Quote from: SHARK;1111434Greetings!

You know, my friend, I was working on some campaign stuff for my world, and I was developing this whole civilization that dominated a vast continent beyond a huge mountain range, and dense, ancient forests. *Vast* Imagine a land like Siberia, beyond the Ural Mountains. Non-Human humanoids, with teal and green skin, large, pointed ears, larger, somewhat *slanted* eyes, graceful and athletic physiques. Primitive tribal societies, divided into distinct tribes, and led by powerful chieftains, and groups of shamans. These peoples have their own pantheon of deities, and live entirely in harmony with their natural environment. They embrace using magic in nearly everything, and craft special items which harness the power of nature, plants, animals, insects and birds. There are also a variety of prehistoric animals which live throughout their wilderness homeland, as well as numerous kinds of insects, birds, fish and amphibians. The region also nurtures several diseases, which while occasionally challenging to the native peoples, are especially dangerous to outsiders and foreigners.

... Have I ever mentioned on this forum this thing called Talislana: The Savage Lands? I know I don't talk about it very much...  LOL. (PM's incoming)

Quote from: SHARK;1111434In creating many magical items used by people in their society, embracing different shamanistic and pagan traditions and elements from our own history, I realized that such a people exist within a framework that views magic, spirituality, and the supernatural in very different ways from what is customary in the West of our own real world thinking. Taking that into account for influencing the game, it occured to me that such a people access magic, and magical items, almost *routinely*

I then realized that within the context of such a humanoid culture, where they embraced and cultivated spirituality and magical skills and rituals on a constant basis, that a huge variety of enchanted items were therefore ordinary and normal.

--A War Spear that is blessed to bite enemies with a lion head
--An Herbalist's Basket that stores and refreshes herbs placed within
--A maiden's cosmetics which make her more beautiful and alluring
--Tribal Jewelry for either men or women which benefit senses, or social interactions in some manner
--A Fishing Net which makes the weight of fish carried to be lighter, while also increasing the number of fish caught within the net
--Medicinal Salves that increase healing
--A Horn which stores and maintains a large weight of berries, fresh and good, while also weighing less.

All of this sounds perfectly cool! Fits the description and the assumptions you set up with the setting.

Quote from: SHARK;1111434As imagined, this kind of dynamic runs counter to much of the magic item assumptions within 5E. The culture has an economy that is based on honour, bartering, and general trade needs, and while profit is appreciated and desired, their primitive economic and trade system is just that, a barter system, heavily influenced by spiritual and tribal values, customs, as well as taboos, seasons, and so on, and is not a modern, capitalist or mercantilistic system. I wouldn't even know how to gauge the "price" of such items in their culture, because their culture doesn't use a coin-based economy.

What do you think, my friend? How would such a system and culture be integrated or interpreted within the 5E magical economic system?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

And THIS is where the moccasin hits the game-trail! One of the things we did in Talislanta: The Savage Lands - since the setting is completely pre-civilized, there is a simple bartering system where we established the accepted rarity and bartering value of each object based on its rarity, material, purpose, quality - factored by whatever the situation of the individual(s) were in. And you make bartering rolls modified by quantity and anything else that might impact the given trade. There are *no* monetary values assigned to anything because there is no "money".

So this keeps things loose and dangerous. As a PC you can use Persuasion, Intimidation, or Deception as a checks against one another to gain advantage which can shift round by round, but Bartering ends once someone quits or a successful roll indicates a "Good Trade".

Or you know... you can just crawfish and stab a fool.

Quote from: Giant Octopodes;1111386Ok, a lot to unpack here, so let's go bit by bit:

"5e is boring":  This is subjective, not objective.  You can feel that way, and it's valid for you, I feel differently, which is valid for me.  In and of itself such statements are largely meaningless to discuss, outside of the context of 'what would be better'.  I've already listed how I improve crafting for my campaign, and it works well for my purposes.  What I haven't seen yet is what you would prefer, what you consider to be Good crafting rules, what you're looking for.  To me, that's a lot more interesting than a discussion of why you feel it's bad.

No, it's just boring. :cool:

Quote from: Giant Octopodes"Most magic items are sold for between 10 and 50% of what it costs to craft them":  This is just a blatant lie, or a misunderstanding of the rules.  Now, on 130, it says "For each salable item, the character makes a DC 20 Intelligence (Investigation) check to find buyers ... on a successful check, a buyer is found after a number of days based on the item's rarity ... the subsequent total determines what the buyer offers to pay for the item".  So you take 1-10 days (based on rarity and roll), make a Charisma (Persuasion) check, add a modifier based on the item's rarity which ranges from +10 to -20, and roll on the chart to determine what the buyer offers.  Now, let's for a moment ignore that 135 says "As the DM, you determine the value of an individual magic item based on its rarity.  Suggested values are provided ... ".  We'll also ignore 136 where it says "See chapter 6, 'between adventures', for one way to handle selling magic items" (emphasis mine) and 235 where it says "Rules enable you and your players to have fun at the table.  The rules serve you, not vice versa."  We'll instead treat the chart as the only possible value for magic items and as a straightjacket which must be abided by in all circumstances.  This is wrong, of course, but we'll accept it as your premise, as even then you're way off.

Well, look at you. You actually caught me. Well done. I totally missed that part on page 130 of the DMG, about having to make a Charisma (Persuasion) check, and adding that total to the roll. It was hidden in there, and there's no indication of this rule in the chart (though there should be)......but you have a solid point. Congratulations. You win a cookie.

That rule does have to be added to the discussion. Unfortunately for your argument, it's still not enough. And I'll explain why.

Let's start off by counting how many different magic items there are in the book.

* Common (4 items)
* Uncommon (95 items)
* Rare (113 items)
* Very Rare (75 items)
* Legendary (48 items)
* Sentient Items (4 items, but they're also classified as "Legendary" Items)
* Artifacts (7 items)

Now let's do the numbers.  We have a total of 346 magic items in the 5e DMG. Legendary Items, Sentient Items, and Artifacts cannot be sold. Collectively, they equal 59 magic items. That leaves a remaining 287 magic items that could potentially be sold.

As for my statement:

Quote"Most magic items are sold for between 10 and 50% of what it costs to craft them."

I didn't "lie". I missed the part about the Charisma (Persuasion) skill check. You have a point on that. And I'll even publicly admit that you would be right about this point, if (and only if) you ONLY sell to "shady" buyers. But if you look at the table, "Selling A Magic Item" on page 130 of the 5e DMG, then the implication is that half your buyers are "shady" buyers. The most important point here (regardless of my mistake about the Persuasion checks), is that it is still almost impossible to realistically make a profit from selling magic items. Yes, this is the case...even if we take the Charisma (Persuasion) checks into account. In fact, you will still lose money (on average) when selling an item. Now that you pointed out the Charisma (Persuasion) check, my 11th-level Wizard will have a 49% chance of selling his Frost Brand sword (to "shady" buyers only) for only between 10% to 50% of his creation costs (thus, losing money), although it could be even worse for the item crafter if your DM throws "regular" buyers into the equation. Which he will. So you're still going to realistically lose money (on average), unless you're willing to wait months or years to sell a magic item for profit.

And just remember:

Time is money.

Quote from: Giant OctopodesGiven an average check of 10, a common magic item would have (after 2.5 days of searching, on average) a buyer found which is offering 1/4 the base price, and a shady buyer offering 1/2 the base price, 20% of the time; they would find a buyer offering 1/2 the base price and a shady buyer offering the full base price 40% of the time, they'd find a (non-shady) buyer offering the full base price 10% of the time, and 30% of the time they'd find a shady buyer offering 1/5x the base price.  Now, looking at 129 but again ignoring where it says "You are free to adjust the costs to better suit your campaign" and still treating the rules as a straightjacket, the base cost is the same as the crafting cost for the item.  This is the most important part though- if you don't like what they are offering, under No Circumstances are you compelled to sell to the first buyer(s) which come along!  No part of those rules prevent you from saying 'eh no thanks' and just searching for another buyer!  It may take on average 8-10 days to find someone offering 1.5x the base price, but no part of the rules prevents you from spending that time to do so, which means your assertion that the majority of the time they are selling for between 10% and 1/2 what it costs to make is both factually wrong for common magic items and check results, and also relies on the crafter literally selling to the first person who comes along, regardless of the profitability of doing so.  If they do, that's on them, not on the rules, because the rules do not compel that result.

Now sure, the average result shifts with rarity, but it also shifts with your charisma check, and since you need to be 11th level to make very rare magic items, it's disingenuous to pretend that they would still have an average charisma (persuasion) check result of 10 if crafting magic items is their passion.  More importantly, as you can keep looking for buyers until you find one, there is nothing which prevents you from making 40 checks and spending 220 days looking for that elusive 1.5x base price buyer, if you need to do so, after crafting an item for 55 years.  As such at no rarity value is your assertion true, even given straightjacket rules and fixed values, which is again specifically not the intent of the rules as written.

I never said that rules are a "straightjacket". There actually are games that are at least adequately modular, to the point of allowing a DM to change things without destroying the underlying structure. AD&D is an example of one of these modular games, but 5e is not. People miss this, because of the vague writing and poor organization of the 5e books. 5e is just a poorly written and poorly organized game. The editors were asleep on this one.

And no, you don't have to sell your magic item to the first buyer.....but if my 11th-level Cleric only has a 6% chance (on average) of convincing a buyer to pay him enough to (slightly) profit from the Frost Brand sword that he spent five-and-a-half years of his precious life crafting, then that means that the rules are completely borked.

Quote from: Giant Octopodes"There is nothing in the DMG which says you'll pay several times the listed price if it's deliberately commissioned": If you're talking about players commissioning NPC magic items, sure there is.  Creating magic items requires daily spellcasting.  As detailed in Spellcasting Services in the PHB, even level 1-2 spells might cost between 10-50 GP for one time spellcasting.  No established rate exists, but the higher the level of the spell, the more expensive it is.  As such a savvy businessman NPC would be running you daily costs for spellcasting, plus material costs, plus lifestyle expenses, all within the confines of the rules as written, which could be 100GP+ very easily just for an uncommon magic item.  Given that they're making progress at 25GP daily rates, this means you'd be paying 4x+ the listed cost.

Thank you for admitting that no established rate exists.

And guess what? Even if there was an established rate (which there isn't), it isn't added into the information on selling magic items on page 130. There's NOTHING THERE to make such a suggestion. You're reaching. Good Lord, the writing and organization in these books are absolutely horrible. :mad:

Anyway, that section on page 130 of the 5E DMG doesn't tell you to go to page 159 of the Player's Handbook (for "Spellcasting Services"), and add daily spellcasting prices to the selling price of magic items that cast spells. It's simply not there. In other words, you're making this up. Not only that, but your position would make magic items that do cast spells into something drastically more expensive than items that do not cast spells. And something else you want to take note of:

Not all magic items require daily spellcasting. On page 128-129 in the 5e DMG, under "Crafting A Magic Item":

Quote"The creation of a magic item is a lengthy, expensive task. To start, a character must have a formula that describes the construction of the item. The character must also be a spellcaster with spell slots and must be able to cast any spells that the item can produce. Moreover, the character must meet a level minimum determined by the item's rarity, as shown in the Crafting Magic Items table. For example,a 3rd-level character could create a wand of magic missiles (an uncommon item), as long as the character has spell slots and can cast magic missile. That same character could make a +1 weapon (another uncommon item), no particular spell required."

You do need to be a spellcaster to have the ability to craft magic items, but you don't necessarily have to cast actual spells while crafting a magic item. Sometimes you do, and sometimes you don't. It really depends on whether or not the magic item casts spells at all, like a Trident of Fish Command (cast Dominate Beast 3/day; "Uncommon" Item). A Sword +1 requires no spells, as the crafting ritual is enough.  And there is ZERO INDICATION that a magic item that casts spells is more expensive than a magic item that doesn't cast spells.

Let's see what it says on page 129 of the 5e DMG:

Quote"If a spell will be produced by the item being created, the creator must expend one spell slot of the spell's level for each day of the creation process. The spell's material components must also be at hand throughout the process. If the spell normally consumes those components, they are consumed by the creation process. If the item will be able to produce the spell only once, as with a spell scroll, the components are consumed only once by the process. Otherwise, the components are consumed once each day of the item's creation."

Holy shit; you know what this means? This means that a craftsman is actually less likely to craft a magic item that casts spells.....because doing so forces the caster to use more of his magic resources every single day over a period of weeks, months, years, or decades.....while he is crafting. Wow, that's bad. In fact, that's worse than I thought.

Quote from: Giant OctopodesIf you're talking about the players being commissioned to make magic items, the same applies in reverse.  Ignoring for a moment the option of simply finding a buyer beforehand by randomly searching for one, and only starting the crafting once the buyer is found.  Players interact with non-player CHARACTERS, not charts.  130 just offers you a chart for putting characters in front of the player.  The base rules indicate that the creation of magic items are rare, as magic items themselves are rare, and a spellcaster offering services is rare, with no established rates in place but rather individually negotiated.  As the player would be both a spellcaster offering their services AND one of the rare crafters of magic items, it is not just expected but is specifically and explicitly spelled out in the rules that they would be individually negotiating their rate of pay with the person commissioning the creation of the item, and at that point the rate of pay and thus final amount paid for the item creation would be between them and the DM, as it is intended to be.

"Handwavium is not allowed in a rules discussion":  That's a tall ask, when the rules specifically and explicitly state, multiple times and in multiple places, that the intent of the rules is to serve as a raw baseline from which the DM adjudicates whatever works for their table and actually creates the most fun.  If you're indicating the baseline does not create fun, given that context, how can you be surprised when folks point out that it's specifically meant to be adjusted if it's not creating fun?

Oh, God....don't play that game. If you insist on that, then I'll restate it:

"Handwavium is not allowed in a discussion of GAME MECHANICS."

There. PROBLEM SOLVED. Not that it matters, because "Rule Zero" is NOT a game mechanic; it's a guideline that can be applied to any game out there (even if we call it a "rule"). What we're really discussing here is how the game mechanics work. Not all rules use game mechanics; "Rule Zero" certainly doesn't. It's a cop-out answer anyway, because you're indirectly admitting that the existing game mechanics are dog shit.

Quote from: Giant Octopodes"Here's an adjusted chart":  Your adjusted chart assumes a Charisma (Persuasion) Check result of zero.  That's physically impossible to obtain, and given that they must be level 11 to craft the item you're using as an example, if crafting magic items and then finding random buyers to purchase them is their profession, it's not unfair to expect them to be proficient in that check.  Even given zero other bonuses, so given average charisma and no help with it (which would be odd for someone who can craft magic items, since if they need to they can just craft charisma enhancing items, but again, we'll roll worst case for your benefit) that's an average check result of 14.  The proper chart is instead:

d100 roll with average check ___ Buyer(s) lowball you with...
26 or lower __________________ 10% of base price
27-46 ______________________  50% of base price
47-96 ______________________  100% of base price
97-100 _____________________ 150% of base price

And again, that's after d10 (average 5.5 days) of searching.

You made mistakes in your chart. Here are the correct calculations for your argument:

Quoted100 roll with average check ___ Buyer(s) lowball you with...
26 or lower __________________ 10% of base price
27-46 ______________________  25% of base price (normal buyers)/50% of base price (for a "shady" buyer)
47-86 ______________________  50% of base price (normal buyers)/100% of base price (for a "shady" buyer)
87-96 _______________________100% of base price
97 or higher___________________150% of base price (for a "shady" buyer)

So taking your argument to its logical conclusion, that gives you a 4% chance (on average) of persuading a customer to pay you enough money to make a profit. :rolleyes:

Of course, the real average check result is lower than 14. As an example, if my 11th-level Wizard sells a Frost Brand sword ("Very Rare" item).....he will probably have no Charisma bonus or Proficiency bonus when making a Charisma (Persuasion) check. It's not a class skill for him, so he won't have it. On a d20 roll, he'll roll a what....10.5, on average? Let's round up to 11, so you won't feel like I'm casually dismissing your argument. He has no Proficiency bonus and no Charisma bonus. The proper chart for the 11th-level Wizard with a 10 Charisma:

Quoted100 roll with average check ___ Buyer(s) lowball you with...
29 or lower __________________ 10% of base price
30-49 ______________________  25% of base price (normal buyers)/50% of base price (for a "shady" buyer)
50-89 ______________________  50% of base price (normal buyers)/100% of base price (for a "shady" buyer)
90-99 _______________________100% of base price
00___________________________150% of base price (for a "shady" buyer)

So the 11th-level Wizard really has a 1% chance (on average) of persuading a "shady" customer to pay him enough money for a Frost Brand sword to make a profit. Not a large profit, just any profit. That's awful.

But let's grab a couple other examples, because I want to be FAIR. Let's take an 11th-level Cleric with a 13 Charisma who chooses to take Charisma (Persuasion) as a skill. He has a +4 Proficiency Bonus and +1 Charisma bonus (total of +5). Here's a chart for an 11th-level Cleric with a 13 Charisma, assuming an average roll of 11 on the d20:

Quoted100 roll with average check ___ Buyer(s) lowball you with...
24 or lower __________________ 10% of base price
25-44 ______________________  25% of base price (normal buyers)/50% of base price (for a "shady" buyer)
45-84 ______________________  50% of base price (normal buyers)/100% of base price (for a "shady" buyer)
85-94 _______________________100% of base price
95-00________________________150% of base price (for a "shady" buyer)

So the 11th-level Cleric really has a 6% chance (on average) of persuading a "shady" customer to pay him enough money for a Frost Brand sword to make a profit. Not a large profit, but a profit.

Now how about an 11th-level Sorcerer with a 17 Charisma, who takes the Charisma (Persuasion) skill? Mister Sorcerer has a +4 Proficiency Bonus and +3 Charisma bonus (total of +7). Here's a chart for an 11th-level Sorcerer with a 17 Charisma, assuming an average roll of 11 on the d20:

Quoted100 roll with average check ___ Buyer(s) lowball you with...
22 or lower __________________ 10% of base price
23-42 ______________________  25% of base price/50% of base price (for a "shady" buyer)
43-82 ______________________  50% of base price/100% of base price (for a "shady" buyer)
83-92 _______________________100% of base price
93-00________________________150% of base price (for a "shady" buyer)

So the 11th-level Sorcerer really has an 8% chance (on average) of persuading a "shady" customer to pay him enough money for a Frost Brand sword to make a profit.

This doesn't look too hopeful, does it?

Additionally, you will not be crafting Charisma-enhancing items, because they do not exist in a meaningful way. These are the only magic items that amp your ability scores:

* Amulet of Health (19 Constitution, "Rare" Item)
* Gauntlet of Ogre Power (19 Strength, "Uncommon" Item)
* Headband of Intellect (19 Intelligence, "Uncommon)

There are no equivalents for Wisdom, Charisma, and Dexterity. Finding this out surprised me. So what can increase Charisma?

* The Tome of Leadership and Influence ("Very Rare" item), when read, permanently boosts Charisma and maximum Charisma by 2.
* The Ioun Stone [Leadership, ("Very Rare" item)] boosts your Charisma by 2, to a maximum of 20, while it orbits your head.
* The Star card [from the Deck of Many Things, ("Legendary" item)] can boost your Charisma by 2, to a maximum of 24.

I am unaware of any other items that affect your Charisma, so this merchant won't be amping up his Charisma any time soon. It just won't happen.

Granted, I'll admit that I missed the part about needing to make a Charisma (Persuasion) check when selling an item. But let's just remember that only five out of the twelve classes in the Player's Handbook even have Persuasion as a potential class skill, and even if you have that skill on your list....there is no guarantee that you'll choose it. The classes that have Persuasion on their (limited) skill lists:

* Bard (can have any three skills)
* Cleric (choose two from History, Insight, Medicine, Persuasion, and Religion)
* Paladin (choose two from Athletics, Insight, Intimidation, Medicine, Persuasion, and Religion)
* Rogue (choose four from Acrobatics, Athletics, Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Investigation, Perception, Performance, Persuasion, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth)
* Sorcerer (choose two from Arcana, Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Persuasion, and Religion)

The rest of the classes don't even have Persuasion on their skill lists.

So we can logically come to the conclusion that most characters that craft a magic item will not have a proficiency bonus to their Charisma (Persuasion) checks.

Quote from: Giant Octopodes"Potential buyers know how much it costs you to craft a magic item":  A Baseless assertion completely unfounded by the rules.  Rather, after X amount of time, you find a random guy who is like "sure, I'll buy the wares you are hawking, here's how much I'll offer", and the amount offered is indeed derived on the backend from the "base value" of the item, but that is not to say that the NPC actually knows such a thing, it's just how the book determines their offer.  This is again based on selling found magic items, and is largely a function of 1) most people aren't that wealthy, so what they can afford to offer is constrained, and 2) most wealthy people don't actually need the magic items in question.  Finding a buyer for such an expensive, and rare item, by randomly searching, is intentionally a difficult and time consuming process.

Oh, it's well-founded. At least, now it is. You know why? The reason why I (justifiably) come to this conclusion is because the charts have potential buyers make you financial offers based upon your creation costs. And your creation costs are identical to the base price under "Salable Magic Items" on page 130 of the DMG. See? There it is. It's just pure logic.

That means that the implication is that potential buyers know much it costs you to craft an item. Your buyers know this. This part isn't even in question. Nobody is offering you 5,000 gp for an item with a creation cost of 500 gp. Well, the only way that happens is if a potential customer knows what your creation costs truly are. Right? Like I said, this is just pure logic. It's not even an argument.

Quote from: Giant OctopodesThe fact that it may take a year to find someone willing to pay more than it costs to craft an item is NOT an indication that they know the cost to craft the item, but rather is indicative of an unfavorable market wherein they're just not worth as much to the average person as they are to an adventurer.  Why the hell would a merchant noble who will never enter battle shell out 50k+ for a sword they're intending to hang on their wall?  This is why, indeed, under these rules, your presupposed method of crafting an item, THEN running out into the world at large and trying to find someone to buy the random thing you made, is not a wise one, and is not excessively profitable under the rules as written.

Of course it's not excessively profitable. The rules are totally borked.

Quote from: S'mon;1111356Yes, for actually running a business making & selling magic items, you use the running-a-business rules.

As many people have tried to explain to Sacrificial Lamb, you CAN use those rules. But I don't think they're very profitable - daily expenses of 25GP, so 750GP per 30 day month, and 10% chance if you work at it every day of owing half that. If the profits are listed as overall, then the average profit off of that table would be 3.5 GP per 30 days.

It does seem more likely to use those rules than combining crafting and selling, as Sacrificial Lamb insists (with no option to turn down unsatisfactory offers and look for another buyer). I'd like the business rules better if they explicitly adjusted for the daily expenses and the character's skills/class/level/background. All of those downtime rules would have been better as a range of options with explicit parameters.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;1111526I didn't "lie". I missed the part about the Charisma (Persuasion) skill check. You have a point on that. And I'll even publicly admit that you would be right about this point, if (and only if) you ONLY sell to "shady" buyers.

Which may or may not mean anything; that's up to the DM.

QuoteAD&D is an example of one of these modular games, but 5e is not.

You are wrong.

QuoteAnd no, you don't have to sell your magic item to the first buyer.....but if my 11th-level Cleric only has a 6% chance (on average) of convincing a buyer to pay him enough to (slightly) profit from the Frost Brand sword that he spent five-and-a-half years of his precious life crafting, then that means that the rules are completely borked.

Only that chance of finding such a buyer in a 10 day search (and that could be helped by engaging a higher charisma character, ideally with expertise in Persuasion and maybe a Rogue with Reliable Talent - unlikely for a character to do that naturally, but not impossible). Repeated searches will eventually find such a buyer.

QuoteI am unaware of any other items that affect your Charisma, so this merchant won't be amping up his Charisma any time soon. It just won't happen.

Characters based on CHA (paladins, bards, sorcerers, warlocks) routinely bring their charisma up to 20. It's not clear to me whether the single check would be suitable to augment with bardic inspiration or the guidance cantrip (probably not, since it presumably takes place over a period of days), but another character could help to give advantage on the roll.

QuoteGranted, I'll admit that I missed the part about needing to make a Charisma (Persuasion) check when selling an item.

The rules are less than a page, and you've railed on and on about it, so one would have thought you would have read it.

QuoteBut let's just remember that only five out of the twelve classes in the Player's Handbook even have Persuasion as a potential class skill, and even if you have that skill on your list....there is no guarantee that you'll choose it. The classes that have Persuasion on their (limited) skill lists:

* Bard (can have any three skills)
* Cleric (choose two from History, Insight, Medicine, Persuasion, and Religion)
* Paladin (choose two from Athletics, Insight, Intimidation, Medicine, Persuasion, and Religion)
* Rogue (choose four from Acrobatics, Athletics, Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Investigation, Perception, Performance, Persuasion, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth)
* Sorcerer (choose two from Arcana, Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Persuasion, and Religion)

The rest of the classes don't even have Persuasion on their skill lists.

A number of backgrounds in the PHB have Persuasion as a skill, and you can customize your background to change to other skills. Another thing for you to admit failing to know and then deflect to something else.

Quote from: S'monYes, for actually running a business making & selling magic items, you use the running-a-business rules.

Quote from: rawma;1111651As many people have tried to explain to Sacrificial Lamb, you CAN use those rules. But I don't think they're very profitable - daily expenses of 25GP, so 750GP per 30 day month, and 10% chance if you work at it every day of owing half that. If the profits are listed as overall, then the average profit off of that table would be 3.5 GP per 30 days.

It does seem more likely to use those rules than combining crafting and selling, as Sacrificial Lamb insists (with no option to turn down unsatisfactory offers and look for another buyer). I'd like the business rules better if they explicitly adjusted for the daily expenses and the character's skills/class/level/background. All of those downtime rules would have been better as a range of options with explicit parameters.

Have you noticed how much more vague and poorly written and poorly organized the 5e rules are than other editions of D&D? It's impossible to miss it. If you use the "Running A Business" rules for selling magic items, then you're house ruling it. Which is fine, as long as you're honest that you are using house rules.....because those rules don't apply to selling magic items. But this isn't a discussion about "Rule Zero". We're discussing game mechanics. Allegedly. :rolleyes:

I'm reminded of a scene from the movie, "Back to School":

Paxton Whitehead: "Ok; fine. Then let's just say.....they're 'widgets'."
Rodney Dangerfield: "What's a widget?"
Paxton Whitehead: "It's a fictional product. It doesn't matter."

So tell me......are you saying that you'll make the exact same profit from selling cupcakes as you do magic swords? Really? All businesses are the same, all products are the same, and they're all just WIDGETS? Is this the position that you really want to take? Because that argument just creates new forms of stupidity. For the sake of sanity, let's ignore S'mon's suggestion about using the "Running A Business" rules. They don't apply here anyway.

The section in the DMG on page 129, on "Running A Business" is completely separate from the section on "Selling Magic Items". If those two sections were not separate, then the authors of 5e would not have bothered to separate them. This is just logic.

Quote from: Sacrificial LambAD&D is an example of one of these modular games, but 5e is not.

Quote from: rawmaYou are wrong.

I'm "wrong"? :rolleyes: Ok, fine. Strip out bounded accuracy, and then tell me again how amazingly "modular" 5e is. I'd bet a monkey's testicle that you would fail to do that.

Quote from: Sacrificial LambAnd no, you don't have to sell your magic item to the first buyer.....but if my 11th-level Cleric only has a 6% chance (on average) of convincing a buyer to pay him enough to (slightly) profit from the Frost Brand sword that he spent five-and-a-half years of his precious life crafting, then that means that the rules are completely borked.

Quote from: rawmaOnly that chance of finding such a buyer in a 10 day search (and that could be helped by engaging a higher charisma character, ideally with expertise in Persuasion and maybe a Rogue with Reliable Talent - unlikely for a character to do that naturally, but not impossible). Repeated searches will eventually find such a buyer.

Sure. And eventually, the Sun will go supernova and explode.....but that doesn't make it any less idiotic for my 11th-level Cleric to have to wait the next year just to find a "shady" customer who will provide me with a SMALL profit for the item that I spent five-and-a-half years enchanting. And there's no way that an 11th-level Rogue will be making skill checks for most magical craftsmen every time they try to sell a magic item. Let's get real here.

Quote from: rawmaCharacters based on CHA (paladins, bards, sorcerers, warlocks) routinely bring their charisma up to 20. It's not clear to me whether the single check would be suitable to augment with bardic inspiration or the guidance cantrip (probably not, since it presumably takes place over a period of days), but another character could help to give advantage on the roll.

No, they don't. The writers of 5e very deliberately tried to prevent characters from having high ability scores (or high competency). It's called "Bounded Accuracy", remember? Stats are maxed at 20. In all cases, it's prohibitively expensive in time and money to raise Charisma. If you use point buy, then your elf or dwarf or halfling will start off with a 15 Charisma (at most). If it would make you feel better though, then let's make these merchants all human, which will increase their Charisma scores by +1. How about that? So the Cleric will have a 14 Charisma and the Sorcerer will have an 18 Charisma. But that will only improve the numbers by 1% for the Cleric and the Sorcerer. There's simply no guarantee that you'll have a 20 Charisma at 11th-level, and even if you did.....that only improves your percentile rolls by 2% in the charts that I've written.

In other words, your nitpick is both incorrect and pointless....because even if you were right (which you aren't), it doesn't matter. You're dickering over 2%.

Quote from: Sacrificial LambGranted, I'll admit that I missed the part about needing to make a Charisma (Persuasion) check when selling an item.

Quote from: rawmaThe rules are less than a page, and you've railed on and on about it, so one would have thought you would have read it.

Yes, I have read the book. But it's easy to miss this stuff, which is actually part of my argument. The organization in the 5e books is bad, the writing is boring, and the typeface is faint. Did I forget to mention how cancerously horrible the index is? These are not fun books to casually read, and it is equally painful to reference them during play.

Quote from: rawmaA number of backgrounds in the PHB have Persuasion as a skill, and you can customize your background to change to other skills. Another thing for you to admit failing to know and then deflect to something else.

Yes, yes.....I'm aware of the BORING backgrounds. Two of my three examples had crafters with the Charisma (Persuasion) skill anyway. You could have your spellcaster take either the Guild Artisan background or the Noble background. Whoop-de-doo. That doesn't change my argument one bit. There's still no guarantee that someone who crafts and sells a magic item will have either of those backgrounds. There's also no guarantee that someone will choose the Persuasion skill, even if it's on their skill list. Characters have access to very few skills, and need to choose carefully. Not to mention, that every single time you go through the bullshit of searching for a perspective buyer.....you also have to make a successful DC 20 Intelligence (Investigation) check. And guess what? That could greatly slow down the process of finding a buyer. Talk about headaches. And remember that those buyers know your creation costs, and most of them will refuse to pay you a dime in profit for your time and effort. :cool:

The reason why the game mechanics for selling and crafting magic items is so vague and unpleasant...is because the authors of 5e don't want you to sell or craft magic items. They want magic items to be found. But the problem with that, is that you cannot outrun sketchy game mechanics that provide little incentive for either selling or crafting magical gear. What's the INCENTIVE for spending five-and-a-half years crafting a shitty Frost Brand sword? The incentive isn't money, because it will probably take you a year of downtime to make a 50% profit from a "shady" buyer....who is almost as likely to shank you as pay you. The incentive is NOT combat efficiency, because that weapon isn't much more combat efficient than a normal sword. So what's the incentive? If there's little incentive to either sell or craft this stuff, then it is LOGICAL to come to the conclusion that most of these magic items in the DMG would not be found either. :cool:

I think you should let it go, Mr Lamb. The sun will still rise tomorrow.

Quote from: S'mon;1111690I think you should let it go, Mr Lamb. The sun will still rise tomorrow.

I dunno, if we go by word count perhaps he is close to catharsis? :cool: Let the purgation continue!

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;1111688Have you noticed how much more vague and poorly written and poorly organized the 5e rules are than other editions of D&D?

I started with OD&D, so you are wrong again. Again and again you demonstrate that you do not know the rules. You found the magic item selling rules; they cover less than a page and you couldn't bother to read the whole thing or were unable to understand it.

QuoteIf you use the "Running A Business" rules for selling magic items, then you're house ruling it.

Nonsense. If you have a business of making and selling magic items, it's a business. You're the one house ruling (well, actually demonstrating ignorance of the rules and an inability to understand the rules that are pointed out to you).

QuoteI'm "wrong"?

Repeatedly.

QuoteStrip out bounded accuracy, and then tell me again how amazingly "modular" 5e is.

Strip out unbounded accuracy from AD&D and then tell me how modular it is.

QuoteSure. And eventually, the Sun will go supernova and explode.....but that doesn't make it any less idiotic for my 11th-level Cleric to have to wait the next year just to find a "shady" customer who will provide me with a SMALL profit for the item that I spent five-and-a-half years enchanting. And there's no way that an 11th-level Rogue will be making skill checks for most magical craftsmen every time they try to sell a magic item. Let's get real here.

Depends on the crafter, and who they know; why wouldn't you hire a specialist to find a buyer? D&D is mostly built around parties of player characters cooperating to achieve goals. 50% over the crafting cost is not a small profit, in my view.

QuoteThe writers of 5e very deliberately tried to prevent characters from having high ability scores (or high competency). It's called "Bounded Accuracy", remember? Stats are maxed at 20. In all cases, it's prohibitively expensive in time and money to raise Charisma. If you use point buy, then your elf or dwarf or halfling will start off with a 15 Charisma (at most). If it would make you feel better though, then let's make these merchants all human, which will increase their Charisma scores by +1. How about that? So the Cleric will have a 14 Charisma and the Sorcerer will have an 18 Charisma. But that will only improve the numbers by 1% for the Cleric and the Sorcerer. There's simply no guarantee that you'll have a 20 Charisma at 11th-level, and even if you did.....that only improves your percentile rolls by 2% in the charts that I've written.

You are demonstrating your ignorance again; there's a table on page 12 of the PHB explaining racial bonuses for each ability, where for charisma you would find half-elf, lightfoot halfling, dragonborn, tiefling and drow as well as humans. Later supplements add more. Rolling for abilities instead of point buy or standard array could give you an 18 at first level, perfectly within the rules if your game uses that option, which for charisma would become a 20 for a half elf. By 8th level, any character will have two chances to increase their ability scores by 2. Paladins, bards, sorcerers and warlocks are pretty likely to do so.

A small percentage is significant if you're rolling repeatedly; you could use multiple agents to find buyers, so a party of, say, six characters could finish the 5.5 year item in less than a year and maybe find a shady buyer six times as fast, for a combined profit of 25000 GP. A 13th level rogue with expertise in Persuasion and Investigation (14 INT) could make a good living finding buyers for very rare items. If you just said that the rules are insufficient as is, and accepted that the rules actually encourage the DM to do what they want or need for their game, nobody would much dispute you; you are ascribing failures to them that do not exist.

QuoteYes, I have read the book. But it's easy to miss this stuff, which is actually part of my argument.

Stuff that's in several important places (CHA bonuses by race, backgrounds as a source of proficiencies) and/or clearly presented in less than one page that you've written longer posts disputing, and you can't find it? :rolleyes:

Quote from: S'mon;1111690The sun will still rise tomorrow.

The day the sun is most likely to rise, is the day that it won't.

I may have missed something in the long diatribe, but why would anyone other than a moron invest months or years of time creating a magic item for which they don't have a buyer and after they were done, they start looking for a buyer?

It would be like, in the real world, some company spending a year designing and building a highly customized multi-million dollar yacht and when the boat is finally completely finished, then they start out looking for some rich person to buy that one, highly customized yacht. I could be wrong, but I don't think that's how expensive boats get built.

Quote from: Bren;1111824I may have missed something in the long diatribe, but why would anyone other than a moron invest months or years of time creating a magic item for which they don't have a buyer and after they were done, they start looking for a buyer?

It would be like, in the real world, some company spending a year designing and building a highly customized multi-million dollar yacht and when the boat is finally completely finished, then they start out looking for some rich person to buy that one, highly customized yacht. I could be wrong, but I don't think that's how expensive boats get built.

I'll even add to this fustercluck of a thread: why is someone trying to make a profit with a retail business inventory of one (1) item? Selling one thing at a time might work as commission-work for magic items (as others have pointed out), but suppose a person has an inventory of 100 magic items.

Then, every few days, just on pure statistics, you're going to have a buyer willing to give you a 50% return on what you paid for to make the item. You can replace inventory by building more items, or  offering "quick cash" to adventurers not really in position to set up a retail establishment...

Quote from: rawmaI started with OD&D, so you are wrong again. Again and again you demonstrate that you do not know the rules. You found the magic item selling rules; they cover less than a page and you couldn't bother to read the whole thing or were unable to understand it.

Apparently, I seem to understand them now far better than you do. I will, however, admit to two mistakes in this thread. Two. One was about missing the part about consumables being half-price, because that errata was missing from my book. The second was that I also missed the section on Charisma (Persuasion) checks, but that's it. I've been on point about everything else.

There's something glitchy going on here, so I have to post some of this out of order.
 

Quote from: rawmaStrip out unbounded accuracy from AD&D and then tell me how modular it is.

There is no such thing as "Unbounded Accuracy". The term that you describe makes no sense. There is Bounded Accuracy, and then there's the normal way of resolving actions.....that depicts skill levels vacillating between mediocrity to almost ungodly levels of skill. This "Bounded Accuracy" crap is just some new-fangled bullshit, even if it previously existed in games other than D&D.

Anyway, the better term for "Bounded Accuracy" would be "Bounded Mediocrity". Oooh, I like that term. I should use it more often.

Quote from: rawmaDepends on the crafter, and who they know; why wouldn't you hire a specialist to find a buyer? D&D is mostly built around parties of player characters cooperating to achieve goals. 50% over the crafting cost is not a small profit, in my view.

Did you notice that I said:

Quote from: Sacrificial LambAnd there's no way that an 11th-level Rogue will be making skill checks for MOST magical craftsmen every time they try to sell a magic item.

Of course you did. And you know that I'm correct. I used the word "most", and that word is accurate :cool:

Quote from: rawmaYou are demonstrating your ignorance again; there's a table on page 12 of the PHB explaining racial bonuses for each ability, where for charisma you would find half-elf, lightfoot halfling, dragonborn, tiefling and drow as well as humans. Later supplements add more. Rolling for abilities instead of point buy or standard array could give you an 18 at first level, perfectly within the rules if your game uses that option, which for charisma would become a 20 for a half elf. By 8th level, any character will have two chances to increase their ability scores by 2. Paladins, bards, sorcerers and warlocks are pretty likely to do so.

Good Lord, stop it. I'm aware that there are other races with Charisma bonuses, like Half-Elf or Tiefling (both have +2). Yes, one race of Halfling has a Charisma bonus, and another race of Halfling doesn't. Who fucking cares? IT DOESN'T MATTER. Yes, your campaign might roll ability scores...instead of using point buy. Or someone else's campaign might not. But yes, you (personally) might roll a natural 16 or higher for Charisma, and become a Half-Elf Sorcerer. But you might not. You're using your way as the default for most campaigns, which it might or might not be in a post-3e world. And since we can logically assume that most campaigns are largely humanocentric, then we can also assume that the merchant is probably human. But who cares? THIS STILL DOESN'T MATTER. You are dickering over either 1% or 2%, depending upon the situation.

Nothing you're saying here challenges my central points.

Quote from: rawmaA small percentage is significant if you're rolling repeatedly; you could use multiple agents to find buyers, so a party of, say, six characters could finish the 5.5 year item in less than a year and maybe find a shady buyer six times as fast, for a combined profit of 25000 GP. A 13th level rogue with expertise in Persuasion and Investigation (14 INT) could make a good living finding buyers for very rare items. If you just said that the rules are insufficient as is, and accepted that the rules actually encourage the DM to do what they want or need for their game, nobody would much dispute you; you are ascribing failures to them that do not exist.

Why would six 11th-level Wizards spend approximately 11 months in a room magically wanking with each other for 8 hours a day for those 11 months, in order to create a shitty Frost Brand sword......that has very little more combat effectiveness than a Sword +1? Even if they somehow made a meager profit of 4,166 gp each, what's the incentive? Oh, but wait. You have to pay the Rogue too, right? Let's make that 3,571 gp each....because the Rogue demands an equal cut, and there's nothing your Wizards can do about it. :cool:

How is it that you believe that large numbers of high-level characters will come to a consensus for spending almost a year together in a room, so that they can create a magic weapon with very limited combat effectiveness......and that provides them with very limited profit, even if we assume that 6 or 7 different people are successfully making Investigation and Persuasion skill checks?

Seriously, you're delusional. You greatly overestimate the attention span of most people (especially powerful people), unless they're being given incredible incentives to cooperate for long periods of time. Nothing you're describing here is plausible. This is just pure nonsense.

In most cases, MOST spellcasters who sell a magic item that they crafted will not be pairing up with an 11th-level Rogue. Remember that this is a HIGH-LEVEL character, and high-level characters do not grow on trees.

Quote from: Sacrificial LambYes, I have read the book. But it's easy to miss this stuff, which is actually part of my argument.

Quote from: rawmaStuff that's in several important places (CHA bonuses by race, backgrounds as a source of proficiencies) and/or clearly presented in less than one page that you've written longer posts disputing, and you can't find it? :rolleyes:

Two out of the three characters I described had the Charisma (Persuasion) skill. That was reasonable. Stop crying.

And meanwhile, you know that many people use point buy. And even if you roll, you might not roll high. And not every race has a Charisma bonus. But yes, I forgot to put the term "Stout" Halfling, instead of Halfling. That was an editing omission, not a knowledge omission.

We also know that not every person who sells a magic item is going to have a Guild Artisan or Noble background, or even take (or have) either the Investigation skill or the Persuasion skill. At all. You are assuming that all
 (or most) magic craftsman that sell magic items have this:

* 20 Charisma
* the Guild Artisan background
* the Intelligence (Investigation) skill
* virtually unlimited time and patience
* virtually unlimited access to multiple high-level spellcasters to sit with them in a room for months or years
* high-level Rogues at their beck and call

These are not reasonable expectations. :rolleyes:

However, since I want you to stop crying....I will help you make your point by rewriting those tables I created under YOUR TERMS. The only stipulation that I refuse to use will be the high-level Rogue, because it is not realistic or practical for almost every single magical transaction to be facilitated by high-level Rogues. So here we go. I'll rewrite it under your terms, with all merchants involved having the Guild Artisan background. They will all be Human, since most campaigns tend to be at least superficially humanocentric. This will grant them a +1 Charisma bonus. I'll give the Wizard an 11 Charisma, I'll give the Cleric a 14 Charisma, and I'll even throw you a bone....by giving the Sorcerer a 20 Charisma. I'll do this, since we're going to assume that your campaign rolls for ability scores....AND YOU ROLL HIGH. Never mind that this assumption of a high Charisma score on your part essentially proves that you don't feel fully comfortable with Bounded Accuracy (deep down). So let's do it.

These characters are selling a Frost Brand sword ("Very Rare" item). The proper chart for the 11th-level Wizard with an 11 Charisma (+0 Persuasion) and a Guild Artisan background (+4):

d100 roll with average check ___ Buyer(s) lowball you with...
25 or lower __________________ 10% of base price
26-45 ______________________ 25% of base price (normal buyers)/50% of base price (for a "shady" buyer)
46-85 ______________________ 50% of base price (normal buyers)/100% of base price (for a "shady" buyer)
86-95 _______________________100% of base price
96-00________________________150% of base price (for a "shady" buyer)

So the 11th-level Wizard really has a 5% chance (on average) of persuading a "shady" customer (who we hope doesn't rob him) to pay him enough money for a Frost Brand sword to make a profit. Not a large profit, just any profit. That's awful.

Let's take an 11th-level Cleric with a 14 Charisma who has the Charisma (Persuasion) skill. He has a +4 Proficiency Bonus and +2 Charisma bonus (total of +6). Here's a chart for an 11th-level Cleric with a 14 Charisma, assuming an average roll of 11 on the d20:

d100 roll with average check ___ Buyer(s) lowball you with...
23 or lower __________________ 10% of base price
24-43 ______________________ 25% of base price (normal buyers)/50% of base price (for a "shady" buyer)
44-83 ______________________ 50% of base price (normal buyers)/100% of base price (for a "shady" buyer)
84-93 _______________________100% of base price
94-00________________________150% of base price (for a "shady" buyer)

So the 11th-level Cleric really has a 7% chance (on average) of persuading a "shady" customer to pay him enough money for a Frost Brand sword to make a profit. Not a large profit, but a profit.

Now we have an 11th-level Sorcerer with maximum human Charisma. He has a 20 Charisma, and has the Charisma (Persuasion) skill. Mister Charming Sorcerer has a +4 Proficiency Bonus and +5 Charisma bonus (total of +9). Here's a chart for an 11th-level Sorcerer with a 20 Charisma, and a Guild Artisan background.....assuming an average roll of 11 on the d20:

d100 roll with average check ___ Buyer(s) lowball you with...
20 or lower __________________ 10% of base price
21-40 ______________________ 25% of base price (normal buyers)/50% of base price (for a "shady" buyer)
41-80 ______________________ 50% of base price (normal buyers)/100% of base price (for a "shady" buyer)
81-90 _______________________100% of base price
91-00________________________150% of base price (for a "shady" buyer)

So the 11th-level Sorcerer really has an 10% chance (on average) of persuading a "shady" customer to pay him enough money for a Frost Brand sword to make a profit. And that's assuming that a "shady" customer doesn't shank him or rob him. He can't sell it for double, triple, or ten times the creation cost.....and can only get a 50% profit at best....because the customer knows the creation costs, and will not compromise.

This still doesn't look too hopeful, does it?

Oh, and your Sorcerer doesn't have the Intelligence (Investigation) skill, and probably only has average Intelligence. Too bad, right?

Quote from: Sacrificial LambIf you use the "Running A Business" rules for selling magic items, then you're house ruling it.

[quote="rawma'']Nonsense. If you have a business of making and selling magic items, it's a business. You're the one house ruling (well, actually demonstrating ignorance of the rules and an inability to understand the rules that are pointed out to you).[/quote]

Did you notice that you ignored me when I said that if we were to agree with your conclusion about the "Running A Business" section being used for selling magic items, then that essentially means that you're making the same money.....whether you're selling cupcakes or swords +3? Yeah, I noticed that too.

Those rules for "Running a Business" are separate, and used for selling normal swords and selling cupcakes and selling horses and selling normal cloaks....even if it doesn't explicitly say it. Those rules aren't used for selling magic items. There's a separate section for selling magic items in the "Selling Magic items" section. Deal with it. Why would you ever sell magic items, when you could just sell cupcakes instead? Following your argument to its logical conclusion, selling cupcakes is better.....because there's much less financial risk and equal financial gain. Cupcakes are less of a time sink or money sink. Am I right or what? If you want to know the rules for selling magic items, then you go to the section that says, "SELLING MAGIC ITEMS". See how this works? Isn't logic wonderful?

Quote from: Bren;1111824I may have missed something in the long diatribe, but why would anyone other than a moron invest months or years of time creating a magic item for which they don't have a buyer and after they were done, they start looking for a buyer?

It would be like, in the real world, some company spending a year designing and building a highly customized multi-million dollar yacht and when the boat is finally completely finished, then they start out looking for some rich person to buy that one, highly customized yacht. I could be wrong, but I don't think that's how expensive boats get built.

You didn't miss anything. :cool:

But it's even worse than what you're saying, because the vast majority of your potential customers will refuse to pay you a profit, and will deliberately low-ball you in an insulting way....since they know what your creation costs are.

You have a very tiny chance of making a 50% profit from a "shady" buyer, and only a "shady" buyer....which implies a criminal element. So the system creates a weird situation where only criminals are willing to pay you a (small) profit for your time and labor....and nobody else. However, most buyers refuse to pay you a profit at all. Practically speaking, this means that most buyers expect you to give away your labor FOR FREE.

It's extremely messed up.

Meanwhile, if someone is "shady", then that implies that there might be an element of criminality or danger. The game mechanics do not permit a magical craftsman to sell something for double or triple or whatever. The whole system is very carefully crafted to discourage players from constructing anything on their own. The problem with this is when we take the crafting system to its logical conclusions, we see that roughly 75% of these items never get crafted (forget about sold).....due to obscenely long crafting times, possible theft or assault from "shady" buyers, refusal of most buyers to pay you a profit for your time and effort, and more.

Someone telling me that I can use "Rule Zero" for shitty game mechanics is not telling me anything revolutionary, because this philosophy applies to every game created in human history. These are just horrible game mechanics. :cool:

When the hell did a Frost Brand become the example of a shitty magical item?

Back in the day that was a fucking awesome sword to get and now its a sloppy second to a bog standard +1 sword that you would trade to punch a Dwarf in the face.  Even Millennials dont deserve that.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;1111850You didn't miss anything.

Nice of you to confirm that. You, on the other hand....

QuoteBut it's even worse than what you're saying, because the vast majority of your potential customers will refuse to pay you a profit, and will deliberately low-ball you in an insulting way....since they know what your creation costs are.

If they aren't willing to pay a price that gives me a reasonable profit, then I don't spend the time to make them an item.

QuoteIt's extremely messed up.

It may be messed up. But you know what else is messed up? Your assumption that anyone would spend significant time and money making an item on the off chance that a buyer happens by their shop.

The problem is your assumption about what the business model should be for manufacturing magic items for off-the-shelf retail sales. You think that should be a viable, even profitable, occupation for high level magic users. Based on the rules as you have described them, the game designers don't think that manufacturing magic items for off-the-shelf retail sales should be a viable occupation for high level magic users. Personally, I not only don't have a problem with making that type of business model non-viable, I much prefer that it be nonviable.

And rules providing workable microeconomic models for magic item manufacturing and retail sales falls somewhere well below my desire to have rules for viable dungeon ventilation systems or predator/prey ecosystems.

Here's a revised version I came up with in about 15 minutes, with costs & times I like better.

Magic Item Crafting
Rarity Minimum Level Time Cost
Common     4           2 days       200gp
Uncommon 8           7 days    1,000gp
Rare             12      31 days    5,000gp
Very Rare    16      92 days   25,000gp
Legendary   20   366 days  125,000gp

I didn't address making commissioned works as a business; as discussed above that is best done using the business rules.