Quote from: Abraxus on August 21, 2022, 01:04:33 PM

While it would be great that someone would optimize the face to face experience imo it's not where the money is at.

True.  Also true:  Where the money is at isn't meeting certain needs of the customers.  To wit, I spend way too much time with computer screens at work.  Most of my players are in the same boat.  So the very last thing we want to do when playing is spend even more time staring at a screen.  Plus, having played both ways, we know that face-to-face is the superior experience for us.

There will of course be younger people so into tech that it doesn't occur to them to do it any other way.  There will then eventually be a counter-movement where some of them experiment and discover that the face-to-face version is superior, for exactly the same reasons that some of us older ones find it so.  It's inherent in what it is.  It's exactly parallel to some millennials that I saw several years ago having a "conversation" in a room where all of them were sitting around texting to each other.  Heads down, staring at the screen, mostly blank stares, occasional chuckle.  Then Covid and that's all they did for awhile.  Now they know when they are in a room they want eye contact.

Quote from: Abraxus on August 21, 2022, 01:04:33 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on August 21, 2022, 12:27:10 AM

Ah, so you ARE posting from the early 2000s. Gotcha.

News Alert - what you saw in the early 2000s was 20 years ago. Things that worked great then for entertainment, really are not so working right now. That's how entertainment goes. Stuff changes.

While it would be great that someone would optimize the face to face experience imo it's not where the money is at.

Whether we like it or not more and more players especially the younger ones are learning to play RPGs online. I prefer books though given getting older and lack of space switching to digital for most of my rpg buying. I'm 49 and I no longer want to lug or carry a bunch of books to a game session.

I really wish many of the members here would stop coming off as the stereotypical anti-tech gamer Luddite. You all act as if social media and the Internet is some new fad destined to go the way of the dodo. It's simply not. I'm in an area where we had more severe Covid restrictions and it was either learn and adapt to using Discord or RollD20 or not game at all. It was either do that or not game it alll and it was two years and counting before I made the switch.

I'm not saying people here have to like online gaming. At the same time try to not come off as Mistwell says and look like your knowledge is 20 years out of date. It's like one of the players who refused to ho online in one of my games because he had to buy a second screen and he was not spending 800$+ on a new monitor. My response was when did you last go buy a monitor in 1980. I bought a second one around Christmas a year ago from Walmart 120$ tax on with free shipping.

I'm not buying One DND too many fantasy RPGs st home and I cannot justify it financially. With noting so far interesting me in the rules either.

You're wrong, Mistwell's wrong. You're both absolutely wrong.

Yes, we know that people (especially young people) are obsessed with their stupid fucking serotonin-delivery devices, known as smartphones. But Globohomo will not be able to successfully lock people up in their homes forever. The coronahoax worked for a couple years because it was new, and because Globohomo has a large number of blackmailed and bribed politicians, corporate stooges, fascist police forces, and media whores to enforce their precious narrative. But the lockdowns cannot last forever. That which cannot endure, will not endure.

Remember that we live (or will live) in the age of the "rolling power outage". Many people in western Europe might not be able to heat their homes within the next couple years, because of this "Great Reset" wankery. Assuming that all gaming is going to be all digital all the time, or else tabletop rpgs will die....is just not realistic. People can only take so much social isolation and social retardation up to a point.....and yes, there is a breaking point.

And furthermore, NOBODY has successfully articulated what would make a VTT more enticing than a fantasy computer game. I can play a computer game either alone, or I can play it with my friends. My friends and I can create characters, give them stats, give them equipment....and then we can go on adventures together. You're telling us that the people who play face-to-face games will all choose to stare at pixelated images forever on a screen instead? Haven't we been told this a million times already for the past 15 years? But....ok. I'm sure it will happen any day now.

And another equally important thing, is that exactly ZERO tabletop rpg publishers have even bothered to try to optimize the face-to-face experience of playing roleplaying games. Nobody has done this, and nobody is trying to do this. Nobody tried it 20 years ago, and nobody's trying to do it now. Some dude selling some books and dice for his fantasy heartbreaker, is NOT making an attempt to OPTIMIZE A FACE-TO-FACE EXPERIENCE.

Nobody in the tabletop rpg industry is bothering to learn any lessons whatsoever from the board game industry, in an attempt to reach more normies. Going almost entirely VTT, means that you are competing DIRECTLY with computer games, in which case.....you will LOSE.

Quote from: Almost_Useless on August 20, 2022, 05:06:45 PM
I play all online now.  That's the price of moving to nowhere.  But I'm not in for this.

Once there's One place to play and One D&D community, it's too easy to ban you for One wrong opinion.

That's the part makes me balk as well.  Transitioning the game to a 'culture' online hub, has the potential for mandates of play to come out, potentially inhibiting players from gaming whatever they want, as it does not 'fit in' with the image-branding WoTC is carefully cultivating.  It's speculation at this point, but one could feasibly surmise that anything online and socially centralized, usually results in a certain set of moderation, for better or worse.

On the offline physical face-to-face vs. online gaming: I've had success with both and there are certainly merits for online gaming.  Online has led to more potential for players of certain systems, more flexibility and has worked for me at least.

A fun quote from Mike Mornard, when he played with Gygax:

"...Gary ran games in his office, which was provided with chairs, a couch, and file cabinets. While playing, Gary would open the drawers of the file cabinet and sit behind them so that the players could not see him. They only experienced the Dungeon Master as a disembodied voice."

Maybe this new online gaming style is not so different after all.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on August 21, 2022, 02:29:46 PM
Nobody in the tabletop rpg industry is bothering to learn any lessons whatsoever from the board game industry, in an attempt to reach more normies. Going almost entirely VTT, means that you are competing DIRECTLY with computer games, in which case.....you will LOSE.

Roll20 is a VTT. Which computer game does it compete against?

Not a trap question. I just find the argument between computer games and VTTs odd.

Quote from: FingerRod on August 21, 2022, 03:35:30 PM

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on August 21, 2022, 02:29:46 PM
Nobody in the tabletop rpg industry is bothering to learn any lessons whatsoever from the board game industry, in an attempt to reach more normies. Going almost entirely VTT, means that you are competing DIRECTLY with computer games, in which case.....you will LOSE.

Roll20 is a VTT. Which computer game does it compete against?

Not a trap question. I just find the argument between computer games and VTTs odd.

I'll bet it's because of the graphical user interface on a computer. Therefore they're the same thing and in competition with one another.

Quote from: Corolinth on August 21, 2022, 03:43:32 PM

Quote from: FingerRod on August 21, 2022, 03:35:30 PM

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on August 21, 2022, 02:29:46 PM
Nobody in the tabletop rpg industry is bothering to learn any lessons whatsoever from the board game industry, in an attempt to reach more normies. Going almost entirely VTT, means that you are competing DIRECTLY with computer games, in which case.....you will LOSE.

Roll20 is a VTT. Which computer game does it compete against?

Not a trap question. I just find the argument between computer games and VTTs odd.

I'll bet it's because of the graphical user interface on a computer. Therefore they're the same thing and in competition with one another.

Not really. I cannot think of a computer game that would compete with the experience of playing a TTRPG. It is like saying WoW is a D&D competitor if you play D&D on Roll20.

Quote from: FingerRod on August 21, 2022, 03:51:10 PM

Quote from: Corolinth on August 21, 2022, 03:43:32 PM
I'll bet it's because of the graphical user interface on a computer. Therefore they're the same thing and in competition with one another.

Not really. I cannot think of a computer game that would compete with the experience of playing a TTRPG. It is like saying WoW is a D&D competitor if you play D&D on Roll20.

It sounded to me like that was the argument that Lamb was making. I could be wrong, but that's how I interpreted it.

  Things change.  This new way is the way...well it seems the powers that be want people to sit in their pod, consume product and eat zee bugs.   This is not IMO because it is "natural", it is because someone with a shitload of money wants it that way.  If people want to do it, so be it. Better is subjective of course, but human contact, in person is a real thing that people really do want.

I'm just curious what people expect when they say "optimize the face-to-face experience."

To me, that just means learning to become a better GM. Develop an intimate understanding of the system you are running... identify mechanics/rules that don't work for you or your table... introduce new ones that do... maximize fun. There are a bajillion "How to be a better GM" guides out there, but not a single one is a magic wand that with automatically improve your game if you buy it. So what exactly do people think will "optimize the face-to-face experience?" Because it's not something you can buy; it's something you need to learn.

And that is the real tragedy (and eventual demise) of WotC's plan. If they create a single standard of rules that cannot be changed by anyone except them, people will eventually lose interest and seek ways to play how they want. This isn't to say they will rush to get an in-person group going, but it does mean they will drift away from WotC's platform and system. And if the rules are locked behind a subscription-wall, they'll just look at earlier editions.

Quote from: Corolinth on August 21, 2022, 04:05:52 PM

Quote from: FingerRod on August 21, 2022, 03:51:10 PM

Quote from: Corolinth on August 21, 2022, 03:43:32 PM
I'll bet it's because of the graphical user interface on a computer. Therefore they're the same thing and in competition with one another.

Not really. I cannot think of a computer game that would compete with the experience of playing a TTRPG. It is like saying WoW is a D&D competitor if you play D&D on Roll20.

It sounded to me like that was the argument that Lamb was making. I could be wrong, but that's how I interpreted it.

He was saying that trying to complete would be a loss. I agree there, but my point is that they cannot compete because they are not competitors with one another. Unless I am missing another point he was making.

Quote from: FingerRod on August 21, 2022, 05:20:20 PM
He was saying that trying to complete would be a loss. I agree there, but my point is that they cannot compete because they are not competitors with one another. Unless I am missing another point he was making.

Yeah, I don't agree with the assessment either. It's like saying audiobooks will replace text-based books. It's a tenuous claim at best. Tabletop to VTT is more akin to physical book vs pdf. The content is the same, only the medium changes. Videogames are a different creature altogether.

Are there people that prefer audiobooks over text-based books? Of course! Just like there are videogamers that have no interest in playing ttrpgs, real tabletop or VTT. But I don't see VTT as a direct competitor of videogames.

Quote from: King Tyranno on August 20, 2022, 10:05:18 AM
Zoomers want everything easy and digital.

Except dice.
 

Quote from: King Tyranno on August 20, 2022, 10:05:18 AMWotC have done a lot to drive away customers because THEY. DON'T WANT. YOU. They are not making this FOR YOU! They will make more money from locking down DnD into a software they control then they ever will selling books in a store.

True on both accounts.

Games Workshop is also notorious for deliberately alienating the grogs to clear the market for new customers, because the horrible truth is there comes a point where your existing customers have everything they need and just make your game look like it's for old people.

Quote from: Corolinth on August 20, 2022, 12:04:24 PM
It isn't just Zoomers. Nobody wants books. Everyone wants wikis.

As well they should, and I've been pushing for this for decades.

Quote from: TrueWOPR on August 20, 2022, 12:29:12 PMreducing the rulebook from something well crafted, proof-read, intended to be the end all for the game

Let's be honest, most rulebooks aren't anywhere near this.

Quote from: ForgottenF on August 20, 2022, 02:58:45 PM
I was one of those "only play in person with hardcopy books" diehards for years. Stupidly, I stuck with that all the way through the pandemic, and ended up not playing any RPGs at all for a whole year when I had almost nothing else to do. Then, I had my first kid, and was basically forced to move to playing online, because my only free time was late at night.

Suddenly, I found that I had access to better players, who reliably showed up for games, and came to play rather than to gossip. And because no one has to travel, pick up food, set up all their paperwork, and settle down to actually play, I can run a tight 3 or 4 hour session and do more playing than I used to do in a ten hour one. That means that instead of playing once a month (if I'm lucky), I can now be in three games per week. And that's with a more than full-time job and a family.

Comparing that to the years I spent trying to wrangle 3 or 4 friends into showing up for a once per month game, and then having half of them not show up, and the other half spending most of the session smoking and talking about unrelated nonsense, I'm not sure I'll ever go back.

Oh, and before someone says this is a zoomer problem, I'm in my thirties, and the people I play with online are reliably 15-20 years older than I played am.

Overall online play is a net win for everyone.

However...

Quote from: Ghostmaker on August 20, 2022, 03:39:32 PM
The speculation I'm seeing is that it's less about wokeness per se (that's just a bonus) and more about establishing a closed system for the 'game as a service' model that's been plaguing the PC/console game culture for a while.

Quote from: Almost_Useless on August 20, 2022, 05:06:45 PM
Once there's One place to play and One D&D community, it's too easy to ban you for One wrong opinion.

...corporations will absolutely gatekeep if capable. Several recent books can no longer be purchased on D&D Beyond. Microsoft is banning Minecraft players on private servers. BMW has made heated seats a subscription feature on their latest cars. Adobe only sells subscriptions to their apps. So if Hasbro manages to get this all under one roof you better believe they'll make sure only the people who don't damage their brand are allowed to play, and the minute someone does they'll expel them and render their purchases inaccessible, because at this point customers don't actually own the media, merely license it.

@Sacrificial Lamb

Have we finished doing our afternoon rant at the clouds.

Good.

If you think the RPGs industry and generally the rest of society is going to ignore what Social Media and the Internet can do for them. Guess again.

While face to face at a table is a good way to reach out to new gamers, YouTube, Discord and Facebook has no boundaries. I can recruit and find players from across my city and province. Hell across the world. If you think any properly run company with resources to invest is going to ignore such a resource it's not going to happen.

Whether you or I like it or not. I'm not a huge fan of online gaming perff so personally. It was either adapt or die. I prefer to be on the road of progress rather than left behind.

You remand other stereotypical anti-tech grognard luddites remind me of when mass  this production was first introduced and those for example making shoes by hand swore up and done that no way no how customers would by such inferior products. Years later behind some industries everything is mass produced. Most people don't care how their shoes are produced as long as they are cheaper.

Keep wagging your fist at the clouds as any day now rpg companies are going to go back to gaming table....any day now.

Quote from: FingerRod on August 21, 2022, 03:35:30 PM

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on August 21, 2022, 02:29:46 PM
Nobody in the tabletop rpg industry is bothering to learn any lessons whatsoever from the board game industry, in an attempt to reach more normies. Going almost entirely VTT, means that you are competing DIRECTLY with computer games, in which case.....you will LOSE.

Roll20 is a VTT. Which computer game does it compete against?

Not a trap question. I just find the argument between computer games and VTTs odd.

It seems odd, but it's not.

VTT is competing against all fantasy computer games. All of them. VTT doesn't have to specifically compete against NWN, NWN 2, Baldur's Gate, DDO, and other such games. These games do not have to actually be VTT themselves to be competition. Whether you are playing D&D or another fantasy game on a VTT, or playing D&D or another fantasy game on a computer game, it doesn't matter.

Either way, you are still playing a game on a computer. Either way, you are still staring at pixelated images on a screen. Either way, you are still creating characters (for both), equipping your characters (for both), and going on adventures with friends (for both). Either way, I can verbally communicate with friends while either playing with a VTT or playing with a computer game. Either way, you are playing a fantasy game on a computer.

And yes, I understand that VTT and computer games are not the same thing.....but these two activities are filling a very similar slot.

Quote from: Effete on August 21, 2022, 05:16:34 PM
I'm just curious what people expect when they say "optimize the face-to-face experience."

To me, that just means learning to become a better GM. Develop an intimate understanding of the system you are running... identify mechanics/rules that don't work for you or your table... introduce new ones that do... maximize fun. There are a bajillion "How to be a better GM" guides out there, but not a single one is a magic wand that with automatically improve your game if you buy it. So what exactly do people think will "optimize the face-to-face experience?" Because it's not something you can buy; it's something you need to learn.

And that is the real tragedy (and eventual demise) of WotC's plan. If they create a single standard of rules that cannot be changed by anyone except them, people will eventually lose interest and seek ways to play how they want. This isn't to say they will rush to get an in-person group going, but it does mean they will drift away from WotC's platform and system. And if the rules are locked behind a subscription-wall, they'll just look at earlier editions.

"Optimizing the face-to-face experience" is NOT about being a better DM. It's about taking some long-past-due lessons from the board game industry, and making tabletop RPGs more approachable for normies. And guess what? Nobody is doing that. Confining everyone inside a centralized digital ghetto is not the answer to the problem.

For example, where are the tabletop rpg campaign settings with an SRD and highly detailed wiki? Where are the house organs for tabletop RPG companies, in the form of monthly magazines? Where are the boxed sets for Basic D&D, or AD&D, or D&D 3.x with spell cards, psionic power cards, magic item cards, feat cards, non-weapon proficiency cards, thief skill cards, paladin ability cards, monster cards (with game stats), and more? Where are the game boards and dungeon tiles for specific adventure modules, for specific game systems?

Where are the boxed sets with random encounter cards, based upon location and time of day.....with game mechanics specifically translated into our game system of choice?

Publishing some book, and not giving a shit about the graphic design, art, and index is simply not going to cut it any more. If you wanna inject serotonin into people's tiny lizard brains, you need to visually stimulate them. And if you're publishing a game, what does the character sheet look like? Is it intuitive? Is it fun to look at? Or does it look like some incredibly obscure implementation of tax code instead?

And furthermore, it's a bad idea to outsource all discussion of your games to Facebook, Reddit, and Discord......because as publishers, you don't control those sites.....and they are becoming increasingly dystopian and communistic anyway. If you are selling a game, then your website needs to have its own online storefront (that you control), as well as its own blog and its own forum....which you also control, and in which you don't have to compete for attention with a million other things on the increasingly communistic hivemind of Facebook, Reddit, and Discord.

By doing stuff like this, you will eventually create a brand (if you're doing things right). But guess what? Nobody is doing this. And I wanna stress that people cannot hide in their basements, and wank on their computers forever.

Quote from: Abraxus on August 21, 2022, 07:35:50 PM
@Sacrificial Lamb

Have we finished doing our afternoon rant at the clouds.

Good.

If you think the RPGs industry and generally the rest of society is going to ignore what Social Media and the Internet can do for them. Guess again.

While face to face at a table is a good way to reach out to new gamers, YouTube, Discord and Facebook has no boundaries. I can recruit and find players from across my city and province. Hell across the world. If you think any properly run company with resources to invest is going to ignore such a resource it's not going to happen.

Whether you or I like it or not. I'm not a huge fan of online gaming perff so personally. It was either adapt or die. I prefer to be on the road of progress rather than left behind.

You remand other stereotypical anti-tech grognard luddites remind me of when mass  this production was first introduced and those for example making shoes by hand swore up and done that no way no how customers would by such inferior products. Years later behind some industries everything is mass produced. Most people don't care how their shoes are produced as long as they are cheaper.

Keep wagging your fist at the clouds as any day now rpg companies are going to go back to gaming table....any day now.

When did I say that it was a good idea to ignore social media? Go ahead, show me. I'll wait.

But forcing all tabletop gaming onto some shitty Hasbro groomer app, where you will inevitably be "fired" as a customer for your social media posts is just not going to cut it. Snarkily telling me that a digital ghetto is the future of all tabletop rpgs, and that technological luddites like myself just need to get used to having a boot stamped on my face forever and ever....is not impressing me. 

Didn't I bring up having an Internet presence? Having a wiki, having an SRD, having a website, having an online storefront (on a site YOU control), having a blog (that you control), and having a forum (that you control). And yes, you could even hire someone to BUILD A FUCKING APP for your OSR game, and its campaign setting.

Nothing I have said here has contradicted that. I'll repeat this again, for the TERMINALLY RETARDED:

NOBODY is discussing ways of "optimizing the face-to-face experience" for tabletop rpgs. Instead, people are just wanking about staring at pixelated images on a computer screen as being the future of tabletop rpgs, and if we think that's playing against the face-to-face SOCIAL advantages of rpgs, then we're luddites....and if we think computer games too closely compete with VTT, by filling a similar hobby space.....then once again we're told that we're luddites.

That's a cute rhetorical tactic, but it's ultimately retarded. If you wanna play games on your little computer, nobody is stopping you. But nobody here (or anywhere) is discussing ways of optimizing the face-to-face experience for tabletop rpgs. Which means it's just more computer nerds wanking out over the "inevitable" digitalization of everything....again.

Oh, but that's right. We live in the age of the "Great Reset", where we'll soon be prohibited from even buying food, unless we have a QR code on our precious little smartphones that indicate we've been injected by experimental mRNA gene therapy that "edits" our DNA. Some retards call that a "vaccine", right? Silly me. How could I forget?

Carry on then.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on August 21, 2022, 08:24:12 PM
And yes, I understand that VTT and computer games are not the same thing.....but these two activities are filling a very similar slot.

We'll have to disagree. In my experience, these two fill two completely different slots. WotC going in (yet again) on a VTT means they must compete against other VTTs for game nights.