TheRPGSite

So... which do you think deserve it, which don't? Any blatant nepotism? Forgist influences?

Here's the list:

QuoteBest Fan Site
Dragonlance Nexus
Liber Fanatica
Modus Operandi
Plane Walker
Treasure Tables
Honorable Mention: Flames Rising


Best Podcast
Fear the Boot
Have Games, Will Travel
Godzilla Gaming
Sons of Kryos
Yog Sothoth Radio
Honorable Mention: Pulp Gamer


Best Cover Art
Dawning Star: Helios Rising, Blue Devil Games
Hollow Earth Expedition, Exile Games
Faery's Tale, Firefly Games
Lacuna Part 1, Memento Mori
Five Fingers: Port of Deceit, Privateer Press
Honorable Mention: Mutants & Masterminds: Ultimate Power, Green Ronin



Best Interior Art
Qin, 7ème Cercle
Warlords of the Accordlands series, AEG
Children of the Horned Rat, Black Industries
Burning Empires, Burning Wheel
Mutants & Masterminds: Ultimate Power, Green Ronin
Honorable Mention: Hollow Earth Expedition, Exile Game Studio

Best Cartography
Warlords of the Accordlands: Monsters & Lairs, AEG
Warhammer Fantasy RolePlay: Game Master's Toolkit, Black Industries
DCC 35: Gazetteer of the Known Realms, Goodman Games
Ptolus- City by the Spire, Malhavoc Press/White Wolf Publishing
Five Fingers: Port of Deceit, Privateer Press
Honorable Mention: Campaign Cartographer 3, ProFantasy Software


Best Production Values
Qin, 7ème Cercle
Burning Empires, Burning Wheel
Mutants & Masterminds: Ultimate Power, Green Ronin Publishing
Ptolus: Malhavoc Press/White Wolf Publishing
Tales of the Caliphate Nights, Paradigm Concepts
Honorable Mention: Knightly Orders of Ansalon

Best Writing
Qin, 7ème Cercle
Children of the Horned Rat, Black Industries
Hollow Earth Expedition, Exile Game Studio
Dictionary of Mu, Paka's Thread Games
Five Fingers: Port of Deceit, Privateer Press
Honorable Mention: Scion: Hero, White Wolf Publishing

Best Rules
Qin, 7ème Cercle
Spirit of the Century, Evil Hat Games
Faery's Tale, Firefly Games
Mutants & Masterminds: Ultimate Power, Green Ronin Publishing
Esoterrorists, Pelgrane Press
Honorable Mention: Warhammer Fantasy RolePlay: Companion

Best Supplement
Warhammer Fantasy RolePlay: Companion, Black Industries
Street Magic, FanPro
Etherscope: Upload: Etherpunk, Goodman Games
Mutants & Masterminds: Ultimate Power, Green Ronin Publishing
Thrilling Places, Hero Games
Honorable Mention: Tome of Corruption, Black Industries

Best Setting
Warlords of the Accordlands series, AEG
Dawning Star: Helios Rising, Blue Devil Games
DCC 35: Gazetteer of the Known Realms, Goodman Games
Ptolus- City by the Spire, Malhavoc Press/White Wolf Publishing
Five Fingers: Port of Deceit, Privateer Press
Honorable Mention: Thrilling Places, Hero Games

Best Adventure
Warhammer Fantasy RolePlay: Lure of the Liche Lord, Black Industries
DCC 34: Cage of Delrium, Goodman Games w. Midnight Syndicate
Xcrawl: Coney Island Crawl, Goodman Games
Time of Vengeance, Green Ronin
Thrilling Places, Hero Games
Honorable Mention: Dungeon Magazine: Age of Worms Ad. Path, Paizo Publishing

Best Miniatue Product
The Deluxe Galleon, Dragonfire Laser Crafts
Modern Floorplans: All Saints Church, Fabled Environments
E-Z Dungeons, Fat Dragon Games
Conflict Chips
Game Mastery: Flip-mat Tavern, Paizo Publishing
Honorable Mention: Hordes Line's Lord of the Feast, Privateer Press

Best Regalia
Liber Chaotica, Black Industries
Witch Hunter's Handbook, Black Industries
Classic Battletech Total Warfare, FanPro
Order of the Stick: No Cure for the Paladin Blues, Giant in the Playground
Art of Dragon Magazine, Paizo Publishing
Honorable Mention: Astounding Hero Tales, Hero Games

Best Aid/Accessory
Deck of Many Things, Green Ronin Publishing
Hero Lab, Lone Wolf Development
GameMastery Combat Pad, Open Mind Games/Paizo Publishing
Game Mastery: Critical Hit Deck, Paizo Publishing
Promethean: Storyteller Screen, White Wolf Publishing
Honorable Mention: Campaign Cartographer 3, ProFantasy Software

Best Electronic Book
Frontier Towns: Fort Griffin #3, Dog House Rules
Magical Medieval Society: European Warfare, Expeditious Retreat Press
Nevermore Gazetteer, Expeditious Retreat Press
Classic Battletech Free Package, FanPro
Castle Shadowcrag, Open Design
Honorable Mention: Kitsunemori, Dog Soul Publishing

Best Free Product
Black Industries Web Site, Black Industries
Six-Guns: Lawmen- Earps and Mastersons, Dog House Rules
Nevermore Gazetteer, Expeditious Retreat Press
Classic Battletech Free Package, FanPro
Savage Tide Player's Guide, Paizo Publishing
Honorable Mention: Scion: Hero- Of Shadows Yet to Come, White Wolf Publishing

Best d20/OGL
Warlords of the Accordlands series, AEG
Dawning Star: Helios Rising, Blue Devil Games
Etherscope-Upload: Etherpunk, Goodman Games
Mutants & Masterminds: Ultimate Power, Green Ronin Publishing
Five Fingers: Port of Deceit, Privateer Press
Honorable Mention: Ptolus- City by the Spire, Malhavoc Press/White Wolf Publishing


Best Game
Qin, 7ème Cercle
Conspiracy X 2E, Eden Studios
Hollow Earth Expedition, Exile Game Studio
Faery's Tale, Firefly Games
Scion: Hero, White Wolf Publishing
Honorable Mention: Esoterrorists, Pelgrane Press & Spirit of the Century, Evil Hat Games


Fan's Choice: Best Publisher
Arc Dream
Atlas Games
Atomic Sock Monkey Press
Avenger Enterprises
Black Industries
BTRC
Burning Wheel
Chris Gonnerman
Contested Ground Studios
Creative Mountain Games
Dark Omen Games
Dog Soul
Dragonwing Games
Dreamscarred Press
Evil Hat Productions
Exile Game Studio
Expeditious Retreat Press
Fat Dragon Games
Fiery Dragon Productions
Goodman Games
Green Ronin Publishing
Hero Games
Ironwood Omnimedia Company LLC
Kenzer Co.
Malhavoc Press
Margaret Weis Productions/Sovereign Press
Paizo Publishing
Palladium Books
Paradigm Concepts
Pinnacle Entertainment Group/Great White Games
Precis Intermidia Games
RPG Objects
Ronin Arts
Tabletop Adventures
Troll Lord Games
White Wolf
Wizards of the Coast


Product of the Year
Qin, 7ème Cercle
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay: Children of the Horned Rat
Dawning Star: Helios Rising, Blue Devil Games
The Deluxe Galleon, Dragonfire Laser Crafts
Hollow Earth Expedition, Exile Game Studio
Mutants & Masterminds: Ultimate Power, Green Ronin Publishing
Thrilling Places, Hero Games
Ptolus- City by the Spire, Malhavoc Press/White Wolf Publishing
Dictionary of Mu, Paka's Thread Games
Five Fingers: Port of Deceit, Privateer Press

RPGPundit

So my first question would be, what the fuck is "best regalia"?

RPGPundit

Wow! Liber Fanatica is on the shortlist for best fan site! I'll have to tell the guys (just in case they don't know ;) ). The WFRP Companion is on there too! :win:

Not meant as a "treadcrap" - but do these awards really matter?

 Online is the only place where I have ever seen them discussed.

I've never seen any of the games I sell have a sticker or note that says "Won the Ennies".  We do have packaging on game products that say they won an ORIGINS award some past year, or say that the game was a MENSA select game, or stickers that say it won "Game of the Year" in Germany or Europe.

What the hell qualifies something to be an Ennie nominee or winner?


- Ed C.

To be fair to the Ennies, what other awards really matter? Origins is no different... Not all publishers send in products, so there are many fine products never even considered.

The Best Cover nominees seem like odd choices for the most part.

EDIT: Oh, and cheers to whoever nominated PIG for Fan's Choice: Best Publisher. Yes, I will milk it :D

Woot, Five Fingers!

"Best Regalia
Awarded for the best product which, while it does not complement role playing game play, does enhance the lives of RP gamers. RPG Fiction, RPG Video Games, Videos, RPG Board Games, miniature painting accessories, etc. are all possibilities for entries in this category."

Despite the fact that I agree with many of the nominees, this looks like the beginning of the end for the Ennies. I suspect the forgies are already planning the ballot-stuffing operation as we speak.

Quote from: KoltarNot meant as a "treadcrap" - but do these awards really matter?

If you're nominated then you get to sit and swig drinks (for free!) at a little awards ceremony, and meet other cool people.  The rewards process is a bit interminable, but the company can't be beat.

Oh, and "Blah-blah-nominee" or, even better, "Blah-blah-winner" are nice labels that you can use in your marketing for a while.

Quote from: KoltarWhat the hell qualifies something to be an Ennie nominee or winner?

ENWorld puts out a call for publishers to send them (if I recall correctly) six copies of their work, gratis, to be distributed to the judges.  This apparently pulls in a lot of swag, which is obviously cool for them.  Then the judges pick out the stuff they like the very best, and that makes the list.  After that ... it's popular vote, isn't it?

I wonder if Clash sent in any of his games?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: TonyLBOh, and "Blah-blah-nominee" or, even better, "Blah-blah-winner" are nice labels that you can use in your marketing for a while.

Like this you mean? :D

I'll take it away soon. There's only so much shameless self-promotion i can stomach.

Quote from: One Horse TownLike this you mean? :D

Yep!  Pretty much just like that.  It's nice because it's not your personal opinion ("WFRP Companion will rock your socks off!") it's an external judgment ... folks can presume your bias, but they don't have the info to be certain about the biases of others :D

Well, I mean, its nice, but without some of the larger competitors sending in books, and....well...I don't know.  I guess I'm just less excited about the ENnies this year than  I have been in previous years.  There's some great products on that list, and a few stinkers.  The votes will go to the online community's faves, not necessarily the best product out there.  I think it'd be cool to have entry forms at FLGSs (yeah, I know it'd never work), and see how nominations would come out that way.  I'm betting they'd be way different.

But congrats to the nominees, especially the all-excellent Fan Sites!

Hey, did PiG and Flying Mice not send anything in?  Because, by my records, they have been kicking some serious ass this past year.

Ummm.... aren't the ennies supposed to be mainly for D20 products?  Where are the WOTC books?  It's beyond meaningless without them.  :confused:

Quote from: mhensleyUmmm.... aren't the ennies supposed to be mainly for D20 products?  Where are the WOTC books?  It's beyond meaningless without them.  :confused:

WotC won't participate, for a variety of understandable reasons:  They've already won "First Place" in the marketplace ... why would they actively seek out an opportunity for some other game to say "Beat out WotC's for 1st!"?

Quote from: David RI wonder if Clash sent in any of his games?

Regards,
David R

Sent in Aces in Spades and In Harm's Way.

-clash

Added further: I really don't know why I entered them. FM games just don't appeal to RPGnet or ENWorld denizens, and that's where the judges are from. Besides this, the IHW games are very specific in terms of their genre, yet not Forgey-laser-stuff, so it was a waste of my time before I started. I then caught Master of the Game's posts on tBP about the judging process, and it's appalling - the load these judges are under is insane! - so I had already decided never to enter again. I even offered to withdraw my games from consideration to give the poor guy a little break, but he'd already read them, so that sucked. I had no idea they loaded the judges like that!

-clash

Quote from: Zachary The FirstHey, did PiG and Flying Mice not send anything in?  Because, by my records, they have been kicking some serious ass this past year.

I've got better things to do with my time :)

Quote from: mhensleyUmmm.... aren't the ennies supposed to be mainly for D20 products?

No.

This question comes up every year. You'd think we'd have beaten it into submission by now...

QuoteWhere are the WOTC books?  It's beyond meaningless without them.  :confused:

Wizards has not chosen to participate in recent years. Mearls explained why once, but I've lost track of the post. :(

Quote from: Caesar SlaadWizards has not chosen to participate in recent years. Mearls explained why once, but I've lost track of the post. :(

I think Tony has the right of it. The bragging rights for a one man band if he beat out Wizards would be spectacular.

The nominees are...

uninspiring.

Except the podcast category: Fear the Boot for the win!

Quote from: One Horse TownI think Tony has the right of it.

Yeah, more or less, but I was hoping to get it as from the horse's mouth.

Quote from: KoltarNot meant as a "treadcrap" - but do these awards really matter?

 Online is the only place where I have ever seen them discussed.

I've never seen any of the games I sell have a sticker or note that says "Won the Ennies".

I've seen them. Not stickers, but some publishers who have won have included an ENnies logo on their books. Paradigm and Green Ronin, I think, at times.

The volunteer nature of the ENnies means that they have a bit limited promotion machine.

Quote from: Abyssal MawDespite the fact that I agree with many of the nominees, this looks like the beginning of the end for the Ennies. I suspect the forgies are already planning the ballot-stuffing operation as we speak.

Enworld is hugely and overwhelmingly a d20 / D&D site. No amount of stuffing will change this, unless the d20 fans over there genuinely like a non-d20 game and are willing to vote for it above their mainstream favourites. Based on this, I'd be very surprised if any indie game won.

I'm pretty disapointed that Clash didn't get so much as an honerable mention for IHW or AiS.

Really, I have seen or owned many of the books that nominated and there are a few that I would have dropped in favor or Clash's two. :raise:

Quote from: McrowI'm pretty disapointed that Clash didn't get so much as an honerable mention for IHW or AiS.

Really, I have seen or owned many of the books that nominated and there are a few that I would have dropped in favor or Clash's two. :raise:

Thanks, Mike, Zachary, and David! Master of the Game had very nice things to say about both games on tBP, which totally surprised me, but I knew going in that neither had any chance of being nominated.

-clash

Quote from: PGivertyEnworld is hugely and overwhelmingly a d20 / D&D site. No amount of stuffing will change this, unless the d20 fans over there genuinely like a non-d20 game and are willing to vote for it above their mainstream favourites. Based on this, I'd be very surprised if any indie game won.

Just to be clear, you don't have to be an ENWorld member to vote, though that is where the awareness of the awards is, of course, the highest.

The judging nominations were opened up and both the Forge and RPGnet were invited to participate. Despite this, most judges were still those with a noticeable ENwnorld presence (one actually had more posts at RPGnet than ENworld.) The forge could not swing enough votes to place their own candidates.

When it comes down to it, any awards that is put to a popular vote before the RPG audience at large is going to be harsh to what most would call "indie" games, because these games are, realistically, a niche market.

There were 2 special "judges" categories last year that did not factor in a popular vote. The innovation award was the ENnies' small way (well, beyond the nominations themselves) of recognizing games that fall beneath the public radar.

Quote from: pigames.netEDIT: Oh, and cheers to whoever nominated PIG for Fan's Choice: Best Publisher. Yes, I will milk it :D

:hatsoff:

Too bad that Clash didn't get a nomination, though. :raise:

QuoteNot meant as a "treadcrap" - but do these awards really matter?

From a company's POV, a win (or even a nomination) could mean a spike in sales or consumer awareness.


Hey! Shadowrun, Battletech and Qin got some love! :haw: :cool:

Quote from: Caesar SlaadWhen it comes down to it, any awards that is put to a popular vote before the RPG audience at large is going to be harsh to what most would call "indie" games, because these games are, realistically, a niche market.

Exactly, Ceasar! I think the judges have bent over backward to be fair to small press games.

-clash

Quote from: JongWKToo bad that Clash didn't get a nomination, though. :raise:

Quite right. I didn't even know that there was a fan nomination category since I don't really follow it. Someone happened to point it out to me. Had I known, I would have nominated Clash since he's the man when it comes to historicals.

I'd also have to give props to ICE. I've been dealing with them lately because of my paper minis line (the HARP minis and expect some free figures in their upcoming adventures), and they support their customers well with low-cost PDFs and cool freebies - class act.

Uh...Esoterrorists...really?

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiUh...Esoterrorists...really?

Is it any good? I heard that it was rather stiff in its mechanical approach at rendering mysteries.

I think in this case, it´s totally fair to coordinate voting.
What is good enough for SR4, must be allowed to the Forgers, too.

I´m hoping that they´ll try and fail, for everybody to see. but if they don´t fail: well played.

That´s the rules of the game.

Wow.  On that entire list, I've bought exactly one book (Conspiracy X) and read one other (Esoterrorists).

Apparently, I'm so far removed from the mainstream that I can't even see it over the horizon...

Quote from: pigames.netIs it any good? I heard that it was rather stiff in its mechanical approach at rendering mysteries.

It's not bad. It just didn't rock my world. I didn't read it and say, "This is going to win awards!"

Seanchai

I was just looking at the Best Covers -- all I can say is "what???"

I think this was a really weak year for RPGs. Ptolus was probably the biggest release. If you zipped 10 years into the future, was there anything else released this year that anyone will remember? Hollow Earth Expedition looks great, but I think it's caught in the general decline of the second tier. There simply isn't much traction available in the market.

The only thing I really noticed was Ptolus's absence from the d20 list. I'd be really, really interested in someone trying to explain to me how *any* of the products on that list are better than Ptolus. I'm not even close to seeing it.

WotC doesn't participate because, as others have pointed out, this is a chance for other companies to have the spotlight.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw"Best Regalia
Awarded for the best product which, while it does not complement role playing game play, does enhance the lives of RP gamers. RPG Fiction, RPG Video Games, Videos, RPG Board Games, miniature painting accessories, etc. are all possibilities for entries in this category."

Despite the fact that I agree with many of the nominees, this looks like the beginning of the end for the Ennies. I suspect the forgies are already planning the ballot-stuffing operation as we speak.

To be fair the two Black Libraries (not Black Industries as it states) Warhammer background books, Liber Chaotica and The Witch Hunter's Handbook, are freaking awesome.  Sure they're not technically part of the WFRP line but the info in them can easily provide some great inspiration and information for WFRP games as they are basically giving a hell of a lot of cool detail about the setting of that world.  Heck, whilst it's a sweet book Tome of Corruption (the WFRP chaos supplement) doesn't have anywhere near as much fluff as Liber Chaotica.  Not even close.

Quote from: mearlsIf you zipped 10 years into the future, was there anything else released this year that anyone will remember?

Depends on how long Burning Empires and Spirit of the Century remain "indie" popular (as opposed to "mainstream" popular).

Quote from: pigames.netEDIT: Oh, and cheers to whoever nominated PIG for Fan's Choice: Best Publisher. Yes, I will milk it :D

That was me, and Jong seconded - actually he thought he was nominating you, but he missed my nomination. :D

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceThat was me, and Jong seconded - actually he thought he was nominating you, but he missed my nomination. :D

It's starting to seem a little incestuous around here :)

Quote from: mearlsI think this was a really weak year for RPGs. Ptolus was probably the biggest release. If you zipped 10 years into the future, was there anything else released this year that anyone will remember? Hollow Earth Expedition looks great, but I think it's caught in the general decline of the second tier. There simply isn't much traction available in the market.

The only thing I really noticed was Ptolus's absence from the d20 list. I'd be really, really interested in someone trying to explain to me how *any* of the products on that list are better than Ptolus. I'm not even close to seeing it.

WotC doesn't participate because, as others have pointed out, this is a chance for other companies to have the spotlight.

I wonder if there wasn't some backlash from the last years awards "shackled city snafu" and they were stearing clear of a similar problem?

Just have to say I love your new avatar, Sett! Awesome! :D

This has been a public service announcement by Flying Mice games. We now return to your regularly scheduled rants! :P

-clash

Quote from: SeanchaiIt's not bad. It just didn't rock my world. I didn't read it and say, "This is going to win awards!"

Seanchai

Esoterrorists? It doesn't read that well, but in actual play I really enjoyed it.

And thanks for the kind words, Brett and Jong! Very kind of you! :D

-clash

Quote from: pigames.netIs it any good? I heard that it was rather stiff in its mechanical approach at rendering mysteries.

You could always check out my detailed review (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12716.phtml). :D

I was also a little surprised to see it up for an award, but then I didn't find the idea of "just give the players the damn clues" to be enough to make a product.

Quote from: mearlsI think this was a really weak year for RPGs. Ptolus was probably the biggest release. If you zipped 10 years into the future, was there anything else released this year that anyone will remember? Hollow Earth Expedition looks great, but I think it's caught in the general decline of the second tier. There simply isn't much traction available in the market.

(shrug) Posterity will tell its own tales. I think the pace of new games has been more placid, but I personally don't think the quality of the market has suffered for it. Indeed, Burning Empires and Spirit of the Century were the first non-d20 games to catch my attention since, well, d20.

Quote from: McrowI wonder if there wasn't some backlash from the last years awards "shackled city snafu" and they were stearing clear of a similar problem?

It would be really, really depressing if that was it. Giving awards to a deserving book is a terrible reason to NOT give awards to another deserving book, and instead give them to inferior works.

Quote from: pigames.netIt's starting to seem a little incestuous around here :)

Well, we're fans! :D

-clash

Quote from: mearlsIt would be really, really depressing if that was it. Giving awards to a deserving book is a terrible reason to NOT give awards to another deserving book, and instead give them to inferior works.

Sadly, I think the Shackled City thing from last year kept Ptolus from being nominated as many times. IMO, Ptolus is the best example of quality in multiple catagories.

Quote from: McrowI wonder if there wasn't some backlash from the last years awards "shackled city snafu" and they were stearing clear of a similar problem?

Knowing the personalities of some of the judges, I sort of doubt it.

Quote from: PGivertyEsoterrorists? It doesn't read that well, but in actual play I really enjoyed it.

Yeah, everybody says that. Thing is, in actual play, it's no longer the game I purchased.

Seanchai

Quote from: flyingmiceJust have to say I love your new avatar, Sett! Awesome! :D

This has been a public service announcement by Flying Mice games. We now return to your regularly scheduled rants! :P

-clash

Thanks I swiped it from here:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/forgottenfutures/test/rules.htm

It even has stats!

Quote from: C.W.RichesonYou could always check out my detailed review (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12716.phtml). :D

I was also a little surprised to see it up for an award, but then I didn't find the idea of "just give the players the damn clues" to be enough to make a product.

Here's another review (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12778.phtml).

Quote from: SeanchaiYeah, everybody says that. Thing is, in actual play, it's no longer the game I purchased.

Seanchai

I don't understand what this means.

Quote from: PGivertyHere's another review (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12778.phtml).

Who do you believe???

kidding ;)

Maybe I'll get it down the road.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad(shrug) Posterity will tell its own tales. I think the pace of new games has been more placid, but I personally don't think the quality of the market has suffered for it. Indeed, Burning Empires and Spirit of the Century were the first non-d20 games to catch my attention since, well, d20.

Fair enough, and I think those two do have a chance to stand the test of time. But what else out there does?

Sometimes, I wonder if the best gaming award would forgo nominations and categories, and simply say "These are the best gaming products of the year", and rattle off a list from zero to 10. There are years when a supplement for a game makes waves, and others where new games are the big thing.

Quote from: mearlsThe only thing I really noticed was Ptolus's absence from the d20 list. I'd be really, really interested in someone trying to explain to me how *any* of the products on that list are better than Ptolus. I'm not even close to seeing it.

To be honest, I had the same thought.  Maybe my exposure to non-WotC products is too limited, though.

I was glad to see Spirit of the Century getting some love, though I'm unfamiliar with it beyond the (excellent) previews.  I like FATE, though, and the Evil Hat guys seem cool.

-O

QuoteThe only thing I really noticed was Ptolus's absence from the d20 list. I'd be really, really interested in someone trying to explain to me how *any* of the products on that list are better than Ptolus. I'm not even close to seeing it.

Whereas I remain baffled as to what the hell is so great about Ptolus that I'd pay such a hideously steep price for what amounts to an overblown gazeteer of some guy's made up city.  

Who the hell gives a shit about production values if what's actually there is just Rote Overdetailed Setting #235?

I'm sure it's great for the collector guys who pretty much just buy this shit to look pretty on a shelf and show it off to their RPGnet friends, but I didn't see any evidence of actual substance there, or anything I haven't seen waaaay too many times by now.

Quote from: J ArcaneWhereas I remain baffled as to what the hell is so great about Ptolus that I'd pay such a hideously steep price for what amounts to an overblown gazeteer of some guy's made up city.  

I have to agree. I know I'm not part of the mainstream, but it's not even something I'd buy if it was $10.

Quote from: J ArcaneWhereas I remain baffled as to what the hell is so great about Ptolus that I'd pay such a hideously steep price for what amounts to an overblown gazeteer of some guy's made up city.  

Who the hell gives a shit about production values if what's actually there is just Rote Overdetailed Setting #235?

I'm sure it's great for the collector guys who pretty much just buy this shit to look pretty on a shelf and show it off to their RPGnet friends, but I didn't see any evidence of actual substance there, or anything I haven't seen waaaay too many times by now.

agreed...i liked it better in 1977 when it was called "City State of the Invincible Overlord".  :rolleyes:

Quote from: J ArcaneWhereas I remain baffled as to what the hell is so great about Ptolus that I'd pay such a hideously steep price for what amounts to an overblown gazeteer of some guy's made up city.  

Who the hell gives a shit about production values if what's actually there is just Rote Overdetailed Setting #235?

I'm sure it's great for the collector guys who pretty much just buy this shit to look pretty on a shelf and show it off to their RPGnet friends, but I didn't see any evidence of actual substance there, or anything I haven't seen waaaay too many times by now.

I'll go out on a limb and say you're probably not the target audience. :)

I, however, am.  I haven't bought a copy yet simply because the price is so steep in a single chunk.  I'm cool with buying a $30 book here or there (game books are my magazines, so to speak), but shelling out 4x that requires more foresight and planning than I have.

Looking through it, I'm pretty impressed.  It's partly a gazeteer, sure.  It does a lot more, though - it's a detailed complete campaign setting with a lot of adventures built in.  It's like City-State of the Invincible Overlord, only moreso - and more usable, to boot.

(Speaking of Ptolus, a friend of mine won a copy from Gen Con last year.  He was one of the folks who held it at arms' length for something like 11 minutes.  The gladiator guy, if you were there or saw pictures of it.  I was going to buy it from him, but he decided to hold onto it.  And, what do you know, he's actually running a game with it.)

-O

Quote from: kregmosieragreed...i liked it better in 1977 when it was called "City State of the Invincible Overlord".  :rolleyes:

I have a idea!  Why don't we trot this statement out about any book that concentrates on a single city!  Won't that be insightful?

"I'm cool because I only like old stuff!"

-O

Ptolus is pure gold.

I use it when I´m on a limb in my wilderlands campaign: I just rip out some prepared stuff, like a ratling infestation, or some merchant house, and drop it right in the  Wilderlands city  my players are in right now.

It works great as a mine, but also offers so much more. It´s an amazing bargain.

Quote from: obrynI have a idea!  Why don't we trot this statement out about any book that concentrates on a single city!  Won't that be insightful?

"I'm cool because I only like old stuff!"

-O

I think he was being all ironic and stuff 'cos of the rolleyes? Might be wrong though.

I do agree to a certain extent with JArcane in that it seems as though more products are being released that look amazing and have a high price tag. Coffee table books. That doesn't mean that they can't be used and enjoyed though...if you have the dosh to put down on them. Some people like the ready to use stuff, some don't.

The £40 i spent on the updated Wilderlands boxed set is still the best i have spent though...Sorry. :p

Quote from: obrynI have a idea!  Why don't we trot this statement out about any book that concentrates on a single city!  Won't that be insightful?

"I'm cool because I only like old stuff!"

-O

dude, sorry for expressing my opinion.  hate that it apparently touched a nerve.

Quote from: kregmosierdude, sorry for expressing my opinion.  hate that it apparently touched a nerve.

Wow, I hate that my snarky response to your snarky comment apparently touched a nerve.

-O

Ptolus is very usable, imaginative, and modular. You can run an entire, 10+ year D&D campaign in it, or mine it for inspiration. Stuff like the cosmology, the story behind the spire, things like that make for great gaming. It's perhaps the most comprehensive and yet most usable setting ever devised for an RPG.

Go over to Monte's boards and read the Ptolus forum. There are tons of people getting tons of use out of the book. It's easily the best RPG city ever done.

Quote from: obrynWow, I hate that my snarky response to your snarky comment apparently touched a nerve.

-O

Obryn,

Please oh please don't berate me further.  Why don't you wait for my brother?  
He'd be much more of a meal than me!  :what:

Quote from: kregmosierObryn,

Please oh please don't berate me further.  Why don't you wait for my brother?  
He'd be much more of a meal than me!  :what:

You know, if you don't want people responding to your opinions, you should either (1) not post them publicly, or (2) include in your signature that you'd rather drop one-liners than defend your views.

-O

Why don't you guys take it to email or PM or a separate thread if you are enjoying insulting each other in public? We understand you disagree, and we understand you don't like each other. The point has been established. Now can we move on?

-clash

I'm not sure if you guys are going to keep fighting, or are going to start making out.

Either way, I'm watching this thread.

Quote from: flyingmiceWhy don't you guys take it to email or PM or a separate thread if you are enjoying insulting each other in public? We understand you disagree, and we understand you don't like each other. The point has been established. Now can we move on?

-clash

How could I insult someone in public via PM? ;)

Seriously, I'm not taking (or intending) this personally, and don't see why I'd dislike him, but I am kinda derailing the thread.  Sorry 'bout that.

-O

Quote from: obrynHow could I insult someone in public via PM? ;)

Seriously, I'm not taking (or intending) this personally, and don't see why I'd dislike him, but I am kinda derailing the thread.  Sorry 'bout that.

-O

Thanks, obryn! :D

-clash

completely agreed...was just going to ask the same in PM, but saw Clash's post.  


As for "defending my views":

In my opinion, Ptolus is the Ultimate Extreme Perfect Platinum Collectors Numbered Limited Edition-kind of vanity product that does nothing for the hobby, but encourages more of its kind.  

I mean, I collect a few things here and there but goddamn...not real sure even *I* can justify $120.  (and yes, i realize it's available in .pdf and 5-pack player guides, etc.)  There are numerous Fine Art books that cost the same that I won't buy either.


BEAR IN MIND, this is my personal opinion...not going to argue it anymore.

Back to the topic at hand. :)

Quote from: One Horse TownI do agree to a certain extent with JArcane in that it seems as though more products are being released that look amazing and have a high price tag. Coffee table books. That doesn't mean that they can't be used and enjoyed though...if you have the dosh to put down on them. Some people like the ready to use stuff, some don't.

I agree completely.  I think it's both a good trend and a bad trend...  I mean, I'm at the point in my life where I can spend $30-$40 on an impulse and not feel bad about it.  I'm not at the point in my life where I can do the same at the $120 price point.

From looking through it pretty thoroughly, I don't think Ptolus falls into the 'useless extravagance' category.  I'd actually say the price point is relatively fair for the quantity & quality of the material - I mean, it's basically the size of 3-4 books, sans cover, with art/binding/layout equal to or exceeding WotC itself.

I was, myself, really skeptical about it.  Then, I seriously looked through it and found that it wasn't just building-by-building capsule descriptions ala CSIO.  I think that a lot of the stones thrown at it are from folks who haven't given it a serious look.

QuoteThe £40 i spent on the updated Wilderlands boxed set is still the best i have spent though...Sorry. :p

I got that one, too.  I'm getting a lot of mileage from it.  Sadly, it has some really annoying aspects to it, but I'll start another thread for that...

-O

Quote from: mearlsI'm not sure if you guys are going to keep fighting, or are going to start making out.

Either way, I'm watching this thread.

wait...MAKING OUT WAS AN OPTION?!?! :eek:

*snap*  i never win.

Quote from: One Horse TownI do agree to a certain extent with JArcane in that it seems as though more products are being released that look amazing and have a high price tag. Coffee table books. That doesn't mean that they can't be used and enjoyed though...if you have the dosh to put down on them. Some people like the ready to use stuff, some don't.

Well, while I certainly understand where the skeptics are coming from here, I'll say that I think it's not fair to just cut Ptolus down to a coffee table book. It's pretty, yeah, but more than that. Its probably one of the best cross referenced and easy to use setting books out there.

That said, it's the prettiest book on my shelf right now, if you get my meaning.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadThat said, it's the prettiest book on my shelf right now, if you get my meaning.

That was my point. It does appeal to collectors as much as to people who will actually use it. As Obryn said above, that's both a good and a bad thing, depending on how you look at it. I'd love to buy the thing, but there's no way in hell i can put down that kind of money on it. :(

Quote from: mhensleyUmmm.... aren't the ennies supposed to be mainly for D20 products?  Where are the WOTC books?  It's beyond meaningless without them.  :confused:

Yup, it makes the whole thing a farce, doesn't it?

RPGPundit

Quote from: TonyLBWotC won't participate, for a variety of understandable reasons:  They've already won "First Place" in the marketplace ... why would they actively seek out an opportunity for some other game to say "Beat out WotC's for 1st!"?

Wizards shouldn't be "required" to participate. All WoTC products should be automatically included in the considerations.  To do otherwise is to ignore the reality of Wizards' place in the hobby.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Caesar SlaadJust to be clear, you don't have to be an ENWorld member to vote, though that is where the awareness of the awards is, of course, the highest.

The judging nominations were opened up and both the Forge and RPGnet were invited to participate. Despite this, most judges were still those with a noticeable ENwnorld presence (one actually had more posts at RPGnet than ENworld.) The forge could not swing enough votes to place their own candidates.

Hmm... here's an interesting thought. By next year we (theRPGsite) should be as big as the Forge or nearly so; I wonder if we'll be given the same invitation, or if these "invitations" are what I think they are, a plotted subversion of the process by the Swine? I guess time will tell.

RPGPundit

Quote from: mearlsI think this was a really weak year for RPGs. Ptolus was probably the biggest release. If you zipped 10 years into the future, was there anything else released this year that anyone will remember? Hollow Earth Expedition looks great, but I think it's caught in the general decline of the second tier. There simply isn't much traction available in the market.

The only thing I really noticed was Ptolus's absence from the d20 list. I'd be really, really interested in someone trying to explain to me how *any* of the products on that list are better than Ptolus. I'm not even close to seeing it.

I think Qin will be remembered in 10 years. It could be more than "remembered" if 7eme Circle weren't such utter froggie-fuckheads in how they've managed the English translation of their game. It could have been the blockbuster of the year if they'd been smarter about their schedule and support.

But I agree with you about Ptolus and the D20 list.

RPGPundit

Quote from: pigames.netDepends on how long Burning Empires and Spirit of the Century remain "indie" popular (as opposed to "mainstream" popular).

The answer to that question would be "Forever".  Neither of these games are going to be the magic bullet that pushes the Forge over the top.

Don't hold your breath for any magic bullet to come out of the Forge ever, frankly.

RPGPundit

I agree with all of the criticisms people have made about Ptolus. Its a vanity product, an example of how the current RPG market is geared (fatally so) toward "collectors" and not actual gamers, the exact opposite of what we need to be doing to keep the hobby healthy, etc etc.

But I still think that as a product, Ptolus was better than anything they put on the D20 category... I think there were other D20 products that would have been even BETTER choices than Ptolus, but if the choice was between Ptolus and, say "Dawning Star", I'd have to say Ptolus is more deserving of the ENnie.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditHmm... here's an interesting thought. By next year we (theRPGsite) should be as big as the Forge or nearly so; I wonder if we'll be given the same invitation, or if these "invitations" are what I think they are, a plotted subversion of the process by the Swine? I guess time will tell.

Heh.

Well, as I recall, two of our own forumites made a run of it. So there's really nothing we lack here that the forge has... other than the imagination we are bigger and more influential than we are. ;)

Just to inform all and sundry, my comments on the individual nominations are now posted on my blog entry for today (July 10th). (link to blog available on my sig)

RPGPundit

Quote from: Caesar SlaadHeh.

Well, as I recall, two of our own forumites made a run of it. So there's really nothing we lack here that the forge has... other than the imagination we are bigger and more influential than we are. ;)

Touche!

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditHmm... here's an interesting thought. By next year we (theRPGsite) should be as big as the Forge or nearly so; I wonder if we'll be given the same invitation, or if these "invitations" are what I think they are, a plotted subversion of the process by the Swine? I guess time will tell.

RPGPundit

Despite my normal optimism, it will most likely be at least 2 years, not 1, before we're as big or bigger than the Forge. I do think we'll eventually outgrow them, however, because we're an rpg site with a wider focus. Honestly though, I think it will be a couple years before therpgsite is issued invitations in any judging process from ENWorld. This place needs more time to grow. This site is still pretty new, and needs to demonstrate a little longevity.

Quote from: RPGPunditI think Qin will be remembered in 10 years. It could be more than "remembered" if 7eme Circle weren't such utter froggie-fuckheads in how they've managed the English translation of their game. It could have been the blockbuster of the year if they'd been smarter about their schedule and support.

But I agree with you about Ptolus and the D20 list.

RPGPundit

I just picked up Qin lastnight and love it so far. I saw it at Gencon last year, but just couldn't bring myself to buy it then. I wish I had.

Quote from: mearlsHollow Earth Expedition looks great, but I think it's caught in the general decline of the second tier. There simply isn't much traction available in the market.

Time will tell, but I think we're approaching escape velocity. Even though the game has been out for a while, it still feels like we're building momentum instead of holding steady or declining like you might expect.

For example, there was a lot of love for Hollow Earth Expedition at Origins this year. We didn't win the RPG of the Year award, but we had a steady stream of people coming by to tell me they voted for us. Sales were also good and we covered our expenses for going to the show.

We released our Gamemaster Screen at Origins, which was very well received. Even people that had no interest in the game had nice things to say about it. It's one sturdy GM screen!

We're also going to be releasing our first sourcebook, Secrets of the Surface World. One thing people really like about HEX is the setting, and this book will broaden the game world to include more traditional pulp games and broaden it's appeal. We should have some advanced copies of the book at Gen Con.

Speaking of Gen Con, last year we ran eight events with a total of 48 seats. We ended up turning people away. Thanks to our volunteers, this year we have 28 events with a total of 140 seats. When registration closed, we only had 6 seats still open. As a small company, with a niche game, it seems like we're still reaching new players all the time.

And finally, I recently licensed the Ubiquity game system to Greymalkin Designs, who are using it for a post-apocalyptic fantasy game. So, I hope to be able to revise and support the game sytem as time goes by.

With all that being said, there are no guarantees and anything can happen. But I hope people support us and we stick around for a while longer. I've still got some great stories to share!

Jeff Combos
Exile Game Studio
//www.exilegames.com

That's really great news, Jeff. The sense I've had is that a lot of the distributors and game stores have pretty much given up on most RPGs. I'm glad to hear that you're having success, and hopefully that keeps building.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm very impressed with HEX. It's a great game, and it deserves to build a fan base.

Quote from: mearlsAs I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm very impressed with HEX. It's a great game, and it deserves to build a fan base.

Thanks, Mike. That means a lot coming from you. :)

I like talking to retailers, and I've heard the same thing you have about declining RPG sales. But one of the nicest things a retailer said to me was, "Hollow Earth Expedition is selling. I know I can put it on the shelf and someone will buy it." And that was a quote from a retailer that was seeing a downturn in RPG sales.

Still, I've noticed a reluctance to take a chance on RPGs in the market. I run an Expedition Leader program where I send out prize support for folks that run games at their local game store or convention. In some cases, I've heard reports that players would have bought books after the demo if there had been some available in the store. These have turned into online and Amazon sales for me, which is good, but I'd rather see the local stores make the sale.

It remains to be seen what the future of roleplaying games will be, but I'm of the opinion that there is still a market for RPGs as long as players are provided with quality games and the opportunity to buy them.

Jeff

QuoteThe judging nominations were opened up and both the Forge and RPGnet were invited to participate. Despite this, most judges were still those with a noticeable ENwnorld presence (one actually had more posts at RPGnet than ENworld.) The forge could not swing enough votes to place their own candidates.

EnWorld requires that judges not be designers or publishers. That's the real reason no Forge-posting candidates made the list. Nearly everyone who posts over there and has any sort of critical faculty is an author, designer or publisher.


And remembered 10 years on, eh? I think an Origins Award for Best RPG of 2006 gives Burning Empires a damn good chance. :)

-L

I'm inclined to agree. I really like Burning Empires, though it's fucking hard to find folks to play it. It's the only non-supplement RPG product I wanted to buy this year. It's got a lot of neat stuff that I hope makes it into more mainstream RPG products, like that scene management business (especially in PvP or split-party campaigns) and the idea of a macroscosmic minigame (I loved this about Birthright too) that arises from and influences the microcosmic PC actions.

Must be frustrating that the same little sham vanity-press publications the Forgies made to get to call all of themselves "authors" stops them from being able to completely subvert the ENnies...

As for Origins Awards, I don't remember who won it last year, much less in 1997.  It'd be interesting to see how many of their picks were for games anyone still even gives a shit about...

RPGPundit

Quotethe idea of a macroscosmic minigame (I loved this about Birthright too) that arises from and influences the microcosmic PC actions.

Well, these are actually done way "better" in Traveller (Pocket Empires), or Harnmaster (HarnManor), or the Companion Set in D&D, or...

I put "better" in parentheses, as it never was the goal of BE to actually do a real microgame aspect of these subjects.

Instead you get nifty tools for pretending having a "macro-conflict". In reality, there is no strategy in BE, but you get to play some characters who think they are involved in a strategic conflict. BE is all about the characters, the opposite of any strategic game.

Pundit> You should be trying to convert the guys who make good games to your side, rather than pissing on the lot of them. That seems to be basically what the Forge guys do - they try to grab anyone who makes a good RPG, no matter how crunchy or inconsistent with whatever Forge-theory is this week.

Quote from: SettembriniWell, these are actually done way "better" in Traveller (Pocket Empires), or Harnmaster (HarnManor), or the Companion Set in D&D, or...

I put "better" in parentheses, as it never was the goal of BE to actually do a real microgame aspect of these subjects.

Instead you get nifty tools for pretending having a "macro-conflict". In reality, there is no strategy in BE, but you get to play some characters who think they are involved in a strategic conflict. BE is all about the characters, the opposite of any strategic game.

The various D&D mass-combat systems are another example of such systems being tried out. I'm not claiming it's sui generis, I'm claiming it's well done. I also didn't call it a "strategic" minigame.

What it does seem to do though, is take the events of the story with the PCs and provide a mechanism for explaining how their influence bears on the overall development of the world without requiring GM fiat, while providing enough options for how that ends up so that it's not just repetitious list checking. The competitive aspect of Burning Empires is really attractive to me as a guy who's played PvP D&D for years.

Quote from: RPGPunditAs for Origins Awards, I don't remember who won it last year, much less in 1997.  It'd be interesting to see how many of their picks were for games anyone still even gives a shit about...

You know, silly little games like Magic the Gathering and Legend of the Five Rings.

Quote from: SettembriniInstead you get nifty tools for pretending having a "macro-conflict". In reality, there is no strategy in BE, but you get to play some characters who think they are involved in a strategic conflict. BE is all about the characters, the opposite of any strategic game.

It's almost like English is your second language and you've never actually played the game. Oh wait....

You should try it, you might be surprised. Oh wait....

We've been down this path before, haven't we Mr Prussian?

-L

Quote from: PseudoephedrineWhat it does seem to do though, is take the events of the story with the PCs and provide a mechanism for explaining how their influence bears on the overall development of the world without requiring GM fiat, while providing enough options for how that ends up so that it's not just repetitious list checking.

Well, that does describe it. See the bolded part. By doing it the way it does, it centers the universe around the players, a thing I think is an abomination.
But it doesn´t matter what I think is an abomination or not, the tools in BE do what they do, as you described.

@PvP: Interestingly, everyone in Germany, Forgers included, agree that this aspect is totally lacking in BE. The GM makes all the important calls: Doling out Artha, on his whim.
Now, this doesn´t mean that´s detrimental to the game. But there is totally no meaningful confrontation going on in BE.

@Luke: How many planets? How many planets before the war is lost?
Tell me that, how many planets?

EDIT:
I fear, you don´t even know what a strategic game is. So let´s just settle this, before you go on a insult and embarassment spree, again.
I said what I wanted, let´s return to the main thread.

Quote from: Settembrini@PvP: Interestingly, everyone in Germany, Forgers included, agree that this aspect is totally lacking in BE. The GM makes all the important calls: Doling out Artha, on his whim.
Now, this doesn´t mean that´s detrimental to the game. But there is totally no meaningful confrontation going on in BE.

All of Germany? That's awesome.

GM does not dole out artha! Artha is game-neutral and group decided.

Why don't you actually try playing it? You're afraid it will change you, aren't you? Admit it.

Quote from: Settembrini@Luke: How many planets? How many planets before the war is lost?
Tell me that, how many planets?

That's a beautiful poem.

In Burning Empires, the answer is one.

Quote from: SettembriniWell, that does describe it. See the bolded part. By doing it the way it does, it centers the universe around the players, a thing I think is an abomination.
But it doesn´t matter what I think is an abomination or not, the tools in BE do what they do, as you described.

I think that's where we disagree in this case. While the "RPGs should be like books of fiction" thing can be suspicious as shit if left totally abstract, I think this technique is a useful one that can be taken from fiction and applied in interesting ways in games.

Quote@PvP: Interestingly, everyone in Germany, Forgers included, agree that this aspect is totally lacking in BE. The GM makes all the important calls: Doling out Artha, on his whim.
Now, this doesn´t mean that´s detrimental to the game. But there is totally no meaningful confrontation going on in BE.

I don't know that Artha determines everything in BE. I'll get back to you once I've played it. Even if it does, the conditions as set out in the rulebook seem to provide a space for players to be able to say "Give me my goddamn Artha" if the GM is being a rancid cunt about handing it out.

Quote from: lukeGM does not dole out artha! Artha is game-neutral and group decided.

I don't know if I'd go this far based on my read-through and then prepping to GM it. It does seem to be dialogical and public though - if the GM is tight-fisting the Artha, it seems like the rulebook encourages players to ask for it, and gives them things they can point to (like Beliefs being activated) that give them leverage to enforce those demands that the GM has to acknowledge.

Quote from: PseudoephedrinePundit> You should be trying to convert the guys who make good games to your side, rather than pissing on the lot of them. That seems to be basically what the Forge guys do - they try to grab anyone who makes a good RPG, no matter how crunchy or inconsistent with whatever Forge-theory is this week.

Yes, well over here we have a little something called convictions. So we'll call shit like it is, not try to claim that anything hip that comes along was really our idea and skip from one flash-in-the-pan theory-fad to another like cheap pseudointellectual-sluts.

RPGPundit

Quote from: lukeYou know, silly little games like Magic the Gathering and Legend of the Five Rings.

Wow, you really think a lot of yourself, don't you? Ah well, at least you haven't claimed that you're a genius on the level of Ginsberg or Kerouac yet.. or have you?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditYes, well over here we have a little something called convictions. So we'll call shit like it is, not try to claim that anything hip that comes along was really our idea and skip from one flash-in-the-pan theory-fad to another like cheap pseudointellectual-sluts.

RPGPundit

Sure, but unless you're going to kill the Forgers, the point of participating in a discourse directed at them is to get them to stop doing that, not just fling poo at them. I hate the faddism of the Forge, and so, whenever I talk to someone following the latest theory-fad, I try and bring them to an understanding that shows how vacuous that shit is, rather than just shouting a more verbose version of "Your dad gives ass to mouth for a nickel and I got a fistful of quarters."

Quote from: PseudoephedrineSure, but unless you're going to kill the Forgers, the point of participating in a discourse directed at them is to get them to stop doing that, not just fling poo at them. I hate the faddism of the Forge, and so, whenever I talk to someone following the latest theory-fad, I try and bring them to an understanding that shows how vacuous that shit is, rather than just shouting a more verbose version of "Your dad gives ass to mouth for a nickel and I got a fistful of quarters."

Actually, my point in participating in such a discourse is to help make it impossible for them to be able to fool others or get their agenda across.
I don't buy the idea that the Forgers are ignorant people doing what they do because they don't realize its not good or something like that. I think its pretty clear that they're true believers. So any real attempt to convince them will be futile.
That means you can engage them in witty banter, or you can actually make a point of ripping them a new one so that they can't fool others about what their real motives are.

RPGPundit

Naw. There's probably a hard core of turdlets inside the big soft mushy mass, but a lot of folks seem to stumble into being Forge-theorist types because they think that's what thinking about RPGs is. You sluice those folks off by making arguments filled with appealing rhetoric, and the most appealing kind of rhetoric is going to be the kind that works on the concerns they already have, but outdoes their prior understanding.

This is the point Pierce, Settembrini and I have all mentioned in relation to RPG theory - real academic theory about games and literature is far more interesting and useful than the stuff getting bantered about on the internet as "theory". I think that's a good point to make because it outdoes and shows up the Forge theories, rather than ceding anything to them.

It's a bit like science, ideally. Lee Smolin wouldn't get anywhere by calling the string theorists sons of bitches, but if he comes up with a theory that explains everything the string theorists want to explain, but more elegantly and more usefully, then the intellectually honest string theorists will switch over, and the intellectually dishonest ones will end up looking like electric alchemists.

The trick is that it's not that there's some uncommitted mass of scientists waiting for the outcome of this debate to make up their minds. So long as string theory is the only option, they'll go with it, and call themselves "string theorists" and read string theory journals and publish papers about it. But that doesn't mean they're never going to change their minds, and in fact, it makes it all the more urgent to change their minds.

Don't worry about Ron Edwards never coming around. Just worry about everyone else - even Luke Crane and Vincent Baker and whoever else is Capitalising Words this week.

Quote from: RPGPunditWow, you really think a lot of yourself, don't you?

You're the one who asked, Pundie!

It might interest some to know that WotC brand manager Scott Rouse has expressed interest in having WotC enter the ennies next year.

Quote from: jcombosTime will tell, but I think we're approaching escape velocity. Even though the game has been out for a while, it still feels like we're building momentum instead of holding steady or declining like you might expect.

It doesn't seem like that as a consumer. It seems like you're dead in the water. I stopped by your site last (because of the YouTube review) and nothing there changed that perception.

Seanchai

Quote from: lukeWe've been down this path before, haven't we Mr Prussian?

I dunno, but I definitely don't agree with Consonant Dude.

Seanchai

Quote from: PGivertyI don't understand what this means.

I created a new thread here. (http://therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=119377#post119377)

Seanchai

Quote from: J ArcaneWhereas I remain baffled as to what the hell is so great about Ptolus that I'd pay such a hideously steep price for what amounts to an overblown gazeteer of some guy's made up city.  

Who the hell gives a shit about production values if what's actually there is just Rote Overdetailed Setting #235?

I'm sure it's great for the collector guys who pretty much just buy this shit to look pretty on a shelf and show it off to their RPGnet friends, but I didn't see any evidence of actual substance there, or anything I haven't seen waaaay too many times by now.

This pretty much convinces me that you haven't actually looked at the book. Damn, Ptolus is fantastic. I can see saying "it's not my cup of tea," but saying there is no "evidence of actual substance" or that it's "Rote Overdetailed Setting #235" is utter bullshit, a sign, perhaps of hating a book for its price without actually reading it. And, oh yeah, I have the City State, old and new versions, love 'em both, but any comparisons between it and Ptolus are superficial, at best.

I edited this post to be a bit less incendiary.

Oh, I'll just delete this as it was just stoking a snarkfest further up the thread...

Quote from: RPGPunditWizards shouldn't be "required" to participate. All WoTC products should be automatically included in the considerations.  To do otherwise is to ignore the reality of Wizards' place in the hobby.

RPGPundit

How would you "require" them to participate? Make the judges buy all WotC books to look at? Ain't gonna happen. Not everybody has a job where they can afford to do that. Or simply place them in categories by default, circumventing the judging, and giving them even more of an unfair advantage? Believe me, I was badly disappointed when WotC decided not to enter, starting back when I was a judge myself. But there's no easy way to "require" their participation.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadIt might interest some to know that WotC brand manager Scott Rouse has expressed interest in having WotC enter the ennies next year.

That is interesting. It's about damned time.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonHow would you "require" them to participate? Make the judges buy all WotC books to look at? Ain't gonna happen. Not everybody has a job where they can afford to do that. Or simply place them in categories by default, circumventing the judging, and giving them even more of an unfair advantage? Believe me, I was badly disappointed when WotC decided not to enter, starting back when I was a judge myself. But there's no easy way to "require" their participation.

That's ENworld's problem to resolve, if they want to be taken seriously, not WoTC's.

RPGPundit

Quote from: mearlsThe only thing I really noticed was Ptolus's absence from the d20 list. I'd be really, really interested in someone trying to explain to me how *any* of the products on that list are better than Ptolus. I'm not even close to seeing it.

I've long ago given up on trying to fathom the minds of the judges.  Even after getting access to the Judges' Forum, I still don't get it.
At this point all I can say is that the judges were chosen by the fans for some reason, and that if fandom doesn't like their decisions, they choose different judges next year.

I was a judge this year and am happy to answer any questions you guys want to put to me. Some questions I will decline to enter because our deliberations were confidential. But I can certainly lay out my own reasons for supporting most of the choices our panel made.

And RPGPundit, the fact is that the ENnies do affect sales, corporate reputations and fan opinion. That's why so many of our winners print the ENnies logos on their products and why so many winners, the most recent case being the publishers of Shadowrun 4E let us know how much an ENnies win has helped them to reach the fans and improve their sales.

All of us on the panel, as well as the board members, are hopeful and excited about WOTC re-entering the competition but, even without them, the ENnies have continued to generate good industry buzz and pull in an ever-growing base of fans who vote on the awards. And I want to thank you, in your blog posts and here on The RPG Site, for contributing to our ever-increasing profile.

Fusangite:

My hat's off to you guys. That was an enormous load of stuff you had to wade through - insane actually. Thanks for all your hard work!

-clash

Quote from: DeniseI've long ago given up on trying to fathom the minds of the judges.  Even after getting access to the Judges' Forum, I still don't get it.
At this point all I can say is that the judges were chosen by the fans for some reason, and that if fandom doesn't like their decisions, they choose different judges next year.

As long as it´s basically an ENWorld Circus Maximus poularity contest to become a judge, you´ll have ENWorld/Circus Maximus-cool-kids group-think.

That´s just the way it is.

Quote from: SettembriniAs long as it´s basically an ENWorld Circus Maximus poularity contest to become a judge, you´ll have ENWorld/Circus Maximus-cool-kids group-think.

That´s just the way it is.

EN Worlders made up only approximately 40% of the voters for the judges for 2007.  The Gen Con EN World RPG Awards are NOT an ENW popularity contest.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

ALL (online) gamers are invited to vote for the products.
ALL (online) gamers are invited to vote for the judges.
ALL (online) gamers are invited to submit themselves as judge candidates.

I make every effort every year to spread the word, but there's only so much I can do.  If you don't like it, then vote.  Get your friends of similar mindset to vote.  Run for judge, even!

Denise,

I appreciate your efforts, and I´m not complaining.

@Fusangite: So, why is Ptolus only in the honourable mention and not a nominee for best d20 product?

Quote from: SettembriniAs long as it´s basically an ENWorld Circus Maximus poularity contest to become a judge, you´ll have ENWorld/Circus Maximus-cool-kids group-think.

I'd challenge you to explain the election of Master of the Game/Jeramy Ware. He had no profile on ENWorld whatsoever when he ran for the position; he was much better known on RPG.net and, much more importantly, with gamers he played with locally in his home town, whom he mobilized very effectively.

The other thing is that your criticism is reasonable if we were using multi-member plurality voting, as we have in the past. But under STV (the voting system for judges that we introduced last year), our current voting system, you can win, as was the case with Jeramy, with the majority of voters not knowing who you are. You're shooting for 20% of the vote now, not 50%.

This year, ENW/Circvs made up about 60% of the voters. Under a plurality sysyem, this would have meant that this group controlled the fate of every one of the five panel positions. Under STV, it means that this group controls 60% fo the panel positions.

For evidence of this, see the defeat of Chris Gath/Crothian who was an absolute shoe-in under the old plurality, ENW based system who was defeated by a significant margin.

Most importantly, Jeramy and I placed highest in the judge election because, instead of resting on our online profiles, we mobilized our own voter bases, making sure that the people with whom we have gamed, discussed RPGs and attended conventions with turned out to vote, whether or not they were registered members of any RPG forum. Of the four gaming groups of which I am part in Toronto, only two people even read any fo the gaming forums. And the rate of forum reading by my former gaming associates who live in Vancouver is even lower. And it is largely because of my efforts to turn out non-forum members that I placed second.

And that, finally, is what I want to stress. If you work hard during the election period to identify potential voters both on- and off-line and then keep track of whether they have voted, sending them reminders if you doin't hear from them that they have gone to the online voting booth, anybody can win. That´s just the way it is.

I worked very hard last year to develop a voting system for choosing judges that opened-up the group of potential judges to all of online fandom. And I think I have done so. If you have further suggestions for how to open this up more, in a democratic fashion, I'm all ears.

Quote from: SettembriniSo, why is Ptolus only in the honourable mention and not a nominee for best d20 product?

All I can personally say on this front is that my decision to rank Ptolus 6th in Best D20 had very little to do with Ptolus and a great deal to do with the quality of the other products on the list.

I considered Helios Rising to be a better setting book that Ptolus because I felt it was more creative and innovative and also because it asked and answered questions about the setting it described that I was more interested in than the questions Ptolus answered.

Similarly, I found that Warlords of the Accordlands gave me a sharper and more complete picture of a setting than Ptolus did. Instead of the cosmology/mythology having one cool/interesting aspect, as did Ptolus did, I found that Warlords offered many. I also found that the adventures and adventure hooks provided in Warlords were less railroady than Ptolus was. (Not that I consider Ptolus to be a big offender in that area; it's just that Warlords was even less so). Also, and this is a matter of personal taste, a lot off Ptolus's schtick is the routinization of magic and the way that people have adapted it into their everyday consciousness. I find such a world less exciting than a place like the Accordlands where it seems like people are most interested in striving for magic that is beyond their reach. The insufficiency of magic seems like a more engaging (for me) theme for making magic commonplace.

Five Fingers, interestingly, was there, at least in part, because of its brevity. It wasn't just that people felt like they had a feel for the setting when they closed the book. They had it immediately, within the first few pages. When I was reading the book, I was reminded of Italo Calvino's great book Invisible Cities in which the author is able to convey the whole idea of a fantastic city in the space of a page and a half. I think, also that the idea of a place's history being essentially written into the physical landscape itself was a powerful one.

Ultimate Power, on the other hand, was a completely different kettle of fish. As one judge put it, the book "completes" Mutants and Masterminds, giving GMs and players much-needed flexibility to design almost any set of powers. Instead of souping-up hero powers, this book had the courage to offer nothing to those seeking to get more powerful by buying more books and, instead, focused their volume on empowering GMs and players to convert basically any super-powered character from film, novels or comic books into M&M terms.

Etberpunk: Upload was very close, in the running to the other Scope book for this setting that Goodman released. It was almost a toss of a coin as to whether Etherpunk or Mysteries of the Occult was the better of the two. I loved both books and felt that they, together, filled-out the Etherscope universe in terms both of fluff and crunch.

I felt that all five of our selections were, in one way or another, more innovative than Ptolus, more important in completing their product line than Ptolus or were simply better settings than Ptolus was.

As for why Ptolus made Product of the Year and some of these works did not, let me offer a few general comments about the judging process that may be helpful:
(a) sometimes, when a couple of products are neck-and-neck for 5th place in a category and we end up awarding one an honourable mention instead of a finalist, the next time that happens to the very same product, we often favour the one that narrowly lost the last time we were forced to almost toss a coin to see which one won.
(b) late in the selection process, as time for negotiated consensus runs down, we sometimes have to fall to majority voting to see which product wins. Because we couldn't reach consensus on every category, some categories are more characteristic of majority rule and others of a consensus amongst all the judges.
(c) in any voting system, no matter how fair, the length of a list matters a lot. This is even true when negotiating a consensus. Lists of 10/12 products look a lot different than lists of 5/6 products and have very different properties. Being the seventh-best or ninth-best in a judge's mind matters a lot in the Product of the Year category whereas it is irrelevant in the other categories we judge.

I hope that this answers your question.

Quote from: fusangiteI'd challenge you to explain the election of Master of the Game/Jeramy Ware.

A promise to playtest games.  As it happens, though, I'd happily vote for him again - he brought the process to the public.  I'd encourage others to do so as well.

QuoteMost importantly, Jeramy and I placed highest in the judge election because, instead of resting on our online profiles, we mobilized our own voter bases, making sure that the people with whom we have gamed, discussed RPGs and attended conventions with turned out to vote, whether or not they were registered members of any RPG forum. Of the four gaming groups of which I am part in Toronto, only two people even read any fo the gaming forums. And the rate of forum reading by my former gaming associates who live in Vancouver is even lower. And it is largely because of my efforts to turn out non-forum members that I placed second.

I'm glad you both have a lot of offline friends, but I hope you can understand how this would be discouraging to those of us relying on folk who post online rather than going to all of our local friends and relatives.  But you're absolutely right - this is an election and whatever votes you can get are worthwhile.

Quote from: C.W.RichesonA promise to playtest games.

Sorry. I totally forgot to mention one of the most important things: how people conducted the campaign -- not only was the playtesting promise a factor; other promises and aspects of election campaign style made a difference. I know, for instance, that ICE's Rasyr attacking the ENnies and giving me the opportunity to be their strident defender swung a bunch of votes my way.

I do think that the intelligence, honesty and respectfulness with which candidates answered questions in the froum threads made a difference in how some people voted, including me. How I ranked candidates I did not know was based solely on the quality of the ansers and the promises made in these threads.

Also, I think that local Con-organizing and activity made a big difference and came very very close to pushing one of the organizers of Montreal's Royal Con over the top.

QuoteAs it happens, though, I'd happily vote for him again - he brought the process to the public.

This is now strong incumbents are made :).

QuoteI'd encourage others to do so as well.

Obviously this will be an important issue in the up coming campaign. I look forward to more election promises of this ilk as things move forward.

Quote from: DeniseALL (online) gamers are invited to submit themselves as judge candidates.

Including people from outside the USA?

Quote from: JongWKIncluding people from outside the USA?

IIRC there are special rules if you're outside the U.S.  I think if there are any customs fees or anything else you have to pay them.  I'm sure you could head over to the ENWorld thread and find out real quick.

Two of the judges this year were outside the US.

-clash

Quote from: JongWKIncluding people from outside the USA?

Yes!
This year we had two Canadian judges.  In past years we've had at least one judge in Europe IIRC.

There are publishers around the world sending in their product.  Judges are responsible for paying for any duties or taxes incurred (though we encourage publishers to emphasize that the product sent is a sample and has no retail value so as to reduce any financial burden on the judges), by the way.  

Physical location doesn't play a part- abillity to read and communicate in English as well as being online are necessities, though.

Quote from: fusangiteAnd RPGPundit, the fact is that the ENnies do affect sales, corporate reputations and fan opinion.

Sure, but to what degree? I'd put good money down that the majority of roleplayers don't know what the ENnies are.

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiSure, but to what degree? I'd put good money down that the majority of roleplayers don't know what the ENnies are.

So would I. I would also contend that the majority of role players haven't heard of most of the games in the awards, and that, even after WOTC enters, most gamers will not hear of the awards.

Sure it would be great if the awards were as well-known in the hobby as the Academy Awards are among movie-goers. But I don't think that's a realistic goal.

Quote from: fusangiteSo would I. I would also contend that the majority of role players haven't heard of most of the games in the awards, and that, even after WOTC enters, most gamers will not hear of the awards.

So when you say that the ENnies affect sales, we're not really talking about a lot...

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiSo when you say that the ENnies affect sales, we're not really talking about a lot...

Seanchai

Well, we don't have numbers if that's what you are asking, but enough actual publishers have happily told us of noticeably increased sales after the awards that we feel comfortable describing the effects as "positive"

I mean, ddid winning an ENnie award make an RPG beat out video gaming in the culture's consciousness as a pastime? No It didn't.

But when sales increase enough that Publishers think it's worth it based on that as well as the other benefits of winning an ENnie, that's good enough for me.

Quote from: SeanchaiSo when you say that the ENnies affect sales, we're not really talking about a lot...

Put it this way: it matters enough that several companies have complained about the process and tried to alter it to their favor.  Why would they care so much if they won if it didn't help them in some way?

Quote from: SeanchaiSo when you say that the ENnies affect sales, we're not really talking about a lot...

Depends on the company's existing sales base. The effects of an ENnies win or nomination on a WOTC product would be fairly small. The effects of a win or nomination on a smaller press could be considerable. Depends entirely on the size of your current print run and customer base. When Expeditious Retreat Press won an award in its early days, it made a gigantic difference because they were quite small at the time.

Part of the richness and complexity of the ENnies is the widely disparate press sizes competing. And that's a good thing, in my view.

Quote from: NicephorusPut it this way: it matters enough that several companies have complained about the process and tried to alter it to their favor.  Why would they care so much if they won if it didn't help them in some way?

Because most RPG companies are run by gamers, not businessmen or marketeers.

Seanchai

Quote from: fusangiteThe effects of a win or nomination on a smaller press could be considerable. Depends entirely on the size of your current print run and customer base.

In other words, sales might increase from 20 to 35 units.

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiIn other words, sales might increase from 20 to 35 units.

It could be that small, I suppose. No market research has been done; accounts from Shadowrun 4E's producers and Expeditious Retreat Press's owners would suggest that your estimate is excessively low but I lack any hard statistics of orders to reinforce this. So I suppose Green Ronin, Paizo and the various other companies that sell thousands of units could just be wrong in their assessments of our market influence.

Fortunately, the ENnies appear to deliver non-monetary values as well to publishers, fans, artists and writers by celebrating excellence in the hobby and honouring people who deserve some credit. Mainly I'm posting to this thread because, after 5 days of voting, we have surpassed 4500 votes from fans.

For those who asked earlier:

In Master of the Game's blog - http://enniejudge.blogspot.com/ - he mentions that In Harm's Way made his short list of 9 for best electronic book, but was dropped in the final cut, for what seems to me extremely valid reasons:

"In Harm's Way is a fascinating game based on naval warfare in the Napoleonic era. It's fantastically written, and contains tome great evocative text from a period source, which I loved. It actually made my list as an alternate, but it dropped off because its narrow scope aimed at (and squarely hit) a single, very specific type of roleplayer. If it's your type of game I whole-heartily recommend it, but I just couldn't find room for it in the top 5."

Made me feel really good anyway. :D

-clash

Quote from: fusangiteAlso, I think that local Con-organizing and activity made a big difference and came very very close to pushing one of the organizers of Montreal's Royal Con over the top.This is now strong incumbents are made :).Obviously this will be an important issue in the up coming campaign. I look forward to more election promises of this ilk as things move forward.

So how close was I? :)

For the record, I do not intend to propose myself for next year. I'm starting a new job and it's going to be very demanding.

You know, say what you will, but the ENnies are the way I initially met one of my now-favorite companies--Expeditious Retreat Press.

Quote from: KaladhanSo how close was I? :)

For the record, I do not intend to propose myself for next year. I'm starting a new job and it's going to be very demanding.

I think you came in 7th.

Clash,

I know that I playtested IHW and so my view of it may be considered biased.

It was a pleasure to play, it maybe seen as narrow in its field of playing but cannot be bettered for what it provides a gamer for playing in that time period.
Consise but easy to use rules and a very unique character generation system made for exciting characters and interesting playing.

I for one would rate it very highly.

You have made a gamer out of me for this.

That reminds me I will have to buy a copy :(, ive been so buy I havent had time to get one.

Oops that make me really bad, sorry.

Rog.

Quote from: vestiniousClash,

I know that I playtested IHW and so my view of it may be considered biased.

It was a pleasure to play, it maybe seen as narrow in its field of playing but cannot be bettered for what it provides a gamer for playing in that time period.
Consise but easy to use rules and a very unique character generation system made for exciting characters and interesting playing.

I for one would rate it very highly.

You have made a gamer out of me for this.

That reminds me I will have to buy a copy :(, ive been so buy I havent had time to get one.

Oops that make me really bad, sorry.

Rog.

Hi Rog!

Haven't seen you in ages! You have been busy! :D

Thanks for your kind thoughts! Just remember - as a playtester, a lot of what is good about it is due to you.

-clash

Your welcome :)

Snowed under seems to fit the bill, playtesting can be busy but designing well you know how busy that keeps you.

I've been getting things sorted for Gencon UK and making sure that we are ready for the demo's.

Rog.

I know I love Planewalker.com. It's an amazing fan site and resource, and has seriously made me want to run a 3.5 Planescape D&D game.

It would be awesome.

Quote from: RPGPunditWow, you really think a lot of yourself, don't you? Ah well, at least you haven't claimed that you're a genius on the level of Ginsberg or Kerouac yet.. or have you?

RPGPundit

Luke's the humble one. I'm the genius.

- J

Quote from: Jared A. SorensenLuke's the humble one. I'm the genius.

- J

Hey, I'm thinking of buying a fat box of Inspectres this weekend. Don't ruin it for me ;)

Quote from: Jared A. SorensenLuke's the humble one. I'm the genius.

- J

Yes, but you actually at least go partways to deserving the moniker.  Luke might be more humble than you, but he's got a hell of a lot to be more humbe about.

RPGPundit