TheRPGSite

This thread is inspired by Serious Paul's rant, but my thoughts are coming off on a different angle than his, thus this thread.

On the forums I frequent, including this one, I've found conversations about games and gamers that I just don't see happening when I talk to gamers in real life. While we discuss the same subjects, we don't go into the same level of intellectual minutia or post-modern like deconstruction of them. Some of the ideas that are commonly accepted on the internet about gaming are considered almost laughable when talked about in the real world.

So I'm left wondering why this large disconnect that I'm seeing more and more often exists. Is it because people discussing RPGs on the internet are discussing them and not actually playing them?* Is it because the internet is a different and somewhat artificial environment for communication and thus attracts different viewpoints?

Also, does the common structure and style of internet discussions attract or turn off the average gamer? If so, then is the average gamer then misrepresented by polling tools that use the internet?

Just some stuff that has been on my mind lately. What do you think?



* I admit to doing this myself. I find that when I don't have a regular game going on, I post more on forums.

Well, I think it's more about the fact that there are not that many of us who like to engage in such things. It is easier to get enough of us in one spot  on the internet to have a chat on this sort of stuff while in real life we might only know 10 gamers and none of them are intrested.

When Hinterwelt and I gamed we like to dicuss a lot of this sort of stuff, sometimes his wife (Linda) would jump in. That is the only group that I've ever belonged to that had two or more people that got into that sort of stuff.

Quote from: jeff37923Is it because people discussing RPGs on the internet are discussing them and not actually playing them?*

No. Most of these guys are playing or - more often -  running games. There are a few BNG*s, as Kyle calls them, but poll after poll shows the great majority as currently gaming.

QuoteIs it because the internet is a different and somewhat artificial environment for communication and thus attracts different viewpoints?

The gamers on the 'net tend to be more passionate about gaming, to the extent that they waste valuable time in RPG forums when they could be DLing porn or playing WOW. Most gamers are casual gamers.

QuoteAlso, does the common structure and style of internet discussions attract or turn off the average gamer?

There tends to be less give and take on the 'net as opposed to real life conversations. Misunderstandings are more common, and people get upset more easily. Also, specifically in RPG forums, people are concerned with the new and shiny, as they are jaded to a certain extent, more intrigued by the off-the-main-drag stuff. Most gamers will happily tell you what their character did, or a funny story about Joe the Dwarf, but could care less whether armor makes you harder to hit or cuts down damage, or whether the d12 is under-represented in games. The 'net attracts people who actually care about stuff like that.

QuoteIf so, then is the average gamer then misrepresented by polling tools that use the internet?

Of course. Utterly and completely.

-clash

* Bitter Non-Gamers

QuoteOn the forums I frequent, including this one, I've found conversations about games and gamers that I just don't see happening when I talk to gamers in real life.

Really? I find them with somewhat less frequency. Not always with the same polarity. Both of those seem entirely reasonable given this is a meeting place of dozens of people talking about the subject. But these topics still come up (typically not during playing though). For example someone I used to play with but haven't for some time was talking about what he likes about 3e/3.5e D&D and what he misses about AD&D (but why he has no intention on going back). Of course he's so "one game" it hurts sometimes, because he wants what other games would give him. But D&D is really all he's ever known (since highschool, and he's older than me). He knows something is up, he's got the germs of ideas that other people have run with and built games for him. But his base personality is to be....tentative to change. ;)

Quote from: jeff37923If so, then is the average gamer then misrepresented by polling tools that use the internet?

The cross-section is skewed all to hell, of course it is. I know I'm in the minority on boards in that I spend (usually) a lot more time out of the GM seat than in it, for example. That's just the most easily demonstrated wacked demographic.

Another is how many different RPG games we play and have played.

Quote from: jeff37923This thread is inspired by Serious Paul's rant, but my thoughts are coming off on a different angle than his, thus this thread.

On the forums I frequent, including this one, I've found conversations about games and gamers that I just don't see happening when I talk to gamers in real life. While we discuss the same subjects, we don't go into the same level of intellectual minutia or post-modern like deconstruction of them. Some of the ideas that are commonly accepted on the internet about gaming are considered almost laughable when talked about in the real world.

So I'm left wondering why this large disconnect that I'm seeing more and more often exists. Is it because people discussing RPGs on the internet are discussing them and not actually playing them?* Is it because the internet is a different and somewhat artificial environment for communication and thus attracts different viewpoints?

Also, does the common structure and style of internet discussions attract or turn off the average gamer? If so, then is the average gamer then misrepresented by polling tools that use the internet?

Just some stuff that has been on my mind lately. What do you think?



* I admit to doing this myself. I find that when I don't have a regular game going on, I post more on forums.

It may be that the Internet tends to attract game designer types, rather than simply players.   Game designers are going to be interested in the minutia.  There's also the possibility that the Internet tends to attract more intellectual types who for various reasons may be interested in the minutia.   So the minutia, once injected into the discussion, often becomes a bone of contention in some way and so threads spawn and details are announced and denounced and so on.   Perhaps this is what gives a different overall texture to online discussions than you'd find sitting around the gaming table.

Well I think there's a difference between talking about gaming with your buddies and talking about gaming with strangers on the internet. There's less talk with the former because you all know what you all like - so there's a kind of short hand going on. There's not much rancour even if you disagree because you are group of friends.

With online discussions there's all these rhetorical tricks which impedes actual communication, agendas,trolling and yes as Serious Paul points out, egos. But people like a good drama . Everyone is attracted to a trainwreck. Most of the gamers I know don't even read stuff about gaming online, but sometimes I think they should. There's a lot to learn, but you have to wade through a whole lot of nonsense to get to the useful stuff.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RThere's not much rancour even if you disagree because you are group of friends.

There is just a lot less of everything. :)  Including ideas. It's the Country Mouse and the City Mouse all over again.

P.S. I'm not entirely convinced if everyone on this forum was in the same room it would be a lot different. Well maybe Pundit would decide he was back in the Real World and would act accordingly. And I suspect many would find it easier to identify my playfulness and intensity for what it is instead of something else. But the dicussions and disagreements would happen anyway. I even suspect that a lot of the bigger concepts would fail to get through, because they fit easier into the medium of written work.

Quote from: David RThere's a lot to learn, but you have to wade through a whole lot of nonsense to get to the useful stuff.

I couldn't agree more, and not only with this line, but also the remainder of your post. This line, though, is what gets me, and it's why just leaving - the preferred solution of the board administrator - is distasteful to me: there's a lot of great material to be found here. I'm just tired of having to wade through pointless arguments to get there!

Look, Serious Paul's a dick, and no one knows that better than I. But he's right about the degree of bullshit going on, the ego-swinging, the establishment of the geek hierarchy. Now, some people say, "Then change it by contributing!" But let's be real: one man trying to contribute isn't going to change the board, quickly or slowly. When Paul does open threads, they're ignored. [Probably because people think he's a dick. Really, I get that. Sometimes at night, he sneaks in my room and cuts my legs off.]

So ignore Serious Paul [for the moment]. Look just at the active threads here, and tell me how much real exchange of ideas is taking place, and how much is just yelling at each other about our points of view. There is a tremendous intolerance of difference here, and it's not even from the majority of users, but from a vocal and prolific minority, which makes it look like "the whole board," a mistake I made just a couple of days ago.

My solution? I'll come here and get what I can, but when it comes to real work, learning from other GMs and players, exchanging thoughts and ideas with my peers, I'll go elsewhere to do that, and as I see posters here who aren't, you know, just plain dicks, I'll invite them, as well.

RPG Pundit is a douchebag, and I think we all know that. His behavior is tolerated because people like him [and he's an admin]. Paul is like that, too: there's a lot of medium to read through if you're going to get the message. That's fine. I don't mind that the founder of the board is a douchebag: I've founded several boards whose founder was a douchebag. What bothers me is when someone comes along and says, "Hey, could we talk about the issue, and not insult each other?" and that douchebag says, "You should leave if you want rational conversation. If you haven't left, then you want fighting." And no one blinks. Seriously, that's not just bad logic, it's fucked up. Fight like me or leave? Fuck.

But whatever. Honestly, I haven't gotten that much of use from this board anyway, because the voices of the rational, talented people who are here to exchange information are drowned by the masses of volume put out by the people who need to establish their superiority over everyone who disagrees with them. I'll take what I can get here; it's just sad to me that "the biggest non-commercial roleplaying forums" are, essentially, useless to someone who wants to talk about roleplaying, and not get into personal bitchfights.

Quote from: DwightThere is just a lot less of everything. :)  Including ideas. It's the Country Mouse and the City Mouse all over again.

This is very true. Oddly enough, someone recently mentioned how she has recharged her batteries gaming wise by just lurking and absorbing ideas from gaming forums, which she then passed on to her group, starting many interesting conversations.

QuoteP.S. I'm not entirely convinced if everyone on this forum was in the same room it would be a lot different.

Well I was thinking more of friendships than interaction in the Real World. Maybe the internet persona gets in the way of actual communication.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RThis is very true. Oddly enough, someone recently mentioned how she has recharged her batteries gaming wise by just lurking and absorbing ideas from gaming forums, which she then passed on to her group, starting many interesting conversations.

Neat. Where is this forum with these so-called ideas? :D

I kid! Actually, Cold Space and FTL Now were born from a thread on RPGNet between Bailywolf, Shatten (who since dropped off the face of the 'net) and myself. Cold Space was Shatten's idea, FTL Now was mine, and Bailywolf had yet another idea for the future of the setting. Bailywolf, in particular throws brilliant ideas around like a lawn sprinkler.

QuoteWell I was thinking more of friendships than interaction in the Real World. Maybe the internet persona gets in the way of actual communication.

Regards,
David R

I've found this to be very true. Some people who come off as the biggest jerks online are nice as can be in person.

-clash

Quote from: David RThis is very true. Oddly enough, someone recently mentioned how she has recharged her batteries gaming wise by just lurking and absorbing ideas from gaming forums, which she then passed on to her group, starting many interesting conversations.

It is entirely possible that without the insight, and even just basic knowledge of the existance of a number of games, I found via forums I would no longer be playing RPGs. Even if I was it would likely be a much more drab place, even for those that I play with that don't participate online. I'd likely be thrashing about trying to understand and put words to what my gut was telling me. I've come to understand and look at things in very different and useful ways.

Plus I've found everyone I'm playing with right now via internet forums (directly or direct friends of people I've found that way).

It just gets a little mucky** sometimes. Dealing with people usually does. ;)


** Gross understatement. :D

Quote from: EngineThere is a tremendous intolerance of difference here, and it's not even from the majority of users, but from a vocal and prolific minority, which makes it look like "the whole board," a mistake I made just a couple of days ago.

I've made this mistake before too. The best thing to do is ignore those guys and post about the stuff you find interesting. No doubt they will try to stir shit up but pay no attenton to them - they thrive on attention. The irony is Serious Paul and you are exactly the kind of posters who fit in here. The both of you have interesting things to say about games and gamers. Don't make the mistake of taking things to seriously.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: McrowWell, I think it's more about the fact that there are not that many of us who like to engage in such things. It is easier to get enough of us in one spot  on the internet to have a chat on this sort of stuff while in real life we might only know 10 gamers and none of them are intrested.

When Hinterwelt and I gamed we like to dicuss a lot of this sort of stuff, sometimes his wife (Linda) would jump in. That is the only group that I've ever belonged to that had two or more people that got into that sort of stuff.

Strangely enough, I found that most players liked this type of discussion but did not really engage in it with other groups as much. Some folks were more interested than others but it still captured everyone's attention to some degree.

Bill

Quote from: flyingmiceI've found this to be very true. Some people who come off as the biggest jerks online are nice as can be in person.

-clash

Hey now! I just make squirrel games that doesn't make me a jerk!

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltHey now! I just make squirrel games that doesn't make me a jerk!

Bill

Of course I didn't mean you, Bill! That would imply you are nice in person... :D

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceOf course I didn't mean you, Bill! That would imply you are nice in person... :D

-clash

Whew! For minuite there I was worried my asshole persona was not properly coming through IRL. :brood:

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltWhew! For minuite there I was worried my asshole persona was not properly coming through IRL. :brood:

Bill

Hehehe! :D

-clash

Personally, I think it's because people in real life are largely disinterested in such things. I'm happy discussing concrete things that could have a direct impact on my games. Once things start to go too far down the theory path, I quickly lose interest. Perhaps someday when I'm in a nursing home with nothing better to do than create Venn diagrams describing the power structure between GM and players, I'll pay attention to such things, but for now, I'll stick to good, solid advice such as "Pay attention to the players," "Try to say yes," and "Get and utilize player input."

Seanchai

Quote from: David RThere's a lot to learn, but you have to wade through a whole lot of nonsense to get to the useful stuff.

Here's a serious question: Do the slap fests really detract from other conversation, or would we be sitting in an empty forum without them? I'm betting on the latter.

No disrespect intended, but mild curiosity aside, I really don't give a damn what the folks here think about...well, pretty much everything. None of you are in my group. Your opinions, thoughts, etc., don't impact my gaming life.

I own quite a few games. Every once and a while, I'll run across one I don't have, but usually I've already purchased and read (or at least purchased) it and have already reached an informed conclusion about it.

I've been GMing for 25 years now and while I'll definitely read GM advice threads, I don't come across much that I haven't already seen before, already put into practice, or have already read and discarded.

I can't imagine many of the frequent posters are too dissimilar from myself.

So slap fests aside, what are we really going to talk about?

Seanchai

Quote from: EngineWhat bothers me is when someone comes along and says, "Hey, could we talk about the issue, and not insult each other?" and that douchebag says, "You should leave if you want rational conversation. If you haven't left, then you want fighting." And no one blinks. Seriously, that's not just bad logic, it's fucked up. Fight like me or leave? Fuck.

Sometimes boards have political undercurrents and people bring up certain topics not because they're genuinely concerned about them, but for political reasons. Perhaps no one blinked because the instance in question was one of those times...

Seanchai

I don't think it's confined to rpg forums, it's a style of discussion which pops up everywhere online.

I think we've got three things here: instant communication, text, and anonymity.

The instant communication means that like talking face-to-face, you can just mouth off, hit "send" or "submit" and that's it, words gone off to offend or annoy people. Also, the speed of the sending sometimes encourages you to have speed of writing, too - so you often don't really think about what you're saying, and end up saying something offensive or stupid, or which you don't really mean.

Text is different from speech in that with speech, nobody remembers every word you say, they just remember the general thrust of what you're saying, though a few words or sentences may stand out in their minds. So they respond to that general thing you're saying. But with text, they can pick and choose which sentences or even words to reply to. So if you disagree with what they're saying, it's pretty easy and tempting to nitpick it to death.

Anonymity works both ways, for speaker and listener. Because I am anonymous I can feel free to be a prick, and because you are anonymous I can feel free to be a prick to you. Put less nastily, because we don't see faces and hear voices, it's easy to respond to someone not as a person, but just a bunch of words and ideas. People get respect, words and ideas don't.

Put all these things together and it's pretty easy to see how we end up with pretty combative conversations, and debates on rather abstract stuff. We don't have conversations like this with gamers we meet in person because while we don't always have time to think properly of our response, at least we don't nitpick words and sentences, and we don't have the anonymity. So we respond to what the person's saying in general and we speak to the person, not only the words and ideas.

 It's not confined to rpg discussion. I think it was fonkaygarry who had a sig quoting someone flaming someone else on a knitting forum... :confused:

Quote from: SeanchaiHere's a serious question: Do the slap fests really detract from other conversation, or would we be sitting in an empty forum without them?

Well I meant the slap fest and wild detours that happen within a single thread. That's the nonsense I have to wade through. I really do think it's about agendas, egos etc. As for the other conversations, I just ignore them (or watch the drama with mild interest) which was my advice to Engine. I don't have a problem with spin off threads or anything like that. Honestly, like I said it's best not to take things too seriously.

Edit: As far as my experience as to the utility of forum participation, if it was only about the slap fest etc, I doubt this or any other forum would be of much interest to me.

Regards,
David R

Kyle I think has the right of it - I have more than once typed something, hit the button, then gotten the shit flamed out of me.

I have since learned to wait a few than look over what I said to either delete, refine, or post.

Something else I've learned about myself - face-to-face or voice communication I'm really quiet. When text is involved I'm a lot more chatty. I'm involved with a game online, and when I use skype, I'm a lot quieter - I don't try to be as funny, I suggest a lot less, and generally just go with simple things- I search, I hit the monster, etc. With text, I say a lot more. May not be all quality, but I do try :)