This is a sibling thread to one started by estar.

D&D 4.0 has come out, but it doesn't seem to be selling very well. In fact, there are some of the first copies shipped still sitting on the shelf.

Why? What would have to change from 3.5 to 4.0 to make D&D 4.0 flop?


NOTE: Please, please, please try to keep the debates over whether or not D&D is a good game or not to a minimum...

1. Hasbro decide the sales return on D&D is insufficient to merit continued publishing.

2. Hasbro decide that the rights to D&D may still have value, and so refuse to sell them on (not as unlikely as it sounds actually).

3. D&D therefore goes out of print.

4. Something else is needed, though more likely the industry pretty much dies off at that point and we are left with hobbyists and amateur publishing.

Quote from: James J SkachThis is a sibling thread to one started by estar.

D&D 4.0 has come out, but it doesn't seem to be selling very well. In fact, there are some of the first copies shipped still sitting on the shelf.

Why? What would have to change from 3.5 to 4.0 to make D&D 4.0 flop?


NOTE: Please, please, please try to keep the debates over whether or not D&D is a good game or not to a minimum...

Fundamentally it would have little to do with game or system. My thoughts:

1. Marketing engine goes fundamentally off the rails. Hasbro takes the reigns and does some "toy" marketing and advertising as opposed to RPG marketing.

2. They pull out of mass market.

3. The ADs have aneurysms and approve really bad art.

4. They change the fundamental approach and thus try to change the buying habits of their dedicated customer base;i.e. split the books further, combine the books into one, try to tie it to other product lines.

5. Fundamentally screw up the production process; i.e. utilize POD for a massive run, use a substandard printer, other insane things that would bore readers.

6. Attempt to direct a shift to an entirely different market;i.e. Pokemon: The reckoning, Magic: The Setting. This would leave some of their base behind.

Note: many of the above a plain insane. Some are plausible. I do not believe changes to the system, errata or print errors of a content nature, would have much effect.

Bill

With 4e specifically, tying it to a consumer trend popular when the launch occurred but short lived could do it.  Making D&D more anime driven could also, though it might actually boost sales.

Quote from: James J SkachWhy? What would have to change from 3.5 to 4.0 to make D&D 4.0 flop?

-It's too similar to 3.5

-It's too different from 3.5

-It's more complicated than 3.5

-The visual presentation is unappealing in the eyes of a majority

-It's written by Ron Edwards, Mike Mearls or Raven c.s. McCracken

Quote from: James J SkachWhy? What would have to change from 3.5 to 4.0 to make D&D 4.0 flop?

Not much.

I.e., if 4.0 is as close, rules-wise, to 3.5 as 3.5 was to 3E, that may be enough for it to be a flop. Not in the sense of "millions of copies returned by amazon," but in the sense of Wizards selling D&D off to Mongoose.

My hunch is that 4.0 would need some new gimmick on the order of Feats or AoOs to make it worthwhile--some rule that's as central but which won't be considered a gratuitous addition by the players.

D&D 3.75, a marginal upgrade to the system, was released.  The entire Complete series, Eberron, and several other books were then rereleased with marginal upgrades and small additions.  At the same time, a new line of miniatures was released completely incompatible with the old line that used new stats and lower quality models.

It was written on paper coated with a contact poison.  And I'm not sure even that would manage "first copies shipped still sitting on the shelf" unless somebody accidentally added an extra zero to the end of the print order for the first run.


EDIT: That reminds me of a funny story from a work term job I had (late 80's). A guy in the next cubicle got a call from the print department to come down and pick up his printout. This was a mainframe house and there was a central printing room with little mail boxes where you went down to pick up your printouts from.  Only apparently this printout, which was suppose to be a couple dozen pages, didn't fit in it. He went down and it was, literally, a pallet of printout. He had got the syntax wrong when he typed in the print command.

Hasbro decides that D&D sells well, and miniatures sell well, so redesigning the D&D rules such that you have to use miniatures will lead to a game which sells like hot cakes! Especially if they ban non-miniatures games from sanctioned events! WotC duly obeys, attempts to tackle Games Workshop on GWs' home turf, and loses bad. Hasbro discontinues D&D.

Alternately: Hasbro realises that while D&D turns a profit, it doesn't turn enough of a profit, and it could make more money by discontinuing D&D and reassigning everyone from WotC's roleplaying division into CCGs and board games.

Quote from: WarthurHasbro decides that D&D sells well, and miniatures sell well, so redesigning the D&D rules such that you have to use miniatures will lead to a game which sells like hot cakes!

It probably would.

They looked at the sales figures for In Harm's Way and panicked? :O






Whaddya mean what am I smoking? :O

-clash

Quote from: HinterWeltFundamentally it would have little to do with game or system. My thoughts:

1. Marketing engine goes fundamentally off the rails. Hasbro takes the reigns and does some "toy" marketing and advertising as opposed to RPG marketing.

That would be absolutely brilliant.

RPGPundit

Also, why the fuck are we talking about 4.0 when it has been absolutely confirmed now that there will be NO 4.0 until AT LEAST 2009?

RPGPundit

We're not talking about 4.0.  we're talking about what it would take for D&D to die.

My co-worker who plays D&D /D20 is already having panicky comments and thoughts about a 4th edition of D&D.

 I try to tell him to relax a little.
 He still worries.  He is still rather pissed about the 3.0 to 3.5 switch years ago.


- Ed C.