I have read lots of pretty dry history books on trade and currency in the ancient and medieval world, and I still dont feel I could comfortably simulate a real world historical economy. For me, I am fine with the game keeping that stuff simple. In a given group, I may have a single player who places much value on that, but the rest tend to get annoyed if we are overly detailed or worried about the history. Still my hat is off to anyone who puts in the time to hash this out int heir campaign.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;633516I have read lots of pretty dry history books on trade and currency in the ancient and medieval world, and I still dont feel I could comfortably simulate a real world historical economy. For me, I am fine with the game keeping that stuff simple. In a given group, I may have a single player who places much value on that, but the rest tend to get annoyed if we are overly detailed or worried about the history. Still my hat is off to anyone who puts in the time to hash this out int heir campaign.

I don't think you have to go all complex and/or realistic just to have something different than the pattern of mounds of coins along with pages and pages of price lists.  For example, here is the system I used for my Vinland game:

http://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/vinland/rules/wealth.html

Everyone automatically had gear appropriate for their station.  If they wanted something different, it'd just be eyeballed.  Everyone tracked their wealth level with decimals (like 4.5), and I'd bump them up a few or bump them down a few for significant events.  A successful raid would bump them up a few, for example.

Quote from: The Traveller;633509Oh yeah sure I was responding to one particular post there, if people want to play D&D more power to them.

For myself I just don't hand out so much fungible currency, financial rewards might be coinage but more often might be bales of semi precious cloth, statues valuable only to a particular noble house (after you've explained why they should pay for something rightfully theirs), well preserved books (worth a bit prior to the invention of the printing press), livestock and so on.

Currency and gems etc are there but they wouldn't be lying about at the bottom of your average abandoned mine. This creates opportunity for adventure and limitations on the actual amount of wealth the group can haul about at any given point simultaneously, while allowing the emulation of a reasonable pre-industrial economy.

"Treasure" in the D&D sense would reputedly exist more in remote and very dangerous locations, usually needing quite an expedition to claim, as per The Hobbit, or more readily in some nobleman's house under heavy guard as per Conan. Looting settlements is also a time honoured method of gaining lots of jingly coins in a hurry, well-off human ones anyway, much like the real world - a good rule of thumb is if you want riches, go rob some rich people, see also the crusades and that little jaunt which took place prior to the Battle of Agincourt. Starveling goblin camps aren't good for much more than nicking your blade.

Of course in my game system (ARR) skills are advanced by using them, and less tangible advancements come about by completing character, group, or campaign goals. Puzzling out the normalisation of an economy where the currency is also the means of advancement in every sense, phew, well.

Yeah, one of the reasons I bailed from a lot of trad systems was the issues with the economy vs class vs magic (I loved the first section of the old Goblins comic when they were protecting the chest full of treasure they did not use....classic).  
My main system is more like yours, where skills are learned by using them.  However, esoteric skills, especially when you have to learn skills, are not cheap.  Nor is magic.

So you need to make sure that the economy works, and even the presence of the cash flow makes sense.  Banking has existed for a while, and most of the PCs use writs of worth covered by banks...but finding old stuff is a big deal.
Hell, my poor Steel ISle group has been hauling out statuary out of a certain sets of Ruin for some 160 sessions.

Well, I think I'm going to find it interesting running something like DCC, where treasure is completely removed from experience.I may even have it set up as a mostly primitive barter economy.

RPGPundit

I respectfully disagree with the notion that a fantasy economy cannot realistically have adventurers who earn large amounts of wealth by looting.

Entire kingdoms and empires were founded on looting. The Roman Empire was a plunder-based economy. So were the Hun Empire and the Mongol Empire. Or consider the vikings conducting hit-and-run raids on monasteries filled with valuable relics. Scandinavia didn't stop having poor people, farmers, or a middle ages economy during the time period when viking activity peaked.

Historical tombs really were filled with valuable grave goods and these really were targeted by tomb raiders throughout antiquity. The reason King Tut's tomb was such an amazing find is not because of its riches - those were run of the mill for a pharaoh. It was because the riches hadn't been plundered yet after 3,000 years. Somehow the Egyptian economy survived despite the fact that the peasants knew there that the tombs of the wealthy were filled with riches!

Adventurers, raiders, and pirates existed throughout antiquity. Most led sad, short lives. Those that succeeded became nobility. In D&D, the amount of gold that adventurers find is high relative to peasants, but it is not initially that high relative to kings and merchant princes. At the point where PC wealth and loot begins to approach that of the nobility, the PCs should be joining the nobility themselves.

But, yes, you really should change the weight of the coins to 100 per pound. When you do that, 1 copper piece is the equivalent of a Greek copper obolus, Roman copper ass, or English copper farthing. 1 silver piece is equivalent to a Greek drachma, Roman silver denarii, or English silver penny. And 1 gold piece is equivalent to approximately a Roman gold quinarii (half-Aureus) or English shilling (1.2gp per shilling).

For the more mathematically inclined, based on the calculations I made for ACKS:
1. A vague translation into today's currency is 1cp = $1, 1gp = $100. Please do not take this literally; it's relative.
2. The average commoner earns 3gp per month and has assets totaling 70gp (including value of land, livestock, clothing, stored harvest, etc.). This yields an average income of about $10 per day, or about 80 cents per hour; equivalent to a worker in a developing country. 78% of the population is in this range.
3. The average 1st level character earns 25gp per month and has a 770gp net worth. He earns an equivalent of $2,500 per month; comfortably middle class. This would include wealthy yeomen, craftsmen, and so on. About 14% of the population is in this range.
3. The average 2nd level character earns 75gp per month and has a 2,300gp net worth. He earns $7,500 per month, putting him in the upper class. This would include patricians and knights. 5% of the population is in this range.
4. The average 3rd level character earns 150gp per month and has a 4,620gp net worth. About 1% of the population sits here.
5. The combined number of all characters 4th level and above constitutes the remaining 2%. At the high end, they are incredibly wealthy.

When Alexander the Great conquered Susa, he plundered 50,000 gold talents. 1 talent is 60 pounds, meaning 6000 coins. In other words: 300,000,000 gp. That's the scale at which the emperor of the known world thinks.

When Richard the Lion-Hearted was captured, his ransom was 150,000 marks. 1 mark was about 160 silver pennies. 1 silver penny = 1 sp (per my notes above), for a total of 2,400,000 gp. That's the scale at which your realm's king thinks.

So what does the Emperor think when your 7th level party kills a dragon and finds 100,000gp? He'd like to be paid his cut in taxes, and he appreciates your efforts on behalf of the kingdom. But he doesn't get all worked up about it. You didn't "ruin the realm".

Sure, you're in the top 1% of the wealthy. But you already were by the time you got to 4th level. You already could retire and live better than 99% of the population. If you're still adventuring it's because you want temporal power, or you're a thrill junkie, or you're a duty-bound hero-type.

The biggest issue I see with fantasy economics is that they assume gold is the only commodity. In truth, it should be soft commodities like foodstuffs. Hard commodities like copper and gold, while important, shouldn't wholly drive the economic model.

There is a simple change any enterprising GM can make. You don't have to emulate a real-world economy, delve deep into medieval economics or even do a lot of reading to assimilate a vastly-improved model. Simply pick up Grain Into Gold. There are numerous charts in the back of the book for both mundane and fantastic goods. From there, you can make educated decisions how to derive the price of items and services not covered.

Quote from: amacris;6340931. A vague translation into today's currency is 1cp = $1, 1gp = $100. Please do not take this literally; it's relative.
2. The average commoner earns 3gp per month and has assets totaling 70gp (including value of land, livestock, clothing, stored harvest, etc.). This yields an average income of about $10 per day, or about 80 cents per hour; equivalent to a worker in a developing country. 78% of the population is in this range.
3. The average 1st level character earns 25gp per month and has a 770gp net worth. He earns an equivalent of $2,500 per month; comfortably middle class. This would include wealthy yeomen, craftsmen, and so on. About 14% of the population is in this range.
3. The average 2nd level character earns 75gp per month and has a 2,300gp net worth. He earns $7,500 per month, putting him in the upper class. This would include patricians and knights. 5% of the population is in this range.
4. The average 3rd level character earns 150gp per month and has a 4,620gp net worth. About 1% of the population sits here.
5. The combined number of all characters 4th level and above constitutes the remaining 2%. At the high end, they are incredibly wealthy.

This is a well reasoned post and to be honest I've changed my mind as a result, advancement-by-money type game economies are not neccessarily prone to massive inflation and the resultant social turmoil.

Quote from: K Peterson;633502Bob shares this information with you and some other coworkers. How long would it take before someone took a gamble to get some of that treasure, himself? If that 5 grand represented 6 months of your regular salary at Mickey-D's. If the only obstacle to that 'treasure' were the 'monsters' that resided in the tunnels.

This is a narrative issue, and different settings deal with it in different ways.  The biggest gap in your analogy is that you're assuming those 'gang member tunnels' exist in a relatively safe urban area.  In the fantasy world, they really don't.  Those tunnels are a constant threat to the livelihood of the nearby citizens, and people frequently die because they haven't been cleared.  Many stories don't deal with this aspect, but a lot do.  E.g. some of the treasure you find is on the rotting body of one of your peers.

In your example, Ricky should come over from the drive-up window and tell Bob about his cousin Louise who tried it.  He only went in there because the gang bangers killed his fiance Maria.  Nobody has seen him since, and the cops refuse to go looking for him.  (With a hook saying if you find Louise's so-and-so and return it to the family, they'd hook you up with something.)

They're still there because they are deadly.

Now, there's a whole separate discussion to be had around what happens when you start adjusting the default assumption around the number of available adventurers...

Quote from: amacris;634093The reason King Tut's tomb was such an amazing find is not because of its riches - those were run of the mill for a pharaoh. It was because the riches hadn't been plundered yet after 3,000 years. Somehow the Egyptian economy survived despite the fact that the peasants knew there that the tombs of the wealthy were filled with riches!

Yes, very this.  All that gold came from somewhere, and all that gold went somewhere from those other tombs that were plundered successfully.

I'd also underscore that Tut's tomb was thought to be deadly (specifically cursed), as above.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;634131The biggest issue I see with fantasy economics is that they assume gold is the only commodity. In truth, it should be soft commodities like foodstuffs. Hard commodities like copper and gold, while important, shouldn't wholly drive the economic model.

This isn't how we did it, and from the blue book on, land and castle became the biggest weath mechanism.  I also nixed the thousands of coins concept, for all but dragons, from the very start.  Lots of gems, statues, etc, instead.

And let's not forget magic items...

Quote from: amacris;634093Sure, you're in the top 1% of the wealthy. But you already were by the time you got to 4th level. You already could retire and live better than 99% of the population. If you're still adventuring it's because you want temporal power, or you're a thrill junkie, or you're a duty-bound hero-type.

A couple of comments here. I have punted my economics to using what is detailed in Harn. N Robin Crossby and the rest of the Harn crew devote far more time than I could into making a economic system that hangs together. An for those who are not familiar with it is a silver based system with gold coins being rare.

My experience is that it works fine with the loot based mentality of D&D like Amacris points the sums kings, nobles, and even minor manor nobles deal with pale in comparison to the richest hordes. While the lowest rungs of nobles may be cash poor, the value of goods they deal with on a yearly basis is in thousands of silvers. Multiply that by the dozens or hundreds of holding of the greater lords. 100,000 GP is quickly exhausted by building a few holdings.

In my Majestic Wilderlands the plundered hordes generally represents only the starting point of what the character build on later in the campaign.

In my most recent campaign the player are just starting to build an inn and have quickly exhausted their 32,000 silver.

The idea that a "fantasy economy can't hold up to massive amounts of treasure" depends on just how much that economy looks like Europe in the middle-ages.  

RPGPundit

One word - Inflation.

Fundamentally, at the table, this is all effects based right?  You take the situation at hand and figure out the results and present the new situation.  You don't need to be simulating an economy in the background.  You only need to worry about it when you actually want to worry about it.

I understand that getting the feel of a medeival economy is important to a lot of people, apparently, but it seems like something that you should be able to deal with with a simple ruling in the moment, unless play actually ends up being about acting in the economy.  Then you may need something more robust, but still maybe not.

Quote from: K Peterson;633502Yes, but that's a bit of a weird analogy compared to what DCC suggests. That's akin to a peasant/townsfolk sneaking into a lord's castle, thieving some valuables, and then fleeing to another land.

(...)

But he barely made it out of there, because some gang members hang out down there who won't hesitate to murder or maim trespassers on their turf. (This analogy's getting a bit silly but you get where I'm going with this).

So, just to be clear here, you think that everyone at McDonald's is likely to quit their job as soon as they figure out that all their problems could be solved by stealing money from drug dealers?

Seems doubtful. I mean, they could do that tomorrow. But I'm guessing there'll still be somewhere there to take my drive-thru order tomorrow.

Historically, however, there have been periods where this sort of thing did happen. For example, the Norman conquest of Italy can make for very interesting reading for those looking to run OD&D. (The Norman Centuries podcast is really nice for more detail on this.) But even during those periods of time, there were still plenty of people back in Normandy tending the farms.

As others have previously pointed out, the typical D&D adventure is high-risk and requires a lot of investment capital.

In OD&D, for example, a heavy footman makes 36 gp per year. The average D&D adventurer starts with 100 gp (virtually all of which will be spent on their gear). So, basically, three years of salary. If we equate the heavy footman to a minimum wage salary in the modern world, Bob's proposal looks a little different: "I think there's more down there. Here's what you need to do: Get $50,000 and spend it on equipment. Then we can go back in there and strike it rich. I mean you'll probably die, but it's worth the risk, right?"

Quote from: Justin Alexander;634726In OD&D, for example, a heavy footman makes 36 gp per year. The average D&D adventurer starts with 100 gp (virtually all of which will be spent on their gear). So, basically, three years of salary. If we equate the heavy footman to a minimum wage salary in the modern world, Bob's proposal looks a little different: "I think there's more down there. Here's what you need to do: Get $50,000 and spend it on equipment. Then we can go back in there and strike it rich. I mean you'll probably die, but it's worth the risk, right?"

But you are equating 2 things that don't equate

The D&D economy is broken the starting money for PCs is equally broken and so are mercenary wages.

So your point is somewhat moot.

You can either struggle to make a 'medieval' economy, factoring in the effect of magic and the economic impact of adventurers.

Or you can try to roughly mirror a modern ecomony, based on the premise that at least its real and all your players are familiar with it.

I prefer the later becuase its easier.

A real medieval economy - http://www.luminarium.org/medlit/medprice.htm

in 1346 an english bowman earned 3d a day - ie 3 copper in British curreny 12 copper pennies to a silver schilling - 20 schillings to a pound  (240cp = 20sp = 1gp)  = 91sp per year
A knight with his horse and armour charged 4 schillings  = 73gp


However unlike the price lists in D&D which are at best bollocks and at worst used to limit power (An Enlish bowman would make his own bow and arrows and would not pay 60gp for a longbow) can be ignored.

Examples

Wine - best Gascon Red in London - 4pence a Gallon
Masons tool  - 3 pence
Spinning wheel - 10 pence
War Horse - UPTO 80 pounds - typical knights warhorse 10 pounds
draught horse - 10 - 20 schillings
To build a stone gate house - 30 pounds

Suit of Chainmail 100 schillings
Plate armour c 9 pounds
Cheap sword - 6 pence

You can look on the list for more detail

So to kit a guy to adventure would not cost 3 years salary ...probably

My point is that the Pcs are familiar with prices today. Why break the role play and make everyone have to reference a list and compare to average earnings to work out prices. Easier just to say 1USD = 1cp (or 1 sp it matters not) and work out all your prices in modern terms.

In which case an adventurere would need to spend about $2000 to get a mail shirt, a decect Axe, tools, helmet, backpack, rolpe etc etc ...
Basing your economy on a modern day one is just far easier because it stays out of the way and all the players get it immediately.

Uh, the idea of debt, credit, allegiance, leverage, and favors (boons), et al. is as old as history. GP is an abstraction, even Gygax and Cook wrote noting it so. How is anyone confusing themselves?

Surely no one here is assuming NPC people are walking around paying everything in precious metals and waiting years to amass X amount under their matress to actually DO anything. Well, maybe if the setting is designed around that weird conceit, but still... To think when the game talks about taxation all over PHB and DMG that the foundational rest of such a conceptual framework disappears is rather odd. The details may differ, but humanity has never been all that different.