Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;1111132I do deal with it, by not playing 5e. But I am critiquing it, because very few people are examining how the system actually works. This also isn't merely a matter of game mechanics, but rather.....it's also about cause and effect, and incentive-based actions.

Yes I had some experience designing rules that reflect cause and effect

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;1111132There is no way on Earth that you will ever convince me that five 17th-level Wizards will find consensus and join forces, in order to spend the next 11 years crafting a vial of Sovereign Glue in someone's basement.

What I am saying that 5e describes a setting where it does indeed take 11 years to craft sovereign glue. The implication of that is of course your decision. For you it means that it never gets made. For other well they don't give a shit. For other still they are prefectly fine with this as it reflect that PC crafting magic items should be rare and exceedingly difficult.

My personal opinion are as follows, I would alter the 5e magic items pricing and crafting because it doesn't reflect how I think of magic items within my Majestic Wilderlands. This type of rules I view as a implied setting detail, a suggestion to be altered sometime radically to suit one's campaign.

Second, if I were to use this method of crafting magic items 'as is' The chance that a cabal of 17th level Wizards spent their time making a vial of sovereign glue is virtually nill. But virtually nil is not zero and in a millennia of history it is plausible a few vials would have been made for various reasons that seem good at the time. Keep in mind that the implied setting of D&D 5e levels are not like classic editions. Instead they are 1/2 or 2/3rd of a classic level in terms of characters having them. So an organization that has a number of 17th+ wizards is plausible.

Again you are thinking decades, I am thinking millenia of behavior. You can't tell me that over a 1,000 years that somebody would have not come up with a urgent use for sovereign glue thus have it made.

Your point is like people arguing the effects of magic on a culture. Sure some systems of magic would lead some post-scarcity magical society in time. It quite easy to justify why that isn't so by saying the campaign in the past before people worked all that out.

The same with sovereign glue or any other magic items where their usefulness are not justified by the cost. As part of the wizarding world daily life, sovereign glue would not be made. However over a 1,000 years sure it would have been made a few time.

Finally you are just considering what people craft. There are other sources of magic items in the fantasy genres. Perhaps most instances of Sovereign Glue are divinely made use as part of a god's project to imprison a pantheon's enemy. D&D 5e is understandably silent on this. However it does fit many hobbyists view that magic items are rare and special and difficult to be made by PCs.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;1111132Isn't that just basic logic? It simply won't happen. Arguing in favor of this happening is like Gretchen from "Mean Girls" trying to make "fetch" happen. But it won't happen. It won't ever happen. There's no incentive for any sentient being to do this.

Given a 1,000 years people will try anything that they are capable of and have the means to do.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;1111132Well, not much. Practically speaking, most of the items in the DMG don't get crafted at all.....even with multiple people joining forces.....because doing so just takes far too long, and isn't profitable. Meanwhile, most of the items are too weak and boring to spend months, years, or decades dithering with. Not to mention, that the higher level you need to be to craft these items.....the less likely that you'll have a consensus of people willing to craft what you want to craft.

So you admit it a non-zero chance now multiply that by an arbitrary number of years and guess what? Out pops the time when somebody for some reason decided that making Sovereign Glue was worth it.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;1111132See, this part you acknowledge and understand. These rules are painfully unfun. They're the polar opposite of fun. And they're boring. The real question is.....how much of this stuff is fixable, while having the game system still be 5e? I don't know.

People think systems are delicate little flowers that fall apart when they blow too hard on them. They are not. There are element that are cruical to making a system feel like it does and there are other that are just arbitrary setting details. Magic Item pricing falls in the later category. It is what is because the author of D&D 5e view magic items as special not commonly made by PCs. Which was not the view of the authors of 3rd or 4th edition.

You don't like it then change it, 5e will remain 5e because of it. I did (well partly I haven't completed it yet).

Quote from: Opaopajr;1111022Dear god, how frighteningly true that is... :eek: That, Minecraft, Hearthstone, whole pile of shitty Play-to-Win Castle/Empire Builder guild war games... So much money, life, and time ground into ephemeral virtual trophies and niche bragging rights. :rolleyes:

I spent a month or two building a to-scale ST:TOS Enterprise on Minecraft. I spent I do not know how long recreating Keep on the Borderlands to scale in Minecraft. Sadly lost in a computer crash.

Oh and the Yamato, and the Millinium Falcon and the Pandora from Wreck of the BSM Pandora. :eek:

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;1111132I do deal with it, by not playing 5e. But I am critiquing it, because very few people are examining how the system actually works. This also isn't merely a matter of game mechanics, but rather.....it's also about cause and effect, and incentive-based actions.

So this is all incessant bitching about something you havent even played. Its bitching for bitchings sake. Now you have made it back onto the village idiot waiting list.

Greetings!

Indeed, I agree, Sacrificial Lamb. The 5E Magic Item Creation System, Magic Item Pricing, and the inherent economic assumptions seem unsatisfactory to me as well, as as you detail, are substantially broken and incoherent. However, such is not a problem for myself. I mentioned earlier that I eye-ball most magical items at requiring "X" laundry list of materials, and about three months or less to create. Obviously, potions, scrolls, and a variety of minor items can be crafted far sooner, and are relatively cheap and easy to create. More powerful items can easily take a year or so to create, and require rare and expensive ingredients to forge or craft. I lean towards the AD&D approach, though, so for the rest of the campaign world, I just make whatever is needed. For Players, though, more details can easily be worked out as needed. It isn't like the Players are saying, "No, no. Forget going on all the fantastic quests, traveling to exotic locations, and taking over majestic fortresses stocked with ancient and wondrous treasures! NO. We need to stay here in town for the next 6 months making a half dozen +2 Flame Swords!"

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: estar;1111142Yes I had some experience designing rules that reflect cause and effect

 What I am saying that 5e describes a setting where it does indeed take 11 years to craft sovereign glue. The implication of that is of course your decision. For you it means that it never gets made. For other well they don't give a shit. For other still they are prefectly fine with this as it reflect that PC crafting magic items should be rare and exceedingly difficult.

Correction: It takes nearly 55 years to craft Sovereign Glue. It could only be crafted in 11 years, if five 17th-level casters crafted it....together. And this brings us to two other issues, which is both LEVEL and CONSENSUS. First, you have to somehow find a 17th-level character. Then this 17th-level character has to be motivated enough to create this "Legendary" item. Then he has to have the half-million gold pieces necessary to craft it. Then.....you'd have find four other 17th-level characters. Then....not only would you have to convince them that this weak magic item is worth crafting, but you have to also convince them to devote 11 years of their lives to craft it together, in a room. You'd have to convince all of them to spend 8 hours a day, almost every day.....for 11 years of their lives (in someone's basement).....in order to craft it.

It's not going to work. Remember what I said about incentive? Well, what is the incentive to do this? This isn't like building pyramids or traveling to the Moon. This is a scenario where you're creating weak magic items that you can't even profit from.

Have you seen the magic items in the 5e DMG? They're not powerful or awe-inspiring. They are dull as dirt.

Quote from: estarMy personal opinion are as follows, I would alter the 5e magic items pricing and crafting because it doesn't reflect how I think of magic items within my Majestic Wilderlands. This type of rules I view as a implied setting detail, a suggestion to be altered sometime radically to suit one's campaign.

Second, if I were to use this method of crafting magic items 'as is' The chance that a cabal of 17th level Wizards spent their time making a vial of sovereign glue is virtually nill. But virtually nil is not zero and in a millennia of history it is plausible a few vials would have been made for various reasons that seem good at the time. Keep in mind that the implied setting of D&D 5e levels are not like classic editions. Instead they are 1/2 or 2/3rd of a classic level in terms of characters having them. So an organization that has a number of 17th+ wizards is plausible.

Again you are thinking decades, I am thinking millenia of behavior. You can't tell me that over a 1,000 years that somebody would have not come up with a urgent use for sovereign glue thus have it made.

No, it's nil. It's zero. All kinds of things can happen from either mass slave labor or impulsive behavior. But this? No way. I can't think of one single scenario in which this would happen, when using the 5e magic item crafting rules as they were written. I just don't see it.

I prefer a system where mental gymnastics are unnecessary. :cool:

Quote from: estarYour point is like people arguing the effects of magic on a culture. Sure some systems of magic would lead some post-scarcity magical society in time. It quite easy to justify why that isn't so by saying the campaign in the past before people worked all that out.

The same with sovereign glue or any other magic items where their usefulness are not justified by the cost. As part of the wizarding world daily life, sovereign glue would not be made. However over a 1,000 years sure it would have been made a few time.

Finally you are just considering what people craft. There are other sources of magic items in the fantasy genres. Perhaps most instances of Sovereign Glue are divinely made use as part of a god's project to imprison a pantheon's enemy. D&D 5e is understandably silent on this. However it does fit many hobbyists view that magic items are rare and special and difficult to be made by PCs.

 Given a 1,000 years people will try anything that they are capable of and have the means to do.

So you admit it a non-zero chance now multiply that by an arbitrary number of years and guess what? Out pops the time when somebody for some reason decided that making Sovereign Glue was worth it.



People think systems are delicate little flowers that fall apart when they blow too hard on them. They are not. There are element that are cruical to making a system feel like it does and there are other that are just arbitrary setting details. Magic Item pricing falls in the later category. It is what is because the author of D&D 5e view magic items as special not commonly made by PCs. Which was not the view of the authors of 3rd or 4th edition.

You don't like it then change it, 5e will remain 5e because of it. I did (well partly I haven't completed it yet).

Quote from: OmegaSo this is all incessant bitching about something you havent even played. Its bitching for bitchings sake. Now you have made it back onto the village idiot waiting list.

Whoa, chief. When did I say that I've "never" played 5e? I said that I don't play it, as in:

"I don't play it now, and I don't play it any more.....because it's festering dog shit covered in cat shit."

But I have played 5e. I've also read it, hence this thread. Not that you need to play it, because just reading it exposes how awful it is.

Quote from: SHARKGreetings!

Indeed, I agree, Sacrificial Lamb. The 5E Magic Item Creation System, Magic Item Pricing, and the inherent economic assumptions seem unsatisfactory to me as well, as as you detail, are substantially broken and incoherent. However, such is not a problem for myself. I mentioned earlier that I eye-ball most magical items at requiring "X" laundry list of materials, and about three months or less to create. Obviously, potions, scrolls, and a variety of minor items can be crafted far sooner, and are relatively cheap and easy to create. More powerful items can easily take a year or so to create, and require rare and expensive ingredients to forge or craft. I lean towards the AD&D approach, though, so for the rest of the campaign world, I just make whatever is needed. For Players, though, more details can easily be worked out as needed. It isn't like the Players are saying, "No, no. Forget going on all the fantastic quests, traveling to exotic locations, and taking over majestic fortresses stocked with ancient and wondrous treasures! NO. We need to stay here in town for the next 6 months making a half dozen +2 Flame Swords!"

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I'll eventually break down the AD&D magic item crafting system as well. I'm sure someone will want to strangle me, after I start writing that.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;1111150It's not going to work. Remember what I said about incentive? Well, what is the incentive to do this?

Just as a start, the incentive for creating sovereign glue is that sovereign glue is needed to...

A. ...bind the different deities into pantheons.
B. ...hold the gates of Chaos closed so that the multiverse can exist.
C. ...stick the different planes to their appointed spot so they drift neither too close together nor too far away.


And the glue needs periodic reapplication.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;1111150Correction: It takes nearly 55 years to craft Sovereign Glue. It could only be crafted in 11 years, if five 17th-level casters crafted it....together. And this brings us to two other issues, which is both LEVEL and CONSENSUS. First, you have to somehow find a 17th-level character. Then this 17th-level character has to be motivated enough to create this "Legendary" item. Then he has to have the half-million gold pieces necessary to craft it. Then.....you'd have find four other 17th-level characters. Then....not only would you have to convince them that this weak magic item is worth crafting, but you have to also convince them to devote 11 years of their lives to craft it together, in a room. You'd have to convince all of them to spend 8 hours a day, almost every day.....for 11 years of their lives (in someone's basement).....in order to craft it.

It's not going to work. Remember what I said about incentive? Well, what is the incentive to do this? This isn't like building pyramids or traveling to the Moon. This is a scenario where you're creating weak magic items that you can't even profit from.

Have you seen the magic items in the 5e DMG? They're not powerful or awe-inspiring. They are dull as dirt.



No, it's nil. It's zero. All kinds of things can happen from either mass slave labor or impulsive behavior. But this? No way. I can't think of one single scenario in which this would happen, when using the 5e magic item crafting rules as they were written. I just don't see it.

I prefer a system where mental gymnastics are unnecessary. :cool:





Whoa, chief. When did I say that I've "never" played 5e? I said that I don't play it, as in:

"I don't play it now, and I don't play it any more.....because it's festering dog shit covered in cat shit."

But I have played 5e. I've also read it, hence this thread. Not that you need to play it, because just reading it exposes how awful it is.



I'll eventually break down the AD&D magic item crafting system as well. I'm sure someone will want to strangle me, after I start writing that.

Greetings!

Well, 3E had a more robust, detailed, and comprehensible magic creation system, but a significant problem was that I think many DM's felt that it put *Too Much* of the magical engineering in the hands of the players, and permitted, or in some ways forced, players to become Christmas Tree walking arsenals. Which, while on paper sounds fine, but when extrapolated out, the implications revealed larger campaign issues that many DM's did not like, or were unprepared to fully deal with in an effective and satisfying manner. Further showing a nod to the stronger sense of security with the AD&D system, where while PC's could create stuff, it was heavily supervised and sanctioned at nearly every step by the DM.

I kind of like a loosely-defined creation system, with heavy supervision by the DM. It maintains campaign integrity better, without legions of PC's and NPC Christmas-Tree Arsenals marching across the landscape, all equally equipped with the dozen uber-required items for every slot and contingency.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Bren;1111157Just as a start, the incentive for creating sovereign glue is that sovereign glue is needed to...

A. ...bind the different deities into pantheons.
B. ...hold the gates of Chaos closed so that the multiverse can exist.
C. ...stick the different planes to their appointed spot so they drift neither too close together nor too far away.


And the glue needs periodic reapplication.

That's not in the book. :cool:

You're engaging in mental gymnastics. Please don't do that. It makes kittens cry when people engage in extreme mental gymnastics to justify a crafting system that doesn't make any logical sense. You do realize that this thread isn't just about magical "Elmer's Glue", right? It's about a crafting system that doesn't provide real incentives for the crafter. And without incentives, shit doesn't get made.

And if shit doesn't get made, then we don't have D&D any more......and there is little incentive to adventure.

Quote from: SHARK;1111158Greetings!

Well, 3E had a more robust, detailed, and comprehensible magic creation system, but a significant problem was that I think many DM's felt that it put *Too Much* of the magical engineering in the hands of the players, and permitted, or in some ways forced, players to become Christmas Tree walking arsenals. Which, while on paper sounds fine, but when extrapolated out, the implications revealed larger campaign issues that many DM's did not like, or were unprepared to fully deal with in an effective and satisfying manner. Further showing a nod to the stronger sense of security with the AD&D system, where while PC's could create stuff, it was heavily supervised and sanctioned at nearly every step by the DM.

I kind of like a loosely-defined creation system, with heavy supervision by the DM. It maintains campaign integrity better, without legions of PC's and NPC Christmas-Tree Arsenals marching across the landscape, all equally equipped with the dozen uber-required items for every slot and contingency.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

That's exactly the point, the trivial item creation of 3e snapped the game.

Do that in 5e and the same thing will happen. If you know, for example, that you can just manufacture Gauntlets of Ogre Power or an appropriate IOUN stone without much effort, then you design your character from the get-go to have the stats that will optimize maximally the benefit of such an item. This level of system mastery reward, while fun to some, created a game (3e) where you no longer saw kids playing D&D at GenCon, because the game just required too much effort--I seem to remember a magazine showing pictures of the players, and they all had gray hair.

Quote from: Doom;1111161That's exactly the point, the trivial item creation of 3e snapped the game.

Do that in 5e and the same thing will happen. If you know, for example, that you can just manufacture Gauntlets of Ogre Power or an appropriate IOUN stone without much effort, then you design your character from the get-go to have the stats that will optimize maximally the benefit of such an item. This level of system mastery reward, while fun to some, created a game (3e) where you no longer saw kids playing D&D at GenCon, because the game just required too much effort--I seem to remember a magazine showing pictures of the players, and they all had gray hair.

Greetings!

Excellent points, Doom! I agree, 3E simply put way too much magic engineering power in the hands of Players, which in turn forced the DM to provide the same Christmas Tree effect for all relevant NPC's, and then...yes, quite right. It snapped the game! I certainly don't want to see that happen to 5E, so I'm good with 5E having a stupid system. I am experienced enough I can embrace a modified AD&Desque approach, where the players access is relatively limited--and with constant DM supervision. I think that always worked in AD&D back in the day. I remember we all made shit that we really wanted--but you didn't have a constant Christmas Tree effect starting at level 3, like in 3E. So, Lamb's objections, while accurate to a point, I think are really chasing down jello--it isn't necessary, or even really beneficial--to have an uber-detailed system, ala 3E. In fact, that is actually a huge negative. Like I mentioned, on paper, you think you really *want* that uber-detailed, comprehensible system--but you don't. That's because the problems mushroom only after you embrace it.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

5e works great with a complete ban on PCs making magic items. Or buying them. The designers learned some hard lessons from 3e - don't make powerful item-crafting trivial - and from 4e - don't make items weak & boring to compensate for easy crafting/purchase. If there is a shitty system, IME it's 3e/PF.

The DMG rules work great for the intended effect - PCs go adventuring down dungeons, and are excited to find magic items there.

If anything, IME if there is a problem it is with Uncommon items being so cheap, potentially easy to craft, and often very powerful. I alter the prices, and limit purchase availability to a curated list of Uncommons - eg yes to +1 weapon or goggles of night, no to wand of magic missiles or broom of flying. I tend to treat crafting ability more as a Boon, eg there is a Druidess PC in my E-20 campaign who can manufacture vatloads of Keoghtom's Ointment. Or the Barbarian who learnt the Riddle of Steel and could reforge his ancestors' legendary sword.

Quote from: S'mon;11111645e works great with a complete ban on PCs making magic items. Or buying them. The designers learned some hard lessons from 3e - don't make powerful item-crafting trivial - and from 4e - don't make items weak & boring to compensate for easy crafting/purchase. If there is a shitty system, IME it's 3e/PF.

The DMG rules work great for the intended effect - PCs go adventuring down dungeons, and are excited to find magic items there.

If anything, IME if there is a problem it is with Uncommon items being so cheap, potentially easy to craft, and often very powerful. I alter the prices, and limit purchase availability to a curated list of Uncommons - eg yes to +1 weapon or goggles of night, no to wand of magic missiles or broom of flying. I tend to treat crafting ability more as a Boon, eg there is a Druidess PC in my E-20 campaign who can manufacture vatloads of Keoghtom's Ointment. Or the Barbarian who learnt the Riddle of Steel and could reforge his ancestors' legendary sword.

Greetings!

THE RIDDLE OF STEEL, BROTHER!!!!!

Any truly heroic Barbarian needs to get that! Fucking EPIC!!!!:D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1111168Greetings!

THE RIDDLE OF STEEL, BROTHER!!!!!

Any truly heroic Barbarian needs to get that! Fucking EPIC!!!!:D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yeah, Hakeem Godslayer in my Ghinarian Hills campaign was a pretty SHARKian guy. :cool: I think his career peak (after 132 sessions, 3 years of play) had to be his solo duel with the 25' tall, nearly-unstoppable Super-Titan Kainos Warbringer, the demigod son of Ares, in front of their assembled armies outside the walls of Hara. Kainos was absolutely kicking the crap out of him for most of the fight, his terrible spear constantly striking and stunning Hakeem, kicking him around like a little kitten against the God of War's son. But a bit of luck, epic reserves, and some true grit & he pulled off an outstanding victory and slew Kainos there on the field. There would be many more months of fighting (and hard-won diplomatic victories too), but the day their god-champion fell against a mere mortal Altanian, was the day the evil Empire of Neo-Nerath died in the hearts of the Nerathi.

Quote from: S'mon;11111645e works great with a complete ban on PCs making magic items. Or buying them. The designers learned some hard lessons from 3e - don't make powerful item-crafting trivial - and from 4e - don't make items weak & boring to compensate for easy crafting/purchase. If there is a shitty system, IME it's 3e/PF.

I dont know how you can look at the 5e turd burger and munch down content in the knowledge that it is not a decent system like for example 3e.

Sorry I almost forgot the smiley face.  

:rolleyes:

Quote from: Shasarak;1111172I dont know how you can look at the 5e turd burger and munch down content in the knowledge that it is not a decent system like for example 3e.

Sorry I almost forgot the smiley face.  

:rolleyes:

And as I need more characters