Some of you may not have heard (there might be one or two of you out there who don't actually read my blog, or any other source of RPG news), but Ken Hite and Robin Laws are designing a new version of the Call of Cthulhu RPG, using a new system called the "gumshoe" system.
Until now they've been relatively quiet about exactly what take they're going to have on the whole Cthulhu thing, perhaps in part because they aren't totally decided yet, as evidence by their recent survey wherein they asked gamers what they wanted from a new Cthulhu game.
Ideally, a new Cthulhu game, in being closer to the original material, would be more action-oriented and less focused on chastising gamers who do anything other than totally non-violent investigation; I always found it funny that the Cthulhu Swine insist that any player who has a gun isn't "doing it right" somehow, as if once we complete the investigating part we're just supposed to go up to the ghastly beastly thing and ask it very politely to "please stop being an ineffable monstrosity from beyond the limits of human comprehension".
Unfortunately, I'm willing to bet that the new game will be just the opposite, and go further in that direction.
Sadly, D20 CoC would certainly have been the better product, had it been allowed to live.
Incidentally, does anyone out there know any details about this "GUMSHOE" system that they plan to use?
RPGPundit
QuoteI always found it funny that the Cthulhu Swine insist that any player who has a gun isn't "doing it right" somehow, as if once we complete the investigating part we're just supposed to go up to the ghastly beastly thing and ask it very politely to "please stop being an ineffable monstrosity from beyond the limits of human comprehension".
I don't know about carrying a gun or not, but in the face of an ineffable monstrosity isn't a gun just a fashion accessory? (http://www.hoodyhoo.com/kodt05.htm)
QuoteSadly, D20 CoC would certainly have been the better product, had it been allowed to live.
So why was such a run-away ultra popular bright and shining future money maker allowed to die? :pundit:
QuoteIncidentally, does anyone out there know any details about this "GUMSHOE" system that they plan to use?
I bet at least one of the posters here does. ;)
The name sure suggests it is detective orientated. I'm more curious about how well it will cover the whole detective genere....which would imply better coverage of the use of small firearms and weapons.
Hrms. I don't know. Usually the guns aren't useful against the beasts, they from the stories were for:
A) Stopping Cultists.
B) Shooting at device/objects that brought more than man was meant to know, usually done by accident but still averting momentarily one's doom
C) Ending your own life.
Now that isn't to say that the guns aren't USEFUL--just that their use isn't much if you get to the point of actually meeting the monsters--except of course for option C.
Quote from: blakkieSo why was such a run-away ultra popular bright and shining future money maker allowed to die? :pundit:
Because it was never meant to live. CoC D20 was an exhibition bit, "look what we can do with this new-fangled D20 system". The same goes for the Wheel of Time RPG. CoC D20 apparently sold pretty damn well, but WotC never meant to support it and the folks at Chaosium never liked the system (Chaosium == BRP && D20 == D&D)
It will probably be a whole new system, if Laws gets his hands on it. And it won't work for other game types by the same reason. Now I hear you say that CoC doesn't have just one game type. Well, after the new release, it will.
Um... hate to get in the way of a rant, but I thought he meant that he was adapting Cthulhu for this (http://www.gumshoe-online.com/)
Think the timing has anything to do with the release of the new movie*?
*which looks by the trailers like another Dagon. *shudders*
Nothing from the online survey (http://www.my3q.com/home2/124/profantasy/cthulhu.phtml) points at a computer game (which, by the way, looks like it stepped straight out of the 80s). Then again, nothing implies that this is a general replacement for the Chaosium game, just a licensed sub-game. Detectives & Mythos. Yet the survey is pretty generic...
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalUm... hate to get in the way of a rant, but I thought he meant that he was adapting Cthulhu for this (http://www.gumshoe-online.com/)
Nope. (http://simonjrogers.livejournal.com/tag/gumshoe)
Ah well... probably just wishful thinking then seeing as there are already 2 CoC games out there. Who says that it's just videogame companies who know how to milk a succesful license eh kids?
I don't want a successful CoC computer game. This would only lead to a movie made by something beyond even the Old Ones themselves...
CoC already does action perfectly well, most published scenarios depend on it in fact. The idea it punishes use of guns is a myth.
The main thing that punishes use of guns in CoC is the police in fact.
The new rpg will be investigative in tone, having read into it. I am suspending judgement until it comes out, though the authors being who they are make me reasonably confident it will be a fun game.
Quote from: SosthenesI don't want a successful CoC computer game. This would only lead to a movie made by something beyond even the Old Ones themselves...
My favourite Lovecraftian flicks are
In the Mouth of Madness and that B&W
Call of Cthulhu, both of them faithful to the original stories in their own ways.
Quote from: BalbinusThe new rpg will be investigative in tone, having read into it. I am suspending judgement until it comes out, though the authors being who they are make me reasonably confident it will be a fun game.
Surely it's completely redundant though? If they wanted to bring out a proper noir Private Dick game I'd be interested but throwing Cthulhu into the mix immediately makes it seem derivative, lazy and vainly attempting to include fantastical elements in a bid to increase sales.
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalSurely it's completely redundant though? If they wanted to bring out a proper noir Private Dick game I'd be interested but throwing Cthulhu into the mix immediately makes it seem derivative, lazy and vainly attempting to include fantastical elements in a bid to increase sales.
I suspect it's more a labour of love to be honest, the system though was originally developed for a different setting. This is it being adapted, and I suspect has much to do with Hite's love of the original stories.
As for redundant, I don't know, if it's well executed and fun to play then that's justification enough for me. Couldn't one just as well ask why create a new fantasy rpg when we already have DnD?
That said, if it's any good I will almost certainly drop the CoC elements so as to focus on a pure investigative game much as you describe, so I guess I don't see those as adding much necessarily either.
On the other hand, at least everyone wouldn't have memorised the damn monsters' stats which can be a problem nowadays with CoC.
Quote from: RPGPunditIdeally, a new Cthulhu game, in being closer to the original material, would be more action-oriented and less focused on chastising gamers who do anything other than totally non-violent investigation; I always found it funny that the Cthulhu Swine insist that any player who has a gun isn't "doing it right" somehow, as if once we complete the investigating part we're just supposed to go up to the ghastly beastly thing and ask it very politely to "please stop being an ineffable monstrosity from beyond the limits of human comprehension".
Yeah, OMG this one time I heard there were these stupid powergaming munchkins that instead of getting eaten or going crazy like proper investigators they stopped Cthulhu by ramming him with a ship. What stupid wankers, HPL must've been rolling over in his grave.
I only played Cthulhu once, with an awesome GM. Had a blast, and guns were a part of it. Horror coming from knowing that you are cursed and hunted by an angry spirit from beyond is much better than 'OMG nothing hurts it.'
I don't know -- I really like Nemesis (from Dennis Detwiller), and if I run anything Cthulhu in the future there's a very good chance that I will use that.
Quote from: blakkieI don't know about carrying a gun or not, but in the face of an ineffable monstrosity isn't a gun just a fashion accessory? (http://www.hoodyhoo.com/kodt05.htm)
Why the problem with letting characters have them then? If it really makes no fucking difference?
QuoteSo why was such a run-away ultra popular bright and shining future money maker allowed to die? :pundit:
The D20 CoC book was a huge success. The line was cancelled by Chaosium because, in short, Chaosium is run by retards. In the longer explanation: Chaosium is run by retards who try to re-release the same book over and over again in new "editions" and would rather keep doing that than actually do any work with a product like that equated to a money-printing machine for them; they were scared that D20 CoC's success would kill BRP CoC, which is really a very stupid fear. Ultimately, the people in charge of Chaosium were anti-D20.
RPGPundit
Quote from: SosthenesBecause it was never meant to live. CoC D20 was an exhibition bit, "look what we can do with this new-fangled D20 system". The same goes for the Wheel of Time RPG. CoC D20 apparently sold pretty damn well, but WotC never meant to support it and the folks at Chaosium never liked the system (Chaosium == BRP && D20 == D&D)
Wizards wasn't allowed, by nature of the deal they made with chaosium, to release any products for D20 CoC. I have it on good stead that certain people in there desperately wanted to, and were shocked when Chaosium dumped D20 CoC in what could only be described as one of the most boneheaded moves in the history of RPGs.
RPGPundit
It isn't so much the police or anything else in the game mechanics or setting that discourages the use of guns, its this conception that the Swine have created that somehow that isn't an appropriate part of the "Lovecraft emulation" to try to use weapons or to have characters that are capable in combat situations; conveniently ignoring things like FBI raids on voodoo cultists, bombing the deep one's city, and ramming Cthulhu with a ship in the fucking main short story, for fuck's sake.
Meanwhile, GUMSHOE apparently = resource management game.
Shit.
RPGPundit
The CoC rules recommend that some characters should be physically capable, that's good enough for me.
As for CoC d20, I think it was flawed in many ways and I think there have been far better d20 games. For me, much as I wanted to like it (and I did) I thought it ultimately failed as a game.
You differ and that's fine, but I think there are far better iterations of d20 than CoC and I don't ultimately think CoC d20 was good enough to really merit survival.
Here's what I know. The new game will:
•Be written by Ken Hite
•Use the Gumshoe system designed by Robin Laws.
•Be set in the 1930s
•Have it's own name
And that's what I have for now.
Quote from: RPGPunditWhy the problem with letting characters have them then? If it really makes no fucking difference?
No problem at all. If there is a version that disallows or doesn't have rules for pistols I've yet to see it. But then I haven't read them all.
However, as was pointed out above, a CoC game is typically set in 'civil' society where the repeated and brazen discharge of weapons is likely to bring stark negative reprocusions....unless you are a Gman as part of a big bug hunt.
Speaking of which I have to get to my SR game I'm a player in. At the end of last session we had just gotten pulled over (long story, but for not for something we did). I've got to figure out how to clear things up before they do a strip search and find the machine pistol I have tucked in my Actioneer Suit. The one loaded with armor piercing rounds. :o
Quote from: RPGPunditI always found it funny that the Cthulhu Swine insist that any player who has a gun isn't "doing it right" somehow, as if once we complete the investigating part we're just supposed to go up to the ghastly beastly thing and ask it very politely to "please stop being an ineffable monstrosity from beyond the limits of human comprehension".
Weird. I've been playing
CoC on and off again since its original publication, and I don't think I've ever met any of these alleged "Cthulhu Swine". Are you sure you aren't just imagining a conflict where none truly exists? Perhaps this is a reaction-formation to the (ill-informed) accusations that
CoC D20 encouraged hack-n-slay
CoC play? The counter-hostility should be beneath you.
The fact of the matter is that a player who has a character with
only a gun doesn't understand the game.
Delta Green went a long way toward establishing a solid pairing of firepower with intelligence gathering. It happily embraces the so-called "hack-n-slay" mentality, but it butresses it with a "think-or-die" sensibility.
!i!
Quote from: BalbinusThe CoC rules recommend that some characters should be physically capable, that's good enough for me.
As for CoC d20, I think it was flawed in many ways and I think there have been far better d20 games. For me, much as I wanted to like it (and I did) I thought it ultimately failed as a game.
You differ and that's fine, but I think there are far better iterations of d20 than CoC and I don't ultimately think CoC d20 was good enough to really merit survival.
All I can say to this is that I actually played in a campaign of CoC d20 that lasted for the better part of a year (an adapted Beyond the Mountains of Madness) and it ran fantastically well. I've played the BRP over the years, and don't see that the d20 version "failed" or wasn't "good enough" to last. Matter of fact, the game seemed pretty damned successful as a design, based on how smoothly it ran in actual play.
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaWeird. I've been playing CoC on and off again since its original publication, and I don't think I've ever met any of these alleged "Cthulhu Swine". Are you sure you aren't just imagining a conflict where none truly exists? Perhaps this is a reaction-formation to the (ill-informed) accusations that CoC D20 encouraged hack-n-slay CoC play? The counter-hostility should be beneath you.
The release of CoC brought that mentality to new heights, as the Cthulhu swine could suddenly unite two of their passions: being pretentious about CoC and hating D20.
However, the issue itself existed long before that. Throughout the 90s, a mentality developed in the CoC fandom where certain section believed that the Cthulhu game was meant to be about "investigation" and roleplaying your character's subsequent break down or death, or trying to find some way of stopping the evil alien menace that didn't involve blowing it all to shit. It became the general consensus among this group that somehow using violence to eliminate the problem was somehow "Not in the true spirit of Lovecraft" even though in almost every Lovecraft story where the good guys actually WIN they do so by blowing the big bad all to shit.
As usual, a considerable faction of these swine are present on RPG.net, or at least they were back in my time there; since then the weight of the evidence might have managed to shut them the fuck up, I wouldn't know for sure.
RPGPundit
Anybody remember American Badass and his CoC game? That certainly had people in a flap.
I agree with Ian, I've never heard of this "swinish" attitude. Everyone I know who's played Cthulhu knows the value of a shotgun.
American Badass ruffled a few feathers initially but by and large his posts were seen as the comedy gold they were. They weren't just combat heavy though, they were insane... they had Jimmy Paige playing at Drizzt Do'Urden's funeral.
Yeah, you could be right. There were people who liked his take on it and people who didn't, as I recall.
Personally, I find CoC just as boring either way, so damned if I care.
QuoteWeird. I've been playing CoC on and off again since its original publication, and I don't think I've ever met any of these alleged "Cthulhu Swine".
I've been hearing people espouse the very philosophy that Pundit describes for ages. It seemed to be damn near taken as read on RPGnet, with the exception of the occasional holdout who'd show up now and then and make a thread, or drop into a thread and ask "WTF are you people talking about?" and try, in vain, to point to the source material as reason why this wasn't really the case.
When the FPS game came out, there were even a bunch of people whining about how much shooting of things was involved, claiming it wasn't in the spirit or some crap.
Quote from: blakkieSpeaking of which I have to get to my SR game I'm a player in. At the end of last session we had just gotten pulled over (long story, but for not for something we did). I've got to figure out how to clear things up before they do a strip search and find the machine pistol I have tucked in my Actioneer Suit. The one loaded with armor piercing rounds. :o
*insert evil GM laughter here*
This is one of the few phenomena Pundit yells about that I've actually seen happen. For a while, entirely shaped by my first games of CoC, I did in fact believe that the first spent shell casing meant you were all gonna die. I labored under this awful mindset for several years, before realizing that not only was this outside the source fiction, it wasn't much fun.
Look, I must disagree. Everyone knows that confronting a Mythos horror with a firearm is inappropriate.
You use a chainsaw and napalm.
Andrew
Quote from: SamarkandYou use a chainsaw and napalm.
Against Deep Ones and Shoggoths, respectively.
Quote from: GrimGentAgainst Deep Ones and Shoggoths, respectively.
Chainsaws and napalm are pretty much universally useful against your mid-level Mythos horror. So are explosives, to be frank, but the current political climate tends to make the acquisition/use/improvisation of plastique a bit problematic. Whereas with the aforementioned measures, effective defense of the earth from horrors eating away at the supports of reality is just a combination of a hardware store and service station away.
I will allow that shotguns are one exception to the caveat about firearms. One is the traditional aspect of a boomstick-wielding monster hunter. The other is that, while trying to hit center of mass with pistol or rifle caliber bullets is problematic in a writhing mass of tentacles, the application of double ought buck or a slug will hit *something*. Worries about overpenetration are beside the point because, hey, anyone you hit on the other side is a) a cultist or b) probably better off dead anyway if things go south.
Mind you, the use of a double-barrelled shottie is inadvisable. Stylish and concealable by sawing off the barrels, yes, but in any mythos confrontation rapid and above all *frantic* emptying of large capacity magazines is de rigeur. The Saiga-12 with 8 round magazine has become a favoured tool in the discerning investigator's arsenal.
Remember: support your Second Amendment rights to keep and bear arms against abominations from beyond space and time.
Quote from: Christmas ApeThis is one of the few phenomena Pundit yells about that I've actually seen happen. .
I've seen it as well.
Quote from: JongWK*insert evil GM laughter here*
Yah well fortunately he's a shifty bastard...with 7 Edge. I was rolling for crap last night, all night long. :/ Fortunately in that particular instance the Lone Star officer rolled really crappy for frisking me. Gave us time to get a connected contact mobilized and to bail us out. :p
Anyway, all in all, I'm not sure why the complaining about CoC D20 being killed. If Col. can play for a year that says to me the game is pretty much complete asis. I'm pretty sure there are at least a couple dual stat setting books beyond the inital CoC D20. I don't know if Chaosium has continued on that with that. That might have been their initial plan, to continue with both? So they sub-license to WotC to build the base of the second line for them. *shrug* I know some publishers have found dualstating books to really cut into their bottomline and generally not be worth. Maybe they realized it wasn't going to be worth it and picked the system they were most comfortable with....one that last I checked still had weapons.
EDIT: That would certainly fit with not letting WotC release supplement books with CoC IP.
Quote from: blakkieAnyway, all in all, I'm not sure why the complaining about CoC D20 being killed. If Col. can play for a year that says to me the game is pretty much complete asis.
Yeah, it is. The single core book is enough, really. I have the Keeper's screen for the game, and I looked at some of the dual-stat books, of which I had most of the original versions. I have a ton of the BRP version's books, and I don't see that there is all that much difficulty in adapting them for the d20 version. This is both because the d20 version covers most of the contingencies covered by the BRP version, making plug 'n' play pretty smooth, and because the BRP books are really, really rules-light.
Quote from: blakkieI'm pretty sure there are at least a couple dual stat setting books beyond the inital CoC D20.
Yes, I remember seeing a few. Let's see...the Dunwich, Kingsport, and Arkham sourcebooks all had dual-stat versions published.
Quote from: blakkieI don't know if Chaosium has continued on that with that. That might have been their initial plan, to continue with both?
That's how it seemed to me at the time. It looks like they dropped the dual-stat thing after just a few tries.
Quote from: blakkieSo they sub-license to WotC to build the base of the second line for them. *shrug* I know some publishers have found dualstating books to really cut into their bottomline and generally not be worth.
The dual-stat releases Chaosium did seemed generally lackluster. The original source material was good, sure, but as I said above, there wasn't much to adapting those books to CoC d20. It seemed like they did the absolute bare minimum required, rather than actually trying to expand upon the game.
Quote from: Christmas ApeThis is one of the few phenomena Pundit yells about that I've actually seen happen. For a while, entirely shaped by my first games of CoC, I did in fact believe that the first spent shell casing meant you were all gonna die. I labored under this awful mindset for several years, before realizing that not only was this outside the source fiction, it wasn't much fun.
You see that sort of attitude all the time in Shadowrun Dumpshock forums too. It isn't even entirely misplaced, it is just that the ideal is quiet and lowkey in most urban civilized settings. But crap happens. Just is a few people get more bent out of shape about failing and don't like the guns blazing aspect that the rules mostly support, and some GMs feel it is their duty to really punish making a "mistake". A nice idea taken overboard. *shrug*
The "weapons are useless in CoC" argument is a fucking stupid thing. Cultist die when shot. Almost all the minor races die when shot, and many mid-level beast can be destroyed by gunfire.
Also, in canon stories people shot, bomb, burn or ram the fucking things with fucking ships. If you enter the cult's den and sweep them with gunfire, you're emulating the inspector John Legrasse.
The point against weapons is don't think that weapons alone will save you. Guns won't prevent you from going insane, or make you dodge better. Some monsters are not damaged by them, actually. And most important, guns may be illegal depending on the time and place you play.
And that's all.
It's been a defining characteristic of Lovecraft's stories that humans are not the centre of the universe. That they are not the most powerful, important or influential beings on Earth. Characters in those stories don't "succeed" because they are better, stronger or smarter than the other side. They usually just get lucky.
I think it's difficult to give players a fulfilling game experience, if they cannot win through skill or smarts, but only mere luck. So you either keep a solid game going, where skill and intelligence makes all the difference or you run a game where beating the Mythos isn't achieved through actual player skill. I'm not sure if the two are compatible, but I really don't think I'd enjoy the latter.
It'd be interested to find a CoC game that is not about whether you can beat back the Mythos, but how much you have to sacrifice to do so. The players would have to achieve goal X, but will try to keep their character as intact as possible. That might be the only way to combine actual player contribution with Lovecraft's feel of "humans aren't the be-all and end-all of life".
As a long-time keeper, I'd say that guns have a perfectly legitimate use in CoC. If you want to keep your investigators sane and alive for more than one session, you have to focus your scenarios on their human opponents and only let the beasties make guest appearances (unless the PJs fuck up big time, of course). In this perspective guns are extremely useful to the investigators. Of course, said opponents may take being fired at very personnaly and the various law enforcement agencies may strongly object to their use, so...
Concerning d20 CoC, I'd say its 'failure' is due primarily to CoC being a niche market and d20 CoC not offering enough incentive to make the switch to BRP players. I made it, but I was already dissatisfied with BRP, particulary with the way it handled action scenes. This said, from what I read at the time on various French boards, there was also a sizable minority of CoC players who had made 'I'm not a D&D player' a big part of their identity and reacted quite badly to the idea of the new CoC using D&D's system.
I don't know anything about Gumshoe, but I'm definitely in the idea of a private eye game with the Mythos tacked on. I'm even optimistic about it when I remember that tacking the Mythos on X-Files gave us the gem that is Delta Green.
Quote from: WeeklyI'm even optimistic about it when I remember that tacking the Mythos on X-Files gave us the gem that is Delta Green.
Just to be pedantic (and fair to John Tynes & co.), the first Delta Green material published in
The Unspeakable Oath preceded the original airing of
The X-Files by some months. It appears to have been a case of parallel evolution.
!i!
Hite and Laws are the exact people I'd trust for an endeavor of this sort. I'm not worried about this at all.
Quote from: WeeklyI don't know anything about Gumshoe, but I'm definitely in the idea of a private eye game with the Mythos tacked on. I'm even optimistic about it when I remember that tacking the Mythos on X-Files gave us the gem that is Delta Green.
I looked through the blog a bit that was linked and they have some playtesting notes on Gumshoe. It looks very mystery centric with adhoc tools to create clues (I think?) rather than starting out with hard set truth and having players try find that, potentially grope around and/or stumble onto it blind. But that's just an initial impression.
The playtest also notes an effect I thought was interesting. There were more complaints of percieved "railroading" when the GM was letting the players steer things more. I've seen something like that once. It was like the player didn't actually believe he was in control. Years of that sort of thing cynism lead to him
expecting to be railroaded, so he saw it everywhere. Of course it also paralyzed him, so in some ways he was "railroaded"....by the other players. :rolleyes:
Quote from: blakkieThe playtest also notes an effect I thought was interesting. There were more complaints of percieved "railroading" when the GM was letting the players steer things more. I've seen something like that once. It was like the player didn't actually believe he was in control. Years of that sort of thing cynism lead to him expecting to be railroaded, so he saw it everywhere. Of course it also paralyzed him, so in some ways he was "railroaded"....by the other players. :rolleyes:
I've seen that before. It seems like no matter how many times I repeat it, sometimes after a game they'll ask "Is that what we were supposed to do?" You were supposed to do anything, it is what it is. Even online I can say that I don't have a preconcieved notion of how things should go, but people tend to presume I'm doing illusionism and really have a goal in mind.
As far as mystery games, I read an excellent way to run on on the Forge. Don't worry, not a bit of theory-speak contained herein, just plain english.
Many times, IME, mystery games can be unsatisfying. If you look at mystery stories, they usually have Sherlock Holmes or whoever notice tiny, seemingly irrelevent bits of information then put that together to solve the mystery. Now how do you do this in a roleplaying game? If the GM tries to describe these seemingly irrelevent details the players can find they are drowning in them. Conversely if he just gives them the important ones it feels like he's pretty much giving you the answer. And oftentimes the players won't see the puzzle or will miss a vital notice roll and end up not knowing what to do. I've played in games where we sat doing nothing with the GM going "Come on guys it's SO obvious!" for hours.
It sucks, and I'm very opposed to suck. That's when I saw this technique on the Forge. It proposed that rather than throw data at the PCs and hope the put it together to work it the other way. Present the PCs with the mystery and let them propose a possible theory. The GM knows the real answer so he can evaluate how close they are. Once they have some kind of theory, *then* the search checks come out to see if they can find clues that confirm or deny different parts of the theory. This continues until the villian is revealed.
I've not gotten a chance to try it, but it looks very promising!
Quote from: WeeklyConcerning d20 CoC, I'd say its 'failure' is due primarily to CoC being a niche market and d20 CoC not offering enough incentive to make the switch to BRP players. I made it, but I was already dissatisfied with BRP, particulary with the way it handled action scenes. This said, from what I read at the time on various French boards, there was also a sizable minority of CoC players who had made 'I'm not a D&D player' a big part of their identity and reacted quite badly to the idea of the new CoC using D&D's system.
No, you have to understand: D20 CoC wasn't an economic failure. It was discontinued for reasons that had nothing to do with business.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditNo, you have to understand: D20 CoC wasn't an economic failure. It was discontinued for reasons that had nothing to do with business.
RPGPundit
Sources?
Being a long-time BRP CoC fan, and d20 CoC book owner, i've always wondered what the deal was. IIRC, the only thing that ever came out was the core book and GM Screen. (
and supposedly the new Delta Green printing will be dual-stated for BRP/d20)
-k
Quote from: kregmosierSources?
Being a long-time BRP CoC fan, and d20 CoC book owner, i've always wondered what the deal was. IIRC, the only thing that ever came out was the core book and GM Screen. (and supposedly the new Delta Green printing will be dual-stated for BRP/d20)
-k
No, as mentioned earlier in the thread, there were 3 (at least) dual-statted products released.
There was also the sole D20 CoC campaign book, "Nocturnum".
Anyways, I don't go around hording all my sources. You'll have to take my word for it.
RPGPundit
It was Chaosium that dropped the ball on d20 CoC supplements, if I remember. WotC just made the corebook and let 'em run with it, not unlike the Dragonlance situation.
Quote from: Sojourner JudasIt was Chaosium that dropped the ball on d20 CoC supplements, if I remember. WotC just made the corebook and let 'em run with it, not unlike the Dragonlance situation.
Well, if neither Wizards nor Chaosium put out supplements, I'd say they both dropped the ball. Wizards dropped the ball and put it on Chaosium, which has a lot less resources.
As far as I can tell, the core rulebook was a very uneasy joint venture which neither side was much invested in. They wrote their parts (rules and background) independently, then stitched it together. Wizards was just testing the waters for branch-off D20 games (like Wheel of Time), and never intended to support it. Chaosium just wanted some more publicity for Call of Cthulhu via the WotC machine.
Quote from: jhkimWell, if neither Wizards nor Chaosium put out supplements, I'd say they both dropped the ball. Wizards dropped the ball and put it on Chaosium, which has a lot less resources.
The contract didn't allow WOTC to produce support products; that was Chaosium's job.
QuoteAs far as I can tell, the core rulebook was a very uneasy joint venture which neither side was much invested in. They wrote their parts (rules and background) independently, then stitched it together. Wizards was just testing the waters for branch-off D20 games (like Wheel of Time), and never intended to support it. Chaosium just wanted some more publicity for Call of Cthulhu via the WotC machine.
WOTC handed Chaosium a license to print money--something they still need in desperate quantities--and for reasons having to do with petty politics Chaosium shat on it. Even the reasonable detractors of d20 at the time knew this to be a stupid idea.
Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerWOTC handed Chaosium a license to print money--something they still need in desperate quantities--and for reasons having to do with petty politics Chaosium shat on it. Even the reasonable detractors of d20 at the time knew this to be a stupid idea.
The D20 craze was a philosophical disconnect for Chaosium, and an odd fit for their flagship game. Frankly, Chaosium wasn't the company to capitalise on an opportunity that had the appearance of selling out on their in-house design.
!i!
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaThe D20 craze was a philosophical disconnect for Chaosium, and an odd fit for their flagship game. Frankly, Chaosium wasn't the company to capitalise on an opportunity that had the appearance of selling out on their in-house design.
I'd really say that the d20 version was one of the better-done conversions I've really seen. Nicely written, painstakingly put together, and keeping the best aspects of the original.
Is it bad of me that the d20 games I've liked best were licensed WotC one-shots that never went anywhere because of the restrictiveness of the license they were under? Between this and Wheel of Time I see some of WotC's finest gamecraft. Heck, I could even put the Dragonlance corebook under that, because damned if Sovereign Press can seem to do much with the license that even remotely interests me. That mystifies me, considering they're a company
started by the setting's creators.
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaThe D20 craze was a philosophical disconnect for Chaosium, and an odd fit for their flagship game. Frankly, Chaosium wasn't the company to capitalise on an opportunity that had the appearance of selling out on their in-house design.
!i!
Kenny: What's a sell out?
Cartman: Anyone who makes any money in the entertainment industry.
Well, they mustn't do anything that might make Chaosium stable and profitable. Why, if they had to run it like real company that might cut into their yog-sothoth.com time!
I can't understand it. They made a great, great game that has been a favorite for decades. They followed it up with intermittent releases of the best supplements the genre's ever seen.
How can you fuck that up?
Just ask them.
C'mon Chaosium, finish going tits up. Please? Maybe then the German licensee will take over and we'll see what would happen if CoC was put out by a company instead of Fatbeards Anonymous.
Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerThe contract didn't allow WOTC to produce support products; that was Chaosium's job.
That's a license which both of them negotiated. I am highly doubtful that the 300-pound gorilla of Wizards was at a disadvantage in the negotiation. I also think Wizards wouldn't
want to make support products, because of the well-known principle (a la Ryan Dancy) that the majority of RPG profits come from the core book -- while adventures are a lot of work for little direct gain that simply feeds sales of the core book.
Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerWOTC handed Chaosium a license to print money--something they still need in desperate quantities--and for reasons having to do with petty politics Chaosium shat on it. Even the reasonable detractors of d20 at the time knew this to be a stupid idea.
The idea that making a D20 version of your game is a "license to print money" is bullshit. The market is seen tons of D20 games, including many popular licenses like Wheel of Time, Stargate, Farscape, EverQuest, World of Warcraft, etc. A few of them -- like Conan -- have been successful. However, it's by no means a sure thing.
From two surveys I've seen, the D20 version of Cthulhu was not typically preferred by existing CoC fans. So there's no particular leverage there. That makes it just another in the list of D20 licensed games to the general D20 market -- and further one which would likely compete with Chaosium's own Call of Cthulhu core book.
Quote from: jhkimFrom two surveys I've seen, the D20 version of Cthulhu was not typically preferred by existing CoC fans. So there's no particular leverage there.
Existing CoC fans often have the same sort of attitude I attribute to existing Palladium fans. Sort of a battered spouse syndrome that comes from a company that steadfastly refuses to bring their ruleset into the modern gaming market and up their production values beyond what was popular in the 70's and 80's.
And I say that as a person who owns an
assload of Chaosium stuff.
Quote from: jhkimWell, if neither Wizards nor Chaosium put out supplements, I'd say they both dropped the ball. Wizards dropped the ball and put it on Chaosium, which has a lot less resources.
As far as I can tell, the core rulebook was a very uneasy joint venture which neither side was much invested in. They wrote their parts (rules and background) independently, then stitched it together. Wizards was just testing the waters for branch-off D20 games (like Wheel of Time), and never intended to support it. Chaosium just wanted some more publicity for Call of Cthulhu via the WotC machine.
Wizards wasn't ALLOWED to produce material for it. That was part of the deal.
It was Chaosium's decision, Chaosium dropped the ball; Chaosium took a money-printing machine and shat on it for ideological reasons.
RPGPundit
Quote from: jhkimThat's a license which both of them negotiated. I am highly doubtful that the 300-pound gorilla of Wizards was at a disadvantage in the negotiation. I also think Wizards wouldn't want to make support products, because of the well-known principle (a la Ryan Dancy) that the majority of RPG profits come from the core book -- while adventures are a lot of work for little direct gain that simply feeds sales of the core book.
Sure, fine. Wizards probably readily agreed to the contract which stipulated they couldn't put out supplements, because it wasn't their plan to put out supplements in the first place. It still means that it was ENTIRELY Chaosium's fortune to easily generate or stupidly walk away from, and they chose the latter.
QuoteThe idea that making a D20 version of your game is a "license to print money" is bullshit. The market is seen tons of D20 games, including many popular licenses like Wheel of Time, Stargate, Farscape, EverQuest, World of Warcraft, etc. A few of them -- like Conan -- have been successful. However, it's by no means a sure thing.
Call of Cthulhu wasn't like any of those. It was an already existing RPG that was already wildly popular, and the main book turned out to be a brilliantly-designed book that was already wildly successful. The least bit of effort on chaosium's part would have guaranteed profits.
QuoteFrom two surveys I've seen, the D20 version of Cthulhu was not typically preferred by existing CoC fans. So there's no particular leverage there. That makes it just another in the list of D20 licensed games to the general D20 market -- and further one which would likely compete with Chaosium's own Call of Cthulhu core book.
No, it wouldn't. You just said it: the majority of EXISTING CoC fans didn't prefer it. There was no chance BRP was going to go tits up if D20 CoC existed. Shit, most of the "existing CoC fans" (ie. drooling cthulhu fanatics like me) would have bought the D20 books even if it wasn't the system they "preferred" just because it was CoC material anyways.
And what they WOULD have gained is all the D20 fans, most of whom dig Cthulhu but didn't want to play BRP.
You know, the not-yet-existing fans? The ones you desperately want to gain?
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditCall of Cthulhu wasn't like any of those. It was an already existing RPG that was already wildly popular, and the main book turned out to be a brilliantly-designed book that was already wildly successful. The least bit of effort on chaosium's part would have guaranteed profits.
I'm not convinced that there's a risk-free fortune to be made publishing RPG adventures for
any game, whether that's D&D, Vampire: The Masquerade, or whatever. Maybe you've got some unique RPG wisdom, but from everything that I've heard from industry people, published adventures are part of the "supplement treadmill". They don't really make you much profit, but they keep your game line alive.
From what I've seen, Chaosium has trouble keeping up with the treadmill for their own "wildly popular" RPG. Remember that any time taken out to do D20 products (which feeds the sales of Wizards' core book) is time taken away from doing projects which feed the sales of their own core book.
Quote from: RPGPunditCall of Cthulhu wasn't like any of those. It was an already existing RPG that was already wildly popular, and the main book turned out to be a brilliantly-designed book that was already wildly successful.
You know, Pundit, I'd really like to see some figures about CoC popularity. I'm a big CoC fan too, it's the only game I GMed more than D&D, but I can't help thinking CoC is well past its success years. The vibe I'm getting in France, tough I admit I've got no more hard data than you have, is that a majority of gamers have heard about it, but only old hands like you and me are still running it.
Quote from: RPGPunditThe least bit of effort on chaosium's part would have guaranteed profits.
I kinda agree with this. The only thing they had to do was to come up with one single damn new idea. I despaired when I realised they only intended to reissue existing material with dual stats. [/Rant] Shit, I wasn't asking for another Delta Green, but how did they not understand they had to release something actually new and at least a bit exciting to revive the market ?! Maybe the Pulp Cthulhu book would have been enough. CoC is a game where system truly doesn't matter, as long as you don't touch SAN. There is no significant gameplay difference between BRP and d20, despite BRP die-hards claims : changing the system alone wasn't going to accomplish much.[/Rant]
Quote from: RPGPunditYou know, the not-yet-existing fans? The ones you desperately want to gain?
RPGPundit
Sometimes, I wonder if they're actually looking for new fans. Most of their releases seem to be geared towards the existing community. Not that I care, since I'm not likely to buy anything not dual statted.
New Delta Green is on its way ;)
Quote from: ImperatorNew Delta Green is on its way ;)
Is that so ? Hasn't it been on its way for a long time now ?
Quote from: WeeklyIs that so ? Hasn't it been on its way for a long time now ?
Just like Pulp Cthulhu, which was originally going to be dual stats. Quite a few people seemed psyched about it years ago. If they could have put it out within 6 months of CoC D20, it probably would have sold well.
Here's what I found on it:
August 28, 2006 update: Most of this book has now been written. Art direction has not yet begun. We hope to release PC Winter 2007.
Quote from: NicephorusJust like Pulp Cthulhu, which was originally going to be dual stats. Quite a few people seemed psyched about it years ago. If they could have put it out within 6 months of CoC D20, it probably would have sold well.
Pulp Cthulhu-that-was : the last best hope for CoC. It failed. And didn't become something greater...
Bitter ? Me ?! Not the least...
Quote from: jhkimI'm not convinced that there's a risk-free fortune to be made publishing RPG adventures for any game, whether that's D&D, Vampire: The Masquerade, or whatever. Maybe you've got some unique RPG wisdom, but from everything that I've heard from industry people, published adventures are part of the "supplement treadmill". They don't really make you much profit, but they keep your game line alive.
I'm fairly convinced that D20 CoC would have been big profits.
But it didn't really have to be "big profits" to be a smart business move; it just had to be MORE profit than doing exactly the same thing with BRP CoC.
QuoteFrom what I've seen, Chaosium has trouble keeping up with the treadmill for their own "wildly popular" RPG. Remember that any time taken out to do D20 products (which feeds the sales of Wizards' core book) is time taken away from doing projects which feed the sales of their own core book.
Yes, and profits from producing the oh-so-despised D20 books would have given them a buffer zone to allow them to publish their oh-so-superior regular books with security.
RPGPundit
re: the DG reprint...
it's printed, the boxes have been ordered and shipped (from China iirc), but are apparently still in-transit.
most d20 fans should even be excited that d20 CoC was EVER in print, if only for the fact that there was/will be occasional releases with dual-stats.
(even though it reminds me of N*SYNC covering a "Pink Floyd" song...) ;)
-k
Quote from: NicephorusJust like Pulp Cthulhu, which was originally going to be dual stats. Quite a few people seemed psyched about it years ago. If they could have put it out within 6 months of CoC D20, it probably would have sold well.
Here's what I found on it:
August 28, 2006 update: Most of this book has now been written. Art direction has not yet begun. We hope to release PC Winter 2007.
Yeah, the original dual-statted book was one I was really chomping at the bit for.
Big, big example of them dropping the ball and not using the popularity of the d20 book to drive sales.
Quote from: WeeklyYou know, Pundit, I'd really like to see some figures about CoC popularity. I'm a big CoC fan too, it's the only game I GMed more than D&D, but I can't help thinking CoC is well past its success years. The vibe I'm getting in France, tough I admit I've got no more hard data than you have, is that a majority of gamers have heard about it, but only old hands like you and me are still running it.
From the 1999 Wizards of the Coast
Adventure Game Survey (http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/wotcdemo.html)... When asked what games TRPG players play monthly, the answers (multiple choices allowed) were:
D&D: 66%
Vampire: The Masquerade: 25%
Star Wars: 21%
Palladium: 16%
Werewolf: The Apocalypse: 15%
Shadowrun: 15%
Star Trek: 12%
Call of Cthulu: 8%
Legend of the Five Rings: 8%
Deadlands: 5%
Alternity: 4%
GURPS: 3%
So at the time it was still pretty widely played (i.e. out of all roleplayers, 1 out of 12 played CoC monthly). Things might have changed since then, but that is 18 years after it was published, so I don't think it was a fad.
Quote from: WeeklyI despaired when I realised they only intended to reissue existing material with dual stats. [ Rant ] Shit, I wasn't asking for another Delta Green, but how did they not understand they had to release something actually new and at least a bit exciting to revive the market ?! Maybe the Pulp Cthulhu book would have been enough. CoC is a game where system truly doesn't matter, as long as you don't touch SAN. There is no significant gameplay difference between BRP and d20, despite BRP die-hards claims : changing the system alone wasn't going to accomplish much.[ /Rant ]
Er, the existing material was good, proven material -- and it would be going to primarily new D20 players rather than existing BRP CoC players, so there's no problem with releasing "old" stuff since the D20 players mainly haven't seen it before. I've seen two surveys of CoC players, and for both the number preferring the D20 was only around 10-15%.
Quote from: Sojourner JudasBig, big example of them dropping the ball and not using the popularity of the d20 book to drive sales.
Is this the point at which I should remind everyone of
Dragon Lords of Melniboné?
It was honestly hard for me to broach that topic, but I think it goes a long way toward supporting my contention that Chaosium was philosophically at odds with printing D20 books. It simply wasn't what they did* and their heart plainly wasn't in it.
!i!
(*No, don't go pointing out the excellent multi-statted
Thieves' World supplements. That was another time and another world.)
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaIs this the point at which I should remind everyone of Dragon Lords of Melniboné?
It was honestly hard for me to broach that topic, but I think it goes a long way toward supporting my contention that Chaosium was philosophically at odds with printing D20 books. It simply wasn't what they did* and their heart plainly wasn't in it.
I try not to count that one against them, because it came out extremely early on, and at around that point a good 90% of d20 products sucked from the sheer fact that nobody had the knack of it yet.
Quote from: Sojourner JudasI try not to count that one against them, because it came out extremely early on, and at around that point a good 90% of d20 products sucked from the sheer fact that nobody had the knack of it yet.
Come on, they didn't even try. Dragonlords was basically a bad cut-and-paste job. The lack of quality had nothing to do with the fact that D20 was new. If they tried to make a new edition and failed on the mechanics, okay. But if you take 90% of an existing book and add some half-assed D20 notes, it shows that you're mostly trying to make some cash with the least amount of work neccesary.
Quote from: SosthenesCome on, they didn't even try. Dragonlords was basically a bad cut-and-paste job.
Sadly, it was, and I'm not convinced they would have done differently with the
CoC line, considering they were sitting on a library of similarly convertable material.
QuoteBut if you take 90% of an existing book and add some half-assed D20 notes, it shows that you're mostly trying to make some cash with the least amount of work neccesary.
I'll play the apologist for Chaosium, and suggest that what they were trying to do was make some cash while
spending the least amount of
money to produce it. Long story short, I think they fell short of the manpower, the capital, and the drive to catch a ride on the D20 crazy-train.
!i!
Considering that Chaosium has survived for the last ten+ years by reprinting the same set of rules over and over again with virtually no change and calling it a "new edition", you could have something of a point there.
The difference is that the core CoC D20 book was excellent; we aren't talking theoretics here, we're talking something that already actually existed, and was a work of beauty.
After that, it would have been relatively simple and acceptable for them, for starters, to make a shitload of money presenting D20 CoC re-issues of some of their most classic campaigns. Imagine how glorious D20 Masks Of Nyarlathotep could have been?
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditThe difference is that the core CoC D20 book was excellent...
So I've heard. And, it should be pointed out, done by throwing a lot of manpower and money at it from a different angle (i.e. from WotC).
QuoteAfter that, it would have been relatively simple and acceptable for them, for starters, to make a shitload of money presenting D20 CoC re-issues of some of their most classic campaigns. Imagine how glorious D20 Masks Of Nyarlathotep could have been?
Sadly, I have to point to
Dragon Lords of Melniboné again.
Elric!/
Stormbringer was a pretty sweet game with a ready-made audience, too, but simply tacking D20 stats onto existing text came out a stumbling flop. They took a fucking bath on that one. I'm not convinced that D20
Masks... would have fared any better.
Chaosium is currently demoralised. At its heart were Steve Perrin, Sandy Petersen, Greg Stafford, and Lynn Willis. Now it's basically just Charlie Krank (is Lynn still tight with the company?) and it's been this way for years. Maybe the release of the new, compiled
Basic Roleplaying will give them the jolt to the heart they've been needing for a while, though it ain't gonna bring d20
CoC back from the dead.
!i!
Yea but there's a big difference between doing a converted set of RULES and a converted adventure/Campaign. D20 Masks of Nyarlathotep would only have required changing around the NPC stats, and maybe adding one or two new features (a handful of pages at most) to attract people who had bought the earlier BRP version.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaSo I've heard. And, it should be pointed out, done by throwing a lot of manpower and money at it from a different angle (i.e. from WotC).Sadly, I have to point to Dragon Lords of Melniboné again. Elric!/Stormbringer was a pretty sweet game with a ready-made audience, too, but simply tacking D20 stats onto existing text came out a stumbling flop. They took a fucking bath on that one. I'm not convinced that D20 Masks... would have fared any better.
Chaosium is currently demoralised. At its heart were Steve Perrin, Sandy Petersen, Greg Stafford, and Lynn Willis. Now it's basically just Charlie Krank (is Lynn still tight with the company?) and it's been this way for years. Maybe the release of the new, compiled Basic Roleplaying will give them the jolt to the heart they've been needing for a while, though it ain't gonna bring d20 CoC back from the dead.
!i!
I will admit that I wrote a pretty positive review (http://www.enworld.org/reviews.php?do=review&reviewid=2008070) of Dragonlords of Melnibone within a few days of its release. Bear in mind that this was back in the early days of d20, and DLoM was one of the first really major releases by an established publisher other than WotC. But if I wrote that review today, after seeing outstanding licensed d20 books like Conan, Babylon 5, The Black Company, and Thieves World, my estimation of DLoM would be at 2 or 3 stars (out of 5). More like 2 1/2 stars, but the EN World reviews page doesn't allow halves.
Anyway, I agree about Chaosium. It seems odd to me how moribund that company has seemed over the last 10-15 years. It really struck me as a major loss for Pendragon to go to another publisher. Maybe Pendragon wasn't a huge seller, but it was more a prestige thing than anything else. But that's nothing compared to RuneQuest. I still think of it as a Chaosium game, despite how many years of it being published by other companies? Why has Chaosium let so many of its best properties go? It makes no sense.
Probably because Cthulhu was by far their bestseller, and they decided to bet the farm on a one-trick pony, same as Palladium did.
This is generally a mistake even if your product is good; but its a big mistake if your product is uneven and you start running out of ideas (like Palladium), and positively disasterous if you're completely intellectually bankrupt and just keep re-issuing the same old junk, in particular when your game line was once revered as putting out some of the finest products in history (like Chaosium).
RPGPundit
I met Charlie Krank and Greg Stafford many years ago, back when a then mobile Origins visited the LA area. Both were open and friendly. What happened to cause a rift between them I have no idea.
That said, I'd have to say Charlie's behavior since he got Chaosium in his hands is puzzling. He basically killed Chaosium's fiction line, threw away the RPG lines (and that, for all intents and purposes includes Call of Cthulhu), and has made Chaosium, once a leading light among RPG publishers, a subject for a "whatever Happened To" article.
The way things are going we will see Chaosium entering bankruptcy. Based on previous behavior on the part of Charlie Krank, it will be involuntary. When that happens it could mean the end of the Mythos as we know it.
Slightly tangential question, but when does Lovecraft's fiction enter the public domain?
Quote from: Hastur T. FannonSlightly tangential question, but when does Lovecraft's fiction enter the public domain?
Lovecraft died in 1937, so I think that according to current US law that would be in 2012.
It's been argued, however, that Lovecraft's copyrights weren't renewed after his death and his works are already in public domain. Arkham House claims to own them, but there are reasons to doubt their claim (apparently Chaosium used to paid them for the license, but they no longer do).
Penguin have recently put out Lovecraft's better stories and novellas across three volumes of their modern classics range. Houellebecq also included two novellas in his recent (devastatingly poor) book about Lovecraft (in which he concludes that Lovecraft's like... really bleak).
Either Arkham House aren't too bothered about spreading the love to other publishers or they've effecitvely given up defending them because if they're trying to sell books then it seems weird they'd allow all these competing editions.