So, as per my signature, I decided to end my RPG dry spell that started with Covid. So I put together a Tinder profile, err, looking for players/GM profile. I then post it anywhere on the net with players, that both do not have active Commissars checking papers, and no wall to wall pronouns and eye-melting flags. These turn out to be thin on the ground.
Then we have my second barrier, I am not looking to play or run D&D or its clones. Yes, that includes PathFinder. Yes, that includes OSR. Hey, where did everybody go?
Roleplaying should just change it's name to 5E And The Gang, and be done with it.
So I'm in, I've filtered 99.99% of players, I'm home free, right? Nope, now comes the little interviews/chats. No problem, they've already seen what I am and are not looking for.
So first their are illiterates asking me to run Pathfinder or 5E. Sigh.
Then we have people where everything is going great, when suddenly what I would consider a minor point becomes a deal-breaker.
May not use a certain VTT for every game? They're out.
Don't want to run only the same game for years with no break? Out.
ONE game you're going to run has pregens? Out.
You're in the timezone you already mentioned? Out.
No problem, from the internet I have gathered the nerd-Avengers. A handful of elite men
and women with the extraordinary ability to have spare time and not be an utter freak. Excelsior! Now I am truly in Zion, who wants to run or play anything?
Turns out, even with so called gung-ho players, getting something going is like pulling teeth/herding cats. OK, OK, I will run two games per week, just to get things going. Oh, there's actually only specific games you want to play or run. Which are different from the other incredibly specific things the others want to play or run... (sounds of sobbing and the click of a trigger)
So it seems to me that by specifically targeting older players with free time, I have tapped some kind of strange demographic of players that are not open to trying things, even short term. They would rather not play, than try a game they're unsure about. Rather than try a game they like the sound of, but it has pregens...
Or they want to GM, but it's one system, one setting. No multiple choice need apply.
I feel like I am taking crazy pills here. There are more players sitting inactive in the channel than there are playing. In a channel explicitly for gamers who sought me out to play games. If not for a few good-eggs the whole thing would be a wash.
As fellow old warhorses, are you guys this fossilized in your gaming foibles? Are there entire genres you won't play? Do you only ever run the same game system exclusively? This is all very weird, and wrong, and weirdy-wrong to me.
People in general, are difficult to get along with; and it's never their fault. You, are always the problem. Happy gaming!!!
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 03, 2023, 09:44:03 PM
As fellow old warhorses, are you guys this fossilized in your gaming foibles? Are there entire genres you won't play? Do you only ever run the same game system exclusively? This is all very weird, and wrong, and weirdy-wrong to me.
I... yeah? Some?
I've never enjoyed supers. Not the comics, not most of the movies (I have a soft spot for the Iron Man movies, but that's about it), not the cartoons, and similarly, not the roleplaying games.
I don't like Toon. I also don't do diceless. I don't like Apocalypse World, or any of it's myriad spawn. I have other hangups. I like to think I'm pretty broad in my tastes and willingness to try different systems and game settings, but it's not unlimited, certainly.
Quote from: Bruwulf on February 03, 2023, 11:26:25 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 03, 2023, 09:44:03 PM
As fellow old warhorses, are you guys this fossilized in your gaming foibles? Are there entire genres you won't play? Do you only ever run the same game system exclusively? This is all very weird, and wrong, and weirdy-wrong to me.
I... yeah? Some?
I've never enjoyed supers. Not the comics, not most of the movies (I have a soft spot for the Iron Man movies, but that's about it), not the cartoons, and similarly, not the roleplaying games.
I don't like Toon. I also don't do diceless. I don't like Apocalypse World, or any of it's myriad spawn. I have other hangups. I like to think I'm pretty broad in my tastes and willingness to try different systems and game settings, but it's not unlimited, certainly.
This would be more akin to "I only want to do fantasy, but not High Fantasy."
I'm not saying that if my gaming life couldn't be a never-ending rotation of D&D, Warhammer Fantasy, Harnmaster, Call of Cthulhu, and Shadowrun, I wouldn't be sooo happy...
... But then I'd eventually miss Fading Suns, and White Wolf games, and Rifts, and...
Okay, I'm a gamer. My blood is thick with Coke and Doritos, my hands are calloused from rolling dice. I can't limit myself that much.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 03, 2023, 09:44:03 PM
As fellow old warhorses, are you guys this fossilized in your gaming foibles? Are there entire genres you won't play? Do you only ever run the same game system exclusively? This is all very weird, and wrong, and weirdy-wrong to me.
There's a fairly wide list that I would run in theory, but in practice it narrows pretty darn fast. I've only got so much time for gaming, I love running in person, I love running longer campaigns, yada, yada, yada. I'm not opposed to things other than S&S to heroic fantasy. However, what happens is all the gonzo fantasy, superheroes, online games, historical campaigns, short campaigns, etc. get bumped down to about priority 4 or lower on a list of 10-15. Which practically speaking means they don't happen right now.
Working on my own system has cut this down even more, because now I've only got time for the top 2 things instead of top 3, and I honestly would rather work on that system than make priority 3 happen. Out of the 20 odd players that I get to sometimes come to my 2 groups right now, they feel even more strongly about it. They are fine playing a different system for a moderately long campaign (e.g. 18-24 months), but they do not want to change systems very often. I'm the only one of all those people that even care about learning new systems.
My suggestion is find something you can get people to do, focus on that, get it working. Then when it settles into a good groove, start something completely different, from scratch. You can invite some of the players from the first group, but don't expect any takers.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 03, 2023, 09:44:03 PMAre there entire genres you won't play?
Games which try to be deliberately funny, or games where you play as kids. I have friends who won't do genre X, and in each instance it's not because of the game, but the people they gamed with. Sadly, this one bad experience has scarred them for life. But I guess it is what it is.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 03, 2023, 09:44:03 PMDo you only ever run the same game system exclusively?
We have systems we like and systems we don't. That's sort of vague, so let me narrow it down. Both extremely rules lite and extremely rules heavy are out, for different reasons. We like rules medium games, like Savage Worlds, B/X stuff, D6, Traveller, D20 Modern.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 03, 2023, 09:44:03 PMThis is all very weird, and wrong, and weirdy-wrong to me.
It's a weird world, and it's getting weirder. I've read some of your other posts, and I can see you're having a hard time. I don't know if my advice will be useful, since I don't game online and don't look for players online. But here it is, anyway. Advertise like this:
* I am 50, looking to GM for a committed group. Prefer older players (30+) or younger players with a mature mindset.
* I'm running a campaign set in Game of Thrones using Runequest (or whatever is your thing.)
* We meet every Saturday from 12 to 6. Bring snacks.
* Mature players only. No smoking, no drinking, etc.
Don't:
* Mention "no politics" or "no Woke." Just stick to gaming and the things you like.
* Be open-ended about things. "I am running X" and that's it. Don't even talk about other games.
* Compromise. Don't lower your standards or stray from your vision.
Why not just advertise what it is that you are looking to run? Just filter people out, with your pitch. "I am looking to run game "X", via ruleset "Y", with true old school sensibilities. If you can handle that, and that sounds like fun to you; let's try to set something up.
Then any further filtering, can take place in private.
Quote from: Aglondir on February 04, 2023, 12:53:21 AMI've read some of your other posts, and I can see you're having a hard time.
I should be clear about this. Putting together players has been a LOT of work, way more than it would be if the hobby wasn't such a mess. I have some frustrations, I sometimes use hyperbole for comedic effect, and this site is about the only place for a guy to have a good moan about something without sparkle trolls parachuting in.
I've got two games starting up next week, and although it's slightly stressful (especially since I'm also learning a VTT to run them on!) it feels good to get something going, and I'm hoping the games will become self-perpetuating, and I'll also get to play.
I'm learning to use Fantasy Grounds, and I'll be slowly porting games to it (although, sadly, most have little to no inherent support,) which may even lure my wife in to playing again (she likes the ROLE part of roleplaying, but not the math.)
TLDR: I'm frustrated but hopeful. 8)
Quote from: Jam The MF on February 04, 2023, 12:55:44 AM
Why not just advertise what it is that you are looking to run? Just filter people out, with your pitch. "I am looking to run game "X", via ruleset "Y", with true old school sensibilities. If you can handle that, and that sounds like fun to you; let's try to set something up.
Then any further filtering, can take place in private.
Look at my sig. I lay everything out, extensively list what I want to run, what I'd prefer to play. I went out of my way for clarity.
People simply don't read.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 04, 2023, 01:06:28 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on February 04, 2023, 12:55:44 AM
Why not just advertise what it is that you are looking to run? Just filter people out, with your pitch. "I am looking to run game "X", via ruleset "Y", with true old school sensibilities. If you can handle that, and that sounds like fun to you; let's try to set something up.
Then any further filtering, can take place in private.
Look at my sig. I lay everything out, extensively list what I want to run, what I'd prefer to play. I went out of my way for clarity.
People simply don't read.
If I can presume to try and read Jam's mind, the usual procedure in the VTT world is to do your posts with a specific campaign pitch. i.e., "I'm running X kind of Campaign with Y system, at Z time, and I need XX number of players." I think he just meant you might get more frequent/reliable applicants that way, rather than with a general game-group listing. You might have better luck advertising specific campaigns first, and then using that to build a player group.
That's kind of what I did, without meaning to. When I started on VTT I didn't have time to GM, so I just went looking through Roll20 for games to join. Currently I have two games I play in (with a third possibly starting soon) and one which I run. In my game, all but one of the players are people I invited over from games I was playing in. Between my player games, I've got a network of about 12-15 people that I can invite into future games already knowing they're solid players.
The thing about game selection is that certain games are biased towards certain player groups. What I mean by that is that I suspect a lot of grognard types only play OSR games, not because they aren't willing to try other systems, but because they know that they're more likely to get the kind of players they want in those games. Personally, I'm willing to try almost any system (other than PBTA, which I have tried and did not care for), but I'm much more willing if I know some of the people involved. I'm pretty reluctant to apply to join games in the more popular systems (5e, Pathfinder, CoC, even Savage Worlds to an extent), because I know that I have a high probability of winding up in a group with players that are likely to annoy me.
I do think you're probably pretty badly restricting yourself demographically, too. I saw in your other post you specified Gen X or older Milennials with a lot of free time. My sense of VTT players is that a lot of them take to the internet precisely because they have a restrictive schedule, which would make it hard for them to do home games, and Gen X and older millennials (which I take to mean around 35-55 years old) are right in the time of life when they're likely to have the least free time.
Speaking for myself again, I took to online gaming precisely because I had an (at the time) newborn baby and a more than full-time job, and could only play after the kid went to bed on weeknights.
I wish you all the best with it, though, as someone who was in a somewhat similar position not that long ago. Frankly, if you've got two games on the go, that's pretty good in itself. Online gaming seems to have slowed down in the last year or so. When I started it in early 2021, I was pretty spoiled for choice, but I've been hunting for another game to join for the last few months and only just found one a few days ago.
Welcome to gamers where many once they find a favoured rpg for better or worse stick with it. Nor are they required to expand their interests either. If it's news to some on the hobby then they really don't know how people act in general.
Most in my area is mostly 5E or Pathfinder. With a scattered COC and White wolf games. Unless one goes online one is not going to find those who want to play the rpg they want to run. I wanted to run a modified 1E D& D and have no takers though find a group to list with on RollD20.
Ultimately one can ask though not demand and respect other gamer's choices. One way yo lol any interest in your campaign and deservedly do is to insult other players rpg choices. While asking to be punched in the face.
Quote from: Abraxus on February 04, 2023, 10:51:25 AMUltimately one can ask though not demand and respect other gamer's choices. One way yo lol any interest in your campaign and deservedly do is to insult other players rpg choices. While asking to be punched in the face.
Did you use 'you' to mean me specifically? I'm sorry but this was unclear do to all of your typos.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 04, 2023, 01:06:28 AM
Look at my sig. I lay everything out, extensively list what I want to run, what I'd prefer to play. I went out of my way for clarity.
People simply don't read.
Oops, my bad. I didn't see it until you pointed it out... (edit) I guess I never notice the signature section.
On the topic of RPG openness, I'd play less than 50% of what's published. I'm open to new stuff, OSR stuff, homebrew stuff, playtest stuff and old stuff, but I've got little tolerance for "crunchy rules" so since I mostly GM, I tend toward rules light-ish. Even though I spent years playing Champions and Car Wars, I doubt I've got the mental interest for something that involved anymore.
As for Grognard GM's life situation, that's very rough taking care of your disabled wife. Hopefully an improvement is on the horizon. Best wishes on navigating this challenge.
As for Grognard GM's RPG recruitment, I agree with others who mentioned the issue of too much leeway for players. There's something powerful about giving people LESS options. AKA, "Grognard GM running Dark Heresy on Tuesday 11am EST and Friday 2pm EST for 4 hours per session, seeking players can attend one or both sessions on a regular basis."
Then, if you get 2 people who can only do Wednesday at 4pm but really want to play Dark Heresy, then you consider changing the announcement and point out that you already have 2 players ready to go.
I can't speak for online VTT gamers, but older real life gamers mostly just want to have fun during their few hours of free time. Maybe its because I game with deplorable monsters constantly threatening democracy, but any "fast paced easy fantasy RPG" would be fine to scratch their D&D itch. "We're doing Dark Sun via True 20? Whatever. Do I roll high? Can I play an elf barbarian? You'll put everything I ever need to know about the campaign on one piece of paper in large print? Kewl. Let's dice."
Quote from: Spinachcat on February 04, 2023, 08:16:30 PMAs for Grognard GM's RPG recruitment, I agree with others who mentioned the issue of too much leeway for players. There's something powerful about giving people LESS options. AKA, "Grognard GM running Dark Heresy on Tuesday 11am EST and Friday 2pm EST for 4 hours per session, seeking players can attend one or both sessions on a regular basis."
Then, if you get 2 people who can only do Wednesday at 4pm but really want to play Dark Heresy, then you consider changing the announcement and point out that you already have 2 players ready to go.
That's what I ended up having to do with the group of players I actually formed, in order to get anything going. I had to put forward specific games, then winnow down by time and day.
I didn't want to do this from the get-go, as if like to cycle games, and if I put forward CoC or Dark heresy, I know for a fact I'll get people that will want me to wear a hole in the ground being forever GM of that particular game. I'd rather have the initial difficulty.
Quote from: Spinachcat on February 04, 2023, 08:16:30 PMI can't speak for online VTT gamers, but older real life gamers mostly just want to have fun during their few hours of free time. Maybe its because I game with deplorable monsters constantly threatening democracy, but any "fast paced easy fantasy RPG" would be fine to scratch their D&D itch. "We're doing Dark Sun via True 20? Whatever. Do I roll high? Can I play an elf barbarian? You'll put everything I ever need to know about the campaign on one piece of paper in large print? Kewl. Let's dice."
I must reiterate here: I asked for people with a lot of free time, and that's what I got. In fact many of them said things like "I only sleep a few hours a day, and I'm free to the rest of the time. I really want to have people to game with!"
Those same people then go "Eh, pass." at whatever is offered. One player told me he wasn't interested in anything I put forward (7 systems, about 20 settings.)
Perhaps that's the problem. These people with too much free time feel they can be picky to the Nth degree whereas the guy who can only VTT on Tuesdays between 2pm and 6pm is going to be thrilled playing whatever somebody will GM.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 03, 2023, 09:44:03 PM
As fellow old warhorses, are you guys this fossilized in your gaming foibles? Are there entire genres you won't play? Do you only ever run the same game system exclusively? This is all very weird, and wrong, and weirdy-wrong to me.
I have some systems I like. BX AD&D 2e 5e D&D. Gamma World, Star Frontiers. Beyond the Supernatural, After the Bomb, Albedo, Torg, Shadowrun, Marvel Superherous, and a few others.
And I have systems I do not like, Like gurps. 3e/PF and 4e D&D. and a few others.
And a few systems I'd like to try like TFT, T&T, CP2020 and quite a few others.
And a few I am on the fence about. Like 2e, Rifts, and quite a few others.
When you go looking for players always make it really clear what your intent is. What system/s are likely how when where and why.
Then expect at least 90% to not read some part and thus be incompatible.
I have been really fortunate in that the players locally have been open to playing about anything I run and same for my online players.
My original gaming group was pretty eclectic. We played Torg, Robotech. Beyond the Supernatural, TMNT/After the Bomb, MSH. Mainly as I was into Palladium stuff at the time and Torg because a friend brought it in and wanted me to GM it
Well, while only 4 of them are active and flexible so far, I do have 12 members on my private server now. So I'd call that...moderately successful? Mildly successful with room for great success?
And although they're not as proactive and flexible as I'd hoped, none of them are there for 5E, and none should melt at room temperature.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on February 04, 2023, 12:21:04 AM
Working on my own system has cut this down even more, because now I've only got time for the top 2 things instead of top 3, and I honestly would rather work on that system than make priority 3 happen. Out of the 20 odd players that I get to sometimes come to my 2 groups right now, they feel even more strongly about it. They are fine playing a different system for a moderately long campaign (e.g. 18-24 months), but they do not want to change systems very often. I'm the only one of all those people that even care about learning new systems.
You get twenty-odd players to come to your groups? Online or in person? If the answer is "in person," let us know the name of this gaming Mecca so that I may sell all of my worldly possessions (save my dice) and move thereto.
Quote from: I on February 05, 2023, 05:45:51 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on February 04, 2023, 12:21:04 AM
Working on my own system has cut this down even more, because now I've only got time for the top 2 things instead of top 3, and I honestly would rather work on that system than make priority 3 happen. Out of the 20 odd players that I get to sometimes come to my 2 groups right now, they feel even more strongly about it. They are fine playing a different system for a moderately long campaign (e.g. 18-24 months), but they do not want to change systems very often. I'm the only one of all those people that even care about learning new systems.
You get twenty-odd players to come to your groups? Online or in person? If the answer is "in person," let us know the name of this gaming Mecca so that I may sell all of my worldly possessions (save my dice) and move thereto.
If he's running 5E or PF, he could be in any medium to large U.S. city.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 05, 2023, 06:09:26 PM
Quote from: I on February 05, 2023, 05:45:51 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on February 04, 2023, 12:21:04 AM
Working on my own system has cut this down even more, because now I've only got time for the top 2 things instead of top 3, and I honestly would rather work on that system than make priority 3 happen. Out of the 20 odd players that I get to sometimes come to my 2 groups right now, they feel even more strongly about it. They are fine playing a different system for a moderately long campaign (e.g. 18-24 months), but they do not want to change systems very often. I'm the only one of all those people that even care about learning new systems.
You get twenty-odd players to come to your groups? Online or in person? If the answer is "in person," let us know the name of this gaming Mecca so that I may sell all of my worldly possessions (save my dice) and move thereto.
If he's running 5E or PF, he could be in any medium to large U.S. city.
I did run some 5E during the last big round of recruitment, but all I'm running now is my own system, and it is all I've run for the last 18+ months. It's all in person right now, though we did have a small group running online during the lockdown. None of us really cared for it, but it happened to coincide with several of the regulars having to work on our usual game days, and short online sessions was all we could do there for awhile because of that.
Now, we never get 20+ at any one time. A lot of them have conflicts from time to time, and so what we usually have is 5-9 showing up for a game session, but who shows rotates among that player base. And we only play every 5 to 6 weeks in each group. Not quite the gaming Mecca it sounds like. :D OTOH, they are all friends, none of them cause any trouble, and frequently they recruit friends and family members, which keeps the circle expanding. Plus, I've got a line on another pool of players, which I expect to add another 5 to 10 to the pool over the next year.
Basically, I never stop recruiting... to the point that I'll run a game for 10-12 people (or even 15 in a pinch) to keep the pool intact. Some of the Core players have been in the pool for 35 years and counting. During that time, I would estimate that we've run some version of D&D around 20 of those years.
:) What you are presenting, with winnowing personality gates followed by a very open date, time, and system stare-and-shrug, was taught to me in sales as a passive hard sell tactic. You are applying awkward social pressure by passively not making the direct ask. And this after building value as an elite experience. It's like getting rarefied gasses and then putting it into a volume magnitudes larger; it dissipates.
You are attempting to do one of the hardest tricks in sales. 8) I would stop and leave that to pros.
My advice is follow through with your rarefied personality cut-offs and go for what Spinachcat gave example: the direct ask. Now typically a direct ask with two options helps people select, e.g. "I am open best at 6pm-11pms GMT and 9pm-2am GMT, which do you prefer?" And then work that on down to a tighter pitch like "Tues & Thurs, 6pm-11pm GMT, Supers using ICONS system." Expect to ask around 5 times before people commit.
Sales is a lot of applied individual & group psychology, which actually does change from culture to culture (and times and sub-cultures). There are fruitful lessons there to get over social awkwardness and diffused energies. Just some sales advice I picked up on life's 'journey'. ;) Hope it helps!
Hey, man, I'm glad you got a group going and hope it works out.
You seem pretty intent on doing it the hard way. Opaopajr's comments are spot on. You're doing the personal stuff first and having the game follow. I've never seen it done that way. Normally the game leads and, if people get along, more games and friendship follows.
This is probably why you're having difficulty. But hey, if you get it to launch, great.
And I woulnd't even bother with a VTT at the start, if I were you. That just increases the difficulty, delays the first session, and is yet another thing for players to disagree with.
Heh, I literally hit all of the OP's check boxes, except that I have totally given up on playing with groups because I also have one more check box...
[X] Jealous spouse that will actively sabotage any face-to-face or online group that I'm in.
Remember boys and girls, don't be like Uncle Todd, marry a gamer or at least someone that has a freaking hobby. :D
Quote from: zircher on February 06, 2023, 10:40:21 PM
Heh, I literally hit all of the OP's check boxes, except that I have totally given up on playing with groups because I also have one more check box...
[X] Jealous spouse that will actively sabotage any face-to-face or online group that I'm in.
Remember boys and girls, don't be like Uncle Todd, marry a gamer or at least someone that has a freaking hobby. :D
(https://media.giphy.com/media/UOzNHVvDXzVBK/giphy.gif)
I thought I'd hit the jackpot, marrying a gamer. She was a videogame and boardgame player rather than rpgs, but close enough, and she'd play RPG's to spend time with me. Sadly that ended with medical circumstances, but at least she respects my need to game :)
So I ran my session 1, and it was a smash success. People always really enjoy my games, it's just getting them to try that first dime bag of sweet, sweet GM'ing.
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2r6pmj93B1qh1kd5o1_500.gif)
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 06, 2023, 11:20:50 PM
So I ran my session 1, and it was a smash success.
I'm glad this worked out for you. Your approach described in the first post seemed so confrontational, but I couldn't really advise against it because honestly, that may be what's necessary to avoid interpersonal drama- you seemed to put a high priority on not dealing with highly incompatible people, so of course your initial filter would be harsh.
Quote from: VenkaI'm glad this worked out for you. Your approach described in the first post seemed so confrontational, but I couldn't really advise against it because honestly, that may be what's necessary to avoid interpersonal drama- you seemed to put a high priority on not dealing with highly incompatible people, so of course your initial filter would be harsh.
That's it exactly, better to pan a hundred streams in Winter to find those gold nuggets; than sign up for a company mine. The few players I have are all solid players, and it was worth the up-front hassle.
I actually had one of the players come to me after the first session, and say to me that he's really impressed at the quality of the players I've gathered. That was very gratifying, and I agree with him.
We were all doing accents, and having fun, and you could tell that the level of interplay was inspiring everyone to up their game. I'm quite pleased.
Now I just need to do it all over again in 2 days, with a different game system :o
I'm certainly going to need some time just playing after a a month or two of running two different games a week ;D
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 05, 2023, 06:09:26 PM
Quote from: I on February 05, 2023, 05:45:51 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on February 04, 2023, 12:21:04 AM
Working on my own system has cut this down even more, because now I've only got time for the top 2 things instead of top 3, and I honestly would rather work on that system than make priority 3 happen. Out of the 20 odd players that I get to sometimes come to my 2 groups right now, they feel even more strongly about it. They are fine playing a different system for a moderately long campaign (e.g. 18-24 months), but they do not want to change systems very often. I'm the only one of all those people that even care about learning new systems.
You get twenty-odd players to come to your groups? Online or in person? If the answer is "in person," let us know the name of this gaming Mecca so that I may sell all of my worldly possessions (save my dice) and move thereto.
If he's running 5E or PF, he could be in any medium to large U.S. city.
You're undoubtedly right. But I'd rather spend an entire evening with my face buried in Claude Akins' asscrack than play either one of those games.
Quote from: zircher on February 06, 2023, 10:40:21 PM
Heh, I literally hit all of the OP's check boxes, except that I have totally given up on playing with groups because I also have one more check box...
[X] Jealous spouse that will actively sabotage any face-to-face or online group that I'm in.
Remember boys and girls, don't be like Uncle Todd, marry a gamer or at least someone that has a freaking hobby. :D
Or marry a good Christian, conservative woman that knows you need one and respects it. Furthermore she knows your hobby is dirt cheap, doesn't involve getting drunk on some joint and snorting blow from a hooker's ass so she knows she hit the jackpot.
Although I do envy those who have a gamer wife/GF.
Well, my present approach to this is a little different, firstly (D6 System as core engine only) I'm not one to play online so meatspace only; I (even in the backwoods) can always grab players of varying demographics and levels of prior play experience if I so chose, just physically go to schools colleges churches courthouses any public high traffic place really and recruit like you are john the baptist, easy peasy really.
"Hello there! My name is slip I'm gonna try to run a tabletop game, think risk or monopoly or D&D, every two weeks or so and I'm looking for interested peoples or people like critters, it's a long running affair you can drop in and out of as you have free time and is sort of the pre-internet pre-cursor to the modern mmo computer games that are so popular now, actual play is face to face in any location with a table some chairs at least coal-mine level lighting and protection from wind and rain, although a nearby toilet and supply of snacks is always good too. If you are interested please exchange contact info with my secretary there and i will pester you when things begin to align".
This works exceedingly well, as far as I rarely have trouble filling a seat. BUT...My big fat BUT....
I try too hard to please everyone. I was that idiot that took the golden rule to heart. I'm terribly bad about trying to triangulate what everyone claims to want from the game into the best that can be collectively delivered in terms of pleasing them all. I find this has gotten harder over time as cultural tastes change; I rant about anime and how its always a jolly roger flying above negative experiences but at the same time 2/3rds of what constitutes anime is not to my eye anime, when i'm going on about it airbender or speedracer for example are not included in my mind in that list of "anime" so this confounds communicating with players below the age of say 25. There are very specific japanese words for the types of anime that trigger my shit, chibi or hentai or whatever, but not wanting to give the notion credibility i am reluctant to sharpen my lexicon in this regard and so just say anime.
So the first hurdle after seating is screening and as I said above I often find myself and the subject talking past each other on the no or minimal anime trope/influence part. The tropes are probably the most damaging but the art is what fouls my mood, you show up with a binder covered in stickers of arguably sexualized precious moments looking anime girls my brain fills with thunder clouds my mood sours and no sucker is getting an even break, my enthusiasm is kill son. I will be completely unable to relax and enjoy running the game while wondering if you are a psychopath that secretly has some strange "put the lotion in the basket" ritual you perform before arriving. (on the other hand if you showed up with a binder covered in misfits stickers i'd probably let you get away with sleeping drunk at the table only saying "i swing!" and rolling some dice every now and then)
But typically play begins before screening is complete, in fact, a session or two of play is the field test and finalizing of screening I would say. Now, when exactly does the campaign as such begin? heh! Good question, the last few years my experience has been thus:
When you've got a group together, enough to play but perhaps not everyone who wanted or intends to play, you can begin feeling them out about what they want out of the game and trying to find that triangulated spot. First each of them likely comes with baggage, this one wants to play 5e or wants elements therefrom, that one wants stuff from vtm, that one rifts...so i cram their shit through the D6 system filter and we give it a test run, then more discuss, then perhaps more revise then more test, with additional people dropping in and out across sessions and sometimes with multiple or different characters, and as it goes I find that they gradually ask you to shed the limitations they first asked for and move back toward core D6 the more they play.
They first suffer analysis paralysis with just D6, ask for the addition of things (restrictions really in terms of mechanics) such as class or level or whatever so they have some familiar rails, and then, just as they did back in 2e with skills & powers begin questioning "why can't my wizard wear armor" or similar. And thats just like, the mechanics aspect, DON'T get me started on how they are with setting, especially Dragonlance. Jesus hold my whiskey.
As of our last session, which was mostly my mass combat rules which everyone seems to like well enough (using 6 siders with pips as minis/troop total counters), and my telling them "hey assholes you know we could borrow more from pendragon/ars magicka and do multiple characters per player, each player with an estate or organization his characters are officers/leaders in and break the game session up into 4 seasonal phases and such and go heavier on these big dragon-army battles" they wanted to take time to read all the D6 pdfs and then re-convene. At first they had me get osric and devise a simple conversion process so as to essentially play ad&d with D6 as core engine, now they are starting to realize that such is largely just limiting of character options that are otherwise normally available by default in D6 for the purpose of thematic reinforcment, ie, wizards wear robes because...well because they do dammit!
Not exactly the online mess OP has encountered, but certainly its own ball of headache, tears, triumph, and spilled mountaindew.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 21, 2023, 11:54:30 PM
Or marry a good Christian, conservative woman that knows you need one and respects it. Furthermore she knows your hobby is dirt cheap, doesn't involve getting drunk on some joint and snorting blow from a hooker's ass so she knows she hit the jackpot.
Although I do envy those who have a gamer wife/GF.
What if I told you I had a good Christian, conservative wife that is also a gamer? A casual gamer, granted, but she's playing in the games.
Quote from: I on February 21, 2023, 11:06:07 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 05, 2023, 06:09:26 PM
Quote from: I on February 05, 2023, 05:45:51 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on February 04, 2023, 12:21:04 AM
Working on my own system has cut this down even more, because now I've only got time for the top 2 things instead of top 3, and I honestly would rather work on that system than make priority 3 happen. Out of the 20 odd players that I get to sometimes come to my 2 groups right now, they feel even more strongly about it. They are fine playing a different system for a moderately long campaign (e.g. 18-24 months), but they do not want to change systems very often. I'm the only one of all those people that even care about learning new systems.
You get twenty-odd players to come to your groups? Online or in person? If the answer is "in person," let us know the name of this gaming Mecca so that I may sell all of my worldly possessions (save my dice) and move thereto.
If he's running 5E or PF, he could be in any medium to large U.S. city.
You're undoubtedly right. But I'd rather spend an entire evening with my face buried in Claude Akins' asscrack than play either one of those games.
As a technical statement of fact, he is correct. The implication, however, is completely wrong, as explained in the quote that started it and my later clarification. I am not running 5E now, and I've never even considered running PF. If I had skipped 5E entirely, I'd still have similar groups. When I did run 5E, I ran it more like BECMI/RC than 5E, which is part of the reason I developed that second group.
Point being, a GM that is willing to recruit and find players for a good game that they enjoy running can do that. You may not get exactly everything you want in a player, because at least half of them will be casual players. However, what you will get if you go this route is some people that you enjoy spending time around, with whom you have no reservations about coming into your home, minimal "drama", and sustainable gaming.
Look, the people in my groups won't play just anything. There's a lot of things that I'd like to try that they'll never do. I get it. On the other hand, there are things they'd like to play that I'm never going to run. So it cuts both ways. There's an area where I'll run it and they'll play it, and we are all happy to do that. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on February 22, 2023, 08:27:08 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 21, 2023, 11:54:30 PM
Or marry a good Christian, conservative woman that knows you need one and respects it. Furthermore she knows your hobby is dirt cheap, doesn't involve getting drunk on some joint and snorting blow from a hooker's ass so she knows she hit the jackpot.
Although I do envy those who have a gamer wife/GF.
What if I told you I had a good Christian, conservative wife that is also a gamer? A casual gamer, granted, but she's playing in the games.
Now you're just being a cruel show off. (Seriously tho, congratulations man you won the lottery)
Quote from: Slipshot762 on February 22, 2023, 12:08:16 AM
Well, my present approach to this is a little different, firstly (D6 System as core engine only) I'm not one to play online so meatspace only; I (even in the backwoods) can always grab players of varying demographics and levels of prior play experience if I so chose, just physically go to schools colleges churches courthouses any public high traffic place really and recruit like you are john the baptist, easy peasy really.
...
Not exactly the online mess OP has encountered, but certainly its own ball of headache, tears, triumph, and spilled mountaindew.
Wow that was a wild ride.
I too have wrangled groups of randos and so far it's worked. I have been very accommodating in the past, but now, more often than not, I just say here's what I'm running, join if you want. Or sometimes, here are two games I want to run, which do you like best?
A topic that has come up lately, that sounds like it applies here, "Lonely Fun". There is a huge market for gaming related things that can be done alone even if they are implied to be a group activity. Way more people like the idea of gaming than like actual interaction with people.
You can see this with the types of material that are popular. Why go you need glossy pictures unless it is intended to actually be a "Coffee Table" book?
There is more of a market for bare miniatures than pre-colored ones because the actual activity is paint them.
Many other activities are done with only lip service to Actual Play.
Quote from: Greentongue on February 22, 2023, 01:26:25 PMThere is more of a market for bare miniatures than pre-colored ones because the actual activity is paint them.
Eh, there have always been plenty of players that have wanted good quality pre-painted minis, even Warhammer players way back in the 90's. But it's only now that the technology is getting to the point where reasonably priced, good quality pre-paints is within reach.
I dislike the way some mini painters are elitist about this stuff. Having a pre-painted line alongside un-painted doesn't take anything away, and the people who enjoy painting can still be smug about their army quality. Some people just want to be able to play in the game.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 22, 2023, 03:25:06 PM
Quote from: Greentongue on February 22, 2023, 01:26:25 PMThere is more of a market for bare miniatures than pre-colored ones because the actual activity is paint them.
Eh, there have always been plenty of players that have wanted good quality pre-painted minis, even Warhammer players way back in the 90's. But it's only now that the technology is getting to the point where reasonably priced, good quality pre-paints is within reach.
I dislike the way some mini painters are elitist about this stuff. Having a pre-painted line alongside un-painted doesn't take anything away, and the people who enjoy painting can still be smug about their army quality. Some people just want to be able to play in the game.
Which is why I use paper miniatures from https://www.printableheroes.com/ (https://www.printableheroes.com/) In a few 3 ring binders I can fit hundreds of miniatures.
I only wish there was a similar place to get miniatures for other genres besides Fantasy.
So occasionally I scroll through Looking For Group/Game threads, because as a masochist I love seeing 5E/PF until I go snow blind. Here's a winner I saw today:
--- Game System Preferred: D&D 5e, All 100% Homebrew Allowed, I Preferred To Be In A Solo OR One-on-One Campaign Rather Than A Group Which I Discovered.
About Me: I'm looking for a 100% Homebrew, I haven't played a game because I was kicked out for not fitting into their game style because I want to play as a Solo Player. I'm searching for a game I can fit in that was medium combat, high roleplay, and more puzzles. I want a DM that approves all homebrew, including Homebrew Class, Homebrew Spells, Homebrew Items, Homebrew Adventures, and Homebrew Subclass. I have been playing DND 5e for four years since corvid. I want to play in a solo campaign because that is what I found out when I leave games that have a group I want to be the charge of my own game and roleplay.---
Quote from: ForgottenF on February 04, 2023, 01:54:06 AM
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 04, 2023, 01:06:28 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on February 04, 2023, 12:55:44 AM
Why not just advertise what it is that you are looking to run? Just filter people out, with your pitch. "I am looking to run game "X", via ruleset "Y", with true old school sensibilities. If you can handle that, and that sounds like fun to you; let's try to set something up.
Then any further filtering, can take place in private.
Look at my sig. I lay everything out, extensively list what I want to run, what I'd prefer to play. I went out of my way for clarity.
People simply don't read.
If I can presume to try and read Jam's mind, the usual procedure in the VTT world is to do your posts with a specific campaign pitch. i.e., "I'm running X kind of Campaign with Y system, at Z time, and I need XX number of players." I think he just meant you might get more frequent/reliable applicants that way, rather than with a general game-group listing. You might have better luck advertising specific campaigns first, and then using that to build a player group.
I see what you're saying but I've had the same issue Grognard has had. Even when I expressly say what kind of game I'm running, what system it uses, tone and so on. I get people who sign up and then demand I use 5e and let them Murderhobo because something something Matt Mercer. And it is very fustrating. They don't want to read, they don't want to pick a GM who would actually fit them. They just think all GMs are there to enable their specific fantasies as opposed to PLAY A GAME. I'm not trying to force people to play my games. If they don't like it they don't have to. But so many of these Critical Role people have got it into their heads that they can just dictate to the GM without any kind of discussion. I'm happy to discuss things to a certain extent. But I've always held that the GMs word is final. And after a while there's no one left who's decent to game with.
I'll jump on the bandwagon here. I think the best gaming buddies I've had were friends first (or family). I just happened to begin gaming with them at some point.
The alternative is to try and seek out gamers who you don't really know. That's a minefield, and overall I don't enjoy it as much.
As for me? I'm a grognard, but even when I was first starting out there were only a few games or genres I was interested in playing. Over the decades I have been talked into "just trying" things I wasn't interested in. Never works out, so I'm much less likely to go that route any more. Especially since I certainly know what types of games I like by now, and I really, really don't enjoy learning new rules sets.
Quote from: zircher on February 06, 2023, 10:40:21 PM
Heh, I literally hit all of the OP's check boxes, except that I have totally given up on playing with groups because I also have one more check box...
[X] Jealous spouse that will actively sabotage any face-to-face or online group that I'm in.
Remember boys and girls, don't be like Uncle Todd, marry a gamer or at least someone that has a freaking hobby. :D
See, that just fuking blows. Is she allowed to go out with her BFFs? If she is, lay down the fuking law. Marriage is an EQUAL relationship. If she can hang with her friends, you can hang with yours too.
your situation might be a little more nuanced than that, so I don't know. Regardless, you should have an opportunity to do the things you like, and let here know it's not a detrament to the relationship.
Quote from: blackstone on February 24, 2023, 10:34:44 AM
Quote from: zircher on February 06, 2023, 10:40:21 PM
Heh, I literally hit all of the OP's check boxes, except that I have totally given up on playing with groups because I also have one more check box...
[X] Jealous spouse that will actively sabotage any face-to-face or online group that I'm in.
Remember boys and girls, don't be like Uncle Todd, marry a gamer or at least someone that has a freaking hobby. :D
See, that just fuking blows. Is she allowed to go out with her BFFs? If she is, lay down the fuking law. Marriage is an EQUAL relationship. If she can hang with her friends, you can hang with yours too.
your situation might be a little more nuanced than that, so I don't know. Regardless, you should have an opportunity to do the things you like, and let here know it's not a detrament to the relationship.
He's a day late and a dollar short to that conversation.
I know past gaming friends where their wives feel they're being magnanimous to allow them a few hours a week for their 'silly little games.' There's a guy who can only do 3 hours on a Sunday, after he makes her dinner, and he may be late if there's a dancing on ice special or some such she wants him to watch with her.
I can not imagine being in a relationship where my wife would ever say such things to me, let alone one where I'd take it.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 24, 2023, 10:40:10 AM
Quote from: blackstone on February 24, 2023, 10:34:44 AM
Quote from: zircher on February 06, 2023, 10:40:21 PM
Heh, I literally hit all of the OP's check boxes, except that I have totally given up on playing with groups because I also have one more check box...
[X] Jealous spouse that will actively sabotage any face-to-face or online group that I'm in.
Remember boys and girls, don't be like Uncle Todd, marry a gamer or at least someone that has a freaking hobby. :D
See, that just fuking blows. Is she allowed to go out with her BFFs? If she is, lay down the fuking law. Marriage is an EQUAL relationship. If she can hang with her friends, you can hang with yours too.
your situation might be a little more nuanced than that, so I don't know. Regardless, you should have an opportunity to do the things you like, and let here know it's not a detrament to the relationship.
He's a day late and a dollar short to that conversation.
I know past gaming friends where their wives feel they're being magnanimous to allow them a few hours a week for their 'silly little games.' There's a guy who can only do 3 hours on a Sunday, after he makes her dinner, and he may be late if there's a dancing on ice special or some such she wants him to watch with her.
I can not imagine being in a relationship where my wife would ever say such things to me, let alone one where I'd take it.
Sounds like something my ex-wife would have tried. Low self esteem manifests as all kinds of bizarre controlling behavior.
"If you love someone,
set them free smother them in needy attention-seeking craziness."
What I've found easiest is just asking friends who aren't gamers to play. It's just like when we were kids.
The problem is always in seeking out existing gamers to play with. That's when you're dealing with preferences, they know what they want, and know what they don't want. And they know no gaming is better than bad gaming.
My own experience is that if you don't already have players, post a very specific thing you want to run with clear standards. I've been able to get people onboard with that. But usually I post in a discord / subreddit / forum for that specific thing (e.g., savage worlds, osr).
You'll get some bad fits, but then you accumulate a stable of players that will play with you.
We set up a group at our local theatre and we are at 25-30 every month. We recognised we would standardise on 5e so players and GMs can swap about and there is a standard shared setting on a wiki.
We like many other rpgs better but this works.
What has happened is people have met each other and now are forming their own home campaigns, often not D&D.
I'd suggest this is how the hobby has been since it started to spin out from wargame clubs.
Iffy picky players are like photographers who never take pictures IMHO