Quote from: Anselyn on May 14, 2021, 08:48:03 AM
This just in from the ENWorld review: "The famous occult detective Alanik Ray and adventuring physician Arthur Sedgwick are an example of how they're updated. While pursuing a serial killer Alanik fell from a roof, paralyzing his legs. Since his intellect has always been his greatest weapon, he still solves mysteries from a custom wheelchair, aided by Sedgwick, who he married."

Has it occurred to anyone that this is so OTT that they might just be taking the piss by this point?

They made Arthur Sedgwick black, too. Not necessarily a change, since he was never described before this.

https://media-waterdeep.cursecdn.com/attachments/8/602/van-richtens-guide-to-ravenloft.jpg

Quote from: Anselyn on May 14, 2021, 08:48:03 AMThis just in from the ENWorld review: "The famous occult detective Alanik Ray and adventuring physician Arthur Sedgwick are an example of how they're updated. While pursuing a serial killer Alanik fell from a roof, paralyzing his legs. Since his intellect has always been his greatest weapon, he still solves mysteries from a custom wheelchair, aided by Sedgwick, who he married."

All right, I have officially changed my position on what I will do if I get one use of a time travel machine to change history.

Rather than go back to 1836 and arrange, somehow, for Karl Marx not to get expelled from the University of Bonn (thus preventing him from attending the University of Berlin where he would get involved with Feuerbach and the Young Hegelians, which led directly to the spawning of Marxism which has a direct causal root of all the atrocities of the 20th century), I will go back in time to 1963, when Star Trek is being developed, and persuade Gene Roddenberry to give Mr. Spock a wife as a key running character in the show. This will hopefully nip in the bud the entire phenomenon of K/S fanfic, from which I believe all this kind of sexual-reinvention character shenanigans first developed. (Seriously, when did genre fandom become convinced that any kind of close emotional relationship automatically read as a potentially sexual one?)

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on May 14, 2021, 01:11:51 PM
Rather than go back to 1836 and arrange, somehow, for Karl Marx not to get expelled from the University of Bonn (thus preventing him from attending the University of Berlin where he would get involved with Feuerbach and the Young Hegelians, which led directly to the spawning of Marxism which has a direct causal root of all the atrocities of the 20th century), I will go back in time to 1963, when Star Trek is being developed, and persuade Gene Roddenberry to give Mr. Spock a wife as a key running character in the show. This will hopefully nip in the bud the entire phenomenon of K/S fanfic, from which I believe all this kind of sexual-reinvention character shenanigans first developed. (Seriously, when did genre fandom become convinced that any kind of close emotional relationship automatically read as a potentially sexual one?)

  A worthy cause, but there are two obstacles:

  1. This probably comes from the sexual saturation of Apostate Christendom, and since sci-fi fandom has always been more easily infected by such ideas, it's a symptom rather than the root of the problem.

  2. Given what we know about Gene Roddenberry as a man and a writer, do you really think he'd assent to having one of his characters 'tied down'?

what's "Apostate Christendom" mean in this context

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 14, 2021, 01:20:03 PMA worthy cause, but there are two obstacles:

  1. This probably comes from the sexual saturation of Apostate Christendom, and since sci-fi fandom has always been more easily infected by such ideas, it's a symptom rather than the root of the problem.

Granted. But in the '60s there was still some resistance to endorsing active infidelity, especially given that much of what makes Spock attractive to women as a character is his ironclad sense of honour and veracity. Plus, by contrasting the Kirk-Spock friendship against Spock's (ideally) happy relationship with his wife, the fans might be less prone to misunderstand one kind of closeness for another, and stifling that habit at the source would likely have significant ripple effects.

Quote2. Given what we know about Gene Roddenberry as a man and a writer, do you really think he'd assent to having one of his characters 'tied down'?

I didn't intend to give him an opportunity for assent. If blackmail proved unfruitful (and the man was enough of a philanderer that seems unlikely), I was fully OK with using mob-style physical coercion. Once the show had been on the air for at least a year, I could just pop back to my now-hopefully-much-improved present day.

Of course, this sort of thing is probably why time travel to the past is not just practically but philosophically impossible. But a man can dream, can't he? 

Quote from: This Guy on May 14, 2021, 01:26:22 PM
what's "Apostate Christendom" mean in this context

   Contemporary Western civilization.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 14, 2021, 01:41:18 PM

Quote from: This Guy on May 14, 2021, 01:26:22 PM
what's "Apostate Christendom" mean in this context

   Contemporary Western civilization.

Enlightenment Western Civilization.

Quote from: RandyB on May 14, 2021, 01:43:05 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 14, 2021, 01:41:18 PM

Quote from: This Guy on May 14, 2021, 01:26:22 PM
what's "Apostate Christendom" mean in this context

   Contemporary Western civilization.

Enlightenment Western Civilization.

Huh, okay. Do we need to go back to Boethius?

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 14, 2021, 12:47:32 PM

Quote from: Anselyn on May 14, 2021, 08:48:03 AM
This just in from the ENWorld review: "The famous occult detective Alanik Ray and adventuring physician Arthur Sedgwick are an example of how they're updated. While pursuing a serial killer Alanik fell from a roof, paralyzing his legs. Since his intellect has always been his greatest weapon, he still solves mysteries from a custom wheelchair, aided by Sedgwick, who he married."

Has it occurred to anyone that this is so OTT that they might just be taking the piss by this point?

They made Arthur Sedgwick black, too.

He might be black, gay, and disabled. But he's still a man. Bigots.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on May 14, 2021, 01:11:51 PM
All right, I have officially changed my position on what I will do if I get one use of a time travel machine to change history.

Rather than go back to 1836 and arrange, somehow, for Karl Marx not to get expelled from the University of Bonn (thus preventing him from attending the University of Berlin where he would get involved with Feuerbach and the Young Hegelians, which led directly to the spawning of Marxism which has a direct causal root of all the atrocities of the 20th century), I will go back in time to 1963, when Star Trek is being developed, and persuade Gene Roddenberry to give Mr. Spock a wife as a key running character in the show. This will hopefully nip in the bud the entire phenomenon of K/S fanfic, from which I believe all this kind of sexual-reinvention character shenanigans first developed. (Seriously, when did genre fandom become convinced that any kind of close emotional relationship automatically read as a potentially sexual one?)

I think it's always been true that close male/female emotional relationships are interpreted as potentially sexual. For example, Sherlock Holmes is one of the most prominent sources of early fan fiction early on - and stories often had Irene Adler as a romantic interest for him, even though the Doyle story was clear that he had only non-romantic admiration for her. Jane Austen also inspired a lot of fan fiction, and those often featured different romantic pairings than in the canonical novels.

I would say that reading emotional same-sex relationships as potentially sexual ones comes pretty directly from tolerance/acceptance of homosexual relationships in society, from figures like Alfred Kinsey starting in the 1950s. I think you're right that Kirk/Spock was a key to that breaking through to science fiction fandom - but as long as homosexuality became accepted, it was eventually going to happen regardless of Star Trek.

Quote from: jhkim on May 14, 2021, 02:36:35 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on May 14, 2021, 01:11:51 PM
All right, I have officially changed my position on what I will do if I get one use of a time travel machine to change history.

Rather than go back to 1836 and arrange, somehow, for Karl Marx not to get expelled from the University of Bonn (thus preventing him from attending the University of Berlin where he would get involved with Feuerbach and the Young Hegelians, which led directly to the spawning of Marxism which has a direct causal root of all the atrocities of the 20th century), I will go back in time to 1963, when Star Trek is being developed, and persuade Gene Roddenberry to give Mr. Spock a wife as a key running character in the show. This will hopefully nip in the bud the entire phenomenon of K/S fanfic, from which I believe all this kind of sexual-reinvention character shenanigans first developed. (Seriously, when did genre fandom become convinced that any kind of close emotional relationship automatically read as a potentially sexual one?)

I think it's always been true that close male/female emotional relationships are interpreted as potentially sexual. For example, Sherlock Holmes is one of the most prominent sources of early fan fiction early on - and stories often had Irene Adler as a romantic interest for him, even though the Doyle story was clear that he had only non-romantic admiration for her. Jane Austen also inspired a lot of fan fiction, and those often featured different romantic pairings than in the canonical novels.

I would say that reading emotional same-sex relationships as potentially sexual ones comes pretty directly from tolerance/acceptance of homosexual relationships in society, from figures like Alfred Kinsey starting in the 1950s. I think you're right that Kirk/Spock was a key to that breaking through to science fiction fandom - but as long as homosexuality became accepted, it was eventually going to happen regardless of Star Trek.

I don't think there is any issue with making a character in Ravenloft gay. Like I said elsewhere, there is lots of queer cinema in classic horror, and Ravenloft seemed to have characters who were strongly suggested to be gay. At some point, someone made Hazlik gay I believe. There are other characters where that would make sense. With Alanik Ray, I could see there maybe being a Xena and Gabriel thing people read into. The issue I think is more the way they are doing this stuff: it feels like they are checking off all the boxes in terms of this, interim of flipping tropes, etc. But more than that, the art for Alanik Ray looks like Harry Potter to me. Homosexuality certainly fits being a part of Ravenloft. It's more the shift in aesthetics, the way it seems the language is actually afraid of horror, and the way they are doing it.

For example one massive change is they are changing Ravenloft into a hybrid of high fantasy and multi-genre horror. Nothing wrong with that kind of setting but the Ravenloft line was very explicitly gothic/classic horror. The black box was very clear about getting to classic horror roots and eschewing more modern horror conventions. I love all kinds of horror, but what they are doing with the setting now isn't true to the flavor of the line (and there is something to be said for a focused, classic horror setting IMO)

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 14, 2021, 03:09:12 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 14, 2021, 02:36:35 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on May 14, 2021, 01:11:51 PM
All right, I have officially changed my position on what I will do if I get one use of a time travel machine to change history.

Rather than go back to 1836 and arrange, somehow, for Karl Marx not to get expelled from the University of Bonn (thus preventing him from attending the University of Berlin where he would get involved with Feuerbach and the Young Hegelians, which led directly to the spawning of Marxism which has a direct causal root of all the atrocities of the 20th century), I will go back in time to 1963, when Star Trek is being developed, and persuade Gene Roddenberry to give Mr. Spock a wife as a key running character in the show. This will hopefully nip in the bud the entire phenomenon of K/S fanfic, from which I believe all this kind of sexual-reinvention character shenanigans first developed. (Seriously, when did genre fandom become convinced that any kind of close emotional relationship automatically read as a potentially sexual one?)

I think it's always been true that close male/female emotional relationships are interpreted as potentially sexual. For example, Sherlock Holmes is one of the most prominent sources of early fan fiction early on - and stories often had Irene Adler as a romantic interest for him, even though the Doyle story was clear that he had only non-romantic admiration for her. Jane Austen also inspired a lot of fan fiction, and those often featured different romantic pairings than in the canonical novels.

I would say that reading emotional same-sex relationships as potentially sexual ones comes pretty directly from tolerance/acceptance of homosexual relationships in society, from figures like Alfred Kinsey starting in the 1950s. I think you're right that Kirk/Spock was a key to that breaking through to science fiction fandom - but as long as homosexuality became accepted, it was eventually going to happen regardless of Star Trek.

I don't think there is any issue with making a character in Ravenloft gay. Like I said elsewhere, there is lots of queer cinema in classic horror, and Ravenloft seemed to have characters who were strongly suggested to be gay. At some point, someone made Hazlik gay I believe. There are other characters where that would make sense. With Alanik Ray, I could see there maybe being a Xena and Gabriel thing people read into. The issue I think is more the way they are doing this stuff: it feels like they are checking off all the boxes in terms of this, interim of flipping tropes, etc. But more than that, the art for Alanik Ray looks like Harry Potter to me. Homosexuality certainly fits being a part of Ravenloft. It's more the shift in aesthetics, the way it seems the language is actually afraid of horror, and the way they are doing it.

For example one massive change is they are changing Ravenloft into a hybrid of high fantasy and multi-genre horror. Nothing wrong with that kind of setting but the Ravenloft line was very explicitly gothic/classic horror. The black box was very clear about getting to classic horror roots and eschewing more modern horror conventions. I love all kinds of horror, but what they are doing with the setting now isn't true to the flavor of the line (and there is something to be said for a focused, classic horror setting IMO)

Brendan - I was replying to Stephen Tannhauser's question now bolded above, not about the Ravenloft discussion in general. I haven't read Van Richten's guide yet, and am not making any commentary about it either way.

EDITED TO ADD: I really loved the original I6 module and the sequel module, but I didn't like the boxed set that made it into a meta-setting. There was some material to mine, but I thought the whole structure of the demi-planes was strangely meta. When I ran my own gothic horror campaign, I ran it as gothic horror elements in a complete world, rather than a pocket demi-plane. At this point, I haven't even read a complete review of Van Richten's guide.

All you need to know about this books is that polygon likes it:

Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft is the biggest, best D&D book of this generation
A thrilling book of horror adventures will bring people together again
https://www.polygon.com/22430494/dungeons-dragons-van-richtens-guide-to-ravenloft-review

This review is just effuse with praise:
"Somehow project lead Wesley Schneider also managed to cram in a multitude of new options for character creation, an assortment of clever allies, 32 vicious new monsters, and all the gentle guidance your group needs to run a spine-tingling campaign of your own devising safely at the table."

With an endorsement like that how could any Old-School Ravenloft fan not buy this book!

What a fucking train wreck. ROTFL!!

The have certainly confirmed the new direction they are taking D&D after candlekeep...

Quote from: Anselyn on May 14, 2021, 08:48:03 AM

Quote from: This Guy on May 13, 2021, 11:05:59 PM
saw a bit of art recently. Really going all in on that combat wheelchair gimmick arent they

This just in from the ENWorld review: "The famous occult detective Alanik Ray and adventuring physician Arthur Sedgwick are an example of how they're updated. While pursuing a serial killer Alanik fell from a roof, paralyzing his legs. Since his intellect has always been his greatest weapon, he still solves mysteries from a custom wheelchair, aided by Sedgwick, who he married."

Has it occurred to anyone that this is so OTT that they might just be taking the piss by this point?

And then everyone on the train applauded.

Quote from: jhkim on May 14, 2021, 02:36:35 PMI think it's always been true that close male/female emotional relationships are interpreted as potentially sexual.

Not by most of the women actually in them, or guys would never have invented the term "friend zone". Remember that the vast majority of M/M explicit fanfic is generated by straight female authors.

QuoteI would say that reading emotional same-sex relationships as potentially sexual ones comes pretty directly from tolerance/acceptance of homosexual relationships in society....

I'd suggest the causality goes the other way, actually, or at least that there's a significant feedback cycle element to it: a major part of what promotes tolerance and acceptance is the public celebration of same-sex emotional intimacy as "naturally" potentially sexual, a perception that -- to be honest -- strikes me as far more likely to come from a majority-female audience than a majority-male one. Especially an audience saturated more in visual live-action imagery based on casting the best-looking actors it can -- Holmes and Watson have had a vast fanbase from their earliest days, but it's no coincidence that the Ravenloft expies Ray and Sedgwick only got sexualized as a couple after there had been a decade's worth of fanfic written about the Cumberbatch/Freeman versions of the canon originals.

On a broader basis, this seems to be the whole trouble with the Ravenloft setting reinvention: the designers seem to be trying to have their cake and eat it too by retaining everything old fans liked while simultaneously reinventing it to appeal to a desired new fanbase, and I am skeptical of their ability to pull this off. Sometimes trying to please everybody really does result in pleasing nobody.