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AD&D 1e, Call of Cthulhu, LBB Classic Traveller.

I actually prefer BECMI/RC and ACKS, and Mongoose Traveller, but it's not about my favorite games. It's about what springs to mind when you say "D&D" or "Traveller".

I think these three are entrenched as the archetypal RPGs for their respective genres, not only because they were massively played and talked about from the heyday of the hobby to today, but because of their incredibly pervasive influence. It sometimes feels like every game out there is either an emulation or a reaction to this time-tested trio. It's difficult to look at Vampire: The Masquerade and not think of CoC's introduction of mental-hit-points-like Sanity. Or just about any fantasy RPG's weapon list.

Their biases shaped everything that came after, for good or for ill. The mass adoption, by casual hobbyists, of a D&D ruleset intended for "hardcore" tournament play, may have played a role in the emergence of the now widespread idea that the DM is just as bound by the rules as the other players. In a similar vein, by not supplying hard-coded subsystems for the Name-level (stronghold and domain) endgame (while at the same time providing subsystems for just about everything else) probably also contributed to its disappearance from further editions starting with AD&D 2e.

Discuss.

GURPS...GURPS...and Moar GURPS!

Quote from: The Butcher;637608AD&D 1e, Call of Cthulhu, LBB Classic Traveller.

These are good picks, yes.

I'd disagree with Traveller, there isn't any one far future sci-fi game giant. And I mean Cthulhu is its own genre, which is a subset of horror. It wouldn't be the first thing that springs to mind when I think of 'vampire horror' for example.

When the words "sci-fi rpg" pops up, nothing springs to mind immediately.  Not Traveller nor even Star Wars or Star Trek.

In contrast, when the word "rpg" pops up, D&D immediately springs to mind.


Though somebody who grew up playing video games like Everquest or WoW, may possibly have a different response to the word "rpg" popping up.

I might go with Original D&D, Call of Cthulhu, and Vampire: The Masquerade.

The first is the Black Sabbath of role playing and started it all.

The second elevated RPGs into an art form and might still be the most perfect RPG ever created.

The third seems to brought the "role" back into "role playing game" in a more extroverted way, and infused a new generation of players into the hobby. Although I'm not a fan.

Restricting it to three is probably sliiiightly too reductive, but I'd agree that love it or hate it Vampire deserves recognition both for kicking off an entirely new subgenre of RPGs and, crucially for getting entire new subcultures hooked on RPGs. I meet loads of gamers who started on the WoD games and know some groups where some form of World of Darkness is a more universally loved baseline than D&D - you'll have some people who just don't like D&D but everyone feels able to sit down and enjoy a WoD game, even if it isn't necessarily their favourite.

Playing at the World nicely illustrates how D&D's success came from its ability to bridge the fantasy fandom and the wargaming fandom, so Vampire's ability to bridge subcultures manages to do something important which D&D accomplished but many other games failed to do: provide something that was recognisably an RPG but at the same time appealed to people that the current RPG scene just wasn't catering to.

My own trilogy would be O/AD&D, Call of Cthulhu and Vampire.

I think there are more games that deserve the moniker of classics though. I'm thinking of Traveller yes, of Warhammer FRP 1e, and probably a few others like Cyberpunk 2020, Shadowrun, GURPS probably too, that is, games that have been widely popular at some point or other, are still played today by gamers who don't give much of a shit about the new shiny, and could be played just as well today as they were back in their day.

Quote from: Replicant2;637627I might go with Original D&D, Call of Cthulhu, and Vampire: The Masquerade.

This.

D&D/Call of Cthulhu/Cyberpunk

Quote from: Benoist;637636I think there are more games that deserve the moniker of classics though. I'm thinking of Traveller yes, of Warhammer FRP 1e, and probably a few others like Cyberpunk 2020, Shadowrun, GURPS probably too, that is, games that have been widely popular at some point or other, are still played today by gamers who don't give much of a shit about the new shiny, and could be played just as well today as they were back in their day.

It's decidedly tempting to suggest that Traveller has a better claim to being in the Holy Trinity than CoC: it was the first non-fantasy RPG to really give a compellingly different model of play from either D&D (see: Metamorphosis Alpha, which is basically a dungeon in space) or Brausteins (see: Boot Hill, which is essentially a set of rules for running a Wild West Braustein), and it was HUGE in its time, taking second place to D&D for a while just as Vampire and its kin took second place to D&D in the 1990s. As innovative and cool as CoC was, I don't think it ever quite got THAT big.

So I might propose a trinity of D&D/Traveller/Vampire.

D&D, Call of Cthulhu, and James Bond 007

I'm rather convinced that James Bond was the birth of "modern game design" as reflected in everything from MSH and DC Heroes, WoD's Storyteller System (which itself was mainly a riff on Prince Valiant's system ), all the way to FATE.

A close contender/substitute for James Bond would be WEG's Ghostbusters RPG, which first popularized dice pools and probably did as much as 007 for the advent genre mechanics and rules-lite games.


Vampire would win for popularity, but not in anything close to originality in mechanics. I would almost say it could be nominated for presentation, but even that's basically just a riff on FASA's early 90s games like Earthdawn and Shadowrun.

Quote from: Benoist;637636My own trilogy would be O/AD&D, Call of Cthulhu and Vampire.

I think there are more games that deserve the moniker of classics though. I'm thinking of Traveller yes, of Warhammer FRP 1e, and probably a few others like Cyberpunk 2020, Shadowrun, GURPS probably too, that is, games that have been widely popular at some point or other, are still played today by gamers who don't give much of a shit about the new shiny, and could be played just as well today as they were back in their day.

I was really about to say something similar, but i fell on that i couldn't decide on just three ... I can settle for two, though:
D&D and VtM.
I'm one of those who clearly prefer Vampire over D&D any day, but i can't deny that D&D is The Classic of classics among rpgs.
Warthur delivers(?) a strong case for Traveller, though, so perhaps i'd agree on that.
The other contenders i tried for that place, was Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, GURPS, CoC and WHFRP ....
But writing this now feels like i'm j ....

Hm, I think i'd nominate KULT, TORG, and Paranoia, too .... but i have no idea what the other ones here would think of those choises.

I think this thread is really discussing the seminal works of RPG design.

On that level, D&D clearly has primacy.

Cyberpunk (Black Box) paved the way for Cyberspace, GURPS Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, and all the rest. One can argue whether it's seminal for the industry as a whole, but it was clearly the first cyberpunk game to reach a critical mass.

Quote from: Catelf;637708Hm, I think i'd nominate KULT, TORG, and Paranoia, too .... but i have no idea what the other ones here would think of those choises.

Torg appears as an influence on several games designed by Torg fans, such as Savage Worlds and FantasyCraft. Several RPG designers have cited it as a strong influence, but its specific mechanics are baroque and don't seem to have been adopted anywhere else.

I think: looking at the original list and the comments that follow that one point that is largely true of the original three that is not true, or is less true, of followup ideas is that everything on the OP's list is still being played/sold.

With a powerful caveat: I think one weakness of the OP's list (and followings) is that D&D is, for example, bigger than any single edition, as is Traveller... and while CoC may have many 'editions' it really is just CoC... plus that delta thingy and so forth.


Now, this doesn't obviate the idea that the WoD games might actually have a place in a trinitarian list of foundational games, perhaps in place of CoC, perhaps not but...


As much as I love me some Cyberpunk, its more or less dead outside of a few groups that are still playing with their old books, and even then it was eclipsed by Shadowrun, which has its own problems on the list.

So, as a premise it helps to define what enables a came for inclusion into a 'holy trinity', and of course as the Pundit's rules for the forum explain, any definition that excludes D&D is fundamentally flawed.

History is important, as is widespread appeal. I might include a qualifier regarding being 'formational', but I'm not terribly concerned.

I see D&D for the obvious reasons. It was first, it was biggest, and regardless of what we might think of 4e (or 5e, or any given edition) it has remained a constant in the hobby that almost everyone can agree with.

Traveller may never have had the penetration of D&D (then again, who did? Seriously, if that is a disqualifier we don't have a trinity at all), but it has almost as much history and is, as D&D is, evergreen. I can go buy new Traveller books today if I wished, and like D&D it has spawned numerous editions and copycats.  It is genre defining, in that any other space RPG you care to mention was either inspired by Traveller, or can be described in comparison to Traveller with almost anyone listening grasping your point.  Now, it would be possible to put in Star Wars in place of Traveller, if only on account of the wider popularity of that particular setting and the fact that Star Wars has a long and varied history in the hobby (as D&D or Traveller...), and that is a fine debate to have, but I don't see another space game coming anywhere near those two.  This does suggest a certain 'qualifier' that has not been agreed on, and that is a more setting neutral design. Traveller and D&D both have a library of settings for them, Star Wars is... Star Wars, but we haven't gone so far.

CoC is a problematic choice... for me. On the other hand I don't see putting WoD in its place.  CoC is a latecomer in comparison, and unlike D&D and Traveller, it's actually (as I understand it) built on a system originally used for Runequest (and it does seem that 'cross compatibility of genre' is a breaking point.  Further, I'm not entirely sure that CoC has the market penetration to hold up to challenges from, say the WoD. On the other hand I feel the WoD is both too new and too, well, dead? to qualify. Maybe if the NWoD was more popular? Then again, that brings 4e questions about D&D into play, so it may be a moot point.

I'd agree that the trinity of games should not be representative of the same genre, and that no single edition could be said to be representative, thus the entire line needs to be considered. Beyond that?

AD&D1, CoC, WHFRP 1e.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;637738AD&D1, CoC, WHFRP 1e.

Same here.

I think D&D in all its forms dominated the 80s as far as my awareness of RPGs. While I only played it a little briefly in 1985, it was everywhere.

Sadly, for the other two games, I would have to go with:

RIFTS
Vampire: the Masquerade

Again, throughout the 90s, these two games dominated awareness by being EVERYWHERE... I never played them, mainly  because they were not my cup of tea, when I sit and think of RPGs and which three games pop into my head... These two drown out all the others.

The 2000's were dominated by the d20 craze and the OGL explosion.

For me personally, I would go with Marvel Superheroes (FASERIP!), MERP, and GURPS. That's because these were the ones I owned and played the most of.

Quote from: The Butcher;637608AD&D 1e, Call of Cthulhu, LBB Classic Traveller.

.

Agreed.

If I was looking at a second set for 'the next generation' I would go

WoD (though really Vampire), GURPS, Star Wars

I woudl love to put some FGU stuff in there, Flashing Blades, Daredevils, Bushido, as I think their design ideas have longevity but realistically ... too small.

then a Gen Y set with

SW, there should be an RPG with Narative elements as its a new design idea,

how's about Chivalry and Sorcery, Rolemaster, and Mythus?

Almost everyone agrees on D&D and CoC.

#3 is the real kicker here.

Quote from: The Butcher;637759Almost everyone agrees on D&D and CoC.

#3 is the real kicker here.

I honestly don't think there's any game that could come close to those two.

I'm leaning towards D&D, Champions and Vampire.

D&D for being the granddaddy of roleplaying games, Champions for being the strongest contender of point buy and Vampire for showing how games can be about exploring characters instead of locales.

Heh.

I've been playing RPGs since about... 1990-91, and had never even heard of Traveller until last year.

So the first two I agree with, but I would replace Traveller with GURPS or Cyberpunk. I've never even laid eyes on a Traveller book in real life to this day.

FASA's Star Trek game is what I think of from back in the day, because that was everywhere. Maybe D6 Star Wars. Vampire was pretty heavy in these parts too.

DnD and CoC were pretty universal, but everything else seems to be more location oriented.

Well, I certainly think that RuneQuest should be a damn close runner up to (A)D&D for the fantasy genre, and more than likely a nose ahead when it comes the Sword & Sorcery and/or gritty sub-genre of general fantasy.  However, I guess even more broadly, which also incorporates Call of Cthulhu, is the Basic Role-Playing system by Chaosium that can be considered an iconic game system in the hobby.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/68/Basic_Roleplaying.gif)

Quote from: Crabbyapples;637788and Vampire for showing how games can be about exploring characters instead of locales.

Yeah, because no game did that before

I actually like the OP's trinity, even though I don't know anything about Traveller. Fantasy, science fiction, horror - each game really "broke in" its respective genre, and they've all continued to endure through the past 30 years.

The World of Darkness stuff was very 90's. Times have changed since then, FOR ME PERSONALLY (ymmv) I don't think it's too relevant now.

I know Mongoose tried to sell Traveller as a generic SF game, one that could be used for any SF setting. I wondered if anyone had a comment on that. Could Traveller really be used (successfully) to play in say the Star Wars or Star Trek universes?

I would also like to expand the "trilogy" concept somewhat - that the games had a default adventure space - a mapped area that provided a closed system in which the players were free to make whatever choices they liked. In D&D, it was the dungeon. In Call of Cthulhu, it was the haunted house. I don't know about Traveller, like I said. Derelict spacecraft? If we can roll with this, I think it further cements their status as the Holy Trinity. Good post.

Quote from: ningauble;637889I know Mongoose tried to sell Traveller as a generic SF game, one that could be used for any SF setting. I wondered if anyone had a comment on that. Could Traveller really be used (successfully) to play in say the Star Wars or Star Trek universes?

I don't think LBB Classic could do either without some serious work (any more than, say, OD&D could do LotR), but I could be wrong as my Classic-fu is weak. Mongoose can do either out of the box, the chapter on psionics even features a very Jedi-like "psi-warrior" career path.

Still, the spacefaring rules portray a grittier and more dangerous universe than either ST or SW, IMO.

Quote from: ningauble;637889I would also like to expand the "trilogy" concept somewhat - that the games had a default adventure space - a mapped area that provided a closed system in which the players were free to make whatever choices they liked. In D&D, it was the dungeon. In Call of Cthulhu, it was the haunted house. I don't know about Traveller, like I said. Derelict spacecraft? If we can roll with this, I think it further cements their status as the Holy Trinity. Good post.

I think of Traveller's "adventure space" as the subsector map, each world with its secrets and features as well as it markets and industries; economic demands make the PCs (in a classic "free trader" campaign) move from system to system, and as they conduct business they should eventually get imbroiled in local politics, crime, war, religious upheaval, rumors of derelict starships with precious cargoes, or whatever the Ref can throw at them that tickles the players' collective fancy.

Quote from: Drohem;637873However, I guess even more broadly, which also incorporates Call of Cthulhu, is the Basic Role-Playing system by Chaosium that can be considered an iconic game system in the hobby.

In my experience, it stands out as the first really "systematic" rules set. Before Hero System (and GURPS and D20 System and so on), it provided a more structured -- yet very flexible -- framework than earlier sets, a general-purpose "world machine."

It also brought to the fore the packaging of RPGs with more explicit settings, from Glorantha to licenced renditions of works of Lovecraft, Moorcock, Niven, the Pinis, and the Thieves' World anthology series (a Superworld campaign in turn inspiring the Wild Cards series), to the Arthurian cycle and beyond.

The cults in RQ seem like the prototype for the prominent clans and other factions in many later games. Rune-priests and -lords might be the original "prestige classes."

All considered, it strikes me as having been tremendously influential (although some minds no doubt were thinking independently along similar lines).

If this "The Holy Trinity of RPGs" does not include Traveller, then it isn't that Holy of a Trinity. Traveller has had a lot of influence on RPGs. Likewise CoC has had a lot of influence as well and D&D goes without saying. Excluding Vampire is to exclude a lot of impact on RPGs as well.

How about instead of a Holy Trinity, it be a Quorum of Giants?

The only thing that I can think of that would exclude Vampire is the same thing that I think excludes Star Wars, in that they are stuck with only a single general setting. All Star Wars RPGs have ridden the popularity of the Star Wars universe, and in the case of d6 Star Wars, helped to initially popularize the Star Wars universe as it became more multimedia. Vampire rode in on the tide of Anne Rice's popular works and is still riding the wave of supernatural romance and supernatural action popularity that is current. In the case of the movie Underworld,  IIRC both Anne Rice and White Wolf were able to sue Sony  Pictures for a share of the profits since the characters and situations in that move were so close to their own works in gaming and books.

Quote from: David Johansen;637757how's about Chivalry and Sorcery, Rolemaster, and Mythus?

That's a pretty consistent list with a proeminent theme that tells me at least a little bit about your gaming preferences. ;)

But none of these would be my first choice for the "Holy Trinity" of the hobby.

Quote from: jeff37923;637899Excluding Vampire is to exclude a lot of impact on RPGs as well.

True, but other than sleek (for the time) looks, and billing itself as the product of choice for the discerning customer all Apple-like, from a strictly game-design point-of-view, there's not a lot of originality to Vampire. This is one point in which Pundejo and I stand in firm agreement. I just don't hate WW for it.

Quote from: jeff37923;637899How about instead of a Holy Trinity, it be a Quorum of Giants?

Because three is a good number and makes you really think about who deserves a spot.

Quote from: The Butcher;637892I don't think LBB Classic could do either without some serious work (any more than, say, OD&D could do LotR), but I could be wrong as my Classic-fu is weak. Mongoose can do either out of the box, the chapter on psionics even features a very Jedi-like "psi-warrior" career path.

Actually it can.  Psionics are pretty close to the force already.  Indeed in the prequels they start training jedi as infants, by my math that gives a +4 to psionic Strength.  (It's 2d6-1 per term past 18).  A light saber has the range of a broadsword and the penetration and damage of a laser rifle.   Blasters have the stats of similarly sized and functioned projectile weapons but are +1 damage per die and double the ammo capacity.  Ships look about the same except that they get a deflector shields that absorb one hit per power plant rating per turn.  And all fuel hits cause a massive explosion that destroys the ship.

Trek on the other hand takes a few more tweaks.  Jump # becomes maximum warp factor.  A phaser I has the stats of a laser carbine and the weight and handling (stat reqs) of a body pistol.  A phaser II has the stats of a laser rifle and the weight and handling of an autopistol.  The starfleet branches are analogs to various carreers.  I'd require one term in the Scouts followed by terms in marines (security), Navy (Command), Scouts (Science or Medical), If Citizens of the Imperium is available then I'd use Scientist (Science) or Doctor (Medical) instead.

It's the ships that would take some extra effort.  Trek doesn't seem to have Traveller's massive jump fuel requirements.  For existing designs I'd leave things as is and assume that the volume is taken up by the antimater containment system, matter replicator supplies, and  but not have it exhausted by FTL travel.  Ships would recieve a Shields rating equal to their power plant rating.  Each hit taken reduces the rating by one for each damage result inflicted but shields refresh after each combat turn.

How about the "character build" concept? The Fantasy Trip comes to my mind as a pioneer, but Champions/Hero System really built a comprehensive system around it. By contrast, D&D, Clasic Traveller (in a big, big way!), BRP, etc., presumed that characters were "rolled up" more than designed.

Quote from: David Johansen;637911Actually it can.  Psionics are pretty close to the force already.  Indeed in the prequels they start training jedi as infants, by my math that gives a +4 to psionic Strength.  (It's 2d6-1 per term past 18).  A light saber has the range of a broadsword and the penetration and damage of a laser rifle.   Blasters have the stats of similarly sized and functioned projectile weapons but are +1 damage per die and double the ammo capacity.  Ships look about the same except that they get a deflector shields that absorb one hit per power plant rating per turn.  And all fuel hits cause a massive explosion that destroys the ship.

Trek on the other hand takes a few more tweaks.  Jump # becomes maximum warp factor.  A phaser I has the stats of a laser carbine and the weight and handling (stat reqs) of a body pistol.  A phaser II has the stats of a laser rifle and the weight and handling of an autopistol.  The starfleet branches are analogs to various carreers.  I'd require one term in the Scouts followed by terms in marines (security), Navy (Command), Scouts (Science or Medical), If Citizens of the Imperium is available then I'd use Scientist (Science) or Doctor (Medical) instead.

It's the ships that would take some extra effort.  Trek doesn't seem to have Traveller's massive jump fuel requirements.  For existing designs I'd leave things as is and assume that the volume is taken up by the antimater containment system, matter replicator supplies, and  but not have it exhausted by FTL travel.  Ships would recieve a Shields rating equal to their power plant rating.  Each hit taken reduces the rating by one for each damage result inflicted but shields refresh after each combat turn.

Wow. That was awesome! I want run Star Trek Traveller and Star Wars Traveller on the basis of these posts. How would you allow for the greater survivability of ST and SW characters versus the default deadliness of Travller? (E.g. lightsabers blocking blasters, etc.)

As far as the holy trinity, I think there might be two different trinities, a trinity of genre and a trinity of mechanics. Except I think its a quadrinity. Maybe something like...

For genre:
OD&D (fantasy)
CoC (horror)
Traveller (sci-fi)
Champions (supers)

For mechanics:
OD&D (class, race, level, hit points)
Traveller (careers, lifepaths, skills, use-based advancement)
Champions (point build, advantages, disadvantages)
Vampire (dice pools, personality mechanics)

Also not clear if it should be the first or the most important in each category.

Quote from: amacris;637914How would you allow for the greater survivability of ST and SW characters versus the default deadliness of Travller?

I think Classic Traveller is decidedly non- deadly! You're most likely to go unconscious (and probably to hospital) after getting shot, thereby preventing a suicidal stand.

Compare that with pocket-sized disintegrators in ST!

What's notable is not deadliness on one hand, but sheer absence on the other hand of any serious risk from standing in hails of fire for prolonged periods.

That said, the leads in TV shows and movies are immortal, and the "red shirts" keel over immediately, because the script says so. Want that in your game, while leaving it a game? Give a figure so many 'lives' to spare. That's basically what D&D Hit Dice amount to, the 'life' simply being broken down into more points.

Quote from: The Butcher;637902True, but other than sleek (for the time) looks, and billing itself as the product of choice for the discerning customer all Apple-like, from a strictly game-design point-of-view, there's not a lot of originality to Vampire. This is one point in which Pundejo and I stand in firm agreement. I just don't hate WW for it.

Have we really looked at the same game here?
... Perhaps not, what really caught me to the Storytelling system was Street Figher (II) as an rpg, then Werewolf, and only years later i got Vampire too ... which eventually changed my opinion on magic in games.

Before that, in my corner of the world, it had mainly been Basic Roleplay variants and Palladium that was "ruling".
D'n'D? Forget it, Sweden had it's own version, DoD (or Dragons and Demons as it would be translated to english ... including ducks), that was ruling instead at that time.
Oh, and CoC was often ignored to the benefit of Chock(a translation of Chill, i think), and later KULT.

Anyway, i tended to find the character creation, and the rules systems, especially in Palladiums games to be very clumsy, so when i found the Storytelling System, it seemed like heaven, with straightforward rules, and an easily understandable character creation ...

.... So, ok, my experience may be highly influenced by the limitations that used to be in "my corner of the world", but i still haven't seen any faster published system than the "storytelling one" (not counting freeform-systems or partial freeform-systems) ...

Quote from: amacris;637914Wow. That was awesome! I want run Star Trek Traveller and Star Wars Traveller on the basis of these posts. How would you allow for the greater survivability of ST and SW characters versus the default deadliness of Travller? (E.g. lightsabers blocking blasters, etc.)

For Light Sabers blocking blasters I'd just allow a Palladium style parry that's boosted with the character's precog rating.  It's a little weak but I think plot immunity of some sort is more appropriate to the cinematic settings.

I'd take a page from WEG's Starwars on that one: Force Points.  The Referee should generate everyone's psi potential and ignore that many potentially deadly hits, including vehicular ones, telling the players they've lucked out when it happens so they know there's a diminishing resource that's running out.  Force trained individuals lose a point of psi strength each time it happens since they're trained to understand and be sensitive to these things.

Vector movement has to go from space combat for both settings.  I'd just treat the drive as movement points and charge a point for a hex side change and allow a piloting roll to make the turn for free or make a tighter 120 degree turn with a roll and a thrust point.  A Star Wars space combat hex is a kilometer and a Star Trek space combat hex is ten light seconds but in both cases you have to be in the same hex to attack :D

Ship mounted phasers need a little more detail.  I'm thinking you should be able to make a Gunner skill roll (8+ of course) to pick your hit location.  Phasers are beam lasers and disruptors are pulse lasers.  The computers, of course, stay the same size.  I'm thinking I'd make the shields double the Power Plant rating so actual lasers can do one point of damage and phasers, disruptors, can do 2 points of damage.  Missiles do 1d6 hits and photon torpedoes do 2d6.

Actually I'll just take the Traveller for Trek and Starwars discussion to a new thread.

Anyhow, how bout the unholy trinity?

FATAL, RaWaHo, and Wraethulu or KABAL, Fantasy Wargaming (Galloway's), and Space Opera?

Quote from: Replicant2;637627I might go with Original D&D, Call of Cthulhu, and Vampire: The Masquerade.

The first is the Black Sabbath of role playing and started it all.

The second elevated RPGs into an art form and might still be the most perfect RPG ever created.

The third seems to brought the "role" back into "role playing game" in a more extroverted way, and infused a new generation of players into the hobby. Although I'm not a fan.

Absolutely agree with.

Each hugely important to the hobby at the time (and in D&D's case, still is) and influential to games that came after.

D&D is the template for everything. Fighter, Thief, Cleric, Wizard are archetypes that remain with us in pretty much every game ever.

CoC was the dawn of rpgs with interesting stories to tell.  I know Runequest folks throw a shit fit about this but honestly RQ back in the '70s was not much more than D&D games that had Ducks with crossbows.

Vampire was D&D reborn through the prism of emo-play. I had never seen as much character-worship since the heyday of AD&D 1st. But now the PCs were the monsters. What a twist!  Vampire's design ethos is still felt around what remains of the hobby.

D&D or Vampire.

I doubt anything else even comes close to the sales of these properties.

For me:

1: D&D

2: The general Runequest system in it's many incarnations, which includes, CoC, Stormbringer etc..

3: The Rolemaster system (Including it's many incarnations and Spacemaster included).

This is just from my POV as the first RPG I played was D&D and played it for many years in it's various incarnations.
But the first game I ran was Stormbringer which used the Runequest system and I played/ran many RPGs that used the Runequset system.
I also played and ran Rolemaster/Spacemaster off and on over the years a lot.

I still stick by my comments upthread that you have to thing in generations.


Gen 0 - 0D&D

Gen 1 is (A)D&D , CoC and Traveller - each game has a different approach, mechanical structure and adventure style. Other games might have some of these but not all 3 Runequest is still fantasy and plays like D&D with different rules. Gama World is Sci-Fi but it plays, well like D&D in a different setting.

Gen 2 is WoD, d6 Star Wars and Gurps - again different approach, different mechanics. WoD, like it or hate it is different the genre the mechanics and the focus on social play and politicking etc. If you add its LARP aspect it's even more pronounced. Star Wars is there because it's a landmark in licensed games, yes there had been others Marvel Superheroes, James Bond etc etc but Star Wars is the biggie. GURPS is the archetypal point buy game. Yes Champions is earlier and I debated the two but in terms of longevity GURPS wins hands down. Marvel Superheroes deserves a nod. Supers genre, universal resolution table mechanic. But I gave Star Wars the benefit of the doubt.

Gen 3 this is perhaps more debatable. I add SW because I think it epitomizes the return to rules lite games and yet it's entirely original and has an entirely original mechanic, same target number , bigger dice, and it's very popular. I don't include any retro clones, I think that is an important movement but it doesn't satisfy a change in game style, mechanics or approach (which of course is the point). I think you need an RPG that uses narrative mechanics in here. I don't know enough about them to pick I was tempted by Sorcerer as comments say it was laying stuff out that was groundbreaking, but that is going to be too contentious for this site. The point is that narrative mechanics satisfy the points of a different approach, mechanics and play style.  


Now I would love to Include Amber, which satisfies all three elements, but love it though I might it didn't have a long life beyond its self and it was at best niche. Pundit's stab at Lords of Olympus and the forthcoming Lords of Gossamer and Shadow may inspire a renaissance in Diceless games but I am not holding my breath. If it does then Amber makes the list as a Gen 2 game.


I would also like to add Bunnies and Burrows as one of the Gen 1 games. After all first published game ('76) with a fleshed out skill system and martial arts, and it puts FGU on the table which I think is deserve red however, I will admit that it's elegant well written mechanics and outstanding genre emulation were perhaps overlooked by the unwashed masses...

I actually think that Bunnies and Burrows deserves a renaissance and maybe that should be my contribution to the OSR....

d6 Star Wars was REALLY big at one point (very end of the 80s). We played the hell of Star Wars d6 in France and all the modules and supplements were available in French. Traveller... we never had even heard about. Seriously. So in terms - purely, solely - of popularity in sci-fi, I think Star Wars d6 wins, hands down.

Going by Popularity...

1. D&D
2. Vampire: The Masquerade
3: D20

Going by influence on future system designs..

1. Ghostbusters
2. James Bond
3. Prince Valiant

Going by Awesomeness

1. FASERIP
2. WHFRP 1E
3. Everything else thats awesome

Quote from: danbuter;637961D&D or Vampire.

I doubt anything else even comes close to the sales of these properties.

If you are talking pure sales, then d6 Star Wars and D&D. Vampire came in a distant third to those two. D&D is the top of the heap, but during the late 80s and early 90s, d6 Star Wars was beating it in sales and popularity which coinsides with the low point of TSR. I'd say that Vampire was could have been equal in popularity, but at its heyday it was competing with the first big surge of CCGs which really hit RPG sales hard.

I should probably amend that this is all from my experiences in the USA.

I have to back D&D, Traveller, Call of Cthulhu, and Warhammer FRP as the four foundational RPGs.

If you look at every other RPG, they all borrow from those four in some way.

D&D: Leveling up
Traveller: Skills and core task resolution
CoC: Genre emulation
WFRP: Setting directly integrated into rules

WFRP is probably the murky one, but here's how I see it: Take away the Old World, and the system, specifically careers, makes no sense. Porting the rules to Middle Earth or Greyhawk requires you to do massive changes to the list of careers. IMO, it paved the way for things like Vampire's clans.

Quote from: Chairman Meow;637983I have to back D&D, Traveller, Call of Cthulhu, and Warhammer FRP as the four foundational RPGs.

If you look at every other RPG, they all borrow from those four in some way.

D&D: Leveling up
Traveller: Skills and core task resolution
CoC: Genre emulation
WFRP: Setting directly integrated into rules

WFRP is probably the murky one, but here's how I see it: Take away the Old World, and the system, specifically careers, makes no sense. Porting the rules to Middle Earth or Greyhawk requires you to do massive changes to the list of careers. IMO, it paved the way for things like Vampire's clans.

Warhammer isn't even close.
Tekumel had integrated world and setting long, long before and it was common in a lot of the games that rippled out of D&D and Runequest. I would say that Runequest's tie to Glorantha was the first try at this and that was in '78 whereas WFRP came out in '86 long after the dust had settled. Warhammer does nothing to change approach to the game or genre

Quote from: jibbajibba;637990Warhammer isn't even close.
Tekumel had integrated world and setting long, long before and it was common in a lot of the games that rippled out of D&D and Runequest. I would say that Runequest's tie to Glorantha was the first try at this and that was in '78 whereas WFRP came out in '86 long after the dust had settled. Warhammer does nothing to change approach to the game or genre

Were Tekumel's mechanics specifically tied to the setting? OTOH, I do vaguely recall the magic system and magic items being steeped in Tekumel lore.

Quote from: Chairman Meow;637993Were Tekumel's mechanics specifically tied to the setting? OTOH, I do vaguely recall the magic system and magic items being steeped in Tekumel lore.

Pretty certain it does but even putting it to one side. there are games from Marvel Superheroes, to James Bond, to Bushido, to Toon to Paranoia etc etc that had embedded settings in mechanics before GW thought that building an RGP was a good idea.

We aren't looking just for great game systems here we are looking for the innovators that changed the paradigm in some way and had an influence on future designs.

In the early 1980s it was pretty obviously AD&D/D&D, Traveller and RuneQuest. I'm not sure the idea of a holy trinity still works today.

The real question here is "trinity of what?", because that very much affects the answer.

Trinity of the most popular RPGs? There "D&D(all versions) and Vampire/WoD" blow everything else out of the water.

Trinity of the initial defining games of their genre? You'd need a lot more than a trinity. There certainly D&D defined fantasy, Traveller defined sci-fi, CoC defined occult, Vampire defined pretentious posing, etc.

If what you're looking for is a Trinity of games that had the most overall influence on the hobby, then it would have to be D&D, Vampire, and "D20", though the latter is kind of cheating as it didn't have a single product.

If you're looking at the three games that had the most innovative influence, there would be D&D (virtually all other RPGs are in some way imitative), maybe the first entirely point-buy game (Champions or GURPS, I forget which one) and Amber Diceless.
Pretty much everything else, certainly including vampire and CoC, are derivative of one or more of these.

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