The RPG is true to Tolkien's original work, much more so than previous incarnations of a LotR RPG (I know that's not saying much).

I think the mechanics are good. They are pretty light and thematic, covering things than a Tolkien RPG should cover like emphasising background, journeying, and corruption. I don't think I would consider it very "story game" like, though there are some relatively novel approaches to some aspects.

The organisational issue was when the rulebook was in two books in a single slip case without an index. This is no longer the case, as the rulebook is a single hardcover with over of the best RPG indexes I have seen.

I was going to ask if the revised rulebook solves any of the problems people are talking about...

Quote from: Future Villain Band;785915I was going to ask if the revised rulebook solves any of the problems people are talking about...

The rules are essentially the same, but they have been much better organised and indexed. The "preliminary rolls" for combat, encounters and journeys have been streamlined.

There's a free PDF showing the tweaks, though it doesn't quite show the benefit of the integrated text of the two books into one.

I bought the original version of ToR.

I went through character gen and a couple of gaming sessions with a friend.

As has already been said, it's horribly disorganised. Rules all over the place and seemingly randomly.
Combat itself was confusing and had lots of unnecessary very specific rulings.

I hated the travel system as well.  In general I hated the system in most ways and the reasons for that have already been mostly covered in this thread.

The art was nice though, but that wasn't enough to play it or even keep it.
I sold it on ebay a couple of weeks later and haven't looked back.

I think even if the organizational issues were fixed I still wouldn't like it much.

Excellent art, really catches the feel of the setting, the rules do as well. The thing is just too damned fiddly for my tastes, I really want to run it but it just looks like a hassle. The source books are good stuff though, even if I ditch the rules I may keep them.

I think it is a shame that people feel like something really extraordinary is required of a system for gaming in middle earth. I think that is totally off base. You can run a very satisfying middle earth game using basic D&D. Or just about any well engineered fantasy roleplaying system. What you need is a good sense of the setting and adventures that resonate with the expectations every player brings to that setting. It is basically a problem of DM'ing, not of finding the perfect system. But, people get a bit precious and uptight about this one because it is the great grand daddy of the genre. ToR totally succeeds at capturing the feel of the environment, the look, the monsters, the adventures. It really is great. But, they fell into the special snowflake system trap. In an ideal world this thing would have been written up as a campaign setting for 5E or some other widely available and well liked system.

Quote from: Larsdangly;785962I think it is a shame that people feel like something really extraordinary is required of a system for gaming in middle earth. I think that is totally off base. You can run a very satisfying middle earth game using basic D&D. Or just about any well engineered fantasy roleplaying system. What you need is a good sense of the setting and adventures that resonate with the expectations every player brings to that setting. It is basically a problem of DM'ing, not of finding the perfect system. But, people get a bit precious and uptight about this one because it is the great grand daddy of the genre. ToR totally succeeds at capturing the feel of the environment, the look, the monsters, the adventures. It really is great. But, they fell into the special snowflake system trap. In an ideal world this thing would have been written up as a campaign setting for 5E or some other widely available and well liked system.

I don't disagree with that necessarily but each system has its own nested assumptions which impact on play. For instance, XP for gold simply doesn't make sense to me in a Tolkien world. Nor does the Basic D&D magic system. You could house-rule it into something Tolkien-esque but that would require a lot of work above and beyond all the ordinary prep that you have to do when starting a new campaign. I don't think it's unreasonable to think it would be nice to have a system already geared up for Tolkien style gaming.

My opinion hasn't changed.

Quote from: noisms;786012I don't disagree with that necessarily but each system has its own nested assumptions which impact on play. For instance, XP for gold simply doesn't make sense to me in a Tolkien world. Nor does the Basic D&D magic system. You could house-rule it into something Tolkien-esque but that would require a lot of work above and beyond all the ordinary prep that you have to do when starting a new campaign. I don't think it's unreasonable to think it would be nice to have a system already geared up for Tolkien style gaming.

Little or no changes are needed to play well in a middle earth setting with something like Moldvay D&D. The magic system is fine; you just need to not fill every village with magic shops and crap like that, and resist the urge for level bloat. Magic in middle earth is a problem of DMing, not system. The EXP awards could go either way. Lots of people remove EXP for gold in D&D for lots of different settings because it rubs them the wrong way. So long as you replace it with something else so characters don't stagnate, you are fine (it would be totally ridiculous to require someone murder 200 orcs to reach 2nd level).

Quote from: Larsdangly;786044Little or no changes are needed to play well in a middle earth setting with something like Moldvay D&D. The magic system is fine; you just need to not fill every village with magic shops and crap like that, and resist the urge for level bloat. Magic in middle earth is a problem of DMing, not system. The EXP awards could go either way. Lots of people remove EXP for gold in D&D for lots of different settings because it rubs them the wrong way. So long as you replace it with something else so characters don't stagnate, you are fine (it would be totally ridiculous to require someone murder 200 orcs to reach 2nd level).

I respectfully disagree. None of what any of the magic-users in Tolkien do is remotely like D&D magic. And you're a bit blithe about replacing XP for gold - what do you replace it with? XP for role playing? XP for story goals? No thanks. It's not that using D&D would be impossible, you understand. It's just an unnecessarily complicated process if another more suitable system exists.  (I mean, fuck it, I've got MERP if all it takes is rejigging an existing system.)

Quote from: Larsdangly;785962I think it is a shame that people feel like something really extraordinary is required of a system for gaming in middle earth. I think that is totally off base. You can run a very satisfying middle earth game using basic D&D. Or just about any well engineered fantasy roleplaying system. What you need is a good sense of the setting and adventures that resonate with the expectations every player brings to that setting. It is basically a problem of DM'ing, not of finding the perfect system. But, people get a bit precious and uptight about this one because it is the great grand daddy of the genre. ToR totally succeeds at capturing the feel of the environment, the look, the monsters, the adventures. It really is great. But, they fell into the special snowflake system trap. In an ideal world this thing would have been written up as a campaign setting for 5E or some other widely available and well liked system.

I disagree. D&D is not a universal fantasy fiction emulator; it was designed as a dungeon exploration and skirmish game. You can put it into whatever genre you want, I suppose, but it will work better with some than with others.

In the case of Middle Earth, the major struggle of the protagonists is the against temptation and despair, not acquiring gold in dungeons. D&D has nothing that remotely models temptation and despair. The One Ring is built around that struggle, and the benefit of fellowship and havens. It's a far better match than D&D for a game that tries to model the themes and conflicts of LotR. The problem is the messiness and disorganization of the rules.

I picked up the revised edition at GenCon, and -- so far as just "reading the book" goes -- I really dig it.  It's a fantastically well-made product, the artwork is spot on for evoking Tolkien, font is nice and readable while also having some flair and maintaining feel, yadda yadda yadda.  

In terms of actual gameplay, I'm not sure I'm ever going to.  I've made a few characters and I like what I see, there, but the mechanic just feels kind of clunky, and the more narrative-playstyle-stuff they've got feels very bolted on and at odds with the rest of the system.  It's all very characterful and evocative of Tolkien's work, but at the same time it feels like a weird Frankenstein of story-gaming and hard crunch, all mixed together.

So I've enjoyed it.  I'm glad I bought it, even.  They're very well written books, put together nicely, and they've got some great story hooks and campaign advice for anyone going for that sort of feel in ANY fantasy RPG.

But I'm not sure if I'll be able to sell my group on it, to ever actual sling some dice and try it out.

Quote from: Haffrung;786048I disagree. D&D is not a universal fantasy fiction emulator; it was designed as a dungeon exploration and skirmish game. You can put it into whatever genre you want, I suppose, but it will work better with some than with others.

In the case of Middle Earth, the major struggle of the protagonists is the against temptation and despair, not acquiring gold in dungeons. D&D has nothing that remotely models temptation and despair. The One Ring is built around that struggle, and the benefit of fellowship and havens. It's a far better match than D&D for a game that tries to model the themes and conflicts of LotR. The problem is the messiness and disorganization of the rules.

I disagree as completely as one can disagree with someone about a trivial subject like this.

Roleplaying in Middle Earth may or may not have the sort of feel you describe; perhaps one is focused on personal struggles, emotional reactions to temptation, etc. Or perhaps one is focused on escaping from the Great Goblin with using some sort of fire spell you just got the last time you leveled up. Both are perfectly valid (just in general) and in keeping with different parts of the 'canon'.

I don't think there is any need for rules to support the notions of temptation or corruption in a roleplaying game. Actually, one could make the case that rules are the last thing you want to model this sort of behavioral and decision making process. The essence of role playing is the player making decisions about the character's actions, and then dealing with the consequences of those decisions. A rule that forces you to behave a certain way turns you into a spectator.

As for the magic in middle earth being inconsistent with D&D — total hog wash. Name one spell or magical effect that can't be modeled with a spell I can find in some standard D&D source.

Quote from: Larsdangly;786057As for the magic in middle earth being inconsistent with D&D — total hog wash. Name one spell or magical effect that can't be modeled with a spell I can find in some standard D&D source.

It's not that D&D spells can't emulate Tolkien-esque magical effects. It's that the philosophy is completely different. It's that if you had the D&D magic system as it stands in a Middle Earth game, it would rapidly become something totally alien to everything Tolkien seemed to think about magic and the nature of magical power, and every aspect of how magic is used in the Lord of the Rings. It's one of the main things that is off key about MERP.

It's not just magic that is that way. It's the D&D combat system too, which is in my view wildly inappropriate for a Middle Earth game.

Quote from: Critias;786052In terms of actual gameplay, I'm not sure I'm ever going to.  I've made a few characters and I like what I see, there, but the mechanic just feels kind of clunky, and the more narrative-playstyle-stuff they've got feels very bolted on and at odds with the rest of the system.  It's all very characterful and evocative of Tolkien's work, but at the same time it feels like a weird Frankenstein of story-gaming and hard crunch, all mixed together.

That's a shame as IME TOR plays better than it reads.

The one mechanic that can go either way is the Journey mechanic, which some groups treat as a simple series of rolls and some use as inspiration for all kinds of adventure on a journey.