Greetings!

You know, if by circumstance or preference, you like playing D&D online with VTT and whatever--good for you. Go for it.

As for myself, I like getting together with my friends, in person, face-to-face. I enjoy ordering up food at a restaurant with them, or serving up food personally. I enjoy drinking together, and lighting up fine cigars. I enjoy making coffee for everyone. I enjoy hearing them laugh, and seeing their faces, their expressions, their antics. Hearing them scream in hatred or triumph.

I enjoy rolling dice and moving painted miniatures across the table.

I enjoy gaming together, with them. Face-to-face.

Fuck the digital BS. All that online digital BS will always and forever be a sad, poor substitute for what I described experiencing above.

In-person gaming is in my view, the absolute best. Simple as that. In-person gaming is what we as a community, as a hobby, should prioritize, emphasize, celebrate and promote.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on August 21, 2022, 08:24:12 PM
For example, where are the tabletop rpg campaign settings with an SRD and highly detailed wiki? Where are the house organs for tabletop RPG companies, in the form of monthly magazines? Where are the boxed sets for Basic D&D, or AD&D, or D&D 3.x with spell cards, psionic power cards, magic item cards, feat cards, non-weapon proficiency cards, thief skill cards, paladin ability cards, monster cards (with game stats), and more? Where are the game boards and dungeon tiles for specific adventure modules, for specific game systems?

Where are the boxed sets with random encounter cards, based upon location and time of day.....with game mechanics specifically translated into our game system of choice?

Publishing some book, and not giving a shit about the graphic design, art, and index is simply not going to cut it any more. If you wanna inject serotonin into people's tiny lizard brains, you need to visually stimulate them. And if you're publishing a game, what does the character sheet look like? Is it intuitive? Is it fun to look at? Or does it look like some incredibly obscure implementation of tax code instead?

Didn't I bring up having an Internet presence? Having a wiki, having an SRD, having a website, having an online storefront (on a site YOU control), having a blog (that you control), and having a forum (that you control). And yes, you could even hire someone to BUILD A FUCKING APP for your OSR game, and its campaign setting.

I agree with you 100% Sacrificial Lamb. At Autarch I offer my own webstore (AutarchEmporium.com), website (Autarch.co), forums (forum.autarch.co). In my most recent game, the Ascendant RPG, in addition to a book we offered full-color 3' x 2' battle maps of Capital City and a combat gauge marked off in game units, and we're developing an App to help people build characters. And Ascendant has been my most successful RPG so far.

The problem is that all of that costs time and money, and unless your game is already doing "pretty well" it is hard to throw more resources at it, especially when you're on the bleak side of a network effect. That said, I'm relatively grateful that my better-financed competitors don't do much of this sort of thing because if they did that'd make it even harder to compete.

This article pretty much sums it up for me. I didn't write it but it's my attitude.

https://thetabletopengineer.com/f/i-dont-hate-one-dd---i-just-dont-care?fbclid=IwAR1utY_ep7wNen00vKsNs0cGea3tf0y3b8bifoIjQLNlZhKXHgXladminmQ

It's easy to talk out of one ass and act like it's easy to find a face to face gaming table.

Sometimes it's easier to find digital versions of such tables. Myself I prefer both. I get some like the face to face aspect and if I could find the kind of game I want that way Jbwould.

Unfortunately beyond 5E and both editions of PF not much else in my area. I'm currently posting in a 1E campaign in Greyhawk and enjoying it immensely. I like being powerful yet also have to be careful about whatever we fight. I started as a first level Halfling Thief with 1HP.

Maybe some of you have the luxury of finding unlimited posters and DMs for the kind of RPGs you want to play/run. I unfortunately do not. Trying to run and/or play a game of Rifts or anything Palladium related is an exercise in futility. The flaky as fuck nature of both is embarrassing. 

In the end I find both digital and actual table experiences enjoyable. Either or are not fir everyone but I'm not going to assume my aycand only mind is the right way.

Quote from: TrueWOPR on August 21, 2022, 12:28:24 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on August 20, 2022, 01:01:32 PM
That's not really the direction they're taking this though. By the time this comes out it will have been TEN YEARS since the last edition came out, and they've kept the errata EXTREMELY low, and even these changes are not a new edition but using the old edition with additions and some slight tweaks. You can't push that "oh it's going to be errat'ed every month" line with zero evidence. Even Gary thought updating the rules every decade was a reasonable path for a game.

You're aware of how often they errataed or retconned 5e though, right?

Yes. The answer is "extremely little," relative to the two prior editions.

QuoteMy point with outlining "D&D as a live service" was the possibility of such

Anything is possible of course but given there is zero evidence to support that contention for 10 years now for this game, I think it's a low probability possibility.

Quotecouple this with the censorship we've seen in the past two years

Is this about the WOTC breaking into your house to steal or books and mark them up? Damn those guy suck.

Unless you mean some other REAL censorship? Which...hasn't happened.

Quote from: amacris on August 21, 2022, 09:37:27 PM

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on August 21, 2022, 08:24:12 PM
For example, where are the tabletop rpg campaign settings with an SRD and highly detailed wiki? Where are the house organs for tabletop RPG companies, in the form of monthly magazines? Where are the boxed sets for Basic D&D, or AD&D, or D&D 3.x with spell cards, psionic power cards, magic item cards, feat cards, non-weapon proficiency cards, thief skill cards, paladin ability cards, monster cards (with game stats), and more? Where are the game boards and dungeon tiles for specific adventure modules, for specific game systems?

Where are the boxed sets with random encounter cards, based upon location and time of day.....with game mechanics specifically translated into our game system of choice?

Publishing some book, and not giving a shit about the graphic design, art, and index is simply not going to cut it any more. If you wanna inject serotonin into people's tiny lizard brains, you need to visually stimulate them. And if you're publishing a game, what does the character sheet look like? Is it intuitive? Is it fun to look at? Or does it look like some incredibly obscure implementation of tax code instead?

Didn't I bring up having an Internet presence? Having a wiki, having an SRD, having a website, having an online storefront (on a site YOU control), having a blog (that you control), and having a forum (that you control). And yes, you could even hire someone to BUILD A FUCKING APP for your OSR game, and its campaign setting.

I agree with you 100% Sacrificial Lamb. At Autarch I offer my own webstore (AutarchEmporium.com), website (Autarch.co), forums (forum.autarch.co). In my most recent game, the Ascendant RPG, in addition to a book we offered full-color 3' x 2' battle maps of Capital City and a combat gauge marked off in game units, and we're developing an App to help people build characters. And Ascendant has been my most successful RPG so far.

The problem is that all of that costs time and money, and unless your game is already doing "pretty well" it is hard to throw more resources at it, especially when you're on the bleak side of a network effect. That said, I'm relatively grateful that my better-financed competitors don't do much of this sort of thing because if they did that'd make it even harder to compete.

And that's something. You're acknowledging this issue, which is good.

It's also good that you're finding a niche within the tabletop rpg industry. Lots of publishers don't even bother to ask themselves what the needs of potential customers are, that aren't being met. I've also heard that all mention of ACKS and Autarch is a forbidden topic on RPGnet. That blows my mind. It also probably embodies "the bleak side of a network effect".

I've been thinking about this lately, and it seems like few tabletop rpg publishers want to take any useful lessons from the board game industry.....or they avoid consciously thinking about building their own IP. Instead, we hear some people advocating that nearly all gaming will inevitably be consigned to a digital ghetto, and that if we're not playing VTT in the near future, then we won't even be playing rpgs at all. This idea that the architects of the Coronahoax will successfully lock everyone up in their homes for the next 20 years, and that face-to-face gaming will be permanently over......is not realistic. People have a breaking point, and eventually need to have face-to-face social interactions.....as digital interactions are a poor surrogate for that. I've also noticed multiple game publishers shutting down their blogs and forums, and using Facebook, Discord, and Reddit to communicate with customers instead. That is a major mistake, as these game companies are OUTSOURCING their ability to communicate with potential customers, to the point that it leaves them extremely vulnerable........if these gaming companies offend the wrong person, and end up being removed from these platforms.

Publishers must absolutely have rigid control over their methods of communicating with customers. Remember when Vox Day had his blog nuked by Blogger? He didn't break any rules, but he disrupted the precious "Globohomo narrative". Fortunately for him, he anticipated this......and was instantly ready with a backup clone blog that he personally controlled. In other words, DECENTRALIZATION is necessary.

But....of course, Hasbro wants massive centralization.

Meanwhile, we have too many content creators who are just releasing pdfs, or the occasional rpg books.......which doesn't actually do anything to make rpgs more accessible for people. Most people understand the concept of a board game, but lots of people struggle with the concept of a tabletop rpg...and can't visualize it.

When I brought up examples of "optimizing the face-to-face experience"....my point was that rpg publishers need to start thinking outside the box, because a lot of the 'normies' need this type of stuff to help them find inspiration...when they're engaging in the face-to-face social activity of a roleplaying game.

And that's fine.

Quote from: Abraxus on August 21, 2022, 11:46:27 PM
It's easy to talk out of one ass and act like it's easy to find a face to face gaming table.

Sometimes it's easier to find digital versions of such tables. Myself I prefer both. I get some like the face to face aspect and if I could find the kind of game I want that way Jbwould.

Unfortunately beyond 5E and both editions of PF not much else in my area. I'm currently posting in a 1E campaign in Greyhawk and enjoying it immensely. I like being powerful yet also have to be careful about whatever we fight. I started as a first level Halfling Thief with 1HP.

Maybe some of you have the luxury of finding unlimited posters and DMs for the kind of RPGs you want to play/run. I unfortunately do not. Trying to run and/or play a game of Rifts or anything Palladium related is an exercise in futility. The flaky as fuck nature of both is embarrassing. 

In the end I find both digital and actual table experiences enjoyable. Either or are not fir everyone but I'm not going to assume my aycand only mind is the right way.

There's nothing wrong with finding digital gaming to be enjoyable. I promise that I'm not giving you grief over that. But Hasbro doesn't want us to have choices in regards to how we game, or whom we game with. They want ironclad control of the rpg hobby and industry, and they are not good people.

I just hope you understand my desire to explore ideas for "optimizing the face-to-face experience" for tabletop rpgs, because rpg publishers are not really doing that in a major way. And I don't consider Hasbro's advocacy of a centralized "woke" digital ghetto to be "optimal" for gaming. Just the opposite. It sounds dystopian and nightmarish to me.

So you understand my position, I consider the Internet to be a useful tool for tabletop rpgs.....but that's all it is to me. A tool.

QuoteAnd that's something. You're acknowledging this issue, which is good.

It's also good that you're finding a niche within the tabletop rpg industry. Lots of publishers don't even bother to ask themselves what the needs of potential customers are, that aren't being met. I've also heard that all mention of ACKS and Autarch is a forbidden topic on RPGnet. That blows my mind. It also probably embodies "the bleak side of a network effect".

The moderators of RPG.net consistently defamed me with false accusations. When I asked the owners to stop their staff from defaming me, they instead simply banned any discussion of my game. If they weren't allowed to defame me, then no one would be allowed to say anything at all. So I definitely have been on the bleak side of the network effect! But the good news is that there is a counter-network slowly forming. It's much smaller but it's the beginning of something.

QuoteI've been thinking about this lately, and it seems like few tabletop rpg publishers want to take any useful lessons from the board game industry.....or they avoid consciously thinking about building their own IP.

I'd be curious as to what you see as the chief lessons to take from the board game industry. That seems like a REALLY worthwhile discussion.

Quote
Instead, we hear some people advocating that nearly all gaming will inevitably be consigned to a digital ghetto, and that if we're not playing VTT in the near future, then we won't even be playing rpgs at all. This idea that the architects of the Coronahoax will successfully lock everyone up in their homes for the next 20 years, and that face-to-face gaming will be permanently over......is not realistic. People have a breaking point, and eventually need to have face-to-face social interactions.....as digital interactions are a poor surrogate for that.

In my opinion, tabletop RPGs have one major feature that neither boardgames nor videogames have, and that is that the live GM is able to provide total agency to the players to do what they want to do. In Axis & Allies you cannot decide to research an Antarctic base for the Axis, but if it were an RPG you could. Unfortunately, VTT works against this in every way. Instead of being able to freely improvise, the GM becomes constrained by the limits of the VTT. I've noticed this in running ACKS live and ACKS in VTT.

Quote
I've also noticed multiple game publishers shutting down their blogs and forums, and using Facebook, Discord, and Reddit to communicate with customers instead. That is a major mistake, as these game companies are OUTSOURCING their ability to communicate with potential customers, to the point that it leaves them extremely vulnerable........if these gaming companies offend the wrong person, and end up being removed from these platforms.

Everybody is sure they won't get cancelled until they get cancelled. Myself, I'm on redundant platforms. I'm on Patreon AND Locals. I host my own website. I'm on Twitter, Facebook, and Gab. I have my own mailing list with the member list downloaded from the platform, and I use both Substack and Mailchimp to distribute. I crowdfund on three different platforms.

Quote
Publishers must absolutely have rigid control over their methods of communicating with customers. Remember when Vox Day had his blog nuked by Blogger? He didn't break any rules, but he disrupted the precious "Globohomo narrative". Fortunately for him, he anticipated this......and was instantly ready with a backup clone blog that he personally controlled. In other words, DECENTRALIZATION is necessary.

But....of course, Hasbro wants massive centralization.

Not just Hasbro! But yes. Amen.

Quote
Meanwhile, we have too many content creators who are just releasing pdfs, or the occasional rpg books.......which doesn't actually do anything to make rpgs more accessible for people. Most people understand the concept of a board game, but lots of people struggle with the concept of a tabletop rpg...and can't visualize it.

When I brought up examples of "optimizing the face-to-face experience"....my point was that rpg publishers need to start thinking outside the box, because a lot of the 'normies' need this type of stuff to help them find inspiration...when they're engaging in the face-to-face social activity of a roleplaying game.

One of the things I'm doing is using comics as a means to help promote my RPG. The comic book comes with cool Magic-style trading cards that serve as miniature character sheets for the RPG. I'm sure there are other ideas worth thinking about.

Quote from: amacris on August 22, 2022, 12:41:06 AM
In my opinion, tabletop RPGs have one major feature that neither boardgames nor videogames have, and that is that the live GM is able to provide total agency to the players to do what they want to do. In Axis & Allies you cannot decide to research an Antarctic base for the Axis, but if it were an RPG you could. Unfortunately, VTT works against this in every way. Instead of being able to freely improvise, the GM becomes constrained by the limits of the VTT. I've noticed this in running ACKS live and ACKS in VTT.

How is that? I've played TTRPGs online with Roll20 and Foundry and didn't find any serious limitations at all. Our group used Discord to communicate. The players were free to do anything they wanted with their characters, limited only by the constraints of the game world, just like in a face-to-face game. The GMs frequently improvised. Besides its benefits during the covid lockdown, online play has other advantages:
1. It's much easier to find players who are willing to play obscure games (I don't play D&D 5e - ever!).
2. You don't waste time commuting to the gaming location. This is an especially important consideration for me on weekdays.
3. Players who have young children can stay at home with them and don't have to hire a babysitter.

Quote from: Rhymer88 on August 22, 2022, 04:20:27 AM
How is that? I've played TTRPGs online with Roll20 and Foundry and didn't find any serious limitations at all. Our group used Discord to communicate. The players were free to do anything they wanted with their characters, limited only by the constraints of the game world, just like in a face-to-face game. The GMs frequently improvised.

This matches my experience, BUT it is easy to get caught up in the VTT tools and graphics and say "You can't go there" for unprepped material, just like a railroading GM in real life.

The trick is to prep for sandbox play and if you use tokens use very minimalistic battlemap graphics, (a) generic sites and (b) simple battlemaps that can be updated in real time if the PCs go somewhere unexpected. WoTC's plan to use Unreal Engine looks exactly the wrong approach to me. I just added all the Arden Vul maps to my Wilderlands campaign on Roll20. No way am I building everything in a game engine! For one thing the sample video they showed is hideously Uncanny Valley, with a game realistic environment & in it silly looking 'minis' with bases!

Quote from: S'mon on August 22, 2022, 04:44:37 AM

Quote from: Rhymer88 on August 22, 2022, 04:20:27 AM
How is that? I've played TTRPGs online with Roll20 and Foundry and didn't find any serious limitations at all. Our group used Discord to communicate. The players were free to do anything they wanted with their characters, limited only by the constraints of the game world, just like in a face-to-face game. The GMs frequently improvised.

This matches my experience, BUT it is easy to get caught up in the VTT tools and graphics and say "You can't go there" for unprepped material, just like a railroading GM in real life.

The trick is to prep for sandbox play and if you use tokens use very minimalistic battlemap graphics, (a) generic sites and (b) simple battlemaps that can be updated in real time if the PCs go somewhere unexpected. WoTC's plan to use Unreal Engine looks exactly the wrong approach to me. I just added all the Arden Vul maps to my Wilderlands campaign on Roll20. No way am I building everything in a game engine! For one thing the sample video they showed is hideously Uncanny Valley, with a game realistic environment & in it silly looking 'minis' with bases!

I guess WotC doesn't like theater of the mind because they can't monetize it.

Quote from: Rhymer88 on August 22, 2022, 05:38:03 AM

Quote from: S'mon on August 22, 2022, 04:44:37 AM

Quote from: Rhymer88 on August 22, 2022, 04:20:27 AM
How is that? I've played TTRPGs online with Roll20 and Foundry and didn't find any serious limitations at all. Our group used Discord to communicate. The players were free to do anything they wanted with their characters, limited only by the constraints of the game world, just like in a face-to-face game. The GMs frequently improvised.

This matches my experience, BUT it is easy to get caught up in the VTT tools and graphics and say "You can't go there" for unprepped material, just like a railroading GM in real life.

The trick is to prep for sandbox play and if you use tokens use very minimalistic battlemap graphics, (a) generic sites and (b) simple battlemaps that can be updated in real time if the PCs go somewhere unexpected. WoTC's plan to use Unreal Engine looks exactly the wrong approach to me. I just added all the Arden Vul maps to my Wilderlands campaign on Roll20. No way am I building everything in a game engine! For one thing the sample video they showed is hideously Uncanny Valley, with a game realistic environment & in it silly looking 'minis' with bases!

I guess WotC doesn't like theater of the mind because they can't monetize it.

A very noteworthy, statement.  TotM, is the stuff of Grognards.  WOTC has already given all of us Grognards a bubble pipe, and labeled us all a bunch of Gatekeepers.

Quote from: Rhymer88 on August 22, 2022, 04:20:27 AM

Quote from: amacris on August 22, 2022, 12:41:06 AM
In my opinion, tabletop RPGs have one major feature that neither boardgames nor videogames have, and that is that the live GM is able to provide total agency to the players to do what they want to do. In Axis & Allies you cannot decide to research an Antarctic base for the Axis, but if it were an RPG you could. Unfortunately, VTT works against this in every way. Instead of being able to freely improvise, the GM becomes constrained by the limits of the VTT. I've noticed this in running ACKS live and ACKS in VTT.

How is that? I've played TTRPGs online with Roll20 and Foundry and didn't find any serious limitations at all. Our group used Discord to communicate. The players were free to do anything they wanted with their characters, limited only by the constraints of the game world, just like in a face-to-face game. The GMs frequently improvised. Besides its benefits during the covid lockdown, online play has other advantages:
1. It's much easier to find players who are willing to play obscure games (I don't play D&D 5e - ever!).
2. You don't waste time commuting to the gaming location. This is an especially important consideration for me on weekdays.
3. Players who have young children can stay at home with them and don't have to hire a babysitter.

To briefly reply to a couple of the the threads of this discussion:

• For at least some of my players, full-service VTT absolutely does compete with computer gaming. When we played on the old Owlbear Rodeo, you still rolled physical dice, had a physical character sheet, and we applied the rules manually. On Foundry, *J* hunts through menus for options, fusses with access control, taps on buttons to roll dice, and - just like I found with my player base in 4e - is strongly incented to look at his character sheet for solutions to problems in the world, instead of describing intent and allowing me to apply rules + rulings.
• For me as a DM, VTT really does limit my options. It takes 3-4x as long, minimum, to prepare a possible adventure site for use in Foundry as it does on tabletop (or, again, old Owlbear Rodeo). For casual use I need to come up with map and monsters and treasures; for online use (with a game like 5e that prefers grid tactics) in a VTT like Forge I need to have a presentable map AND do all the fussy manual work to wire it up for line-of-sight AND a token for every monster AND stats for those monsters (including customising the text that the players will see to avoid reskins being too obvious, if I want them to suspend disbelief) AND objects for substantial items of treasure. If I want to give custom treasure, I need to make sure the powers are within the scope of the software's item model, etc, etc. So I'm strongly encouraged not to homebrew, to run official content or to buy content from commercial providers who have the time to do that work.

I haven't yet looked at the Foundry module for Symbaroum, but thinking about running The High Moors in (Foundry) feels like a solid week of programming work, which is the sort of busman's holiday I can't afford. (High Moors is a pure-5e old-school-style-intended sandbox, not quite a hexcrawl, but with custom races.) Likewise running a mix of Arkadia / Theros / Odyssey of the Dragonlords, which is another in my top 5 choices for the next campaign - so many custom races & subclasses to bring in, even if you don't touch the Theros gods and their alternate piety advancement track.

Quote from: Naburimannu on August 22, 2022, 06:30:54 AM
To briefly reply to a couple of the the threads of this discussion:

• For at least some of my players, full-service VTT absolutely does compete with computer gaming. When we played on the old Owlbear Rodeo, you still rolled physical dice, had a physical character sheet, and we applied the rules manually. On Foundry, *J* hunts through menus for options, fusses with access control, taps on buttons to roll dice, and - just like I found with my player base in 4e - is strongly incented to look at his character sheet for solutions to problems in the world, instead of describing intent and allowing me to apply rules + rulings.
• For me as a DM, VTT really does limit my options. It takes 3-4x as long, minimum, to prepare a possible adventure site for use in Foundry as it does on tabletop (or, again, old Owlbear Rodeo). For casual use I need to come up with map and monsters and treasures; for online use (with a game like 5e that prefers grid tactics) in a VTT like Forge I need to have a presentable map AND do all the fussy manual work to wire it up for line-of-sight AND a token for every monster AND stats for those monsters (including customising the text that the players will see to avoid reskins being too obvious, if I want them to suspend disbelief) AND objects for substantial items of treasure. If I want to give custom treasure, I need to make sure the powers are within the scope of the software's item model, etc, etc. So I'm strongly encouraged not to homebrew, to run official content or to buy content from commercial providers who have the time to do that work.

I haven't yet looked at the Foundry module for Symbaroum, but thinking about running The High Moors in it feels like a solid week of programming work, which is the sort of busman's holiday I can't afford. (High Moors is a pure-5e old-school-style-intended sandbox, not quite a hexcrawl, but with custom races.) Likewise running a mix of Arkadia / Theros / Odyssey of the Dragonlords, which is another in my top 5 choices for the next campaign.

Yes.  Everything has a cost.  Recruiting players that you like to get together in a physical location?  Arranging to have food together?  Making some compromises in what you play to satisfy the group of friends (to some limited extent)?  Cost.  Contrast that to dealing with the limitations of the tools and medium when playing online.  Cost.

For me, in-person is more upfront cost and more pay off. Even when I end up cooking for the whole group, cleaning the house, and hosting the game.  Because all of that stuff is work, but it is different work than sitting for even more hours fighting with a software package that looks like Microsoft version 1.1 of a product (when the designer's ideas of critical features have been tried but the usability hasn't caught up yet to what people are actually doing).  Not to mention, you may notice that another difference is that how I do that work is under my control.  If I don't feel like cooking, we can order pizza.  What happens when I don't feel like fighting to get another map into the tool?  I either grit my teeth and do the work, or no game.  Tack a subscription model on top of that?  Forget it!

I see this going the way of 4E. Big hype that dies off quickly. I look for physical books to be phased out at some point soon because they are the only protection from digital tyranny.

Quote from: Naburimannu on August 22, 2022, 06:30:54 AM

To briefly reply to a couple of the the threads of this discussion:

.....

• For me as a DM, VTT really does limit my options. It takes 3-4x as long, minimum, to prepare a possible adventure

I think that's the point, but also

• 
  Firstly: get people locked into "DnD As A Service" (Like SAAS :Software as a Service).
  So if you don't keep up the payments 'poof'! No access to your beloved Characters.
  
• Get CR to use the software -> Instant attraction of playing like they do, same maps, same 'minis' etc.
• And as you say: It's soooo much easier to just click a button, pay 20 bucks and instantly have an adventure: all the tokens, maps, all done right, and coded up, particle spell-effects, than slave for 3 weeks typing in one of your own making, or a random one bought off Drivethru