TheRPGSite

What the hell.

Time to attempt the really stupid.

A roleplaying game possesses the following features:

• It is a game.  That is, it is an activity that has a structure of rules, written or not, which assist in make the activity enjoyable, typically by codifiying conflicts of various kinds.
• In it, participants take on roles - that is, there are fictional personas, which the participants will pretend to be, verbally or actively.  It is implied that these roles exist within some kind of fiction, but no specific kind or degree of fiction is specifically required.

A story game possesses the following features:

• It is a game.  That is, it is an activity that has a structure of rules, written or not, which assist in make the activity enjoyable, typically by codifiying conflicts of various kinds.
• In it, participants create a joint narrative by speaking about the events of the world.  Often, they make use of characters to do so, possibly even making use of specific characters individually.

By these definitions.

• A tabletop RPG is usually both kinds of game.
• A MMORPG is an RPG.
• Universalis is a Story Game, but not an RPG.
• LARP games are RPGs, but not Story Games.

Go, on, tell me how stupid I am.

You're stupid Levi...


Any fool could see this belongs in the Craft forum!


;)

The controversy is really about what it means to "take on a role", and whether "taking on a role" is ever opposed to "speaking about events of the world".

From my perspective, they're different activities. They can be combined more or less well, depending on taste, but they can easily conflict.

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

I don't understand why we bother trying to come up with some rigorous definition of roleplaying. It doesn't actually change the thing itself. It's like when they decided that Pluto was not a "planet" but a "dwarf planet" or whatever they called it - Pluto still kept rotating along with its little buddy hunk of ice Charon, along its long looping orbit about the Sun.

Trying to understand the essence of the thing, and how to make it better - fair enough. But some exact definition? What for?

Quote from: JimBobOzTrying to understand the essence of the thing, and how to make it better - fair enough. But some exact definition? What for?

Because, as lame-ass discussions go, it's better than the last debate?

I wrote a definition for a game (http://www.designmeme.com/2006/11/08/game-design-theory-part-i/) on my blog, based on what we'd been discussing here.  An RPG is a type of game, so it's everything I discussed and more.

A LARP is not a game, and therefore not a roleplaying game.  You can play a game AT a LARP... but it's not a game itself.

Quote from: StuartA LARP is not a game, and therefore not a roleplaying game.  You can play a game AT a LARP... but it's not a game itself.

Ahem - from your article:

QuoteWhere a "game" differs from various rewarding activities and competitions is the way the various players interact with one another as they attempt to overcome challenges and gain rewards. A game requires interaction between the players that has an effect on the challenges of the game. This will in turn affect the rewards the game offers, and how likely each individual is to receive them. The interaction between players creates variability that makes the challenges of the game more unpredictable.

How do LARPs not fit this description?

What is the challenge in a LARP?  Plenty of LARPs don't have any specific challenges or rewards, aside from whatever the individual participants decide to bring to the LARP.  If I can go to a LARP and do pretty much whatever I feel like, it's not a game.

Now, if there is a specific LARP-Game with challenges, interaction and rewards, then it's a game and thus a live-action roleplaying game.

Edit:

Darkon (http://www.darkon.org/) is not a game.  It's an activity.  Within that activity, there are games.  Most notably, some kind of whack people with sticks game, it seems... :)

Edit 2:

The name "LARP" is right on:  Live Action Roleplaying.  It's not a LARPG.

Quote from: StuartWhat is the challenge in a LARP?  Plenty of LARPs don't have any specific challenges or rewards, aside from whatever the individual participants decide to bring to the LARP.  If I can go to a LARP and do pretty much whatever I feel like, it's not a game.

Could you describe what sort of LARPs you are familiar with, please? I'm aware of multiple varieties out there that don't fit this description even slightly, but I don't want to write a long rebuttal until I'm sure I understand you.

I'm saying:  

All games (Sports, RPGs, Card Games, the Lottery, etc) share a common set of traits.  That's what I wrote about on my site.

All RPGs would meet the criteria for being a game, and also have a common set of traits that builds on that definition.

What I'm saying is that "All LARPs" do not meet the criteria of "Game", so LARPS = RPGs wouldn't be accurate since being an RPG requires being a game first.

Specific LARPs could contain games, or even be focused enough that the LARP actually IS a game.  I guess those would be the LARPGs.

Quote from: StuartWhat I'm saying is that "All LARPs" do not meet the criteria of "Game", so LARPS = RPGs wouldn't be accurate since being an RPG requires being a game first.

Could you show me some examples of these, please?

The only real standard for me is the absolute GM/player split, as elaborated-upon in my signature.

That's what makes an RPG.

Quote from: YamoThe only real standard for me is the absolute GM/player split, as elaborated-upon in my signature.

That's what makes an RPG.

But I didn't think you considered LARPs to be RPGs? Every LARP I've been involved with has had this absolute split.

Quote from: WarthurBut I didn't think you considered LARPs to be RPGs? Every LARP I've been involved with has had this absolute split.

Oh, yeah.

RPGs are also played around a goddamn table, not by prancing around the park in a fruity cape.

I should probably add that to my list. :)

QuoteCould you show me some examples of these, please?

LARPing is big in Europe, especially Scandinavia. This link will get you started: http://www.ropecon.fi/brap/

Quote from: StuartLARPing is big in Europe, especially Scandinavia. This link will get you started: http://www.ropecon.fi/brap/

Yes. I know. I live in Europe.

I'm sorry, I'm not expressing myself very well here: please could you give me a specific example of a specific LARP which, in your opinion, is not a game?

Quote from: WarthurYes. I know. I live in Europe.

I'm sorry, I'm not expressing myself very well here: please could you give me a specific example of a specific LARP which, in your opinion, is not a game?

They're all games. They're just not roleplaying games, as defined by the D&D model (table, dice, no retarded costumes).

Quote from: YamoThey're all games. They're just not roleplaying games, as defined by the D&D model (table, dice, no retarded costumes).

D&D isn't the boss of me.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeform_roleplaying_game

QuoteFreeform role-playing games, also called freeforms, are a type of role-playing game which employ minimal or no rules; occupying a middle-ground between traditional role-playing games and improvisational theatre.

If there are rules, it could be a game.  If there are NO RULES, it could be a ton of fun, but it's not a game. Not in the same way Baseball, Blackjack, or D&D are games.  It's only a game in the way that "Let's pretend we're Cowboys!" is a game.  Under that definition, any childhood activity is also a game... and thus, there's virtually no point trying to discuss / define anything relating to games.

Edit:

I no longer live in Europe, and not being able to speak anymore than English and very rough French, I'm not really the best person to give you specific names of LARP events in Norway, Iceland, or Germany.  However, I believe they really do exist, and I think you should too. :)

This is a good overview of LARPs internationally:
http://fate.laiv.org/in_larp.htm

QuoteSome groups use extensive systems of rules and regulations as part of their larps, others rely on improvisation alone.

You'll also find examples of some of the roleplaying I think Andy was talking about earlier...

QuoteAt the moment the larp begins, the organisers will relinquish most of their authority to shape the larp and leave it to the players who pretend to be their characters for the rest of the larp. Even sleeping is considered to be in-character, as a player may be woken up in the middle of the night and be expected to act not as herself but as her character. At a longer event - much time will be spent with the daily life of the character - eating, cooking, working - but the larp will usually take place in an unusual situation such as the days leading up to a major battle or a royal court immediately after the monarchs death.

Also note that this is NOT the same as Live Action Vampire games.

QuoteThere are commercial larp products. "Minds Eye Theatre" and "Cthulhu live!" are larp versions of popular roleplaying game products. They are sold as rulebooks, books of advice, and scenarios (ready-to-play larps). Their being tied-in with the original products and their publishers fear of liability have led to these systems being extremely heavy on impractical rules, and many people allready familiar with an independent larp tradition scorn them as the plague. "Host your own murder mystery" books are also commercial larps, aimed for the market of burgeoise adults who seek to spice up their dinner parties with some roleplaying.

So, I think that SOME LARPs (eg. Vampire) may well be games.  While other LARPs are not.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenD&D isn't the boss of me.

It's the template for the roleplaying game and hence the roleplaying hobby. You are hardly relevent to that.

Do RPGs have formal goals? Or are the goals in an RPG established by the players?

Quote from: YamoIt's the template for the roleplaying game and hence the roleplaying hobby. You are hardly relevent to that.

Allow me to clarify, then:

English is use-defined.  Through use, the meaning of terms, acronyms, and the like are altered.  The greater the number of popular users, the more likely the usage is to be taken seriously.

World of Warcraft is the template for an RPG.

What does "template" have to do with popularity?

Quote from: Levi KornelsenEnglish is use-defined.  Through use, the meaning of terms, acronyms, and the like are altered.  The greater the number of popular users, the more likely the usage is to be taken seriously.

I was going to post that I was suspicious of your original post. Your original post seems to simple for its purported purpose, I suspect that within it are landmines built of words with definitions that are at variance to mine or ones in common use. It's the kind of thing I suspect your starting to do in the above quote. To use those redefined words as rhetorical weapons.

For all his faults RPGPundit seems at least a strait shooter. He dosen't seem mealy mouthed or weasly in his statements, maybe in his responses, but not in what he actually states. Maybe he isn't smart enough, maybe I'm a fool.

From you however, and others, I get this feeling in the pit of my stomach that you are trying to game the fora. That your comments should have an arrow pointed at them with the tag "BEWARE, HERE BE DRAGONS!"

Quote from: darI was going to post that I was suspicious of your original post. Your original post seems to simple for its purported purpose, I suspect that within it are landmines built of words with definitions that are at variance to mine or ones in common use. It's the kind of thing I suspect your starting to do in the above quote. To use those redefined words as rhetorical weapons.

For all his faults RPGPundit seems at least a strait shooter. He dosen't seem mealy mouthed or weasly in his statements, maybe in his responses, but not in what he actually states. Maybe he isn't smart enough, maybe I'm a fool.

From you however, and others, I get this feeling in the pit of my stomach that you are trying to game the fora. That your comments should have an arrow pointed at them with the tag "BEWARE, HERE BE DRAGONS!"

I'm with you. Being fairly smart, but not formally educated, I get kinda annoyed at this when it occurs. Don't know if Levi's doing it now, but it is annoying when I detect it.

Levi: The point is DnD is the RPG origin... the "patient 0" of this disease, as it were. From it, all other RPGs stem (although I'm sure some smart-ass is going to point out how that's completely untrue). Therefore, DnD IS the boss of you, if only because it's the boss of all other RPGs. :D  Embrace it, it will set you free ;)  .

Yeah, I've had the feeling there are a few people who are more interested in int0rw3b discussion fu than being a straight shooter and staying focused on thoughtful, constructive responses.

Come on then – let's name names! AND THEN THE PURGES!!!!!!

Levi Kornelsen! Step forward!!

Captain! They've discovered the Movement! Run!!

Levi Kornelsen!
Christmas Ape!

What I suspect about most of these "Let's settle on a formal definition of X" discussions is that no matter what the original intent is, it gets used later as a rhetorical weapon.

In the past couple of years we've seen words like 'Fun', 'Story', 'Roleplaying', etc, given this treatment. And then inevitably some group (well, the same group every time) will attempt to take ownership of the term and deny it to everyone else.

Quote from: StuartLARPing is big in Europe, especially Scandinavia.

And I'm a Finn myself: sorry to say this, but every single LARP I've attended would have to fall solidly into the category of "games". There are experimental "art LARPs" which might not, but those are an exception, not the rule.

Quote from: SosthenesWhat does "template" have to do with popularity?

Well, if your game isn't based off of the D&D template then you have to pay double the XPs to purchase the Popularity feat, that's all.   It's not that it's impossible, it's just not good minimaxing.

Quote from: SpikeYou're stupid Levi...


Any fool could see this belongs in the Craft forum!


;)

Yea, why do people act like there is only one folder in this forum?  Are they uncapable of navigating a forum or just don't think rules apply to them because they're they are rude bastards?  This should really be in the theory folder.

(This thread should be moved to the Theory section)

Quote from: GrimGentAnd I'm a Finn myself: sorry to say this, but every single LARP I've attended would have to fall solidly into the category of "games". There are experimental "art LARPs" which might not, but those are an exception, not the rule.

Then it sounds like every single LARP you've attended would be a game, and thus, a Roleplaying game.  But if you can accept that there are non-game LARPs, either:
1) Those "art LARPs" are not LARPs; or
2) Not all LARPs are games.

That's really pretty straightforward.  I'll say that any Traditional style RPG that is also not a game (eg. Railroading in the Extreme) is also not a Roleplaying Game.  It's Roleplaying, but not a game.

And really, this is all just semantics.  If you want to think of whatever activity you're doing for fun as a "game" you're not wrong.

There are two ways you could define a game:
1) an amusement or pastime. eg. children's "games".
2) a competitive activity involving skill, chance, or endurance on the part of two or more persons who play according to a set of rules, usually for their own amusement or for that of spectators.  eg. formalized games, of the type discussed in the article I wrote (http://www.designmeme.com/2006/11/08/game-design-theory-part-i/)

So if you want "Roleplaying Game" to mean: "An amusement or pastime involving Roleplaying"  You're absolutely correct!

But that really doesn't help anyone design new Roleplaying Games -- of the type this sites seems to be about, and the type most of the people here seem interested in creating and playing. :(

So, I'll stick with the second definition of game, and use that as a starting point for thinking about how to make better Roleplaying Games.

Quote from: Stuart2) a competitive activity involving skill, chance, or endurance on the part of two or more persons who play according to a set of rules, usually for their own amusement or for that of spectators.  eg. formalized games, of the type discussed in the article I wrote (http://www.designmeme.com/2006/11/08/game-design-theory-part-i/)

Competitive? That's debatable, as I wouldn't necessarily call even tabletop RPGs that. The rules, however, are very much a requirement, and I've never been involved in a LARP which didn't feature a resolution mechanic of one sort or another, often with broad attributes that demand as little OOC consultation as possible.

QuoteCompetitive? That's debatable, as I wouldn't necessarily call even tabletop RPGs that. The rules, however, are very much a requirement, and I've never been involved in a LARP which didn't feature a resolution mechanic of one sort or another, often with broad attributes that demand as little OOC consultation as possible.

I don't think there's really any debate. That doesn't mean the players have to play competitively against each other.  They can play competitively against the system of the game.  They can even play collaboratively against the system -- but there's still competition in that respect.  If there's no competition against ANYTHING, then it's not a game.

A resolution mechanic is certainly a rule, but whether it's related to the actual game itself cam sometimes be misleading.

For example, here's a game:

We roll d6 to see who goes first. Highest roller gets a 10 second head start.
We race to the end of the block, making sure to stop and clap our hands at each lamp post.  The winner of the race gets the red cape, while the loser of the race gets the blue cape.  We spin in circles until we fall down.  Then the nice lady flips a coin.  If it's "heads" the player in the red cape gets a glass of lemoade.  If it's "tails" the player in the blue cape gets the lemonade instead.

What are the rules of this lemonade winning game?

Flip a coin.  Winner gets lemonade.

Everything else is actually irrelevant to that game.  It's all based on one coin toss.  The dice roll, the running, clapping, spinning -- it could all be fun -- but it's not actually part of the game.  It doesn't matter what you roll.  Doesn't matter how fast you run, how many times you clap or how hard, or how much spinning you do before falling down.  You can just go through the motions of all of that.  Only the coin toss matters in the winning of the lemonade.

I think there are probably a lot of LARPs and tabletop RPGs that are like that as well.  Lots of rules, but some of them have no bearing on the actual game itself.

Quote from: StuartFrom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeform_roleplaying_game



If there are rules, it could be a game.  If there are NO RULES, it could be a ton of fun, but it's not a game. Not in the same way Baseball, Blackjack, or D&D are games.  It's only a game in the way that "Let's pretend we're Cowboys!" is a game.  Under that definition, any childhood activity is also a game... and thus, there's virtually no point trying to discuss / define anything relating to games.

Okay, I've played in plenty of freeform LARPs in the UK and pretty much all of them have rules, and many of them have pre-generated characters with specified character goals you are meant to work towards.

In fact, I'd say that - at least in my experience - freeforms which lack rules and goals entirely (and thus no longer fit your definition of a game by any stretch) are vanishingly rare, and also freeform LARPs are very much a niche of a niche of a niche - freeform LARPs get a fraction of the interest that more structured LARPs get, which in turn get only a fraction of the interest that tabletop RPGs get. As such, holding up (occasional, exceptional) freeforms as evidence that LARPs are not games is like holding up a Forge product as evidence that tabletop RPGs are not games.

Quote from: StuartI don't think there's really any debate. That doesn't mean the players have to play competitively against each other.  They can play competitively against the system of the game.  They can even play collaboratively against the system -- but there's still competition in that respect.  If there's no competition against ANYTHING, then it's not a game.

Yes, my next question would have been to ask how co-op board games such as Arkham Horror fit into that defnition, or any non-multiplayer computer games, for that matter. "Competition" is a word I'd usually associate with trying to triumph over other persons or groups rather than some more abstract opposition.

Out of curiosity, for those of you playing LARPs in Europe / UK that are NOT based on commercial products, as articulated in this quote:

QuoteThere are commercial larp products. "Minds Eye Theatre" and "Cthulhu live!" are larp versions of popular roleplaying game products. They are sold as rulebooks, books of advice, and scenarios (ready-to-play larps). Their being tied-in with the original products and their publishers fear of liability have led to these systems being extremely heavy on impractical rules, and many people allready familiar with an independent larp tradition scorn them as the plague. "Host your own murder mystery" books are also commercial larps, aimed for the market of burgeoise adults who seek to spice up their dinner parties with some roleplaying.

...for those players -- what IS the challenge of the game, and what is the reward?

Quote from: StuartOut of curiosity, for those of you playing LARPs in Europe / UK that are NOT based on commercial products, as articulated in this quote:

...for those players -- what IS the challenge of the game, and what is the reward?

That depends on the nature of the LARP and the goals of your character, of course, just as in any RPG. It might range from simply surviving through the night while monsters roam the dark hallways to convincing the bureaucrats to grant you political asylum to assassinating an entire noble family without being caught.

Quote from: StuartThen it sounds like every single LARP you've attended would be a game, and thus, a Roleplaying game.  But if you can accept that there are non-game LARPs, either:
1) Those "art LARPs" are not LARPs; or
2) Not all LARPs are games.

Would you at least concede - given the arguments presented in this thread - that most LARPs ARE games, just as most tabletop roleplaying thingummies are games?

PS: Interesting corollary: I hear tell that some of the Scandanavian LARPs push the "art LARP" story solely to get funding for their activities from their nation's equivalent of the Arts Council. As such, I suspect you'll find that if you sift past the fluff most "art LARPs" will have game elements, even if it's on the level of saying "here is your pregenerated character, here are your character's goals, talk to one of the organisers if you want to do anything more complex than talking to people and we'll decide if it works".

I mean really specifically.  At the last LARP you were at, what was the actual challenge of the gameplay -- not the setting or back story -- the game you were playing, what was the challenge, and reward for overcoming that challenge?  Is the reward you receive based on your ability to overcome the challenge, or do all players get the reward regardless of their general effort / ability?

No snark.  An honest question.

Quote from: Stuart...for those players -- what IS the challenge of the game, and what is the reward?

The challenge is using negotiation, diplomacy, treachery, and whatever resources and abilities the system gives you to get what you want out of the other players, any NPCs played by the GMs, and the setting.

The reward would be achieving your character's IC goals (which might be brewed up by the GM if the game uses pregenerated characters, or could have been decided by you at game start, or could be something you come up with partway through the game), just like every other RPG. Most of the games tend to be one-shots and hence lack an XP system, but multi-session campaigns do exist - in this case, the reward of success would be getting out of problems you began the game with, or increasing your character's IC resources/power/influence.

Quote from: WarthurPS: Interesting corollary: I hear tell that some of the Scandanavian LARPs push the "art LARP" story solely to get funding for their activities from their nation's equivalent of the Arts Council.

'Tis Nordic, properly, not Scandinavian... And yes, major LARP events are eligible for goverment grants and other forms of financial support. Whether those occasions could also be called "games" is incidental.

Quote from: StuartI mean really specifically.  At the last LARP you were at, what was the actual challenge of the gameplay -- not the setting or back story -- the game you were playing, what was the challenge, and reward for overcoming that challenge?  Is the reward you receive based on your ability to overcome the challenge, or do all players get the reward regardless of their general effort / ability?

No snark.  An honest question.

Was "Not with a Whimper" the last LARP I played?  It's certainly the last one I remember, so I'll tell you about that one.  Here's the goal:  Go out.  Kill the fuckin' orcses (and werewolves ... oh God, the werewolves ... lycanthropy was extremely contagious in that game).  Figure out what the weakness of the demon-lord leading the army was.  Kill him fuckin' dead.

Then, of course, we had this whole snafu with the legendary heroes that we'd awoken as allies ... turns out they had all manner of interpersonal troubles, and this and that ... but generally the idea was "Kill the bad guys."

And hell yeah it depended upon effort and ability.  Our team had been drilling on combat maneuvers and sword-and-shield tactics for weeks before the session, and we rocked!  One of our members (one guy!) racked up more than one hundred face-to-face kills in a 48-hour game.  Plus, we had a paladin-heavy team build, so we had healing mana coming out our magical ... ahem ... orifices.  In a game where TPKs for at least three of the eight parties was the GM's stated goal, we held the line and provided healing and ressurrects (ever been called upon to ressurect a party of eight corpses?  We were, and did) that brought all eight teams hale and healthy to the final battle (substantially unbalancing it in favor of goodness!)  We rocked!

Quote from: StuartAt the last LARP you were at, what was the actual challenge of the gameplay -- not the setting or back story -- the game you were playing, what was the challenge, and reward for overcoming that challenge?

My character (a wandering and half-mad storyteller who had arrived to the coronation feast of the new High King to investigate the murder of his twin brother) got his revenge and lived, by sneaking out of the castle just before everyone else except for two others died at the claws of Grendel. And none of that ending was planned in advance...

QuoteWould you at least concede - given the arguments presented in this thread - that most LARPs ARE games, just as most tabletop roleplaying thingummies are games?

Yes, I'll concede that. Which leads us into thinking about which tabletop roleplaying thingummies are really games. :)

I think the Foam-Weapon combat aspect of LARPs seems like a game.

Quote from: GrimGentThe reward would be achieving your character's IC goals (which might be brewed up by the GM if the game uses pregenerated characters, or could have been decided by you at game start, or could be something you come up with partway through the game), just like every other RPG.

I think that's over generalizing.  Coming up with a challenge/goal/rules/reward halfway through a game is not consistent with all RPGs.

In fact, if the event (Live Action or Tabletop) doesn't provide you with the challenge/goal/rules/reward but rather a "Virtual World" in which you can choose your own -- it's not a game in and of itself.  It's an environment in which games can take place.

If it's a game -- you'd want to make it clear to the players what the challenge is, what the rules are, and what reward they get for overcoming that challenge.  Before the game even starts.

If it's an environment -- you want to offer good support to the GM and players in how to construct actual games within that environment.

That many "Roleplaying Games" are more environments or toolkits, with less than adequate support for new players and GMs to quickly develop solid *games* within that environment is, I think, at least one of a few major factors in RPGs being a niche hobby, compared to something more mainstream like boardgames.

Ahem... I think you'll find that you are quoting Warthur there, not me.

Quote from: StuartI think the Foam-Weapon combat aspect of LARPs seems like a game.

But not nearly every LARP uses boffers, and even then the mechanics for how the damage dealt to the characters during combat is handled vary wildly.

Quote from: StuartIn fact, if the event (Live Action or Tabletop) doesn't provide you with the challenge/goal/rules/reward but rather a "Virtual World" in which you can choose your own -- it's not a game in and of itself.  It's an environment in which games can take place.

So basically, you are dismissing Simulationism as a valid playstyle for roleplaying games?

QuoteSo basically, you are dismissing Simulationism as a valid playstyle for roleplaying games?

I'm dismissing the entire GNS theory completely.

Quote from: StuartI'm dismissing the entire GNS theory completely.

And if the PCs start out in a more or less static situation, and all the conflicts and challenges are subsequently generated by whatever pursuits they choose to engage in, naturally and without prior arrangements... that's not a game?

Quote from: StuartI mean really specifically.  At the last LARP you were at, what was the actual challenge of the gameplay -- not the setting or back story -- the game you were playing, what was the challenge, and reward for overcoming that challenge?  Is the reward you receive based on your ability to overcome the challenge, or do all players get the reward regardless of their general effort / ability?

The current LARP I am active in is Legacy (http://www.legacy-empire.org.uk), run under the auspices of Oxford university's RPG society.

My character has his own goals which he has been steadily working towards throughout the game, but in the most recent session I spent most of my time convincing others to help me go and catch the person responsible for murdering me (it's an odd sort of game) - once I've done that, I'll have dealt with my "Murdered" quirk, a negative thing I bought at character creation so that I could begin the game with more resources, so my reward will be I have a) achieved the IC goal of catching the guy and b) worked off the -1 point flaw I'd bought, making my character more powerful simply by virtue of no longer having the murders as a distraction.

And hell no, not every player gets reward regardless of their efforts. If you screw up, you screw up, if you get betrayed horribly you get betrayed horribly.

QuoteAnd if the PCs start out in a more or less static situation, and all the conflicts and challenges are subsequently generated by whatever pursuits they choose to engage in, naturally and without prior arrangements... that's not a game?

Let's say you and I dress up as vikings and go stand in the middle of a field.

Is that a game?

I think that's the potential for a game, but it's not a game in and of itself.

QuoteAnd hell no, not every player gets reward regardless of their efforts. If you screw up, you screw up, if you get betrayed horribly you get betrayed horribly.

But what does that actually MEAN?  If the reward is a fun narrative, is "screwing up" worse than succeeding?

I guess what I mean is, in some LARPs and some tabletop games I think the implied challenge is being creative, improvising, and staying in character.

However, sometimes you get rewarded consistently regardless of whatever you do in those areas.  And sometimes you get rewarded MORE for doing something else.

This is the heart of the complaint against Vampire.  You would think you would be rewarded for success at one set of challenges, but in fact you're rewarded for success at another.

Quote from: StuartLet's say you and I dress up as vikings and go stand in the middle of a field.

Is that a game?

That depends on the context of why we are there. If we have been left on sentry duty while the other vikings raid a nearby village, and we are keeping an eye for the enemy horde which might appear over the hills at any time, then yes, even if there's no other activity going on, it's still part of the game. (Or if we have been stranded on strange shores after the longboat was wrecked on the reef ,and we now have no idea where to go from there...)

Quote from: StuartI guess what I mean is, in some LARPs and some tabletop games I think the implied challenge is being creative, improvising, and staying in character.

The implied challenge in most freeforms I've participated in boils down to diplomacy and talking to people: convincing others that they should support you, and not others, keeping secrets from your enemies, getting information to your friends, that kind of thing.

QuoteThat depends on the context of why we are there. If we have been left on sentry duty while the other vikings raid a nearby village, and we are keeping an eye for the enemy horde which might appear over the hills at any time, then yes, even if there's no other activity going on, it's still part of the game.

Yes, if you add challenge and reward it becomes a game.

I'm guessing you're implying that the game is -- defend the base from the enemy horde.  If there isn't *really* an enemy horde... it's not *really* a game.  Just a setting.

If you and I dress up like Vikings, and instead of standing in a field are standing in a Viking encampment with tents, and vendors, and singing and people practicing in combat.

Is that a game?  Still no.  It's still the potential for a game.

In that setting we could make up games where we:
* Try to roleplay the best Viking
* Tell the best epic Viking poems
* Drink the other Viking under the table

Those are all games.  People at this LARP are usually playing some sort of game.  A few are just chatting with friends wearing costumes.  Those playing a game might not be playing the same game as all the other people, or even ANY of the other people there.  This Viking LARP itself is not a game.  It's a Roleplaying event where Roleplaying Games take place.

QuoteThe implied challenge in most freeforms I've participated in boils down to diplomacy and talking to people: convincing others that they should support you, and not others, keeping secrets from your enemies, getting information to your friends, that kind of thing.

In this way, those LARPs would be very much like the game Diplomacy (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/483).  The players engaged in this activity would certainly be playing a game.

Quote from: StuartYes, if you add challenge and reward it becomes a game.

The potential challenges are implicit in the situation and the characters. You simply cannot have a character without that potential. If you are just a guy in a viking hat, standing around and chatting about last night's episode of Lost, then you are not in the game, at least at the moment. You are not even in character, and there might be a special sign for you to wear so that everyone knows it. But if you are walking through that encampment in pursuit of some IC goal, no matter whether that goal has been assigned by another or chosen by yourself, then you are undeniably taking part in the game. And the general assumption is that you will be in character unless somehow otherwise indicated.

QuoteThe potential challenges are implicit in the situation and the characters. You simply cannot have a character without that potential. If you are just a guy in a viking hat, standing around and chatting about last night's episode of Lost, then you are not in the game, at least at the moment. You are not even in character, and there might be a special sign for you to wear so that everyone knows it. But if you are walking through that encampment in pursuit of some IC goal, no matter whether that goal has been assigned by another or chosen by yourself, then you are undeniably taking part in the game. And the general assumption is that you will be in character unless somehow otherwise indicated.

If you would include this in your definition of game, you would also include two children playing cowboys and indians.

I'm not trying to suggest that a LARP has no value.  I'm not even trying to convince you not to call it or think of it as a game.

However, when thinking of games as defined in the article I wrote, and in the challenge / goal / rules / reward definition I gave earlier.  All LARP events are not games.  They are an environment for games.  So too are many tabletop games, I think.

Quote from: StuartIf you would include this in your definition of game, you would also include two children playing cowboys and indians.

You are forgetting one vital difference: the rules for determining whether the Cowboys overcome the Indians or vice versa. The children won't have those, unlike LARP.

(And I should probably mention that in Finnish, LARPs are called games.)

make. it. fucking. stop.

Quote from: Aosmake. it. fucking. stop.

See, now that's why we need the rules. How else would you know whether it stops or not?

To clarify: without the rules and the in-character involvement, what you are describing simply isn't a LARP. It's a theme party with costumes.

Quote from: GrimGentSee, now that's why we need the rules. How else would you know whether it stops or not?

Yeah, a Duel of Wits mechanic would be useful here.

Quote from: droogYeah, a Duel of Wits mechanic would be useful here.

...The list of smartass remarks made available by this statement is actually rather astonishing.

Happy to be of service.