https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/720223857/the-great-kingdom
"A feature length documentary uncovering the true tale of the rise and fall of the creators Dungeons & Dragons."
Quote"The AMERICAN DREAM can become the AMERICAN NIGHTMARE, if you’re not careful." - Mary Gygax, 1985
Anyone? The marked for looking waayyy back in hobby seems booming right now. Geezer, will you be in it?
Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;761239https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/720223857/the-great-kingdom
"A feature length documentary uncovering the true tale of the rise and fall of the creators Dungeons & Dragons."
Anyone? The marked for looking waayyy back in hobby seems booming right now. Geezer, will you be in it?
[EDIT] and any of you know anything about the D&D movie project, that these guys were part of previously?
There's a brief shot of me in the trailer.
I have two concerns.
First, I do worry what the spin will be of the documentary--it sounds a bit like they're playing up the tragedy angle of Gary and Dave as fallen icons. Gail Gygax had told me that she was not asked to be interviewed for it, which is a little weird since she was a part of that era. I'm curious who at the TSR era will be interviewed and how that will skew any perspective, but that's a risk for any documentary.
But more importantly, I am more concerned because this is a Kickstarter asking for funds when a few of the in people charge of this project, including Andrew Pascal and (I believe) James Sprattley, have apparently abandoned their other Kickstarter, the D&D Documentary one. I'm really hesitant to contribute to a Kickstarter when it appears that they've left another one that they are still legally obligated to see to fulfillment. There doesn't appear to any communication from their camp about this previous project, and based on the communications from the former partner, I can't really trust to contribute to this Kickstarter unless their involvement with the other one gets cleared up.
Quote from: Old Geezer;761244There's a brief shot of me in the trailer.
The guy with the broom? :D
So is this the same documentary as from a month or so ago that had some issues? Or something new? Alot of the footage looks like its from the other project?
I'd rather have a book on the last five or so years of TSR. Like, where was all the money going? Why did they support so many competing lines? That type of shit.
Quote from: Randaconda;761262I'd rather have a book on the last five or so years of TSR. Like, where was all the money going? Why did they support so many competing lines? That type of shit.
Even better would be unabridged copies of the original ledgers from that time period. :)
Quote from: Randaconda;761262I'd rather have a book on the last five or so years of TSR. Like, where was all the money going? Why did they support so many competing lines? That type of shit.
The money was going into the Blumes and Loraine's pockets for a while. The Blumes were spending money on all sorts of non-gaming stuff. A fleet of cars, putting several relatives on the payroll, the loom factory or somesuch and overprinting something, possibly several somethings. One of Loraine's first acts was to jack her own salary 10k. (Dont know if that was annual or what.) She was pulling royalties on every Buck Rogers product made, including the coffetable reprint of the comics she had done. Also TSR blew alot of cash on lawsuits.
As for why so many lines? That is what the players wanted. Diversity to suit their interest. WOTC learned this one ASAP when they tried to stifle it and others took up the slack from them. Also one of the reasons for so many different systems for each game was part of Gary's design philosophy. He believed that each game needed mechanics tailored to the setting. And he liked to design or encourage others to.
Got both of those from both a brief talk with Gary and from various interviews he had done.
Quote from: ggroy;761263Even better would be unabridged copies of the original ledgers from that time period. :)
Yes!
Quote from: Omega;761264The money was going into the Blumes and Loraine's pockets for a while. The Blumes were spending money on all sorts of non-gaming stuff. A fleet of cars, putting several relatives on the payroll, the loom factory or somesuch and overprinting something, possibly several somethings. One of Loraine's first acts was to jack her own salary 10k. (Dont know if that was annual or what.) She was pulling royalties on every Buck Rogers product made, including the coffetable reprint of the comics she had done. Also TSR blew alot of cash on lawsuits.
As for why so many lines? That is what the players wanted. Diversity to suit their interest. WOTC learned this one ASAP when they tried to stifle it and others took up the slack from them. Also one of the reasons for so many different systems for each game was part of Gary's design philosophy. He believed that each game needed mechanics tailored to the setting. And he liked to design or encourage others to.
Got both of those from both a brief talk with Gary and from various interviews he had done.
Thanks. I heard, so take this with a grain of salt, that many of the nice box sets they put out in the 90s cost more than what they were selling them for.
Quote from: Randaconda;761266Thanks. I heard, so take this with a grain of salt, that many of the nice box sets they put out in the 90s cost more than what they were selling them for.
That was from Ryan Dancey, who should, in theory, know the truth about that. WotC assigned him to look over TSR's financials after the acquisition and diagnose what went wrong.
Quote from: Bobloblah;761273That was from Ryan Dancey, who should, in theory, know the truth about that. WotC assigned him to look over TSR's financials after the acquisition and diagnose what went wrong.
Yeah, I remember the Dancey letter after WotC took over, but I'm not sure he can be taken at his word.
"players didn't want the confusing Planescape."
THIS PLAYER DID!!!!one! *runs off sobbing*
Quote from: Randaconda;761266Thanks. I heard, so take this with a grain of salt, that many of the nice box sets they put out in the 90s cost more than what they were selling them for.
The ones with the DVDs in them might have been.
The boxed sets were big and damn hardy too. Those werent cheap posterboard like Games Workshop used. But unless TSR was taking a hellish gouging from the printers. It seems unlikely the boxes were underselling by much, if at all. But the better boxes might have actually tipped it.
But there were some ledger doctoring going on at TSR so I wouldnt take anything at face value.
We will never know.
I had a bit of input into the film :)
Quote from: Randaconda;761276Yeah, I remember the Dancey letter after WotC took over, but I'm not sure he can be taken at his word.
Yeah, that's why I say "should." There are several aspects of the story I find hard to credit, but who knows? Stranger things have happened.
Will this include the Kuntz/Gygax paternity suit?
Quote from: Brad;761289Will this include the Kuntz/Gygax paternity suit?
What the holy hell?
Quote from: CRKrueger;761337What the holy hell?
Bad data. Pay it no mind.
In other words, he totally yanked that out of his ass.
Quote from: Old Geezer;761351Bad data. Pay it no mind.
In other words, he totally yanked that out of his ass.
You saying Gygax pulled out of Kuntz before he got pregnant?
Quote from: Old Geezer;761351Bad data. Pay it no mind.
In other words, he totally yanked that out of his ass.
Reliable source. Although he could have been drunk.
Quote from: Fiasco;761355You saying Gygax pulled out of Kuntz before he got pregnant?
LOL!
Quote from: Fiasco;761355You saying Gygax pulled out of Kuntz before he got pregnant?
No, he pulled out of Kuntz before YOU got pregnant.
Quote from: Randaconda;761262I'd rather have a book on the last five or so years of TSR. Like, where was all the money going? Why did they support so many competing lines? That type of shit.
(shrugs) TSR wasn't the first company -- or the first five hundredth -- that rode the wave of fad-dom to the crest, only to find them overextended, overexpanded and clueless when the boom times were over.
Quote from: Randaconda;761262I'd rather have a book on the last five or so years of TSR. Like, where was all the money going? Why did they support so many competing lines? That type of shit.
Hookers. Blow.
And quite likely, designing a roleplaying game about hookers and blow.
JG
Quote from: Omega;761279The boxed sets were big and damn hardy too. Those werent cheap posterboard like Games Workshop used. But unless TSR was taking a hellish gouging from the printers. It seems unlikely the boxes were underselling by much, if at all. But the better boxes might have actually tipped it.
But there were some ledger doctoring going on at TSR so I wouldnt take anything at face value.
We will never know.
American Science & Surplus used to sell lots of TSR products that presumably TSR dumped.
I bought a lot of those. They had a lot of boxed sets, but most of it was Buck Rogers. Not the D&D like game, but the adventure game. Also a smattering of Al Qadim and Ravenloft. But mostly it was generic stuff.
But then when WOTC took over, it was nothing but Birthright supplements. They dumped the boxed set for the last one (for the Russian like people) and it must have sold even worse, since I ended up with about 30 of them, 1-2 in each lot.
Quote from: Randaconda;761276Yeah, I remember the Dancey letter after WotC took over, but I'm not sure he can be taken at his word.
"players didn't want the confusing Planescape."
THIS PLAYER DID!!!!one! *runs off sobbing*
Did he say that? I know he did say that pretty much every single planescape product was, because of production values, being sold at a loss.
Quote from: RPGPundit;762143Did he say that? I know he did say that pretty much every single planescape product was, because of production values, being sold at a loss.
http://insaneangel.com/insaneangel/RPG/Dancey.html (http://insaneangel.com/insaneangel/RPG/Dancey.html)
Quote from: DanceyWe listened when the customers told us that Alternity wasn't what they wanted in a science fiction game. We listened when customers told us that they didn't want the confusing, jargon filled world of Planescape. We listened when people told us that the Ravenloft concept was overshadowed by the products of a competitor. We listened to customers who told us that they want core materials, not world materials. That they buy DUNGEON magazine every two months at a rate twice that of our best selling stand-alone adventures.
QuoteThat they buy DUNGEON magazine every two months at a rate twice that of our best selling stand-alone adventures.
Um. Dancy... you ARE aware that Dungeon packed something like 3 or more adventures an issue... At I think 1/2 the price of a module? RIGHT?
Quote from: Ravenswing;761433(shrugs) TSR wasn't the first company -- or the first five hundredth -- that rode the wave of fad-dom to the crest, only to find them overextended, overexpanded and clueless when the boom times were over.
Going from the leading edge, to the bleeding edge, as they say in business.
Well, it looks like the makers of The Great Kingdom are being sued over their departure from the D&D Documentary.
There was a recent update, and they posted a link to a copy of the legal complaint filed in court.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nozd3cwui0bom9a/1%20summons%20complaint%281%29.pdf
Quote from: JRT;762206Well, it looks like the makers of The Great Kingdom are being sued over their departure from the D&D Documentary.
There was a recent update, and they posted a link to a copy of the legal complaint filed in court.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nozd3cwui0bom9a/1%20summons%20complaint%281%29.pdf
And so they should be. About time some fraudulent kickstarted were held accountable.
Quote from: Omega;762184Um. Dancy... you ARE aware that Dungeon packed something like 3 or more adventures an issue... At I think 1/2 the price of a module? RIGHT?
Yeah, I think that's why he brought it up. ;)
JG
Quote from: Fiasco;762208And so they should be. About time some fraudulent kickstarted were held accountable.
To clarify, the suit is amongst themselves, not a backer against them. Basically, one set of the group is suing the other set of the group for competing unfairly with them and using the contacts made during making the 1st documentary to make the 2nd documentary. In effect, they want the 2nd documentary stopped. I'd rather see both made, but it's almost ironic that a documentary about how money and artistic difference changed how the creators of D&D worked with each other is now basically in the same situation.
Quote from: ptingler;762305To clarify, the suit is amongst themselves, not a backer against them. Basically, one set of the group is suing the other set of the group for competing unfairly with them and using the contacts made during making the 1st documentary to make the 2nd documentary. In effect, they want the 2nd documentary stopped. I'd rather see both made, but it's almost ironic that a documentary about how money and artistic difference changed how the creators of D&D worked with each other is now basically in the same situation.
That's true in terms of what is on the legal documents. We don't 100% know what, if any, contact either party has had with the Kickstarter backers concerning this. It is entirely possible that Westpaw Films (the plaintiffs) were, if not actually prompted by loud complaints from the Kickstarter backers, at least emboldened by the backers' legitimate grievances. Also, bringing the case this way is likely to be much less complicated than trying to get a collective lawsuit on behalf of the backers or a subfaction thereof (and less disruptive than individual backers bringing individual lawsuits - which they could do, though I suspect unless you'd backed to the order of thousands of dollars or simply didn't care about the expense you wouldn't want to take that route).
That said, let's look at where Kickstarter is mentioned in the complaint:
- The allegation is that creative differences were brewing even as the Kickstarter was ongoing. In hindsight, I have to wonder a) whether the fat stax of bux involved in the Kickstarter didn't make dollar signs appear in people's eyes and greed stir in their hearts, and b) whether it wouldn't have been better to cancel the Kickstarter when it became evident the relationship between the project managers was breaking down, though then you have the issue of who actually has the right to cancel a Kickstarter when multiple people are behind the project.
- The Kickstarter funds were used in part to reimburse each party's initial stake in the production. That part I don't think is dodgy - production costs are production costs, after all, whether they were incurred before or after the Kickstarter happened.
- Westpaw are trying to present themselves in the complaint as champions of the Kickstarter backers, talking about how they've been trying their best to ensure that the film is made and the backers get their awards to no avail.
- The confusion raised by the competing Kickstarters is a key part of Westpaw's case - they have exhibits showing both Kickstarter backers and documentary contributors expressing this confusion.
- There's a really damning bit of evidence where Rob Kuntz made a blog post about an interview, apparently under the impression that it was for the original documentary, when in fact the interview was filmed for the new one. Obviously the plaintiffs are going to have cherry-picked that in order to make the defendants look bad and Rob might stand in the dock and simply say "I mistyped, I obviously was referring to the second documentary", but even so it really underscores the confusion between the two projects. (If this case were being fought in the UK I would suggest investigating a passing-off claim, since this seems to be precisely the sort of situation that passing off provisions exist to counter.)
Since they were provided in the Dropbox, I have the alternate exhibits for people mentioned in the suit.
Exhibit A.
https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/ViewDocument?docIndex=rCmpCooWP5YnjWodnAFl6Q==
(Note that the Confidentiality clause means that we're not likely to hear outside of a trial the issues that lead to their breakup.)
Exhibit B
https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/ViewDocument?docIndex=yhtsPglQjuUqFRF/SxFGDw==
Exhibit C
https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/ViewDocument?docIndex=DpoM7T9jceMNafLJWAspCQ==
Exhibit D
https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/ViewDocument?docIndex=OyV142cy44QFI5ZJP7LT8Q==
Exhibit E
https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/ViewDocument?docIndex=DqUhlxzBxYymH_PLUS_Wa0F5OjA==
As a Kickstarter backer, I can confirm that there has been a lot of radio silence from either party on this--it was only after a few months had passed that we got an answer from the original documentary camp--likely also due to that confidentiality arrangement.
When EGG relocated to Hollywood circa 1982, wasn't it literally hookers and blow??
Dave Arneson: Don't you ever fuck me, Gary.
Gary Gygax: Say hello to my little friend...
Quote from: The_Shadow;762657When EGG relocated to Hollywood circa 1982, wasn't it literally hookers and blow??
Dave Arneson: Don't you ever fuck me, Gary.
Gary Gygax: Say hello to my little friend...
*Gygax kills mooks with copies of Unearthed Arcana*
Quote from: ptingler;762305To clarify, the suit is amongst themselves, not a backer against them. Basically, one set of the group is suing the other set of the group for competing unfairly with them and using the contacts made during making the 1st documentary to make the 2nd documentary. In effect, they want the 2nd documentary stopped. I'd rather see both made, but it's almost ironic that a documentary about how money and artistic difference changed how the creators of D&D worked with each other is now basically in the same situation.
There was a Bloom County strip about investors trying to make a documentary about John deLorean, and they wound up doing the same shenanigans (coke deals, etc.)...the punchline to the story arc was one character saying "Hey, this would make a heck of a movie, you know?"
This one is going to be really close.
I think they should have timed it better. If they had waited until starting it now, they could have hit both the San Diego ComicCon and GenCon and gotten some extra attention for it.
The biggest problem will be convincing a lot of people to contribute. Many of the potential people are also likely the same ones who backed the D&D Doc, and regardless of who's right or wrong in the suit, it leaves a bad taste in some people's mouth to feel like they are contributing a second time to it. I'm sure the legal actions have given people pause--at least when it comes to contributing hard earned money.
There's also a bit more "meh" from the community. It seems the biggest cheerleaders for the project, at least from what I've seen online, are those who are the subjects interviewed for the project, or close friends of theirs. Others are more ambivalent this time around. There was a lot more major backing from bigger names--the two books such as Playing at the World, prints, etc. This new one just added a few last minute swag the last few days, but again it's from people interviewed by the film itself.
Here's the current chart for it.
(http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/720223857/the-great-kingdom/minichart.png) (http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/720223857/the-great-kingdom/)
If it succeeds, good for them. If it fails, I'd probably suggest they wait and time it better around a major con or something like that, as well as be more prepped for the on-line pushes needed to promote these things.
Timing is a factor for something as trouble prone as this project.
Also "The Great Kingdom" isnt as attention grabbing a title for D&D fans. I missed it at least twice on Youtube because of the title cut off and all it read as was "The Great Kingdom: The rise and..." could have been a Disney documentary for all we knew.
"Kingdom of Gygax" or something else more on target.
Quote from: JRT;770015This one is going to be really close.
I think they should have timed it better. If they had waited until starting it now, they could have hit both the San Diego ComicCon and GenCon and gotten some extra attention for it.
Maybe. I'm not sure what data there is on having a Kickstarter running during a convention, but I think it's more likely that it would be overshadowed by everything else at the con, and that the gamers at those cons are going to blow their wallets there and have to wait a month or two to fill them up again.
Quote from: Mark Plemmons;771981Maybe. I'm not sure what data there is on having a Kickstarter running during a convention, but I think it's more likely that it would be overshadowed by everything else at the con, and that the gamers at those cons are going to blow their wallets there and have to wait a month or two to fill them up again.
Correct. People are usually flat broke just before, during, and right after a con.
Quote from: Omega;761279We will never know.
Well, let's sum up:
(1) A source with no motivation to lie about it and in a position to actually know something says X was true.
(2) Some random dude on the internet says X can't possibly be true.
... nah. I think we know this one pretty well.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;771993Well, let's sum up:
(1) A source with no motivation to lie about it and in a position to actually know something says X was true.
(2) Some random dude on the internet says X can't possibly be true.
... nah. I think we know this one pretty well.
Well its good of you to admit you were wrong... :rolleyes:
And yes. The DVD pack ins probably werent helping. Depends on how prevalent they were.TSR was sinking cash into alot of crazy ass things at the time and THAT according to Gygax.
Well, I was actually going to post this to both Kickstarter sites, but it looks like only one Kickstarter site is left. The D&D Documentary camp was successful in getting an injunction against The Great Kingdom, and they were forced to take down their Kickstarter site, their web site, and their facebook page.
https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/ViewDocument?docIndex=8P/vidy_PLUS_U4yq5ACBctSZVw==
This doesn't end it, but it kind of sets it back...I suspect either the development will continue privately or else the Kickstarter money TGK has collected might be stored in escrow until this is resolved.
Quote from: Omega;761264As for why so many lines? That is what the players wanted. Diversity to suit their interest. WOTC learned this one ASAP when they tried to stifle it and others took up the slack from them. Also one of the reasons for so many different systems for each game was part of Gary's design philosophy. He believed that each game needed mechanics tailored to the setting. And he liked to design or encourage others to.
I miss the old days when a company would have more than one game. Just from TSR my brother and I had Gangbusters, Basic D&D, Star Frontiers, and Boot Hill. And FGU and GDW had quite a few I liked as well.
And my biggest beef with the new games I see is how companies just seem to try to cram any setting into the same mechanics whether they are genre-apppropriate or not. MWP is one that I don't care for with its compulsion to recycle its "Cortex" system over and over. I like it when the mechanics are built around the setting, as in Pendragon. That seems ideal to me. Is it a lost art? Everyone lately seems to want to recycle D&D mechanics.
Quote from: Matt;776399And my biggest beef with the new games I see is how companies just seem to try to cram any setting into the same mechanics whether they are genre-apppropriate or not. MWP is one that I don't care for with its compulsion to recycle its "Cortex" system over and over. I like it when the mechanics are built around the setting, as in Pendragon. That seems ideal to me. Is it a lost art? Everyone lately seems to want to recycle D&D mechanics.
Different design philosophies.
Some look at a system and see endless possibilities. Others dont.
But what some forget is that each retool needs its own additional little mechanics to cover specifics sometimes.
Metamorphosis Alpha, Gamma World, and Boot Hill are all compatible with D&D. But each has its own unique twists.
A core system is a REALLY strong marketing tool too. If its cross compatible then players are more likely to gove it a try since they dont need to learn a totally new system every time. We learned that one early on.
Quote from: Omega;776454If its cross compatible then players are more likely to gove it a try since they dont need to learn a totally new system every time. We learned that one early on.
Not sure I believe that without evidence. Board games seem to have no trouble getting players to learn new rules for different games. Unless RPGers are very different in their willingness to learn. Could be wrong.
Quote from: Matt;776460Not sure I believe that without evidence. Board games seem to have no trouble getting players to learn new rules for different games. Unless RPGers are very different in their willingness to learn. Could be wrong.
Short of some wargames, RPGs tend to be exponentially more complex in rules than most board games. Most commercial board games have rulebooks that are sometimes one to four pages in length.
and some wargames use the same, or very simmilar system or format from one to the next. SPI is the posterchild for that. Every one of their games that I have has the same general format, layout and even sometimes mechanics.
That familliarity helps for complex games and SPI games tended to be that as example.
Its a discussion that pops up with publishers and designers every few years and the end result is allways the same. Some prefer a core system and build from there. Some have incompatible systems for every product.