In regards to the late classical period of Japan, and Charlemagne's rule in Europe, can anyone give me any kind of good reference material about their courts?
When were they held? How often? How long? Who is invited? Was "court" held for a few hours each day or did everyone hang around in the throne room all day making small talk? Where do courtiers come from? What were their customs?
Thanks
Is this just for classical Japan and Charlemagne? I don't have specific info on them, but I do have some general info gleaned from various sources.
Court is whatever and whoever the monarch decides to surround themselves with. It travels with the monarch, is essentially the center of government, and is often the only means of advancement. Appointments, honors, duties, and rewards are carried out at court.
Courts often have elaborate ceremonies to establish rank and prestige. Repeated oaths, vows, or chants might be common. Bowing, either at the waist, knee, or face down, is common as well. Incense, gilded screens to block sight of the monarch, candles, paintings or tapestries, rings, scepters, etc all might be objects involved in such ceremonies.
The monarch might open his/her court to petitioners. People come and pay homage to the monarch and ask for aid. Courtiers are more like professional members of court. They're a permanent fixture. These individuals vie for influence over the monarch; struggling with each other for positions of prestige or direct control in the case of a weak or minor monarch.
Members of court may include - chamberlains, chancellors, lawyers, captains, generals, priests, scribes, heralds, viziers, ladies-in-waiting, pages, servants, spies, local aristocracy, bodyguards, champions, children, siblings, etc
I hope this helps. If anything it's a good primer for more specific courts. Most of this is drawn from my studies into late Imperial Rome and the courts of the various Emperors.
I for a medieval court find it's helpful to think of the proto-court, say the Germanic tribal chief in his long-house with his warriors, feasting, giving gifts, assigning places of honour. Then advance and complexify that with accretions as the size of the domain grows and the technology level advances.
Don't have any hard data on the Middle Ages at the moment...
It is still the custom though, in Saudi Arabia for each Prince of a city (There is at least one crown prince in every city or town!) to hold court once-a-week. The Court is open to any citizen or guest who may make a request of the crown, or otherwise make a case against injustice. The ruling of the Prince is fulfilled immediately, and considered law, unless the ruling would fall under the governance of the Sharia, or holy men, in which case the Imam's would make a ruling. Typically Sharia covers Purification, Prayer, Fasting, the Poor Tax, Trade, Inheritance, Marraige, Divorce, Civil Law, Diet, Liquor, Gambling, and Dress Code.
The King is the highest Court of Appeal, and may override a ruling of the Sharia, however in practice very rarely does so.
These streamlined legal proceedings mean that justice (and relief from injustice) is immediate... if for example, a man owes you money, you can get paid in the evening, whereas with a western court, you may have to wait, months, even years, and perhaps indefinitely to get paid.
Non-muslims do not have the same rights as muslims, especially in regard to Sharia, however the Princes honor any agreements they have made, as they adhere to a strict code of honor that is defined in the Q'uran.
The only caveat to making a pleading before a Prince or Royal Court (as a muslim or non-muslim) is to know the location of where the court is currently being conducted. For reasons of security, the Royal Family maintains a continuously nomadic lifestyle.
The only court I'm interested in is the Crimson King's.
-clash
It hasn't been fully translated yet that I'm aware, but De Ceremoniis Aulae Byzantinae is a description of rituals and rites at the Byzantine court in the 10th century. If you read French or Latin, complete versions exist in those languages.
Partial English translation: http://homepage.mac.com/paulstephenson/trans/decer.html
Thanks a lot. I've got some ideas.
Say what?! I mean, you couldn't have picked more radically different time periods and cultures for your two examples, could you?
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;407319Say what?! I mean, you couldn't have picked more radically different time periods and cultures for your two examples, could you?
RPGPundit
In some ways the glory of D&D is that it's likely that these two societies are about two days' walk away from each other.
Pundit, I'd be really interested in your historical/gamemagisterial take on what international relations between pseduo-Charlemagne and pseudo-Tokugawa might play out like.
The various Harn Kingdom articles go into detail about the various courts of the King. Basically western medieval courts revolve around a set of officers performing various logical functions.
From a gaming perspective this is what I use for a simplified version of western European style monarchy.
For example the Chancellor is the head of the King's legal apparatus, the Chamberlain is the head of the King's Household Staff, the Exchequer handles collecting revenues and distributing funds. There could be a Captain of the Royal Guards and so on.
In general access is controlled formally by writs and informally by who you know. Some Kings will decline to appoint a high officer and instead assume the office themselves dealing with subordinates themselves. For example the office of Chancellor was not always filled under the Kings of England.
In general the trend was for the Kings to centralize power under his authority and his officers. After the 10th century the feudal hierarchy was chipped away piece by piece until we being to see government institutions that resemble their modern counterpart. Countries where the kings failed to do this often fragmented notably Germany.
The court of the king has it origins in the loyal followers of the old Germanic tribal kings. The king would generously reward loyal follower with shelter, food, women, and treasure. Walking in this situation you would probably feel like walking into a fraternity party or function or a group of good old boys hanging . There would be a tight knit bond among all those there.
There were would be a few ceremonies at specific times or days based on the culture and religion. (Marriage, coronation, receiving delegations, etc). But pretty much outside of that was a lot of partying in the form of hunting, feasts, and so on. Among all this would be training for war or preparing for war.
As the territories of the tribal kings grew and especially after they started to absorb native roman populations the complexity of what the kings had to deal with grew. The king would appoint loyal followers to deal with these. Procedures and traditions from Rome would be adopted to help them deal with the situations along with their ceremonies (if any).
But for gaming purpose the big four are adjudicating disputes, managing the king's household, collecting and spending revenue, and finally organizing troops. Access is generally controlled through writs which you purchase. Although there are free assemblies at the lowest level where any free person can attend to conduct business. Plus if you personally know somebody then you can often jump over a few levels.
As far as Charlemagne is concerned, his rule was feodal in nature. He was crowned Emperor of the West by the pope, so you'd imagine at least some ecclesiastics amongst his court in Aachen. Also the Paladins, the -actual- Paladins, mind you, were present.
Now, it's useful to point out that Charlemagne was also the initiator of the Carolingian Renaissance, which marks a renewal of literacy, with the initiation of schools, for instance, amongst which the palace school of Alcuin became famous (in France Charlemagne is still known to be the one who came up with the prototype of the school systems we use today). Here, some relevant bits of what I'm talking about:
QuoteEmperor of the West
In 799 the new pope, Leo III , threatened with deposition by the Romans, appealed to Charlemagne. Charlemagne hastened to Rome to support Leo, and on Christmas Day, 800, was crowned emperor by the pope. His coronation legitimized Charlemagne's rule over the former Roman empire in W Europe and finalized the split between the Byzantine and Roman empires. After years of negotiation and war, Charlemagne received recognition from the Byzantine emperor Michael I in 812; in return Charlemagne renounced his claims to Istria, Venice, and Dalmatia, which he had held briefly. The end of Charlemagne's reign was troubled by the raids of Norse and Danes (see Norsemen ), so Charlemagne took vigorous measures for the construction of a fleet, which his successors neglected. His land frontiers he had already protected by the creation of marches. In 813, Charlemagne designated his son Louis I as co-emperor and his successor and crowned him at Aachen .
Achievements of His Reign
In his government Charlemagne continued and systematized the administrative machinery of his predecessors. He permitted conquered peoples to retain their own laws, which he codified when possible, and he issued many capitularies (gathered in the Monumenta Germaniae historica ). A noteworthy achievement was the creation of a system by which he could supervise his administrators in even the most distant lands; his missi dominici were personal representatives with wide powers who regularly inspected their assigned districts. He strove to educate the clergy and exercised more direct control over the appointment of bishops and he acted as arbiter in theological disputes by summoning councils, notably that at Frankfurt (794), where adoptionism was rejected and some of the decrees of the Second Council of Nicaea (see Nicaea, Second Council of ) were condemned. He stimulated foreign trade and entertained friendly relations with England and with Harun ar-Rashid . In 813, Charlemagne designated his son Louis I as co-emperor and his successor and crowned him at Aachen .
Charlemagne's court at Aachen was the center of an intellectual renaissance. The palace school, under the leadership of Alcuin , became famous; numerous schools for children of all classes were also established throughout the empire during Charlemagne's reign. The preservation of classical literature was aided by his initiatives. Prominent figures of the Carolingian renaissance included Paul the Deacon and Einhard .
On a slight tangent there's a book that came out recently, Becoming Charlemagne, which partially deals with court life in Aachen. It's a very light read as far as history books go. It also deals with Empress Irene of the Eastern Roman Empire, and Caliph Harun al-Rashid.
Quote from: flyingmice;407165The only court I'm interested in is the Crimson King's.
-clash
All hail the Crimson King!
Thanks again!
Quote from: Cole;407321In some ways the glory of D&D is that it's likely that these two societies are about two days' walk away from each other.
Touche. Well played, sir.
QuotePundit, I'd be really interested in your historical/gamemagisterial take on what international relations between pseduo-Charlemagne and pseudo-Tokugawa might play out like.
My feeling would be that the Tokugawa-guys would see the Charlemagne guys as a bunch of barbarians. Seriously, the level of formality of the Tokugawa court would be just so much more advanced, that Charlemagne's court would be utterly rowdy in comparison. What's more, my feeling would be that if the two societies were side-by-side, regardless of the various possible religious, racial, or social conflicts that could occur, the Charlemagne-guys knights and rulers might start to emulate, in their own particular cultural fashion, some of the traditions of the Tokugawa court, envying some of their discipline and structure. So you'd end up with frankish knights taking on some pseudo-samurai sensibilities.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;407481What's more, my feeling would be that if the two societies were side-by-side, regardless of the various possible religious, racial, or social conflicts that could occur, the Charlemagne-guys knights and rulers might start to emulate, in their own particular cultural fashion, some of the traditions of the Tokugawa court, envying some of their discipline and structure. So you'd end up with frankish knights taking on some pseudo-samurai sensibilities.
RPGPundit
This has Pendragon written all over it.
Quote from: Cole;407484This has Pendragon written all over it.
Just wait. You just... wait. ;)
Quote from: Cole;407484This has Pendragon written all over it.
Yes, it could.
RPGPundit
It will !
Charlemagne held many of his meetings in the bath. It was very much a communal bath-house style situation. The water of the bath was kept up to his neck.
He did this because he was 6'+ and most courtiers were not as tall, so it kept his petitioners on their toes (literally.) Thus meetings were shortened as they struggled to keep their mouths above water. He was a quite ingenious ruler, foiled only in following the tradition of splitting up ones lands amongst his sons.
Quote from: Ruben;494738It will !
That's quite the necro for a two word answer that added nothing to the thread.
RPGPundit
Quote from: MonkeyWrench;407338On a slight tangent there's a book that came out recently, Becoming Charlemagne, which partially deals with court life in Aachen. It's a very light read as far as history books go.
I'll 2nd this on both counts. A good fast read that should be easy to find via library but also is a good overview of Charlemagne as he was and the period. I enjoyed as a good refresher and it brought some points new to me. It should be useful for your purposes if you're still working on this.
While on the other end of the middle ages, The Autumn of the Middle Ages, or The Waning of the Middle Ages by Johan Huizinga should also be of interest, focusing on French and Burgundian courts of the 14th and 15th centuries. The sources for the book may be of more direct interest but of course harder to find unless there are internet versions. Autumn is IIRC the newer translation, Waning is in the public domain and online for free either at Internet Archive or Project Gutenberg. I found out about it on the Pendragon forums and Stafford etc. recommend it.
There's one really important difference, I feel.
Western courts seem to be a "daily" thing. That is, you go to Avalon and live there or stay with Auntie and join the "court" life which is like a country club. There were political consequences, but I always felt it was more like 90210. Seen the Tudors?
Eastern, especially Japanese courts, were more of a sociopolitical mixer that had stronger ramifications. Courts were held in the winter, when no one could go anywhere anyway. You actually went and stayed with your lord during the three months, and everything was way more formal.
Basically, the difference is you get to go home every night in one case - you stay with the lord in the other.
QuoteQuote:
This has Pendragon written all over it.
-- Yes, it could.
QuoteQuote:
It will !
-- That's quite the necro for a two word answer that added nothing to the thread.
The idea was that the thread could "have Pendragon written all over it". A statement to which a certain Pundit agreed.
Being the author of a yet unpublished Charlemagne game based on Pendragon rules, I thought I would change "it could" into "it will".
Sorry if I wasn't clearer...
Quote from: Ruben;495091The idea was that the thread could "have Pendragon written all over it". A statement to which a certain Pundit agreed.
Being the author of a yet unpublished Charlemagne game based on Pendragon rules, I thought I would change "it could" into "it will".
Sorry if I wasn't clearer...
That's good, now, any additional information? like say, when you'll be published?
RPGPundit
Quoteany additional information? like say, when you'll be published?
Not yet, but as soon as I have such information, you'll be the first to know.
(The Pendragon line is now in the skilful hands of one-man-company Stewart Wieck. so projects may sometimes take a bit longer than one might expect.)
Quote from: Blackhand;495015There's one really important difference, I feel.
Western courts seem to be a "daily" thing. That is, you go to Avalon and live there or stay with Auntie and join the "court" life which is like a country club. There were political consequences, but I always felt it was more like 90210. Seen the Tudors?
Eastern, especially Japanese courts, were more of a sociopolitical mixer that had stronger ramifications. Courts were held in the winter, when no one could go anywhere anyway. You actually went and stayed with your lord during the three months, and everything was way more formal.
Basically, the difference is you get to go home every night in one case - you stay with the lord in the other.
The Japanese seasonal court also adds a lot of intrigue. While at court (basically a hostage against bad behavior by family and armies) a Lord was untouchable without serious political maneuverings, same when he was in his own lands. Travelling back and forth however...see 13 Assassins. :D
Quote from: Ruben;495559Not yet, but as soon as I have such information, you'll be the first to know.
(The Pendragon line is now in the skilful hands of one-man-company Stewart Wieck. so projects may sometimes take a bit longer than one might expect.)
I'll certainly be looking forward to it; I hope it will reach the quality of products like the GPC and the sourcebooks that were privately published (the book of knights and ladies, etc).
RPGPundit