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I’m not exactly sure why Basic Fantasy Role Playing Game (http://www.basicfantasy.org/) bothers me so much (well maybe I am).  I just hate the fact that someone has basically copied someone else’s work, slapped their name on it and arrogantly takes credit for it.  

I mean, it isn’t like the OSRIC which is simply a reference document designed to legally write D&D 1st ed, adventures, if that was the case I’d probably LOVE The Basic Game…but the author acts like it’s his own creation, then arrogantly puts restrictions in the OGL license about how it can be used.

I mean what’s the point of even using BFRPG as opposed to the RC or any other version of Basic D&D?  Any of the original basic D&D rules, though long out of print, are more popular and recognized than BFRPG ever will be (despite being currently “n print”).  The changes to BFRPG from original Basic D&D are so minor as to be inconsequential (I changed the “to hit” system years ago with little more than a simple conversion table).  There is no nostalgia factor…and to be blunt, BFRPG is written and edited very poorly, making any version of basic easier to use, reference, or just read.  Picking Basic D&D up on eBay is cheaper than a print copy (or printing your own copy) of BFRPG, so the fact that it is also offered free online means little.  

The only point of BFRPG would be if it was set up as the OSRIC, to make basic adventures easy and legal to publish…but the restrictions in BFRPG kill this possibility.

So seriously, not only is BFRPG an insult to the original authors and creators of Basic D&D (IMHO)…but it’s rather pointless in the end.

Why would anyone play this other than just playing their preferred version of Basic D&D?

Do you mean Basic Fantasy? Link?

I don't know, really I don't.  Doesn't make any sense to me.  Why not play a good game instead?

Quote from: CalithenaDo you mean Basic Fantasy? Link?

Yes, sorry (edited the OP)...I could have sworn it was called "the basic game", not sure where I got that from, did they change the name, or am I thinking of something else?  I have a copy I printed up, so I know the material.

Maybe because they don't have any version of Basic D&D in their possession, don't want to mess with e-bay or mail order, and no other alternative is available locally.  Plus, it's free.

Quote from: GabrielMaybe because they don't have any version of Basic D&D in their possession, don't want to mess with e-bay or mail order, and no other alternative is available locally.  Plus, it's free.

True, but I find it hard to believe that anyone who has come across something as obscure as BFRPG doesn't have some experience with Basic D&D already...and it is probably the single most easy RPG item to find anywhere (hell, I find them at Goodwill often).  It's really only free if you don't print it up.  For the price of ink and paper you could pick up a copy of the real basic D&D game from any store that sells used RPG books or buy it online (If you are in fact, not against such things).

I don't begrudge Sol vanity publishing his own D&D homebrew. Let a thousand flowers blossom. I'd like to publish my own, actually, though not enough to actually put the effort into doing it.

I felt the same way about that FASERIP project everyone was going all ga-ga over.

Why the fuck should I give Phil Reed money just so he can repurpose someone else's work?

Quote from: grubmanAny of the original basic D&D rules, though long out of print, are more popular and recognized than BFRPG ever will be (despite being currently "n print").

If this is true, then what's the point in getting worked up over it? Besides, you're giving him free advertising with this. I'd never even heard of the system until you ranted about it. If I were slightly less lazy I might even click your link, read the system, and want to play it, thus fueling something you despise.

Quote from: James McMurrayIf this is true, then what's the point in getting worked up over it? Besides, you're giving him free advertising with this. I'd never even heard of the system until you ranted about it. If I were slightly less lazy I might even click your link, read the system, and want to play it, thus fueling something you despise.

Indeed. I followed the link and downloaded it. Looks useful!

Thanks for pointing it out, Grubman.

- Q

Quote from: J ArcaneI felt the same way about that FASERIP project everyone was going all ga-ga over.

Why the fuck should I give Phil Reed money just so he can repurpose someone else's work?

Are the guys behind FASERIP likely to relaunch the material? Would you like new FASERIP material?

- Q

Quote from: James McMurrayIf this is true, then what's the point in getting worked up over it? Besides, you're giving him free advertising with this. I'd never even heard of the system until you ranted about it. If I were slightly less lazy I might even click your link, read the system, and want to play it, thus fueling something you despise.

I wouldn't say "getting all worked up over it".  The point of the discussion was in the title, Why would anyone play this instead of just playing Basic D&D?...the rest was just miscellaneous opinions unrelated to the actual thread topic.

Quote from: QuireAre the guys behind FASERIP likely to relaunch the material? Would you like new FASERIP material?

- Q

I don't care.

It's called plagiarism.

Whether you game the law to get around it, at it's heart it's the same thing.

Now, it's one thing to make such a project available in the fashion that OSRIC has, but actually pulling a profit from someone else's work is another matter entirely.

It's wrong.  Period.

OSRIC was started months after Basic Fantasy. Basic Fantasy wasn't designed so that works could be made for profit, OSRIC was.

(edit: added the following)
It has ascending AC and splits race from class, my two main gripes with Basic D&D.

FWIW I like the idea of both BFRP & OSRIC.

Quote from: Casey777(edit: added the following)
It has ascending AC and splits race from class, my two main gripes with Basic D&D.

Which took me about 10 minutes (seriously) to house rule ages ago ;)

Quote from: J ArcaneI don't care.

It's called plagiarism.

Whether you game the law to get around it, at it's heart it's the same thing.

Now, it's one thing to make such a project available in the fashion that OSRIC has, but actually pulling a profit from someone else's work is another matter entirely.

It's wrong.  Period.

While I see your point, let me give you my perspective.  A couple years back I started the exact same project that Phil Reed is doing.  My plan was to make FASERIP freely available as an OGL project.  To me, it is worth my 10 pledge to see the project finished and to make any arising legal entanglements Phil's problem instead of mine.

With regards to the original topic, I pretty much agree with grubby on this one.  Basic Fantasy doesn't work for me and I don't really see the point.  Hobbling the licensing seems counterproductive.  And as a matter of dogma I believe that anything with the word "basic" in the title should include Elf as a class option.

Quote from: jrientsWhile I see your point, let me give you my perspective.  A couple years back I started the exact same project that Phil Reed is doing.  My plan was to make FASERIP freely available as an OGL project.  To me, it is worth my 10 pledge to see the project finished and to make any arising legal entanglements Phil's problem instead of mine.

With regards to the original topic, I pretty much agree with grubby on this one.  Basic Fantasy doesn't work for me and I don't really see the point.  Hobbling the licensing seems counterproductive.  And as a matter of dogma I believe that anything with the word "basic" in the title should include Elf as a class option.

I look at it the same way I look at, say, pirating songs off Limewire.

If I download a copy of the latest Gnarls Barkley single for my own use, I'm technically breaking the law, but it doesn't really bother me that much.  It's about on the same wavelength as jaywalking or a "little white lie".

However, if I download that same song, and then turn around and burn it on a CD and start selling it to suckers on the street, or put it up on eBay, or somesuch, I've crossed a line.  

I'm no longer just doing this for fun or my own enjoyment, I am now actively profiting off someone else's work.

That's wrong.  

I'm pretty open-minded about the fuzzy edges of the intellectual property controversies, but I don't see this as one of the fuzzy parts.  

So something like Phil Reed's little extortion project really rubs me the wrong way, while something like OSRIC that's being done as a fan project, open licensed, and not directly for profit (though I understand some have discussed publishing sourcebooks and modules using OSRIC, that falls comfortably under "derivative works", and isn't the same thing.)  If they were actually selling OSRIC for profit, or pulling a "ransom" a la Reed, then I'd be as pissed at them.

I can't comment on Basic Fantasy because I'm only semi-familiar with it, and wasn't until now aware of any oddities regarding the license.

Quote from: J ArcaneI felt the same way about that FASERIP project everyone was going all ga-ga over.

Why the fuck should I give Phil Reed money just so he can repurpose someone else's work?

Now with the FASERIP stuff it seems silly to me. They wouldnt be able to stat current marvel charcters. Then publish it. So they would just be creating material that I could with the books myself. Just my opinion. As for the basic fantasy stuff. Hey more power to them. I have the old D&D books stashed somewhere. I would just use them. But for people who do not have it. It may be a good option. Its just another fantasy system. Like Dark Eye, Hackmaster, or Talislanta. Its not adding homebrew material onto an exisisting system. Which is the way I view the idea of OGL FASERIP.

Quote from: CalithenaI don't begrudge Sol vanity publishing his own D&D homebrew. Let a thousand flowers blossom. I'd like to publish my own, actually, though not enough to actually put the effort into doing it.

More or less - yeah. Sometimes you get the urge to crank out your "ideal" D&D, and since you have the OGL, you can do it legally. I did it, Solomoriah did it, Troll Lord Games did it (reasonably successfully, too!). It's a fun creative excercise, nothing more. IMHO, it isn't even problematic ethically because it is harmless. Harmless. Nobody is going to lose out on revenue - although maybe this accusation could be levelled at C&C, if you squint and look at it sideways (of course, C&C tends to pick up people who get burned out on d20, so I would even debate that point).

Frankly, grubman, I am puzzled by the rage you exhibit in this thread.

Quote from: grubmanI wouldn't say "getting all worked up over it".  The point of the discussion was in the title, Why would anyone play this instead of just playing Basic D&D?...the rest was just miscellaneous opinions unrelated to the actual thread topic.

Ease of access, Basic is no longer on sale, nobody loses revenue by the core of it being redone online, some people may enjoy playing it but not have easy access to second hand copies.

I'm not sure I get the problem, if it's not useful to you, don't download it.  If it's not useful to anyone, nobody will download it.

But I don't own Basic and if I wanted to play it (I don't especially) then this could be useful, and as I say nobody is losing revenue here as it is essentially abandonware.

I'm not sure I'm seeing a problem, it's clearly a project born of affection, nothing more than that.

Quote from: BalbinusEase of access, Basic is no longer on sale, nobody loses revenue by the core of it being redone online, some people may enjoy playing it but not have easy access to second hand copies.

I'm not sure I get the problem, if it's not useful to you, don't download it.  If it's not useful to anyone, nobody will download it.

But I don't own Basic and if I wanted to play it (I don't especially) then this could be useful, and as I say nobody is losing revenue here as it is essentially abandonware.

I'm not sure I'm seeing a problem, it's clearly a project born of affection, nothing more than that.

I agree, and I even d/led a copy. Also of note is that from what I can tell, Sol is not making a dime off it. You can download the game for free and IIRC, he's selling the book from Lulu at cost. So at the most Lulu's making a little bit, but the people responsible? Nothing.

Looking at it, it's dedicated to Gary Gygax, Dave Arneson, Tom Moldvay, David Cook and Steve Marsh, and the author is quite clear that he is adapting other people's work.

Seriously, he's not taking credit for other people's work here, I just don't see that.

It's also basically a d20ised version of the RC period rules, which is something somewhat new.

I'm really not getting the issue, there's no theft here, credit is given, this looks to me like some fans getting together and updating an old ruleset they love and then making it available for free for others who might use it.  That's a good thing, generous even, they're not profiting off someone else's work here.

It's not my thing, but there's no harm to it either that I can see.

Jesus fuck.  It's free.  What the hell is there to get worked up about?

Boy, all these comments about getting all worked up...I must be a terrible writer (expressor of my thoughts) or something.  It's just a casual conversation, I'm not on a crusade to crush BFRPG or anything and haven't lost a wink of sleep.  I think the entire post has been taken out of context.

Does the whole thing (BFRPG) leave a bad taste in my mouth?  Yes, nothing more, I was just wondering why anyone would play a game that is 95% something that is already owned (or owned and discarded already) by most role players.  Most people who would seek this out would be fans of Basic in some incarnation, and every version of basic is superior to this in writing and editing (fact, not a rant).  The icing on the cake is that the author has made it so no one can write/publish stuff for the system without meeting his criteria (which would probably be the only reason someone would seek this out in the first place), which seems counter productive and a little insulting since it isn't truely his work in the first place.

Just wanted to discuss it, that's all.

BFRPG is just another in a long line of D&D clones.  At least the author isn't trying to make any money off of it, so I certainly don't see any harm.  It's definitely not as bad as basing your whole company on it like Troll Lords does with Castles & Crusades.  

I've run a short campaign with BFRPG and have made some minor contributions to it.  I would consider running it again instead of Basic D&D simply because I can give the players free, legal copies of the rules.

It gave me a moment or two of nostalgia, but it's pretty worthless for me at the moment.  I think I'd choose this rules set if I had to make a decision between it and Basic D&D, which I guess is a compliment.  Since I won't be playing either, it's moot.

-O

Wow - I'm surprised anyone else actually knew about Basic Fantasy.  I hear about it all the time because the guys are locals and always talk about it in the local convention group.

I'm in the "meh" group, myself.  If I want a homebrew version of D&D, I'll write my own, thanks.

On a side note - some new guy who moved to the area looked at BF after being informed about it in the group.  He said "I don't know - it looks like a step backwards to me".  I don't think they appreciated the criticism.

The FASERIP thing is far more obnoxious, IMO.  For one thing, it's being done by Phil Reed - who I don't have anything good to say about; particularly after he acted like such an asshole over the whole Star Frontiers.com thing.  I find it hilarious that he was so high and mighty about copyrights then (even though he was wrong) and now he's ripping off WotC IP (and not even asking for permission).

But really, FASERIP is a far dumber project than BF anyways.  Heck, they've changed so much with rules it doesn't even resemble MSH anymore.  What's the point of ripping off a system if you don't really rip it off?  And who would want any material for FASERIP that wasn't related to Marvel comics material?

Quote from: grubmanThe icing on the cake is that the author has made it so no one can write/publish stuff for the system without meeting his criteria (which would probably be the only reason someone would seek this out in the first place), which seems counter productive and a little insulting since it isn't truely his work in the first place.

Just wanted to discuss it, that's all.

Hmm, I've read the product identity license, and the only thing that seems really restrictive to me is the "rated R" clause, but it doesn't bother me. What else about the license bothers you, 'cause I am curious.

Because it's more accessible. While Basic D&D isn't hard to find (it's available in PDF from RPGNow), if somebody doesn't have a credit card, it would simply be easier to download a freebie than jump through the hoops of purchasing PDFs via Money Order or check.

Quote from: grubmanBoy, all these comments about getting all worked up...I must be a terrible writer (expressor of my thoughts) or something.

If you don't want people thinking you're worked up, don't

• ask questions starting with such fiery phrases as "why the hell"
• say it "bothers you so much"
• use the word hate to describe your emotions on the subject
• insult people (unless you meant arrogant as a friendly term)

Hope this helps. :)

Quote from: JamesVHmm, I've read the product identity license, and the only thing that seems really restrictive to me is the "rated R" clause, but it doesn't bother me. What else about the license bothers you, 'cause I am curious.

How about this:

2. Further, the text of your work (as well as any maps or
artwork required for use of the work) must be entirely Open
Game Content;

You write an awesome adventure for BFRPG and either illustrate it or pay someone to illustrate it and...your entire work is open game content!  That means anyone can copy it word for word and do whatever they want with it.  Worse still, it means all your artwork is free for anyone to use for anything they want.

This should effectively make no one in their right mind interesting in producing a BFRP adventure...which makes the game useless, since, as I've already stated, you could just use the much more polished Basic D&D for anything else besides publishing adventures online (and you can even do that with little problem and the proper disclaimers if you don't plan on selling it.  In fact being able to sell a BFRPG product like you can with the OSRIC would be the only thing to make BFRPG worth the time IMHO.)

I think you're looking at this wrong, grubman.

I know you played D&D back in the day, when it was still a zany avenue for creativity instead of mindlessly slogging through fifty-page stat blocks and looking for high-level feat combos. When every group had their own house rules because they had to, and wanted to.

If you just look at Basic Fantasy as Sol using the OGL to give you his D&D house rules in print, it's all good. You'd play it because you were at Sol's table, and you might play something a little different at your table, and the two of you might borrow some tricks from each other, and the great oral tradition of D&D, the only real cultural practice of note this hobby has yet produced, would go on.

That's all it is. He is playing D&D, just like my friend who allowed penguin and alu-demon PCs was playing D&D. It's bigger than all of us. The OGL turns out to let us share that formally now, as opposed to the informal practice that held up for two decades strongly and still holds up today.

Quote from: grubmanHow about this:

2. Further, the text of your work (as well as any maps or
artwork required for use of the work) must be entirely Open
Game Content;

You write an awesome adventure for BFRPG and either illustrate it or pay someone to illustrate it and...your entire work is open game content!  That means anyone can copy it word for word and do whatever they want with it.  Worse still, it means all your artwork is free for anyone to use for anything they want.

This should effectively make no one in their right mind interesting in producing a BFRP adventure...which makes the game useless, since, as I've already stated, you could just use the much more polished Basic D&D for anything else besides publishing adventures online (and you can even do that with little problem and the proper disclaimers if you don't plan on selling it.  In fact being able to sell a BFRPG product like you can with the OSRIC would be the only thing to make BFRPG worth the time IMHO.)

That's standard procedutre for GPL software, and they've been doing things that way for what, 30 years?

I think that BF's license is more in the spirit of open content than Wizard's license, which was produced with entirely commercial considerations in mind.

I also think it's a good moral high ground to take when you're talking about sometihng that's essentially just a houseruled version of someone else's game.

So, umm, yeah.  Kinda joining the rest in wondering what the pissedness is all about.

Quote from: mhensleyIt's definitely not as bad as basing your whole company on it like Troll Lords does with Castles & Crusades.

You can't compare BFRPG to C&C.  C&C is a print product with international distribution and a full product line.  It has the support and contribution of Gary Gygax.  It is a refinement of AD&D 1st edition that is not only compatible with the OGL but also implements an entirely new system (the siege engine).

While everyone may not love it, it fills a large niche, and does it in the right way.  It doesn't simply take AD&D as is and rewrite it.

Quote from: J ArcaneThat's standard procedutre for GPL software, and they've been doing things that way for what, 30 years?

I think that BF's license is more in the spirit of open content than Wizard's license, which was produced with entirely commercial considerations in mind.

I also think it's a good moral high ground to take when you're talking about sometihng that's essentially just a houseruled version of someone else's game.

So, umm, yeah.  Kinda joining the rest in wondering what the pissedness is all about.

Um...you must not be a writer or an artist?

Quote from: grubmanUm...you must not be a writer or an artist?

So you're presuming to speak for the attitudes of all writers and artists now?

Are you familiar with Creative Commons?

Quote from: J ArcaneSo you're presuming to speak for the attitudes of all writers and artists now?

:rolleyes: nevermind

Quote from: J ArcaneAre you familiar with Creative Commons?

I am and, as a license, it's extremely vague and nebulous, effectively allowing the user to make it as closed or open as he or she wants. While the flexibility is nice for the individual offering the license, it also means that one can't claim the license is more about open content than the OGL is (which is much more specific when it comes to terms and conditions). That said, it is much more about satisfying the needs of the individual offering the license (by virtue of its undefined terms) than the OGL is.

Quote from: grubman*snip re: all open content*
This should effectively make no one in their right mind interesting in producing a BFRP adventure...which makes the game useless, since, as I've already stated, you could just use the much more polished Basic D&D for anything else besides publishing adventures online (and you can even do that with little problem and the proper disclaimers if you don't plan on selling it.  In fact being able to sell a BFRPG product like you can with the OSRIC would be the only thing to make BFRPG worth the time IMHO.)

I dig, and I guess it's an obstacle if you wanted to make a product for profit, but I gotta say that I don't think that's Sol's intent with the product. I think what Calithena's said is more in line. Even better let's take it straight from the horse's mouth:

Quote from: basicfantasy.orgWhat Does It Cost?

Nothing. You can download the PDF files or the original OpenDocument (i.e. OpenOffice.org) files from the downloads page at no charge. Or, you can purchase a print copy from my storefront at Lulu.com, where I have published the rules at my cost. That's right... I don't make a single penny of profit from the sale of the printed copies.

I'm a believer in sharing. Some have expressed the opinion that I'm a fool not to profit from these rules, or the supplements or modules; but I have a job already, and it pays my bills. I don't believe there's enough demand for this game to make it worth the effort of selling. But more than that, I'm committed to sharing. If I profit from the game, I enrich myself (cash) and a few who purchase (enjoyment). But I give it away, and I thus enrich many (myself, with a warm glow of generosity, and many others with the enjoyment of playing it).

If someone wants to grab a usually cheap copy of red-box D&D from ebay, that's cool. If not there's a slightly more familiar version (for the d20 crowd anyways) out now, that's free for the taking as a PDF, or even available in print for a nominal cost.

Regardless of one's opinions, I think it's a win-win.

Quote from: JamesVI dig, and I guess it's an obstacle if you wanted to make a product for profit.

It's also an obstacle if you won't want someone else to steal your writing or artwork for a totally unrelated product that you don't endorse, or for one they are making a profit off of.

But the topic is going off in a lot of directions unrelated to the original topic (which is fine), and I feel like it's making me look like a bit of a dweeb with some festering unfounded  hate for BFRPG.  IMHO It's simply an interesting situation that prompted the discussion, Why play a game that is simply an almost exact duplicate of a game that is already extremely accessible and more popular (how many millions of copies of Basic D&D are floating around out there?)?  I thought it was a bit strange, a few agree with me, several others don't.  Oh well, this has become one of those threads where the more time I try to express my opinions, the further I spiral away from what I was originally getting at.:deflated:

Quote from: jdrakehI am and, as a license, it's extremely vague and nebulous, effectively allowing the user to make it as closed or open as he or she wants. While the flexibility is nice for the individual offering the license, it also means that one can't claim the license is more about open content than the OGL is (which is much more specific when it comes to terms and conditions). That said, it is much more about satisfying the needs of the individual offering the license (by virtue of its undefined terms) than the OGL is.

My point is, there's plenty of people besides just Sol who have similar feelings on how they distribute their creative works and how or what economic gain they recieve from them.

Quote from: grubmanIt's also an obstacle if you won't want someone else to steal your writing or artwork for a totally unrelated product that you don't endorse, or for one they are making a profit off of.

But the topic is going off in a lot of directions unrelated to the original topic (which is fine), and I feel like it's making me look like a bit of a dweeb with some festering unfounded  hate for BFRPG.  IMHO It's simply an interesting situation that prompted the discussion, Why play a game that is simply an almost exact duplicate of a game that is already extremely accessible and more popular (how many millions of copies of Basic D&D are floating around out there?)?  I thought it was a bit strange, a few agree with me, several others don't.  Oh well, this has become one of those threads where the more time I try to express my opinions, the further I spiral away from what I was originally getting at.:deflated:

QuoteIt's also an obstacle if you won't want someone else to steal your writing or artwork for a totally unrelated product that you don't endorse, or for one they are making a profit off of.

Umm, no they couldn't.  Do all portions of your brain connect with each other?

You just got done complaining that you couldn't make money on the product, and now you're complaining that someone else is going to take yourr stuff and make money on the product, despite them all being under the same license.

You're not even making any sense at this point.  It's no wonder at all that people have taken you for irrational.

Quote from: grubmanIt doesn't simply take AD&D as is and rewrite it.

Bullshit.  C&C is just another game that's houseruled D&D.  It's probably around 90% unoriginal material.

Quote from: J ArcaneUmm, no they couldn't.  Do all portions of your brain connect with each other?

You just got done complaining that you couldn't make money on the product, and now you're complaining that someone else is going to take yourr stuff and make money on the product, despite them all being under the same license.

You're not even making any sense at this point.  It's no wonder at all that people have taken you for irrational.

I think you need to re-read what I've said.  I'm not "complaining" about anything, I'm simply pointing out facts about the way the OGL additions effect any works created using the DFRPG system.

It's not that I'm not making sense, it's that you aren't reading, and are putting words into my mouth.

Out of curiosity, are there any even semi-reliable sources for the number of copies of Basic D&D there ARE floating around out there? Are there millions?

Sorry, it's a tangent, but I'm intrigued.

- Q

In any case, I'm done with this thread, as I'm just going in circles.  If you want to count it as a loss for me, and win for you, go ahead.  I'm finding it more of a exercise in frustration than a interesting discussion.

Quote from: QuireOut of curiosity, are there any even semi-reliable sources for the number of copies of Basic D&D there ARE floating around out there? Are there millions?

Sorry, it's a tangent, but I'm intrigued.

- Q

There probably are several hundred thousands, if not millions. There was a period when even modules were printed in 100.000+ numbers.

Quote from: grubmanIn any case, I'm done with this thread, as I'm just going in circles.  If you want to count it as a loss for me, and win for you, go ahead.  I'm finding it more of a exercise in frustration than a interesting discussion.

Do you also storm home from the park with your ball if the other boys don't play nice with you?

- Q

Quote from: QuireDo you also storm home from the park with your ball if the other boys don't play nice with you?

- Q

And this is the reason I'm un-registering from the entire site.  I think the post said it all...but someone still has to come back with a smart ass comment.

Sure, having a site where you can speak your mind is fine...but a site where everyone comes looking for a fight, instead of a "mature" discussion, just isn't for me.

Judge me as you will, I'll live.

Quote from: grubmanAnd this is the reason I'm un-registering from the entire site.

Shit, I killed one!

- Q

Quote from: grubmanAnd this is the reason I'm un-registering from the entire site.  I think the post said it all...but someone still has to come back with a smart ass comment.

Oh well, see you somewhere else.

Man, I really thought grubman'd fit in here.

Guess I was wrong...

Quote from: QuireShit, I killed one!

- Q

Oh my God, he killed Grubman!  :eek:

You bastard!  :mad:

:(

Ah, the perils of equating "free speech" to "asshole license." :)

Fuckety fuck.

Yoiu're just angry because despite your wizardly goodness you still can't afford to upgrade to an anatomically correct model. :)

I usually like Grubman's posts and he's definitely gotten me to buy into a couple of games, but this was just an unnecessary attack on something that's doing no harm to anyone.  If you don't like it, don't play it.  Don't piss in someone else's fun.

Quote from: James McMurrayAh, the perils of equating "free speech" to "asshole license." :)

Yeah, I'm thinking of a sig right now.

Quote from: J ArcaneMy point is, there's plenty of people besides just Sol who have similar feelings on how they distribute their creative works and how or what economic gain they recieve from them.

Ah, well that I can get behind ;)

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Man, I really thought grubman'd fit in here.

Guess I was wrong...

I share your puzzled feelings. He sent me a PM before he departed saying that he was saddened that so many people he liked to converse with left RPGnet to post here (I would have pointed out that many of us were asked to leave, but as he's already un-registered himself, I guess that such a reply is pointless).

Quote from: jdrakehI share your puzzled feelings. He sent me a PM before he departed saying that he was saddened that so many people he liked to converse with left RPGnet to post here (I would have pointed out that many of us were asked to leave, but as he's already un-registered himself, I guess that such a reply is pointless).

:confused:
I just feel like I'm missing something here.

1. Grubman has had an axe to grind with BF lately, so he posts a rant.
2. Everyone else says "what's the big deal?"
3. Grubman repeatedly tries to argue his case.  No one else is convinced.
4. Seeing his not convincing anyone, Grubman says, "Screw you guys, I'm going home."
5. Somebody cracks a joke about him acting immature.
6. Grubman takes the joke as a personal insult (or possibly even an assault) and claims everyone is immature and attacking him here and now he's leaving for good.
7. Everyone else stands back slack-jawed and wide-eyed.

Did I leave any steps out?  Because I sure feel like I missed something between steps 3&4 and/or 5&6.

I mean, it's not the first time I've seen Grubman throw a fit over something he saw on the Internet and then get mad that no one agreed with him, but last time he didn't unregister himself from the site.

Quote from: jgantsBecause I sure feel like I missed something between steps 3&4 and/or 5&6.

You're not missing anything. Honestly, it seems that as the friendly atmosphere of TBP has eroded over the past few years, some posters have changed with it. Grubman may be one of them.

His posts at TBP seem to have been getting consistently more adversarial as time marches on. From personal experience, I know that flaming out and stomping off is often the dark place to which such paths lead.

The grubman of today is not the same guy that I regularly conversed with on RPGnet back in 2002/2003. Or at least he doesn't have the same disposition. I hold much the same opinion of RPGnet, of course.

Quote from: jdrakehYou're not missing anything other. Honestly, it seems that as the friendly atmosphere of TBP has eroded over the past few years, some posters have changed with it. Grubman may be one of them.

His posts at TBP seem to have been getting consistently more adversarial as time marches on. From personal experience, I know that flaming out and stomping off is often the dark place to which such paths lead.

The grubman of today is not the same guy that I regularly conversed with on RPGnet back in 2002/2003. Or at least he doesn't have the same disposition. I hold much the same opinion of RPGnet, of course.

Agreed.  And its TBP's own fault.  It's hard to stay a happy place when everyone constantly feels the mod boot on their necks.

It'd be a lot emotionally healthier of a place if people could air their grievances (to each other or to the site) instead of having to bottle them up or obfuscate them behind fancy language.  Or be able to speak without fear of getting banned for saying something that might be obscurely taken as a group attack.  And then there's the whole political aspect - where certain posters can get away with murder, and others get banned without even doing anything wrong on the site.

As for Grubman, hopefully he'll just take a little break, calm down, and rejoin us.

I hope grubman will eventually come back.  Personally, I think he just wanted to discuss, and came across as pissy when he didn't really intend to be.  

I mean, the tone of my Palladium topics is extremely caustic, but I'm always happy whenever anyone wants to discuss Palladium stuff.

Personally, I didn't see his posts as pissy.  He only got pissy after being probably unintentionally provoked by others.  I was looking at the threads and seeing James McMurray telling him he's posting wrongly.  Then I saw JArcane more or less call him a retard.  And Quire finished it off by calling him a baby.  Grubman is still in RPGnet defense mode, and that's exactly how those posts would be seen at the Purple Palace.

Quote from: jdrakehI share your puzzled feelings. He sent me a PM before he departed saying that he was saddened that so many people he liked to converse with left RPGnet to post here (I would have pointed out that many of us were asked to leave, but as he's already un-registered himself, I guess that such a reply is pointless).

I got that one, too.

Maybe I shoulda stepped in sooner, tried to cool off both sides.  He did come into this thread pretty hot, but I don't think it warranted hoppin' on him.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!I got that one, too.

Maybe I shoulda stepped in sooner, tried to cool off both sides.  He did come into this thread pretty hot, but I don't think it warranted hoppin' on him.

I suppose that I didn't realize how much TBP had soured him and thought that he'd be able to blow off a few negative posts here without feeling backed into a corner and forced to go on the offensive. Guess I was wrong about that :(

[Edit: As Gabriel notes, that kind of thing is part of daily life at TBP currently, but here it comes off as hypersensitivity.]

Quote from: jdrakehI suppose that I didn't realize how much TBP had soured him and thought that he'd be able to blow off a few negative posts here without feeling backed into a corner and forced to go on the offensive. Guess I was wrong about that :(

I just realized your little green dude isn't goofin' that pig in the hiney.

What the hell?
 Dude is on here for less than 60 posts and leaves because of one thread ?
 Over on the Big Purple & Pink I vaguely remember having an argument with him about something (GURPS likely)  - but its just the internet ...its not that big a deal.

 When referring to "Basic D&D" , do you guys mean the one from the 1980s  , or the current introductory box sets of the D20 version that WOTC has out there in stores ? (including my store)

- E.W.C.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!I just realized your little green dude isn't goofin' that pig in the hiney.

Yeah, he's riding it like a horse :) It's Grrr (the alien dog-bot) from Invader Zim, BTW.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!I just realized your little green dude isn't goofin' that pig in the hiney.

Wow, you're right.  Interesting.

I like grubman, it's a shame he's pulled out, one thing with unmoderated fora is that one has to learn either to pull out of threads that go south or to tell people to fuck off.

I tend to the latter, in part because people don't hold a grudge here by and large when you do.

Quote from: KoltarWhen referring to "Basic D&D" , do you guys mean the one from the 1980s  , or the current introductory box sets of the D20 version that WOTC has out there in stores ? (including my store)

The current edition is technically "The Basic Game" not "Basic Dungeons & Dragons", so I suspect that when most people say "Basic D&D" they're referring to the game that was marketed under that title -- although I've seen some people use the terms "Basic D&D" and "BD&D" to erroneously refer to Original D&D or OD&D (the little 1974 box set).

Quote from: BalbinusI tend to the latter, in part because people don't hold a grudge here by and large when you do.

Shut up, ya poop donut.  Get bent in the butt.

Hey!  I was looking through some old papers and I found an old thread you started on RPG.Net called "Perilous Pulp Posts"!  I liked it so much, I'd printed it out.  Neet, huh?

I'm'a e-mail grub, see if he wants to steam out a bit and try again.  You guys want me to e-mail grub, see if he wants to steam out a bit and try again?

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!I got that one, too.

Maybe I shoulda stepped in sooner, tried to cool off both sides.  He did come into this thread pretty hot, but I don't think it warranted hoppin' on him.

Maybe it's because I hang around RPGOpen more than most anyone else here, but I was more or less predicting this outcome.

I think all the bullshit at rpg.net's gotten to Grubman.  He used to be a lot more laid-back, but...  I dunno, the last six months or so he's been increasingly short-fused.

It didn't help that he came in here swinging.  Trying to be "one of the gang," probably, and blow off some steam.  Instead, all these folks smacked him upside the head and said, "What the fuck's wrong with you, man?"

He was bound to flame out like he did.

Would trying to play ref have worked?  I dunno.  But seeing as how he's been acting like a jumpy cockroach on an electrified floor lately...

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!I'm'a e-mail grub, see if he wants to steam out a bit and try again.  You guys want me to e-mail grub, see if he wants to steam out a bit and try again?

Go for it. I like the man and would enjoy his participation here. He just needs to work that Purple out of his veins ;)

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!I'm'a e-mail grub, see if he wants to steam out a bit and try again.  You guys want me to e-mail grub, see if he wants to steam out a bit and try again?

I wouldn't mind seeing him back but I'm afraid it'd just happen again.

I'm more interested in seeing him relax enough to be able to enjoy this place.  We're here to shoot the shit, not have Important Discussions where people leap on each others' cases like rabid chihuahuas at an enchilada festival.

At least, if you take it the former way instead of the latter, you'll be better off in the long run.

I'll zing him an e-mail when I'm not at work.  Grub's good people; I haven't been around RPG.Net for...uh...gee, 6 months now I think.  So I didn't seehim getting all whacked out on the modballs.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Shut up, ya poop donut.  Get bent in the butt.

Hey!  I was looking through some old papers and I found an old thread you started on RPG.Net called "Perilous Pulp Posts"!  I liked it so much, I'd printed it out.  Neet, huh?

I'm'a e-mail grub, see if he wants to steam out a bit and try again.  You guys want me to e-mail grub, see if he wants to steam out a bit and try again?

Cool thread title, go me.

I'll email grub in a bit, he probably needs more time, I really like him though so I hope he'll give it another go.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!I'll zing him an e-mail when I'm not at work.  Grub's good people; I haven't been around RPG.Net for...uh...gee, 6 months now I think.  So I didn't seehim getting all whacked out on the modballs.

I won't speculate as to cause for the effect.  I just noticed a trend.  Grubman always seemed the happy-go-lucky sort.  Recently he's been edgy and combative.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!I'll zing him an e-mail when I'm not at work.  Grub's good people; I haven't been around RPG.Net for...uh...gee, 6 months now I think.  So I didn't seehim getting all whacked out on the modballs.

 Less than 6 months - about a month ago I saw you and your pink tie make at least one post over there.

- E.W.C.

Quote from: GabrielI was looking at the threads and seeing James McMurray telling him he's posting wrongly.

I wasn't (intentionally) telling him he was posting wrongly. He seemed confused about people thinking he was upset. I tried to point out that using phrases like "why the hell" and "I hate it" tend to make people assume you're upset.

Quote from: KoltarWhen referring to "Basic D&D" , do you guys mean the one from the 1980s , or the current introductory box sets of the D20 version that WOTC has out there in stores ? (including my store)

The 80's version.

And before I forget:

Welcome to theRPGsite, where even the threads about Basic D&D ripoffs are about RPG.net! :D

Add me to the crowd hoping that grub gives even one more try. I mean the guy is a solid old school type, the threads here should in reality, suit him well.

If this was Grub's idea of an uncomfortably flamey thread, I wonder how he gets along everywhere else on the internets...

On rpg.net, when you get banned, a few people say, "We're sorry to see (them) go." but they seemed to be drowned out by all the people that pile on to say, "Haha! Got another one! See you in hell (person)!" The dude got pissed off here, unregistered, and nobody seemed to burn him for it, in particular. On the contrary, it's sad to see him take his ball and go home, and that's what was said.

Honestly, it seemed like an odd thing to pick a fight about. The Basic Game or Basic D&D... I guess you just play whichever one strikes your fantasy. If there's nothing holy in the goddamn dharma, there's doesn't seem to be anything holy in which D&D-ish thing you pick. To me, anyhow. Why play one over the other? Why not?

Quote from: Thanatos02On rpg.net, when you get banned, a few people say, "We're sorry to see (them) go." but they seemed to be drowned out by all the people that pile on to say, "Haha! Got another one! See you in hell (person)!"

I think that's due, in part, because of the ivory tower the mods put themselves in.  Questioning a mod decision is a bannable offense there, after all, because the sacred mods should never have to answer to the masses. :rolleyes:

Take a look at the recent banning of Zomben, for example, for daring to say that people should be able to tell off trolls.

Heck, even innocent questions get yelled at anymore.  One guy had a couple of questions about IP banning on public computers.  They answered then locked his first thread, he tried to start another one to ask a related (but different) question, and they locked that one and yelled at him.  It's absurd.

The one that really made me laugh, though, was where somebody got yelled at because their sig contained a quote that someone, somehow thought was homophobic.  She changed the sig, then asked why it was a problem.  Instead of answering her, they locked the thread because she'd already changed her sig so it was considered irrelevent.

Sorry, wrong thread.

Of course there are reasons for site differences. I don't have much doubt that the mods have something to do with that. On the whole, though, the discussion here was kind of heated, but I wouldn't say it'd burst into flames yet.

After all, nobodies mother's been called a cum-guzzling whore yet. Maybe my standards for flames are too high, though.

In particular, I'm not really convinced that copyright infringement is the issue with this game. Not because I'm for IP theft (I don't care one way or the other most times. I'm more sympathetic with game rights, if only because the margins are so low), but because so much has already been seriously ripped off the old editions of D&D that I figured if people really wanted to play it, they just would. It's not like it's too hard to find resources for fairly cheap, as far as games go.

Since it's not breaking any laws, especially, and no money is being made, I can't imagine a reason to get in a twist about it. Did anyone point out the differences between the two games yet? (Or have easily linked info?)

Quote from: Thanatos02Honestly, it seemed like an odd thing to pick a fight about. The Basic Game or Basic D&D... I guess you just play whichever one strikes your fantasy. If there's nothing holy in the goddamn dharma, there's doesn't seem to be anything holy in which D&D-ish thing you pick. To me, anyhow. Why play one over the other? Why not?

I think it's partly to do with the Grubster wanting to publish some gaming stuff and being unsure for what system. IIRC he likes Basic D&D best, but there's no OGL for that, so BFRPG is second best, but to his mind the license is too restrictive.

He's exploded in my face in the past--he can be a bit erratic--but I like him. So yes, Doc R, one more vote for the email.

I share the dislike for BFRPG on the grounds of being restricted to 20 levels. Due to this, one cannot just use old material/modules.

Gimme 36 Levels!

Quote from: SettembriniI share the dislike for BFRPG on the grounds of being restricted to 20 levels. Due to this, one cannot just use old material/modules.

Gimme 36 Levels!

Okay, you can have them.  Feel free to send me a writeup and I'll post it on the Basic Fantasy RPG website.

No, seriously.  Basic Fantasy RPG is a collaborative project.  It is not about making money.  It's about playing the game, and sharing the coolness that you have created with others (if you wish).

I'm going to refrain from commenting on anything said here, save for one thing... the restrictions on the license.  The restrictions limit your ability to use the NAME and/or LOGO of the project.  The rest of the work is available as Open Game Content.  THE WHOLE THING.  (Well, okay, the artwork isn't, save for a couple of maps, but all the text is OGC except for the aforementioned Product Identity.)

So you can use/recycle whatever you want, and make a profit if you like (and can get anyone to pay)... you just can't use my very limited amount of Product Identity if you don't abide by the Product Identity license.

Quote from: SettembriniI share the dislike for BFRPG on the grounds of being restricted to 20 levels. Due to this, one cannot just use old material/modules.

Gimme 36 Levels!

My understanding is that BFRPG emulates the earlier Moldavy/Cook B/X (1-14) Basic D&D not Mentzer BECMI/RC (1-36) Basic D&D. The books that came out for B/X (or for Holmes Basic for that matter) were reissued for BECMI with little to no change.

While I'm starting to really dig the idea of a comprehensive high level campaign with full rules support that CMI has I don't think there was all that much produced for those levels, esp. for MI.

QuoteI don't think there was all that much produced for those levels, esp. for MI.

I beg to differ. The whole Mystara Meta-Campaign is bound to end up in the highlevels. [http://www.mbertenshaw.plus.com/Mark/RPG/master.html
and keep in mind WOTI!]
And, as my Dragonsfoot lore check tells me, they[Mentzer] did adjust the bonus progression for 36 levels.
And that´s why I don´t dig BFRPG: the levels are not BECMI D&D levels, starting as early as 10th level.

I appreciate the effort of the maker, but i just can´t use it, though I´d really like to. It was so close, that´s why I´m unhappy with it.

@Solo: How´s that supposed to work? It´d screw your whole level progression. There´d be need for a paralell 36level edition, just confusing people, no?

Quote from: Settembrini@Solo: How´s that supposed to work? It´d screw your whole level progression. There´d be need for a paralell 36level edition, just confusing people, no?

You'd have to create new tables for all four classes... thief abilities, saving throws, attack bonuses, and spell progressions.  You'd need additional higher-level spells, but there is at least one person working on filling those in.

There would be no confusion; alternate rules are published as articles on the Basic Fantasy website, then eventually will be collected (when enough pages of articles are available) as the Olde Dungeoneer's Almanack.  For free in PDF, at cost on Lulu.com... eventually.  Not enough pages of "finished" articles yet.

BX was my "coverage target;"  I wanted to ensure that older materials in the Basic and Expert product lines could be adapted very simply.  Frankly, CMI wasn't part of my target... I don't even own those rules, and never did.  But again, Basic Fantasy RPG is a collaborative project.

QuoteFrankly, CMI wasn't part of my target... I don't even own those rules, and never did. But again, Basic Fantasy RPG is a collaborative project.

Which is totally cool with me. But I´m a BECMI person ;).

Again, Kudos to your efforts!
Must have been quite some work.

Quote from: SolomoriahThere would be no confusion; alternate rules are published as articles on the Basic Fantasy website, then eventually will be collected (when enough pages of articles are available) as the Olde Dungeoneer's Almanack.  For free in PDF, at cost on Lulu.com... eventually.  Not enough pages of "finished" articles yet.

Very cool. Here's hoping that interest/output doesn't wane before this happens.