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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: Shrieking Banshee on June 25, 2020, 07:06:59 pm

Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 25, 2020, 07:06:59 pm
I want to hear about what is the definitive Shadowrun game to check out. I'm more familiar with 4e and its mechanics, and from what I get Shadowrun has always had dumb plot elements and jank mechanics.

But what else is worth checking out?
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Spinachcat on June 25, 2020, 07:52:23 pm
The first edition of Shadowrun is worth reading. It's got all the jank mechanics, but the world is being laid down for the first time and its far more of a passion project than anything later. The first edition - like many new games from small publishers - was built on a hope and a prayer, not corporate logistics and attempts to appease the maximum audience. And of course, 1e doesn't suffer from metaplot canon bloat.

Every edition of SR has wankass mechanics (more or less in various editions depending on what's important to you), so if you like the setting, I'd highly consider porting it over to D6 system. D6 isn't a sexy system, but its blandness doesn't matter if you value something that's easy to use, reliable and mostly fades into the background during actual play. The PCs are at the similiar level of toughness in both systems.

There are so many D6 support PDFs out there now that your conversion would be done in a weekend.
Or just play SR with its wankass mechanics.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: CRKrueger on June 25, 2020, 09:06:08 pm
I think the strongest Shadowrun is Second as a base with Third added in to taste.  Anything Catalyst is just a godawful mess.  The setting is inferior to FASA's as well.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: KingCheops on June 25, 2020, 10:26:32 pm
It's third for me.  Plot line pretty much hit its peak with the end of the corporate wars and the mob wars in Seattle and the Renraku Arcology Shutdown.  Brainscan was a very fun campaign.  3rd was the last gasp for pink mohawk but still worked pretty well for both.  Just avoid any of the Comet related stuff -- that's when SR started to jump the shark story wise.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: lordmalachdrim on June 26, 2020, 07:38:32 am
The Comet stuff was after Shadowrun was moved from FASA to FanPro.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Omega on June 26, 2020, 09:33:21 am
I have 1st ed. But I played extensively 2nd ed. 2e SR seems to be the go-to for good Shadowrun play with a pinch of 3e to tastes.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: KingCheops on June 26, 2020, 12:15:51 pm
Quote from: lordmalachdrim;1136421
The Comet stuff was after Shadowrun was moved from FASA to FanPro.

Yup but they still had some writers I enjoyed in FanPro.  It wasn't until Catalyst and the embezzlement when it really goes down the crapper.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Itachi on June 26, 2020, 12:59:05 pm
Quote from: CRKrueger;1136359
I think the strongest Shadowrun is Second as a base with Third added in to taste.  Anything Catalyst is just a godawful mess.  The setting is inferior to FASA's as well.
This.

Also, aesthetics wise FASA really nailed it in a way newer editions never could. It made the setting exotic and it's own thing instead of just some hi-tech with elfs. The old cover (and logo) says it all, I think.


(https://image.isu.pub/110608114500-b3879df493d34259a33a70f8b6bae428/jpg/page_1.jpg)
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: KingCheops on June 26, 2020, 02:13:54 pm
Love the street sam with the war paint.  So much better than the 3e cover (which was FASA as well but bland).
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Itachi on June 26, 2020, 02:37:06 pm
Me too. Also, the wild west looking longcoat of the lady in the middle.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: lordmalachdrim on June 26, 2020, 03:08:41 pm
Love the old logo with the skull and the circuit board scroll
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 26, 2020, 03:25:18 pm
I always have trouble coming up with plots or things I find interesting in cyberpunk settings without ending the cyberpunk. I'm not super interested in endless mercenary jobs, and changing the world would just be grimy miserable domestic terrorism with no real positive outcome.

To a certain extent in stories that motivate me, I want something to protect or something to change to the better. And the only sort of stories of that in Shadowrun require very uncyberpunky stories (IE the Videogames).
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Itachi on June 26, 2020, 03:44:33 pm
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136535
I always have trouble coming up with plots or things I find interesting in cyberpunk settings without ending the cyberpunk. I'm not super interested in endless mercenary jobs, and changing the world would just be grimy miserable domestic terrorism with no real positive outcome.

To a certain extent in stories that motivate me, I want something to protect or something to change to the better. And the only sort of stories of that in Shadowrun require very uncyberpunky stories (IE the Videogames).

My current character is stuck in the Barrens, hiding from authorities, while trying to raise the final amount of money to retire, AND make peace with his inner Dog Totem. This means getting runs to fill the bank account one night, helping out the local shaman lodge in the other, and having firefights with lone star cops in another.

TL;DR: You can mix doing shadowruns for money, story arcs for personal goals, and skirmishes with local gangs and stuff. No need to do ONLY one of those. :)
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 26, 2020, 04:05:05 pm
Quote from: Itachi;1136539
My current character is stuck in the Barrens, hiding from authorities, while trying to raise the final amount of money to retire, AND make peace with his inner Dog Totem.

All sound just like a mild sidegrade at best from the mercenary business. As I said it doesn't deal with protection or change. Just being a wild dog fighting at the scraps of unchanging monoliths.
I can have money arcs, personal goals, and skirmishes with local gangs while also having a neat impactful story with larger consequences at stake where it doesn't feel contrived that I'm at the center of.

It feels like Shadowrun is designed in such a way that without magical MacGuffins or AI intervention, 95% of the world is not designed with players in mind.

Edit:

I'm reading 2e materials and I'm not super getting the spot where its all that better than 4e in writing.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Spinachcat on June 26, 2020, 06:15:01 pm
I disagree. The SR world was designed with players in mind, but it's about the mercenary business and being a wild dog fighting at the scraps of unchanging monoliths. It's akin to Dark Sun or Warhammer in a way. There are universal constants that few campaigns will ever overturn, but the excitement for players is making their mark, perhaps even making things in some local a bit better. SR might be colorful and glitzy, but there's a grimdark core to cyberpunk.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Itachi on June 26, 2020, 06:55:34 pm
@Shrieking Banshee, if you want to have an impact in the world I don't think Shadowrun, or most other cyberpunk games, are really for you. Scraping at the foot of monoliths (and getting smashed if noticed) is part of the premise of these games. The most you usually  change is at your personal level, like the example I gave above: your rivals, allies, neighbourhood, etc.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 26, 2020, 07:03:14 pm
Quote from: Spinachcat;1136569
It's akin to Dark Sun or Warhammer in a way.

It's funny because I just picked up Dark Sun again.....And Dark Sun is a more interesting, lively, and player supporting setting. Because despite being Sorcerer Kings, they got nothing on Shadowruns megacorporations. Because no matter how many spells the sorcerer-kings have, they don't have their plot armor and nonsense economics.

Even in dooming and hopeless adventure modules designed to be a meatgrinder for players, outside of the literal plot armor for the Dragon, it has ideas for how the players could interact with the world and the influence they could wield.
While even in beloved Shadowrun Modules, the player's side observer bit players at most mostly there to watch events unfold and not really change in the long run by their efforts.

Both writing teams were influenced by a metaplot. But in one metaplot the world became better and with ways to make it better both large and small (Too nice even), in another metaplot, the writers just liked introducing more and more boogeymen. And Warhammer blew up to the satisfaction of absolutely nobody.
Grimdark is indeed a setting type I hate. It's not the miserable setting its the lack of player agency.

I found Shadowrun to be the best in its videogames (Which I believe are cannon) because it was about the PCs stopping calamity and not the Writers pets.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Itachi on June 26, 2020, 07:15:49 pm
Actually, some SR modules are about saving the world or stopping calamities:

- in Universal Brotherhood you save some people and stop an important center of the "church", not unlike what you do in the deadman switch videogame.

- In Renraku Arcology Shutdown, your team put an end to the rogue AI Deus fortress and pets.

- In Bug Hunt your team enters contained some in Chicago to help Ares to destroy the hive.

Etc.

It's there too if you look for it. I just don't think saving the world is a popular trope here as in other genres.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 26, 2020, 07:35:36 pm
Quote from: Itachi;1136579
It's there too if you look for it. I just don't think saving the world is a popular trope here as in other genres.

I gotta apologize I got kinda charged needlessly. I think something about the 2e Shadowrun writing made me really irritated.

But I see those, I think I might have read one of the worse ones. I still wish then if the focus was on low-level tribal conflicts and deals with gangs: Focus on the gangs and not the megacorps.

Anybody played the game Huntdown (https://youtu.be/QepvIm_-NHQ)? You're effectively a Shadowrunner there, but the focus is on the gangs you will have an impact on and not the megacorp employing you.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Spinachcat on June 26, 2020, 07:38:26 pm
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136577
It's funny because I just picked up Dark Sun again.....And Dark Sun is a more interesting, lively, and player supporting setting. Because despite being Sorcerer Kings, they got nothing on Shadowruns megacorporations. Because no matter how many spells the sorcerer-kings have, they don't have their plot armor and nonsense economics.


You're 100% right about metaplot armor, and I often forget about metaplot in settings because I rarely use any metaplot and just take ideas from the corebook and run my own campaign independent from whatever canon.

I don't think grimdark requires the lack of player agency.

Ravenloft is grimdark and the core concept of the campaign is escaping Ravenloft, thus ending the campaign. In Dark Sun, your PCs could overthrow a Sorcerer-King, but the likelihood is low and they exist like gods in the setting. There's plenty PCs can independently do and achieve, yet the conceits of the setting can stay intact.

In cyberpunk, the megacorps are self-perpetuating. They can be brought down, often by other megacorps, but that only leads to new corps rising and the cycle continues. That's a problem in SR somewhat because people have their favorite corps and they are a big part of the beloved IP, thus their megaplot armor. In my cyberpunk games, there's constant corporate turmoil (and a sneaking suspicion there's only one corporation behind them all).

If the PCs somehow altered society to its core, then you're now playing post-cyberpunk which would be fine, but not cyberpunk anymore.

Also in SR, there's a really weird symbiosis in the setting. The corps are both the PC's enemy and their patron. Its common for the corp your team hurts the most to be the corp who offers you top dollar for your next mission.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 26, 2020, 07:50:37 pm
Quote from: Spinachcat;1136584
I don't think grimdark requires the lack of player agency.

This may be a internet semantics bullshit thing but I believe that is at its core. Grim means no man can change the world. Dark means the world sucks in overwhelming ways. Grimdark means the world is fucked and you can do nothing about it.
Noblebright is the opposite. Noble means great heroes and individuals can change the world. Bright means the world is awesome (If not unsafe). Noblebright means the world is full of wonder and you can do you.
So a Nobledark setting is a world of horrors but something can be done about it. Most D&D settings fall into this, and I see Dark Sun and really even Lovecraft falling into this (The stories end with the characters driving the evil off, not all dying).

I also like Ravenloft. I'm not against a grim tone really. It's about the writing focus really.

My issue with the Cyberpunk Genre is when Corporations are somehow neither corporations nor governments. They are just balls of evil that kick puppies for no reason. I find also the existence of Shadowrunners as listed in Shadowrun implausible.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Spinachcat on June 26, 2020, 08:20:24 pm
Cyberpunk 2020 is a far more plausible setting than Shadowrun. No debate there. I've never looked to SR for any logic outside its own internal concepts. But imposing logic on most settings in games and movies causes a breakdown in believablity.

I do agree there's semantics issue regarding Grimdark. It's helpful to see your definition. From where you're standing, I understand why cyberpunk doesn't work for you. I don't see where Noblebright and cyberpunk would mesh. In my mind, grimdark is where the odds are stacked against you in a major way, so you revel in minor victories. In Noblebright, its expected you'll blow up the Death Star and slay the Emperor. The evil wizard and his dragon army will be defeated and good share reign in the land once more. Both are awesome and great fun, but as with all things, it depends on your group.

BTW, there's no reason you have to follow the SR canon for your game. The corps' alleged power could be a facade worthy of the French courts and in reality, the whole deck of cards is one push from crashing down. Maybe there's really not an ounce of truth to the propaganda and the entire economic system is a sham. Then your campaign could easily be about local issues after the corps collapse, nations try to rise again, gangs rule the streets and the PCs trying to raise up a new society.

But now we're out of cyberpunk and into a post-apocalyptic genre.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Itachi on June 26, 2020, 08:40:58 pm
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136585
This may be a internet semantics bullshit thing but I believe that is at its core. Grim means no man can change the world. Dark means the world sucks in overwhelming ways. Grimdark means the world is fucked and you can do nothing about it.
Noblebright is the opposite. Noble means great heroes and individuals can change the world. Bright means the world is awesome (If not unsafe). Noblebright means the world is full of wonder and you can do you.
So a Nobledark setting is a world of horrors but something can be done about it. Most D&D settings fall into this, and I see Dark Sun and really even Lovecraft falling into this (The stories end with the characters driving the evil off, not all dying).

I also like Ravenloft. I'm not against a grim tone really. It's about the writing focus really.

My issue with the Cyberpunk Genre is when Corporations are somehow neither corporations nor governments. They are just balls of evil that kick puppies for no reason. I find also the existence of Shadowrunners as listed in Shadowrun implausible.
Yep, I agree. Shadowrun would be Grimdark instead of Nobledark. You're not supposed to rely dethrone the corps otherwise the whole premise of the game breaks.


Potentially interesting tangent:

Do you know the game Apocalypse World? It has a reverse correlation to Shadowrun that just came to mind: In it, there's this archetype called "The Operator", basically a "Fixer" who have a crew of operatives working for him. This crew can be the other players if they want, or they can be NPCs. Anyway, the interesting part is: here the "shadowruns" are downtime rolls, whose benefits or complications reflect on the Operator player. But the actual game sessions in Apocalypse World are about the Operator player following his personal agenda and goals while interacting and changing the world around him. So it's like Shadowrun if you rolled runs as downtime rolls and focused on your runner personal life, goals, and the world around.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 26, 2020, 08:42:10 pm
Quote from: Spinachcat;1136592
Cyberpunk 2020 is a far more plausible setting than Shadowrun. No debate there. I've never looked to SR for any logic outside its own internal concepts. But imposing logic on most settings in games and movies causes a breakdown in believablity.

Call it a pet peeve I suppose. Something about the way Megacorps are done in so much Cyberpunk rubs me the wrong way. Because I find the true horror of a megacorp isn't its sinister agenda (That's the cherry on top) its usually just the dulldrum of it all.
I really like the Cyberpunk movie 'Repo-Men' for it. The Corporation pays mercenaries to repossess its mechanical organs...Pretty much horrific murder, and misleads customers to buy stuff they can't afford.

But they are selling a genuine lifesaving product. And outside of scummy marketing, they repo the product instead of imposing slavery and at least even TRY to make payment plans for their customers.

Quote
But now we're out of cyberpunk and into a post-apocalyptic genre.

I figured it out. Its a case of framing. The game puts so much focus on the Corporations, and their Structures, and the plans of the Dragons and the super uber spirits, and the invincible indestructible AI, but the players are not really meant to interact with it 95% of the time. It's like a D&D game where 90% of the setting supplements were about the wars between the gods and the detailing of the abysses' power structure while wanting you to play from level 5-10 max. And then maybe once in a while mentioned that Orcs are doing something unimportant somewhere. It feels like a tease.

Because as I pointed out I really liked the tone of many a cyberpunk film (Repo Men ends with a genuinely not-happy ending and I LOVED it for that ending).

I think I would be happy with just scavenging if the game spent more writing on fleshing it out, rather then the ivory towers I can't reach.

TLDR: Shadowrun makes small scale stuff feel unimportant in writing and then expects you to focus your characters on it.

Quote from: Itachi;1136596
Do you know the game Apocalypse World? It has a reverse correlation to Shadowrun that just came to mind: In it, there's this archetype called "The Operator", basically a "Fixer" who have a crew of operatives working for him. This crew can be the other players if they want, or they can be NPCs. Anyway, the interesting part is: here the "shadowruns" are downtime rolls, whose benefits or complications reflect on the Operator player. But the actual game sessions in Apocalypse World are about the Operator player following his personal agenda and goals and changing while interacting and changing the world around him. So it's like Shadowrun if you rolled runs as downtime rolls and focused on your runner personal life, goals, and the world around.

Sounds neat.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Omega on June 27, 2020, 08:02:52 am
One of my players way back was one of the writers for the SNES Shadowrun video game. Still one of my favourite SNES games and I have the odd distinction of being one of the few, possibly only people to ever get the whole crew out alive at the end.

Shadowrun is one of those RPGs that has with later editions lost the spark of its original setting in some way, or several ways.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 27, 2020, 09:25:16 am
Quote from: Omega;1136654
Shadowrun is one of those RPGs that has with later editions lost the spark of its original setting in some way, or several ways.

Having read newer materials and now reading older materials: I don't really see it. I hear everybody mention it but the writing is about the same (MORE annoying in some places even)
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: lordmalachdrim on June 27, 2020, 11:38:57 am
As a fan of Older Shadowrun I miss when it was linked with EarthDawn. Sadly with the change in ownership of the respective IPs they are no longer linked and the need to enforce that has caused issues with the setting, storyline, and feel of the world for those that have been longtime fans.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: sureshot on June 27, 2020, 11:45:59 am
Quote from: lordmalachdrim;1136680
As a fan of Older Shadowrun I miss when it was linked with EarthDawn. Sadly with the change in ownership of the respective IPs they are no longer linked and the need to enforce that has caused issues with the setting, storyline, and feel of the world for those that have been longtime fans.

What bothers me is they go through such a big set-up to link both including writing a Shadowrun novel showing that show Earthdawn NPCs are still alive in Shadowrun. Only to throw it all aside so that FASA could focus on the VOR the Maelstrom rpg in a very misguided attempt to compete with Games workshop and it worked out so well for them.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Itachi on June 27, 2020, 12:14:37 pm
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136664
Having read newer materials and now reading older materials: I don't really see it. I hear everybody mention it but the writing is about the same (MORE annoying in some places even)
I think what most fans of old editions miss is:

1. Shadowtalk. This was a section present in all FASA supplements where known people in the setting talked about gossip, conspiray theories or simply teased each other on chat rooms, relating to that suplement stuff. It oozed flavor and made the readers get aquainted and even cheering for some setting personas. It was lost in 4th edition.

2. Iconic adventures that set the tone for what was to come: Mercurial, Universal Brotherhood, Harlequin, Bug City, Super Tuesday, Renraku Arcology Shutdown. Even the videogames drank from them (Deadman Switch is a retelling of sorts of Queen Euphoria and UB).

3. Aesthetics. Earlier editions were more dirty and grim (probably due to Bradstreet) while also edgy and funny in a way (probably due to Laubenstein), and the focus on Seattle and the West meant an exotic mix of amerindianism (salish, aztlan) + urban collapse (barrens) + hi-tech (corps) that the artists really brought to life (just look at the cover and logo in first page). Later editions lost this "soul" when they went for a more global/international appeal.

4. Distinct Magical traditions: as an extension of the lose of focus on the American West, the lost of specific systems for each magi tradition (hermetic, shamanic, posession, blood) was seen as another step into a more flavorless state.

Overall, early Shadowrun had a very peculiar vision that was well realized by the writers and artists of the time, and which started to dilute through 3e and was lost by 4e. 5e tried to capture it again with mixed results (I liked some of it) but the spark wasn't there anymore. I think we can blame this on the times. Any product of the 80s would drink from the slightly sarcastic, and absurd, grimdarkness of the time, and Shadowrun wasn't different (see SLA Industries, CP2020 and Vampire 1e, or even Robocop, Terminator and Escape from New York). But of course all this is subjective. The most it can do is help a modern fan to understand the appeal of earlier editions in the eyes of an old fan. It's all a matter of opinion in the end. ;)
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 27, 2020, 02:06:02 pm
Quote from: Itachi;1136685
1. Shadowtalk. This was a section present in all FASA supplements where known people in the setting talked about gossip, conspiray theories or simply teased each other on chat rooms, relating to that suplement stuff. It oozed flavor and made the readers get aquainted and even cheering for some setting personas. It was lost in 4th edition.

Not that I'm going to defend the writing quality of 4th edition or the like but it was not. While I do in general remember to allot more gossip in things I can't remember in specific, there was at least gossip in the Dragon spinoff book thing. I think there was even a dedicated book just for gossip.

Quote
2. Iconic adventures that set the tone for what was to come: Mercurial, Universal Brotherhood, Harlequin, Bug City, Super Tuesday, Renraku Arcology Shutdown. Even the videogames drank from them (Deadman Switch is a retelling of sorts of Queen Euphoria and UB).
I can see that. But they ended up as a noose on the franchise, in a way. These events and the characters within them overtook whatever impact the characters were ever supposed to have. Deadmans switch is by far the weakest of the 3 writing-wise (Cough Harlequin Cough), and I found the best by far to be Dragonfall.

It's really what turned the setting into: 'Look all these gods wandering around, and you have no influence on what they do'. It became 'THE' events that happened, and everything afterward is just duller knockoff effects.

Quote
3. Aesthetics. Earlier editions were more dirty and grim (probably due to Bradstreet) while also edgy and funny in a way (probably due to Laubenstein), and the focus on Seattle and the West meant an exotic mix of amerindianism (salish, aztlan) + urban collapse (barrens) + hi-tech (corps) that the artists really brought to life (just look at the cover and logo in first page). Later editions lost this "soul" when they went for a more global/international appeal.

I can see that. I think its focus on Black and White Artwork. Shadowrun 2e material stuff looks really goofy (not really gritty at all) when in color. I still find myself preferring TSR artwork as that generally focused on the environment as opposed to lots of pictures of people posing, so this isn't just a thing about 'Me like modern color'.

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4. Distinct Magical traditions: as an extension of the lose of focus on the American West, the lost of specific systems for each magi tradition (hermetic, shamanic, posession, blood) was seen as another step into a more flavorless state.

The American west can stuff it. Hippie dippy American Indian humping (mixed in with warped and distorted environmentalism) is one of the most annoying and egregious elements of the 2e writing I found. It's all the more egregious and frustrating with the modern contrast of what the American west actually IS. Mechanics wise may be something else.

Quote
Overall, early Shadowrun had a very peculiar vision that was well realized by the writers and artists of the time, and which started to dilute through 3e and was lost by 4e.

I can see it. A very 80s view of cyberpunk as opposed to a 2000s view of cyberpunk. Regardless of individual writing and mechanics quality, and my own distaste for many shadowrun things I feel like there is still value in that aesthetic and direction. Id say changed is the better word than lost. I think the 80s view of cyberpunk was hot. The 2000s view of cyberpunk is cold.

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But of course all this is subjective. The most it can do is help a modern fan to understand the appeal of earlier editions in the eyes of an old fan. It's all a matter of opinion in the end. ;)
It does, and I appreciate it. The classic version of Shadowrun hasn't stuck with me like classic D&D-style materials that I learned from OSR, but its interesting to hear about it retrospectively.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Omega on June 27, 2020, 02:39:09 pm
For me it was the little bits removed here and there. Bits of background changed or removed or just quietly shuffled out of focus just enough to irk. Saw this a little in 3e and then alot more in 4e.

I'd have to go back and do a side-by-side comparison and thats just not something Id want to do anytime soon.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: sureshot on June 27, 2020, 11:53:08 pm
I would say Third Edition even if Hacking and Rigging were both and are still pain in the ass to run imo.

I was willing to give Catalyst Games a free pass on one poorly edited and error filled edition. No more and probably going forward using 3E warts and all.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Tyberious Funk on June 28, 2020, 01:48:33 am
I never got into Shadowrun... I started playing CP2020 after being burned out on D&D and the last thing I wanted in my game was magic and elves.  It seemed like some kind of homebrew D&D hack -- not the rules specifically mind you, just the concept.  A few years ago, a friend left a bunch of SR books at my house and basically refused to pick them up again... "keep 'em."  They're all 2nd edition, I think.

These days I have zero interest in the game mechanics, which I understand were pretty crunchy, but I'm a little more open to the setting.  Is there a particular edition worth checking out?  Are the 2e books I already have worthwhile? Or should I read something else as a starting point?  Just to get a good sense of the setting, that is... like I said, I'm not really interested in the system.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Itachi on June 28, 2020, 04:21:31 am
I think the 4th Anniversary Edition best captures the new flavor and is the ideal intro to the setting these days. If you like it, take a look at 2nd edition if only to know where the game began and how the flavor changed from it's 80s roots.

About the system: yeah it was always overly crunchy IMO.  There are good adaptations for Blades in the Dark (here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/10b9TRMQwOqiitrE6cNWxtGSHFpXhXMtD/view?usp=drivesdk)) and Powered by the Apocalypse (here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1If8nBsl73CFxyy1x951le8VNYYVL9xDr/view?usp=drivesdk)), if that's your thing. I wish someone did it for OSR too.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee
I think the 80s view of cyberpunk was hot. The 2000s view of cyberpunk is cold.
I like this definition.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Omega on June 28, 2020, 06:38:54 am
Quote from: Tyberious Funk;1136755
These days I have zero interest in the game mechanics, which I understand were pretty crunchy,

but I'm a little more open to the setting.  Is there a particular edition worth checking out?  Are the 2e books I already have worthwhile? Or should I read something else as a starting point?  Just to get a good sense of the setting, that is... like I said, I'm not really interested in the system.


Far as I know as a player and not a DM for 2e... the rules are not all that complex once you get into actual gameplay. Chargen is where things are complex and getting a handle on dice pools in SR. In 1st ed it was a pain in the ass parsing out how the damn pool worked exactly. Past that its pretty straightforward. I assume 2e fixes some of these issues as that is the most common compliment to 2e.

Recently had a glance through the start of 3e SR and have to say its history section isnt bad really. Seems to retain most if not all the info from 1st ed and adds in events from some of the modules.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: KingCheops on June 28, 2020, 05:05:48 pm
If Deckard had in fact found a real, live toad how unsatisfying would that have been?  Earth is fucked and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

The megacorporations are monoliths -- Renraku falls and several more rise up.  They are Hydra.  All you can do is rage against the machine.

Your actions and the choices you make are what's important.  When you can't stop the monster all you have left is what you care about and what you choose to protect.  If you destroy the Rosen Association another one will just replace it.  A rocky marriage and a soul destroying job is enough to keep going if it means you can get a real animal one day.

Sure you wake up 200 years later and take out a Yakuza boss who's manipulating religious institutions to allow Meths to commit murder.  The really important thing is finding your long lost lover.  When the flesh isn't real and you're just DHF on a stack the only thing that matters is memories you can verify to be true.

The main problem with SR and ESPECIALLY in later editions is MAGIC.  Shadowrun was set up to run with the same tropes as the rest of the genre but magic can be proven to make a better world in spite of interference from the repressive force.  It's a fucking mess but I still love it.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Itachi on June 28, 2020, 06:51:13 pm
Quote from: KingCheops;1136829
The main problem with SR and ESPECIALLY in later editions is MAGIC.  Shadowrun was set up to run with the same tropes as the rest of the genre but magic can be proven to make a better world in spite of interference from the repressive force.  It's a fucking mess but I still love it.
I think Shadowrun made it's fantasy elements reinforce the genre tropes pretty well, actually. For each of those elements carry it's share of social problems: metahumans and paracritters are hunted or oppressed, magic is used to maintain the status quo or to give expression to abominable drives and creeds (like blood magic) , etc.

 You know that old saying by Gibson about "the streets finding new uses for technology" implying the technology humanity believed would make the world better actually fucked it up? Shadowrun did the same to magic and fantasy IMO.

For all it's gonzo and absurd parts, one can argue the extension that magic changed the world in Shadowrun is better thought out than your average D&D world where magic exists apparently in a bubble for adventurers, never changing settings in logical ways. In Shadowrun it did change the setting - for worst. It fucked up the world.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Omega on June 28, 2020, 07:20:12 pm
One thing that sets Shadowrun apart from the standard cyberpunk fare is that is not totally bleak and hopeless. Sure the corps are big and bad. But they are not invincible. And there are large areas that are not a mess even. Even the matrix is not a loss so far. Dangerous potentially if you poke places you shouldnt. But managable.

The PCs just tend to end up either fixing or causing messes. heh-heh.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Itachi on June 28, 2020, 07:34:05 pm
Don't know about that, Omega. The average Seattle citizen is a SINless  (non-registered person) living under the law in a coffin hotel or worse (like in the barrens), doing some moonlighting to pay the bills and trying to survive some mix of local gang/mafia/police/paracritters violence. And the lucky citizens to actually be recognized as such are wage slaves for the corps working their ass out in prison-looking enclaves.

If that's not a shitty world, I don't know what is.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 28, 2020, 07:47:01 pm
Quote from: Itachi;1136846
The average Seattle citizen
Changes depending on author or supplement. One thing I noted consistently is just how poorly Shadowrun visualizes its worlds through images and text. There are only vague impressions.
Or not even ultra poorly but contradictorily.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Itachi on June 28, 2020, 09:08:37 pm
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136849
Changes depending on author or supplement.
But not much. It has always been near this:

https://shadowrun.fandom.com/wiki/Seattle


Quote
One thing I noted consistently is just how poorly Shadowrun visualizes its worlds through images and text. There are only vague impressions.
Or not even ultra poorly but contradictorily.
I think it's good at visualising shadowruns but yeah, the day to day of cities is lacking. Here I think newer editions are better than old ones. 4e Anniversary in particular has some good pics of day to day life, IIRC.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 28, 2020, 09:16:02 pm
Quote from: Itachi;1136866
But not much. It has always been near this:

The hardcore written numbers don't matter when the authors ignore them or interpret them in different ways. A USA slum is very different from an Indian slum for instance. Poverty means different things to different people at different times.
Allot of this has to do with the 'punk' of cyberpunk being largely uneducated towards economics.

This may also be by design as the contents of the books are sometimes written with the assumption that the contexts within are biased and not objective.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Itachi on June 29, 2020, 02:11:41 am
Well, the numbers matter to give a picture of how shitty the situation in Seattle is. If 33% of a total 4 mi population is below poverty line, and another 2 million is not even registered, then you have more than half the total population living in shitty conditions. Besides that, you have a district literally destroyed by a volcano and another destroyed by a nuclear meltdown. The former is a hotbed for paranormal hazards and the later for gangs and crime. Neither have coverage from the police, and millions of citizens live in them.

So even if the authors diverge on details, it's still a dystopia through and through. Or at least it was in older editions. I stopped following after 4e.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 29, 2020, 02:34:25 am
Quote from: Itachi;1136902
Well, the numbers matter to give a picture of how shitty the situation in Seattle is.
I feel like giggling everytime cyberpunk seatle is brought up because its steadily hurdling that way, but mainly through its coddling identity politics bullshit. I guess thats why I have trouble taking seatle seriously as a place for anything. So Im not left with a distinct impression that seatle is really any different in Shadowrun.
At the same time the authors bring up native americans living in harmony with the environment and complete and utter hippy bullshit. It also really bothered me that Russia ends up embracing paganism in the rural areas when the rural areas are hardcore catholic. I can sorta see some of Southern Latin America embracing traditional values (having visited), but russia has not been in any way pagan (outside of fairytales and the like but under that logic england is pagan too) for hundreds of years. Its not a change that was forced on it by an outside source.

Im not sure why Shadowrun treating spirituality as exclusively an aspect of native americans and pagans as something that bugs me so much (Im not even christian).
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Mishihari on June 29, 2020, 04:19:07 am
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136535
I always have trouble coming up with plots or things I find interesting in cyberpunk settings without ending the cyberpunk. I'm not super interested in endless mercenary jobs, and changing the world would just be grimy miserable domestic terrorism with no real positive outcome.

To a certain extent in stories that motivate me, I want something to protect or something to change to the better. And the only sort of stories of that in Shadowrun require very uncyberpunky stories (IE the Videogames).

The Shadowrun and cyberpunk is not for you.  No big deal, just move on to another genre.  If you want to play Shadowrun you're going to have to change a lot to enjoy it, and it's easier to start elsewhere.

I'm kind of the opposite in that I _don't_ want the setting I'm playing in to change.  I pick a setting to play a particular type of game, and if it changes, then I no longer am playing the type of game I chose.  I generally prefer brighter settings as well, but when I want to play cyberpunk, I want to stick with the genre.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Mishihari on June 29, 2020, 04:21:37 am
As to the OP, for Shadowrun I'm more of a reader than a player, but I really enjoyed the setting and aesthetic of 1E.  I even enjoyed the game-fiction books, which is highly unusual for me.  A lot of the later stuff I saw, not sure which editions(s) was not as engaging.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Omega on June 29, 2020, 12:13:49 pm
Quote from: Itachi;1136846
Don't know about that, Omega. The average Seattle citizen is a SINless


That is Seattle, a melting pot of of corporate evils and crime and monsters and all the rest. Chicago is actually exponentially worse as its become a walled off bug hive by 3rd ed. But move away from the trouble spots and things often mellow out a little, or alot till you get to the next knot of trouble. I think thats part of why I like Shadowrun more than CP2020. It presents a slightly more upbeat cyberpunk landscape. Whereas Marvels 2099 cyberpunk setting is practically the diametric opposite. Pretty bleak and hopeless. oddly enough Nights Edge for CP2020 is at times fairly upbeat despite the horrors going on in the shadows. And at others its pretty bleak.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Omega on June 29, 2020, 12:18:59 pm
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136849
Changes depending on author or supplement. One thing I noted consistently is just how poorly Shadowrun visualizes its worlds through images and text. There are only vague impressions.
Or not even ultra poorly but contradictorily.


I think its more that the world of Shadowrun is not just a one-note setting. Its got alot of nuance and variety. And alot of upbeat to counter the downbeat. I mean the very background is all about the people resisting the corps, and winning. Sure the corps havent stopped. But at every turn theres someone somewhere eventually thwarting them.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Itachi on June 29, 2020, 01:00:19 pm
Quote from: Omega;1136954
I think its more that the world of Shadowrun is not just a one-note setting. Its got alot of nuance and variety. And alot of upbeat to counter the downbeat.
Yeah this is true.

 
Quote
I mean the very background is all about the people resisting the corps, and winning.
But this is not. :p

The world is ruled by the big 10 corps. The corporate council is the UN equivalent. The central world bank is controlled by them. And the people who have a good life is owned by them. The corps won.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 29, 2020, 01:30:30 pm
Quote from: Itachi;1136957
But this is not. :p
Again-inconsistent worldbuilding and theming. Sometimes the corps just wield a lot of influence and still care about the nations they are in, at other times they have their own armies and armadas for no reason. At times being a 'wage slave' is just a pejorative, at other times it's literal.
When people can't agree on the same read information that tells me it's not very consistent or portrayed well.
At times the corps have all the information and can track anything and anybody down, at other times they hire people that don't wear face masks and somehow that's not more compromising than using your own employees.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Spike on June 29, 2020, 03:04:14 pm
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136535
I always have trouble coming up with plots or things I find interesting in cyberpunk settings without ending the cyberpunk. I'm not super interested in endless mercenary jobs, and changing the world would just be grimy miserable domestic terrorism with no real positive outcome.

To a certain extent in stories that motivate me, I want something to protect or something to change to the better. And the only sort of stories of that in Shadowrun require very uncyberpunky stories (IE the Videogames).



If I may interject:

This is an interestingly misguided sentiment.   If you read a fair amount of Cyberpunk literature you'll note that they inevitably end with a drastic, setting altering event, with an uncertain future implied, a change of the status quo.  While the genre is actually older than Neuromancer, that seminal work ends with digital gods breeding, fulfilling one of the few previously impossible (for digital) demands of Life, reproduction.  The Solid Light trilogy ends with a copy of the Idoru climbing out of every single one of the nano-fabricators in the world (which, in setting, included basically every single 7-11), and each case this is made possible by the actions of what could be called 'Player Characters', allowing for the distinction between mediums.

So from a purely cyberpunk aesthetic, you are spot on in wanting to play a game that actually ends the Cyberpunk. Congrats on getting the core conceit of the setting: Cyberpunk is by nature transitional, a period of decay before a rebirth, if I can be a bit poetic.

Where you go wrong, in my humble opinion, is in somehow feeling that Shadowrun will not allow you to do this.. somehow. An RPG, ANY RPG is nothing more than a toolbox. If you give me a carpenter's toolbox and some wood, you can insist I make shelves, but you can't really stop me from making a cabinet, can you?   This is so fundamental to tabletop RPGs, that I feel lesser for even having to tell it to you. What, exactly, about the books prevents you from making your own shadowrun stories where your 'runners'... change the world?  I've owned Shadowrun since its initial release (minus about two or three months), in... I want to say 1989... and not once in the three decades since has an armed man from FASA, FanPro or Catalyst shown up at my house (not even when I lived 'in the neighborhood', so to speak), to tell me I was playing it wrong.

More: While Shadowrun does have a default campaign 'style' right out of the box, it lacks any sort of inherent mechanics to reinforce that style.  There are no weird rule workarounds necessary if your players, in session one or session thirty, decide to turn the setting assumption on its head and go down to sign up to be permanent employees of Aztechnology, or for that matter if they dig up an actual politician and begin working in the shadows to revitalize the old nation-state against the oppressive mega-corporations, nor if they simply head into the Barrens (Pick one) and simply start carving out a State of their own as warlords, and turn the game into a weird Sim-City Simulator.  

Like most classic RPGs, and a fair number of modern ones, Shadowrun gives you rules to make a person, to know what they can do and what they can't do in the simulated reality of the Game World. It gives you reasonably exhaustive lists of things they can buy, make or steal.  And that is it. What you do with those rules is no more closed than any other game, and is somewhat more open than many.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 29, 2020, 03:12:19 pm
Quote from: Spike;1136973
Where you go wrong, in my humble opinion, is in somehow feeling that Shadowrun will not allow you to do this.. somehow.

I agree. My belief was Shadowrun was a game that didn't WANT you to be able to change the world. It wanted to be a setting where it was all throwaway side content to endless mercenary missions.

Its a case I felt from the writing, implications, and reading the adventures given for inspiration when I felt I was at a lack of direction. It spoke to you having to always be a pawn at which point the corporation goes 'Just as Planned'. I read Dark Sun modules for inspiration and was inspired and intrigued, but I read Shadowrun adventures for inspiration but was bored and Sullen.

Having heard others opinions and read more stuff, I think this ties into the setting falling in love too much with its own high-level antagonists and metaplots, and lacking clear writing direction. Apparently I'm not the ONLY one who thought endless scum battles beneath a polluted sky was the way to go.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Spike on June 29, 2020, 03:25:04 pm
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136976
I agree. My belief was Shadowrun was a game that didn't WANT you to be able to change the world. It wanted to be a setting where it was all throwaway side content to endless mercenary missions.

Its a case I felt from the writing, implications, and reading the adventures given for inspiration when I felt I was at a lack of direction. It spoke to you having to always be a pawn at which point the corporation goes 'Just as Planned'. I read Dark Sun modules for inspiration and was inspired and intrigued, but I read Shadowrun adventures for inspiration but was bored and Sullen.

Having heard others opinions and read more stuff, I think this ties into the setting falling in love too much with its own high-level antagonists and metaplots, and lacking clear writing direction. Apparently I'm not the ONLY one who thought endless scum battles beneath a polluted sky was the way to go.

Who cares what the 'game' wants? Its a fucking book, man. I'm not worried about hurting its feelings in the slightest, why are you?

But let me buck that up a bit more.  Why shouldn't the setting present itself as eternal and predestined, immune from the vissisitudes of individual action? The real world presents itself in that way all the time, and yet the real world is changed, often by individuals, all the time.  Its dystopian, it should look bad, and the powerful should look untouchable. What of it? It would be a pretty crappy dystopia if it was Hopeful!

But I get it. You are complaining about Tone. You don't like pistachio ice-cream. I get that. What I don't get is this: If you are so opposed to Shadowrun on the basis of Tone, why the hell are you almost literally one-half of all the posts in this thread explicitely about Shadowrun?  I mean: I don't like Fate, but for me that means I don't even bother to open threads that tell me they are about Fate, much less comment in them about how I don't like Fate.  Seems kinda... ludicrous.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: KingCheops on June 29, 2020, 05:50:00 pm
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136976
I agree. My belief was Shadowrun was a game that didn't WANT you to be able to change the world. It wanted to be a setting where it was all throwaway side content to endless mercenary missions.

Well as I've said Brainscan is very much my favorite SR campaign I've ever run and that has setting changing consequences.  There were a few others like the Harlequin series, Universal Brotherhood, and probably others I can't remember.

There can be big differences between the writers and especially between the line developers.  It also does try to be a kitchen sink in at least the first 2 editions where it wanted to accommodate all playstyles as opposed to later when the scope started to narrow somewhat.  Think of it as SR is to Cyberpunk+magic as FR is to D&D.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 29, 2020, 05:56:45 pm
Quote from: Spike;1136981
Who cares what the 'game' wants? Its a fucking book, man. I'm not worried about hurting its feelings in the slightest, why are you?
Tonality and implication. I could use Athas as the setting for a lovebug jamboree but that's making it somewhat complicated for myself when I could just use a lovebug setting. Tone sets direction and extrapolation of setting.
In part because I also like discussing stuff with people over the internet.
Quote
But let me buck that up a bit more.  Why shouldn't the setting present itself as eternal and predestined, immune from the vissisitudes of individual action?
Not saying it should or shouldn't, but it ties into this next spot:

Quote
But I get it. You are complaining about Tone. You don't like pistachio ice-cream. I get that. What I don't get is this: If you are so opposed to Shadowrun on the basis of Tone, why the hell are you almost literally one-half of all the posts in this thread explicitely about Shadowrun?
Because I found it interesting but I never really figured out what I could do with it. So I engaged in discussion with people that did to help me understand what I could do with it. Its tone and the way it was written made it difficult for me to come up with ideas.

Thinking of Robocop, or Huntdown, or similar stuff got me more in the zone then what I found in the books themselves.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Spike on June 29, 2020, 06:31:41 pm
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1137016
Tonality and implication. I could use Athas as the setting for a lovebug jamboree but that's making it somewhat complicated for myself when I could just use a lovebug setting. Tone sets direction and extrapolation of setting.
In part because I also like discussing stuff with people over the internet.


Fair enough, but I think this is agree to disagree territory, at the risk of sounding trite.  In my own opinion, the tone of the presented setting is merely a useful tool, and one easily discarded in favor of what I would rather do. Without changing a single fact of Arthas I could easily see running a 'love bug' sort of setting, focusing entirely on... what did they call it? Life-giver magic and simply not, as a GM, bringing in the darker aspects of the setting, such as cannibal halflings. Sure, they exist, out there, somewhere... doing... cannibalism, but that's not what the campaign is focused on, THAT is focused on using life-giver magic to turn this one little corner of the desert into a pleasant oasis...



Quote
Because I found it interesting but I never really figured out what I could do with it. So I engaged in discussion with people that did to help me understand what I could do with it. Its tone and the way it was written made it difficult for me to come up with ideas.

Thinking of Robocop, or Huntdown, or similar stuff got me more in the zone then what I found in the books themselves.


But your problem is the Medium, rather than the tone or the message. Robocop, while a movie, is much like a book. It comes to an end, and when it does, it leaves the setting changed... uncertain but brighter (perhaps ruined a bit by sequelitus, but I've never seen the sequels to Robocop...).

An RPG, any RPG*, only gives you the beginning, it gives you the setting. What you do with it is entirely up to you... and again: A dystopian system with an oppressive and unjust regime (In this case Megacorps) SHOULD feel a bit grim, and a bit hopeless... so long as the RULES don't reinforce it (and Shadowrun's rules tend to make transhuman supermen of one variety or another...), or it fails at presentation.   Is the issue a question of Pre-pack adventures?  Of course those aren't going to fundamentally and irrevocably slaughter the golden goose of the setting, and you shouldn't expect them to in any RPG.



* Yes, I am aware that many modern RPGs are now coming, not just with Metaplots, but actually coded in story arcs to be followed. This is nothing more than a catagory error on the part of the designers, as even in those cases, once the books hit hte table, the campaign, and its direction, are always the beginning of something new.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 29, 2020, 07:10:12 pm
Quote from: Spike;1137023
In my own opinion, the tone of the presented setting is merely a useful tool, and one easily discarded in favor of what I would rather do.


True and I was having trouble figuring out what I would want to do with the setting. I looked at existing adventures and was dissuaded. The core setting as it was presented left me confused as to what to do with it.

Quote
But your problem is the Medium, rather than the tone or the message.

Disagree. Usually, I would not be interested in post-apocalyptic stuff. Movies, books, games. You name it. No interest. But the artwork and the presentation of Darksun made it really interesting.

Huntdown is a videogame where you're a disposable bounty hunter hunting down gangs causing a ruckus in a post-apocalyptic city-state controlled by a mega-corporation. By the end of the game the Megacorp pretty much announces that this was all a ruse for land acquisition and that you're next in line to be hunted down. However, your employer realizes she's a loose end as well and kinda wishes you luck that she knows she won't have. But it does it with style and pizzazz. It makes even gruntwork seem cool and interesting, and the frantic energy of the setting makes even going into the abandoned subways to deal with gutter trash seem radical and neat. Huntdown is way bleaker then Shadowrun but I left it with more enjoyment than from Shadowrun.

Its a case of framing. Imagine if the D&D Monster manual was 90% only demon lords? And 90% of the adventures or modules or settings were talking about the demon lords plans and how powerful and untouchable they were, and how awesome they are and how the players should never really get a shot at defeating them, and how if they do its only because another demonlord let them.

D&D doesn't expect you to challenge demon lords for 90% of the games. I would be surprised if even 1% of a D&Ds campaign ever reached or tackled dealing with demon lords. But in D&D it makes the lower stuff feel important with a focus on the smaller players. Its because the writers are less interested in the smaller players then the proverbial demon lords. And the proverbial demonlords are even more frustrating because they primarily have plot contrivance on their side then logic or even any source of magical power.

It's like the writers are just writing for themselves. And I felt awkward to interlude into their session of smashing action figures together. While the shadowrun videogames assume a actual person being involved in their writing so it ends up stressing the impact even your low level actions have, and end up undoing many sacred shadowrun cows.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Itachi on June 29, 2020, 10:39:28 pm
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1137037
Huntdown is a videogame where you're a disposable bounty hunter hunting down gangs causing a ruckus in a post-apocalyptic city-state controlled by a mega-corporation. By the end of the game the Megacorp pretty much announces that this was all a ruse for land acquisition and that you're next in line to be hunted down. However, your employer realizes she's a loose end as well and kinda wishes you luck that she knows she won't have. But it does it with style and pizzazz. It makes even gruntwork seem cool and interesting, and the frantic energy of the setting makes even going into the abandoned subways to deal with gutter trash seem radical and neat. Huntdown is way bleaker then Shadowrun but I left it with more enjoyment than from Shadowrun.
This is just a matter of taste. The first time I put my eyes on Shadowrun (through the SNES videogame back in 1993) I was instantly hooked. It had gangs and voodoo and hackers and Uzis and shamans and corp hit squads, all in a dark and eerie atmosphere reminiscent of Blade Runner. And while I find Dark Sun very cool, I don't find it as exciting as Shadowrun. So, taste.

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D&D doesn't expect you to challenge demon lords for 90% of the games. I would be surprised if even 1% of a D&Ds campaign ever reached or tackled dealing with demon lords. But in D&D it makes the lower stuff feel important with a focus on the smaller players. Its because the writers are less interested in the smaller players then the proverbial demon lords. And the proverbial demonlords are even more frustrating because they primarily have plot contrivance on their side then logic or even any source of magical power.
I think your distaste for Shadowrun may be clouding your judgement here. See, all corebooks from all editions present various types of opposition besides corps - from organized crime to gangs, to local governments, policlubs, small companies and chains stores, rights activist groups, independent operators like fixers and johnsons, etc. And most present sample players in each category (The Ancients, Red Hot Nukes, Yakuza, Seoulpa Rings, Triads, Humanis Policlub, Tamanous, Stuffer Shack, Weapons World, Lone Star, Knight Errant, Metroplex Guard, Tir Ghosts, etc). And if you get any edition of the Seattle sourcebook that number will explode and you'll know how and where each operate.

TL;DR: there are lots of players in this world besides the corps, including small and mid tier, which can be reasonably affected by players without breaking the game or it's genre. My crew busted some gangs out of existence a couple times already (tough we prefer to subdue them into working for us :p ).

Quote from: Spike
* Yes, I am aware that many modern RPGs are now coming, not just with Metaplots, but actually coded in story arcs to be followed. This is nothing more than a catagory error on the part of the designers, as even in those cases, once the books hit hte table, the campaign, and its direction, are always the beginning of something new.
This is far from new, though. Even Shadowrun has it's share of metaplot-tied adventures and modules: Universal Brotherhood, Bug City, Renraku Arcology Shutdown, etc. all give small story arcs for the players to pursue that are later adopted by the setting's canon.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Spike on June 29, 2020, 11:14:16 pm
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1137037
True and I was having trouble figuring out what I would want to do with the setting. I looked at existing adventures and was dissuaded. The core setting as it was presented left me confused as to what to do with it.


Look, I don't mean to be excessively glib and dismissive, but honestly, your failure of imagination is entirely personal.  I mean, Shadowrun has to be somewhere in the top five of all time successful video games, which means a whole bunch of people 'got into' the setting and had no problems imagining what to do with it, and I can't for the life of me justify assuming that every single one of them was purely satisfied playing street-mercs that would inevitably be betrayed after every single mission by their employers, the way the writing for the setting seems to put it, so  clearly a significant number of players took that setting and premise and made it their own.

That YOU can't do that is, again, a PERSONAL problem. Its not a problem with the setting, the writing, the edition wars. YOU can't imagine. That's... well, its tragic, doubly so for a gamer, but I suppose it is what it is.  

And you can't really chalk this up to adventure design either. The core premise of the game is 'criminal street mercenaries working as disposable muscle for corporate espionage', and one of the first and biggest adventures involves an entirely personally driven quest to pull someone out of a scientology style cult that is secretly a front for interdimensional bugs possessing cultists as part of their plan to take over the world. Its about as far from the core premise as you can get, demanding very little 'mercenary', 'street' or 'corporate espionage' from any of the characters in order to work as a premise, and to my admitedly hazy memory, doesn't involve the promised betrayal by one's erstatz employer at the end either.  

The very first significant adventure published for this game essentially refutes every single one of your complaints about the setting, as it subverts the expected game play and it involves the player characters being involved in fundamentally altering the setting, hopefully for the better, right out the gate, and the big bad isn't even a megalithic, unstoppable, inexorable megacorporation but an heretofore negligible psuedo-religion that existed, benign and harmless, on the fringes of the setting.



Quote
Disagree. Usually, I would not be interested in post-apocalyptic stuff. Movies, books, games. You name it. No interest. But the artwork and the presentation of Darksun made it really interesting.

Huntdown is a videogame where you're a disposable bounty hunter hunting down gangs causing a ruckus in a post-apocalyptic city-state controlled by a mega-corporation. By the end of the game the Megacorp pretty much announces that this was all a ruse for land acquisition and that you're next in line to be hunted down. However, your employer realizes she's a loose end as well and kinda wishes you luck that she knows she won't have. But it does it with style and pizzazz. It makes even gruntwork seem cool and interesting, and the frantic energy of the setting makes even going into the abandoned subways to deal with gutter trash seem radical and neat. Huntdown is way bleaker then Shadowrun but I left it with more enjoyment than from Shadowrun.

Its a case of framing. Imagine if the D&D Monster manual was 90% only demon lords? And 90% of the adventures or modules or settings were talking about the demon lords plans and how powerful and untouchable they were, and how awesome they are and how the players should never really get a shot at defeating them, and how if they do its only because another demonlord let them.


Except that Shadowrun does none of that. Megacorps have fallen and the truely scary GMPC characters (the greater Dragons) have also fallen. I can't think of a single Shadowrun product that every says you can't take down a Megacorp (A greater dragon, on the other hand, but honestly if you don't/can't handwave those more or less out of existence for the good of a Campaign, I have to wonder... do you even GM, bro?).  Player Characters are, BY DEFAULT, expected to challenge Megacorporations in every single game, as the core conceit. What part of Heavily armed mercenaries doing Corporate Espionage makes you think 'jeeze, they couldn't possibly challenge a megacorp'? that's... a massive non-sequitor.  Heck, you even reference the Shadowrun vidya games positively...  which should also disprove your own god-damn point.  

The setting. ANY SETTING. Is a Starting Point. Not an End Point.  It is entirely your own personal cross to bear that somehow you can only see Shadowrun as the End Point.  

Quote
D&D doesn't expect you to challenge demon lords for 90% of the games. I would be surprised if even 1% of a D&Ds campaign ever reached or tackled dealing with demon lords. But in D&D it makes the lower stuff feel important with a focus on the smaller players. Its because the writers are less interested in the smaller players then the proverbial demon lords. And the proverbial demonlords are even more frustrating because they primarily have plot contrivance on their side then logic or even any source of magical power.


Descent into Avernus (https://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/rpg-products/baldursgate_descent) Disagrees with all of this. Suggested starting level: 1. Plot? Defeat and possibly redeem a Demon Lord.



Quote
It's like the writers are just writing for themselves. And I felt awkward to interlude into their session of smashing action figures together. While the shadowrun videogames assume a actual person being involved in their writing so it ends up stressing the impact even your low level actions have, and end up undoing many sacred shadowrun cows.


What?

WHAT?

Motherfucker: Do you have any idea at all how many writers have worked on Shadowrun? ALL OF THEM are just... smashing dolls together?   This isn't one man's little passion project setting where he can be the king of the world (Dunklezahn the dragon? Llofwyr the Dragon? Who is this GMPC God Character that runs all of Shadowrun and can't be confronted and defeated, or are you suggesting FASA, the company itself, developed an ego and wrote itself into the setting as some sort of Mary Sue in the form of... all the Megacorporations? ). In fact I could make a point, based on the cover art posted earlier in the thread just how HARD Shadowrun failed at creating signature characters, if that was even their intent.

I mean, the quoted part I'm actually replying to here is actually contradictory, in that you seem to think Shadowrun... what, wrote itself and thus fails to neglect for setting growth or character involvement, while a vidya game that has an actual writer (just one?) somehow is less prone to self insertion mary sue fanfic god characters?  Don't get me wrong, I've played and enjoyed many of the various Shadowrun Vidya Games over the years, but...


Look, maybe I'm not tracking your point here. I'm not trying to strawman, I'm trying to understand your actual complaint.

You seem to be saying, and please do correct me if I'm wrong, that Shadowrun, the RPG (not the Vidya Gaems) is Unplayable, to you, because the setting is fixed and unchangable by Player Character actions due to the existance of powerful, unstoppable God Character Mary Sue Inserts, this time in the bizzarely inhuman form of the Megacorporations themselves?

Never mind that Powerful Megacorporations are a fucking mandatory Genre Trope, hardly unique to Shadowrun.

Never Mind that the great complaint about Shadowrun among many fans for DECADES has been the motherfucking Living Setting Metaplot that explicitely contradicts the idea that the setting is unchangable, or that the Megacorporations are all powerful and Unstoppable.

And it seems like you base ALL of this off of your personal interpretation of the... artwork?  And apparently mind reading the intentions of the designers?


Or is it that Dark Sun had as its first major adventure the already written (and novelized) story of taking down a Dragon God-King, while Shadowrun's infamous Food Fight example adventure doesn't end with bringing down the entire Quikie Mart Corp?  But Dark Sun had Brom, so its cool, right?
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Spike on June 29, 2020, 11:25:25 pm
Quote from: Itachi;1137076
This is far from new, though. Even Shadowrun has it's share of metaplot-tied adventures and modules: Universal Brotherhood, Bug City, Renraku Arcology Shutdown, etc. all give small story arcs for the players to pursue that are later adopted by the setting's canon.

This is radically different in presentation, impact and form than something like Mutant:Year Zero, which assumes that you will play the game, from Start to Finish, as newly 'cloned' mutants seeking scientific utopia, and instead uncovering the secrets of your creation.  Or, for a somewhat more mainstream offering, the Scion games from White Wolf, which dedicated about half their total page count to the official White Wolf Sanctioned adventure path for Ragnarok.  

Meanwhile, if you chose not to buy or play the Universal Brotherhood Adventure, or include Bug Spirits in your games, then YOUR PERSONAL CANON for Shadowrun, they didn't happen, much as if you run a game of D&D and never play Into the Underdark.

The reason I called those Catagory Errors is because in almost all cases it (Kuro, at least of you get the second book, being an interesting exception), is that the game itself can't (and at least in Mutant: Year Zero Games, to their credit, doesn't try) force you to restrict your games to their story arcs, or even force you to attempt them.   Shrieking Banshee's arguments are so very mystifying to me on a conceptual level, since, in my three decades of gaming, I have never once run a game, nor enjoyed a game, run 'strictly' from an adventure. I've ALWAYS made the games my own, and I've always preferred my GMs to do the same (which is why the increasing trend (possibly local) towards league style play uber alles drives me utterly fucking batty, as does this design emphasis on turning table tops into rancid rotting corpses of video game rpgs.

I roll my eyes when an Author inserts his all powerful GMPC into his game, but its not a deal breaker for me since the single easiest thing for me to do is simply ignore that character's very existence at my table.

I made the reference earlier to a carptenter's tool kit, but I'm getting the weird feeling that SB only understands Flat Pack.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 29, 2020, 11:43:49 pm
Quote from: Spike;1137080
Look, I don't mean to be excessively glib and dismissive
No, you are. Be dismissive and glib, but don't be a passive-aggressive weasel about it.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Itachi on June 29, 2020, 11:55:09 pm
Quote from: Spike
This is radically different in presentation, impact and form than something like Mutant:Year Zero
Oh yeah, got your point now. You're right.

Quote from: Spike
Except that Shadowrun does none of that. Megacorps have fallen and the truely scary GMPC characters (the greater Dragons) have also fallen.
...But not by shadowrunners. Megacorps and dragons have fallen to other big players or by internal conflicts. I don't think there's any plot or evidence of runners bringing down megacorps alone. The permanence of megacorps is what ties shadowrun to it's genre. You're not obliged to follow that, but then one may argue you're not really playing Shadowrun anymore if you purge one of it's defining elements. If I invited you for a Shadowrun game but with the caveat "..only in our table we destroyed most corps and now the world is a collectivist hippie paradise", I bet your first thought would be "this isn't Shadowrun anymore". Same for a Darksun game where "in out table we reverted the defiling magic and now the world is as green as Faerun", or a Planescape game where "...in our table we destroyed Sigil and the Outer Planes and spelljamming is the only planar travel method".

So Banshee is right that, if you wanna keep playing Shadowrun, the Megacorps must continue to exist.

EDIT: He's wrong about them being the only opposition, or the setting not having actionable/changeable aspects, though.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 30, 2020, 12:26:04 am
Quote from: Itachi;1137087
So Banshee is right that, if you wanna keep playing Shadowrun, the Megacorps must continue to exist.

EDIT: He's wrong about them being the only opposition, or the setting not having actionable/changeable aspects, though.

What I mean is that I feel they are de-emphasized so much in 4th edition in what I read that it gave me the impression that they didn't exist.
By the time I got into the game all the 'Woah player impact' story elements had become cannonized and framed as corporate actions and not player actions (If they ever where player actions).
And from then on the plot largely spun its wheels with more boogeymen.

I see now there are more ways to run the game and more elements then just corporations. I still find the setting full of junk I dislike.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: CRKrueger on June 30, 2020, 01:34:26 am
Shadowrun doesn't want you to change the world?  How would you define going on an Epic Quest in the metaplanes to prevent the Horrors from coming into the Shadowrun World a couple thousand years early when the magic would be too low for even the Great Dragons to be able to survive?  A literal Save the World adventure.

The problem with 99% of Shadowrun complaints I've found stems from ignorance of the game line’s actual contents.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: KingCheops on June 30, 2020, 11:29:47 am
Quote from: Itachi;1137076
I think your distaste for Shadowrun may be clouding your judgement here. See, all corebooks from all editions present various types of opposition besides corps - from organized crime to gangs, to local governments, policlubs, small companies and chains stores, rights activist groups, independent operators like fixers and johnsons, etc. And most present sample players in each category (The Ancients, Red Hot Nukes, Yakuza, Seoulpa Rings, Triads, Humanis Policlub, Tamanous, Stuffer Shack, Weapons World, Lone Star, Knight Errant, Metroplex Guard, Tir Ghosts, etc). And if you get any edition of the Seattle sourcebook that number will explode and you'll know how and where each operate.


How could you forget the biggest villains of all?  Those asshole synthpop poseurs down the block who keep stealing your awesome keytar riffs from your edgy post-punk industrial technorock opera band and putting them in corporate jingles!
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Itachi on June 30, 2020, 12:04:56 pm
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1137096
What I mean is that I feel they are de-emphasized so much in 4th edition in what I read that it gave me the impression that they didn't exist.
By the time I got into the game all the 'Woah player impact' story elements had become cannonized and framed as corporate actions and not player actions (If they ever where player actions).
And from then on the plot largely spun its wheels with more boogeymen.

I see now there are more ways to run the game and more elements then just corporations. I still find the setting full of junk I dislike.
If you take a look at adventures you'll see that the types of job, opposition and environment is all over the place. In Mercurial you're a bodyguard for a rockband tour, in Dreamchipper/Queen Euphoria/Universal Brotherhood players do investigator work, in the Mob War arc players work for the mafia/yakuza/seoulpa/etc, in Super Tuesday and Renraku Shutdown and Bug City you work for the government, etc. Each makes players change the setting status quo in some way by being successful in the respective adventures.

Where I think they could be better is in:

1) presenting multiple ramifications to the setting based on each adventure outcomes or runners choices. Unfortunately, most assume the players will do the adventures strictly as written and see the preset consequence in the end (though there are exceptions.. I think DNA/DOA does this).

2) modules that support players acting proactively instead of being pawns to big players. Ie: some situation in the Barrens where the group must step up and lead/manage/organize a local community to survive and thrive some threat; some small business where the group creates a company of bodyguarding/investigation/corp security assessment/etc; a module for the group doubling as a street gang racket-protecting the local neighbourhood; or a module for the group leading an organized campaign against a megacorp/government. There are modules that present new roles for players (like DocWagon or Lone Star) but those still make them pawns.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 30, 2020, 12:40:25 pm
Quote from: Itachi;1137206
There are modules that present new roles for players (like DocWagon or Lone Star) but those still make them pawns.

This is the part that gave me misgivings.

If I were to run the game, I would rework the central premises somewhat to be less contradictory to how I view things. Something like thor I would NEVER see a corporation owning. I could see them constructing something like it for a government, and having the pull to use it for their own ends (or having a secret backend control method), but I could never see it being something they could or would want to own.

I don't want to run a story where the Corporations have no power, I just want more dynamism and logic too said power.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Itachi on June 30, 2020, 01:20:09 pm
While I agree the setting is full of absurd parts, the Thor weapons don't look absurd to me, if you remember the megacorps are the world new superpowers. If our current powers (USA, China, Russia, etc) have access to weapons of mass destruction, why wouldn't the future powers too?
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 30, 2020, 02:36:37 pm
Quote from: Itachi;1137224
While I agree the setting is full of absurd parts, the Thor weapons don't look absurd to me, if you remember the megacorps are the world new superpowers.

Because I find the idea of corporate superpowers (Especially the way done in Shadowrun) to be dumb. Megacorps are to real corporations as Sauron is to real-world medieval tyrants. While I like Sauron, he exists more as a metaphorical embodiment of evil propelled by magic than a realistic character. Shadowrun's corporations are written to be more intimidating for the average reader and embody evil rather than have any sort of realistic grounding or logic.

It's like when people say 'WWII or FDR ended the great depression' without asking how or why. It's repeated so much it's just assumed.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: KingCheops on June 30, 2020, 03:04:18 pm
So you can suspend your disbelief for Sauron but not for megacorps.  I hate to break it to you but there is literally nothing for you in SR.  Thread closed?
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 30, 2020, 03:18:23 pm
Quote from: KingCheops;1137245
I hate to break it to you but there is literally nothing for you in SR.  Thread closed?

How very presumptuous of you. You're saying 'If you don't like Megacorporations your not ALLOWED to like anything else in Shadowrun' which I find somewhat infantile.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: KingCheops on June 30, 2020, 03:29:53 pm
You've been acting like your namesake for 7 fucking pages and rejecting all arguments.  Yikes.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 30, 2020, 03:39:30 pm
Quote from: KingCheops;1137254
You've been acting like your namesake for 7 fucking pages and rejecting all arguments.  Yikes.

OK this is just puerile namecalling. I'm done.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Itachi on June 30, 2020, 03:49:29 pm
Quote from: KingCheops;1137245
So you can suspend your disbelief for Sauron but not for megacorps.
Yeah, this.

Banshee, the corps embody SR themes as much as Sauron does for Middle Earth' ones. Humanity's greed, egotism, ruthlessness, etc.

Also, don5t know if it helps, but you must remember SR is a post-apocalyptic setting of sorts. In the awakening the world ended and began anew. Our telecom infra (including the internet) was rebuilt from scratch. The earth spilled lava and earthquakes everywhere. Wars ended countries. Pathogens killed millions. A third of the world population perished. My point being: the sixth world is not a continuation of ours, but a reset.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: CRKrueger on June 30, 2020, 04:06:28 pm
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1137239
Because I find the idea of corporate superpowers (Especially the way done in Shadowrun) to be dumb. Megacorps are to real corporations as Sauron is to real-world medieval tyrants. While I like Sauron, he exists more as a metaphorical embodiment of evil propelled by magic than a realistic character. Shadowrun's corporations are written to be more intimidating for the average reader and embody evil rather than have any sort of realistic grounding or logic.

It's like when people say 'WWII or FDR ended the great depression' without asking how or why. It's repeated so much it's just assumed.


So Corporations today don't have their own Communication satellites, their own intelligence operatives, their own security forces, their own Banks?  Of course they do.

You fail to understand, I think, what extraterritoriality means.  It doesn't mean that Corps get a large chunk of the geography and have to run it like a government.  It means they get certain areas, like embassies, where the laws of the resident country do not apply.  They're not burdened with any social programs, their entire "citizenry" are productive members of the corporate society, or they find themselves fired.  Many corporate citizens aren't even in extraterritorial housing, so the host government has to support them with police, fire, EMT, garbage, utilities, etc.  The Corps get the best of both worlds.  They get a workforce that no government laws can protect and the government in most cases have to still pick up the tab.

It's no different than getting cities to pick up the tab for stadiums or counties and states to pick up the tab for Amazon Distribution Centers, or at least pay for the privilege with tax breaks.  It's just a larger scale, because governments are weaker, and corporations are richer.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 30, 2020, 05:28:23 pm
Quote from: Itachi;1137256
Yeah, this.
Sauron is powered by magic. Megacorporations are powered by plot contrivance.

Quote
Also, don5t know if it helps

It doesn't. Because none of what you listed historically resulted in any corporations buying or maintaining military assets. Rather the opposite: the corporations would have their resources pillaged and their stuff taken. Whatever breakdown in the national military would effect corporations twenty times more.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1137258
So Corporations today don't have their own Communication satellites, their own intelligence operatives, their own security forces, their own Banks?  Of course they do.
I find your argument runs on the logic that's not really expandable.
It's like a setting where I find the idea of a country club taking over the world with their navy preposterous, and your counterexample is that country clubs have boats in reality, so them expanding to aircraft carriers is perfectly within reason.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Itachi on June 30, 2020, 06:24:20 pm
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1137269
Sauron is powered by magic. Megacorporations are powered by plot contrivance.
I would say both are powered by whatever fictional argument the authors pulled from their asses. The difference is the former doesn't bother you while the later do. I'm the opposite, btw, as I see Sauron and the whole LotR affair as a silly moralist christian fantasy (though I wouldn't mind suspending my disbelief to play a game in that world). But I digress.

So, I think the thread fufilled it's purpose in helping you to confirm that SR is not for you. :)
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 30, 2020, 07:25:35 pm
Quote from: Itachi;1137275
I would say both are powered by whatever fictional argument the authors pulled from their asses. The difference is the former doesn't bother you while the later do. I'm the opposite, btw, as I see Sauron and the whole LotR affair as a silly moralist christian fantasy (though I wouldn't mind suspending my disbelief to play a game in that world).


You can't suspend your disbelief for a demon, but are willing and insistent that corporations composed of actual humans are effectively them. Sauron is moralistic but making real people behave as evil as possible to the point of nonsense, just to be evil isn't. Interesting.

Quote
So, I think the thread fufilled it's purpose in helping you to confirm that SR is not for you. :)

No, its primarily told me that the Shadowrun fanbase is strangely petulant and defensive.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Spike on June 30, 2020, 07:31:00 pm
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1137086
No, you are. Be dismissive and glib, but don't be a passive-aggressive weasel about it.

You don't understand, clearly.  I've never had a problem being an asshole to someone on this forum, to their face.  The problem you might be having in understanding my sincerity is that I decide to respond to a longish post, and it takes time to respond to posts piece by piece, with my opinion of you point changing the deeper I delve into what you actually write.

So when I write in my opening bit that "I don't mean X" that literally means I don't want to come across that way, as it seems... when I'm writing that... that you are genuinely struggling with some issue, or engaging in my argument. Later in that same post I am no longer apologetic because I am increasingly convinced that you are arguing in bad faith, and entirely engaged in attention seeking behavior and making deeply insincere arguments, so my tone changes as I post.

Luckily for your narcissistic tendencies, I realize that arguing with people to change their minds is futile, and not even the point of a public disagreement, so you get your regular supply of attention, and I get to hash out my ideas of, in this case Shadowrun, for the benefit of myself and any curious readers of the thread.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Itachi on June 30, 2020, 07:47:33 pm
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1137282
You can't suspend your disbelief for a demon, but are willing and insistent that corporations composed of actual humans are effectively them. Sauron is moralistic but making real people behave as evil as possible to the point of nonsense, just to be evil isn't. Interesting.
You've read me wrong. I have played in games similar to LotR theme-wise and had good fun. I just don't find it any less absurd than Shadowrun or any other fantasy game.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: CRKrueger on July 01, 2020, 08:15:55 am
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1137269
Sauron is powered by magic. Megacorporations are powered by plot contrivance.



It doesn't. Because none of what you listed historically resulted in any corporations buying or maintaining military assets. Rather the opposite: the corporations would have their resources pillaged and their stuff taken. Whatever breakdown in the national military would effect corporations twenty times more.


I find your argument runs on the logic that's not really expandable.
It's like a setting where I find the idea of a country club taking over the world with their navy preposterous, and your counterexample is that country clubs have boats in reality, so them expanding to aircraft carriers is perfectly within reason.


Oh, hey look, a complete ignoring of the points replaced with strawman disguised as reductio ad absurdam.

Go ahead and define "standing army" for me.  Does Monsanto have a Standing Army?

You're the one who is ignoring every piece of evidence existing from both our world and the Shadowrun one that shows that Shadowrun's Megas if anything are just a natural extension of Corporations today.

I don't really expect any answers to salient points because you've been acting just like a child who puts his fingers in his ears and cries "Nyah Nyah Nyah!  Writers don't know Economics!"
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: Itachi on July 03, 2020, 10:26:02 am
I just saw the official website for the new 6th edition, and woah... this is gorgeous!

https://www.shadowrunsixthworld.com/

(click "new to Shadowrun" at the corner and navigate through the topics)


If the corebook is as good as this, it may win as my fave art treatment ever for Shadowrun.
Title: The definitive Shadowrun
Post by: lordmalachdrim on July 03, 2020, 11:13:28 am
Quote from: Itachi;1137740
If the corebook is as good as this

Go to resources and look at the two completely different errata docs for the core book and know that is not all the errata, only the errata the devs and released. If you dig through their message boards you will find the errata team has a lot more waiting for approval but that the guys in charge don't want to even look at it.