Quote from: Omega;762184Um. Dancy... you ARE aware that Dungeon packed something like 3 or more adventures an issue... At I think 1/2 the price of a module? RIGHT?

Yeah, I think that's why he brought it up.

JG

Quote from: Fiasco;762208And so they should be. About time some fraudulent kickstarted were held accountable.

To clarify, the suit is amongst themselves, not a backer against them. Basically, one set of the group is suing the other set of the group for competing unfairly with them and using the contacts made during making the 1st documentary to make the 2nd documentary. In effect, they want the 2nd documentary stopped. I'd rather see both made, but it's almost ironic that a documentary about how money and artistic difference changed how the creators of D&D worked with each other is now basically in the same situation.

Quote from: ptingler;762305To clarify, the suit is amongst themselves, not a backer against them. Basically, one set of the group is suing the other set of the group for competing unfairly with them and using the contacts made during making the 1st documentary to make the 2nd documentary. In effect, they want the 2nd documentary stopped. I'd rather see both made, but it's almost ironic that a documentary about how money and artistic difference changed how the creators of D&D worked with each other is now basically in the same situation.

That's true in terms of what is on the legal documents. We don't 100% know what, if any, contact either party has had with the Kickstarter backers concerning this. It is entirely possible that Westpaw Films (the plaintiffs) were, if not actually prompted by loud complaints from the Kickstarter backers, at least emboldened by the backers' legitimate grievances. Also, bringing the case this way is likely to be much less complicated than trying to get a collective lawsuit on behalf of the backers or a subfaction thereof (and less disruptive than individual backers bringing individual lawsuits - which they could do, though I suspect unless you'd backed to the order of thousands of dollars or simply didn't care about the expense you wouldn't want to take that route).

That said, let's look at where Kickstarter is mentioned in the complaint:

- The allegation is that creative differences were brewing even as the Kickstarter was ongoing. In hindsight, I have to wonder a) whether the fat stax of bux involved in the Kickstarter didn't make dollar signs appear in people's eyes and greed stir in their hearts, and b) whether it wouldn't have been better to cancel the Kickstarter when it became evident the relationship between the project managers was breaking down, though then you have the issue of who actually has the right to cancel a Kickstarter when multiple people are behind the project.

- The Kickstarter funds were used in part to reimburse each party's initial stake in the production. That part I don't think is dodgy - production costs are production costs, after all, whether they were incurred before or after the Kickstarter happened.

- Westpaw are trying to present themselves in the complaint as champions of the Kickstarter backers, talking about how they've been trying their best to ensure that the film is made and the backers get their awards to no avail.

- The confusion raised by the competing Kickstarters is a key part of Westpaw's case - they have exhibits showing both Kickstarter backers and documentary contributors expressing this confusion.

- There's a really damning bit of evidence where Rob Kuntz made a blog post about an interview, apparently under the impression that it was for the original documentary, when in fact the interview was filmed for the new one. Obviously the plaintiffs are going to have cherry-picked that in order to make the defendants look bad and Rob might stand in the dock and simply say "I mistyped, I obviously was referring to the second documentary", but even so it really underscores the confusion between the two projects. (If this case were being fought in the UK I would suggest investigating a passing-off claim, since this seems to be precisely the sort of situation that passing off provisions exist to counter.)

Since they were provided in the Dropbox, I have the alternate exhibits for people mentioned in the suit.

Exhibit A.

https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/ViewDocument?docIndex=rCmpCooWP5YnjWodnAFl6Q==

(Note that the Confidentiality clause means that we're not likely to hear outside of a trial the issues that lead to their breakup.)

Exhibit B

https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/ViewDocument?docIndex=yhtsPglQjuUqFRF/SxFGDw==

Exhibit C

https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/ViewDocument?docIndex=DpoM7T9jceMNafLJWAspCQ==

Exhibit D

https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/ViewDocument?docIndex=OyV142cy44QFI5ZJP7LT8Q==

Exhibit E

https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/ViewDocument?docIndex=DqUhlxzBxYymH_PLUS_Wa0F5OjA==

As a Kickstarter backer, I can confirm that there has been a lot of radio silence from either party on this--it was only after a few months had passed that we got an answer from the original documentary camp--likely also due to that confidentiality arrangement.

When EGG relocated to Hollywood circa 1982, wasn't it literally hookers and blow??

Dave Arneson: Don't you ever fuck me, Gary.
Gary Gygax: Say hello to my little friend...

Quote from: The_Shadow;762657When EGG relocated to Hollywood circa 1982, wasn't it literally hookers and blow??

Dave Arneson: Don't you ever fuck me, Gary.
Gary Gygax: Say hello to my little friend...

*Gygax kills mooks with copies of Unearthed Arcana*

Quote from: ptingler;762305To clarify, the suit is amongst themselves, not a backer against them. Basically, one set of the group is suing the other set of the group for competing unfairly with them and using the contacts made during making the 1st documentary to make the 2nd documentary. In effect, they want the 2nd documentary stopped. I'd rather see both made, but it's almost ironic that a documentary about how money and artistic difference changed how the creators of D&D worked with each other is now basically in the same situation.

There was a Bloom County strip about investors trying to make a documentary about John deLorean, and they wound up doing the same shenanigans (coke deals, etc.)...the punchline to the story arc was one character saying "Hey, this would make a heck of a movie, you know?"

This one is going to be really close.  

I think they should have timed it better.  If they had waited until starting it now, they could have hit both the San Diego ComicCon and GenCon and gotten some extra attention for it.

The biggest problem will be convincing a lot of people to contribute.  Many of the potential people are also likely the same ones who backed the D&D Doc, and regardless of who's right or wrong in the suit, it leaves a bad taste in some people's mouth to feel like they are contributing a second time to it.  I'm sure the legal actions have given people pause--at least when it comes to contributing hard earned money.

There's also a bit more "meh" from the community.  It seems the biggest cheerleaders for the project, at least from what I've seen online, are those who are the subjects interviewed for the project, or close friends of theirs.  Others are more ambivalent this time around.   There was a lot more major backing from bigger names--the two books such as Playing at the World, prints, etc.  This new one just added a few last minute swag the last few days, but again it's from people interviewed by the film itself.

Here's the current chart for it.



If it succeeds, good for them.  If it fails, I'd probably suggest they wait and time it better around a major con or something like that, as well as be more prepped for the on-line pushes needed to promote these things.

Timing is a factor for something as trouble prone as this project.

Also "The Great Kingdom" isnt as attention grabbing a title for D&D fans. I missed it at least twice on Youtube because of the title cut off and all it read as was "The Great Kingdom: The rise and..." could have been a Disney documentary for all we knew.

"Kingdom of Gygax" or something else more on target.

Quote from: JRT;770015This one is going to be really close.  
I think they should have timed it better.  If they had waited until starting it now, they could have hit both the San Diego ComicCon and GenCon and gotten some extra attention for it.

Maybe. I'm not sure what data there is on having a Kickstarter running during a convention, but I think it's more likely that it would be overshadowed by everything else at the con, and that the gamers at those cons are going to blow their wallets there and have to wait a month or two to fill them up again.

Quote from: Mark Plemmons;771981Maybe. I'm not sure what data there is on having a Kickstarter running during a convention, but I think it's more likely that it would be overshadowed by everything else at the con, and that the gamers at those cons are going to blow their wallets there and have to wait a month or two to fill them up again.

Correct. People are usually flat broke just before, during, and right after a con.

Quote from: Omega;761279We will never know.

Well, let's sum up:

(1) A source with no motivation to lie about it and in a position to actually know something says X was true.

(2) Some random dude on the internet says X can't possibly be true.

... nah. I think we know this one pretty well.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;771993Well, let's sum up:

(1) A source with no motivation to lie about it and in a position to actually know something says X was true.

(2) Some random dude on the internet says X can't possibly be true.

... nah. I think we know this one pretty well.

Well its good of you to admit you were wrong... :rolleyes:

And yes. The DVD pack ins probably werent helping. Depends on how prevalent they were.TSR was sinking cash into alot of crazy ass things at the time and THAT according to Gygax.

Well, I was actually going to post this to both Kickstarter sites, but it looks like only one Kickstarter site is left.  The D&D Documentary camp was successful in getting an injunction against The Great Kingdom, and they were forced to take down their Kickstarter site, their web site, and their facebook page.

https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/ViewDocument?docIndex=8P/vidy_PLUS_U4yq5ACBctSZVw==

This doesn't end it, but it kind of sets it back...I suspect either the development will continue privately or else the Kickstarter money TGK has collected might be stored in escrow until this is resolved.

Quote from: Omega;761264As for why so many lines? That is what the players wanted. Diversity to suit their interest. WOTC learned this one ASAP when they tried to stifle it and others took up the slack from them. Also one of the reasons for so many different systems for each game was part of Gary's design philosophy. He believed that each game needed mechanics tailored to the setting. And he liked to design or encourage others to.

I miss the old days when a company would have more than one game. Just from TSR my brother and I had Gangbusters, Basic D&D, Star Frontiers, and Boot Hill. And FGU and GDW had quite a few I liked as well.

And my biggest beef with the new games I see is how companies just seem to try to cram any setting into the same mechanics whether they are genre-apppropriate or not. MWP is one that I don't care for with its  compulsion to recycle its "Cortex" system over and over. I like it when the mechanics are built around the setting, as in Pendragon. That seems ideal to me. Is it a lost art? Everyone lately seems to want to recycle D&D mechanics.