gives a fuck about their shrieking favourite game, and why so many people love Shadowdark. Simplicity, style, art, presentation, modularity, FUN. A STACK of fucking reasons why so many people love Shadowdark.
I roar with laughter at all the bitter losers crying about some failed game, or just some game that is much less popular. Get over it, dork. Stop being jealous because your favoured game designer or game has been struggling for years and years--and in a much shorter time, Shadowdark has become far more popular, and also made Kelsey RICH. Whah! Whah! Whah!
Kelsey is an excellent game designer, and an excellent writer. There are lots of deeper mechanics under the hood of Shadowdark that really make the engine sing, and anyone with a brain and game experience can see it. Those that don't are usually just consumed with jealousy and bitterness--and also, typically, don't actually own the books and play the fucking game.
Shadowdark is simple, easy to play, easy to DM for, easy to prep for, easy to modify for, has beautiful, OLD SCHOOL ART--not gay fucking dwarves in a bakery, or rainbow haired dweebs in a magic coffee shop. Shadowdark has all the traditional awesome things that are standard in OSR games, with the best ideas from 5E thrown in, as well as other diverse ideas that are cool and popular. Very much rooted and grounded in OSR values and traditions. No stupid Woke politics of any kind.
And yet, a gaggle of these fucking jackasses want to shit on Kelsey as a designer, and on Shadowdark as a game. And also, on the fans and gamers that have supported Shadowdark. The hypocrisy is so high you would need an F-18 to fly over these people's mountain of hypocritical horseshit.
Time to enjoy some fresh coffee, my friend! Stay strong, brother!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Eirikrautha on April 20, 2025, 08:36:02 PMQuote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 06:50:35 PMThe recent Shadowdark KS broke 2.4 MILLION DOLLARS. Easy.
Shark, 2.4 million dollars is nothing in the business world. It's excellent for an indie RPG release, but it wouldn't even begin to make a ripple in the pond that is Hasbro, Mattel, et al. That's not a knock on Shadowdark or its rules (my group is on our third Shadowdark campaign and I've given my opinions in other threads... it's ok). But, the day that 2.4 million dollars is the largest RPG release by the leader in the industry, the TTRPG hobby will be effectively dead. Shadowdark is a decent game, but it's not going to replace D&D. It can feed on its corpse, but it'll never grow to be that size...
Greetings!
No need to compare to Hasbro, my friend. Most wannabe game designers make ZERO--or coffee money if they are lucky. So, Kelsey making MILLIONS is an absolute and huge success. Shadowdark is already achieved the status of being one of the top indie RPG's sold of all time. Absolutely off the charts, my friend. Very few games are in the same club as Kelsey and Shadowdark.
Pretty amazing when you think about her and her very small team doing this all from their proverbial garage. Just like how Gygax started, come to think of it. Noone cares about WOTC or Habro, man. And yeah, Shadowdark is absolutely spreading in popularity like wildfire, man. Not just channels dedicated to Shadowdark, but even channels focused on other games, solo games, and more, I've seen HUGE numbers of just ordinary gamers applauding and promoting Shadowdark as a fantastic new game, and definitely a strong OSR game to get into.
Lots of other games, all the obscure basement favourites, don't have that kind of energy and enthusiasm. So, whatever the future for Shadowdark, it is absolutely POSITIVE and BRIGHT. That, for an indie OSR RPG, should be something that everyone should celebrate.
Except for WOTC.
As more than a few other commentators have discussed, Shadowdark is HUGE--and growing fast. Lightning speed. Noone gives a fuck about Pathfinder, really. They fumbled the ball a long time ago. So, there is nothing but space and opportunity for new games to grow EVER STRONGER AND MORE POPULAR.
And Shadowdark is happily doing just that, my friend.
More smaller games and designers should learn from Kelsey. Learn from Shadowdark. Stop being jealous losers and crybabies, and instead of stomping their feet and having fits about Shadowdark, they should get with the fucking program, and humble themselves. Learn and accept how they can do things better, improve, and be inspired from learning from Shadowdark which has shown what it is like to do it right.
Gotta get some coffee!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Venka on April 20, 2025, 04:09:32 AMDomino has definitely been bribed to be so cute.
Nah. As you can see, she hasn't yet learned to be a real camera hog. She just does walk-throughs for now.
Quote from: Valatar on April 20, 2025, 05:27:40 PMEconomically Pathfinder is going to "take over" in the sense of being the largest remaining market share still putting out new content, despite Pathfinder 2 being complete shit as a game. Given the nature of the hobby however, I expect people are just going to carry on with their D&D version of choice until the paper eventually rots out of the books, or Pathfinder 1 in the case of the people who think it's better than 3.5 as it's basically D&D with the serial numbers filed off. Thankfully we're under no obligation to be pried away from our already-purchased books and can continue on just fine without WotC.
I don't think so. It might for a millisecond, but its sales are nowhere near what Pathfinder 1e was in its heyday.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on April 20, 2025, 08:36:02 PMQuote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 06:50:35 PMThe recent Shadowdark KS broke 2.4 MILLION DOLLARS. Easy.
Shark, 2.4 million dollars is nothing in the business world. It's excellent for an indie RPG release, but it wouldn't even begin to make a ripple in the pond that is Hasbro, Mattel, et al. That's not a knock on Shadowdark or its rules (my group is on our third Shadowdark campaign and I've given my opinions in other threads... it's ok). But, the day that 2.4 million dollars is the largest RPG release by the leader in the industry, the TTRPG hobby will be effectively dead. Shadowdark is a decent game, but it's not going to replace D&D. It can feed on its corpse, but it'll never grow to be that size...
Correct. I pointed it out in the video: the creator of shadowdark doesn't have the infrastructure to make it into the market leader, unless she gets some serious investment going.
Quote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 09:48:58 PMAbsolutely off the charts, my friend. Very few games are in the same club as Kelsey and Shadowdark.
Pretty amazing when you think about her and her very small team doing this all from their proverbial garage. Just like how Gygax started, come to think of it.
Quote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 09:48:58 PMMore smaller games and designers should learn from Kelsey. Learn from Shadowdark.
Quote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 09:48:58 PMLearn and accept how they can do things better, improve, and be inspired from learning from Shadowdark which has shown what it is like to do it right.
Those are my takeaways from the campaigns and Shadowdark in general as someone who likes the idea of it and what it means for the indy rpg scene but who doesn't really have the intention of playing it myself (nor did I back either campaign). There is alot I can learn from her work and I think it's a huge net positive for the OSR scene despite the moaning and gnashing of teeth from the One True OSR
TM crowd.
Quote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 09:48:58 PMGotta get some coffee!
Judging by the other parts of your posts, you may want to skip adding the piss and vinegar and just drink it black. :)
Quote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 09:35:02 PMQuote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 20, 2025, 08:06:03 PMQuote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 06:50:35 PMGreetings!
Let all the haters cry. SHADOWDARK is getting bigger and bigger. SHADOWDARK is going to continue going from success to success. SGADOWDARK is more and more popular, EVERY DAY.
The recent Shadowdark KS broke 2.4 MILLION DOLLARS. Easy.
More third-party creators are creating stuff for Shadowdark. More interviews, more coverage, more people playing and DMing Shadowdark than ever before.
The haters can choke on it.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
LOL My sentiments exactly, Shark!
Greetings!
*Laughing* Yeah, my friend! The absolute hatred, jealousy, the seething envy I have seen from a good number of the haters is just disgusting, and pathetic.
Yeah, Shadowdark is inspired from many ideas from many different games. And then, DOES IT ALL BETTER!
All the fat, bitter crybabies shrieking about some fucking obscure game or another, why *Their Favourite Game* is somehow vastly superior, blah, blah, blah.
Shadowdark takes many ideas, blends them together, and presents them with polish, simplicity, modularity, and *style*. All these shriking morons cry about their dweeb game in a fucking basement. They choked. They don't have Shadowdark's organization, presentation, diverse inspirations, and style. That's why no one gives a fuck about their shrieking favourite game, and why so many people love Shadowdark. Simplicity, style, art, presentation, modularity, FUN. A STACK of fucking reasons why so many people love Shadowdark.
I roar with laughter at all the bitter losers crying about some failed game, or just some game that is much less popular. Get over it, dork. Stop being jealous because your favoured game designer or game has been struggling for years and years--and in a much shorter time, Shadowdark has become far more popular, and also made Kelsey RICH. Whah! Whah! Whah!
Kelsey is an excellent game designer, and an excellent writer. There are lots of deeper mechanics under the hood of Shadowdark that really make the engine sing, and anyone with a brain and game experience can see it. Those that don't are usually just consumed with jealousy and bitterness--and also, typically, don't actually own the books and play the fucking game.
Shadowdark is simple, easy to play, easy to DM for, easy to prep for, easy to modify for, has beautiful, OLD SCHOOL ART--not gay fucking dwarves in a bakery, or rainbow haired dweebs in a magic coffee shop. Shadowdark has all the traditional awesome things that are standard in OSR games, with the best ideas from 5E thrown in, as well as other diverse ideas that are cool and popular. Very much rooted and grounded in OSR values and traditions. No stupid Woke politics of any kind.
And yet, a gaggle of these fucking jackasses want to shit on Kelsey as a designer, and on Shadowdark as a game. And also, on the fans and gamers that have supported Shadowdark. The hypocrisy is so high you would need an F-18 to fly over these people's mountain of hypocritical horseshit.
Time to enjoy some fresh coffee, my friend! Stay strong, brother!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Is everything okay at home?
Quote from: RNGm on April 21, 2025, 08:36:33 AMQuote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 09:48:58 PMAbsolutely off the charts, my friend. Very few games are in the same club as Kelsey and Shadowdark.
Pretty amazing when you think about her and her very small team doing this all from their proverbial garage. Just like how Gygax started, come to think of it.
Quote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 09:48:58 PMMore smaller games and designers should learn from Kelsey. Learn from Shadowdark.
Quote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 09:48:58 PMLearn and accept how they can do things better, improve, and be inspired from learning from Shadowdark which has shown what it is like to do it right.
Those are my takeaways from the campaigns and Shadowdark in general as someone who likes the idea of it and what it means for the indy rpg scene but who doesn't really have the intention of playing it myself (nor did I back either campaign). There is alot I can learn from her work and I think it's a huge net positive for the OSR scene despite the moaning and gnashing of teeth from the One True OSRTM crowd.
Quote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 09:48:58 PMGotta get some coffee!
I think this is exactly right: the vast majority of people purchasing and supporting Shadowdark through KS like the "idea" of cool indy game that is an alternative to WOTC D&D, but very few will actually play the game.
It is getting some play at conventions right now, but I pointed out in another post, that at Garçon, 5e events outnumbered Shadowdark by like 10-1. Other games like Call of Cthulhu or the Free League stuff, had just as many events as Shadowdark.
Someone told me "Shadowdark is basically Mazes and Minotaurs written by a young woman, and hyped on social media"
Now if it actually explodes in popularity and goes beyond KS to become a legitimate game company that rivals and supplants WOTC, awesome --I would support that for sure. But I don't think it will. It is seriously overrated, and I'd be happy to discuss the mechanics, etc. It is a good, fun game. It is NOT some revolutionary RPG that makes all others look like shit, written by the high-priestess of game design, a literal Hypatia-level genius who we all have to look away from lest her radiant beauty and intellect blind us.
the endless ass-kissing by thirsty gamers and fake reviews by YT personalities who are getting paid to promote the game is nauseating.
If you consider this is the 2nd Arcane Library KS and the total of the twain is nearly 4 million dollars, I think WotC has taken note. That is 4 million clams that they are not getting. And as popularity grows we will see it more and more at conventions and in other places. If you look up 'Shadowdark' on KS you will see 155 projects. It is a cash cow right now for the little guys too.
Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on April 21, 2025, 10:04:03 AMNow if it actually explodes in popularity and goes beyond KS to become a legitimate game company that rivals and supplants WOTC, awesome --I would support that for sure. But I don't think it will. It is seriously overrated, and I'd be happy to discuss the mechanics, etc. It is a good, fun game.
I don't think that anyone with more than a couple brain cells consistently firing would expect it to rival let alone supplant WOTC but I do think it has a chance (if it isn't already) to be the reigning queen of the OSR scene (hey, that rhymes!) and to be an indy darling for years to come. That's still a massive success for what is essentially a 2-3 person crew with some freelancers doing art commissions.
Quote from: bat on April 21, 2025, 10:23:19 AMIf you consider this is the 2nd Arcane Library KS and the total of the twain is nearly 4 million dollars, I think WotC has taken note. That is 4 million clams that they are not getting. And as popularity grows we will see it more and more at conventions and in other places. If you look up 'Shadowdark' on KS you will see 155 projects. It is a cash cow right now for the little guys too.
And that doesn't include the direct sales she's gotten inbetween. I don't remember the exact number from the quote but in the recent Garycon "state of the shadowdark" panel she said that it sold significantly more at retail than with the initial crowdfunder. I'd expect those numbers to go up even more following the even bigger followup success of the second campaign.
I'm glad someone somewhere, climbed up out of the muck and the mire. There is so much competition out there, for the RPG dollars.
Quote from: Aglondir on April 20, 2025, 05:28:40 PMHow is Tales of the Valiant doing?
After the OGL debacle, Kolbold Press launched a KS for TotV. It was meant to be a non-OGL 5E, with some of their own changes:
QuoteThe big-picture goals for Tales of the Valiant are:
1) Make the rules easier to read, understand, and use.
2) Reduce GM burden with encounter-building tools, exploration encounter tools, social encounter tools, and more.
3) Rebalance some existing elements such as feats (now known as talents) and subclasses.
4) Provide opportunities for PCs to make meaningful choices throughout every level of play.
5) Make spellcasting cooler.
6) Keep combat interesting for martial characters.
10,057 backers pledged $1,151,914. Delivered on April 2024, so it's been about a year. Did Shadowdark and/or 5.5E steal the thunder?
I printed out Black Flag, the free OGL version - it's very nicely done, the monsters are far better done than 5e & the magic item prices are great ...for 5e. It's basically standard 5e, so there's no real reason to convert. Just use the bits you want in your 5e game.
My opinion of Shadowdark is pretty close to SHARK's - those who dismiss it probably haven't played it IMO. There is a ton of cool stuff that's not obvious on a quick read-through. And it's very cleverly placed to attract both grognards and people who want 5e-lite.
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 21, 2025, 08:11:17 AMI don't think so. It might for a millisecond, but its sales are nowhere near what Pathfinder 1e was in its heyday.
Despite my hatred of it, Pathfinder 2 is doing reasonably well. Here are the stats from the Foundry VTT team at the end of last year:
(https://i.imgur.com/hvsjLGg.png)
Can they maintain it? No idea. I certainly believe it's nowhere as ubiquitous as PF1 had been at its height; 5e took a lot of the market share back from them. I'd expect the numbers to be at least reversed from back when PF1 was outselling 4e, so this represents a big drop from their height.
Quote from: S'mon on April 21, 2025, 02:04:58 PMMy opinion of Shadowdark is pretty close to SHARK's - those who dismiss it probably haven't played it IMO. There is a ton of cool stuff that's not obvious on a quick read-through. And it's very cleverly placed to attract both grognards and people who want 5e-lite.
No fair throwing that out without giving some details. What are the cool things that are not immediately obvious?
Quote from: Mishihari on April 21, 2025, 02:16:52 PMQuote from: S'mon on April 21, 2025, 02:04:58 PMMy opinion of Shadowdark is pretty close to SHARK's - those who dismiss it probably haven't played it IMO. There is a ton of cool stuff that's not obvious on a quick read-through. And it's very cleverly placed to attract both grognards and people who want 5e-lite.
No fair throwing that out without giving some details. What are the cool things that are not immediately obvious?
Well some things I initially missed: there is no advancement table. There are no spell slots - you roll to cast, and can keep casting as long as you succeed - Luck Points allow rerolls so this isn't too harsh. There are no Saving Throws; generally it's character Level that determines whether a spell is effective. eg Power Word Kill auto-slays level 9 & below - in a 10 level game. There is no attack table; advancement in combat ability depends largely on the vagaries of the level-up table. There is no resurrection, but death is not instant, it's quite a drawn out process, but without the ease of saving someone in 5e etc, it actually feels MORE "Fantasy Vietnam" when the PCs are desperately trying to hit the 15 to stabilise their fallen buddy before he bleeds out. Self-stabilising requires a nat 20, which is just cruel but adds to the feeling.
Quote from: S'mon on April 21, 2025, 02:04:58 PMQuote from: Aglondir on April 20, 2025, 05:28:40 PMHow is Tales of the Valiant doing?
After the OGL debacle, Kolbold Press launched a KS for TotV. It was meant to be a non-OGL 5E, with some of their own changes:
QuoteThe big-picture goals for Tales of the Valiant are:
1) Make the rules easier to read, understand, and use.
2) Reduce GM burden with encounter-building tools, exploration encounter tools, social encounter tools, and more.
3) Rebalance some existing elements such as feats (now known as talents) and subclasses.
4) Provide opportunities for PCs to make meaningful choices throughout every level of play.
5) Make spellcasting cooler.
6) Keep combat interesting for martial characters.
10,057 backers pledged $1,151,914. Delivered on April 2024, so it's been about a year. Did Shadowdark and/or 5.5E steal the thunder?
I printed out Black Flag, the free OGL version - it's very nicely done, the monsters are far better done than 5e & the magic item prices are great ...for 5e. It's basically standard 5e, so there's no real reason to convert. Just use the bits you want in your 5e game.
My opinion of Shadowdark is pretty close to SHARK's - those who dismiss it probably haven't played it IMO. There is a ton of cool stuff that's not obvious on a quick read-through. And it's very cleverly placed to attract both grognards and people who want 5e-lite.
I've effectively played it because I've played 5e and I've played Dungeon Crawl Classics. I'm sure people are having a good time with it because those games are pretty fun.
Quote from: Valatar on April 21, 2025, 02:12:12 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on April 21, 2025, 08:11:17 AMI don't think so. It might for a millisecond, but its sales are nowhere near what Pathfinder 1e was in its heyday.
Despite my hatred of it, Pathfinder 2 is doing reasonably well. Here are the stats from the Foundry VTT team at the end of last year:
(https://i.imgur.com/hvsjLGg.png)
Can they maintain it? No idea. I certainly believe it's nowhere as ubiquitous as PF1 had been at its height; 5e took a lot of the market share back from them. I'd expect the numbers to be at least reversed from back when PF1 was outselling 4e, so this represents a big drop from their height.
Yeah. I think sales over several years are important, and I'm not sure how well Kickstarter represents the enduring market for a given game. From the last few years, here are the TTRPG Kickstarter or Backerkit campaigns for standalone games (non-5E) that got two million or more:
(2024) $14.6M : Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere RPG
(2021) $9.5M : Avatar Legends: The Roleplaying Game
(2023) $4.6M : MCDM RPG: Draw Steel
(2019) $3.4M : Zombicide 2nd edition
(2024) $2.9M : Terry Pratchett's Discworld RPG
(2024) $2.2M : DC20
(2022) $2.1M : Old Gods of Appalachia Roleplaying Game
(2023) $2.0M : The Magnus Archives Roleplaying Game
(2021) $2.0M : THE ONE RING RPG, 2nd edition
The big question is how well these translate into continuing play and sales.
Quote from: Socratic-DM on April 20, 2025, 03:32:50 PMtheir best bet is to simply license more successful video games from the IP if they want to make real money. the market cap on video games is at this point larger than the film industry.
I agree with all of your post, but this part, while 1000% true, is maybe not super important to the central point of, "what's going down with tabletop games". It's still a good insight about what makes D&D really valuable, and it's that it's a small contender in the same bracket as Wolverine, Mickey Mouse, and Luke Skywalker; it has a minor but apparently permanent place in culture and isn't just a set of roleplaying game rules.
Quote from: Valatar on April 20, 2025, 05:27:40 PMEconomically Pathfinder is going to "take over" in the sense of being the largest remaining market share still putting out new content, despite Pathfinder 2 being complete shit as a game.
I totally disagree, Valatar. D&D 5.5 won't fail so hard it falls behind Pathfinder 2e. I think 5.5 D&D will have more tables than 5.0 D&D, but even if it doesn't, there's no way 5.0 D&D is gonna fall behind Pathfinder 2, and all supplements coming out now tend to advertise themselves as compatible with both rulesets (in reality they are either built for one or the other, but if you're running a table you'll eventually figure out that there's a substantial difference in monster difficulty by CR and adjust).
But Pathfinder 2 is a hot mess in terms of its market penetration. It's well put together, but its revised edition has changed the packaging on literally everything (plus made a bunch of substantial changes), making it essentially a 2.5 for them, and this is now a small community split into two games with some people getting mad if you use the "wrong" one. It has never had the prominence of Pathfinder 1e, which was compatible out of the box with a decade of WotC and 3pp content, and which immediately spread itself to well defined concepts for classes. By contrast Pathfinder 2e is this perfectly balanced pile of mechanics and synergies and only appeals to gamers who are fans of such tactical shenanigans.
I just feel it is limited in its appeal as a straight derivation of its design and content.
Quote from: Valatar on April 21, 2025, 02:12:12 PMDespite my hatred of it, Pathfinder 2 is doing reasonably well. Here are the stats from the Foundry VTT team at the end of last year:
(https://i.imgur.com/hvsjLGg.png)
If you were going to play Pathfinder 2e, I think the odds that you are using Foundry are really high. By contrast, roll20 used to publish stats like:
https://blog.roll20.net/posts/the-orr-report-q3-2021/
Which shows the end of 2021 being 50% 5e and 1.4% PF2e. Now I'm sure those stats are different today, but I think Foundry has better integration for PF2e tables. I think those percentages are a little cooked, is my point.
Quote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 06:50:35 PMLet all the haters cry. SHADOWDARK is getting bigger and bigger. SHADOWDARK is going to continue going from success to success. SGADOWDARK is more and more popular, EVERY DAY.
The recent Shadowdark KS broke 2.4 MILLION DOLLARS. Easy.
More third-party creators are creating stuff for Shadowdark. More interviews, more coverage, more people playing and DMing Shadowdark than ever before.
The haters can choke on it.
I wonder if I qualify as a Shadowdark hater. Something about it has always put me off, and the game isn't at all what I want. But I'm barely an OSR guy by comparison to the rest of this forum; I buy OSR products and shove OSR elements into my otherwise-modern games, which makes me I guess an
OSR consumer, so like, whatever, it's adjacent? I mentioned stars and worlds without number to my players but they didn't seem responsive so I moved past for now, but I still have a game world that I may run for them with those rulesets in the future.
Unlike ACKS, Sine Nomine products, and Hyperborea though, there's absolutely nothing I see in Shadowdark that I want to run (or play).
Quote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 09:35:02 PM*Laughing* Yeah, my friend! The absolute hatred, jealousy, the seething envy I have seen from a good number of the haters is just disgusting, and pathetic.
Is this all on twitter? I don't see redditors shitting on it, and I don't see people here shitting on it. Unless by "seething envy" you mean something pretty minor and are exaggerating maybe?
QuoteYeah, Shadowdark is inspired from many ideas from many different games. And then, DOES IT ALL BETTER!
See to me this seems like it may be talking at the fact that Shadowdark hypers often don't know about the games that inspired Shadowdark, and go and give incorrect credit. It would be like a Model-T driver loving his brand new card and citing as a reason that Ford invented cars. He's not wrong to be hyped, but his reason is going to grate on anyone who hears it. It's not seething or whatever to point that out.
QuoteThey choked. They don't have Shadowdark's organization, presentation, diverse inspirations, and style. That's why no one gives a fuck about their shrieking favourite game, and why so many people love Shadowdark. Simplicity, style, art, presentation, modularity, FUN. A STACK of fucking reasons why so many people love Shadowdark.
No one I know in meatspace has ever heard of it. If I wanted them to be interested, I'd have to pitch it the same way it's been pitched; it has a lot of elements and rules from 5e, while being OSR. Basing enough of the rules on 5e instead of something much older was an extraordinarily smart decision, because the playerbase that are willing to try the product is much larger as a direct result of that call.
But here's my bigger problem; your bellowing all generally praises the fact that the game is
good and that it is
popular. Being popular doesn't mean it's
better than other games; if that were the case, then someone should be "roaring with laughter at all the bitter losers crying about some failed game" but all because they are playing D&D 5e and are talking about, not just Shadowdark, but the entire OSR. Popular doesn't mean "best". Sure, a popular thing isn't going to be
bad, but popularity comes from things like "advertising" and "networking" as well as the intrinsic quality of the thing- in a marketing fight between a few good things and a few great things, the most popular will often be whichever one has the best product placement or advertising, not necessarily the best one intrinsically. Two amazing Shadowdark kickstarters are not full of players who played every OSR thing on the market and decided hers was best; it's full of 5e players who were exposed to Shadowdark (which was namedropped by several content creators who never mentioned OSR before) and liked it. Those people might love other OSR products more, should they ever check them out.
QuoteKelsey is an excellent game designer, and an excellent writer.
And so is Macris, but if I go on reddit and say that
I'll be banned- it's in their fucking rules.
Anybody shits on Kelsey at their peril, sure. But who is even doing that? Like I know I don't get around to all the tweetfaces and booktagrams but
are there even fucking haters?
QuoteTime to enjoy some fresh coffee, my friend! Stay strong, brother!
This is you
before coffee? Holy moly!
You also compared it to Pathfinder 2e. That made me think, I'd actually like to know what the story is there, between those two. You seem pretty confident that it's bigger than PF2E. I suspect it's the other way around, but I wouldn't bet on PF2e staying above it for all that much longer. Pathfinder has a loyal set of players but I think they've recruited all that they can. Every player I know has heard of or played Pathfinder (probably not 2e, but in general), and none of them are playing or running it right now. To me that means that something about it was hard for them to understand or get into and then they just walked away because it doesn't have any network effect comparatively.
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 21, 2025, 08:10:18 AMNah. As you can see, she hasn't yet learned to be a real camera hog. She just does walk-throughs for now.
She's still so small and she's already a star!
Quote from: S'mon on April 21, 2025, 02:04:58 PMQuote from: Aglondir on April 20, 2025, 05:28:40 PMHow is Tales of the Valiant doing?
After the OGL debacle, Kolbold Press launched a KS for TotV. It was meant to be a non-OGL 5E, with some of their own changes:
QuoteThe big-picture goals for Tales of the Valiant are:
1) Make the rules easier to read, understand, and use.
2) Reduce GM burden with encounter-building tools, exploration encounter tools, social encounter tools, and more.
3) Rebalance some existing elements such as feats (now known as talents) and subclasses.
4) Provide opportunities for PCs to make meaningful choices throughout every level of play.
5) Make spellcasting cooler.
6) Keep combat interesting for martial characters.
10,057 backers pledged $1,151,914. Delivered on April 2024, so it's been about a year. Did Shadowdark and/or 5.5E steal the thunder?
I printed out Black Flag, the free OGL version - it's very nicely done, the monsters are far better done than 5e & the magic item prices are great ...for 5e. It's basically standard 5e, so there's no real reason to convert. Just use the bits you want in your 5e game.
My opinion of Shadowdark is pretty close to SHARK's - those who dismiss it probably haven't played it IMO. There is a ton of cool stuff that's not obvious on a quick read-through. And it's very cleverly placed to attract both grognards and people who want 5e-lite.
Greetings!
Damn right, S'mon! Good stuff, my friend!
This here is what was "in my Cornflakes" before I got started with my commentary with Rob Necronomicon. Rob just inspired me to think about the hysterical and seething hatred that some gamers have for Shadowdark, and Kelsey.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Whoa that is insane seething.
I don't even know what I'm listening to. This guy has 112 subscribers and an automated reader that screws up almost every emPHAsis conceivable.
The only game that can replace D&D is D&D. Not some pretender to the throne or some agenda laden trash marketed as D&D, or some fake "revival".
Quote from: Omega on April 21, 2025, 05:50:25 PMThe only game that can replace D&D is D&D. Not some pretender to the throne or some agenda laden trash marketed as D&D, or some fake "revival".
Well, Pathfinder did during the relatively disastrous 4e. If 5 1/2e ends up splatting similarly, maybe something might take its place but I agree that it's at best a *very* long shot.
Quote from: Venka on April 21, 2025, 04:28:26 PMQuoteTime to enjoy some fresh coffee, my friend! Stay strong, brother!
This is you before coffee? Holy moly!
Greetings!
Hello, Venka! *Laughing* Yeah, I can be in rare form when I have not had my coffee!
I wouldn't consider you a "Hater", Venka. Shadowdark is merely not your preference, as you like other kinds of games, as you said. A member here, Jeff, is a huge fan of Traveler. Tenbones, another member, is a huge fan of yet a different game as well. I imagine there are some uber fans of Palladium/Rifts. Having different preferences for whatever mechanics, theme, subject, style, and so on, is not a problem at all. Certainly not from me. For example, I don't like Traveler. I have absolutely nothing negative or hostile or critical to say about Traveler, far beyond then also having anything negative to say about the creator of Traveler, or the gamers that love Traveler, like Jeff.
Why?
Because I just don't really like any game based on science-fiction. I have very little interest in any RPG that deals with a time-subject beyond the Medieval period. Thus, I have nothing to say about Traveler, Star Wars, Aliens, Mecha games, Cyberpunk, et al.
I'm very much an Ancient History/Dark Ages/Medievalist person. *Laughing*
I should have included it here, but I will simply reference the video thing I posted previously, of some Shadowdark hater that did a whole video showcasing his hatred and contempt for Shadowdark as a game, Kelsey Dione the creator, and anyone and everyone that is a fan of Shadowdark. So, yeah, there are haters on YouTube. I don't do anything with Twitter, or Reddit or whatever. There's hatred just on YouTube. These kinds of hateful, ill-mannered troglodytes also show up in the comment section on actual fans of Shadowdark, as well as on Livestream commentary scrolls and so on. There's never many of them, but always a few, and they tend towards always being very loud, rude, and insulting.
Another example; On "Geek Gamers"--the host did a video walk through and discussion on "SoloDark"--the solo RPG rules for Shadowdark. Lots of positive, and interesting commentary and comments in her comment section. Very cool, interesting, and informative video. But then, there were a few morons that felt some deep-seated need to jump into the comment section, criticize and disparage the host for talking about Shadowdark, and then went on to discuss why they thought Shadowdark was absolute garbage.
That kind of behavior makes me want to chew on nails. *Laughing*
I also very much appreciate Alexander Macris. Macris is very talented, bright, and skilled. ACKS is a great game.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on April 21, 2025, 05:11:22 PMQuote from: S'mon on April 21, 2025, 02:04:58 PMQuote from: Aglondir on April 20, 2025, 05:28:40 PMHow is Tales of the Valiant doing?
After the OGL debacle, Kolbold Press launched a KS for TotV. It was meant to be a non-OGL 5E, with some of their own changes:
QuoteThe big-picture goals for Tales of the Valiant are:
1) Make the rules easier to read, understand, and use.
2) Reduce GM burden with encounter-building tools, exploration encounter tools, social encounter tools, and more.
3) Rebalance some existing elements such as feats (now known as talents) and subclasses.
4) Provide opportunities for PCs to make meaningful choices throughout every level of play.
5) Make spellcasting cooler.
6) Keep combat interesting for martial characters.
10,057 backers pledged $1,151,914. Delivered on April 2024, so it's been about a year. Did Shadowdark and/or 5.5E steal the thunder?
I printed out Black Flag, the free OGL version - it's very nicely done, the monsters are far better done than 5e & the magic item prices are great ...for 5e. It's basically standard 5e, so there's no real reason to convert. Just use the bits you want in your 5e game.
My opinion of Shadowdark is pretty close to SHARK's - those who dismiss it probably haven't played it IMO. There is a ton of cool stuff that's not obvious on a quick read-through. And it's very cleverly placed to attract both grognards and people who want 5e-lite.
Greetings!
Damn right, S'mon! Good stuff, my friend!
This here is what was "in my Cornflakes" before I got started with my commentary with Rob Necronomicon. Rob just inspired me to think about the hysterical and seething hatred that some gamers have for Shadowdark, and Kelsey.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
The Youtuber named himself "Tabletop Truth". Lol. Putting "Truth" in your name while spouting Reddit trash levels of retarded commentary is so fucking pretentious.
Quote from: SHARK on April 21, 2025, 06:12:16 PMQuote from: Venka on April 21, 2025, 04:28:26 PMQuoteTime to enjoy some fresh coffee, my friend! Stay strong, brother!
This is you before coffee? Holy moly!
Greetings!
Hello, Venka! *Laughing* Yeah, I can be in rare form when I have not had my coffee!
I wouldn't consider you a "Hater", Venka. Shadowdark is merely not your preference, as you like other kinds of games, as you said. A member here, Jeff, is a huge fan of Traveler. Tenbones, another member, is a huge fan of yet a different game as well. I imagine there are some uber fans of Palladium/Rifts. Having different preferences for whatever mechanics, theme, subject, style, and so on, is not a problem at all. Certainly not from me. For example, I don't like Traveler. I have absolutely nothing negative or hostile or critical to say about Traveler, far beyond then also having anything negative to say about the creator of Traveler, or the gamers that love Traveler, like Jeff.
Why?
Because I just don't really like any game based on science-fiction. I have very little interest in any RPG that deals with a time-subject beyond the Medieval period. Thus, I have nothing to say about Traveler, Star Wars, Aliens, Mecha games, Cyberpunk, et al.
I'm very much an Ancient History/Dark Ages/Medievalist person. *Laughing*
I should have included it here, but I will simply reference the video thing I posted previously, of some Shadowdark hater that did a whole video showcasing his hatred and contempt for Shadowdark as a game, Kelsey Dione the creator, and anyone and everyone that is a fan of Shadowdark. So, yeah, there are haters on YouTube. I don't do anything with Twitter, or Reddit or whatever. There's hatred just on YouTube. These kinds of hateful, ill-mannered troglodytes also show up in the comment section on actual fans of Shadowdark, as well as on Livestream commentary scrolls and so on. There's never many of them, but always a few, and they tend towards always being very loud, rude, and insulting.
Another example; On "Geek Gamers"--the host did a video walk through and discussion on "SoloDark"--the solo RPG rules for Shadowdark. Lots of positive, and interesting commentary and comments in her comment section. Very cool, interesting, and informative video. But then, there were a few morons that felt some deep-seated need to jump into the comment section, criticize and disparage the host for talking about Shadowdark, and then went on to discuss why they thought Shadowdark was absolute garbage.
That kind of behavior makes me want to chew on nails. *Laughing*
I also very much appreciate Alexander Macris. Macris is very talented, bright, and skilled. ACKS is a great game.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
It's worth noting that you have these over the top histrionic reactions to any criticism of the game or its fans, even if they don't say it in a mean way, so I don't really believe your descriptions of what other people are saying.
Quote from: Venka on April 21, 2025, 05:43:53 PMWhoa that is insane seething.
I don't even know what I'm listening to. This guy has 112 subscribers and an automated reader that screws up almost every emPHAsis conceivable.
Unlistenable. Seems like he's one of those who tries to drum up views by attacking something popular. Which is still meatriding.
Unsure why he had to mention that Kelsey is (supposedly) a lesbian, and therefore "beyond reproach". I've never heard a peep about her sexuality from her or anyone (nor do I care), and I've heard lots of criticism of Shadowdark besides.
Dude sounds like a jealous hack trying to drum up views by mentioning the currently popular game. He somehow ends up being more unlistenable than Tenkar.
Quote from: Spobo on April 21, 2025, 06:23:35 PMQuote from: SHARK on April 21, 2025, 06:12:16 PMQuote from: Venka on April 21, 2025, 04:28:26 PMQuoteTime to enjoy some fresh coffee, my friend! Stay strong, brother!
This is you before coffee? Holy moly!
Greetings!
Hello, Venka! *Laughing* Yeah, I can be in rare form when I have not had my coffee!
I wouldn't consider you a "Hater", Venka. Shadowdark is merely not your preference, as you like other kinds of games, as you said. A member here, Jeff, is a huge fan of Traveler. Tenbones, another member, is a huge fan of yet a different game as well. I imagine there are some uber fans of Palladium/Rifts. Having different preferences for whatever mechanics, theme, subject, style, and so on, is not a problem at all. Certainly not from me. For example, I don't like Traveler. I have absolutely nothing negative or hostile or critical to say about Traveler, far beyond then also having anything negative to say about the creator of Traveler, or the gamers that love Traveler, like Jeff.
Why?
Because I just don't really like any game based on science-fiction. I have very little interest in any RPG that deals with a time-subject beyond the Medieval period. Thus, I have nothing to say about Traveler, Star Wars, Aliens, Mecha games, Cyberpunk, et al.
I'm very much an Ancient History/Dark Ages/Medievalist person. *Laughing*
I should have included it here, but I will simply reference the video thing I posted previously, of some Shadowdark hater that did a whole video showcasing his hatred and contempt for Shadowdark as a game, Kelsey Dione the creator, and anyone and everyone that is a fan of Shadowdark. So, yeah, there are haters on YouTube. I don't do anything with Twitter, or Reddit or whatever. There's hatred just on YouTube. These kinds of hateful, ill-mannered troglodytes also show up in the comment section on actual fans of Shadowdark, as well as on Livestream commentary scrolls and so on. There's never many of them, but always a few, and they tend towards always being very loud, rude, and insulting.
Another example; On "Geek Gamers"--the host did a video walk through and discussion on "SoloDark"--the solo RPG rules for Shadowdark. Lots of positive, and interesting commentary and comments in her comment section. Very cool, interesting, and informative video. But then, there were a few morons that felt some deep-seated need to jump into the comment section, criticize and disparage the host for talking about Shadowdark, and then went on to discuss why they thought Shadowdark was absolute garbage.
That kind of behavior makes me want to chew on nails. *Laughing*
I also very much appreciate Alexander Macris. Macris is very talented, bright, and skilled. ACKS is a great game.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
It's worth noting that you have these over the top histrionic reactions to any criticism of the game or its fans, even if they don't say it in a mean way, so I don't really believe your descriptions of what other people are saying.
Greetings!
Well, Spobo, I don't think that your characterization of me is true, or accurate at all. In any event, I get tired of the stupid, baseless criticisms and arrogant attacks against Shadowdark, and generally, the gamers that enjoy Shadowdark. So, yeaah. I will blast them back ruthlessly. They deserve it in full.
As for "You don't believe" my descriptions of what others have said about Shadwdark? Ok, man. Whatever. Believe whatever you want. I posted a video previously of *precisely* the kind of arrogant, snotty, hate-filled and jealous ranting attacks made against Shadowdark. PROOF. There you go.
You don't believe me? WTF man?. Go pound sand then.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
unless this 'dnd replacer' provides many solutions to configure the scale of both martials and casters, on a sliding scale from 'peak humans/people with magic tricks' to 'Goku(or Superman)/Doctor Strange(or Dark Schneider)', it's not a 'dnd replacer'
Quote from: Spobo on April 21, 2025, 06:23:35 PMQuote from: SHARK on April 21, 2025, 06:12:16 PMQuote from: Venka on April 21, 2025, 04:28:26 PMQuoteTime to enjoy some fresh coffee, my friend! Stay strong, brother!
This is you before coffee? Holy moly!
Greetings!
Hello, Venka! *Laughing* Yeah, I can be in rare form when I have not had my coffee!
I wouldn't consider you a "Hater", Venka. Shadowdark is merely not your preference, as you like other kinds of games, as you said. A member here, Jeff, is a huge fan of Traveler. Tenbones, another member, is a huge fan of yet a different game as well. I imagine there are some uber fans of Palladium/Rifts. Having different preferences for whatever mechanics, theme, subject, style, and so on, is not a problem at all. Certainly not from me. For example, I don't like Traveler. I have absolutely nothing negative or hostile or critical to say about Traveler, far beyond then also having anything negative to say about the creator of Traveler, or the gamers that love Traveler, like Jeff.
Why?
Because I just don't really like any game based on science-fiction. I have very little interest in any RPG that deals with a time-subject beyond the Medieval period. Thus, I have nothing to say about Traveler, Star Wars, Aliens, Mecha games, Cyberpunk, et al.
I'm very much an Ancient History/Dark Ages/Medievalist person. *Laughing*
I should have included it here, but I will simply reference the video thing I posted previously, of some Shadowdark hater that did a whole video showcasing his hatred and contempt for Shadowdark as a game, Kelsey Dione the creator, and anyone and everyone that is a fan of Shadowdark. So, yeah, there are haters on YouTube. I don't do anything with Twitter, or Reddit or whatever. There's hatred just on YouTube. These kinds of hateful, ill-mannered troglodytes also show up in the comment section on actual fans of Shadowdark, as well as on Livestream commentary scrolls and so on. There's never many of them, but always a few, and they tend towards always being very loud, rude, and insulting.
Another example; On "Geek Gamers"--the host did a video walk through and discussion on "SoloDark"--the solo RPG rules for Shadowdark. Lots of positive, and interesting commentary and comments in her comment section. Very cool, interesting, and informative video. But then, there were a few morons that felt some deep-seated need to jump into the comment section, criticize and disparage the host for talking about Shadowdark, and then went on to discuss why they thought Shadowdark was absolute garbage.
That kind of behavior makes me want to chew on nails. *Laughing*
I also very much appreciate Alexander Macris. Macris is very talented, bright, and skilled. ACKS is a great game.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
It's worth noting that you have these over the top histrionic reactions to any criticism of the game or its fans, even if they don't say it in a mean way, so I don't really believe your descriptions of what other people are saying.
It's worth noting that Shark has over the top reactions to everything. "Full blast, all the time" is kinda his schtick. His reaction to the Shadowdark haters is neither atypical nor suspect.
Quote from: SHARK on April 21, 2025, 06:12:16 PMQuote from: Venka on April 21, 2025, 04:28:26 PMQuoteTime to enjoy some fresh coffee, my friend! Stay strong, brother!
This is you before coffee? Holy moly!
Greetings!
Hello, Venka! *Laughing* Yeah, I can be in rare form when I have not had my coffee!
I wouldn't consider you a "Hater", Venka. Shadowdark is merely not your preference, as you like other kinds of games, as you said. A member here, Jeff, is a huge fan of Traveller. Tenbones, another member, is a huge fan of yet a different game as well. I imagine there are some uber fans of Palladium/Rifts. Having different preferences for whatever mechanics, theme, subject, style, and so on, is not a problem at all. Certainly not from me. For example, I don't like Traveller. I have absolutely nothing negative or hostile or critical to say about Traveller, far beyond then also having anything negative to say about the creator of Traveller, or the gamers that love Traveller, like Jeff.
Why?
Because I just don't really like any game based on science-fiction. I have very little interest in any RPG that deals with a time-subject beyond the Medieval period. Thus, I have nothing to say about Traveller, Star Wars, Aliens, Mecha games, Cyberpunk, et al.
I'm very much an Ancient History/Dark Ages/Medievalist person. *Laughing*
-snip-
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
You invoke my name and yet you cannot spell my favorite game correctly? And to think that my branch ubers your branch all over Hell.... :p
One aspect of Traveller that you might wish to consider though is the Trade & Commerce rules. While wars and fighting were historically important during the medieval period, it was merchants and the spread of trade which drove expansion and exploration of empires in medieval times.
Quote from: jeff37923 on April 21, 2025, 08:52:23 PMOne aspect of Traveller that you might wish to consider though is the Trade & Commerce rules. While wars and fighting were historically important during the medieval period, it was merchants and the spread of trade which drove expansion and exploration of empires in medieval times.
That's great for those that might want that, but in my experience, trying to get most players interested in the economic game of the setting is a great way to drive the table towards enthusiastic disinterst in playing.
Quote from: jeff37923 on April 21, 2025, 08:52:23 PMQuote from: SHARK on April 21, 2025, 06:12:16 PMQuote from: Venka on April 21, 2025, 04:28:26 PMQuoteTime to enjoy some fresh coffee, my friend! Stay strong, brother!
This is you before coffee? Holy moly!
Greetings!
Hello, Venka! *Laughing* Yeah, I can be in rare form when I have not had my coffee!
I wouldn't consider you a "Hater", Venka. Shadowdark is merely not your preference, as you like other kinds of games, as you said. A member here, Jeff, is a huge fan of Traveller. Tenbones, another member, is a huge fan of yet a different game as well. I imagine there are some uber fans of Palladium/Rifts. Having different preferences for whatever mechanics, theme, subject, style, and so on, is not a problem at all. Certainly not from me. For example, I don't like Traveller. I have absolutely nothing negative or hostile or critical to say about Traveller, far beyond then also having anything negative to say about the creator of Traveller, or the gamers that love Traveller, like Jeff.
Why?
Because I just don't really like any game based on science-fiction. I have very little interest in any RPG that deals with a time-subject beyond the Medieval period. Thus, I have nothing to say about Traveller, Star Wars, Aliens, Mecha games, Cyberpunk, et al.
I'm very much an Ancient History/Dark Ages/Medievalist person. *Laughing*
-snip-
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
You invoke my name and yet you cannot spell my favorite game correctly? And to think that my branch ubers your branch all over Hell.... :p
One aspect of Traveller that you might wish to consider though is the Trade & Commerce rules. While wars and fighting were historically important during the medieval period, it was merchants and the spread of trade which drove expansion and exploration of empires in medieval times.
Greetings!
*Laughing* Ahh, yes, Jeff! TRAVELLER! I've heard now a few times people have praised Traveller's Trade & Commerce rules. You are right, Jeff. I probably should grab a copy and check that out.
Even when my Players are not directly involved with Trade & Commerce, such matters frequently are interwoven into the mix of plots, adventures, and character motivations and goals. The Players, for example, might discover that Lord Simon of Glaymonte has forced the local Halfling population to live in squalor amidst harsh and brutal Halfling Ghettos, in order to improve the land for grazing herds of Zebra-Aurochs. The local market has a strong demand for Zebra-Aurochs, but more importantly, distant foreign markets have in recent years gained a huge increase in demand for Zebra-Auroch meat, hides, and furs. Lord Simon and his family-owned corporation, Glaymonte Ranching, stands to gain immense profits from positioning themselves as a premier supplier of Zebra-Auroch meat. *Laughing* Economics, trade, and the juice of commerce are often at play in everything in the campaign world, whether the Players are fully conscious of such elements or not.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Venka on April 21, 2025, 05:43:53 PMWhoa that is insane seething.
I don't even know what I'm listening to. This guy has 112 subscribers and an automated reader that screws up almost every emPHAsis conceivable.
Greetings!
Yes, Venka, very true. Absolute insane levels of seething hatred. It is mind boggling to me. Kelsey is nice, charming, gracious, and funny in every podcast I have seen her in. She is always professional, and always passionate about *gaming* and the OSR. The game Shadowdark reflects her solid commitment and professionalism in regards to the OSR and gaming in general--you would think that kind of passion, enthusiasm, commitment, and professionalism, would generate great enthusiasm and respect from gamers within the OSR, and yet, weirdly, there is this vocal minority of absolute jackasses that have nothing but hatred, contempt, and scorn towards Kelsey and Shadowdark. And, as seen in the video, also other fans and gamers that enjoy and support Shadowdark.
That kind of hatred, arrogance, lying, mischaracterization, hypocrisy, and general intellectual dishonesty makes me want to chew nails. I tolerate listening to these morons only for so long, before they need to be chomped on in response. They, their ideas and attitudes, need a strong response in counter.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: JanDevries on April 21, 2025, 06:32:14 PMQuote from: Venka on April 21, 2025, 05:43:53 PMWhoa that is insane seething.
I don't even know what I'm listening to. This guy has 112 subscribers and an automated reader that screws up almost every emPHAsis conceivable.
Unlistenable. Seems like he's one of those who tries to drum up views by attacking something popular. Which is still meatriding.
Unsure why he had to mention that Kelsey is (supposedly) a lesbian, and therefore "beyond reproach". I've never heard a peep about her sexuality from her or anyone (nor do I care), and I've heard lots of criticism of Shadowdark besides.
Dude sounds like a jealous hack trying to drum up views by mentioning the currently popular game. He somehow ends up being more unlistenable than Tenkar.
Greetings!
"MEATRIDING"!!!
*Laughing* JanDevries, so hilarious! I snorted my coffee laughing so much from this!
Yeah, while these kinds of morons are a minority, a person doesn't have to go to Reddit or Twitter or some other gutter to find them. They jump into Livestreams hosted by people discussing Shadowdark all the time, or jump into comment threads of videos that are talking about Shadowdark.
I find it to be so bizarre that the vast majority of these idiots do not own the Shadowdark book, and yet, Kelsey and Shadowdark live rent-free in their minds, so much so that they carry around this weird hatred, and jump at every opportunity they come across, to attack, denigrate, and disparage Kelsey, Shadowdark, and gamers that embrace Shadowdark.
Absolutely mind-boggling.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: HappyDaze on April 21, 2025, 10:43:42 PMQuote from: jeff37923 on April 21, 2025, 08:52:23 PMOne aspect of Traveller that you might wish to consider though is the Trade & Commerce rules. While wars and fighting were historically important during the medieval period, it was merchants and the spread of trade which drove expansion and exploration of empires in medieval times.
That's great for those that might want that, but in my experience, trying to get most players interested in the economic game of the setting is a great way to drive the table towards enthusiastic disinterst in playing.
You don't have to force players into an economic game for the setting in order to use economics as a driving force for NPCs. Just read SHARK's response to my post to see an example.
Quote from: jeff37923 on April 22, 2025, 12:23:45 AMQuote from: HappyDaze on April 21, 2025, 10:43:42 PMQuote from: jeff37923 on April 21, 2025, 08:52:23 PMOne aspect of Traveller that you might wish to consider though is the Trade & Commerce rules. While wars and fighting were historically important during the medieval period, it was merchants and the spread of trade which drove expansion and exploration of empires in medieval times.
That's great for those that might want that, but in my experience, trying to get most players interested in the economic game of the setting is a great way to drive the table towards enthusiastic disinterst in playing.
You don't have to force players into an economic game for the setting in order to use economics as a driving force for NPCs. Just read SHARK's response to my post to see an example.
If it's just being used for NPC motivations, do you really need a system for it?
Quote from: HappyDaze on April 22, 2025, 12:37:47 AMQuote from: jeff37923 on April 22, 2025, 12:23:45 AMQuote from: HappyDaze on April 21, 2025, 10:43:42 PMQuote from: jeff37923 on April 21, 2025, 08:52:23 PMOne aspect of Traveller that you might wish to consider though is the Trade & Commerce rules. While wars and fighting were historically important during the medieval period, it was merchants and the spread of trade which drove expansion and exploration of empires in medieval times.
That's great for those that might want that, but in my experience, trying to get most players interested in the economic game of the setting is a great way to drive the table towards enthusiastic disinterst in playing.
You don't have to force players into an economic game for the setting in order to use economics as a driving force for NPCs. Just read SHARK's response to my post to see an example.
If it's just being used for NPC motivations, do you really need a system for it?
It helps the suspension of disbelief if you have an idea of how something works. The system Traveller has is not a perfect model, but it works for a game.
Quote from: jeff37923 on April 22, 2025, 02:34:18 AMQuote from: HappyDaze on April 22, 2025, 12:37:47 AMQuote from: jeff37923 on April 22, 2025, 12:23:45 AMQuote from: HappyDaze on April 21, 2025, 10:43:42 PMQuote from: jeff37923 on April 21, 2025, 08:52:23 PMOne aspect of Traveller that you might wish to consider though is the Trade & Commerce rules. While wars and fighting were historically important during the medieval period, it was merchants and the spread of trade which drove expansion and exploration of empires in medieval times.
That's great for those that might want that, but in my experience, trying to get most players interested in the economic game of the setting is a great way to drive the table towards enthusiastic disinterst in playing.
You don't have to force players into an economic game for the setting in order to use economics as a driving force for NPCs. Just read SHARK's response to my post to see an example.
If it's just being used for NPC motivations, do you really need a system for it?
It helps the suspension of disbelief if you have an idea of how something works. The system Traveller has is not a perfect model, but it works for a game.
Fair enough. It wouldn't really make me want to play the game, but if it's internally consistent, then it's doing far better than most games do regarding their economics.
Quote from: SHARK on April 21, 2025, 11:38:08 PMQuote from: JanDevries on April 21, 2025, 06:32:14 PMQuote from: Venka on April 21, 2025, 05:43:53 PMWhoa that is insane seething.
I don't even know what I'm listening to. This guy has 112 subscribers and an automated reader that screws up almost every emPHAsis conceivable.
Unlistenable. Seems like he's one of those who tries to drum up views by attacking something popular. Which is still meatriding.
Unsure why he had to mention that Kelsey is (supposedly) a lesbian, and therefore "beyond reproach". I've never heard a peep about her sexuality from her or anyone (nor do I care), and I've heard lots of criticism of Shadowdark besides.
Dude sounds like a jealous hack trying to drum up views by mentioning the currently popular game. He somehow ends up being more unlistenable than Tenkar.
Greetings!
"MEATRIDING"!!!
*Laughing* JanDevries, so hilarious! I snorted my coffee laughing so much from this!
Yeah, while these kinds of morons are a minority, a person doesn't have to go to Reddit or Twitter or some other gutter to find them. They jump into Livestreams hosted by people discussing Shadowdark all the time, or jump into comment threads of videos that are talking about Shadowdark.
I find it to be so bizarre that the vast majority of these idiots do not own the Shadowdark book, and yet, Kelsey and Shadowdark live rent-free in their minds, so much so that they carry around this weird hatred, and jump at every opportunity they come across, to attack, denigrate, and disparage Kelsey, Shadowdark, and gamers that embrace Shadowdark.
Absolutely mind-boggling.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Why would they own the book? It's 30 dollars and the free version already gives you everything you need to know about it.
Quote from: SHARK on April 21, 2025, 07:26:30 PMQuote from: Spobo on April 21, 2025, 06:23:35 PMQuote from: SHARK on April 21, 2025, 06:12:16 PMQuote from: Venka on April 21, 2025, 04:28:26 PMQuoteTime to enjoy some fresh coffee, my friend! Stay strong, brother!
This is you before coffee? Holy moly!
Greetings!
Hello, Venka! *Laughing* Yeah, I can be in rare form when I have not had my coffee!
I wouldn't consider you a "Hater", Venka. Shadowdark is merely not your preference, as you like other kinds of games, as you said. A member here, Jeff, is a huge fan of Traveler. Tenbones, another member, is a huge fan of yet a different game as well. I imagine there are some uber fans of Palladium/Rifts. Having different preferences for whatever mechanics, theme, subject, style, and so on, is not a problem at all. Certainly not from me. For example, I don't like Traveler. I have absolutely nothing negative or hostile or critical to say about Traveler, far beyond then also having anything negative to say about the creator of Traveler, or the gamers that love Traveler, like Jeff.
Why?
Because I just don't really like any game based on science-fiction. I have very little interest in any RPG that deals with a time-subject beyond the Medieval period. Thus, I have nothing to say about Traveler, Star Wars, Aliens, Mecha games, Cyberpunk, et al.
I'm very much an Ancient History/Dark Ages/Medievalist person. *Laughing*
I should have included it here, but I will simply reference the video thing I posted previously, of some Shadowdark hater that did a whole video showcasing his hatred and contempt for Shadowdark as a game, Kelsey Dione the creator, and anyone and everyone that is a fan of Shadowdark. So, yeah, there are haters on YouTube. I don't do anything with Twitter, or Reddit or whatever. There's hatred just on YouTube. These kinds of hateful, ill-mannered troglodytes also show up in the comment section on actual fans of Shadowdark, as well as on Livestream commentary scrolls and so on. There's never many of them, but always a few, and they tend towards always being very loud, rude, and insulting.
Another example; On "Geek Gamers"--the host did a video walk through and discussion on "SoloDark"--the solo RPG rules for Shadowdark. Lots of positive, and interesting commentary and comments in her comment section. Very cool, interesting, and informative video. But then, there were a few morons that felt some deep-seated need to jump into the comment section, criticize and disparage the host for talking about Shadowdark, and then went on to discuss why they thought Shadowdark was absolute garbage.
That kind of behavior makes me want to chew on nails. *Laughing*
I also very much appreciate Alexander Macris. Macris is very talented, bright, and skilled. ACKS is a great game.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
It's worth noting that you have these over the top histrionic reactions to any criticism of the game or its fans, even if they don't say it in a mean way, so I don't really believe your descriptions of what other people are saying.
Greetings!
Well, Spobo, I don't think that your characterization of me is true, or accurate at all. In any event, I get tired of the stupid, baseless criticisms and arrogant attacks against Shadowdark, and generally, the gamers that enjoy Shadowdark. So, yeaah. I will blast them back ruthlessly. They deserve it in full.
As for "You don't believe" my descriptions of what others have said about Shadwdark? Ok, man. Whatever. Believe whatever you want. I posted a video previously of *precisely* the kind of arrogant, snotty, hate-filled and jealous ranting attacks made against Shadowdark. PROOF. There you go.
You don't believe me? WTF man?. Go pound sand then.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
You have an absolute meltdown every single time the topic gets brought up, almost unprompted.
That's one video with barely any views. The last time this whole thing came up there were exactly two people with barely any views saying anything negative at all, that being Venger and Red Room. Then Pundit got dragged into it and had to explain to people that he was neither Venger nor Red Room and was fine with the game. There were also a handful of nobodies on twitter.
I'm sure some people say nasty things wherever you go but it's such a non-issue. What really gets me is that you use those people as a crutch to avoid anyone who has legitimate criticism.
For example you said this before:
"Shadowdark takes many ideas, blends them together, and presents them with polish, simplicity, modularity, and *style*. All these shriking morons cry about their dweeb game in a fucking basement. They choked. They don't have Shadowdark's organization, presentation, diverse inspirations, and style. That's why no one gives a fuck about their shrieking favourite game, and why so many people love Shadowdark. Simplicity, style, art, presentation, modularity, FUN. A STACK of fucking reasons why so many people love Shadowdark."
Lots of games do have Shadowdark's "diverse inspirations", "style", art, and modularity. The primary thing it adds is the polish, organization, and presentation. Sure, that's great. But you're being unnecessarily arrogant and shrill for no reason. It's this kind of over the top bloviating about how it's the greatest thing since sliced bread and has NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE that makes people have a negative reaction.
I don't even know which "favourite game" you're referring to or who said that, because usually what people correctly point out is that it isn't a single game, it's a movement of games called the OSR. People usually like several games within it. If I had to pick one, the one that Shadowdark borrows from the most, it would be Dungeon Crawl Classics. DCC isn't an obscure game no one has heard of, it's a pretty successful long-term moneymaker for Goodman Games you can find in a lot of game stores. I know for certain that Kelsey herself has heard of it, both because she clearly derived a lot of Shadowdark from it, and because she told me in a youtube comment.
Quote from: Spobo on April 22, 2025, 10:14:00 AMQuote from: SHARK on April 21, 2025, 07:26:30 PMQuote from: Spobo on April 21, 2025, 06:23:35 PMQuote from: SHARK on April 21, 2025, 06:12:16 PMQuote from: Venka on April 21, 2025, 04:28:26 PMQuoteTime to enjoy some fresh coffee, my friend! Stay strong, brother!
This is you before coffee? Holy moly!
Greetings!
Hello, Venka! *Laughing* Yeah, I can be in rare form when I have not had my coffee!
I wouldn't consider you a "Hater", Venka. Shadowdark is merely not your preference, as you like other kinds of games, as you said. A member here, Jeff, is a huge fan of Traveler. Tenbones, another member, is a huge fan of yet a different game as well. I imagine there are some uber fans of Palladium/Rifts. Having different preferences for whatever mechanics, theme, subject, style, and so on, is not a problem at all. Certainly not from me. For example, I don't like Traveler. I have absolutely nothing negative or hostile or critical to say about Traveler, far beyond then also having anything negative to say about the creator of Traveler, or the gamers that love Traveler, like Jeff.
Why?
Because I just don't really like any game based on science-fiction. I have very little interest in any RPG that deals with a time-subject beyond the Medieval period. Thus, I have nothing to say about Traveler, Star Wars, Aliens, Mecha games, Cyberpunk, et al.
I'm very much an Ancient History/Dark Ages/Medievalist person. *Laughing*
I should have included it here, but I will simply reference the video thing I posted previously, of some Shadowdark hater that did a whole video showcasing his hatred and contempt for Shadowdark as a game, Kelsey Dione the creator, and anyone and everyone that is a fan of Shadowdark. So, yeah, there are haters on YouTube. I don't do anything with Twitter, or Reddit or whatever. There's hatred just on YouTube. These kinds of hateful, ill-mannered troglodytes also show up in the comment section on actual fans of Shadowdark, as well as on Livestream commentary scrolls and so on. There's never many of them, but always a few, and they tend towards always being very loud, rude, and insulting.
Another example; On "Geek Gamers"--the host did a video walk through and discussion on "SoloDark"--the solo RPG rules for Shadowdark. Lots of positive, and interesting commentary and comments in her comment section. Very cool, interesting, and informative video. But then, there were a few morons that felt some deep-seated need to jump into the comment section, criticize and disparage the host for talking about Shadowdark, and then went on to discuss why they thought Shadowdark was absolute garbage.
That kind of behavior makes me want to chew on nails. *Laughing*
I also very much appreciate Alexander Macris. Macris is very talented, bright, and skilled. ACKS is a great game.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
It's worth noting that you have these over the top histrionic reactions to any criticism of the game or its fans, even if they don't say it in a mean way, so I don't really believe your descriptions of what other people are saying.
Greetings!
Well, Spobo, I don't think that your characterization of me is true, or accurate at all. In any event, I get tired of the stupid, baseless criticisms and arrogant attacks against Shadowdark, and generally, the gamers that enjoy Shadowdark. So, yeaah. I will blast them back ruthlessly. They deserve it in full.
As for "You don't believe" my descriptions of what others have said about Shadwdark? Ok, man. Whatever. Believe whatever you want. I posted a video previously of *precisely* the kind of arrogant, snotty, hate-filled and jealous ranting attacks made against Shadowdark. PROOF. There you go.
You don't believe me? WTF man?. Go pound sand then.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
You have an absolute meltdown every single time the topic gets brought up, almost unprompted.
That's one video with barely any views. The last time this whole thing came up there were exactly two people with barely any views saying anything negative at all, that being Venger and Red Room. Then Pundit got dragged into it and had to explain to people that he was neither Venger nor Red Room and was fine with the game. There were also a handful of nobodies on twitter.
I'm sure some people say nasty things wherever you go but it's such a non-issue. What really gets me is that you use those people as a crutch to avoid anyone who has legitimate criticism.
For example you said this before:
"Shadowdark takes many ideas, blends them together, and presents them with polish, simplicity, modularity, and *style*. All these shriking morons cry about their dweeb game in a fucking basement. They choked. They don't have Shadowdark's organization, presentation, diverse inspirations, and style. That's why no one gives a fuck about their shrieking favourite game, and why so many people love Shadowdark. Simplicity, style, art, presentation, modularity, FUN. A STACK of fucking reasons why so many people love Shadowdark."
Lots of games do have Shadowdark's "diverse inspirations", "style", art, and modularity. The primary thing it adds is the polish, organization, and presentation. Sure, that's great. But you're being unnecessarily arrogant and shrill for no reason. It's this kind of over the top bloviating about how it's the greatest thing since sliced bread and has NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE that makes people have a negative reaction.
I don't even know which "favourite game" you're referring to or who said that, because usually what people correctly point out is that it isn't a single game, it's a movement of games called the OSR. People usually like several games within it. If I had to pick one, the one that Shadowdark borrows from the most, it would be Dungeon Crawl Classics. DCC isn't an obscure game no one has heard of, it's a pretty successful long-term moneymaker for Goodman Games you can find in a lot of game stores. I know for certain that Kelsey herself has heard of it, both because she clearly derived a lot of Shadowdark from it, and because she told me in a youtube comment.
Greetings!
*Laughing* I use the example people as a crutch to avoid anyone with legitimate criticism? Geesus. That's BS. I totally disagree with you. Most "legitimate criticism" is really just emotionally-based shrieking and hatred rooted in jealousy and envy. Oh, and also truckloads of absolute hypocrisy.
Anyone that likes OSE, DCC, Dragonslayer, Minotaurs & Mazes, et. al, should logically have a positive assessment of Shadowdark. Failing to do so is from what I have seen, again, mostly rooted in emotionalism, hatred, jealousy, and absolutely mind-boggling levels of hypocrisy. Perhaps one of the greatest strengths of Shadowdark is that as I have mentioned in many previous Shadowdark threads--many before you joined here, for example--is that Shadowdark takes many inspirations and elements from different sources, and pits them all together in one book. Many other OSR games don't do that as well, or in the same smooth way that Shadowdark does so. Next, Shadowdark embraces so many good elements, while simultaneously avoiding embracing serious flaws that many other games in the OSR have. Like DCC, for example. Too bloated, too many charts, just too many rules. And crazy dice. And interweaving a much higher degree of Gonzo throughout. All of that kind of problems--Shadowdark avoids.
Again though, much like my commentary about science fiction based RPG's, if a person really prefers DCC, well, fine. What rationale would such a person have for hating Shadowdark? Some people like Pathfinder. Some people love OSE, or the Minotaur game. Or Dragonslayer. Preferences is not the problem. The problem is seething hatred, intellectual dishonesty, hypocrisy, jealousy, and envy.
An example of a legitimate "criticism"--if that is even necessary--is say, "Well, I love lots of crunch, and Shadowdark is certainly less on crunch. That's why I love Pathfinder. Or DCC." Or, "I've already invested in OSE, have all the books, and don't want to change systems." Ok, fine. You, I think, have a difficult time actually identifying what the difference is between a legitimate criticism and emotionally-based BS. Actually think about the nuances of what I am saying here, and pointing out.
In my view, Shadowdark embraces all of the standards cherished in the OSR--and the true, deeper beauty, is that Shadowdark embraces these virtues and elements *without* getting tripped up with a bunch of over-wrought mechanics, endless rules, or other BS. That powerful dynamic in my mind is an absolute HUGE win for Shadowdark, and makes Shadowdark a strong and clear winner beyond most other games in the OSR. Editing, organization, layout, presentation, all of that are certainly powerful, and very present with Shadowdark. Many other games in the OSR are retarded and like baby cows in comparison to Shadowdark. Their owners and management have far less understanding of what great editing, organization, layout, presentation, and marketing can mean for a game product. *Within* those absolutely critical elements--which so many morons sneeringly dismiss--is a key attribute that builds in a foundational factor on why Shadowdark is so popular. And so hugely successful, also when compared to many other games in the OSR. That salient and compelling factor is "Less is More". What you include in such a game product is important, but also perhaps even more so, is what you CHOOSE TO EXCLUDE, OR CUT OUT.
Shadowdark has successfully done this, embraced this key dynamic, where so many others HAVE FAILED.
You can see this within the pages of the rules themselves. Also, however, within the rationale and aruments that many Shadowdark fans have described. Why do they prefer Shadowdark? Why are they shelving other games and converting their campaigns over to Shadowdark? What I have discussed are powerful elements that are seen with Shadowdark fans again and again, even if they do not use my exact phrasing or terminology.
As an aside, yeah, just having the free sample try out rules doesn't provide a comprehensive base for truly knowing about the game. YOU might think that when the gibbering morons spew that, that such is sufficient. I don't. If you cannot be bothered to own the complete rule book, then your assessment is significantly compromised, right off the bat.
Shadowdark is an excellent game system, very well designed, and beautifully presented. Shadowdark is brilliantly minimalist, while simultaneously providing a solid and strong framework for a DM to add *only* the additional elements desired for their campaign--without needing to wade through a swamp of things that they don't want.
If someone prefers a different game system, then great! ENJOY THAT OTHER SYSTEM. That is no reason to hate Shadowdark though.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Dude: where is the setting and over-arching concept of ShadowdarK? What is the game-world? How is it different from every abstract TTRPG that has come out in recent decades? What makes it different besides a torch mechanic and a few old-school rules variations, like roll-to-cast?
Seriously? Where is the beef? This game hasn't done a damn thing. Now maybe someone will come up with something great to go along with the rule set, and that will be great --I will fully support
but right now, this is a black-and-white min0book produced by some chick, and it isn't anything impressive
and like I said, it is a perfectly good system, but it is nothing outstanding and impressive. If it were written by a guy, it would have made 10k and vanished within a couple months
A minor correction to the video, the Creative Commons Attribution license doesn't require the person to share their work. There are two important requirements: attribution and the second is only relevant if the author decides to open up their work under a license.
This wasn't true of the OGL, which states that all open content used and anything based on it still had to be shared as open content under the same terms.
To highlight the difference. You can use the D&D 5e 5.1 SRD (the previous version) under the OGL or under the CC-BY license. If you make a RPG based on that and used the OGL version then you would have to make all the stuff based on the SRD open content under the OGL. If you used the CC-BY version you don't and all you have to do is include the attribution.
In contrast the folks at Atlas Games released the entire Ars Magica 5e product line under CC-BY-SA. The Creative Commons Attribution Share-alike. So if you make anything based on that content you have to share the text of your entire work under the same license.
Which would allow Atlas Games to use your content, except they would be required to share anything they created with your content under the same terms.
The main issue with using Creative Common is that it meant to license an entire book at once. Unlike the OGL, ORC, AELF it doesn't distinguish open context from content still under copyright. Which for works that is 100% original to the author not really an issue. But if you were trying to adapted the Ars Magica system to a licensed IP like Game of Thrones, Middle Earth, then that wouldn't happen because the IP holder would be required to put their content under the share-alike license as well.
But it not a problem with CC-BY licensed content like the D&D 5e SRD as you are not required to share the result with others.
Quote from: Spobo on April 22, 2025, 10:14:00 AMQuote from: SHARK on April 21, 2025, 07:26:30 PMQuote from: Spobo on April 21, 2025, 06:23:35 PMQuote from: SHARK on April 21, 2025, 06:12:16 PMQuote from: Venka on April 21, 2025, 04:28:26 PMQuoteTime to enjoy some fresh coffee, my friend! Stay strong, brother!
This is you before coffee? Holy moly!
Greetings!
Hello, Venka! *Laughing* Yeah, I can be in rare form when I have not had my coffee!
I wouldn't consider you a "Hater", Venka. Shadowdark is merely not your preference, as you like other kinds of games, as you said. A member here, Jeff, is a huge fan of Traveler. Tenbones, another member, is a huge fan of yet a different game as well. I imagine there are some uber fans of Palladium/Rifts. Having different preferences for whatever mechanics, theme, subject, style, and so on, is not a problem at all. Certainly not from me. For example, I don't like Traveler. I have absolutely nothing negative or hostile or critical to say about Traveler, far beyond then also having anything negative to say about the creator of Traveler, or the gamers that love Traveler, like Jeff.
Why?
Because I just don't really like any game based on science-fiction. I have very little interest in any RPG that deals with a time-subject beyond the Medieval period. Thus, I have nothing to say about Traveler, Star Wars, Aliens, Mecha games, Cyberpunk, et al.
I'm very much an Ancient History/Dark Ages/Medievalist person. *Laughing*
I should have included it here, but I will simply reference the video thing I posted previously, of some Shadowdark hater that did a whole video showcasing his hatred and contempt for Shadowdark as a game, Kelsey Dione the creator, and anyone and everyone that is a fan of Shadowdark. So, yeah, there are haters on YouTube. I don't do anything with Twitter, or Reddit or whatever. There's hatred just on YouTube. These kinds of hateful, ill-mannered troglodytes also show up in the comment section on actual fans of Shadowdark, as well as on Livestream commentary scrolls and so on. There's never many of them, but always a few, and they tend towards always being very loud, rude, and insulting.
Another example; On "Geek Gamers"--the host did a video walk through and discussion on "SoloDark"--the solo RPG rules for Shadowdark. Lots of positive, and interesting commentary and comments in her comment section. Very cool, interesting, and informative video. But then, there were a few morons that felt some deep-seated need to jump into the comment section, criticize and disparage the host for talking about Shadowdark, and then went on to discuss why they thought Shadowdark was absolute garbage.
That kind of behavior makes me want to chew on nails. *Laughing*
I also very much appreciate Alexander Macris. Macris is very talented, bright, and skilled. ACKS is a great game.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
It's worth noting that you have these over the top histrionic reactions to any criticism of the game or its fans, even if they don't say it in a mean way, so I don't really believe your descriptions of what other people are saying.
Greetings!
Well, Spobo, I don't think that your characterization of me is true, or accurate at all. In any event, I get tired of the stupid, baseless criticisms and arrogant attacks against Shadowdark, and generally, the gamers that enjoy Shadowdark. So, yeaah. I will blast them back ruthlessly. They deserve it in full.
As for "You don't believe" my descriptions of what others have said about Shadwdark? Ok, man. Whatever. Believe whatever you want. I posted a video previously of *precisely* the kind of arrogant, snotty, hate-filled and jealous ranting attacks made against Shadowdark. PROOF. There you go.
You don't believe me? WTF man?. Go pound sand then.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
You have an absolute meltdown every single time the topic gets brought up, almost unprompted.
That's one video with barely any views. The last time this whole thing came up there were exactly two people with barely any views saying anything negative at all, that being Venger and Red Room. Then Pundit got dragged into it and had to explain to people that he was neither Venger nor Red Room and was fine with the game. There were also a handful of nobodies on twitter.
I'm sure some people say nasty things wherever you go but it's such a non-issue. What really gets me is that you use those people as a crutch to avoid anyone who has legitimate criticism.
For example you said this before:
"Shadowdark takes many ideas, blends them together, and presents them with polish, simplicity, modularity, and *style*. All these shriking morons cry about their dweeb game in a fucking basement. They choked. They don't have Shadowdark's organization, presentation, diverse inspirations, and style. That's why no one gives a fuck about their shrieking favourite game, and why so many people love Shadowdark. Simplicity, style, art, presentation, modularity, FUN. A STACK of fucking reasons why so many people love Shadowdark."
Lots of games do have Shadowdark's "diverse inspirations", "style", art, and modularity. The primary thing it adds is the polish, organization, and presentation. Sure, that's great. But you're being unnecessarily arrogant and shrill for no reason. It's this kind of over the top bloviating about how it's the greatest thing since sliced bread and has NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE that makes people have a negative reaction.
I don't even know which "favourite game" you're referring to or who said that, because usually what people correctly point out is that it isn't a single game, it's a movement of games called the OSR. People usually like several games within it. If I had to pick one, the one that Shadowdark borrows from the most, it would be Dungeon Crawl Classics. DCC isn't an obscure game no one has heard of, it's a pretty successful long-term moneymaker for Goodman Games you can find in a lot of game stores. I know for certain that Kelsey herself has heard of it, both because she clearly derived a lot of Shadowdark from it, and because she told me in a youtube comment.
Meltdown? He always posts like this. There's literally no difference between Shark posting about Shadowdark and Shark posting about anything else, except the targets of his ire. What are you even talking about?
I certainly like "roll to cast". It helps keep the casters, a little closer to the martials, in overall damage output.
But it has appeared in other games, too.
I think I have a slight disagreement with SHARK in that I think you can get a good sense of Shadowdark by playing the free Quick start for 2-3 levels, although adding in the Carousing table (there's a pic of it on the SD website) helps a lot. My experience was that what you can't do is get a sense of the game just from skimming the rules. It was recommended to me by a friend so I got the Quick start, but on first glance it just looked like a nicely laid out retro clone. And I was sceptical after Pundit had accused the creator of buying paid reviews. It was when I ran it that I realised how cleverly it was designed.
Quote from: Spobo on April 22, 2025, 09:57:22 AMWhy would they own the book? It's 30 dollars and the free version already gives you everything you need to know about it.
If you made a video about Mork Borg based on the free version you'd be skipping over the impossible to find anything and eye melting graphic design. Your video would be very, very incomplete. Shadowdark is the same except in a positive way. If you are gonna review the the thing, review the thing properly. Even a PDF would be better than just going by the free version.
Quote from: Man at Arms on April 22, 2025, 10:59:46 PMI certainly like "roll to cast". It helps keep the casters, a little closer to the martials, in overall damage output.
But it has appeared in other games, too.
Same here on the roll to cast. It does add tension to the game. And this was also seen in the Into the Unknown rpg that was released in 2019.
I prefer roll to cast as well both as a way to add tension to magic in game but also as a simple replacement for spell slots and/or magic point record keeping. I wouldn't personally want to use it in conjunction with them though.
Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on April 22, 2025, 07:46:45 PMDude: where is the setting and over-arching concept of ShadowdarK? What is the game-world? How is it different from every abstract TTRPG that has come out in recent decades? What makes it different besides a torch mechanic and a few old-school rules variations, like roll-to-cast?
Seriously? Where is the beef? This game hasn't done a damn thing. Now maybe someone will come up with something great to go along with the rule set, and that will be great --I will fully support
but right now, this is a black-and-white min0book produced by some chick, and it isn't anything impressive
and like I said, it is a perfectly good system, but it is nothing outstanding and impressive. If it were written by a guy, it would have made 10k and vanished within a couple months
Yeah cuz there are no successful kickstarters by dudes. Lol get a load of this incel.
Quote from: jhkim on April 21, 2025, 03:07:10 PMQuote from: Valatar on April 21, 2025, 02:12:12 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on April 21, 2025, 08:11:17 AMI don't think so. It might for a millisecond, but its sales are nowhere near what Pathfinder 1e was in its heyday.
Despite my hatred of it, Pathfinder 2 is doing reasonably well. Here are the stats from the Foundry VTT team at the end of last year:
(https://i.imgur.com/hvsjLGg.png)
Can they maintain it? No idea. I certainly believe it's nowhere as ubiquitous as PF1 had been at its height; 5e took a lot of the market share back from them. I'd expect the numbers to be at least reversed from back when PF1 was outselling 4e, so this represents a big drop from their height.
Yeah. I think sales over several years are important, and I'm not sure how well Kickstarter represents the enduring market for a given game. From the last few years, here are the TTRPG Kickstarter or Backerkit campaigns for standalone games (non-5E) that got two million or more:
(2024) $14.6M : Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere RPG
(2021) $9.5M : Avatar Legends: The Roleplaying Game
(2023) $4.6M : MCDM RPG: Draw Steel
(2019) $3.4M : Zombicide 2nd edition
(2024) $2.9M : Terry Pratchett's Discworld RPG
(2024) $2.2M : DC20
(2022) $2.1M : Old Gods of Appalachia Roleplaying Game
(2023) $2.0M : The Magnus Archives Roleplaying Game
(2021) $2.0M : THE ONE RING RPG, 2nd edition
The big question is how well these translate into continuing play and sales.
I think that list is your answer. Virtually all of the above made a huge bank, and then just vanished. No one talks about them or plays them, mostly.
Quote from: estar on April 22, 2025, 08:21:30 PMA minor correction to the video, the Creative Commons Attribution license doesn't require the person to share their work. There are two important requirements: attribution and the second is only relevant if the author decides to open up their work under a license.
This wasn't true of the OGL, which states that all open content used and anything based on it still had to be shared as open content under the same terms.
To highlight the difference. You can use the D&D 5e 5.1 SRD (the previous version) under the OGL or under the CC-BY license. If you make a RPG based on that and used the OGL version then you would have to make all the stuff based on the SRD open content under the OGL. If you used the CC-BY version you don't and all you have to do is include the attribution.
In contrast the folks at Atlas Games released the entire Ars Magica 5e product line under CC-BY-SA. The Creative Commons Attribution Share-alike. So if you make anything based on that content you have to share the text of your entire work under the same license.
Which would allow Atlas Games to use your content, except they would be required to share anything they created with your content under the same terms.
The main issue with using Creative Common is that it meant to license an entire book at once. Unlike the OGL, ORC, AELF it doesn't distinguish open context from content still under copyright. Which for works that is 100% original to the author not really an issue. But if you were trying to adapted the Ars Magica system to a licensed IP like Game of Thrones, Middle Earth, then that wouldn't happen because the IP holder would be required to put their content under the share-alike license as well.
But it not a problem with CC-BY licensed content like the D&D 5e SRD as you are not required to share the result with others.
Yes, I misspoke. I was talking about the license on D&D beyond or whatever. The one where anything published there, Wizards has the right to use in full and pay you nothing.
Quote from: Man at Arms on April 22, 2025, 10:59:46 PMI certainly like "roll to cast". It helps keep the casters, a little closer to the martials, in overall damage output.
But it has appeared in other games, too.
DCC, and my games. And some others.
Quote from: SHARK on April 22, 2025, 07:15:27 PMQuote from: Spobo on April 22, 2025, 10:14:00 AMQuote from: SHARK on April 21, 2025, 07:26:30 PMQuote from: Spobo on April 21, 2025, 06:23:35 PMQuote from: SHARK on April 21, 2025, 06:12:16 PMQuote from: Venka on April 21, 2025, 04:28:26 PMQuoteTime to enjoy some fresh coffee, my friend! Stay strong, brother!
This is you before coffee? Holy moly!
Greetings!
Hello, Venka! *Laughing* Yeah, I can be in rare form when I have not had my coffee!
I wouldn't consider you a "Hater", Venka. Shadowdark is merely not your preference, as you like other kinds of games, as you said. A member here, Jeff, is a huge fan of Traveler. Tenbones, another member, is a huge fan of yet a different game as well. I imagine there are some uber fans of Palladium/Rifts. Having different preferences for whatever mechanics, theme, subject, style, and so on, is not a problem at all. Certainly not from me. For example, I don't like Traveler. I have absolutely nothing negative or hostile or critical to say about Traveler, far beyond then also having anything negative to say about the creator of Traveler, or the gamers that love Traveler, like Jeff.
Why?
Because I just don't really like any game based on science-fiction. I have very little interest in any RPG that deals with a time-subject beyond the Medieval period. Thus, I have nothing to say about Traveler, Star Wars, Aliens, Mecha games, Cyberpunk, et al.
I'm very much an Ancient History/Dark Ages/Medievalist person. *Laughing*
I should have included it here, but I will simply reference the video thing I posted previously, of some Shadowdark hater that did a whole video showcasing his hatred and contempt for Shadowdark as a game, Kelsey Dione the creator, and anyone and everyone that is a fan of Shadowdark. So, yeah, there are haters on YouTube. I don't do anything with Twitter, or Reddit or whatever. There's hatred just on YouTube. These kinds of hateful, ill-mannered troglodytes also show up in the comment section on actual fans of Shadowdark, as well as on Livestream commentary scrolls and so on. There's never many of them, but always a few, and they tend towards always being very loud, rude, and insulting.
Another example; On "Geek Gamers"--the host did a video walk through and discussion on "SoloDark"--the solo RPG rules for Shadowdark. Lots of positive, and interesting commentary and comments in her comment section. Very cool, interesting, and informative video. But then, there were a few morons that felt some deep-seated need to jump into the comment section, criticize and disparage the host for talking about Shadowdark, and then went on to discuss why they thought Shadowdark was absolute garbage.
That kind of behavior makes me want to chew on nails. *Laughing*
I also very much appreciate Alexander Macris. Macris is very talented, bright, and skilled. ACKS is a great game.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
It's worth noting that you have these over the top histrionic reactions to any criticism of the game or its fans, even if they don't say it in a mean way, so I don't really believe your descriptions of what other people are saying.
Greetings!
Well, Spobo, I don't think that your characterization of me is true, or accurate at all. In any event, I get tired of the stupid, baseless criticisms and arrogant attacks against Shadowdark, and generally, the gamers that enjoy Shadowdark. So, yeaah. I will blast them back ruthlessly. They deserve it in full.
As for "You don't believe" my descriptions of what others have said about Shadwdark? Ok, man. Whatever. Believe whatever you want. I posted a video previously of *precisely* the kind of arrogant, snotty, hate-filled and jealous ranting attacks made against Shadowdark. PROOF. There you go.
You don't believe me? WTF man?. Go pound sand then.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
You have an absolute meltdown every single time the topic gets brought up, almost unprompted.
That's one video with barely any views. The last time this whole thing came up there were exactly two people with barely any views saying anything negative at all, that being Venger and Red Room. Then Pundit got dragged into it and had to explain to people that he was neither Venger nor Red Room and was fine with the game. There were also a handful of nobodies on twitter.
I'm sure some people say nasty things wherever you go but it's such a non-issue. What really gets me is that you use those people as a crutch to avoid anyone who has legitimate criticism.
For example you said this before:
"Shadowdark takes many ideas, blends them together, and presents them with polish, simplicity, modularity, and *style*. All these shriking morons cry about their dweeb game in a fucking basement. They choked. They don't have Shadowdark's organization, presentation, diverse inspirations, and style. That's why no one gives a fuck about their shrieking favourite game, and why so many people love Shadowdark. Simplicity, style, art, presentation, modularity, FUN. A STACK of fucking reasons why so many people love Shadowdark."
Lots of games do have Shadowdark's "diverse inspirations", "style", art, and modularity. The primary thing it adds is the polish, organization, and presentation. Sure, that's great. But you're being unnecessarily arrogant and shrill for no reason. It's this kind of over the top bloviating about how it's the greatest thing since sliced bread and has NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE that makes people have a negative reaction.
I don't even know which "favourite game" you're referring to or who said that, because usually what people correctly point out is that it isn't a single game, it's a movement of games called the OSR. People usually like several games within it. If I had to pick one, the one that Shadowdark borrows from the most, it would be Dungeon Crawl Classics. DCC isn't an obscure game no one has heard of, it's a pretty successful long-term moneymaker for Goodman Games you can find in a lot of game stores. I know for certain that Kelsey herself has heard of it, both because she clearly derived a lot of Shadowdark from it, and because she told me in a youtube comment.
Greetings!
*Laughing* I use the example people as a crutch to avoid anyone with legitimate criticism? Geesus. That's BS. I totally disagree with you. Most "legitimate criticism" is really just emotionally-based shrieking and hatred rooted in jealousy and envy. Oh, and also truckloads of absolute hypocrisy.
Anyone that likes OSE, DCC, Dragonslayer, Minotaurs & Mazes, et. al, should logically have a positive assessment of Shadowdark. Failing to do so is from what I have seen, again, mostly rooted in emotionalism, hatred, jealousy, and absolutely mind-boggling levels of hypocrisy. Perhaps one of the greatest strengths of Shadowdark is that as I have mentioned in many previous Shadowdark threads--many before you joined here, for example--is that Shadowdark takes many inspirations and elements from different sources, and pits them all together in one book. Many other OSR games don't do that as well, or in the same smooth way that Shadowdark does so. Next, Shadowdark embraces so many good elements, while simultaneously avoiding embracing serious flaws that many other games in the OSR have. Like DCC, for example. Too bloated, too many charts, just too many rules. And crazy dice. And interweaving a much higher degree of Gonzo throughout. All of that kind of problems--Shadowdark avoids.
Again though, much like my commentary about science fiction based RPG's, if a person really prefers DCC, well, fine. What rationale would such a person have for hating Shadowdark? Some people like Pathfinder. Some people love OSE, or the Minotaur game. Or Dragonslayer. Preferences is not the problem. The problem is seething hatred, intellectual dishonesty, hypocrisy, jealousy, and envy.
An example of a legitimate "criticism"--if that is even necessary--is say, "Well, I love lots of crunch, and Shadowdark is certainly less on crunch. That's why I love Pathfinder. Or DCC." Or, "I've already invested in OSE, have all the books, and don't want to change systems." Ok, fine. You, I think, have a difficult time actually identifying what the difference is between a legitimate criticism and emotionally-based BS. Actually think about the nuances of what I am saying here, and pointing out.
In my view, Shadowdark embraces all of the standards cherished in the OSR--and the true, deeper beauty, is that Shadowdark embraces these virtues and elements *without* getting tripped up with a bunch of over-wrought mechanics, endless rules, or other BS. That powerful dynamic in my mind is an absolute HUGE win for Shadowdark, and makes Shadowdark a strong and clear winner beyond most other games in the OSR. Editing, organization, layout, presentation, all of that are certainly powerful, and very present with Shadowdark. Many other games in the OSR are retarded and like baby cows in comparison to Shadowdark. Their owners and management have far less understanding of what great editing, organization, layout, presentation, and marketing can mean for a game product. *Within* those absolutely critical elements--which so many morons sneeringly dismiss--is a key attribute that builds in a foundational factor on why Shadowdark is so popular. And so hugely successful, also when compared to many other games in the OSR. That salient and compelling factor is "Less is More". What you include in such a game product is important, but also perhaps even more so, is what you CHOOSE TO EXCLUDE, OR CUT OUT.
Shadowdark has successfully done this, embraced this key dynamic, where so many others HAVE FAILED.
You can see this within the pages of the rules themselves. Also, however, within the rationale and aruments that many Shadowdark fans have described. Why do they prefer Shadowdark? Why are they shelving other games and converting their campaigns over to Shadowdark? What I have discussed are powerful elements that are seen with Shadowdark fans again and again, even if they do not use my exact phrasing or terminology.
As an aside, yeah, just having the free sample try out rules doesn't provide a comprehensive base for truly knowing about the game. YOU might think that when the gibbering morons spew that, that such is sufficient. I don't. If you cannot be bothered to own the complete rule book, then your assessment is significantly compromised, right off the bat.
Shadowdark is an excellent game system, very well designed, and beautifully presented. Shadowdark is brilliantly minimalist, while simultaneously providing a solid and strong framework for a DM to add *only* the additional elements desired for their campaign--without needing to wade through a swamp of things that they don't want.
If someone prefers a different game system, then great! ENJOY THAT OTHER SYSTEM. That is no reason to hate Shadowdark though.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Okay you're just doing what I described again. You're getting way more emotional about this than anyone I've actually seen who doesn't like it.
Who is getting jealous and envious? Most people are not publishing their own games. I think you're talking about Venger again, who is one guy.
The criticism is not so much about the game itself as about its fans and the misleading way they present the game. It's a fine game and if someone invited me to play it at their table I'd play it (with some caveats). I do have some things I don't like about it just like I have things I don't like about lots of other OSR games. But it's a fine game largely because it's pieced together from other games and blogs.
This is what I mean when I say it's a constant motte and bailey argument.
The bailey is "Shadowdark is innovative and fresh, it brings old school gaming back, I really love new stuff like hex crawling, slot-based inventory, keeping track of resources, random tables, roll to cast, 0-level funnel, luck points, simplified classes, putting 5e advantage/disadvantage in an old school game", etc. etc.
As Pundit has pointed out this mainly comes from 5e players who have never played any other games, but other people repeat it freely as part of the word of mouth marketing.
When it gets pointed out that nothing it does is actually innovative or fresh for people who were paying attention the whole time, and all that stuff has been done before, including minimalism, you get a retreat to the motte:
"Sure, other games had all those things, but Shadowdark puts them all together in a nice slick package with a beautiful layout, it cuts out all the cruft," etc.
People constantly say the first one, when it's just blatantly not true, and then when called on it they go to the second one, which is mostly true. (It still has lots of parts I would consider unnecessary or cruft.) Then the next time it comes up they're back to the first one.
Then you get appeals to popularity and essentially "the real innovation is the friends we made along the way" and you're just a hater.
The response I usually get is "well what do you want??? you want Kelsey to tell everyone that she didn't invent the d20?? every RPG is built from other RPGs!"
It's not that extreme but I think some more public acknowledgement of the sources would be nice, at least from people hawking the game. The gold standard for this is Ben Milton who wrote Knave, another game that does something similar by combining lots of material from different OSR games and blogs and putting it together in a minimalist package with a nice layout (it also has more original ideas than Shadowdark does.) Knave has a dedicated section explaining all the influences on the game and the purpose behind them.
The various 5e clone games like Tales of the Valiant and Nimble are very upfront that they're 5e derivatives. Likewise most OSR games tell you that they're OSR. Shadowdark does not. The tagline is "old school gaming, modernized" which is vague and misleading. It isn't really based on OD&D, Basic, or AD&D. It's based on other games that came out in the last decade, and 5e. You can say this is just good marketing. Okay, so what?
I think Kelsey did take these criticisms to heart at least a little bit, because in the new kickstarter book there is a part acknowledging that the concept of a West Marches game came from someone else.
Quote from: Ruprecht on April 23, 2025, 09:57:49 AMQuote from: Spobo on April 22, 2025, 09:57:22 AMWhy would they own the book? It's 30 dollars and the free version already gives you everything you need to know about it.
If you made a video about Mork Borg based on the free version you'd be skipping over the impossible to find anything and eye melting graphic design. Your video would be very, very incomplete. Shadowdark is the same except in a positive way. If you are gonna review the the thing, review the thing properly. Even a PDF would be better than just going by the free version.
This is an absurd standard that no one here applies to any other games. Mork Borg is an even worse example because most players are going to end up using the rules summary in the back of the book for actual play, which means the contents of the free version.
The entire point of the Shadowdark free version is to give people the core of the game so they know what they're buying ahead of time. It's a good thing to do and it shows you what the system is like. I definitely appreciate that aspect of it.
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 25, 2025, 04:26:35 PMI think that list is your answer. Virtually all of the above made a huge bank, and then just vanished. No one talks about them or plays them, mostly.
Kickstarter is a terrible judge of if a game is successful or not, and there is such a long lag between the Kickstarter and delivery that most lose momentum.
Having said that Shadowdark's second Kickstarter shows they didn't lose momentum.
Its true, how many of the "big success" kickstarters that weren't already existing products actually ended up having any kind of longevity?
Likewise, how many "huge money" kickstarters ended up failing to deliver or the creator going broke due to mismanagement of budget?
Shadowdark seems to have avoided both of these however.
I could argue that all RPG's are replacements for D&D.
The issue is finding the one you like that your group will also play. That's a very short list.
Being free in PDF helps.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on April 28, 2025, 10:34:35 AMI could argue that all RPG's are replacements for D&D.
The issue is finding the one you like that your group will also play. That's a very short list.
Being free in PDF helps.
I agree. Also, I really don't get the obsession with some gamers where if the games isn't actively supported, it's a dead game.
A game is only dead if it's not played.
There are plenty of people who play older versions of D&D because 1. they like the version they play, so why change or 2. they tried the latest version and didn't like it.
Technically, I haven't played D&D since 2001 because I thought 3e wasn't good.
Shit, you can go to Knight & Knaves or Dragonsfoot and read of DMs and players who haven't switched from even older editions.
If it works for you and your group, playing an older version is ok. AS long as everyone has fun.
Which brings up another point: "modern" game design and mechanics. I really cannot stand the folks who think older versions of D&D are no good because the latest version is more "modern".
That means nothing.
They bitch an moan about descending AC, THAC0, why saving throws are the way they were, and so on. Guess what? I was able to figure this shit out without the aid of any of our modern conveniences (internet, computers, social media). I read the books multiple times, figured it out through play, and didn't worry about the details.
I laugh to myself when I'm on reddit and read about someone who clueless about how THAC0 works or how initiative is conducted. I mean, really?
Maybe the problem with the latest generation of players is they're too stupid to figure it out.
Sorry about the rant. It must be Monday...
I don't think pathfinder will take up slack from D&D's failure, they've burned too many bridges by going way off the deep end of woke. They went woke before D&D, they went woke stronger than D&D, and they're already struggling with the bloat of systems they created for 1st edition in order to extend the lifetime of the game without going to a new edition, only to end up going to a new edition anyways, which has shed off some of the people who enjoyed pathfinder.
I think there's going to be a lot of decentralization and balkanization of RPGs. I think anything that is big currently will shrink in size of people playing it, and I don't think anything will really get big again as different niche groups find their own rpgs to get behind. But that's just a prediction, I'm willing to accept that I could be wrong.
Quote from: blackstone on April 28, 2025, 02:35:10 PMI agree. Also, I really don't get the obsession with some gamers where if the games isn't actively supported, it's a dead game.
Sorry for the snippage, I do agree with all of your post, but this bit, your sentiment, that is what created TARGA which led to the OSR. Raggi, Maliszewski, Victor Ramon, myself and a few other congregated on a Yahoogroup and at first talked about these old games we love (beyond TSR, by the way) and formed TARGA to get people to PLAY them again just as the retroclones were emerging. And then a bunch of stuff happened, and here we are today.
Quote from: Banjo Destructo on April 28, 2025, 03:55:03 PMI don't think pathfinder will take up slack from D&D's failure, they've burned too many bridges by going way off the deep end of woke.
They seem to seemingly hide it better to casuals/normies though under just cutesy cringe but it's definitely there under the furry fetish surface. That said... I think the general community shift towards less is more mechanically might prevent them from picking up the slack with their decidedly crunchier game that harkens back to 3.x. I'd say that they might have a go at it if they came out with a really streamlined version that isn't so finely balanced for every +1 bonus available.
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 25, 2025, 04:31:38 PMYes, I misspoke. I was talking about the license on D&D beyond or whatever. The one where anything published there, Wizards has the right to use in full and pay you nothing.
I concur, especially most (not all) of the community content programs are basically traps for would-be RPG authors unless they focus on Setting IP. Even there it is iffy.
Quote from: Banjo Destructo on April 28, 2025, 03:55:03 PMI don't think pathfinder will take up slack from D&D's failure, they've burned too many bridges by going way off the deep end of woke. They went woke before D&D, they went woke stronger than D&D, and they're already struggling with the bloat of systems they created for 1st edition in order to extend the lifetime of the game without going to a new edition, only to end up going to a new edition anyways, which has shed off some of the people who enjoyed pathfinder.
I think there's going to be a lot of decentralization and balkanization of RPGs. I think anything that is big currently will shrink in size of people playing it, and I don't think anything will really get big again as different niche groups find their own rpgs to get behind. But that's just a prediction, I'm willing to accept that I could be wrong.
I personally have really enjoyed the balkanization periods in RPGs. I think the late 1980s and the early 2000s (before the d20 boom really hit) had some of the most innovative and varied games. But they were also when RPGs were relatively unpopular.
Tabletop RPGs have had a really strong network effect. People love to play when it's easy to find a group and the material is fairly familiar to everyone. So the most popular game gets even more popular because that's what most people know.